Ping: Poker Folks

[Vince]

Today, I was playing $0.10/$0.20 Hold 'Em on Pokerstars. I'm curious as to what you think of my pre-flop play on a particular hand.

On the Big Blind, I was dealt 67 of Diamonds.
UTG Limps.
S1 Folds
S2 Raises.
S3 Re-Raises.
Button Caps it.
SB Folds.

I ended up calling the capped bet pre-flop. I know suited connectors play better in multi-way pots, but I figured with all the raisers that at least S3 would call, and more than likely S2 would as well -- pretty good implied odds, even without the limper calling.

I don't pretend to be a good player, but I'd like to think I know what I'm doing (when I'm paying attention to the game and not doing three other things at the same time). Is my call at all defensible?

[SirFozzie]

You might have priced yourself in, in No Fold Em Hold Em tables, but at a real table, you'd be lunchmeat

[Vince]

Yeah, the fact I was at a micro-limit table had a lot to do with my action. Pretty much what I expected to hear.

[k0ruptr]

.10/.20 sure what the hell. but yea what fozzie said.

[Lathum]

I actually disagree with fozzie. You should play the same way regardless of the stakes.

Lets say the game was 5/10 limit. Assuming all parties involved called it would cost you another $15 dollars into a $65 pot, pretty good odds. It is safe to assume someone has a big hand aces, kings or queens. I would also assume someone has a big ace so most of the cards that can hurt you are already out of the deck. Suited connecters are great to play in big multi way pots because you can win a monster pot. If you hit the flop big no one can put you on a hand and you are gonna get paid by someone, granted most of the time you miss but then it is easy to get away from the hand.

[Tyrith]

From a purely mathematical standpoint, I did this hand.

Player 1: 6d7d
Player 2: AsKs
Player 3: KcKh
Player 4: QdQh

Player 1 is about 22 percent to win before the flop. This makes your pot odds not quite good enough to call. However, there is some merit to thinking the implied odds are good there, as if there is a ragged flop that hits you, like 67x or 589 you can probably fleece one of them, and you'll know to walk away the rest of the time. It's not a terrible call, but also not a situation you want to be in a lot, as it's a good way to dump tons of money.

[Vince]

Thanks for the responses guys. If I'm going to play a hand like this, I just need to make sure I'm not doing it very often...and if you're going to play the hand, get hit hard or get out right away. Here's how the rest of the hand went down...

Vince: (6d7d) Calls
UTG Folds
S2 Calls
S3 Calls
($1.75 pot before the flop, 4 players)

Flop: 4d 5d 8d

So I flopped a straight flush. I slow-played the hell out of it, and didn't get as much action as I'd like. Checked all the way around to the button on the flop, who bet. I didn't raise for fear of chasing out S2 and S3, and it was checked around again after the turn (10s), until the Button bet. Again, I didn't want to lose S2 and S3, so I simply called. S2 and S3 stayed around, but both ran away from my check-raise on the river (4h), and the Button merely called, rather than 3-betting it. Ended up winning about a $4 pot.

I think the main problem with my game is that I try to get 'cute' like this too often, when I should only be making this sort of play very rarely.

[flere-imsaho]

Wow, nice flop. :)

[Barkeep49]

I think you'd have been better off check raising on the flop as you'd then have built pot odds for people to stay around later on if you want to put in a raise.

[Fighter of Foo]

No Slowplaying in low limit!!!!!!! :D

[Lathum]

I think the only time you play hands like that is when it is a multi way pot and you are going to be the last one to throw in chips.

[kcchief19]

Yeah, I think this is a case of the result being a success, but not necessarily being the ideal move preflop. If I'm playing low suited connectors I generally want to see a flop cheaply. With four bets preflop, you're almost guaranteed to be up against a high pocket pair or a strong suited ace. As Tyrith noted above, you're probably close to a 4-1 dog. Capping preflop there is almost a break-even proposition at best.

Of course, when the hand hits in the right situation, you can win big. If somebody had AJd and someone else had KQd, you could have hit a much bigger pot. But now you're hoping that you hit the hand AND that one or two other players hit their hand. And even if you hit a flush that's not a straight, you run the risk of someone hitting a bigger straight.

As I said, I really like playing suited connectors -- but I like to play them cheap and I don't like to play them against three others. With low suited connectors, you're almost always going to be a significant preflop dog which means more often than not that you're still going to be behind after the flop.

But congrats on the hand -- I can't remember the last time I hit a straight flush.

[primelord]

A couple thoughts on this hand.

The people who think that the 3 raisers are all holding premium hands here are giving these villans way too much credit. It is .10/.20. They cap with all kinds of crap. It really doesn't make a giant difference in terms of Vince's situation since he is certainly releasing on the flop if he misses a big hand, but just in general you don't want to be giving opponents that much credit at that low of a limit.

When I first saw this I wanted to say I didn't like the preflop call. However when it gets back to you you are getting 4.5:1 if only the two original raisers call and 5.5:1 if the original limper calls as well. These are really low limits so players are going to go way too far with their hands often. You're implied odds in this situation are pretty great. I think a call is fine.

After the flop you should be thinking about what the best way to get money into the pot. As others have said slow playing in low limit games is usually pointless. They call bets with awful hands and take them way too far. They also call bets, even multiple bets, far more on the flop than any other street because they see room for improvement in their hands. You have 3 opponents who went 4 bets preflop so they seem to like their hands. You should be building a pot here.

Always remember what your position is relative to the preflop raiser. The button capped which means if you check the other opponents are likely to check to him. So a check raise is not a good play here. They will check to the button who bets and when you raise you face them with calling two cold. In this huge pot they still have the odds to draw to a lot of hands, but the poor players also likely don't understand the odds and may fold anyway. If you lead out on the flop they will most likely call. Then if you are lucky the button will raise. From there you should 3 bet. The players caught in the middle are far more likely to call two bets when they have already put money into the pot that street than if they were facing two cold. Then the button may cap. Take the same approach on the turn and river. In this situation it is bet to just keep betting.

[Vince]

Yeah, that's a good point -- I was very disappointed when the first two raisers did not bet after my check, and only the button bet. After my check, I knew that I couldn't raise, or they would probably get out of the hand.

[Vince]

Wow, nice flop. :)

I think my words were more like "Holy shit!", but yeah. It worked :)

[primelord]

Yeah, that's a good point -- I was very disappointed when the first two raisers did not bet after my check, and only the button bet. After my check, I knew that I couldn't raise, or they would probably get out of the hand.

There was one other reason I forgot to mention for playing flop strong here. This is a very coordinated board. If another diamond falls it is almost certainly going to kill your action. Unless someone else has a high diamond they will go into a shell or fold when a 4th diamond hits. To a lesser extent this may happen if a 6 or 7 falls as well.