Poker ethics question

[Mustang]

Sitting at a live 2/4 table tonight, the lady next to me was terrible at protecting her cards when viewing them so, 50% of the time I had an idea what she had.. If I didn't see the exact card, I knew if she had paint or a rough idea of the card number/suit.

A twinge of me was thinking 'Maybe I should kindly tell her to protect her cards' but, more of me thought 'Her responsibility, not mine'.

[saldana]

mmm...tough one....if she were an older woman, i probably would have mentioned it to her, but if she were near to my age, i would have kept looking...its part of the game to protect your cards, looking at someones pocket that isnt guarding them is no different than reading their tells.

[sabotai]

Not unethical at all (to not say anything)

If you were playing with friends for nothing (or extremely little), then I would say you should tell them, but since this is a real game, low limit or not, it's up to her to learn how to protect her hand if she wants to play for real money.

[Schmidty]

Nobility is a trait lacking now days.

[kingfc22]

I keep my mouth shut and use the info to my advantage

[GoldenEagle]

The more important question is: Why were you playing 2/4 live?

[GoSeahawks]

I call it having an edge.

[JS19]

I'm a tad bit drunk right now but, if it were a friend I would have said something, if it was an aquatince(im sure i just mispelled that ome) then fuck it, sucks for her.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Tell her at the end of the night. That way you get the advantage, but she will learn in the future against others.

[Lathum]

I prettym uch agree with Saldana and Vinitieri, I probably wouldn't mention it but I would probably look away if it was an older person, allthough it is the players responsibility to protect their cards.

[Vince]

I don't think it's particularly unethical NOT to tell them, but I would probably tell them (my conscience is a bitch to deal with).

[Izulde]

I wouldn't tell them while we were playing, no. After everything is all over though, I'd probably pass the tip along.

[larrymcg421]

It is a +EV play NOT to tell them. The folks at TwoPlusTwo will call you a moron for doing otherwise.

[panerd]

So basically you guys are also saying that if you knew a way to deal of the bottom of the deck 100% of the time, do so. How is this ethical? How is this not cheating?

[Joe]

definitely tell them

[larrymcg421]

definitely tell them

No way would your namesake tell.

[Marc Vaughan]

I'd tell them .... probably kick myself if I ended up losing, but I'd definitely tell them because I personally wouldn't find it honourable to do otherwise (I have a weird moral code, I blame it on too many superhero cartoons as a kid ;) ).

[Mustang]

The more important question is: Why were you playing 2/4 live?

Because I knew my session was going to be limited to around 2 or 3 hours and the play at these 2/4 tables is less than stellar. I'll take my $75 and be happy..

[Toddzilla]

Why the hell does it matter how old she is? If some old lady wants to wave her cards around, good for me. Do stupid young broads have the be the only ones taken advantage of? If granny wants to piss away her social security check by showing her cards, so be it.

[MJ4H]

I would always tell because I am more interested in competition than winning money. Winning a game in which I can see the other person's cards is not competition and not fun.

Basically, this is why I don't play poker anymore. The main motivating factor was becoming money instead of the mechanics of the game, and that, to me, was not fun. Haven't played in about 5 months and have no desire to.

[Pumpy Tudors]

So basically you guys are also saying that if you knew a way to deal of the bottom of the deck 100% of the time, do so. How is this ethical? How is this not cheating?
To compare the original question to bottom dealing is a real reach.

Anyway, I see this as being an interpretation of poker rules. As far as I know, there is no rule that says that you have to play without knowing what other people have. You're not allowed to touch anybody else's cards, but if they're being careless and not protecting their hand, it's not your responsibility to make sure that they do it. If they're unknowingly flashing their cards at you, they're making a mistake, but nobody's doing any "cheating." If they're knowingly flashing their cards, that just reeks of collusion, and that's a different case.

As far as whether to tell the player that she's showing her cards, I believe that that's to be done away from the table. First of all, there's no need to embarrass her in front of the other players. More importantly, if you say it in front of the other players, they're going to wonder if you've been watching her cards the whole time. They're going to want to know why you didn't say anything sooner. Personally, I wouldn't say anything. I wouldn't want an opponent to know that I noticed.

I understand that there are lots of people who play poker ONLY for fun. They may see it as -EV gambling, just like playing a slot machine. I also understand that there are people who are concerned with things like being "the good guy" and helping other players at the table. If that makes you feel good, no problem. If you're playing with at least some hope of making money in the long run, though, it hurts you every time you correct another player's mistake. If you're willing to let your conscience give money to people who know that they're gambling, so be it.

[cartman]

So basically you guys are also saying that if you knew a way to deal of the bottom of the deck 100% of the time, do so. How is this ethical? How is this not cheating?

I'll use a baseball analogy here:

A pitcher scuffing the baseball or throwing a spitball is cheating. This is analagous to dealing from the bottom of the deck.

Instead of using signs, the coach yells out "put down a sacrifice bunt on the next pitch". That is analagous to not protecting your hole cards.

[stevew]

The inverse of the question, "If you weren't protecting your cards, would someone you tell you?" is most likely no. You have no obligation to tell them.

[albionmoonlight]

Basically, this is why I don't play poker anymore. The main motivating factor was becoming money instead of the mechanics of the game, and that, to me, was not fun. Haven't played in about 5 months and have no desire to.

My friend's dad is a huge math guy. He's played poker for decades--way before it became "popular." He was saying that he actually likes it a lot less now that the game is popular and filled with lots of fish.

To him, it was a game of probability with just enough psychology thrown in to keep it interesting. He enjoyed the game, and didn't really care about the money. Now, there are so many really bad players out there that there is no challege for him. He can make more money now, of course, but he doesn't care about that.

Last I heard, he was playing a lot less poker because--as he said--shooting fish in a barrel just isn't as fun as you would think.

He is also aggrevated by the exploding popularity of no-limit games in particular. To him, no-limit is/was a bit too much about luck and psychology and a bit too little about sound mathematical play--which is what he enjoys most about the game.

[Radii]

I would discreetly point it out one time and tell the person to protect their cards. If they failed to after that, then I'd have no problem taking full advantage of it.

[VPI97]

definitely tell them
ditto.

[panerd]

I'll use a baseball analogy here:

A pitcher scuffing the baseball or throwing a spitball is cheating. This is analagous to dealing from the bottom of the deck.

Instead of using signs, the coach yells out "put down a sacrifice bunt on the next pitch". That is analagous to not protecting your hole cards.

Really good point. I guess I just don't want an advantage that is gained by no skill of my own. Like if the pitcher was tipping his pitches or my third base coach was stealing signs. If I found something I could exploit in FOF or BBCF that would cause to my always have an advantage but wasn't really related to any "gaming skill" I don't think I would use it.

[panerd]

To compare the original question to bottom dealing is a real reach.

Anyway, I see this as being an interpretation of poker rules. As far as I know, there is no rule that says that you have to play without knowing what other people have. You're not allowed to touch anybody else's cards, but if they're being careless and not protecting their hand, it's not your responsibility to make sure that they do it. If they're unknowingly flashing their cards at you, they're making a mistake, but nobody's doing any "cheating." If they're knowingly flashing their cards, that just reeks of collusion, and that's a different case.

As far as whether to tell the player that she's showing her cards, I believe that that's to be done away from the table. First of all, there's no need to embarrass her in front of the other players. More importantly, if you say it in front of the other players, they're going to wonder if you've been watching her cards the whole time. They're going to want to know why you didn't say anything sooner. Personally, I wouldn't say anything. I wouldn't want an opponent to know that I noticed.

I understand that there are lots of people who play poker ONLY for fun. They may see it as -EV gambling, just like playing a slot machine. I also understand that there are people who are concerned with things like being "the good guy" and helping other players at the table. If that makes you feel good, no problem. If you're playing with at least some hope of making money in the long run, though, it hurts you every time you correct another player's mistake. If you're willing to let your conscience give money to people who know that they're gambling, so be it.

I get where you are coming from also. But I look at it as poker etiquette, like talking about a hand when you aren't in or somebody asking to see the next card when the hand is over. It is technically wrong, but I am not going to do it.

About the only situation where I might would be if it is some dick who is being real bold about how great they are. And as far as the granny, I would be more apt to tell the hot chick to try to gain some non-poker points with her. :)

[st.cronin]

If I were a pro poker player, it would be a tough decision. Otherwise I think you have to say "hey, hide your cards, lady! I don't want to know what you have!"

[Glengoyne]

I don't think it's particularly unethical NOT to tell them, but I would probably tell them (my conscience is a bitch to deal with).

What he said.

[stevew]

Is it possible that showing some of her cards was also part of her strategy?

[Mustang]

Is it possible that showing some of her cards was also part of her strategy?

Not sure what she could gain from me seeing her cards. At the hour or so at the table with her, I never played heads up with her so, not as though she was trying to trick me. I just generally think she was sloppy with her cards.

By the way, she was in her mid 40's. (Not that that matters)

[Subby]

You absolutely have to tell them. It is the honorable and sporting thing to do.

That said, I agree with radii - you only should have to tell them once. After that, I guess they are fair game.

[primelord]

It is a +EV play NOT to tell them. The folks at TwoPlusTwo will call you a moron for doing otherwise.

You obviously haven't read the threads over at 2+2 dealing with this issue.

Not shockingly my views fall right in line with Radii and Subby on this one. It is absolutely unethical not to tell the person. I think you guys are missing the wrong ethical issue. It's not about you having an edge over the person whose cards you are seeing. It is the fact that you are gaining info of someone elses cards that no one else at the table gets. The edge you gain generally isn;t huge, but you still shouldn't have it.

With that being said I do think your only responsibility is to make the person aware of it. If you let the person know they are failing to protect their cards and they continue to flash their hand to you then so be it. That is all I would expect out of someone else at the table if they were in my position.

[QuikSand]

I also think there's some mileage to be had by being a "nice guy" at the table. Makes the time spent more enjoyable, and I think it actually can help your table image and improve your results, perhaps depending on your style of play.

[gkb]

In between hands I would lean over and quietly let her know that she should do a better job of hiding her cards.

[Lathum]

I'm surprised by how many people said you should tell them. I would only tell them after I had left the table.

I think the issue divides people who play for fun and people who play for money. When I play I play to make money, not to "have fun" or "be a nice guy".

I think it is comparable to check raising someone, is that ethical?

[TredWel]

Everybody gets one chance.

I'll wait until we're both out of a hand, and mention that she should protect her cards a little bit better. If she continues to show off her cards to me, I'm not going to say anything else.

[QuikSand]

I think the issue divides people who play for fun and people who play for money. When I play I play to make money, not to "have fun" or "be a nice guy".

Swing and a miss.

[Lathum]

I would love to hear Vegas Vic's take on this.

[primelord]

I'm surprised by how many people said you should tell them. I would only tell them after I had left the table.

I think the issue divides people who play for fun and people who play for money. When I play I play to make money, not to "have fun" or "be a nice guy".

I think it is comparable to check raising someone, is that ethical?

Again I think you are missing the actual ethical issue here. It's not about your edge over the person who is exposing their cards. It is their job to protect their cards and if it was just you and them I would say it would be foolish to tell them.

However you should not have an edge over the guy across the table from you just because the player next to you can't hide their cards well. For that reason alone you should at least mention it to the player as I would expect someone else to do if they were in my shoes. If the player refuses to protect their cards after that then so be it. It is unethical not to make the attempt though.

Saying it is about playing for money vs. playing for fun is silly. There are a lot of angles you can shoot to try to give you an edge that theoretically will make you more moeny. That doesn't make them ethical.

[Lathum]

I disagree with the whole "edge over the other players" issue. If I pick up a tell on a player that gives me an edge as well, am I suposed to share that information?

[Lathum]

dola- and when I say "for fun" i still mean they are playing for real movey, just that they are playing more for recreational purposes.

[Pumpy Tudors]

i once checkraised a man just to watch him die

[Schmidty]

What's a check raise? I play sometimes, but I don't know poker lingo.

[Pumpy Tudors]

What's a check raise? I play sometimes, but I don't know poker lingo.
You act before your opponent. You check, he bets, then you raise him.

Many players consider checkraising unethical because it's "trickery" or something. However, it's a perfectly legal play that should be at least a part of every decent player's game.

[chinaski]

What's a check raise? I play sometimes, but I don't know poker lingo.

When a player first checks and then raises in a betting round.

[primelord]

I disagree with the whole "edge over the other players" issue. If I pick up a tell on a player that gives me an edge as well, am I suposed to share that information?

Again that is not even close to the same situation. Thet tell is out there for everyone to see. If you pick up on it and they don't then bully for you. They still had the opportunity to do so. The hole cards are not available for everyone to see. This gives you an unfiar advantge.

[primelord]

You act before your opponent. You check, he bets, then you raise him.

Many players consider checkraising unethical because it's "trickery" or something. However, it's a perfectly legal play that should be at least a part of every decent player's game.

Who in their right mind thinks a check-raise is unethical?

[QuikSand]

Who in their right mind thinks a check-raise is unethical?

A surprisng number of old school poker players, and home players. There are a sizable number of organized games that still disallow the checkraise.

*(edit -- sorry, missed the "right mind" comment... which applies to none of the aforementioned folks)

[Pumpy Tudors]

Who in their right mind thinks a check-raise is unethical?
Nobody in their right mind, but plenty of players do. I've even heard people go as far as to call it cheating. It's silly, I know, but it happens.

[Lathum]

If you read the rules in most cardsrooms they actually say it is the players responsibility to protect their hole cards.

It also usually says that check raising is permited.

[Captain2711]

Nobody in their right mind, but plenty of players do. I've even heard people go as far as to call it cheating. It's silly, I know, but it happens.

I once played hold em with Sam Huff on a train and I checked raised him. He played the hand and then sternly looked at me and said 'You know in some places in West Virginia you could be given a beat down for check raising someone.' Didn't do it to him again.

[Axxon]

I'd tell them. It's a low stakes game and my purpose for playing would be to improve my game and this form of advantage doesn't improve your game and the stakes aren't worth enough to possibly weaken my game by getting into bad habits.

Also, the appearance of fair play and ethics is worth more than the possible gains in money so even if you don't find it ethically wrong to do it, it's worth doing if you play the table/people regularly.

[Swaggs]

I'm with radii here. Tell them once. It seems like better sportsmanship to do it that way.

[primelord]

If you read the rules in most cardsrooms they actually say it is the players responsibility to protect their hole cards.

So you honestly see no ethical issue with having an advantage over the rest of the table just because the guy next to you can't protect his hole cards?

[Lathum]

So you honestly see no ethical issue with having an advantage over the rest of the table just because the guy next to you can't protect his hole cards?
nope, I really don't.

[Subby]

I think the issue divides people who play for fun and people who play for money. When I play I play to make money, not to "have fun" or "be a nice guy".Oh nice. Make big money in ONE tourney and now you get all big time on us. ;)

[Logan]

I wouldn't say anything. Here's why: I've seen one player point out to another player that they were flashing their hole cards, I believe, 4 times while playing in casinos (I'm not a huge player...probably only about 50 hours of play in my 2 years of making random trips to AC). So in the 4 times it happened:

- 1 time, the guy was very appreciative
- 1 time, the woman seemed extremely embarassed and probably said 2 words for the rest of her time at the table, after engaging in regular conversation throughout
- 2 times, the guys who were told (nicely) that they were showing their cards, got PISSED at the kind soul. In both instances, they said that the other person was trying to cheat by purposely looking at their cards.

I don't need shit like that if I'm trying to do something right. I'll keep my mouth shut.

[stevew]

- 2 times, the guys who were told (nicely) that they were showing their cards, got PISSED at the kind soul. In both instances, they said that the other person was trying to cheat by purposely looking at their cards.




Yeah, i could easily see that happen.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

In between hands I would lean over, look down her blouse, and quietly let her know that she should do a better job of hiding her cards.

Fixed.