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ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 09:49 AM
Interesting bit on the CNN.com article on the movie (apparently it isn't that good):

http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/17/da.vinci/index.html


Protests were brewing in several countries.

In India, the government Tuesday put a temporary hold on the movie's release because of complaints, The Associated Press reported.

In South Korea, which has 13 million Protestants and 4.6 million Roman Catholics, a court ruled Tuesday that a Christian group's request for an injunction to block screenings lacked merit. The Christian Council of Korea, an umbrella group of 63 South Korean Protestant denominations, said it respected the ruling but would lead a boycott of the movie, which it said defiles the sanctity of Jesus Christ and distorts facts, AP reported.

In mostly Hindu India, which is also home to 18 million Roman Catholics, Joseph Dias, head of the Catholic Secular Forum, began a hunger strike in downtown Mumbai and said other people were joining him.

"We want the movie to be banned," he said.

The film had been set for release in India on Friday and had already been cleared by the national censor board. But Information and Broadcasting Minister Priya Ranjan Dasmunshi said he put a temporary hold on the movie after receiving more than 200 complaints.

In Thailand, Columbia Pictures has appealed a ruling by government censors to cut the final 10 minutes of "The Da Vinci Code," police said, after Thai church leaders complained the film's content was insulting.

Philippine censors approved an adult rating for the movie but stopped short of rating it "X" because "it does not constitute a clear, express or direct attack on the Catholic church or religion" and does not libel or defame any person.

The movie-review panel's chairwoman, Marissa Laguardia, told The Associated Press that the movie would be a "test of faith" for many people in the predominantly Roman Catholic Philippines.

The National Council of Churches in Singapore, which also had requested a ban, planned lectures to refute aspects of the film and the book on which it is based. The censorship board gave the movie an NC16 rating, barring viewers under 16, arguing that "only a mature audience will be able to discern and differentiate between fact and fiction."

Also, while not planning a protest or boycott, members of the National Organization for Albinism and Hypopigmentation expressed unhappiness with the film's heavy, a monk-assassin, being an albino, as described in the book.

Michael McGowan, an albino who heads the organization, said "The Da Vinci Code" will be the 68th movie since 1960 to feature an evil albino. He said the group aims to use the movie's popularity to raise awareness about the realities of albinism. People with albinism have little or no pigmentation in their skin, eyes and hair.

After making its print debut in 2003, "The DaVinci Code" has since sold more than 60.5 million copies and has been translated into 44 languages.

I mean this is a work of FICTION, which the author fully admits. Is there really any reason for such protests over it? Does the Church really want people who will change their beliefs based on what a Hollywood movie tells them?

IIRC, I don't think the Pope has even acknowledged the movie, which is probably the best thing to do. Otherwise, this type of publicity makes people even more interested in the subject matter.

Samdari
05-17-2006, 09:54 AM
I mean this is a work of FICTION, which the author fully admits. Is there really any reason for such protests over it?

On the opening pages, right before the fiction starts, Brown claims that the underlying research (i.e. that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children) is factual. For him to claim "its just a work of fiction" now is cowardly, IMO.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 09:58 AM
Does he say it is factual or based on fact?

Honolulu_Blue
05-17-2006, 10:00 AM
Interesting bit on the CNN.com article on the movie (apparently it isn't that good).

Given the source material, this shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.

On similar lines, this book has been around for years. It's been the best, or at least one of the best, selling books for years. How come there were never any protests before the movie? I never really heard any kind of complaints, protests, or anything about the book.

Noop
05-17-2006, 10:04 AM
If your beliefs can not stand against a movie then I suggest you get a new system of belief.

Crapshoot
05-17-2006, 10:05 AM
Religion gets a little too much sway in Indian affairs - but the problem of holding a country which is a genuine "melting pot" and with various constituiences means that the authorities resort to trying to please everyone.

BrianD
05-17-2006, 10:06 AM
Given the source material, this shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.

On similar lines, this book has been around for years. It's been the best, or at least one of the best, selling books for years. How come there were never any protests before the movie? I never really heard any kind of complaints, protests, or anything about the book.

Various people and groups have been denouncing the book and its message for a few years now. There were protests about the book being for sale in different countries, but they weren't as big or as publicized as the recent protests.

The book does protray itself as being factual and it is a decent story even if the writing itself is fairly immature.

I think an interesting question from all of this is why the story became so popular. Are there that many people fed up with religion that this story speaks to them? Do people just like controversy? Is it the fact that people get to "learn" something while they read a fun story? Is this another case of people loving a good conspiracy?

WSUCougar
05-17-2006, 10:06 AM
On similar lines, this book has been around for years. It's been the best, or at least one of the best, selling books for years. How come there were never any protests before the movie? I never really heard any kind of complaints, protests, or anything about the book.
Actually, the book generated a great deal of controversy.

Samdari
05-17-2006, 10:07 AM
Does he say it is factual or based on fact?

I'll have to look at the exact wording, but before all of the three books I have read, he has a page saying that the characters and events in the book are fiction, but he certainly implies that the discoveries they make are completely factual. Lets put it this way - he wants you to believe while reading the book that Jesus having married and had children is factual, not fiction, and IIRC, not even simply a possible alternative history.

Luckily, I had read the other two books first, and knew his claims of underlying science and history being completely true were complete crap.

Honolulu_Blue
05-17-2006, 10:07 AM
Actually, the book generated a great deal of controversy.

Must've missed that. Good on me.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 10:14 AM
I think an interesting question from all of this is why the story became so popular. Are there that many people fed up with religion that this story speaks to them? Do people just like controversy? Is it the fact that people get to "learn" something while they read a fun story? Is this another case of people loving a good conspiracy?

I think it is part that people love conspiracies, or at least novels on conspiracies. They like to unravel the mystery. They like to read about the Illuminati or Freemasons.

Secondly, this is a very intriguing conspiracy. And I do think that people have such a low opinion of the Catholic Church these days that something like this can be contemplated as somewhat plausible that the Church would try to hide something like this.

Also the basic premise (Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had a kid) is somewhat plausible in itself. But the results of such events would be incredibly powerful and intriguing (ie, does the daugher of God's son get powers?).

Anthony
05-17-2006, 10:24 AM
the book. religion. the funny thing is it's all fiction.

lcjjdnh
05-17-2006, 10:27 AM
Interesting story in this week's New Yorker about Sony trying to deal with the controversey and even co-opting some of it for a website it created:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060522fa_fact

moriarty
05-17-2006, 10:32 AM
One thing that's tried and true in Hollywood: Controversy = Sales.

If the church and everyone else really wanted this to make as little splash as possible, they would just laugh it off as harmless fiction and use it as an opportunity to present their own version of the 'facts'. Creating a big storm about it does nothing more but increase awareness and ensure more folks see the film.

Or if they were really ingenious, they would just buy off the top movie reviewers to make sure it received really lousy ratings and helped keep people away.

sachmo71
05-17-2006, 10:41 AM
the book. religion. the funny thing is it's all fiction.


based on fact.

Raiders Army
05-17-2006, 10:45 AM
Or if they were really ingenious, they would just buy off the top movie reviewers to make sure it received really lousy ratings and helped keep people away.
Maybe they already did this. :)

Edit: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12822855/

CANNES, France - “The Da Vinci Code” drew lukewarm praise, shrugs of indifference, some jeering laughter and a few derisive jabs Tuesday from arguably the world’s toughest movie crowd: critics at the Cannes Film Festival.

The year’s most anticipated movie, “The Da Vinci Code” was a generally faithful adaptation of Dan Brown’s monster best seller, spinning a murder thriller that stems from a cover-up of secrets about Christianity’s roots.

While readers worldwide devoured the novel, reaction from Cannes critics ranged from mild endorsement of its potboiler suspense to groans of ridicule over its heavy melodrama.

“It’s a movie about whether the greatest story ever told is true or not, and it’s not the greatest movie ever screened, is it?” said Baz Bamigboye, a film columnist for London’s Daily Mail. “As a thriller, well,” he continued, shrugging.

“Maybe the next day I’ll forget about it,” said Igor Soukmanov of Unistar Radio in Belarus. “But today for two hours it was good entertainment. ... As a Hollywood movie, it’s a very nice picture.”

Critics got their first look at “The Da Vinci Code” a day before its world premiere at Cannes on Wednesday, when it also debuts at theaters in France and some other countries. The film opens worldwide over the following two days, including the United States on Friday.

Directed by Ron Howard, the movie stars Tom Hanks and Audrey Tautou as strangers hurled together on a frantic quest for the Holy Grail after a series of murders is committed.

The filmmakers add some twists and variations here and there, but the general thrust of the novel remains intact, including its theory that Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene were married and had a child, which has prompted denouncements from many Christians.

The Cannes audience clearly grew restless as the movie dragged on to two and a half hours and spun a long sequence of anticlimactic revelations.

“I kept thinking of the Energizer Bunny, because it kept going and going and going, and not in a good way,” said James Rocchi, a film critic for CBS 5 television in San Francisco and the online outlet Cinematical. “Ron Howard makes handsome films. He doesn’t make bad ones, but he doesn’t make great ones.”

One especially melodramatic line uttered by Hanks drew prolonged laughter and some catcalls, and the audience continued to titter for much of the film’s remainder.

Some people walked out during the movie’s closing minutes, though there were fewer departures than many Cannes movies provoke among harsh critics. When the credits rolled, there were a few whistles and hisses, and there was none of the scattered applause even bad movies sometimes receive at Cannes.

Critics singled out co-star Ian McKellen, playing a wry Grail enthusiast who joins the search, as the movie’s highlight, injecting hearty humor and delivering the most nuanced performance. Paul Bettany added a seething mix of tragic pathos and destructive zealousness as a monk assassin who carries out the slayings.

Bamigboye said all the actors were solid, but enthusiastically added, “I’ve got to tell you, Ian McKellen steals it. He slices all the crap away.”

Coder
05-17-2006, 10:49 AM
I think the movie will do very well.. the book did amazingly well despite being shot down by critics.. I doubt the movie will be any different.

st.cronin
05-17-2006, 10:58 AM
Dan Brown is an idiot, with a warped sense of why people are drawn to Jesus. His claims are, in fact, offensive. But you know what? You don't see anybody rioting and setting fire to Sony's studios.

chinaski
05-17-2006, 11:04 AM
would be nice if these people actually used their time to help the needy, instead of protesting a fictional story.

sovereignstar
05-17-2006, 11:07 AM
would be nice if these people actually used their time to help the needy, instead of protesting a fictional story.

Sounds like they just need someone to lead them.

chinaski
05-17-2006, 11:07 AM
On the opening pages, right before the fiction starts, Brown claims that the underlying research (i.e. that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children) is factual. For him to claim "its just a work of fiction" now is cowardly, IMO.

thats some twisted logic. hes setting up the story. Hes said time and time again this is a fictional story. long before it was a hit, and long after it sold a trillion copies. the book is sold as a fiction. what more do you need?

Solecismic
05-17-2006, 11:08 AM
I would hope that those who are offended by the movie's premise would see it in their hearts to forgive those who caused offense.

st.cronin
05-17-2006, 11:09 AM
would be nice if these people actually used their time to help the needy, instead of protesting a fictional story.

Sure, ok, they're totally out of line objecting to vicious propaganda being pushed all over the world slandering their belief system - they should just ignore it and go work in the soup kitchen. I totally agree.:rolleyes:

Coder
05-17-2006, 11:12 AM
Sure, ok, they're totally out of line objecting to vicious propaganda being pushed all over the world slandering their belief system - they should just ignore it and go work in the soup kitchen. I totally agree.:rolleyes:

Vicious propaganda?

BrianD
05-17-2006, 11:12 AM
thats some twisted logic. hes setting up the story. Hes said time and time again this is a fictional story. long before it was a hit, and long after it sold a trillion copies. the book is sold as a fiction. what more do you need?

I disagree. It is positioned as a fictional story build around a bunch of research and back-story that is fact. Sort of like Titanic. Jack and Rose were fiction, but all the events surroundnig them were not.

scooper
05-17-2006, 11:12 AM
would be nice if these people actually used their time to help the needy, instead of protesting a fictional story.

And you know they are not? Not every protester is some trust fund 20-something who can travel the country listening to Phish and do nothing to protest and eschew bathing.

I work for a church-based organization whose sole purpose is to help the needy. Some of the people I've been in contact with have voiced concerns about this book or other issues. It has never hurt their efforts.

chinaski
05-17-2006, 11:14 AM
Sure, ok, they're totally out of line objecting to vicious propaganda being pushed all over the world slandering their belief system - they should just ignore it and go work in the soup kitchen. I totally agree.:rolleyes:

it cracks me up, people get so worked up over cartoons.

st.cronin
05-17-2006, 11:14 AM
Vicious propaganda?

If you don't think the book is "vicious propaganda" you have either not read it or are not familiar with Christianity.

Coder
05-17-2006, 11:17 AM
If you don't think the book is "vicious propaganda" you have either not read it or are not familiar with Christianity.

I've read the book and I've studied christianity to a certain extent. I have a hard time seeing the book as vicious propaganda. For what it's worth, it's the word VICIOUS, I was surprised about.

I just don't see what's vicious about saying Jesus might have had a relationship with a woman who became pregnant with a child.... If I were a believing christian I wouldn't be very offended by this, nor would I call it a vicious attack on my beliefs.

To me, the books was a decent thriller with a fun "intellectual" twist rather than some stereotypical evil mastermind trying to blow up the world or whatever. Not a fantastic thriller, but entertaining none the less.

moriarty
05-17-2006, 11:21 AM
If you don't think the book is "vicious propaganda" you have either not read it or are not familiar with Christianity.

Well, if you're a member of the Opeis Dei (or whatever) then I guess I could consider it viscious.

chinaski
05-17-2006, 11:22 AM
And you know they are not? Not every protester is some trust fund 20-something who can travel the country listening to Phish and do nothing to protest and eschew bathing.

I work for a church-based organization whose sole purpose is to help the needy. Some of the people I've been in contact with have voiced concerns about this book or other issues. It has never hurt their efforts.
Anyone whos out protesting a MOVIE is certainly wasting their time. time that could be used to help people. why not organize nationwide volunteer drives, in name of protest of the movie? Where was the protests when a movie had priests molesting and beating kids? Sleepers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117665/) anyone?

Good job twisting what i said "It never hurt their efforts" - ? wtf, over.

st.cronin
05-17-2006, 11:23 AM
I just don't see what's vicious about saying Jesus might have had a relationship with a woman who became pregnant with a child.... If I were a believing christian I wouldn't be very offended by this, nor would I call it a vicious attack on my beliefs.

To me, the books was a decent thriller with a fun "intellectual" twist rather than some stereotypical evil mastermind trying to blow up the world or whatever. Not a fantastic thriller, but entertaining none the less.

Nobody I know really cares about the woman/child thing. It's the assertion that the Church never believed in Christ's divinity, but asserted it years after the fact for political/power reasons that is offensive. That is vicious propaganda, and untrue as well - that the entire belief system is predicated on a lie.

condors
05-17-2006, 11:26 AM
If you don't think the book is "vicious propaganda" you have either not read it or are not familiar with Christianity.

I have read the book and i am Catholic. I don't consider it "vicious propaganda". Its a story of fiction. Do you consider books of different beliefs "vicious propaganda" espcially if they claim to be fact?

scooter
05-17-2006, 11:26 AM
On the opening pages, right before the fiction starts, Brown claims that the underlying research (i.e. that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children) is factual. For him to claim "its just a work of fiction" now is cowardly, IMO.

This is actually what the book says in the opening:

Fact:

The Priory of Sion - a European secret society founded in 1099 - is a real organization. In 1975 Paris's Bibliotheque Nationale discovered parchments known as Le Dossiers Secrets, identifying numerous memebers of the Priory of Sion, including Sir Isaac Newton, Botticelli, Victor Hugo, and Leonardo da Vinci.

The Vatican prelature known as Opus Dei is a deeply devout Catholic sect that has been the topic of recent controversy due to reports of brain-washing, coercion, and a dangerous practice known as "corporal mortification." Opus Dei has just completed construction of a $47 million National Headquarters at 243 Lexington Avenue in New York City.

All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals in this novel are accurate.

WSUCougar
05-17-2006, 11:29 AM
I would hope that those who are offended by the movie's premise would see it in their hearts to forgive those who caused offense.
touché

st.cronin
05-17-2006, 11:30 AM
I have read the book and i am Catholic. I don't consider it "vicious propaganda". Its a story of fiction. Do you consider books of different beliefs "vicious propaganda" espcially if they claim to be fact?

The vicious propaganda comes in where the author asserts the historical framework as factual - if you see that as a transparent marketing ploy, fine. I suspect most people don't see it that way. Despite the language I'm using, I really could care less about this book/movie. In the end, it is just a book/movie. There are definitely more important things to get riled up about. See my first post in the thread.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 11:32 AM
This is actually what the book says in the opening:

Fact:

The Priory of Sion - a European secret society founded in 1099 - is a real organization. In 1975 Paris's Bibliotheque Nationale discovered parchments known as Le Dossiers Secrets, identifying numerous memebers of the Priory of Sion, including Sir Isaac Newton, Botticelli, Victor Hugo, and Leonardo da Vinci.

The Vatican prelature known as Opus Dei is a deeply devout Catholic sect that has been the topic of recent controversy due to reports of brain-washing, coercion, and a dangerous practice known as "corporal mortification." Opus Dei has just completed construction of a $47 million National Headquarters at 243 Lexington Avenue in New York City.

All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals in this novel are accurate.


Interesting statement to open the book with - especially when so much of it is very easily proven that all descriptions of artwork, architecture etc are not accurate. Brown gets all kinds of things wrong such as sizes, dates, materials for artwork and architecture not to mention the religious history. Also kind of hard for him to claim the book as fiction when the very first thing onto the page is the above.

QuikSand
05-17-2006, 11:32 AM
I thought the book was indeed pretty vicious, personally. And I also understand that "fiction" can indeed be a way to make a political point about a real world issue or government.

moriarty
05-17-2006, 11:34 AM
The vicious propaganda comes in where the author asserts the historical framework as factual - if you see that as a transparent marketing ploy, fine. I suspect most people don't see it that way. Despite the language I'm using, I really could care less about this book/movie. In the end, it is just a book/movie. There are definitely more important things to get riled up about. See my first post in the thread.

Um, read two posts above your post, and tell me where the author asserts the historical framework (particularly the parts you mentioned previously) are fact.

Is it possibly misleading ... perhaps.

scooper
05-17-2006, 11:35 AM
Anyone whos out protesting a MOVIE is certainly wasting their time. time that could be used to help people. why not organize nationwide volunteer drives, in name of protest of the movie? Where was the protests when a movie had priests molesting and beating kids? Sleepers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117665/) anyone?

Good job twisting what i said "It never hurt their efforts" - ? wtf, over.

No, it didn't hurt their efforts. My point is, that some of the people protesting this movie DO help the needy at other times. Are they expected to do it 24/7 365 days of the year? Maybe instead of complaining about the protesters, you should go out help the needy in support of DVC. What a stupid idea-in order to get a message out, you have to do something positive for someone else.

Charity should be charity for the sake of charity, not for the sake of getting attention.

As for the sleepers reference. There have been a lot of Catholics upset about the molestation/abuse scandals. And many of them have protested. Not the movie, but the leadership and accused themselves. The protests (as they should be) have been large and heated. I'm not sure what that has to do with your point.

Klinglerware
05-17-2006, 11:35 AM
Interesting statement to open the book with - especially when so much of it is very easily proven that all descriptions of artwork, architecture etc are not accurate. Brown gets all kinds of things wrong such as sizes, dates, materials for artwork and architecture. Also kind of hard for him to claim the book as fiction when the very first thing onto the page is the above.

From the news reports I've seen, I get the impression that he claims that the book is fiction when criticized by the authors he is sourcing his research from, but claims that it is based on fact when criticized by the religious authorities.

condors
05-17-2006, 11:36 AM
well i guess i don't take the author serious enough to find it offensive, i thought it was a good story though

scooter
05-17-2006, 11:36 AM
Also kind of hard for him to claim the book as fiction when the very first thing onto the page is the above.

I don't necessarily think so. Tom Clancy's novels are filled with military hardware that actually exist, but they are definitely fictional works. Dan Brown is just saying that certain elements of the book are factual - he then weaves the story around those facts. That doesn't make it any less a work of fiction though.

Joe Canadian
05-17-2006, 11:36 AM
Interesting statement to open the book with - especially when so much of it is very easily proven that all descriptions of artwork, architecture etc are not accurate. Brown gets all kinds of things wrong such as sizes, dates, materials for artwork and architecture not to mention the religious history. Also kind of hard for him to claim the book as fiction when the very first thing onto the page is the above.

Well the book is fiction... the story that occurs within it is a fictional story. There are supposed facts in it of course, but that occurs in the majority of fictional novels.

moriarty
05-17-2006, 11:39 AM
From the news reports I've seen, I get the impression that he claims that the book is fiction when criticized by the authors he is sourcing his research from, but claims that it is based on fact when criticized by the religious authorities.

I've actually never heard him claim the history part is fact, but I retract my earlier comments if he did make this claim.

Most of the religious stuff in his book comes straight out of Holy Blood, Holy Grail which I believe was released as a non-fiction book. However, that book HBHG hardly goes down as a in depth piece of detective journalism.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 11:47 AM
Well the book is fiction... the story that occurs within it is a fictional story. There are supposed facts in it of course, but that occurs in the majority of fictional novels.

Brown doesn't say there are supposed facts within the framework of a fictional story. His words are right there on the page

Fact: All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals in this novel are accurate.

He's claiming that everything in his book in regards to descriptions of artwork - eg that it is Mary seated at Jesus' right hand in the painting of the Last Supper and that nuns commissioned Leonardo to paint the Virgin on the Rocks yet the painting had to be redone because it contained depictions the church wanted covered up - is FACT. How can you say that ALL descriptions are accurate and have anything fictional regarding those things? Brown can't even get the sizes of the paintings of the Virgin on the Rocks correct and yet he claims that all descriptions of artwork are accurate.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 11:53 AM
BTW, just for the record I think its pointless to protest the movie. All it does is call more attention to it and if people are having their faith swayed by the movie then they already have that seed of doubt planted by reading the book. Movies and books can be powerful in persuading people or at least creating that shadow of doubt and that's why this is a big deal especially to Catholics but protesting it isn't the answer. If you want to protest, do it with your wallet. Don't see the movie or go see something else the weekend it opens so that another movie can open higher than it.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 11:54 AM
Brown doesn't say there are supposed facts within the framework of a fictional story. His words are right there on the page

Fact: All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals in this novel are accurate.

He's claiming that everything in his book in regards to descriptions of artwork - eg that it is Mary seated at Jesus' right hand in the painting of the Last Supper and that nuns commissioned Leonardo to paint the Virgin on the Rocks yet the painting had to be redone because it contained depictions the church wanted covered up - is FACT. How can you say that ALL descriptions are accurate and have anything fictional regarding those things? Brown can't even get the sizes of the paintings of the Virgin on the Rocks correct and yet he claims that all descriptions of artwork are accurate.

I think that's a bit of streach. He said as DESCRIPTIONS of artwork, not interpretations of artwork. He's trying to say "The Last Supper" is a real work of art.

molson
05-17-2006, 12:01 PM
Dan Brown is an idiot, with a warped sense of why people are drawn to Jesus. His claims are, in fact, offensive. But you know what? You don't see anybody rioting and setting fire to Sony's studios.

He didn't come up with any of of the ideas in this book - all of them have been around forever. He simply made these theories accessible to the general public, and threw in a few fictionalized characters. It was brilliant - he made millions doing something anyone could have done.

Solecismic
05-17-2006, 12:09 PM
He didn't come up with any of of the ideas in this book - all of them have been around forever. He simply make these theories accessible to the general public, and threw in a few fictionalized characters. It was brilliant - he made millions doing something anyone could have done.

He wrote a page-turner. Ultimately, nothing in the book (unless it causes great offense) is all that memorable. It's not outstanding from a literary perspective. It's not even fun from a research what-if perspective, like Michael Crichton's work. The romance is stale and hackneyed and the action-adventure is improbable.

But page-turners sell, and the "naughty" aspect of the theme has won him considerable notoriety. I thought the book was okay, in that it kept me entertained while I was reading it. It was a bit short in the book-club department, in that it provided very little interesting discussion between my wife and I. We have more fun arguing about Taylor on American Idol, in comparison.

I won't see the movie. Then again, I haven't been to a movie since 1992.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 12:16 PM
I think that's a bit of streach. He said as DESCRIPTIONS of artwork, not interpretations of artwork. He's trying to say "The Last Supper" is a real work of art.

Brown is not laying these things out in the book as interpretations of artwork.

He is claiming things like the Mona Lisa is androgynous and that Leonardo named it the Mona Lisa as a clever anagram to represent the union of male and female. Leonardo didn't even name the painting. He is also claiming that the person to the right of Jesus is Magdalene and not John. He makes the claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls included lost gospels and they did no such thing. There are literally hundreds of inaccuracies and half-truths in the book even down to simple things that can be easily verified like the height of a painting.

Yes, these claims are being made through the characters in the book but none of them are being presented as interpretations otherwise why include the statement that all descriptions of artwork, documents etc are accurate? Why not say that this is a work of fiction and everything portrayed is how the characters in the book assume them to be or interpret them to be? Why say anything about accuracy at all? Brown is the one who comes right out of the gate about how all of this is accurate and I think that statement makes the entire book fair game to be pointed out for its numerous inaccuracies.

He's not trying to say the Last Supper is a real work of art - the purpose of his story is to show that Mary Magdalene is the Holy Grail and that she was Jesus wife and they had a child together not to say that the Last Supper painting exists.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 12:23 PM
Why say anything about accuracy at all?

Because I'm sure some people will say oh, you just made X up, when there may actually be such a document, or oh, Opus Dei doesn't put a 'barbed wire thing' on their leg, when they do. He wants people to know that not everything in fictionalized and there are documents and artwork in the book that actually do exist in the real world.

That's what the statement sounded like to me. When I read the post that says Brown says all this is fact and then I saw that sentance in the excerpt on his own website, I thought there must be something else, but that statement really doesn't make me think that he's actually saying "The Last Supper" has Mary in it and that's a fact.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 12:33 PM
Because I'm sure some people will say oh, you just made X up

Well isn't that what a work of fiction is? When an author writes a book of fiction about the flying spaghetti monster attacking a trout pond I'm assuming he made stuff up even if he calls the trout pond Lake Michigan.

He wants people to know that not everything in fictionalized and there are documents and artwork in the book that actually do exist in the real world.

People don't know the Mona Lisa and Last Supper are real paintings? I highly doubt that Brown sat around and just innocently decided to write a book which claims that Jesus was not considered to be divine until a vote was taken at Nicene and that Jesus actually was married to Magdalene and fathered a child through her.

I think Brown made that intial statement on purpose to get the reader in the state of mind that what he or she is about to read is truth or even that its a very plausible conspiracy theory because of factual events a,b,c,d.... Without that statement I think its much easier to simply dismiss the events as a reader as being just some wild story Brown contrived but by having things that he claims as facts (yet are wildly inaccurate on the whole) he creates an aura to make the reader lend credence to his work of fiction.

Neon_Chaos
05-17-2006, 12:35 PM
Philippine censors approved an adult rating for the movie but stopped short of rating it "X" because "it does not constitute a clear, express or direct attack on the Catholic church or religion" and does not libel or defame any person.

The movie-review panel's chairwoman, Marissa Laguardia, told The Associated Press that the movie would be a "test of faith" for many people in the predominantly Roman Catholic Philippines.


THEY'RE ALL IDIOTS. ALL OF THEM. (I'm talking about the MTRCB - the movie censors here in the philippines)

Everything's a "TEST OF FAITH" for them. DOH. Fucking right-wing moralists.

But really, the only protests out here in the Philippines that have had some serious issues with the release of the movie is the ever-growing Opus Dei... and it's relatively small. Other than that, noone really cares much.

molson
05-17-2006, 12:52 PM
He is claiming things like the Mona Lisa is androgynous and that Leonardo named it the Mona Lisa as a clever anagram to represent the union of male and female. Leonardo didn't even name the painting. He is also claiming that the person to the right of Jesus is Magdalene and not John. He makes the claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls included lost gospels and they did no such thing. There are literally hundreds of inaccuracies and half-truths in the book even down to simple things that can be easily verified like the height of a painting.


I don't think its accurate to say he's "claiming" these things - I'm sure Dan Brown could care less one way or another. Sure, he's trying to involve the reader, make everything feel more "real" - but how is that any different than the entire genre of historical fiction? If someone writes a Civil War novel where General Lee is a cross-dressing alchoholic, and it's written in a way where such a thing is theoretically plausible, that author isn't making a factual claim. He's writing a book he hopes people will buy, and if he can make the reader think, "hey, maybe General Lee WAS a cross-dresser" then great, they're immersed in the book.

moriarty
05-17-2006, 12:54 PM
Brown is not laying these things out in the book as interpretations of artwork.

He is claiming things like the Mona Lisa is androgynous and that Leonardo named it the Mona Lisa as a clever anagram to represent the union of male and female. Leonardo didn't even name the painting. He is also claiming that the person to the right of Jesus is Magdalene and not John. He makes the claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls included lost gospels and they did no such thing. There are literally hundreds of inaccuracies and half-truths in the book even down to simple things that can be easily verified like the height of a painting.

Yes, these claims are being made through the characters in the book but none of them are being presented as interpretations otherwise why include the statement that all descriptions of artwork, documents etc are accurate? Why not say that this is a work of fiction and everything portrayed is how the characters in the book assume them to be or interpret them to be? Why say anything about accuracy at all? Brown is the one who comes right out of the gate about how all of this is accurate and I think that statement makes the entire book fair game to be pointed out for its numerous inaccuracies.

He's not trying to say the Last Supper is a real work of art - the purpose of his story is to show that Mary Magdalene is the Holy Grail and that she was Jesus wife and they had a child together not to say that the Last Supper painting exists.

I kind of agree with ISiddiqui on this one. I interpret it as he's saying the paintings things like the picture of the lady in the last supper are real, but the whole Holy Grail stuff he's not claiming as real. But I would concede that the way he states this can be misleading to a reader.

Bee
05-17-2006, 12:57 PM
I kind of agree with ISiddiqui on this one. I interpret it as he's saying the paintings things like the picture of the lady in the last supper are real, but the whole Holy Grail stuff he's not claiming as real. But I would concede that the way he states this can be misleading to a reader.

Never read the book, but that's the way I interpret it as well. I also agree the way it's written can be misleading and I'm sure that's on purpose.

Glengoyne
05-17-2006, 12:57 PM
I'm actually glad the mass protests and calls for banning the movie aren't happening here in the US. I'm sure some whako group here in the US will protest, but they're probably just taking time off from protesting Dungeons and Dragons, so no one will care.

As for viciously offensive. I'm not comfortable with the vicious assertion. I think the offensive part is pretty close to appropriate, especially where the concepts from the book are given new life and even assumed to be accurate depictions of history, because Dan Brown said they were. I kept in mind that it is just a book, and the concepts driving the story were essentially fiction. It was just a book after all.

moriarty
05-17-2006, 01:00 PM
Never read the book, but that's the way I interpret it as well. I also agree the way it's written can be misleading and I'm sure that's on purpose.

Exactly. Get some folks to think it's real and/or get the church in an uproar and sit back and wash the cash come in.

Didn't work so well for Soloman Rushdie, but at least he got to sell a lot of books.

Anthony
05-17-2006, 01:06 PM
this is the way it is:

brown makes the "FACT" assertion as a way to show that not everything in the fictional story you're about to read is made up. as in his novel "Angels and Demons", there really is a world science organization called CERN. illustrating what actually is a fact helps to blur myth from reality. that's what makes the story as "believable" or thought-provoking as it is, since it melds both a fictional story using real, tangible elements. hard to see where fact (The Last Supper is an actual painting) stops and interpretation/storytelling begins (John is really Mary Magdelline in the painting).

he is not saying his story is fact. yes, people will be idiots, but don't try to create a controversy where there isn't one. if this book was placed in the non-fiction section religious groups would have an arguement.

JS19
05-17-2006, 01:07 PM
Who's to say the whole book isn't true?

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 01:09 PM
But I would concede that the way he states this can be misleading to a reader.

This is my problem with the book. By prefacing his story with the line that "All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals in this novel are accurate." he is basically telling the reader - look, I finally put all the pieces together of this great mystic puzzle and now you can know the truth. That is what the whole story is - the opening of dumb Sophie's eyes. How she has lived in the world with all of these things just sticking out in paintings and documents (which he claims are accurate) and that they all have been covered up by the Catholic Church in an effort to maintain the divinity of Jesus and disregard women.

Brown didn't write a fairy tale about the flying spaghetti monster - he took religious beliefs and real world things and twisted and inaccurately portrayed them under the guise of them being truthful clues in uncovering the mystery of mysteries - the search for the Holy Grail.

Has Brown ever come forth and said that he made the whole thing up and that there is no way Jesus was married and that Jesus didn't have children? Do you think that Brown merely wrote a story of fiction or that he really wants people to question whether or not Jesus was married and had children? Did Brown write a story to entertain or did he write the story because he wants the core beliefs of the Catholic Church questioned? This is the problem to me and to me it looks like Brown is trying to hide under the cloak of "it's just fiction" yet wrote the book from the perspective of being an accurate account of historical works and events.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 01:18 PM
he is basically telling the reader - look, I finally put all the pieces together of this great mystic puzzle and now you can know the truth

And I think that's a streach. I agree with HA here entirely (I don't think I've ever said that, btw). Its to let the reader know that not everything is made up. Opus Dei members do 'punish' themselves, for example.

Brown didn't write a fairy tale about the flying spaghetti monster - he took religious beliefs and real world things and twisted and inaccurately portrayed them under the guise of them being truthful clues in uncovering the mystery of mysteries - the search for the Holy Grail.

Because a book about the FSM won't sell, or at least not nearly as much as a book about a conspiracy in the Catholic Church involving Jesus.

Has Brown ever come forth and said that he made the whole thing up and that there is no way Jesus was married and that Jesus didn't have children?

Why should he say there is "no way"? It is certain plausible that Jesus could have been married and have a child and perhaps he did. I don't think there is any reason why he'd have to say that it is impossible for that to be the case at all.

Anthony
05-17-2006, 01:23 PM
I agree with HA here entirely

admitting it is the first step.

i'd just like to go on record to say that "I agree with HA" (or some variant of that theme) is the most used phrase in FOFC history. seriously. i wish we could do a test so i could make this official.

Honolulu_Blue
05-17-2006, 01:28 PM
admitting it is the first step.

i'd just like to go on record to say that "I agree with HA" (or some variant of that theme) is the most used phrase in FOFC history. seriously. i wish we could do a test so i could make this official.

I don't agree with HA on this point, but his other points in this thread are fine.

Raiders Army
05-17-2006, 01:31 PM
I won't see the movie. Then again, I haven't been to a movie since 1992.
Was it one of these?

Gross Movie
$217,350,219 Aladdin (1992)
$173,585,516 Home Alone 2: Lost in New York (1992)
$162,831,698 Batman Returns (1992)
$144,731,527 Lethal Weapon 3 (1992)
$141,340,178 A Few Good Men (1992)
$139,610,000 Sister Act (1992)
$121,945,720 The Bodyguard (1992)
$121,697,350 Wayne's World (1992)
$117,727,000 Basic Instinct (1992)
$107,458,785 A League of Their Own (1992)

Anthony
05-17-2006, 01:32 PM
Has Brown ever come forth and said that he made the whole thing up and that there is no way Jesus was married and that Jesus didn't have children?

so you want Brown to essentially say "do not buy this book because even though i tried to write it convincingly in order to spur conversation and debate it's all based on false information and half-truths"? does JK Rowling have to issue a disclaimer upon the release of every Harry Potter novel?

it's a book of fiction. uses some actual, researchable elements (the various organizations, paintings, locations, etc) in order to help paint a more realistic story. movies use real world locations in order to help the audience identify with the plot/story - are they intentionally trying to be evil here?

again, it's sold in the fiction section. if you're easily misled or are that gullible that a convincing story can cause that much self-doubt then you know the rest of that arguement.

and even if the story was true - wouldn't you want to know the truth? or do you want to take the blue pill and go back to Wonderland (using a Matrix analogy here)? but anyway that's for a different discussion. all this nonsense just helps Brown sell more books and tickets. it was a nice story and i finished that book quicker than i normally do since it was exciting. when i woke up the next day the sun still rose and gravity still kept everything from floating, so crisis averted.

BrianD
05-17-2006, 01:32 PM
And I think that's a streach. I agree with HA here entirely (I don't think I've ever said that, btw). Its to let the reader know that not everything is made up. Opus Dei members do 'punish' themselves, for example.


I'm going to jump on Gary's side on this one. I don't agree with the strength and disappointment he shows in his posts, but I do think the whole purpose of the book and the fact disclaimer was to completely erase the line between fact and fiction. He starts his story with some pretty reasonable facts and then slowly brings in all the rest of his theories. It is very unclear where he is shifting from fact to fiction and I think the point of that is to get people to think that it all (or mostly) true. There wouldn't be nearly as much buzz about the book if people didn't think it could be true. There also wouldn't be nearly as many "explaining the Da Vinci Code" books if it didn't make so many people think it was all true.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 01:39 PM
Its to let the reader know that not everything is made up.

Like I said, my problem is that he says everything is accurate and that is a flat out lie. I brought up the height of a painting before. He gets details like that wrong. He gets dates wrong. The very first thing he says about the Priory of Sion - the first thing after the word FACT - is wrong.

Because a book about the FSM won't sell, or at least not nearly as much as a book about a conspiracy in the Catholic Church involving Jesus.

Yeah, you're dead on the money on that one. I just question his motive in his writing. Did he write it simply because he knew it would be a controversy and to sell books or did he write it as an attempt to attack the Church?

Why should he say there is "no way"? It is certain plausible that Jesus could have been married and have a child and perhaps he did. I don't think there is any reason why he'd have to say that it is impossible for that to be the case at all.

Because that goes to my question of what is the purpose of the book. Is it simply a wildly made up story to be entertaining to read and sell books or is he trying to distort historical facts to attack the Church? He wrote the book in a style that tries to put the reader as Sophie, the one who is missing all of these historical clue around them to the truth of the Catholic Church and had he not done such a good job of that the book would not be as popular and not be nearly the controversy it is. He may claim the book is fiction but is it simply a fictious story or is it an attempt to attack the Church and just like everything else with him that, to me, is very unclear.

Samdari
05-17-2006, 01:46 PM
Has Brown ever come forth and said that he made the whole thing up and that there is no way Jesus was married and that Jesus didn't have children?

No, in fact, he credits other authors for proposing and supporting that idea in a work of non-fiction (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0440136482/qid=1147891450/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-5550949-3180127?s=books&v=glance&n=283155). Those authors have already sued him/Sony and lost in Britain.

Those are who should be being protested, not Brown and Sony. Its amazing people blasting Brown for coming up with this heretical idea, when a bit of simple research reveals he didn't.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 01:47 PM
so you want Brown to essentially say "do not buy this book because even though i tried to write it convincingly in order to spur conversation and debate it's all based on false information and half-truths"?

Nothing of the sort - I don't want the book banned or for him to attempt to stop selling it. I just want him to clarify is it just a story that he twisted factual events and things to fit or is it an attempt to undermine the beliefs of millions of Catholics. And if you don't think a powerful speaker or writer is capable of starting to undermine someone's beliefs by casting a tiny shadow of doubt I don't know what to say and that is why this book is such a problem with the Church.


and even if the story was true - wouldn't you want to know the truth? or do you want to take the blue pill and go back to Wonderland (using a Matrix analogy here)?

Sure, but I already believe I know the truth in regards to my faith. I looked at what Brown had to say, did research, listened to people speak for and against the book and came to the conclusion that its nothing more than a story with a lot of inaccurate statements. I just don't like that in my opinion he's presenting fiction in a not so fictious manner.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 02:01 PM
Like I said, my problem is that he says everything is accurate and that is a flat out lie. I brought up the height of a painting before. He gets details like that wrong. He gets dates wrong. The very first thing he says about the Priory of Sion - the first thing after the word FACT - is wrong.

So this means he has sinister motives in saying some things in this book are based on fact? He made factual mistakes on the height of a painting or some details... and it turns into a fedral case because?

Yeah, you're dead on the money on that one. I just question his motive in his writing. Did he write it simply because he knew it would be a controversy and to sell books or did he write it as an attempt to attack the Church?

If he wrote it as an attempt to attack the Church why doesn't he just come out and say, yes, I think Jesus was married and had a son and the Catholic Church is covering it up, and the rest of the novel is a fictional gloss on finding that out? But he has never come out and said that. The fact is that the story of Jesus' life is unclear and many people HAVE asked whether Jesus married Mary Magdalene (it isn't something Brown came up with, as said before in this thread). "The Last Temptation of Christ" is something which does similar. Of course Brown's work is more of a mystery novel, so you have to have a conspiracy to make it work, to make it a page turner.

I mean Hell, Brown's next book is one about the Freemasons! I think that in itself shows that Brown's only goal is to spin a mystery yarn about secret organizations and conspiracies, which will sell books.

Solecismic
05-17-2006, 02:03 PM
Was it one of these?

Gross Movie
$217,350,219 Aladdin (1992)
$173,585,516 Home Alone 2: Lost in New York (1992)
$162,831,698 Batman Returns (1992)
$144,731,527 Lethal Weapon 3 (1992)
>>> $141,340,178 A Few Good Men (1992) <<<
$139,610,000 Sister Act (1992)
$121,945,720 The Bodyguard (1992)
$121,697,350 Wayne's World (1992)
$117,727,000 Basic Instinct (1992)
$107,458,785 A League of Their Own (1992)

Yes. Not all that memorable in and of itself.

On the Brown disclaimer. Yes, there's the standard "work of fiction" disclaimer in the boilerplate. No scholar is going to mistake this for non-fiction. I wish the Bible had a similar disclaimer, but that's for a different discussion.

And then he has the quoted piece where he shows off his supposed research. I understand the complaint. He should have placed this disclaimer in the back of the book (to avoid spoiling the plot) and extended it to differentiate between fact and conjecture. He was not precise and I understand why some are taking offense.

There is a standard in research, even in fiction, and if he's going to use facts as a jumping-off point in order to gain an aura of authenticity, he needs to be explicit as to the location of the jumping-off point. Either that or not mention his research at all.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 02:11 PM
If he wrote it as an attempt to attack the Church why doesn't he just come out and say, yes, I think Jesus was married and had a son and the Catholic Church is covering it up, and the rest of the novel is a fictional gloss on finding that out?

Because of the repurcussions of doing so. There are people upset with the book now but if he were to do that he would totally lose any middle ground with the book. Books would be burned, banned, etc, etc...the fact of the matter is that there are alot of people who are Catholic - and there have been many of those people who have bought or read the book and some of whom love the book. Right now Brown's just the innocent storyteller - if he were to proclaim that its just an attempt to attack the Church it would be diasterous for his career (maybe not with this book since its already bought but for anything in the future).

Like I said, I don't want the book banned or the movie banned nor have I told anyone they shouldnt read the book etc... I just question his motives behind the book based on how its presented. To me, its not presented as simply telling some fantastic story. To me he presents it as a "wake up and see the truth that's been staring at you all these years" type of deal thinly veiled behind three fictional characters.

BrianD
05-17-2006, 02:13 PM
There is a standard in research, even in fiction, and if he's going to use facts as a jumping-off point in order to gain an aura of authenticity, he needs to be explicit as to the location of the jumping-off point. Either that or not mention his research at all.

I think not mentioning the research at all would have been a reasonable idea. All of the "facts" clearly were facts. People are familiar with the paintings and can easily look them up to see what he is talking about in the books. After reading the book I was left with the impression that much more of the book was true than may have been intended. After doing a bit of research, I found out just how much of a stretch some parts of the book were.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 02:18 PM
I think not mentioning the research at all would have been a reasonable idea. All of the "facts" clearly were facts. People are familiar with the paintings and can easily look them up to see what he is talking about in the books. After reading the book I was left with the impression that much more of the book was true than may have been intended. After doing a bit of research, I found out just how much of a stretch some parts of the book were.

I think Brian has maybe put it better here than I have - Brian and myself and others have done the research or read others research and realized how much twisting and stretching he did. There's a lot of other people who will put this down and say wow, I had no idea those things happened and the things I thought all along are not true. And that's just not in relation to Jesus - things like the Mona Lisa not being a woman and Leonardo being commissioned to do hundreds of works for the Church (when he was commissioned to do just one).

In one aspect that's a testament to the writing style of Brown that he is able to hook readers in like that. On the other hand its dangerous because of the subject matter and the conclusion he draws in the book.

moriarty
05-17-2006, 02:22 PM
I think not mentioning the research at all would have been a reasonable idea. All of the "facts" clearly were facts. People are familiar with the paintings and can easily look them up to see what he is talking about in the books. After reading the book I was left with the impression that much more of the book was true than may have been intended. After doing a bit of research, I found out just how much of a stretch some parts of the book were.

Look on the brightside, how many millions of peole like yourself were intrigued by the ideas did some research ... read one of the millions of books debunking the theories and came away with a new appreciation for the church/bible.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 02:23 PM
I just question his motives behind the book based on how its presented. To me, its not presented as simply telling some fantastic story. To me he presents it as a "wake up and see the truth that's been staring at you all these years" type of deal thinly veiled behind three fictional characters.

Then you'd have to come to the conclusion that he's a batshit crazy conspiracy theorist because his next book "The Soloman Key" is a mystery about the Freemasons and "Angels and Demons" was a mystery about the Illuminati.

Some people just think its fun to write about conspiracy theories, as a lot of people like to read about them (or play computer games with them as Deus Ex showed).

stevew
05-17-2006, 02:24 PM
Somewhere the other day someone forwarded me some sort of "Dan Brown Novel Generator." I'll see if i can find it again, it was pretty funny.

stevew
05-17-2006, 02:25 PM
dola

I'm suprised this movie is getting panned on quality, the story seemed easy enough so that a retard could have made a good movie out of it.

Fuckin Opie.

MrBigglesworth
05-17-2006, 02:27 PM
Sure, ok, they're totally out of line objecting to vicious propaganda being pushed all over the world slandering their belief system - they should just ignore it and go work in the soup kitchen. I totally agree.:rolleyes:
I hardly think the Church is in a position to object to someone pushing propaganda all over the world.

BrianD
05-17-2006, 02:29 PM
Look on the brightside, how many millions of peole like yourself were intrigued by the ideas did some research ... read one of the millions of books debunking the theories and came away with a new appreciation for the church/bible.

Actually I came away a bit disappointed since Brown's version of events seemed cooler...even if untrue.

Interestingly, I found myself getting very annoyed with the books countering Brown's claims. They all seemed to take such a tone of offense and ridicule toward anyone that might question things that I was completely put off. The art of unpationate intellectual debate really does seem to be lost...though understandably religion is a touchy subject.

Raiders Army
05-17-2006, 02:30 PM
Yes. Not all that memorable in and of itself.

On the Brown disclaimer. Yes, there's the standard "work of fiction" disclaimer in the boilerplate. No scholar is going to mistake this for non-fiction. I wish the Bible had a similar disclaimer, but that's for a different discussion.

And then he has the quoted piece where he shows off his supposed research. I understand the complaint. He should have placed this disclaimer in the back of the book (to avoid spoiling the plot) and extended it to differentiate between fact and conjecture. He was not precise and I understand why some are taking offense.

There is a standard in research, even in fiction, and if he's going to use facts as a jumping-off point in order to gain an aura of authenticity, he needs to be explicit as to the location of the jumping-off point. Either that or not mention his research at all.
Strange that the last movie you saw probably was most memorable for

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

which is somewhat applicable to this thread in that we don't know what the truth is and if the book is true, then people can't handle it. Small world.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 02:34 PM
Then you'd have to come to the conclusion that he's a batshit crazy conspiracy theorist because his next book "The Soloman Key" is a mystery about the Freemasons and "Angels and Demons" was a mystery about the Illuminati.

Some people just think its fun to write about conspiracy theories, as a lot of people like to read about them (or play computer games with them as Deus Ex showed).

Maybe he is - to be honest I don't know what he is. I just don't like how its presented because to me, its presented like fact and not a bunch of what ifs. The characters in the story aren't telling Sophie "what if this is really a picture of John the Baptist blessing Jesus" - they're telling her that she and everyone else has been lied to all these years and that it is John the Baptist blessing Jesus etc...I realize it makes for good storytelling but he purposely blurs the line between fact and fiction in order to confuse the reader while telling this story and I'm not familiar with his past or upcoming work - is this his MO when writing?

Maple Leafs
05-17-2006, 02:38 PM
i'd just like to go on record to say that "I agree with HA" (or some variant of that theme) is the most used phrase in FOFC history. seriously. i wish we could do a test so i could make this official.
I ran a search. It's actually third, behind only "Tom Brady is the dreamiest" and "Nice picture, Pumpy".

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 02:53 PM
The characters in the story aren't telling Sophie "what if this is really a picture of John the Baptist blessing Jesus" - they're telling her that she and everyone else has been lied to all these years and that it is John the Baptist blessing Jesus etc...

How else are you going to write a conspiracy theory book? You always have to have the 'kook' who has been warning people for ages, but no one listens to him until the protagonist realizes the truth. "You've been lied to!" is a well established cliche in this type of fiction.

I realize it makes for good storytelling but he purposely blurs the line between fact and fiction in order to confuse the reader while telling this story and I'm not familiar with his past or upcoming work - is this his MO when writing?

Did you miss the post above where someone was saying they had a link somewhere to a "Dan Brown novel generator". Apparently "Angels and Demons" was exactly the same.

Bonegavel
05-17-2006, 02:55 PM
Dan Brown 1
FOFC 0

moriarty
05-17-2006, 02:58 PM
dola

I'm suprised this movie is getting panned on quality, the story seemed easy enough so that a retard could have made a good movie out of it.

Fuckin Opie.

It may suck, but I wouldn't base my opinion on a bunch of Cannes critics. Now if Leonard Maltin were there...

gstelmack
05-17-2006, 03:00 PM
On the Brown disclaimer. Yes, there's the standard "work of fiction" disclaimer in the boilerplate. No scholar is going to mistake this for non-fiction. I wish the Bible had a similar disclaimer, but that's for a different discussion.

And then he has the quoted piece where he shows off his supposed research. I understand the complaint. He should have placed this disclaimer in the back of the book (to avoid spoiling the plot) and extended it to differentiate between fact and conjecture. He was not precise and I understand why some are taking offense.

There is a standard in research, even in fiction, and if he's going to use facts as a jumping-off point in order to gain an aura of authenticity, he needs to be explicit as to the location of the jumping-off point. Either that or not mention his research at all.

Yup. The problem is him adding his extra disclaimer. People rip Michael Crichton's latest, but at least he made clear what was fact by footnoting it. Brown tried to pawn off far more of his book as fact than really was, and that's the problem here. And yes, based on the interview bits I've seen with him, I believe it was either intentional OR that he just didn't do his research. For example, I think he sure sounds like someone who didn't dig deep enough into the "Priory of Scion" to find out it was a complete hoax...

moriarty
05-17-2006, 03:00 PM
Was it one of these?

Gross Movie
$217,350,219 Aladdin (1992)
$173,585,516 Home Alone 2: Lost in New York (1992)
$162,831,698 Batman Returns (1992)
$144,731,527 Lethal Weapon 3 (1992)
>>> $141,340,178 A Few Good Men (1992) <<<
$139,610,000 Sister Act (1992)
$121,945,720 The Bodyguard (1992)
$121,697,350 Wayne's World (1992)
$117,727,000 Basic Instinct (1992)
$107,458,785 A League of Their Own (1992)

ehh, I had Jim pegged as a Basic Instinct guy. Oh well, at least it wasn't Home Alone 2.

BrianD
05-17-2006, 03:02 PM
For example, I think he sure sounds like someone who didn't dig deep enough into the "Priory of Scion" to find out it was a complete hoax...

What was the story behind this again? I seem to remember a couple of guys made up the Priory of Scion for some purpose, but I forget what it was. Were they running some kind of scam?

moriarty
05-17-2006, 03:03 PM
What was the story behind this again? I seem to remember a couple of guys made up the Priory of Scion for some purpose, but I forget what it was. Were they running some kind of scam?

That's what the Vatican wants you to think at least. :D

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 03:09 PM
What was the story behind this again? I seem to remember a couple of guys made up the Priory of Scion for some purpose, but I forget what it was. Were they running some kind of scam?

It may or may not have had something to do with a Nigerian prince and a bank account :)

gstelmack
05-17-2006, 03:12 PM
What was the story behind this again? I seem to remember a couple of guys made up the Priory of Scion for some purpose, but I forget what it was. Were they running some kind of scam?

Basically. Been a while since I saw the Discovery documentary on it. Had something to do with proving a bloodline so one guy could claim aristocracy or that he had a claim to a chunk of land or somesuch. The key was all the documents he presented to prove it turned out to be forgeries.

BrianD
05-17-2006, 03:14 PM
I was really hoping someone would remember the Priory of Scion story so I wouldn't have to look it up myself. Google brings up so much crap related to the Brown book that it is hard to find real information. I remember seeing a documentary talking about the "secrets" in the book and they did a section on this book. As I think about it more, I don't believe it was a scam, and I don't think the people who created the group expected people to take them seriously. It just seemed like an amazingly weak story for Brown to fall into. I'll have to see if I can find the story again.

Solecismic
05-17-2006, 03:22 PM
ehh, I had Jim pegged as a Basic Instinct guy. Oh well, at least it wasn't Home Alone 2.

It was a date. Not coincidentally, the one I always use when people ask for my "worst date story."

I've seen a couple of the others here on cable - Basic Instinct, which was blah except for one scene, and A League of Their Own, which I think is one of the better sports movies out there.

moriarty
05-17-2006, 03:33 PM
It was a date. Not coincidentally, the one I always use when people ask for my "worst date story."

I've seen a couple of the others here on cable - Basic Instinct, which was blah except for one scene, and A League of Their Own, which I think is one of the better sports movies out there.

See if you had seen Basic Instinct on a date it might have qualified as the 'best date' story. I know it certainly got things 'moving' for my date when we saw it.

moriarty
05-17-2006, 03:34 PM
Dola, I feel kind dirty now for mixing Basic Instinct and religion in the same thread.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 03:36 PM
Dola, I feel kind dirty now for mixing Basic Instinct and religion in the same thread.

Why? Both of them are about getting screwed :D.

Klinglerware
05-17-2006, 03:38 PM
Dola, I feel kind dirty now for mixing Basic Instinct and religion in the same thread.

Although both movies in question were protested by groups who thought they were being portrayed in a bad light...

Huckleberry
05-17-2006, 03:40 PM
Dola, I feel kind dirty now for mixing Basic Instinct and religion in the same thread.

I said "god dammit" and "c---" (can't even type that one) in a church sanctuary today.

I win.

sabotai
05-17-2006, 04:04 PM
Basically. Been a while since I saw the Discovery documentary on it. Had something to do with proving a bloodline so one guy could claim aristocracy or that he had a claim to a chunk of land or somesuch. The key was all the documents he presented to prove it turned out to be forgeries.
I think I saw this too (or something similar on the History Channel). I think it was one guy, with the help of a few others, trying to "prove" (in quotes since it was a hoax) an aristocratic bloodline. They didn't expect it to get the attention it did (which seems kind of silly considering what they were trying to do) but I think they came clean when they really couldn't handle the pressure of all the constant attention they were receiving.

EDIT: Beyond The Da Vinci Code is the show on this I saw. They'll probably replay it now that the movie is coming out. It was pretty good (they basically took apart all of the "facts" that the book claims or doesn't claim to be based on.

moriarty
05-17-2006, 04:09 PM
I said "god dammit" and "c---" (can't even type that one) in a church sanctuary today.

I win.

You sir are going straight to hell ... and no television.

sabotai
05-17-2006, 04:10 PM
I said "god dammit" and "c---" (can't even type that one) in a church sanctuary today.

.....cout......cups.....coup.....cun-OH!! That word...

st.cronin
05-17-2006, 04:33 PM
I hardly think the Church is in a position to object to someone pushing propaganda all over the world.

Don't go there: I am not the Church, and do not speak for any Church, or anybody else. I speak for my own beliefs, which in this case have been offended. The Church itself, as far as I know, is not objecting.

astrosfan64
05-17-2006, 04:41 PM
Gary:

Shouldn't you be coding on the golf game instead of arguing about whether or not this movie is "real". (joke).

On a serious note the whole Catholic Church is made up. I was rasied Catholic and they break so many rules of "true christianity" it isn't even funny.

They worship Mary and have an "idol" to her. That is a big no no. They pray to Mary.

Pergatury? Where does that come from.

The pope itself was completely against jesus's teachings.

JS19
05-17-2006, 05:04 PM
uh oh.....call me crazy, but i predict bad, bad things in the near future.

Noop
05-17-2006, 06:02 PM
Like I said if this book/movie offends you then you need a new system of belief. Stop being a mindless, spineless follower and us that organ inside your skulls. Any truth should be able to on its own stand up against "slander" or whatever you call it.

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 06:34 PM
Well isn't that what a work of fiction is? When an author writes a book of fiction about the flying spaghetti monster attacking a trout pond I'm assuming he made stuff up even if he calls the trout pond Lake Michigan.

Depends on the type of book it is. Some books, like the Di Vinci Code, takes real life ideas and items to carry the fictional book. Just because he's using real paintings and letting people know they're real paintings and concepts doesn't mean he's touting the story as real.

After all, the idea of the Holy Grail being something other than a cup is far from a new concept. If you're curious, read Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Facinating read.


People don't know the Mona Lisa and Last Supper are real paintings? I highly doubt that Brown sat around and just innocently decided to write a book which claims that Jesus was not considered to be divine until a vote was taken at Nicene and that Jesus actually was married to Magdalene and fathered a child through her.

Well, I'm a Christian, and a Catholic to boot, and I am curious why some of the Apocrypha books were tossed, especially the Gospel of Magdalene. Why the Catholic Church labeled her a prostitute, when there's indications she not only was a Disciple, but the most important one.


I think Brown made that intial statement on purpose to get the reader in the state of mind that what he or she is about to read is truth or even that its a very plausible conspiracy theory because of factual events a,b,c,d.... Without that statement I think its much easier to simply dismiss the events as a reader as being just some wild story Brown contrived but by having things that he claims as facts (yet are wildly inaccurate on the whole) he creates an aura to make the reader lend credence to his work of fiction.

Well, I read and enjoyed the book, and my faith is just as strong as it was before. Even if the whole thing is true, to me, it doesn't take anything away from his sacrifice, and his importance to me or to history.

Some will take away from the book an interest in learning more about history, and there's nothing wrong with that. Some will just enjoy a good book, and that's fine too. Either way, allowing people to make up their own minds is the important thing.

Just my take on it.

gstelmack
05-17-2006, 06:39 PM
After all, the idea of the Holy Grail being something other than a cup is far from a new concept. If you're curious, read Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Facinating read.

Pssst. Those are the guys suing him for stealing their story...

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 06:41 PM
Sued - they lost the case

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 06:42 PM
Pssst. Those are the guys suing him for stealing their story...

Yeah, I know. Their case got thrown out, last I heard. Still, it's an interesting read.

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/04/07/100133.php

Northwood_DK
05-17-2006, 06:47 PM
Pssst. Those are the guys suing him for stealing their story...

I still found that funny. I Dan Brown had not written his book, “Holy Blood, Holy Grail” would never have sold a copy today.

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 06:54 PM
Because a book about the FSM won't sell, or at least not nearly as much as a book about a conspiracy in the Catholic Church involving Jesus.


I'm offended that you don't follow up a reference to the Flying Spagetti Monster with "Praised Be His Noodly Appendage".

Ramen. :-)

moriarty
05-17-2006, 07:04 PM
I still found that funny. I Dan Brown had not written his book, “Holy Blood, Holy Grail” would never have sold a copy today.

I actually bought my copy long before Dan Brown's book came out. In fact I think I bought it b/c of some tie in with a video game (Gabriel KNight if I recall).

I probably still have it around here somewhere, but I think on the cover it said something like international bestseller (and this is way before the Brown book) so I think it sold a few copies on its own. It's an interesting read, but I came away thinking they made a lot of leaps of faith (pun intended) to come to their conclusions. I may have to dust it off an reread it sometime.

sabotai
05-17-2006, 07:24 PM
Looks like the History Channel actually has made another show about the Da Vinci Code. There's one on Friday night (Behind The Da Vinci Code, looks like the new one) at 8pm and 12 midnight (and again Sunday at 7pm)..

Beyond The Da Vinci Code (older one) is airing Sunday at 8pm and 12 midnight.

Grammaticus
05-17-2006, 07:36 PM
What really bothers me about this topic is not that the movie was made and it bashes the Catholic Church or castes an albino in a role that considered traditionally bad. I don't believe his theory, but the book was a decent story.

Now, what bothers me is there were no issues from the movie makers within Hollywood or outcry in the media over casting the Catholic Church as fake and bad. When the movie "Clear and Present Danger" was completely changed to caste the bad guys as white neo nazi killers. This was done so as not to offend the Islamic faith and supporters as the book is really about Islamic Arabs conducting terrorist activity. This was done to suppress a message that some people did not want conveyed.

Don't shut down messages of which you don't agree, and then act like you are just supporting free speech when it suits you.

Personally, I think both movies should have been made and true to their author’s story.

Groundhog
05-17-2006, 08:01 PM
What really bothers me about this topic is not that the movie was made and it bashes the Catholic Church or castes an albino in a role that considered traditionally bad. I don't believe his theory, but the book was a decent story.

Now, what bothers me is there were no issues from the movie makers within Hollywood or outcry in the media over casting the Catholic Church as fake and bad. When the movie "Clear and Present Danger" was completely changed to caste the bad guys as white neo nazi killers. This was done so as not to offend the Islamic faith and supporters as the book is really about Islamic Arabs conducting terrorist activity. This was done to suppress a message that some people did not want conveyed.

Don't shut down messages of which you don't agree, and then act like you are just supporting free speech when it suits you.

Personally, I think both movies should have been made and true to their author’s story.

This is my feeling towards it, too. I believe in absolute free speech, and if you think something that is released is unfair towards what you believe in then you have the right to prove it wrong.

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 08:03 PM
This is my feeling towards it, too. I believe in absolute free speech, and if you think something that is released is unfair towards what you believe in then you have the right to prove it wrong.

I didn't know they changed the plot to Clear and Present Danger. That's a shame an author's work gets screwed over in the name of political correctness.

But I agree as well. Changes have to be made from a book to a story to find within the confines of a motion picture, but there's no excuse for changing a storyline to stop a small group from being offended. That's pretty close to censorship.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 08:06 PM
Well, it's their film... if they want to try to capture more of the market by not offending a group (which is really the reason anything gets changed for "PC" reasons in Hollywood), whatever.

Though it's not like "Clear and Present Danger" was otherwise a good movie.. they did hire Ben fucking Affleck to play Jack Ryan, after all. Better to have it be a complete abortion than have even an ounce of merit. This way no one likes it, at least.

sabotai
05-17-2006, 08:13 PM
Though it's not like "Clear and Present Danger" was otherwise a good movie.. they did hire Ben fucking Affleck to play Jack Ryan, after all.

Wrong Clancy movie. (Clear and Present Danger had Ford playing Ryan). Sum Of All Fears had Ben Affleck as Ryan (and that's the movie that changed muslims to neo-nazis, not Clear And Present Danger)

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 08:13 PM
Well, it's their film... if they want to try to capture more of the market by not offending a group (which is really the reason anything gets changed for "PC" reasons in Hollywood), whatever.


So when does the movie no longer be an adaptation of a novel, but changed so much it's unrecognizable?

I mean, would Lord of the Rings be legitimately be based on the novels if the bad guy gets changed to something completely different from the books? What's the line where a adapatation no longer adapts from the source work, and does the filmmakers have the right to cross that line?

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 08:14 PM
Whoops... yeah, got the name wrong because someone else (looks at Grammaticus) got it wrong initially.

sabotai
05-17-2006, 08:15 PM
and does the filmmakers have the right to cross that line?

Entirely up to the contract between the film makers and the author. Some authors just take whatever money they can and let the film makers do whatever they want.

sabotai
05-17-2006, 08:16 PM
Whoops... yeah, got the name wrong because someone else (looks at Grammaticus) got it wrong initially.

Grammaticus!!! That's a 5 minute major penalty for confusing a good movie with a really bad one!

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 08:16 PM
So when does the movie no longer be an adaptation of a novel, but changed so much it's unrecognizable?

I mean, would Lord of the Rings be legitimately be based on the novels if the bad guy gets changed to something completely different from the books? What's the line where a adapatation no longer adapts from the source work, and does the filmmakers have the right to cross that line?

Look at "I, Robot" or "Starship Troopers". "Minority Report" starts off well and then does some wierd things not in the short story. Hell, most of them are sci-fi aren't they? But that's an aside...

Apparently the filmmaker, if he's got the rights, thinks he can cross whatever line he wants. Not saying its right, just that it is.

Though obviously, he'd want to keep somethings from the book.

Groundhog
05-17-2006, 08:19 PM
I think "I, Robot" did a decent job with it, but it went on too long. I thought the scene where you see all the robots in the yard stored in cargo, where it talks about them huddling together for seeming no reason, was going to be the end... sort of a grand awakening, but sadly it went for the big Hollywood cliche ending.

Starship Troopers was of course basically nothing like the book. I often wonder if I'm the only one that loves the film MUCH more than the book. The film is fantastic satire IMO.

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 08:28 PM
Look at "I, Robot" or "Starship Troopers". "Minority Report" starts off well and then does some wierd things not in the short story. Hell, most of them are sci-fi aren't they? But that's an aside...

Yeah, and those are good examples of what I mean.


Apparently the filmmaker, if he's got the rights, thinks he can cross whatever line he wants. Not saying its right, just that it is.

And you're right about that too, but my question isn't about contractually what filmmakers can do. In your opinion, how much changes to a story SHOULD be allowed before it longer reflects what the author did?

sabotai
05-17-2006, 08:32 PM
Starship Troopers was of course basically nothing like the book. I often wonder if I'm the only one that loves the film MUCH more than the book. The film is fantastic satire IMO.

I never actually read the book, but despite myself, I do really enjoy the film.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 08:40 PM
And you're right about that too, but my question isn't about contractually what filmmakers can do. In your opinion, how much changes to a story SHOULD be allowed before it longer reflects what the author did?

Of course that is very film dependent. Some movies can be faithful to the spirit of the book without being word for word, while others can include passages from the book, but totally go an entirely different way as to their interpretation ("Contact" book fans get royally pissed about how the movie did that to it).

Can't give you anything better than that, I'm afraid.


As for Starship Troopers, I do enjoy the film as a satire (I'm not buying the DVD or anything) and for having Doogie ;). However, I also enjoy the book. The book is the closest thing I've read to (what I assume is) a real soldier's account of the entire experience of war (not just a battle or a part of it, but from being a green trooper all the way to veteran).

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 08:46 PM
Of course that is very film dependent. Some movies can be faithful to the spirit of the book without being word for word, while others can include passages from the book, but totally go an entirely different way as to their interpretation ("Contact" book fans get royally pissed about how the movie did that to it).

I've never read Sagan's book. What did they change, out of curiousity?

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 08:52 PM
I've never read Sagan's book. What did they change, out of curiousity?
I won't spoil it, but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_%28novel%29

Some believe that the ending is more 'religious', so to speak (Sagan was an atheist, though interestingly, so take it as you will).

sabotai
05-17-2006, 08:57 PM
Some believe that the ending is more 'religious', so to speak (Sagan was an atheist, though interestingly, so take it as you will).

http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=20020405

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 09:35 PM
Well, I'm a Christian, and a Catholic to boot, and I am curious why some of the Apocrypha books were tossed, especially the Gospel of Magdalene. Why the Catholic Church labeled her a prostitute, when there's indications she not only was a Disciple, but the most important one.

Well just to be clear on this the Catholic Church never labeled her a prostitute nor does the Bible ever say that she was a prostitute. This misconception stemmed from a homily given by Pope Gregory in which he ended up basically combining Mary Magdalene, Mary of Bethany and the sinning woman from Luke's gospel in a homily about how people need to repent for their sins and should have the courage to do so like "Mary" did. This happened because the passages in Luke are so close together of the mentioning of the sinful woman, then the mentioning of the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair and then Magdalene is named in a passage not too far beyond that in regards to something else.

As for why the Apocrypha books were tossed is that they were not written by people living during the time of Jesus and were instead composed centuries after the four gospels were originally written.

The gospels give Mary Magdalene a very high place in the church - she is mentioned I think at least 12 times by name and was mentioned as not only a witness to the crucifixion but as well as playing the most prominent role in the resurrection being the first person Christ appeared to. That's not to say Magdalene was not mentioned as a sinner in the gospels - she was mentioned as having demons driven out of her - but there was never mention of her as a prostitute.

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 10:16 PM
Brown doesn't say there are supposed facts within the framework of a fictional story. His words are right there on the page

He's claiming that everything in his book in regards to descriptions of artwork - eg that it is Mary seated at Jesus' right hand in the painting of the Last Supper and that nuns commissioned Leonardo to paint the Virgin on the Rocks yet the painting had to be redone because it contained depictions the church wanted covered up - is FACT. How can you say that ALL descriptions are accurate and have anything fictional regarding those things? Brown can't even get the sizes of the paintings of the Virgin on the Rocks correct and yet he claims that all descriptions of artwork are accurate.

I think it IS Mary seated at Jesus' right hand, as I believe Mary as the Beloved Disciple. Yeah, contrary to Catholic beliefs, but they downplay her importance.

Also, the Virgin of the Rocks WAS redone -- the original did not distinquish between John the Baptist and Jesus, which coincides with Da Vinci's Gnostic beliefs. The version in the Louvre is the original version, not the retouched.

Easy Mac
05-17-2006, 10:21 PM
Why I think the movie will fail:
85% was just exposition detailing the various conspiracy theories. A movie with 85% of exposition and 15% action set pieces would be boring as hell. I don't really think there is a good way to bring a movie such as this, which makes either prior reading of the book or retellings of various parts of the "mythology" in the movie essential, to the big screen. I mean, there are times where The Hanks character or McLellan's character would need to sit around for 35 minutes to give details on what exactly the priory is. That would just get fucking boring.

Either that or they dumbed the movie way down. I thought it was a decent story, but ultimately it's not something I really thought about after going through it.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 10:43 PM
I think it IS Mary seated at Jesus' right hand, as I believe Mary as the Beloved Disciple. Yeah, contrary to Catholic beliefs, but they downplay her importance.

Who downplays her importance? The Catholic Church? How do you figure that? She has been called by the Church itself the "Apostle of the Apostles" and is said to be the first person Christ appeared to after rising. She is mentioned more times in the gospels than some of the 12 apostles. Short of the Blessed Virgin I don't know what woman plays a more prominent role in the Bible than does Mary Magdalene and that in a time when women didn't play anything close to a prominent let alone equal role in society.

Also, the Virgin of the Rocks WAS redone -- the original did not distinquish between John the Baptist and Jesus, which coincides with Da Vinci's Gnostic beliefs. The version in the Louvre is the original version, not the retouched.

Yes, it was redone - redone because Leonardo sold the original to a private client after a financial dispute with the confraternity that commissioned him to paint it not redone for the purpose of better distinguishing John the Baptist from Jesus.

Schmidty
05-17-2006, 10:53 PM
Am I the only one uncomfortable with a major text game creator publically arguing/discussing religion? Just curious.

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 10:58 PM
Who downplays her importance? The Catholic Church? How do you figure that? She has been called by the Church itself the "Apostle of the Apostles" and is said to be the first person Christ appeared to after rising. She is mentioned more times in the gospels than some of the 12 apostles. Short of the Blessed Virgin I don't know what woman plays a more prominent role in the Bible than does Mary Magdalene and that in a time when women didn't play anything close to a prominent let alone equal role in society.

But yet she has been and in many ways still is downplayed, because for all the mentions in the Bible, she's not considered by the Catholic Church as an actual Disciple.



Yes, it was redone - redone because Leonardo sold the original to a private client after a financial dispute with the confraternity that commissioned him to paint it not redone for the purpose of better distinguishing John the Baptist from Jesus.

Not according to several sources, that state that the original painting was considered heretical and the organization refused to pay for it. That's why it was sold to a private client and it was redone with the staff cross across the baby's shoulder. Funny thing is, for some strange reason in the painting the baby John is next to the Holy Mother, not Christ. In the original, there is no cross staff, and one could very easily make the assumption that the one identified as John really is Christ.

There's strong indications that Da Vinci was a Gnostic, who believed not in a literal resurrection or divine birth, but a spiritual one. This puts John the Baptist as someone (to Da Vinci) nearly as important as Christ was, since he was the one responsible for his baptism. This belief would make sense that Da Vinci would paint John as blessing Christ, not the other way around.

Groundhog
05-17-2006, 10:59 PM
Am I the only one uncomfortable with a major text game creator publically arguing/discussing religion? Just curious.

If it was on his official forum then I would think it inappropriate, but I like to think that the FOFC is a place where people like Arlie, Jim, Gary, etc. can talk fairly freely.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 11:03 PM
Am I the only one uncomfortable with a major text game creator publically arguing/discussing religion? Just curious.

Nah... we all got our own beliefs. I'd only be uncomfortable if that person was intolerant of others (and I don't mean of their arguments), but I haven't run into that yet on FOFC, at least that I recognized.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 11:05 PM
Am I the only one uncomfortable with a major text game creator publically arguing/discussing religion? Just curious.

Why? I'm not some robot that is banging out code. I have opinions on things other than games I make and I'm not afraid to express them even if they are unpopular ideas to some. If you or someone chooses not to buy a game I make because of my public opinions thats up to you but that's about as sensical as saying that a theatre shouldn't be allowed to show the Da Vinci Code movie because it might offend the beliefs of some people.

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 11:05 PM
Nah... we all got our own beliefs. I'd only be uncomfortable if that person was intolerant of others (and I don't mean of their arguments), but I haven't run into that yet on FOFC, at least that I recognized.

Yeah, I'm so not saying Gorski is wrong. I find the subject absolutely fascinating, and I like to discuss it. I'm certainly not saying his beliefs are wrong. I share most of them.

His opinions have nothing at all to do with me buying his games. I'm actually a big fan of his work, and will continue to support all of his games.

Plus, I like to argue. It's fun.

Chief Rum
05-17-2006, 11:10 PM
Because a book about the FSM won't sell, or at least not nearly as much as a book about a conspiracy in the Catholic Church involving Jesus.

Brilliant. I have a new favorite abbreviation. FSM == flying spaghetti monster

Schmidty
05-17-2006, 11:10 PM
Why? I'm not some robot that is banging out code. I have opinions on things other than games I make and I'm not afraid to express them even if they are unpopular ideas to some. If you or someone chooses not to buy a game I make because of my public opinions thats up to you but that's about as sensical as saying that a theatre shouldn't be allowed to show the Da Vinci Code movie because it might offend the beliefs of some people.

I didn't say say that it offends me, I just said it's wierd to me. Arguing about religion on a forum based around your business/livelyhood is a lot different than doing the same thing on a forum that has nothing to do with your job/customers.

I personally think the people complaining about the Davinci code are lame, but I wouldn't be arguing that on a board populated by people that buy my product, especially since it has religion attached to it. That's just my opinion.

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 11:12 PM
Brilliant. I have a new favorite abbreviation. FSM == flying spaghetti monster

Check this out: www.venganza.org (http://www.venganza.org)
Also, this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812976568

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 11:13 PM
I didn't say say that it offends me, I just said it's wierd to me. Arguing about religion on a forum based around your business/livelyhood is a lot different than doing the same thing on a forum that has nothing to do with your job/customers.

I personally think the people complaining about the Davinci code are lame, but I wouldn't be arguing that on a board populated by people that buy my product, especially since it has religion attached to it. That's just my opinion.

With all due respect, Schmidty, I think it's refreshing to hear more of his personal opinion on things. At least to me, it actually wants me to support his product more.

ISiddiqui
05-17-2006, 11:16 PM
I think Schmidty was thinking about Jim and how in one thread a while back someone said that he found Jim's views so abhorant that he wasn't going to buy any of his games anymore. It is somewhat risky.

WVUFAN
05-17-2006, 11:24 PM
I think Schmidty was thinking about Jim and how in one thread a while back someone said that he found Jim's views so abhorant that he wasn't going to buy any of his games anymore. It is somewhat risky.

So no developer should post about anything except for his or her own games? I understand where you're coming from, but I don't see many people on this site with skin so thin they'll take offense to people arguing over what Leo Da Vinci's intent was in a few of his paintings. :-)

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 11:30 PM
I didn't say say that it offends me, I just said it's wierd to me. Arguing about religion on a forum based around your business/livelyhood is a lot different than doing the same thing on a forum that has nothing to do with your job/customers.

I personally think the people complaining about the Davinci code are lame, but I wouldn't be arguing that on a board populated by people that buy my product, especially since it has religion attached to it. That's just my opinion.

Well say what you want about me but I'm going to be a part of the community and not just when its convienient or prudent for me to do so. If I rub someone the wrong way or they don't approve of my views and beliefs and decide not to buy my games then so be it. Part of the reason I develop games is because I like it - I like being part of the community. I feel that I try to be respectful of others viewpoints even though I may disagree and try to be respectful in my replies. Other developers here argue politics - that's not really my cup of tea so I stay away from those threads for the most part but there are other things important to me other than sports and I see no reason why I shouldn't participate.

I look at it this way - I make good games. If someone wants to miss out on a game they would like to play because they don't agree with my religious or personal beliefs then that's up to them just as its up to someone whether or not they would go see a movie like Mission Impossible 3 because they don't believe in Scientology and Tom Cruise does.

I know there will be people who don't agree with me but it's more important for me to talk about the things I believe in even if I'm risking some sales by doing so which I honestly don't think I'm doing. I think the community here is a very, very strong one. People have opposite opinions and can debate things civiliy and at the end of the day still find common bonds with each other in the form of text sims. I really think there are very few people here who would not buy one of my games that they wanted to simply because of what I believe in and the fact that I'm not afraid to express those beliefs so long as I do it with respect to them as people and respecting the fact that they are free to believe in whatever they like and have whatever opinions they want to.

Schmidty
05-17-2006, 11:38 PM
Just read your link signature link, gary. Are you no longer a member of Grey Dog?

I could never buy a game from a company called Wolverine Studios. no way. :)

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 11:45 PM
Just read your link signature link, gary. Are you no longer a member of Grey Dog?

That is correct - I left GDS about three weeks ago though although there wasn't any big to do about it because a) there wasn't any juicy behind the scenes drama to it and b) I'm not exactly a big name developer in the world of computer games :D

TPG and my future games are going to be done at Wolverine Studios so if you got room for one more site on your bookmark list add mine and check it out every so often.

Gary Gorski
05-17-2006, 11:46 PM
I could never buy a game from a company called Wolverine Studios. no way. :)

What if I called it Overtime Victory Studios? How about then :D

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 12:05 AM
Depends on the type of book it is. Some books, like the Di Vinci Code, takes real life ideas and items to carry the fictional book. Just because he's using real paintings and letting people know they're real paintings and concepts doesn't mean he's touting the story as real.

After all, the idea of the Holy Grail being something other than a cup is far from a new concept. If you're curious, read Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Facinating read.



Well, I'm a Christian, and a Catholic to boot, and I am curious why some of the Apocrypha books were tossed, especially the Gospel of Magdalene. Why the Catholic Church labeled her a prostitute, when there's indications she not only was a Disciple, but the most important one.



Well, I read and enjoyed the book, and my faith is just as strong as it was before. Even if the whole thing is true, to me, it doesn't take anything away from his sacrifice, and his importance to me or to history.

Some will take away from the book an interest in learning more about history, and there's nothing wrong with that. Some will just enjoy a good book, and that's fine too. Either way, allowing people to make up their own minds is the important thing.

Just my take on it.


Holy Crap! I completely agree with WVUFan, right down to our religious background. I'm shaking my head in disbelief.

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 12:07 AM
I think it IS Mary seated at Jesus' right hand, as I believe Mary as the Beloved Disciple. Yeah, contrary to Catholic beliefs, but they downplay her importance.

Also, the Virgin of the Rocks WAS redone -- the original did not distinquish between John the Baptist and Jesus, which coincides with Da Vinci's Gnostic beliefs. The version in the Louvre is the original version, not the retouched.

Double Holy Crap! I agree with WVUFan again. My body is convulsing right now.

WVUFan, I don't know if you have read this, but you have to check this out.

http://ramon_k_jusino.tripod.com/magdalene.html

http://ramon_k_jusino.tripod.com/appendices/john18.htm

WVUFAN
05-18-2006, 12:10 AM
Double Holy Crap! I agree with WVUFan again. My body is convulsing right now.

WVUFan, I don't know if you have read this, but you have to check this out.

http://ramon_k_jusino.tripod.com/magdalene.html

http://ramon_k_jusino.tripod.com/appendices/john18.htm

I'm getting dead links. ;-(

See, I'm not all evil. :-)

- Eric

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 12:20 AM
A couple of additional points.

Since when is it wrong to offend someone (at least in the context of a novel or work of expression). Can we get over the supposed evil of offending people. The funny thing is I am catholic and wasn't the least bit offended by the book. I found it stimulating.

I challenge anyone to prove to me that it is a FACT that Da Vinci did not paint MM in the Last Supper. Only one guy knows and he's dead. I challenge anyone to prove me to that it is a fact that Jesus was not married to MM. I don't believe it myself but it simply is not FACT. It's all based on faith. Actually, that's the whole point of religion.

Finally, it's amazing that some people doubt some of Brown's conclusions but perhaps may believe some NG or Discovery Channel program. The makers of the programs have certain agendas. For instance, may of the programs claim that the Priory of Scion was not founded in 1099, but was a 1950 hoax. However, they completely fail to mention (while other programs do) that An “Order of Sion” was established as part of the Abbey (not Priory) of Our Lady of Mount Zion in 1099, related in some way to Godefroi de Bouillon, King of Jerusalem after the first Crusade. So, you have to understand all sources need to be questioned [that said, it is clear Brown blurred the two organizations together - but what's wrong with that for a story of fiction?]

Enjoy the read. Then discuss. Good fun.

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 12:31 AM
I'm getting dead links. ;-(

See, I'm not all evil. :-)

- Eric

Hmm. I just checked the links again. They're good. Let me see what I can do.

Try again. If no success, let me know. It's a fantastic read from a Catholic Scholar and his thesis that MM is the beloved disciple and author of the 4th gospel. He does it by parsing New Testament language, and with an open mind, could at least convince someone to at least consider that his thesis may be correct. The second article continues his thesis by looking at another portion of the New Testament.

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 12:51 AM
[SIZE="1"]by Ramon K. Jusino, M.A.
© 1998
INTRODUCTION
This article makes a case for ascribing authorship of the Fourth Gospel (the Gospel of John) in the New Testament
to Mary Magdalene. As far as I know -- no previously published work has made an argument in support of this
hypothesis. Most biblical scholars today assert that the Fourth Gospel was authored by an anonymous follower of
Jesus referred to within the Gospel text as the Beloved Disciple. It is posited here that, in an earlier tradition of the
Fourth Gospel's community, the now "anonymous" Beloved Disciple was known to be Mary Magdalene. It is further
posited that Mary Magdalene is the true founder and hero of what has come to be known as the Johannine
Community (i.e., Mary Magdalene was one of the original apostolic founders and leaders of the early Christian
church).
I realize that this hypothesis may seem very radical and perhaps unorthodox to you. However, I believe that it is
well-founded and I respectfully offer the following in support of it. The evidence supporting this thesis includes
some of the Gnostic Christian writings of the Nag Hammadi Library, and internal evidence from the text of the
Fourth Gospel itself. This study also relies heavily on the Johannine Community research done by Raymond E.
Brown (America's foremost Catholic biblical scholar).
I have made every attempt to write this article in such a way that it can be easily followed and understood by those
without prior biblical scholarship knowledge. It is written and dedicated to those who embrace the love of God, who
love and respect the church, and who are open-minded enough to investigate new ideas without feeling threatened
by them. (A Works Cited list is provided for you at the end of this article.)
======================================
To this day, Mary Magdalene remains a most elusive and mysterious figure. Speculation about her role in the
development of early Christianity is not new. She has been the subject of many different theories and myths
throughout ecclesiastical history. Such speculation is the result of the deafening silence from the Scriptures
regarding this woman who is cited by all four Gospels as being present at both the Crucifixion of Jesus and the
Empty Tomb on the morning of the Resurrection. Why is it that we know virtually nothing else about her? Has she
made contributions to the development of the early church of which we are not aware?
Here is a fact that few people seem to know: The Bible never explicitly says that Mary Magdalene was ever a
prostitute at any point in her life. Luke does not name her in his narrative about the "penitent whore" who washes
the feet of Jesus with her hair (7:36-50). Nor is she named as the woman who was caught in the act of adultery and
saved from being stoned to death by Jesus (John 8:1-11). She is identified as once having been demon-possessed
(Luke 8:2). However, the assumption that her sinful past consisted primarily of sexual sin is a presumption that is
not usually made about the men who are identified as former sinners. Susan Haskins has published an excellent
study of the many myths and misconceptions surrounding Mary Magdalene. Her book is a "must read" for anyone
who wishes to do a serious study of the Magdalene.
MY THESIS
We begin by presupposing the following well-settled position: The many positive contributions made by women to
the development of the early church have been minimized throughout history. Claudia Setzer has recently reminded
2
us that women, especially Mary Magdalene, were essential witnesses to the Risen Christ. Setzer (259) asserts that
the prominent role of female disciples was an early and firmly entrenched piece of tradition which quickly became
an embarrassment to the male leaders of the emerging institutional church. Many prominent scholars have argued,
quite convincingly, that there was a concerted effort on the part of the male leadership of the early church to
suppress the knowledge of any major contributions made by female disciples. It is asserted here that much of Mary
Magdalene's legacy fell victim to this suppression.
This study posits the theory that the Fourth Gospel, once universally believed to have been authored by John of
Zebedee, was actually authored by Mary Magdalene. It is further posited that she was the Beloved Disciple of the
Fourth Gospel and, therefore, the founder and leader of what has come to be known as the Johannine Community.
Indeed, there is more evidence pointing to her authorship of the Fourth Gospel than there ever was pointing to
authorship by John.
The research of Raymond E. Brown (1979) is used as the primary basis for this study. Brown's research on the
Johannine Community is clearly second-to-none. He is readily acknowledged by most theologians today as
America's foremost Catholic Scripture scholar. This study does not dispute any of Brown's essential assertions on
this subject. Rather, I use much of Brown's research to substantiate the hypothesis in this article. This study builds
on Brown's research by attempting to identify the author of the Fourth Gospel where Brown does not. At one time,
Brown did argue that the Fourth Gospel was authored by John of Zebedee (1966: xcviii). However, Brown has since
changed his view on this because he found that there was little evidence to support Johannine authorship of this
Gospel (1979: 33).
Mary Magdalene is posited as the author of the Fourth Gospel in the sense in which antiquity defined authorship
(Brown 1990: 1051-1052). The author is the person whose ideas the book expresses, not necessarily the person who
set pen to papyrus (Brown 1966: lxxxvii). According to Brown, the Fourth Gospel was authored by an anonymous
follower of Jesus referred to in the Gospel text as the Beloved Disciple. This Beloved Disciple knew Jesus
personally and was in the originating group of the Johannine Community (Brown 1979: 31). The Fourth Gospel was
based on this disciple's own eyewitness account (John 21:24). Brown identifies several phases in the development of
the Fourth Gospel: 1) the initial pre-Gospel version authored by the Beloved Disciple; 2) the pre-Gospel work
produced by "the evangelist" or main writer; and, 3) the final version written by a redactor after the death of the
Beloved Disciple (1979:22-23).
I assert that Mary Magdalene's contribution to the writing of the Fourth Gospel took place within the first phase of
development identified by Brown -- i.e., the initial pre-Gospel version. The Gospel went through several phases of
modification. The end result of these modifications was the eventual suppression of her role as author of this Gospel
and leader of their community.
THE BELOVED DISCIPLE OF THE FOURTH GOSPEL
Before we go any further, let us take a look at what the Fourth Gospel actually says about this Beloved Disciple. In
the Gospel of John there are seven passages which refer to the beloved anonymous founder of the Johannine
Community. These passages are as follows:
1. (1:35-40) This passage refers to "another disciple" who heard John the Baptist and followed Jesus along with
Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter. Even though this passage does not specifically refer to the disciple as being
loved by Jesus, Brown argues that this passage is a reference to the Beloved Disciple. He says that the disciple is not
referred to as the beloved simply because he is not yet a disciple of Jesus at this point in the story (Brown 1979: 33).
2. (13:23-26) This passage clearly refers to the anonymous disciple as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." The disciple
is sitting next to Jesus during the Last Supper. Peter nods to the disciple to get him to ask Jesus for the identity of his
betrayer. The disciple asks Jesus and Jesus tells him that his betrayer is, of course, going to be Judas Iscariot.
3. (18:15-16) After the arrest of Jesus, the other disciple is allowed to enter the courtyard of the high priest with him.
Peter, on the other hand, was not allowed in at first. Peter was let in only after the other disciple, who was known to
the high priest, spoke to the gatekeeper. The other disciple is not explicitly referred to as the Beloved Disciple.
3
However, Brown asserts that this passage refers to the same disciple whom Jesus loved (1979: 82).
4. (19:25-27) The Beloved Disciple is at the foot of the Cross along with the mother of Jesus, and other women
including Mary Magdalene. Jesus tells the Beloved Disciple to take care of his mother. The disciple is said to have
taken the mother of Jesus into his home.
5. (20:1-11) Peter and the disciple whom Jesus loved run to the Empty Tomb after being told by Mary Magdalene
that the body of the Lord was missing.
6. (21:7) In this passage, several of the disciples are out fishing after the Resurrection of Christ. The Beloved
Disciple is the first to notice that the man who was speaking to them was Jesus. The disciple says to Peter, "It is the
Lord!"
7. (21:20-24) The Beloved Disciple's death is addressed in a conversation between Peter and the Risen Christ. The
passage also asserts that the Gospel was written by the Beloved Disciple and based on his eyewitness testimony.
Chapter 21 was obviously written by a redactor (or editor) after the death of the Beloved Disciple.
You may note at this point that in the above cited passages from the Gospel of John, the Beloved Disciple is clearly
male. Also, in 19:25-27 and 20:1-11 the Beloved Disciple and Mary Magdalene appear in the same scenes
simultaneously. How can I allege that Mary Magdalene is the Beloved Disciple in light of this? The answer will be
addressed in detail below. But for now: The reason that the Beloved Disciple was turned into a man in the text was
because this disciple was clearly the founder and hero of the community that produced this Gospel. At some point
after the death of Jesus, the emerging male leadership of that community simply became embarrassed about having a
female founder. (Remember, we're dealing with male attitudes towards women 2,000 years ago.) In order to
"mainstream" their community, they suppressed some of the more radical practices that Jesus taught them through
his example -- such as treating everyone with equal dignity and respect, including the sick, the poor, the oppressed,
the outcast, and women. Jesus apparently did not object to men and women sharing power and positions of
leadership. Some of his successors, however, were not courageous enough to be so radical. So, in the case of the
Gospel of John, the female Beloved Disciple had to become male. I will elaborate on just how I believe this
happened below.
One fact is very clear: For some reason, the writer of the Gospel of John wanted to keep the identity of the Beloved
Disciple a secret. This disciple was obviously an extremely important figure in the history of their community. Why,
then, is the name of this disciple concealed? Was the goal to protect this disciple from persecution? Hardly -- after
all, the disciple was clearly deceased when the final draft of John's Gospel was produced (21:20-24). Is it possible
that the writer of the final draft had forgotten the name of their beloved founder? Not very likely. This is, indeed, an
interesting mystery.
THE EXTERNAL EVIDENCE
Today, the majority of biblical scholars, both Catholic and Protestant, assert that St. John of Zebedee did not write
the Gospel that bears his name. They ascribe authorship to the "anonymous" Beloved Disciple. So, if the evidence
pointing to John as author of this Gospel is so flimsy -- how, then, did this book become known universally as the
Gospel of John?
The Fourth Gospel was initially accepted earliest by "heterodox" rather than "orthodox" Christians (Brown 1979:
147). The oldest known commentary on the Fourth Gospel is that of the Gnostic Heracleon (d. 180). The Valentinian
Gnostics appropriated the Fourth Gospel to such an extent that Irenaeus of Lyons (d. 202) had to refute their
exegesis of it. Brown well notes the relationship between the Fourth Gospel and the early Christian Gnostics when
he writes that there is "abundant evidence of familiarity with Johannine ideas in the...gnostic library from Nag
Hammadi" (1979: 147). In contrast to this, Brown points out that clear use of the Fourth Gospel in the early church
by "orthodox" sources is difficult to prove (1979: 148). This would seem to suggest that the contents of the Fourth
Gospel, at one point, were not attractive to "orthodox" Christians yet very attractive to Gnostic Christians for some
4
reason. In fact, the earliest indisputable "orthodox" use of the Fourth Gospel was by Theophilus of Antioch, c. 180
A.D., in his Apology to Autolycus. This strong connection between the Fourth Gospel and Gnostic Christians
provides significant support for my thesis.
If you are unfamiliar with Gnostics, I suggest that you look them up. They were branded as heretics by the emerging
institutional church very early on in ecclesiastical history. Of significance to this study is the following: Many
Gnostic groups practiced radical egalitarianism. They believed that God acted and spoke through both men and
women. Both men and women were known to be leaders and/or prophets in their communities. Many men,
including those in the church, felt threatened by them.
The popularity of the Fourth Gospel among Gnostics made it important for the early church to pursue the question of
its apostolic authorship (Perkins: 946). It was Irenaeus who defended the apostolicity of the Fourth Gospel by
appealing to a tradition circulating in Asia Minor which, he claimed, linked John of Zebedee to the Fourth Gospel.
The testimony of Irenaeus, however, makes for very tenuous evidence establishing John of Zebedee as the Fourth
Gospel's author. First of all, it turned out that Irenaeus confused John of Zebedee with a presbyter from Asia Minor
who was also named John. Secondly, Irenaeus claimed that he got his information about Johannine authorship of the
Fourth Gospel when he was a child from Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna (d. 156) (Perkins: 946). The church tradition
that established John as the author of the Fourth Gospel was based, primarily, on Irenaeus' childhood recollections!
It is mainly for this reason, in the absence of other supporting evidence, that the majority of biblical scholars today
assert that John was not the author of the Fourth Gospel.
Brown's research reveals that there was a schism early in the history of the Johannine Community. He posits that the
community divided in two due to an internal christological disagreement. The majority of the community, whom
Brown refers to as the Secessionists, defended the community's high christology and moved toward Docetism,
Montanism, and Gnosticism (Brown 1979: 149). The rest of the community, whom Brown refers to as the Apostolic
Christians, were amalgamated into the emerging institutional church. The Apostolic Christians became accepted as
"orthodox" believers because they were willing to modify their christological beliefs in order to conform to the
teachings of the emerging church hierarchy. The Secessionists, the majority of the Johannine Community, were
quickly labeled as "heretics" by the institutional church because they did not make any such modifications. This
schism took place before the final canonical redaction of the Fourth Gospel. The final redaction that we have today
is the work of an editor belonging to the group which aligned itself with the institutional church. Both groups,
however, took their pre-canonical version of the Fourth Gospel with them after the schism and claimed it as their
own (Brown 1979: 149).
My hypothesis includes the assertion that, at the time of the schism, this pre-canonical version of the Fourth Gospel
clearly identified Mary Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple. The Secessionists, as Brown calls them, preserved the
tradition of the Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple -- the founder and hero of their community. The Secessionists
brought their tradition with them to several Gnostic groups. This explains Mary Magdalene's identification as the
Beloved Disciple in several ancient Gnostic documents from a corpus of literature known as the Nag Hammadi
Library.
The Apostolic Christians, on the other hand, gravitated toward the institutional church and were pressured into
suppressing, among other things, their tradition claiming that a woman was their founder and former leader. The end
result of this suppression is the Fourth Gospel as we have it today.
The following outline charts the events which led to the dissemination of the pre-canonical version of the Fourth
Gospel to both "heterodox" and "orthodox" Christians. It is based on the outline from Brown (1979: 166) on the
history of the Johannine Community:
FIRST STAGE -- (mid-50s to late 80s A.D.): The originating group of the community is led by Mary Magdalene.
She is highly esteemed as the primary witness to the Resurrection of Christ. She is recognized as such even by
believers who do not belong to this particular community. She is known, very early on, as the companion of Jesus,
and the disciple whom Jesus loved. An essential part of their proclamation of the gospel is the fact that Mary
Magdalene was the first to see the Risen Christ.
SECOND STAGE -- (c. 80-90 A.D.): At this point, the community has a version of their Gospel, either written or
5
oral, which includes the tradition that Mary Magdalene was their founder, hero, and leader. Mary Magdalene is
probably deceased by this time. There is a schism in the community which is most likely the result of an internal
dispute about their high christology. The community is divided into two groups which Brown calls the Secessionists,
and the Apostolic Christians.
THIRD STAGE -- (c. 90-100 A.D.):
The Apostolic Christians: As the church becomes a more organized institution, this group is fearful of ostracism and
persecution. They seek amalgamation with the leaders of the emerging institutional church. The claim that a female
disciple of Jesus had been their community's first leader and hero quickly becomes an embarrassment. They need to
obscure that fact if they are to be accepted by the male leadership of the growing organized church. A redactor in
this community reworks their Gospel in order to make it consistent with this obscuration. The result of this redaction
is the canonical Fourth Gospel as we have it today.
The Secessionists: They are the largest of the two groups. They hold on to their tradition which cites Mary
Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple of Jesus. Many members of this community take this tradition to various Gnostic
groups. Their identification of Mary Magdalene as the disciple whom Jesus loved is reflected in the Gnostic
Christian writings of Nag Hammadi -- e.g., the Gospel of Philip and the Gospel of Mary.
The evidence which links authorship of the Fourth Gospel to Mary Magdalene is found in the Gnostic writings of
the Nag Hammadi Library. Of particular interest are the Gospel of Philip and the Gospel of Mary (referring to
Magdalene).
The Nag Hammadi Library was discovered in 1945 in the area of Nag Hammadi in Egypt. Much has been written
about it since its publication in the mid-1970s. This library consists of 4th century Coptic manuscripts which are
copies of manuscripts originally written in Greek. These manuscripts belonged to Gnostic Christians. Most scholars
cite the mid-second century as the earliest plausible date of composition for these documents. However, a few of the
documents are said by some to have been written as early as the late first century -- making them contemporary with
the New Testament Gospels (Haskins: 34). The importance of this 1945 discovery cannot be overstated.
Let's look at a few important excerpts from the Nag Hammadi Library. This first passage comes to us from the
Gospel of Philip:
** And the companion of the [Savior is] Mary Magdalene. [But Christ loved] her more than [all]
the disciples [and used to] kiss her [often] on her [mouth]. The rest of [the disciples were
offended] by it [and expressed disapproval]. They said to him, "Why do you love her more than all
of us?" The Savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you like her? When a blind
man and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When
the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness"
(NHC II.3.63.32ff) (Robinson 1977: 138).**
Another passage from the Gospel of Philip reads as follows:
**There were three who always walked with the Lord: Mary his mother and her sister and
Magdalene, the one who was called his companion. His sister and his mother and his companion
were each a Mary (NHC II.3.59.6-11) (Robinson 1988: 145).**
The Gospel of Mary (referring to the Magdalene) says the following:
**Peter said to Mary, "Sister, we know that the Savior loved you more than the rest of women.
Tell us the words of the Savior which you remember -- which you know (but) we do not, nor have
6
we heard them." Mary answered and said, "What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you."
(NHC BG 8502.1.10.1-8) (Robinson 1988: 525).**
At this point in the text, Mary Magdalene goes on to tell Peter, Andrew, and Levi about her visions of the Risen
Christ and her conversations with the Lord. These visions involve something which she refers to as the seven powers
of wrath (NHC BG 8502.1.16.12-13) (Robinson 1988: 526). After she concludes her discourse about her revelations
from the Lord, the men argue over whether to accept the authenticity of the Magdalene's vision.
The Gospel of Mary concludes as follows:
**When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken
with her. But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, "Say what you (wish to) say about what
she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are
strange ideas." Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things. He questioned them about
the Savior: "Did he really speak with a woman without our knowledge (and) not openly? Are we
to turn about and all listen to her? Did he prefer her to us?"
Then Mary wept and said to Peter, "My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I
thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?" Levi answered and said to
Peter, "Peter, you have always been hot-tempered. Now I see you contending against the woman
like the adversaries. But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely
the Savior knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed
and put on the perfect man and acquire him for ourselves as he commanded us, and preach the
gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said." When [...] and
they began to go forth [to] proclaim and to preach. (NHC BG 8502.1.17.7ff) (Robinson 1988: 526-
527).**
For some reason, there are four pages missing from the account of her revelations in the extant text. In all, ten of the
nineteen pages of the Gospel of Mary are missing (Robinson 1988: 524, 526).
Clearly, these passages establish as indisputable fact that, at least in some ancient gnostic communities, Mary
Magdalene was thought of as having been the "Beloved Disciple" and the companion of the Lord. She is repeatedly
singled out as the disciple whom Jesus loved the most. This would seem to contradict the assertion in the Fourth
Gospel that the male founder of the Johannine Community is "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (John 13:23). How
can there be two strong traditions each identifying two different people as the disciple whom Jesus loved the most?
This begins to make sense only if we explore the possibility that, in reality, both of these traditions are referring to
the same disciple.
EXPLORING POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS
There is no doubt that the Beloved Disciple in the canonical version of the Fourth Gospel is an anonymous male
disciple. Yet, as we have seen, the writings of the Nag Hammadi Library reflect a strong tradition repeatedly naming
Mary Magdalene as the disciple whom Jesus loved. How do we explain this disturbing contradiction? There are only
three possible explanations for this:
7
1. There is no connection between the Fourth Gospel and the Gnostic writings cited here. They simply reflect
two different traditions which cite two different people as Jesus' favorite disciple. This is simply a
coincidence.
2. Brown's explanation: The writers of the Gnostic gospels were influenced by the portrait of Mary
Magdalene as an extraordinary proclaimer of the Resurrected Christ. This portrait of Mary Magdalene
sparked the Gnostic writers to make her the disciple whom Jesus loved most and the chief recipient of postresurrectional
revelation (Brown 1979: 154). In other words, the Gnostic writers spawned a tradition
naming Mary Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple in response to what they had read in the Fourth Gospel.
In this scenario, the canonical Fourth Gospel predates the traditions revealed in the writings of Nag
Hammadi.
3. My thesis: The pre-canonical version of the Fourth Gospel clearly named Mary Magdalene as the disciple
whom Jesus loved, just as the Gnostic writings still do. The Gnostic writings reflect a dependency on the
pre-Gospel text which the "Secessionists" brought to the Gnostic groups after the schism (Brown 1979:
149). The rest of the community, Brown's "Apostolic Christians," also had the same pre-Gospel text. They,
however, redacted their text in order to make it more acceptable to the emerging institutional church which
they wished to join. They quashed references to Mary Magdalene as having been their founder. They,
instead, made references in the text to a "Beloved Disciple," but turned the disciple into an anonymous
male. In two passages of the text, their redaction attempts to make the Beloved Disciple and Mary
Magdalene seem to be two different individuals by having them appear together in the same scenes.
(Structural flaws within those passages, discussed below, support this contention.) They did this because
they knew that the church leaders would not accept the authenticity of a Gospel written by a woman. As
Brown has observed: "The acceptance of the (Fourth) Gospel into the canon...was only at the price of an
assurance that it had apostolic origins" (1979: 149). And, in the worldview of the institutional church
leaders, no woman's ministry could be deemed apostolic.
Of the three possible explanations, it is the third which is most plausible.
The first explanation can be easily refuted. There is most certainly a connection between the Fourth Gospel and the
Gnostic writings cited here. Brown's research shows that the majority of the Johannine Community (the
Secessionists) took a pre-canonical version of the Fourth Gospel with them to the Docetists, the Montanists, and the
Gnostics (1979: 149). In addition to this, as we have seen, the Fourth Gospel was very popular among Gnostics well
before its acceptance and canonization by the institutional church (Perkins: 946). And Brown points out that there is
"abundant evidence of familiarity with Johannine ideas" in the Gnostic writings of Nag Hammadi (1979: 147).
There was obviously much contact between the Johannine Community and Gnostic groups very early on. Therefore,
it cannot be mere coincidence that Mary Magdalene is cited in the Gnostic writings as the "disciple whom Jesus
loved" in much the same way as the anonymous male disciple is cited as such in the Fourth Gospel. The similarities
are too striking to dismiss as unrelated.
In order to refute the second explanation, which comes from Brown, we must carefully analyze the internal evidence
which supports my thesis.
THE INTERNAL EVIDENCE
As previously stated, an important assertion of mine is that a redactor carefully concealed the identity of Mary
Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple, by referring to her only as an anonymous disciple. As the redactor reworked the
8
seven passages cited above which refer to the Beloved Disciple, he simply changed any reference to Mary
Magdalene by substituting it with an anonymous reference to the Beloved Disciple or to "another disciple." For most
of the document this was fairly easy to do and the resulting text appeared to be congruous. Instead of seeing the
Magdalene's name, the reader is simply presented with the anonymous male disciple.
Removing references to Mary Magdalene from most of the story was easy. However, in the course of his work, the
redactor was confronted with a problem. The tradition placing Mary Magdalene at the foot of the Cross and at the
Empty Tomb on Sunday morning was too strong to deny. The Magdalene's presence at both of these events was
common knowledge among most early Christian communities. (This is evidenced by the fact that all three of the
other New Testament Gospels report her presence at these events.) The redactor could not simply omit any reference
to the Magdalene at the Crucifixion or any reference to her as a primary witness to the Resurrection. However, the
redactor still wanted to establish the Beloved Disciple as the founder of his community and as an eyewitness to these
major events in the work of salvation. This way, he could still maintain that the founder of his community was an
eyewitness to the events in the Gospel even though he inexplicably fails to reveal his identity (John 21:24).
At this point, the redactor probably asked himself a question very similar to this one: How can I suppress the
knowledge of Mary Magdalene having been the founder of our community without being so obvious as to remove
her from the Crucifixion/Resurrection accounts, with which most Christians are already familiar?
The redactor's solution to this problem was actually quite simple. In those two events where he could not deny the
presence of the Magdalene, he would rework the text so as to make it appear as if Mary Magdalene and the Beloved
Disciple were two different people appearing simultaneously in the same place, at the same time. Consequently,
Mary Magdalene and the male Beloved Disciple appear together in the Fourth Gospel in only two passages -- 19:25-
27 (at the foot of the Cross) and 20:1-11 (at the Empty Tomb on Sunday morning). ...Isn't that interesting? And it is
precisely at these two points that we find some major structural inconsistencies within the text of the Fourth Gospel.
Brown discusses the inconsistencies in both of these passages. (That shows that I'm not just reading inconsistencies
into passages that have none.) Notably, Brown finds no such structural defects in any of the other passages which
contain references to the Beloved Disciple.
STRUCTURAL INCONSISTENCIES IN THE FOURTH GOSPEL
The passage from the Fourth Gospel which has Mary Magdalene and the Beloved Disciple together at the foot of the
Cross reads as follows:
**Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary
Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he
said... (John 19:25ff)**
I cut the passage here in order to make a point. The structure of this pericope is very puzzling. In the first sentence
(v. 25) we read a list of women standing by the Cross of Jesus. In the second sentence (v. 26) the writer seems to
refer to the aforementioned list of women at the Cross when he calls one of them "the disciple whom (Jesus) loved."
If one were to read only the portion of the passage cited above, one would readily assume that the Beloved Disciple
is one of the women standing by the cross with Jesus' mother. (Read it over to yourself and see if you don't agree.)
The entire passage reads as follows:
**Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary
Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he
said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother."
From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. (John 19:25-27)**
9
The original pre-Gospel version of this passage probably referred to Mary Magdalene as the disciple whom Jesus
loved. Through the use of masculine determiners and cases (in Greek), the redactor was able to change the Beloved
Disciple into the anonymous male seemingly in mid-thought. The structure of this passage seems a little forced and
indicates that it was probably altered as I have asserted.
Brown in no way posits the thesis proposed by me here. However, he did notice the inconsistency between v. 25 and
vss. 26-27. At one point in his discussion of this passage he questions why the Beloved Disciple was not included in
the list of people standing by the cross in v. 25 (Brown 1970: 922). He noted that the mother of Jesus and the
Beloved Disciple were not listed by the other three Gospels as having stood by the cross. He concluded that the
mother of Jesus "was specifically mentioned in the tradition that came to the evangelist, as seen in vs. 25, but that
the reference to the Beloved Disciple...is a supplement to the tradition" (Brown 1970: 922). Brown sensed, for
reasons other than those posited here, that the "Beloved Disciple" seemed oddly out of place in this passage.
If we compare John 19:25-27 with the passage from the Gospel of Philip cited previously, we notice some striking
similarities.
**There were three who always walked with the Lord: Mary his mother and her sister and
Magdalene, the one who was called his companion. His sister and his mother and his companion
were each a Mary (NHC II.3.59.6-11) (Robinson 1988: 145).**
The Gospel of Philip makes reference to the same group of women that are standing by the Cross in the Fourth
Gospel. However, the Gospel of Philip clearly cites Mary Magdalene as the "companion" of Jesus. Brown's
explanation for this similarity is that the Gnostic writers were somehow influenced by the Fourth Gospel into
making Mary Magdalene the disciple whom Jesus loved the most (1979: 154). In other words, as stated previously,
he argues that what we read in the Gospel of Philip is a reaction to what is written in the canonical Fourth Gospel.
This is highly unlikely. Asserting that the writer of the Gospel of Philip responded in this way to the Fourth Gospel
does not explain why the structural inconsistency appears in this Fourth Gospel passage in the first place.
Furthermore, Brown argues that the Gnostics made Mary Magdalene into the Beloved Disciple in response to her
portrayal in the Fourth Gospel. However, he does not attempt to explain why the name of the Beloved Disciple in
the Fourth Gospel is veiled in secrecy in the first place. I believe that the more plausible explanation is that the
Gnostic literature cited here reflects the earlier tradition. The redactor of the Fourth Gospel modified that tradition
for the reasons stated above.
The Fourth Gospel passage which has Mary Magdalene and the Beloved Disciple together at the Empty Tomb reads
as follows:
**Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and
saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and
the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and
we don't know where they have put him!"
So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. Both were running, but the other disciple
outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying
there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb.
He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head.
The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. Finally, the other disciple, who had
reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. (They still did not understand from
Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) Then the disciples went back to their homes, but
Mary stood outside the tomb crying. (John 20:1-11)**
10
The structural inconsistencies in this passage are glaring. In his discussion of this pericope Brown observes that
"there are an extraordinary number of inconsistencies that betray the hand of an editor who has achieved
organization by combining disparate material" (1970: 995). This pericope has also been described as containing
"both high drama and confused choreography" (Setzer: 262).
In his comments on John 20:1-11, Brown cites several inconsistencies. One, in particular, that is worth looking at for
the purposes of this study is this observation by Brown: "It is not clear when or how Magdalene got back to the tomb
in (v.) 11" (1970: 995). Brown notices that there is a broken trail in the travels of Mary Magdalene from one place to
another in this pericope:
• In v. 2 Mary Magdalene runs AWAY from the tomb to Peter and the "other disciple" to tell them that the
body of Jesus was missing from the tomb. At this point, Mary Magdalene is AWAY from the tomb along
with Peter and the "other disciple."
• In v. 3 Peter and the "other disciple" run to the tomb. Mary Magdalene is not mentioned as having returned
to the tomb with the two men. She has stayed behind -- still AWAY from the tomb.
• In v. 11 Mary Magdalene is abruptly portrayed as remaining behind weeping at the tomb. However, there is
no account of her returning to the tomb in this scene after telling Peter and the "other disciple" that the body
of Jesus was missing.
When did Mary Magdalene return to the tomb? The reader loses track of her trail between v. 2 and v. 11. Brown
noticed this (1970: 995). I assert that this inconsistency is due to the insertion of her alter ego, the male Beloved
Disciple, in vss. 2 thru 10. It is obvious that this passage has had some extensive re-editing done to it. The redactor's
effort to conceal the identity of Mary Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple, and make two individuals out of one, has
created a muddled account of the Magdalene's whereabouts between vss. 2 and 10 in this passage.
Brown maintains that this passage "has undergone considerable development" (1970: 1001). He considers the
possibility that Luke 24:12 reflects an earlier tradition in which Peter runs to the tomb without the other disciple. A
pre-canonical version of the Fourth Gospel may have reflected this before the redactor reworked it. Brown asserts
that the insertion of the Beloved Disciple into the scene in John 20 was the work of the redactor. In fact, he
maintains that it is precisely the introduction of the Beloved Disciple into this text that has caused the
inconsistencies which I've discussed here (Brown 1970: 1001).
Setzer describes the insertion of the Beloved Disciple in this passage as a "contrivance" (262). She notes, as does
Brown, that the account of Peter and the Beloved Disciple running to the tomb together is "sandwiched between"
Mary Magdalene's initial discovery of the Empty Tomb and her first encounter with the Risen Jesus. She asserts that
this "contrivance" let the Gospel retain the tradition that Mary Magdalene was the first to discover the Empty Tomb
while still giving the Beloved Disciple prominence as the first person to reach the Empty Tomb and believe that
Jesus has risen (Setzer: 262).
Setzer's observation is very consistent with the hypothesis that I've proposed here. My thesis also alleges a
contrivance on the part of the final editor of the Fourth Gospel. The redactor wanted to maintain that the Gospel was
based on the eyewitness testimony of his community's founder and hero. However, he did not wish to admit that this
founder and hero was a woman. Yet, he could not very well deny Mary Magdalene's presence at the Crucifixion and
the Empty Tomb. So, his "contrivance," as Setzer puts it, was to change Mary Magdalene into an anonymous male
disciple throughout the text except in those places where he could not deny her presence due to the strong prior
tradition to the contrary. In those scenes, he placed the Beloved Disciple and Mary Magdalene together in the same
passages. This accounts for the structural inconsistencies, the confused choreography, and the apparent contrivance.
One other inconsistency which Brown points out (1970: 995) is worth noting here:
11
**Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and
believed. (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) (John
20:8-9)**
The contrast between "he saw and believed" in v. 8 and "they still did not understand" in v. 9 is peculiar. Verse 9 is
clearly making reference to verse 8. However, the reference is contradictory. This appears to be an attempt to blend
two different traditions: one in which the disciples did not immediately understand, or believe in, the Resurrection
(Matthew 28:17; Mark 16:11,13; Luke 24:11), and another in which Mary Magdalene, changed here to the "other
disciple," instantly perceives the truth (Matthew 28:1,8; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:10).
ADDITIONAL SUPPORTING EVIDENCE
Brown draws many conclusions in his research which are consistent with my thesis. Indeed, everything in Brown's
profile of the Beloved Disciple is compatible with what is known about Mary Magdalene -- that is, except for her
gender.
Brown notes that "the Johannine attitude toward women was quite different from that attested in other first-century
Christian churches." He adds: "The unique place given to women (as proclaimers) in the Fourth Gospel reflects the
history, the theology, and the values of the Johannine community" (Brown 1979: 183). May I respectfully suggest an
additional explanation? Perhaps, the unique place given to women in the Fourth Gospel is due to its having been
originally authored by a woman.
Brown suggests that the Johannine picture becomes more understandable if the Beloved Disciple had been a disciple
of John the Baptist, and if the disciple began to follow Jesus when Jesus was in fellowship with the Baptist (1979:
32-34). This is certainly a plausible scenario which does not contradict my thesis.
Brown also notes that the Fourth Gospel contains many accurate references to Holy Land places and customs (1979:
22). These references suggest eyewitness authorship by someone who lived in the Holy Land before the destruction
of the Temple in A.D. 70. All of these observations by Brown are consistent with a paradigm that includes Mary
Magdalene as the author of the Fourth Gospel.
Another factor which tends to support my thesis is the "one-upmanship" of the Beloved Disciple in relation to Peter
in the Fourth Gospel (Brown 1979: 31). The juxtapositional relationship between Peter and the Beloved Disciple in
the Fourth Gospel is very similar to the relationship between Peter and Mary Magdalene in the Nag Hammadi
Corpus. This suggests that the redactor of the Fourth Gospel changed Mary Magdalene into the anonymous male
disciple but kept the competition motif between the disciple and Peter.
Brown has observed that very often in the Fourth Gospel the Beloved Disciple is explicitly contrasted with Peter.
Some of the examples that he points out (Brown 1979: 82-83) are as follows:
• in 13:23-26 the Beloved Disciple is resting on Jesus' chest while Peter has to petition the Disciple to ask
Jesus a question for him;
• in 18:15-16 the Beloved Disciple has access to the high priest's palace while Peter does not;
• in 20:2-10 the Beloved Disciple immediately believes in the Resurrection while Peter and the rest of the
disciples do not understand;
• in 21:7 the Beloved Disciple is the only one who recognizes the Risen Christ while he speaks from the
shore to the disciples on their fishing boat;
• in 21:20-23 Peter jealously asks Jesus about the fate of the Beloved Disciple.
12
The writings of the Nag Hammadi Library contain this same kind of "one-upmanship" between Peter and Mary
Magdalene:
• the Gospel of Mary portrays Peter as being jealous of the revelations that the Magdalene got from the Risen
Christ (NHC BG 8502.1.17.7ff) (Robinson 1988: 526-527);
• the Gospel of Thomas has Peter saying the following about the Magdalene: "Let Mary leave us, for women
are not worthy of life" (NHC II.2.51.19-20) (Robinson 1988: 138);
• in the Gospel of Philip the relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalene is contrasted with Jesus'
relationship with the rest of the disciples (NHC II.3.63.32ff) (Robinson 1977: 138; 1988: 148);
• similar examples of Peter being upstaged by Mary Magdalene occur in the Gospel of the Egyptians and
Pistis Sophia (Gnostic documents found prior to the discovery of the Nag Hammadi Library).
CONCLUDING REMARKS
Positing Mary Magdalene as author of the Fourth Gospel does not challenge its apostolic origin. If Mary Magdalene
was the leader and hero of the Fourth Gospel's community, then she was probably recognized as an Apostle within
that community. Indeed, in recognition of the fact that she was the first to proclaim the Resurrection of Christ, the
Roman Catholic Church has honored her with the title apostola apostolorum which means "the apostle to the
apostles."
In proposing this thesis I am certainly not challenging the integrity of the Fourth Gospel. Nor do I impute specious
intent upon any of the Gospel's redactors. It is well known today that the Bible is replete with pseudonymous
writings: a common practice in antiquity which was not viewed as dishonest. Despite the redactions and the
inconsistencies they may have caused -- the intention of the author, the evangelist, and any subsequent redactors was
to proclaim the gospel "in such fashion that they told us the honest truth about Jesus" (Dei Verbum, n. 19) (Abbott:
124). They also preserved "without error that truth which God wanted put into the sacred writings for the sake of our
salvation" (Dei Verbum, n. 11) (Abbott: 119). In other words, in concealing the identity of the Beloved Disciple, or
making that disciple male rather than female, the redactor was not tampering with any essential tenet of the gospel
of Jesus. Therefore, the redactor of the Fourth Gospel was still dispensing the Truth.
Readers should also refrain from assuming or inferring that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had any kind of illicit
amorous relationship based on any of the readings cited here. We should not be too quick to look at ancient literature
through a "modern lens."
I am certainly making no claim of possessing the final word on this issue. However, the conclusions of this study do
not come under the rubric of the "overly imaginative deductions about ecclesiastical history" that Brown warns us
about (1979: 19). There are some very compelling reasons for considering the possibility of Mary Magdalene's
authorship of the Fourth Gospel:
• there is solid extrabiblical documentary evidence which establishes a strong tradition among, at least some,
Gnostic Christians naming Mary Magdalene as the disciple whom Jesus loved the most. This is strong
external evidence which corroborates the identification of Mary Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple;
• there is a well-established historical link between the Fourth Gospel and Gnostic Christians which predates
both the canonization of the Fourth Gospel and the ascription of its authorship to John of Zebedee (Perkins:
946). This corroborates the hypothesis which says that the Secessionists of the Johannine Community
brought their pre-canonical Fourth Gospel with them into the Gnostic Christian communities after the
schism;
• there is the strong internal evidence which shows extensive structural inconsistencies in the two passages of
the Fourth Gospel which contain both Mary Magdalene and the Beloved Disciple appearing together. This
13
corroborates the hypothesis which says that a redactor re-edited prior pre-canonical versions of the Fourth
Gospel as discussed above;
• the "one-upmanship" of the Beloved Disciple in relation to Peter in the Fourth Gospel is very similar to the
relationship between Peter and Mary Magdalene in the Nag Hammadi Corpus. This helps to corroborate the
hypothesis which says that the Fourth Gospel's Beloved Disciple and Mary Magdalene are, in reality, one
and the same;
• there are many accurate references in the Fourth Gospel to Holy Land places and customs which denote
eyewitness authorship by someone who lived in the Holy Land before the destruction of the Temple in
A.D. 70 (Brown 1979: 22). Mary Magdalene was most certainly in a position to give very vivid and
accurate eyewitness accounts of the events depicted in the Fourth Gospel. This might explain some striking
differences between the Fourth Gospel and the Synoptic Gospels which, according to most biblical
scholars, were pseudonymous and not written by eyewitnesses;
• the unique place given to women as proclaimers in the Fourth Gospel was quite different from that of other
first-century Christian churches (Brown 1979: 183). This is very consistent with the hypothesis which says
that the Fourth Gospel was, in fact, authored by a woman -- i.e., Mary Magdalene.
Well...I hope that the preceding material has been a "good read" for you. I know that my hypothesis will seem very
radical to you -- at least at first. However, before you dismiss it, I want you to consider a few things.
Does this thesis seem radical to you only because I propose that a woman authored one of the four Holy Gospels in
the Bible? If I had a thesis which proposed that Bartholomew, or Andrew, or James, or any of the other male
apostles authored the Fourth Gospel instead of John -- would that be considered very radical? Probably not. In fact,
the church has no problem with the prevailing scholarship which says that a man whose name we don't even know
wrote one of the most sacred Christian documents. Imagine -- even a nameless man is preferable to a woman.
What about all of the evidence that I have reviewed for you? Compare that to the basis for which authorship of the
Fourth Gospel has been ascribed to John of Zebedee for almost 2,000 years. Most biblical scholars reject that
evidence today. (Remember? It was the childhood recollections of Irenaeus.) That is why John's Gospel is
considered anonymous by them today. But, alas, the standard of proof for establishing a woman as the author of a
Gospel is much, much higher. Gnostic documents and structural inconsistencies notwithstanding -- the church-atlarge
will probably never acknowledge Mary Magdalene as an author of a New Testament Gospel.
Perhaps things haven't really changed that much since the earliest days of the church. Maybe authorship of a Gospel
by a woman is still the embarrassment that Setzer says it would have been 2,000 years ago.
Here's something else to think about: Why is Mary Magdalene the most famous harlot in the world when the Bible
never says that she was ever a prostitute at any time? Oh, you are sure you recall reading that in the Bible, are you?
...Find it. Send me the biblical citation and I will post it on this website. You'll find my e-mail address further down.
Raymond Brown has likened the quest to identify the author of the Fourth Gospel to a good detective story (1966:
lxxxvii). A good detective sifts through evidence which is relevant and discards that which is not. When the
evidence begins to point in a certain direction, he or she pursues leads and explores all of the various explanations
and alibis. When one theory emerges as plausible and more credible than any other, the detective draws a conclusion
that usually involves the naming of a suspect or suspects. The evidence supporting authorship of the Fourth Gospel
by Mary Magdalene is much stronger than that which established John of Zebedee as its author for nearly two
thousand years. After careful consideration of the evidence cited herein, I respectfully submit that the "prime
suspect" in any quest to identify the author of the Fourth Gospel should be Mary Magdalene.
14
WORKS CITED
Abbott, Walter M., gen. ed.
1966. The Documents of Vatican II. New York: Guild Press.
Brown, Raymond E.
1979. The Community of the Beloved Disciple. New York: Paulist Press.
1970. The Gospel According to John (xiii-xxi). New York: Doubleday & Co.
1966. The Gospel According to John (i-xii). New York: Doubleday & Co.
Brown, Raymond E., and Raymond F. Collins.
1990. Canonicity, pp. 1034-1054 in The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond E. Brown,
et al. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall.
Haskins, Susan.
1993. Mary Magdalen: Myth and Metaphor. New York: Harper Collins.
Perkins, Pheme.
1990. The Gospel According to John, pp. 942-985 in The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by
Raymond E. Brown, et al. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall.
Robinson, James M., gen. ed.
1988. The Nag Hammadi Library in English. Revised edition. San Francisco, CA: Harper & Row.
1977. The Nag Hammadi Library in English. San Francisco, CA: Harper & Row.
Setzer, Claudia.
1997. Excellent Women: Female Witnesses to the Resurrection, Journal of Biblical Literature 116:259-272.
===================================
Copyright © 1998 -- Ramon K. Jusino
My e-mail address: [email][email protected][/email]
All biblical citations taken from HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION - © 1973, 1978 by the
International Bible Society, used by permission of Zondervan Bible Publishers.
Posted: 07/13/98
[url]www.BelovedDisciple.org[/url]
[/SIZE]

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 12:54 AM
The Beloved Disciple in John 18:15-18
By Ramon K. Jusino, M.A.© 2004 This essay is an appendix to an article I published in 1998 entitled -- Mary Magdalene: Author of the Fourth Gospel? It can be accessed free of charge at www.BelovedDisciple.org In that article, I make a case for ascribing authorship of the Fourth Gospel (the Gospel of John) in the New Testament to Mary Magdalene. I therefore posit that she is the Beloved Disciple of the Fourth Gospel. For a full account of my thesis, please visit my website and download the 1998 article. This essay is a continuation of that research. It is assumed that the reader is familiar with the thesis. Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple. As this disciple was known to the high priest, he entered the court of the high priest along with Jesus, while Peter stood outside at the door. So the other disciple, who was known to the high priest, went out and spoke to the maid who kept the door, and brought Peter in. The maid who kept the door said to Peter, "Are not you also one of this man's disciples?" He said, "I am not." Now the servants and officers had made a charcoal fire, because it was cold, and they were standing and warming themselves; Peter also was with them, standing and warming himself (John 18:15-18 RSV). Now Simon Peter was standing and warming himself. They said to him, "Are not you also one of his disciples?" He denied it and said, "I am not." One of the servants of the high priest, a kinsman of the man whose ear Peter had cut off, asked, "Did I not see you in the garden with him?" Peter again denied it; and at once the cock crowed (John 18:25-27 RSV). In this passage, according to my thesis, we have a scenario in which Mary Magdalene accompanies Jesus into the home of the Jewish high priest, Caiaphas, after the arrest of Jesus. Caiaphas knows Mary Magdalene to be a follower of Jesus. He does not seem to know Peter as a disciple of Jesus. Peter goes on to deny that he even knows Jesus at all. Mary Magdalene is allowed to accompany Jesus as he is brought in to the home of Caiaphas by the arresting officers. Peter waits outside. After a while, Mary Magdalene comes out, speaks to the woman who is guarding the door, and Peter is invited in. Peter then refuses to enter after the woman at the door asks him if he is a disciple of Jesus. He denies it. Peter is obviously afraid of being arrested. He waits outside where he is questioned further about whether he is a disciple of Jesus by Caiaphas' staff. Is it likely that this is what happened? Upon further examination we'll see that this interpretation is more plausible than the ways that this passage is usually interpreted. John 18:15-18 raises some very interesting questions indeed about the identity of the Beloved Disciple. It should be noted first that the disciple is referred to three times in this passage -- once as "another disciple," once as "this disciple," and once as "the other disciple." As is the case throughout the Gospel, the disciple is never explicitly identified. Some scholars maintain that the disciple in this passage is not necessarily the same person who is referred to elsewhere in the Gospel as the disciple whom Jesus loved. This is a possibility. But I side with the scholars who say that this disciple is the same as the Beloved Disciple. After carefully scrutinizing this passage anew for this essay, I hope to establish that this portion of the text makes little sense if the disciple were, indeed, St. John of Zebedee, or any other male disciple. Let's take a look at it from various angles to see if my thesis about it has any merit. Verse 15 starts out by telling us that Simon Peter was with Jesus along with "another disciple." According to my thesis, Peter would have been following Jesus along with Mary Magdalene. Jesus had just been arrested by a band of soldiers in the Garden of Gethsemane. We are told that the disciple was known to the high priest. This probably means that the high priest already knew the disciple to be a follower of Jesus. He probably did not know Peter to be one of Jesus' followers. So, he therefore would have known Mary Magdalene to be a follower and companion of Jesus. She goes in to the home of the high priest with Jesus while Peter waits outside. Mary Magdalene comes out, talks to the woman who was the gatekeeper, and identifies Peter as one who should be allowed in. However, something very important happens here. It appears that Peter does not, in fact, go in at all. As Peter is walking in, the female gatekeeper asks Peter if he is one of Jesus' followers (John 18:17). Peter, overcome with fear, denies knowing Jesus at all. As a result of the gatekeeper's question, he apparently got "cold feet" about going in to be with Jesus. Peter instead decides to stay outside where some of the high priest's staff are warming themselves over a fire (John 18:18). The people outside also ask him whether he is a follower of Jesus (John 18:25-27). He continues to deny it. The Gospel of Mark tells us that Peter followed "at a distance"(Mark 14:54). Perhaps we can infer, then, that Mary Magdalene accompanied Jesus as he was being arrested while Peter followed along at a distance. Mark also tells us something very important. Peter did not simply deny knowing Jesus in a matter-of- fact way. He was terrified of being identified as a follower of Jesus. Mark tells us that Peter "began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear" that he did not know Jesus (Mark 14:71). Peter was saying something to this effect: "No! As God is my witness, I do not know this man!! May God strike me dead and condemn me forever if I am lying to you!!" It was at this point that the cock crowed; a reminder to Peter that Jesus already knew that Peter would let him down. Can you imagine how torn up inside Peter must have felt about this? He wanted to do the right thing but, at the same time, he knew he was too afraid to do it. He could do nothing more than run home and face his own cowardice. Why was Peter so terrified? Peter had good reason to be afraid. He knew that, as a follower of Jesus, he would also be arrested and probably crucified along with Jesus as a co-conspirator. Neither he, nor any of the other male disciples were safe. The soldiers wanted to arrest all of the male disciples along with Jesus in the garden. However, Jesus gave himself up to arrest and told the soldiers, "...if you seek me, let these men go."(John 18:8). This heroic gesture by Jesus bought the disciples some time to get away and hide. As Matthew tells us: "Then all the disciples forsook him and fled"(Matthew 26:56). All of the disciples forsook Jesus and ran away in fear. Peter himself followed Jesus surreptitiously because he was afraid of being arrested. How do we, then, explain the fact that this "other" male disciple was not afraid to walk in alongside Jesus into the home of the high priest? Was this disciple the only man among Jesus' followers willing to face the high priest? If so, why do we not know this hero's name? Why was he not the leader of the disciples then, instead of Peter? And, perhaps most significantly, why do the other three New Testament Gospels make no mention of this man whatsoever? The answer may be very simple. The female followers of Jesus were not subject to arrest in this case. As a rule, women were not crucified or ever charged as revolutionaries or dissidents. Sometimes the Romans did, indeed, crucify women. But, as is still the case today, a woman who got the death penalty was the rare exception rather than the rule. It is for this reason that it was the women who were by the Cross with Jesus while the men were hiding in fear. It is also for this reason that it was the women who went to the Tomb on Sunday morning while the men were still hiding in fear. Remember, Jesus said to the soldiers, "...if you seek me, let these men go."(John 18:8 emphasis added). It was the men who were being arrested. Only the male disciples needed to be afraid of arrest and/or execution. I submit, then, that the reason the "other disciple" had no fear of arrest and execution was that, being a woman, she knew that it probably would not happen. She was admitted to accompany Jesus as would, perhaps, a member of his family. The strength of my thesis is that it provides very plausible motives for otherwise unexplained or mysterious behavior on the part of some key figures described in the Fourth Gospel (and the other Gospels as well). This passage is no different. Most Bible scholars seem to gloss over this passage without asking some very important questions. Asking the right questions is crucial if one ever hopes to get the right answers. It's simply a matter of establishing motive. When we see actions within these texts that seem a bit peculiar, we should usually begin by asking ourselves, "Why would anyone do that?" After researching the various theories about the identity of the Beloved Disciple, I found that none of them provided a convincing reason for the anonymity of the disciple within the Gospel text. I asked myself, "Why would the final redactor(s) of the Gospel be so intent on concealing the name of this disciple while, at the same time, lauding the disciple's prominent role in the ministry of Jesus?" Some scholars suggested the modesty of the Beloved Disciple as a reason. Others have suggested that the identity of the disciple was concealed to protect him, and possibly his family, from persecution. But these reasons, and others that have been suggested, do not really provide us with a plausible motivational hypothesis. The theory that the Beloved Disciple was Mary Magdalene, on the other hand, provides very convincing explanations for many of the odd and inconsistent accounts about the disciple. This passage describes one of several examples of the Beloved Disciple upstaging Peter in a very significant way. The Beloved Disciple was probably a follower of John the Baptist before Jesus began his public ministry. Many scholars contend that the Beloved Disciple was probably the anonymous disciple who was called to follow Jesus before Peter was called (John 1:35-42). So, the Beloved Disciple probably knew Jesus longer than Peter did and became a disciple before he did. The Beloved Disciple sat next to Jesus at the Last Supper while Peter did not (John 13:23). The Beloved Disciple was by the Cross of Jesus while Peter was not (John 19:26). The Beloved Disciple believed in the Risen Jesus before Peter did (John 20:8). And, in this passage, the Beloved Disciple has the courage to stand by Jesus in his hour of need by going boldly into the home of the high priest with Jesus while Peter waits outside. It is worth pointing out here that none of the four canonical New Testament Gospels names any of the male disciples as having the courage to stand with Jesus as he was being arrested and crucified. By all accounts, they were in hiding even after Jesus had Risen from the dead on the Sunday morning following his death. It stands to reason then that, if any of the Apostles had stood by Jesus when he was being arrested or crucified, the Gospel texts would have lauded their heroism. They would have been named. If St. John of Zebedee was the disciple who went into the home of Caiaphas with Jesus -- and was also standing by the Cross with Jesus -- why then does the Gospel not clearly identify him as doing so? Some say that John was just being modest and wrote the Gospel in such a way as to minimize his own heroic role. However, the other three New Testament Gospels (the "Synoptics") do not mention John as being with Jesus during those dangerous days either. Neither do they mention any mysterious "beloved disciple." In fact, the four New Testament Gospels are very clear in pointing out that it was the female disciples, not the men, who stood by Jesus. The Fourth Gospel does seem, at a glance, to say that a male disciple stood by the Cross of Jesus and was with him when Jesus went in to the home of the high priest. But, interestingly enough, this "male disciple" remains anonymous in the Fourth Gospel? ...Why? The Fourth Gospel obscures the identity and gender of the Beloved Disciple because the disciple was a woman. This scene from the Fourth Gospel definitely deserves further investigation. We've all heard the story of how Peter denied Jesus before the cock crowed. But, not many people realize that Mary Magdalene may have played a pivotal role in this important Bible story. Copyright © 2004 -- Ramon K. JusinoMy e-mail address: [email protected] Posted on February 21, 2004

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 12:54 AM
How's that. Try pasting to a bigger font in Word.

I think that's a quintuple dola. You know I floated this out there to get others curious. I hope the ideas are not too offensive to some.

GabeRivers
05-18-2006, 02:09 AM
I think it IS Mary seated at Jesus' right hand, as I believe Mary as the Beloved Disciple. Yeah, contrary to Catholic beliefs, but they downplay her importance.

Da Vinci prepared a number of sketchs in preparing to paint the Last Supper. Twenty of those drawings are included in a collection that has been kept at the Royal Library at Windsor Castle since 1600. He made numerous notes on some of these drawings, and on one of them he has handwritten the names above the heads of the apostles. The name above the apostle to the right of Jesus is "John" -- just as the figure has always been described by Christians.

That being said, Da Vinci was of course not present at the event depicted in the painting. However, the New Testament clearly names the 12 disciples (apostles), and those are the people that the scriptures referring to the actual occurrence indicate were present (Luke 22:14: "When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table."). According to scripture, none of the chosen 12 were women.

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 02:44 AM
Of course, he's not going to "say" it's Mary in his sketches for obvious reasons. If he held Gnostic beliefs, though, he just sneaks it in. I think when you look at the painting, you can't just dismiss out of hand it could be a woman. And the point here again, is that you can't say it's a FACT that Da Vinci did not paint a woman.

As for the New Testament passages you discuss, if you read what I posted above you will see where we are going with this in terms of MM being the beloved disciple and thus at the table. The 4 gospels could have been modified to remove MM from the table. (N.B. "The 'Beloved Disciple' [no name used] sat next to Jesus at the Last Supper while Peter did not (John 13:23) is the perfect example). If you believe MM is the beloved disciple, then that passage is directly stating MM was at the table next to JC. Again, the point here is that you cannot prove as a FACT that MM was not at the table. Thus, it's left up to everyone's belief based on the New Testament and other gospels that were not included.

I also make clear that while I believe this may be true, I do not believe JC and MM were married. But I will also say that it cannot be proved as FACT that they were not married. It is again up to each individual's belief on this.

Groundhog
05-18-2006, 03:08 AM
As for the New Testament passages you discuss, if you read what I posted above you will see where we are going with this in terms of MM being the beloved disciple and thus at the table. The 4 gospels would have been modified to remove MM from the table. Again, the point here is that you cannot prove as a FACT that MM was not at the table. Thus, it's left up to everyone's belief based on the New Testament and other gospels that were not included.


See, the mere fact that this is possible (information removed/altered in the bible) makes it very difficult for me to place much stock in this book as the word of God. Who knows what remains of the original? The men who compiled it all had agendas.

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 03:40 AM
Yes and no. I don't think you have to jump to the conclusion that the substance of the bible was altered to any great effect just because some alterations were made with identities, etc. But yes, it can undoubtedly lead some to believe there were even greater alterations. And that's where faith comes into play.

I just find certain things interesting. I went to catechism (as any good catholic boy did in his early years) and absolutely, positively was told that MM was a prostitute. Even though years before, the church itself had stated this was not the case. I was also told that John wrote the 4th gospel (I mean heck it has his name). But now I am starting to learn that while the church may not believe MM wrote it, they pretty much believe it wasn't written by John. Why didn't anybody tell me these things? Those kinds of things don't help church traditionalists defend their view of the bible. However, I don't believe you throw the baby out with the bathwater, but I can see how some can think about doing it.

Groundhog
05-18-2006, 04:36 AM
Yes and no. I don't think you have to jump to the conclusion that the substance of the bible was altered to any great effect just because some alterations were made with identities, etc. But yes, it can undoubtedly lead some to believe there were even greater alterations. And that's where faith comes into play.

I would consider any alteration at all to be quite major considering it is supposed to be the word of God - especially the changing of identities. Agreed that faith does have to come in to play with this point.

I just find certain things interesting. I went to catechism (as any good catholic boy did in his early years) and absolutely, positively was told that MM was a prostitute. Even though years before, the church itself had stated this was not the case. I was also told that John wrote the 4th gospel (I mean heck it has his name). But now I am starting to learn that while the church may not believe MM wrote it, they pretty much believe it wasn't written by John. Why didn't anybody tell me these things? Those kinds of things don't help church traditionalists defend their view of the bible. However, I don't believe you throw the baby out with the bathwater, but I can see how some can think about doing it.

Back when I was in high school we had scripture teachers come in to talk to us about once every 2 years or so. One time after one particular scripture teacher had finished talking to my class he asked us if anyone had any questions. One kid asked him "How do you know for sure that god is real, the bible is real, etc.?" and the scripture teacher replied something along the lines of "Well, it might all be false and there might not be a god or heaven, but I believe there is". That didn't strike me as a very good answer for a scripture teacher to give. We also threw questions at him like "What happens if someone dies without ever having heard of the Christian god" and he replied that they would not get in to heaven.

I guess an issue may be the fact that people such as this aren't perhaps as educated and up-to-date with their religious knowledge as you'd hope they would be. I can't imagine the numbers for people going in to priesthood and th elike could be very high, and perhaps this leads to a lower quality of recruits? I don't know.

But all of this makes it tough for non-believers like myself to believe. If there are inaccuracies or modifications in the bible - no matter how small - why doesn't god do something about it? Errors like that a pretty big blow against his religion IMO, and you can argue that it's just god testing your faith or whatever, but why should I have faith in somebody who doesn't affect my life in any discernable way and intentionally gives us reason to question his very existance? Just doesn't seem very fair to me, especially when the solution to whether or not it's all real isn't revealed until it's too late.

WVUFAN
05-18-2006, 05:07 AM
That being said, Da Vinci was of course not present at the event depicted in the painting. However, the New Testament clearly names the 12 disciples (apostles), and those are the people that the scriptures referring to the actual occurrence indicate were present (Luke 22:14: "When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table."). According to scripture, none of the chosen 12 were women.

Again, the Gospel of Mary says otherwise -- identifying Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple -- the one Jesus loved above all. It's also true that there's been a distinct effort in the early days of the Church to lessen the impact of women.

Remember the New Testiment is what it is today because of one man, a SOLE PERSON -- Athanasius of Alexandria, a Catholic bishop -- who identified the 27 books, and removed others, even though they were or have been a part of the book up until that part.

The Assumption is mentioned in one of the lost books, and that's Catholic canon -- but the book isn't.

All I'm saying is that just because it's not mentioned in the New Testiment doesn't mean it didn't happen. There's evidence to say that it did. Now I'm not saying Magdalene was Christ's wife -- but she sure was a heck of a lot more important than most Christians believe.

IwasHere
05-18-2006, 06:00 AM
Of course, he's not going to "say" it's Mary in his sketches for obvious reasons.

So, who is missing? 6 guys to the left and 6 guys to the right. If Mary Magdalen is there which apostle is missing? And, does anyone know of any writing that state that not all 12 apostles were present at the last supper?


Also, remember that Mary Magdalen did not become a prostitue until the King James Bible was written. Before the king James version she was an Inn Keeper. That is unless Mary and Joseph were trying to check into a Whorehouse.

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 06:34 AM
Nobody's missing. The Fourth Gospel (or John) (which is the only gospel that discusses this part of the last supper when Jesus is asked about his betrayer) says the "Beloved Disciple" was next to Jesus. I believe MM was the Beloved Disciple, so no one is technically missing. This is where people must try to break away from their perceived notions of what they've been told the Bible says as opposed to reading it themselves. With that said, I think the answer you're looking for is "John."

And, I am not sure I agree with you that MM is identified as a prostitute in KJV. People may leap to that conclusion, but it's not there as I have read from others who discuss it. Pope Gregory's linking her with the unnamed prostitute is usually credited as the beginning of that tale.

IwasHere
05-18-2006, 06:58 AM
With that said, I think the answer you're looking for is "John."

Are you saying John was not present at the Last Supper? Or, are you claiming the Leonardo just forgot to paint John?


LOL... Maybe John was the one taking the picture? :)

bob
05-18-2006, 07:01 AM
And the point here again, is that you can't say it's a FACT that Da Vinci did not paint a woman.

Well, you also can't say it is a FACT that Da Vinci didn't paint his neighbor and his buddies finishing dinner before breaking out the poker set either.

Just because you can't prove something wrong doesn't mean it is true.

Coffee Warlord
05-18-2006, 08:43 AM
Wow. The Tribune RIPPED this movie.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-060517davinci-review-story,1,5711196.story?coll=chi-homepagenews-utl

IwasHere
05-18-2006, 09:39 AM
Wow. The Tribune RIPPED this movie.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-060517davinci-review-story,1,5711196.story?coll=chi-homepagenews-utl
I just can not imagine this movie being 2.5 hours. That is a lot of time of people sitting around and talking to each other. Where is the edit button?

KWhit
05-18-2006, 09:45 AM
I've never been much of a Ron Howard fan.

moriarty
05-18-2006, 10:07 AM
I've never been much of a Ron Howard fan.

I like Opie (apollo 9, beautiful mind were well done IMO). But if a few folks on this board go see it and report it as bad, I think it will wind up on my Netflix list at best.

Gallifrey
05-18-2006, 10:51 AM
Wow, this would have been a great movie to have been in. All the talk and attention.

It is odd that back in the late 70's I can remember the debate over Jesus and Mary and kids or relationship etc. At least in school we heard of it. And it took this long for a movie! Hollywood is slowing down!

Now my interest is up to dig up some fun reading such as reminding me which Pope it was that changed how the world viewed Mary. But it may take awhile to dig it out of all the other interesting 'Pope Laws' as we laughed about them then. One guy wondered if traffic lights are green for go and red for stop because a Pope sometime ago could have liked green apples over red ones. Green good...red evil!

albionmoonlight
05-18-2006, 11:01 AM
Ebert seems to like it.

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060517/REVIEWS/60419009

BrianD
05-18-2006, 11:09 AM
Ebert seems to like it.

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060517/REVIEWS/60419009

I think it is helpful to take his view into the movie. It isn't going to be a cinematic masterpiece, but it will probably be a fun little ride. Anybody looking for anything too deep is probably going to be disappointed and will miss out on the fun.

GabeRivers
05-18-2006, 03:22 PM
Again, the Gospel of Mary says otherwise -- identifying Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple -- the one Jesus loved above all. It's also true that there's been a distinct effort in the early days of the Church to lessen the impact of women.

Remember the New Testiment is what it is today because of one man, a SOLE PERSON -- Athanasius of Alexandria, a Catholic bishop -- who identified the 27 books, and removed others, even though they were or have been a part of the book up until that part.

The Assumption is mentioned in one of the lost books, and that's Catholic canon -- but the book isn't.

All I'm saying is that just because it's not mentioned in the New Testiment doesn't mean it didn't happen. There's evidence to say that it did. Now I'm not saying Magdalene was Christ's wife -- but she sure was a heck of a lot more important than most Christians believe.

Certainly we are all entitled to our own beliefs, and I in no way wish to attack or to be disrespectful of the beliefs of others.

I would appreciate your supporting your claim that Athanasius was the sole author of the establishment of the Biblical canon, as I believe that history supports that it evolved through the efforts of various ecumenical councils -- indeed, as you suggest, there is not one recognized canon. There is for example a protestant canon, a catholic canon and an orthodox canon, all of which differ as to which books are to be included. However, to my knowledge, none of those canons accept any of the gnostic gospels, of which the Book of Mary is one.

Gnosticism, as I'm sure you are aware, is not an offshoot of Christianity. It is a wholly separate belief system that is at odds with Christianity, and it was roundly refuted by the Christian Church by the late second century. Undoubtedly, there was a christian sect that adopted a form of gnosticism, as members of that sect authored "gospels".

It is true that the Book of Mary refers to Mary as being more beloved by Jesus than any of the disciples. Of interest as it relates to the arguments of The Da Vinci Code is that the book itself is a discussion between the disciples and Mary that centers around revelations told to Mary by Jesus before his death, countering any suggestion that they had run off together and had a child. Indeed the book closes with the instruction that men are not to add to the teachings of Jesus.

It would seem a stretch to argue that a gnostic gospel referring to Mary as being more beloved than any of the disciples is somehow proof that the disciple referred to as the one loved by Jesus in the book of John was Mary rather than John himself. Indeed, one need look no further than the words from the book itself to refute that argument.

John 19: 25-27 states: "Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, 'Dear woman, here is your son,' and to the disciple, 'Here is your mother.' From that time on, this disciple took her into his home."

It seems easy to see from that scripture that "the disciple whom he loved" and Mary Magdalene were not the same person and that indeed "the disciple whom he loved" was a male. Further reference to that disciple being a male are found in the closing verses of the Book of John, which I invite anyone who is interested to read.

moriarty
05-18-2006, 03:27 PM
Ebert seems to like it.

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060517/REVIEWS/60419009


Ahh, good to see that the church at least couldn't get to good old Ebert. ;)

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 07:00 PM
It would seem a stretch to argue that a gnostic gospel referring to Mary as being more beloved than any of the disciples is somehow proof that the disciple referred to as the one loved by Jesus in the book of John was Mary rather than John himself. Indeed, one need look no further than the words from the book itself to refute that argument.

John 19: 25-27 states: "Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, 'Dear woman, here is your son,' and to the disciple, 'Here is your mother.' From that time on, this disciple took her into his home."

It seems easy to see from that scripture that "the disciple whom he loved" and Mary Magdalene were not the same person and that indeed "the disciple whom he loved" was a male. Further reference to that disciple being a male are found in the closing verses of the Book of John, which I invite anyone who is interested to read.

Alright, you really have to read what I posted above. It discusses and then controverts the point you trying to make. The final editor/redactor changed the gender and inserted the unknown Beloved Disciple wherever MM was mentioned. There is a strong argument that this created structural inconsistencies in some of the verses. Here is an excerpt dealing with the exact passage you rely on:

----------------------------------------------------------

You may note at this point that in the above cited passages from the Gospel of John, the Beloved Disciple is clearly male. Also, in 19:25-27 and 20:1-11 the Beloved Disciple and Mary Magdalene appear in the same scenes simultaneously. How can I allege that Mary Magdalene is the Beloved Disciple in light of this? The answer will be addressed in detail below.

. . . .

As previously stated, an important assertion of mine is that a redactor carefully concealed the identity of Mary Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple, by referring to her only as an anonymous disciple. As the redactor reworked the seven passages cited above which refer to the Beloved Disciple, he simply changed any reference to Mary Magdalene by substituting it with an anonymous reference to the Beloved Disciple or to "another disciple." For most of the document this was fairly easy to do and the resulting text appeared to be congruous. Instead of seeing the Magdalene's name, the reader is simply presented with the anonymous male disciple.

. . . .

Removing references to Mary Magdalene from most of the story was easy. However, in the course of his work, the redactor was confronted with a problem. The tradition placing Mary Magdalene at the foot of the Cross and at the Empty Tomb on Sunday morning was too strong to deny.

. . . .

The redactor's solution to this problem was actually quite simple. In those two events where he could not deny the presence of the Magdalene, he would rework the text so as to make it appear as if Mary Magdalene and the Beloved Disciple were two different people appearing simultaneously in the same place, at the same time. Consequently, Mary Magdalene and the male Beloved Disciple appear together in the Fourth Gospel in only two passages -- 19:25-27 (at the foot of the Cross) and 20:1-11 (at the Empty Tomb on Sunday morning). ...Isn't that interesting? And it is precisely at these two points that we find some major structural inconsistencies within the text of the Fourth Gospel.
. . . .

The passage from the Fourth Gospel which has Mary Magdalene and the Beloved Disciple together at the foot of the Cross reads as follows:

**Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said... (John 19:25ff)**

I cut the passage here in order to make a point. The structure of this pericope is very puzzling. In the first sentence (v. 25) we read a list of women standing by the Cross of Jesus. In the second sentence (v. 26) the writer seems to refer to the aforementioned list of women at the Cross when he calls one of them "the disciple whom (Jesus) loved." If one were to read only the portion of the passage cited above, one would readily assume that the Beloved Disciple is one of the women standing by the cross with Jesus' mother. (Read it over to yourself and see if you don't agree.)

The entire passage reads as follows:

**Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. (John 19:25-27)**

The original pre-Gospel version of this passage probably referred to Mary Magdalene as the disciple whom Jesus loved. Through the use of masculine determiners and cases (in Greek), the redactor was able to change the Beloved Disciple into the anonymous male seemingly in mid-thought. The structure of this passage seems a little forced and indicates that it was probably altered as I have asserted.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I invite you to read both articles I posted. You also can't get away from the simple fact that John is never identified by name in the 4th gospel. Just why is that? I also reiterate I don't believe JC and MM were married, just they had a close relationship and she was his favorite disciple.

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 07:08 PM
Are you saying John was not present at the Last Supper? Or, are you claiming the Leonardo just forgot to paint John?


LOL... Maybe John was the one taking the picture? :)

Neither. As I said before, the 4th Gospel (John) is what the painting is based on. The painting is of the moment Peter asks JC who his betrayer is - which is only recounted in the 4th Gospel. The 4th Gospel never names John, but instead refers to the Beloved Disciple throughout, including being seated next to JC at the Last Supper. Thus, Leonardo painted who HE BELIEVED to be the Beloved Disciple -- a woman, Mary Magdalene.

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 07:12 PM
Well, you also can't say it is a FACT that Da Vinci didn't paint his neighbor and his buddies finishing dinner before breaking out the poker set either.

Just because you can't prove something wrong doesn't mean it is true.

Yep, that's right. We can however use extraneous evidence to help us get there. I would point out the extraneous evidence that would essentially eliminate the "Last Supper" being a picture of a poker game is pretty strong. I would also point out the extraneous evidence that John rather than MM is in the painting is weak and that there is just as strong or stronger evidence that MM is in the painting, starting with the fact (to me) it appears to a woman he painted. But, we will never know for sure.

Grammaticus
05-18-2006, 07:30 PM
Grammaticus!!! That's a 5 minute major penalty for confusing a good movie with a really bad one!

Oops, you are right, I got the wrong movie title. Clear and Present Danger was about drug cartels in South America. Here is the plot overvie of the movie and book for Sum of All Fears. Pretty much a bad movie over all.

The Sum of All Fears MOVIE plot - A small group of neo-nazi terrorists recovers a nuclear bomb which they decide to use at a Super Bowl, and then frame the Russians. Jack Ryan (Affleck), an Intelligence officer at the CIA, must prevent a nuclear exchange between Russia and the USA.

The Sum of All Fears BOOK Plot - The book begins during the Yo Kippur War; at its height the Israelis opt for a tactical nuclear strike, but this was changed at the last minute. Unfortunately, one nuclear weapon had not been removed yet from an Israeli attack aircraft and that aircraft crashed into a mountain, creating a "Broken Arrow".

The plot then moves to the present day. A small group of Muslim extremist terrorists recover the bomb and convert it from a nuclear fission device to a thermonuclear device. The terrorists decide to use the weapon at the Super Bowl in Denver. Since The U.S. and Russia believed that terrorists were incapable of making a thermonuclear device, the U.S. assumes that Russia did it. Fortuantly, the tritium used was impure which caused the fusion part of the bomb to fail to go off. Jack Ryan, at the time Deputy Director of the CIA, must prevent a nuclear exchange between Russia and the USA.

WVUFAN
05-18-2006, 07:55 PM
Certainly we are all entitled to our own beliefs, and I in no way wish to attack or to be disrespectful of the beliefs of others.
You're absolutely right, and I feel exactly the same. I'm certainly not trying to be disrespectful of your beliefs.


I would appreciate your supporting your claim that Athanasius was the sole author of the establishment of the Biblical canon, as I believe that history supports that it evolved through the efforts of various ecumenical councils -- indeed, as you suggest, there is not one recognized canon.

Sure. The first time the 27 books of the New Testament (not the Vulgure version, but rather the "common" Catholic New Testament) was mentioned was in The 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius. See: http://www.ntcanon.org/Athanasius.shtml#Festal_Letter

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius


Gnosticism, as I'm sure you are aware, is not an offshoot of Christianity. It is a wholly separate belief system that is at odds with Christianity, and it was roundly refuted by the Christian Church by the late second century. Undoubtedly, there was a christian sect that adopted a form of gnosticism, as members of that sect authored "gospels".

The form of Gnosticism Da Vinci practiced (or is believed to have practiced) was one in which the idea of the Divine Birth and Resurrection is not taken literally, but rather spirtually. So, in many ways John the Baptist is just as important as Jesus was, as Jesus's "Divine Birth" came when John baptised him. This is why the theory remains that John and Jesus are switched in the Virgin of the Rocks -- that Jesus is being celebrated as being born in the spiritual sense by John blessing him.

It's connected in some ways to Arianism (which was the REAL importance to the First Council of Nicaea).

Chubby
05-18-2006, 08:14 PM
John 19: 25-27 states: "Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, 'Dear woman, here is your son,' and to the disciple, 'Here is your mother.' From that time on, this disciple took her into his home."

It says there's 3 women present, no men.

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 08:32 PM
Yep. You got it. Of course, you stated much more succintly than I did.

Neon_Chaos
05-18-2006, 09:16 PM
Weren't the Gospels NOT written by their supposed authors? Don't they have the names of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John because it was the name attached to these specific scriptures by the gnostics, who used these gospels way before the Catholics did? (And the four were eventually chosen to be the only gospels included in the Bible, since they were the only ones that didn't clash with the Catholics' views)

EagleFan
05-18-2006, 09:32 PM
thats some twisted logic. hes setting up the story. Hes said time and time again this is a fictional story. long before it was a hit, and long after it sold a trillion copies. the book is sold as a fiction. what more do you need?


Now that's some twisted logic. Of course it sells as fiction, the characters ARE fictional. It could sell as nothing else.

He repeatedly states things as FACT which are actually only theories and speculations. He even starts the book off by claiming that the characters are fictional but the other information is FACT, not alternate theories.

ISiddiqui
05-18-2006, 09:51 PM
It says there's 3 women present, no men.

Also in reading the passage, it seems that saying to the disciple "Here is your mother" would make sense if he was talking to his wife... because she is now a part of the family, and so Jesus' mother would be her mother (in law) as well.

At the end it does say the disciple took her into his home, but there is no 'his' there it seems.


He repeatedly states things as FACT which are actually only theories and speculations. He even starts the book off by claiming that the characters are fictional but the other information is FACT, not alternate theories.

He says the descriptions are factual.

SFL Cat
05-18-2006, 10:16 PM
Personally, I thought it was a pretty good read until the end. The ending was just so lame, was so pat, was such a let-down from a story-telling point of view, it just ruined the whole thing for me. No, I won't go see the movie.

I do have a lot of problems with the Catholic Church. I think over the years, Catholocism has largely departed from the gospels and teachings of Christ and replaced them with "rituals of men" that as Saint Timothy puts it, "have a form of godliness, but denies its power." That said, I know of several very devout Christians in the Catholic community.

Based on some of his other works, I do tend to think Brown has an axe to grind with religion in general, and the Catholic Church in particular. His suggestion that Christ isn't divine and that history supports his conclusion is a subtle blasphemy IMO, so I can understand why some are upset because as the Apostle Paul writes, "But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testifed about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have died in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."

However, I think it is silly to stage protests. That's free publicity, and it is a tactic that has been used countless times by the movie industry to promote sacriligeous or controversial films (Life of Brian, Last Temptation of Christ, etc. etc.).

Vinatieri for Prez
05-18-2006, 10:26 PM
Weren't the Gospels NOT written by their supposed authors? Don't they have the names of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John because it was the name attached to these specific scriptures by the gnostics, who used these gospels way before the Catholics did? (And the four were eventually chosen to be the only gospels included in the Bible, since they were the only ones that didn't clash with the Catholics' views)

You are right in terms that the apostles did not put pen to paper to draft the gospels, but it is their stories told through their eyewitness accounts.

In terms of the names given to the gospels, all I can say is my research says this:

"The popularity of the Fourth Gospel among Gnostics made it important for the early church to pursue the question of its apostolic authorship (Perkins: 946). It was Irenaeus who defended the apostolicity of the Fourth Gospel by appealing to a tradition circulating in Asia Minor which, he claimed, linked John of Zebedee to the Fourth Gospel. The testimony of Irenaeus, however, makes for very tenuous evidence establishing John of Zebedee as the Fourth Gospel's author. First of all, it turned out that Irenaeus confused John of Zebedee with a presbyter from Asia Minor who was also named John. Secondly, Irenaeus claimed that he got his information about Johannine authorship of the Fourth Gospel when he was a child from Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna (d. 156) (Perkins: 946). The church tradition that established John as the author of the Fourth Gospel was based, primarily, on Irenaeus' childhood recollections! It is mainly for this reason, in the absence of other supporting evidence, that the majority of biblical scholars today assert that John was not the author of the Fourth Gospel."

Thus, it would seem it was the church established John as the author of the 4th gospel, not the Gnostics. I posit that the Gnostics believed Mary authored the 4th gospel, but when there was a schism in the community, with some wanting to join the orthodox church, they changed authorship to an unknown disciple. The church then later declared John authored it on what appears very flimsy evidence.

IwasHere
05-19-2006, 03:05 AM
This movie is getting hammered over at Rottentomatos. 16%

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/da_vinci_code/

stevew
05-19-2006, 07:05 AM
This movie is getting hammered over at Rottentomatos. 16%

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/da_vinci_code/

Yeah, i was just going to post that. Up to 18% now, but RT more often than not is a good guide of a movies general quality. With tons of exceptions, of course.

ISiddiqui
05-19-2006, 08:29 AM
And it's 11% in the "Cream of the Crop" ratings. Yikes... though I guess a book that focuses on explaining a historical conspiracy theory would be hard to put on the screen (what, does it involve Hanks describing everything for a half hour so everyone knows what is going on?)

AlexB
05-19-2006, 03:40 PM
Best 'protest' ;) against the movie thus far... As reported in The Times Online:

The latest dissenting voice comes the Alliance of French Female Cryptographers, which is concerned about the stereotyping Tautou’s portrayal of Sophie Neveu, the seductive cryptographer heroine, might promote.

“What’s important is that people realise not all female cryptographers are enchanting, or even sexy,” it says. “Some of us are thoroughly plain, bordering on dowdy, and couldn’t smile in a cutesy, pixie-ish manner if we tried.”

:D

cthomer5000
05-19-2006, 04:30 PM
I couldn't decide whether a new thread should be started for actual thoughts on the movie.... I saw it last night (free screening) and felt incredibly "meh" about it. It wasn't bad and it wasn't good. It kind of felt like it was moving too fast and somewhat boring at the same time.

I can't decide if I'm too harsh a critic due to having read the book.

IwasHere
05-19-2006, 09:28 PM
I can't decide if I'm too harsh a critic due to having read the book.
That was my first thought when I read about how the movie left out many of Brown's more controversial theories. This seems like it would be a big let down for Brown's biggest Hardcore fans.

I am going to wait and check this out on DVD, because of all the "boring" reviews I have read elsewhere. That is unless I read something here that peaks my interest.

I for one would not mind a seperate "Movie Only" thread. If that is even possible here. :)

BrianD
05-19-2006, 10:46 PM
I couldn't decide whether a new thread should be started for actual thoughts on the movie.... I saw it last night (free screening) and felt incredibly "meh" about it. It wasn't bad and it wasn't good. It kind of felt like it was moving too fast and somewhat boring at the same time.

I can't decide if I'm too harsh a critic due to having read the book.

To me, the movie felt exactly like the book. In fact, I'm unsure how someone could like the book and not like the movie. I haven't read the book real recently, but the movie covered just about everything I remember from the book. One thing I did like was that the movie seemed to take a little edge off of the controversy. They made it clear that Opus Dei wasn't all crazy fanatical, but they have fanatical members like everyone else. I'd have to disagree with most of the negative reviews that I read and say that this was one of the better book adaptations I have seen.

cthomer5000
05-19-2006, 11:11 PM
To me, the movie felt exactly like the book. In fact, I'm unsure how someone could like the book and not like the movie. I haven't read the book real recently, but the movie covered just about everything I remember from the book. One thing I did like was that the movie seemed to take a little edge off of the controversy. They made it clear that Opus Dei wasn't all crazy fanatical, but they have fanatical members like everyone else. I'd have to disagree with most of the negative reviews that I read and say that this was one of the better book adaptations I have seen.

I agree, I felt they also toned down Langdon's character. Instead of being very strong in his convictions, he seemed a lot more "Well, that's one interpretation...."

I just find it impossible to be objective when watching the movie though knowing I can mentally fill in any blanks with material from the book. I'm pretty neutral on it, as I think they (Sony) played the movie very, very, very safe top to bottom. From director to ever major character, they went with incredibly safe choices. It results in a very safe movie, though not a particularly great one.

IwasHere
05-20-2006, 12:49 AM
This movie is getting hammered over at Rottentomatos. 16%

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/da_vinci_code/
Funny when I posted this it was getting a 16% for everyone and a 14% from the creme of the top. Then a little later someone posted it was getting a 18% from everyone and an 11% from the Top.

Now it is getting a 19% from everyone and and a whopping 9% from the Top. So, the reviews are going up for the general public and down for the critics.

NOW: 19% and 9%

BrianD
05-20-2006, 09:41 AM
I agree, I felt they also toned down Langdon's character. Instead of being very strong in his convictions, he seemed a lot more "Well, that's one interpretation...."

I just find it impossible to be objective when watching the movie though knowing I can mentally fill in any blanks with material from the book. I'm pretty neutral on it, as I think they (Sony) played the movie very, very, very safe top to bottom. From director to ever major character, they went with incredibly safe choices. It results in a very safe movie, though not a particularly great one.

People were complaining that the book presented all of these crazy theories as facts and made no mention of them being theories. This movie did a good job of removing that complaint. Crazy theories were still made, but they came from people who were clearly fanatical themselves.

It wasn't a particularly great movie, but it came from not a particularly great book. I think the movie was a good representation of the book and was probably just as good as the book...whatever level of goodness you attribute to the book.

MrBigglesworth
05-20-2006, 03:11 PM
The movie made $30 million on Friday.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/first-bo-reports-on-da-vinci-code/

Vinatieri for Prez
05-21-2006, 02:37 AM
Just saw the movie tonight. Good adaptation. I would give it a 7/10 or 3 of 4 stars. I think I would have liked it more if I had not read the book because you lose a little when you're not hearing about the conspiracy the first time around.

Couple of extra points, and not actually spoilers here. I liked the way they used Langdon as the counterpoint to Teabing. As said above, they kind of put Langdon in the role of the critics of the book. You'll see what I mean. It helps cover for some of the basic stuff Brown got wrong.

There are some changes too, minor things left out that don't really matter much. They also take it real easy on the modern day church showing the evil church guys as "bad apples."

With that said, they definitely change some of the ending drastically, which gives even the book readers something new. I could take it either way, but if you know enough about things, you also know that change is highly improbable.

Young Drachma
05-21-2006, 03:18 AM
I just saw it tonight. It was a drag and I wanted to leave early, but...where we were all sitting made that difficult. But, it bored me to tears and I only went to see it because friends wanted to and I figured I'd go hang out. I should've brought my PSP.

That said, I wish all the hoopla would stop. On the same token, I admire anyone who could think of an idea to write a book, which later becomes a movie which causes people to do nothing more than feed the beast and make someone -- lots of people -- really rich or richer.

IwasHere
05-21-2006, 03:53 AM
Anyone here have to cross a Picketline to see this movie, or is that just TV News BS. Any Scab stories out there?

Mac Howard
05-21-2006, 09:31 AM
I get the impression that the public are not as critical of the film as the critics. Polls of people leaving the cinema have been reasonably good here.

Vinatieri for Prez
05-21-2006, 10:17 AM
Anyone here have to cross a Picketline to see this movie, or is that just TV News BS. Any Scab stories out there?

No. No protest at all.

Coffee Warlord
05-21-2006, 10:47 AM
I get the impression that the public are not as critical of the film as the critics. Polls of people leaving the cinema have been reasonably good here.

One of the VERY few times I agree with the critics. Painful to watch. Film just seems to bounce all over the damn place, and the little eccentricities that were found in the book (that MADE the book) were simply cut out, leaving a boring shell of a movie.

TLK
05-21-2006, 10:48 AM
Anyone here have to cross a Picketline to see this movie, or is that just TV News BS. Any Scab stories out there?

There were some folks with signs that were protesting when we purchased tickets. I wanted to talk to them on the way out, asking if they actually bothered to see the movie.... but they were gone.

Young Drachma
05-21-2006, 12:49 PM
Anyone here have to cross a Picketline to see this movie, or is that just TV News BS. Any Scab stories out there?

Not in Wyoming. Just long lines of folks wanting to see it.

Young Drachma
05-21-2006, 12:50 PM
One of the VERY few times I agree with the critics. Painful to watch. Film just seems to bounce all over the damn place, and the little eccentricities that were found in the book (that MADE the book) were simply cut out, leaving a boring shell of a movie.

agreed.

Neon_Chaos
05-21-2006, 01:49 PM
Watched it earlier, expecting crap since everyone and their mother seem to be shitting on it.

I was suprisingly pleased with the movie. Two hours and thirty minutes, and I really didn't feel bored one bit. The movie told a good story, and it was nice piecing things together.

It helped that I haven't read the book in a year, so it was fun trying to work how things happened again.

I think the major diappointment most viewers is that most of them have already read the book. And the Da Vinci Code is more of a suspense-treasure hunt type... so if you read the book a few days before watching the movie, you're going to feel bored with it since you've basically eliminated any and all suspense involved in the movie..

I have a hunch that the movie would do better when presented to people who have not read the book at all.

IwasHere
05-22-2006, 09:33 AM
Just reported on MSNBC... The Da Vinci Code made $224 million worldwide on its opening weekend.

moriarty
05-22-2006, 02:27 PM
Just reported on MSNBC... The Da Vinci Code made $224 million worldwide on its opening weekend.

Not sure if Brown is getting a cut of the box office sales, but the guy must be rolling in the cash. The movie is #1 and his books despite being more than a year old (and rather forumulaic in my opinion) are still 1,3, and 13 on the New York Times Bestellers lists for paperback.

Talk about hitting a gold mine.

Cringer
05-22-2006, 02:49 PM
Not sure if Brown is getting a cut of the box office sales, but the guy must be rolling in the cash. The movie is #1 and his books despite being more than a year old (and rather forumulaic in my opinion) are still 1,3, and 13 on the New York Times Bestellers lists for paperback.

Talk about hitting a gold mine.

I could use a tenth of a percent of his take from all this.

stevew
05-22-2006, 03:08 PM
Not sure if Brown is getting a cut of the box office sales, but the guy must be rolling in the cash. The movie is #1 and his books despite being more than a year old (and rather forumulaic in my opinion) are still 1,3, and 13 on the New York Times Bestellers lists for paperback.

Talk about hitting a gold mine.

I'm sure he probably got a fairly good percentage of first dollar income. Unless he negotiated the rights before it became a huge success. Which is possible.

MrBigglesworth
05-22-2006, 03:54 PM
Not sure if Brown is getting a cut of the box office sales, but the guy must be rolling in the cash. The movie is #1 and his books despite being more than a year old (and rather forumulaic in my opinion) are still 1,3, and 13 on the New York Times Bestellers lists for paperback.

Talk about hitting a gold mine.
The rights to the movie were sold by him for $6 million, not sure if he gets a cut of the sales either though.

Raiders Army
05-22-2006, 04:09 PM
There were some folks with signs that were protesting when we purchased tickets. I wanted to talk to them on the way out, asking if they actually bothered to see the movie.... but they were gone.
Lazy picketers!

Raiders Army
05-22-2006, 05:20 PM
Interesting analysis of the movie, box office numbers-wise, here:

hxxp://the-numbers.com/features/the_da_vinci_code.php

The Da Vinci Code Box Office Analysis

The second tentpole movie of the summer is The Da Vinci Code, which has all the usual ingredients that are required to be a monster hit: It's opening on a weekend that has historically proven very profitable, it has a very bankable star leading an excellent cast, the director has had his own fair share of hits, and it's based on one of the most popular books of recent years. We'll analyze the influence all these factors might have on the opening of the movie.

The Weekend Before Memorial Day
The Da Vinci Code opens the weekend before Memorial Day, which is easily the best non-holiday weekend of the year. Some of the biggest movies of all time have opened in this slot, including the Star Wars Prequels, both Shrek movies, The Matrix Reloaded, and others. But, as the opening weekends of Dinosaur and Shrek prove, a fast start is not guaranteed.


Release
Date Movie Opening Friday Opening
Weekend Opening
Theaters Total US Gross Worldwide
Gross

5/19/1999 Star Wars: The Phantom Menace $18,467,513 $64,810,970 2,970 $431,088,297 $925,600,000
5/19/2000 Dinosaur $11,255,000 $38,854,851 3,257 $137,748,063 $356,148,063
5/18/2001 Shrek $11,541,000 $42,347,760 3,587 $267,652,016 $487,652,016
5/16/2002 Star Wars: Attack of the Clones $24,404,757 $80,027,814 3,161 $310,676,740 $656,695,615
5/15/2003 The Matrix Reloaded $31,330,393 $91,774,413 3,603 $281,553,689 $738,576,929
5/19/2004 Shrek 2 $28,340,295 108,037,878 4,163 $436,721,703 $916,121,703
5/19/2005 Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith $33,529,613 $108,435,841 3,661 $380,262,555 $848,462,555

Note that these films were generally aimed at a younger crowd than The Da Vinci Code. In fact, The Da Vinci Code seems more like a mid-Summer movie in the mold of Saving Private Ryan or Road to Perdition (both of which, coincidentally, starred Tom Hanks, but more on him later). So there's an argument that it may have been advantageous for the studio to release the film in July (which is when those two movies were released), rather than choosing a release date more compatible with a younger demographic.

Tom Hanks
Speaking of Tom Hanks, he is easily one of the biggest box office draws in the world, including a record seven $100 million movies in a row from Saving Private Ryan to Catch Me if You Can. However, when Ladykillers stopped that streak and then The Terminal missed expectations, we saw the first signs of weakness in what was an otherwise nearly invincible run. That is not to say his days as a box office draw are over. He'll most likely have plenty more $100 million and even $200 million movies in his career (not to mention an Oscar or two). In fact, should The Da Vinci Code meet or beat expectations, those two movies will be considered a minor aberration rather than a full-fledged slump.


Tom Hanks' Movie Career
Released Movie Name
Role
1st weekend US Gross
Worldwide Gross

2007 Charlie Wilson's War Announced
2006 The Great Buck Howard Announced
2006 A Cold Case Andy Rosenzweig Announced
5/19/2006 The Da Vinci Code Robert Langdon Confirmed
9/23/2005 Magnificent Desolation Narrator $503,253 $11,004,915 $11,004,915
11/10/2004 The Polar Express The Conductor/Hero Boy $23,323,463 $172,796,043 $296,596,043
6/18/2004 The Terminal Victor $19,053,199 $77,073,959 $217,873,959
3/26/2004 The Ladykillers Professor Goldthwait Higginson Dorr $12,634,563 $39,692,139 $67,819,191
12/25/2002 Catch Me if You Can Joe Shaye $30,082,000 $164,606,800 $351,106,800
7/12/2002 The Road to Perdition Michael Sullivan $22,079,481 $104,054,514 $161,400,000
12/22/2000 Cast Away Chuck Noland $28,883,406 $233,632,142 $427,230,516
12/10/1999 The Green Mile Paul Edgecomb $18,017,152 $136,801,374 $284,600,000
11/19/1999 Toy Story 2 Woody $300,163 $245,823,397 $485,800,000
12/18/1998 You've Got Mail Joe Fox $18,426,749 $115,821,495 $250,800,000
7/24/1998 Saving Private Ryan Captain John Miller $30,576,104 $216,335,085 $481,635,085
10/4/1996 That Thing You Do! Mr. White $6,208,595 $25,857,416 $31,748,615
3/15/1996 The Celluloid Closet Interviewee (Minor Role) $95,047 $1,310,167 $1,310,167
11/22/1995 Toy Story Woody (voice) $29,140,617 $191,796,233 $356,800,000
6/30/1995 Apollo 13 Jim Lovell $25,353,380 $172,070,496 $334,100,000
7/6/1994 Forrest Gump Forrest Gump $24,450,602 $329,693,974 $679,400,000
12/22/1993 Philadelphia Andrew Beckett $77,324,422 $201,300,000
6/25/1993 Sleepless in Seattle Sam Baldwin $17,253,733 $126,680,884 $227,900,000
7/1/1992 A League of Their Own Jimmy Dugan $13,739,456 $107,533,925 $107,533,925
2/21/1992 Radio Flyer Older Mike $1,932,595 $4,651,977 $4,651,977
12/19/1990 The Bonfire of the Vanities Sherman McCoy $4,216,063 $15,432,314 $15,432,314
3/9/1990 Joe Versus the Volcano Joe Banks $9,252,232 $39,381,963 $39,381,963
7/28/1989 Turner & Hooch Det. Scott Turner $12,211,042 $71,079,915 $71,079,915
2/17/1989 The `burbs Ray Peterson $11,101,197 $35,382,246 $35,382,246
9/30/1988 Punchline Steven Gold $21,032,000 $21,032,000
6/3/1988 Big Josh Baskin $8,216,190 $114,968,774 $114,968,774
6/26/1987 Dragnet Pep Streebeck $10,542,669 $57,387,000 $57,387,000
11/14/1986 Every Time We Say Goodbye David $278,623 $278,623
7/30/1986 Nothing in Common David Basner $3,279,650 $32,324,000 $32,324,000
3/26/1986 The Money Pit Walter Fielding $5,344,555 $37,499,651 $37,499,651
8/16/1985 Volunteers Lawrence Bourne III $5,184,360 $19,875,740 $19,875,740
7/19/1985 The Man With One Red Shoe Richard $3,139,025 $8,645,411 $8,645,411
6/29/1984 Bachelor Party Rick Gassko $4,775,155 $38,435,947 $38,435,947
3/9/1984 Splash Allen Bauer $6,174,059 $62,599,495 $62,599,495
Total Grosses $3,110,643,511 $5,537,153,474
Average Gross $88,875,529
Average Opening Weekend $12,677,825

Happy Days Again for Ron Howard?
Director Ron Howard has also had an amazing career that has hit a few snags recently. After directing five $100 million movies, including a stretch of four $100 million hits in five films, his last two releases did not succeed. In fact, it would be fair to call The Missing a flop since it cost $65 million to make and only brought in $26.9 million domestically. Cinderella Man did much better, but it also cost much more and in the end was not a financial success either. So Howard is really looking to The Da Vinci Code to break his slump. However, while the film is almost guaranteed to show a profit, if it fails to reach $200 million, it will still be looked at as a disappointed.


Movies Directed by Ron Howard
Released Movie Name
1st weekend
Total Gross

2006 The Da Vinci Code Unknown
6/3/2005 Cinderella Man $18,320,205 $61,649,308
11/26/2003 The Missing $10,833,633 $26,900,336
12/21/2001 A Beautiful Mind $367,151 $170,708,996
11/17/2000 How the Grinch Stole Christmas $55,820,330 $260,031,035
3/26/1999 EDtv $8,311,290 $22,508,689
11/8/1996 Ransom $34,216,088 $136,492,681
6/30/1995 Apollo 13 $25,353,380 $172,070,496
3/18/1994 The Paper $36,768,310
5/22/1992 Far and Away $12,948,940 $58,883,840
5/24/1991 Backdraft $15,723,480 $77,868,585
8/2/1989 Parenthood $10,506,450 $100,047,830
5/20/1988 Willow $8,300,169 $57,269,863
3/14/1986 Gung Ho $7,170,830 $36,611,610
6/21/1985 Cocoon $7,936,427 $76,257,348
3/9/1984 Splash $6,174,059 $62,599,495
7/30/1982 Night Shift $2,539,633 $21,017,056
Total Grosses $1,377,685,478
Average Gross $86,105,342
Average Opening Weekend $14,968,138

Does Controversy Sell Movie Tickets?
It is also important to take a look at the controversy surrounding the movie and the book that it is based on. Movies about controversial topics are difficult to predict because it's hard to tell whether the controversy will encourage people to see the movie or drive them away. Taking a look at some controversial movies of the past few years:

Release
Date Movie Opening
Weekend Opening
Theaters Total US Gross Worldwide
Gross
12/26/1973 The Exorcist - - $204,632,868 $402,500,000
8/17/1979 The Life of Brian $140,034 5 $20,008,693 -
8/12/1988 The Last Temptation of Christ $401,211 9 $8,373,585 -
11/12/1999 Dogma $8,669,945 1,269 $30,651,422 -
10/11/2002 Bowling for Columbine $209,148 8 $21,576,018 $40,000,060
2/25/2004 The Passion of the Christ $83,848,082 3,043 $370,773,867 $609,993,088
5/28/2004 Saved! $345,136 20 $8,886,160 -
6/23/2004 Fahrenheit 9/11 $23,920,637 868 $119,114,517 $204,114,517



(Huh, look at that; they are all religious or political. Who would have thought that?)

Looking at that list it's clear that The Passion of the Christ and Fahrenheit 9/11 were not harmed by controversy. But the message in the numbers seems to be that you need to have a large and motivated core audience to score a box office success. In the case of The Da Vinci Code, Sony will be counting on the fans of the book to produce Passion-style numbers on opening weekend. That's going to be a tall order, but is very much a possibility.

Swaggs
05-22-2006, 05:36 PM
Saw this yesterday.

I thought it was a decent movie with pretty good acting. Molina and Hanks seemed almost outclassed at times in their acting, which was a surprise for me. I also thought it might have been difficult to follow if you have not read the book already, but it seemed to simplify as it went on.

Coder
05-22-2006, 07:15 PM
I think the movie will do very well.. the book did amazingly well despite being shot down by critics.. I doubt the movie will be any different.


Just wanted to boast about my excellent psychic powers from May 17th..

No.. really..

ok.. so I can't sleep and it's 2:15 a.m. never mind me

Mac Howard
05-22-2006, 07:38 PM
I think the major diappointment most viewers is that most of them have already read the book. And the Da Vinci Code is more of a suspense-treasure hunt type...

I don't know why this point hasn't been made more often. One undeniable characteristic of the book is that it's a page-turner - you finish one chapter and move immediately on to the next to find out what happens. But if you've read the book then that aspect of it is gone - you know precisely what is coming next. Not exactly a good point for a suspense/thriller.

I tried to read the book again a couple of weeks back but only read 5 chapters. The page-turning aspect simply wasn't there anymore.

Karim
05-22-2006, 09:25 PM
I'm another that found the movie disappointing after reading the book. I also found Tom Hanks' to be average at best. But it was a decent thriller and should fulfill expectations if that is the extent of it.

Karlifornia
05-23-2006, 12:35 AM
My feathers are still sufficiently ruffled by the Joe Versus The Volcano assisted suicide controversy. I don't have the time or heart for a new Tom Hanks controversy.

Groundhog
05-23-2006, 12:41 AM
My feathers are still sufficiently ruffled by the Joe Versus The Volcano assisted suicide controversy. I don't have the time or heart for a new Tom Hanks controversy.

:D :D :D :D

BrianD
05-23-2006, 09:15 AM
I also found Tom Hanks' to be average at best.

I consider this to be a positive thing. The character of Robert Langdon was supposed to be very average. In the book, there was nothing overly special about him, he was just your average ordinary guy getting thrown into a quest.

Tom Hanks did his usual solid acting job but didn't draw too much attention to himself and away from everything else going on.

Neon_Chaos
05-23-2006, 09:29 AM
I love how they managed to follow all the little details. Hahaha. The Mickey Mouse wristwatch! :P

Logan
05-24-2006, 04:42 PM
Sweet!!! Bring on more protests!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5011068.stm

Studio banks on Da Vinci prequel

Author Dan Brown's precursor to The Da Vinci Code novel is to be transformed into a film.

The Da Vinci Code movie took $224m (£119m) around the world in its first weekend, despite poor reviews and controversy over its religious subject.

Columbia Pictures, the studio behind the film, has now ordered an adaptation of Angels and Demons.

The novel again features Robert Langdon, played by Tom Hanks in the film, and is set around the Vatican.

Back catalogue

Akiva Goldsman has been drafted in to write the script, having penned the screenplay for The Da Vinci Code.

His previous work includes A Beautiful Mind, for which he won an Oscar, Cinderella Man and the much-maligned Batman and Robin, which starred George Clooney.

A spokesman for Columbia said The Da Vinci Code director Ron Howard had not yet signed on for another film but both he and Hanks would be given first option to work on Angels and Demons.

Although it was author Brown's third book, it was not until the success of The Da Vinci Code that his back catalogue became best-sellers.

Columbia also owns the rights to Brown's other novels - Digital Fortress and Deception Point.

Neuqua
05-24-2006, 04:57 PM
I personally enjoyed Angels and Demons a lot more than Davinci Code, though I'm sure I'm in the minority.

Logan
05-24-2006, 05:12 PM
I personally enjoyed Angels and Demons a lot more than Davinci Code, though I'm sure I'm in the minority.

I agree, and from all the people I know who read both, I would say 80% prefer A&D.

cthomer5000
05-24-2006, 05:27 PM
I agree, and from all the people I know who read both, I would say 80% prefer A&D.

I liked Da Vinci Code better as a book, but i think Angels & Demons would/will make a better movie.

Honolulu_Blue
05-24-2006, 05:59 PM
I liked Da Vinci Code better as a book, but i think Angels & Demons would/will make a better movie.

There's a difference?

IwasHere
05-24-2006, 07:26 PM
A spokesman for Columbia said The Da Vinci Code director Ron Howard had not yet signed on for another film but both he and Hanks would be given first option to work on Angels and Demons.

I bet money that neither Hanks or Howard would be in the next movie. Especailly now after seeing all the interviews with Hanks refusing to answer religious questions.

Chief Rum
05-24-2006, 09:35 PM
I prefer A&D much more than DaVinci. That's terrific news.

ISiddiqui
05-24-2006, 11:18 PM
I just got Da Vinci Code (the book), borrowed from a friend. Let's see what all the fuss is about now.

Neon_Chaos
05-25-2006, 03:39 AM
OH HELL YEAH. Angels & Demons would make a better movie. FAR BETTER.

Now this one's going to ruffle a ton of feathers... A&D is more focused on the power-system of the Catholic Church.

moriarty
05-25-2006, 08:52 AM
There's a difference?

That's exactly how I feel.

Logan
05-25-2006, 04:38 PM
OH HELL YEAH. Angels & Demons would make a better movie. FAR BETTER.

Now this one's going to ruffle a ton of feathers... A&D is more focused on the power-system of the Catholic Church.

A friend and I have been debating about what kind of protests a movie version of A&D would bring ever since the ball got rolling on the DVC protests a while back. While the material is extremely controversial (and maybe even more so than DVC), I just don't think enough people know about the A&D story to really do damage or to get any sort of big protest together. Someone would need to start the uproar soon to build it up enough.

Anthony
05-25-2006, 04:48 PM
That's exactly how I feel.

there is literally no difference in plots between the two books.