The Motor City Comic Con bust

[WVUFAN]

Link to information:

hxxp://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72163 (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72163)

I know this has probably been discussed earlier, but I came upon this a few days ago, and I just am wondering about this.

Anyone who has ever been to a comic convention in the last, oh, 20 years knows that bootleg DVD's are sold there, especially of unreleased TV shows and movies (Justice League live action pilot, the Star Wars Christmas Special, the Buffy pilot). The police knew this was going on, and deemed it not really worthy of producing a big bust over until the MPAA and the RIAA complained.

My only question is -- when did the police become the property of the MPAA and RIAA? When did these two blackmailing companies get to determine police actions?

It just seems very screwy to me.

[Franklinnoble]

Reading that just makes me miss Napster. I hate the RIAA and MPAA. They don't do squat for the little guy, and all they're worried about is making the rich even richer. ASCAP is the same way.

[st.cronin]

If the police come to your house to investigate a bulgary after you called them, does that mean you own the cops?

You see, it's a different argument - whether something should be illegal, as opposed to whether the cops should enforce a law. Laws, whether you agree with them or not, should be enforced.

[Franklinnoble]

Yeah, the difference is, if I tell the police that my neighbor is stealing hubcaps, they don't show up in full swat gear and raid his house. The MPAA/RIAA is getting a LOT more pull with law enforcement than your average citizen.

[WVUFAN]

My point is that the police knew about this and chose to do nothing because it's, quite frankly, a waste of their time. When the police go from that to full riot gear is telling.

I mean, this is a freaking comic book convention! This sort of show of force is ridiculous.

[hukarez]

Yikes...

Time to keep my eyes peeled when I head for Comic Con this coming July.

[bulletsponge]

full swat gear?! they must have been afraid of the nerds with lightsabers and phasers

[Abe Sargent]

Yeah, the difference is, if I tell the police that my neighbor is stealing hubcaps, they don't show up in full swat gear and raid his house. The MPAA/RIAA is getting a LOT more pull with law enforcement than your average citizen.


This wasn't a few hubcaps it was around 30,000 suspected items. If your neighbor was stealing 30,000 hubcaps with a chain of 14-15 people, you can bet the police would absolutely raid the neighbor.

-Anxiety

[WVUFAN]

So if this was such a major crime, why didn't the police bust them last year? Two years ago? Five years ago? They've known about this for years, at all the major conventions. Heck, security for the Pittsburgh Con and the San Diego Con is provided by off-duty police officers, so it's obvious they were aware.

Again, I say that the extortion experts at the MPAA and RIAA forced the police into an action they were unwilling up to that point to enforce. That, to me, puts the police in those companies back pocket.

[Abe Sargent]

So if this was such a major crime, why didn't the police bust them last year? Two years ago? Five years ago? They've known about this for years, at all the major conventions. Heck, security for the Pittsburgh Con and the San Diego Con is provided by off-duty police officers, so it's obvious they were aware.

Again, I say that the extortion experts at the MPAA and RIAA forced the police into an action they were unwilling up to that point to enforce. That, to me, puts the police in those companies back pocket.


Do you honestly see what you just said? You just pointed out that off-duty police officer are MAKING MONEY off these guys, and then wonder if the police are in the pockets of the RIAA? Why wouldn't you assume the exact opposite, that they are in the pockets of these conventions?


-Anxiety

[WVUFAN]

Do you honestly see what you just said? You just pointed out that off-duty police officer are MAKING MONEY off these guys, and then wonder if the police are in the pockets of the RIAA? Why wouldn't you assume the exact opposite, that they are in the pockets of these conventions?

But they're not making money off of the dealers -- they're hired by the convention, who isn't responsible for what dealers sell. They're not beholden to any specific dealer.

My point is -- when action isn't taken by police until the RIAA and MPAA, who are notorious for underhanded, extortion-ish dealings (suing XM, suing a 12 year old, suing people who don't own computers for downloading songs), and then the police go from doing nothing to a full raid on a comic book convention with full gear (as if they're some dealer at the con with a Uzi under the desk) -- this tells me they're doing the bidding of the MPAA and RIAA. Which strikes me as wrong.

[st.cronin]

It sounds like you concede these dealers are breaking the law. Once you concede that, you then complain that the victims of this law are bad, and therefore the police should not protect them. Dangerous thinking, there.

[WVUFAN]

It sounds like you concede these dealers are breaking the law. Once you concede that, you then complain that the victims of this law are bad, and therefore the police should not protect them. Dangerous thinking, there.

You're right. I do concede that they broke the law (now whether it should be a crime is a different discussion), but it's very hard to have anything less than utter contempt for the "victims". I certainly think the police went overboard and only did so at the behest of these companies. They would have never raided, even with knowledge, unless pressured by these two companies. That, to me, means the police didn't feel it warrented police action and was told to do so by a corporation.

[oykib]

Well I think you have two issues here.

When I was living back home, I used to go to the Big Apple Comic Con. You had Bootlegs of raw anime before anime became popular, as well as bootlegs of old TV shows and cartoons and CD compilations f cartoon theme songs.

If they've expanded to include the bootlegs of current movies, even if it's only a few of the vendors, I don't see how the police can ignore it.

The other stuff falls into the category of victimless crime to me. At least it's not worth significant police resources.

[Greyroofoo]

People were breaking the law. Police busted them.

I don't see the problem.

[st.cronin]

People were breaking the law. Police busted them.

I don't see the problem.

Yeah I really don't get the point of complaining about the police enforcing the law.

[Flasch186]

If the police come to your house to investigate a bulgary after you called them, does that mean you own the cops?

You see, it's a different argument - whether something should be illegal, as opposed to whether the cops should enforce a law. Laws, whether you agree with them or not, should be enforced.

Tell that to the immigration czar, but i digress...

I actually agree with you, if they know that they are doing something wrong than they cant cry when the authority figures come a knockin'.

[Abe Sargent]

WVUFan, I think you need to reassess. The RIAA represents some of the very people who are losing money to pirates.

The people who are losing money specifically point out to the police that yes this is going on and yes we have observers and yes it is here right this minute in monstrous quantities.

Why shouldn't the police protect the property of those who call and ask them to when the law is being broken this second?

Right that moment, theft was going on, some of the owners of that property called, the police went. What is wrong with that series of events?

On may campus, DPS prioritizes things ahead of marijuana. But if I call them and let them know that right now, 15 people are smoking marijuana in a room in my building, then altoguh they may not patrol for marijuana, they arrive in force, as they should.

If they prioritize active policing of pirating lower than other crimes, that's fine. But when police are tipped off that something major is going on, they should still respond, right? Lots of crimes are prioritized lower than others, like prostitution, gambling, and so forth. But, when police are tipped off that it is happening now, or on a large enough scale, they come in. Which they should do.

I don't see even the beginning of a problem here. If an artist saw his own pictures being copied and sold on a massive sclae from one of his comics, and he called the police, I doubt you'd have a problem. The RIAA and MPAA represent the same group of people as the artist, so why should that be any different?

-Anxiety

[ISiddiqui]

Do you honestly see what you just said? You just pointed out that off-duty police officer are MAKING MONEY off these guys, and then wonder if the police are in the pockets of the RIAA? Why wouldn't you assume the exact opposite, that they are in the pockets of these conventions?

Exactly. Maybe the convention center says don't bother them unless you have to. When the RIAA and MPAA called, they had no choice anymore.

[WVUFAN]

WVUFan, I think you need to reassess. The RIAA represents some of the very people who are losing money to pirates.

The MPAA and RIAA doesn't represent the artists that makes the movies or the songs -- they represent the companies, so money that is made from the extortions-- er, lawsuits doesn't go to the people who deserve it. Again, I have no respect for any organization that resorts to blackmail to get what they want. They're greedy, moneygrubbing lowlifes that deserve NOTHING but distain.

If the artists were actually losing money from these, that'd be one thing. A great majority of bootleg DVD's that are sold at these conventions are of UNRELEASED items, so neither the company nor the artists that made them are losing anything. Roger Corman isn't losing money from some bootleg selling a copy of his Fantastic Four movie when he chose to never release it. The actors don't lose any more from it, and neither does anyone who worked on the film. It's a victimless "crime" that shouldn't be a crime to begin with (again, different discussion, but I had to say it)

So, I disagree with your inference that the RIAA and MPAA are anything than what they are -- the true criminals in this situation.

[Hurst2112]

The MPAA and RIAA doesn't represent the artists that makes the movies or the songs -- they represent the companies

They represent the companies that hold publishing and copyrights.

AC/DC owns its own publishing as do a few other larger bands.

Your take is a bit off in that regard.

[Abe Sargent]

You are arguing the ethics of the law against the enforcement of the law. You need to pick a lane. Either the police were wrong to go in force because it was overenforcement, or the RIAA are a bunch of mean bastards and you don't want our law enforcement to associate with it.

Pick a lane.

-Anxiety


FYI - They do lose money for unreleased items all of the time. Becaese I can choose when to relase my product, I may want to time it with something else to increase interest or when I need the money or when I have time to do it right because I don't want my DVD to have nothing on it, or whatever. We don't have a RIGHT to buy and own something unless the owner chooses to sell it. It hurts potential sales and there are examples in teh music indutry of very rare version of songs or mixes or covers that were in high demand that the labels were collecting for release but then piracy came along and because people thougth they had a right to the music that they didn't make or record and downloaded these rares versions, the commercial value dropped significantly. I remember an article about an Indy label that has quietly been collecting rare remixes of 80's hits a from electronic Brit pop groups over time and was going to release a compilation when interesst dropped as people downloaded the songs. Are you going to say that those people were right to do that? I doubt it.

[Axxon]

Yep,

I'm against the RIAA and the MPAA but respect their right to legally enforce their legally held rights. The problem is these rights themselves, not the enforcement IMHO.

Still, as long as people are buying they're voting. If enough people quit buying their products they would have to change their tactics to survive. Enough people don't so they can hamhandedly enforce their rights. The public has spoken IMHO and the majority rules.

Actually, they are changing. They're making more of their products available online and at a reasonable price and the public is buying. I use Rhapsody. I get a huge collection of music which I want, I can put it on my portable if I choose and I pay $9.95 a month ( a bit more if I downloaded the stuff ). About the same as satellite radio and I get to choose what I listen too and when.

Now, I'd love to be able to download for free but I enjoy what I get and I'd still use it over p2p. It works for me. I symapthize with those that it doesn't work for; I sincerely do but the reward is great for me and I don't need the risk or to support something I'm morally against ( even vs something I'm more morally against. I'm not a do the lesser of two evils guy ). I guess that's how the market works.

[wade moore]

You are arguing the ethics of the law against the enforcement of the law. You need to pick a lane. Either the police were wrong to go in force because it was overenforcement, or the RIAA are a bunch of mean bastards and you don't want our law enforcement to associate with it.

Pick a lane.



Anxiety hit the nail on the head here.

You're claiming that the RIAA/MPAA are "criminals". Might want to look up the definition of this word, as far as I can see suing XM and 12 year-olds is not criminal, it is actually using a mechanism available to everyone through the law.

And regardless of what you feel are bad maneuvers by the RIAA/MPAA - these people are BREAKING THE LAW and they deserve to be raided and punished.

I'll use Franklin's statement earlier against you... if all of a sudden Immigration raided a day-labor site and picked up illegal immigrants because a US Worker's Rights group insisted that this massive hiring of illegals was going on, would you complain? I don't think so, you would be jumping for joy.

You can have a debate about the value of the laws (and I'd go at it with you all day ;) ), but to argue that the police are evil because they are enforcing the laws on the books is just absurd.

[wade moore]

shameless bump as i found this discussion interesting.

[WVUFAN]

Wade, you and Anxiety have excellent points, as I was doing exactly what you two said I was. So, sticking to just the enforcement aspect, since that's how I started the topic.

Why haven't the police taken action prior to this? If the crime was worthy of riot gear, why didn't they bust this last year or prior years?

[ISiddiqui]

Probably because they didn't consider it that big of problem. You know, kind of a police 'triage' which goes on everywhere. They can only focus on a limited number of potential/actual crimes. Though when the RIAA and MPAA start calling and knowing the potential for bad PR for the police dept, they probably decided to do something about it this time.

[WVUFAN]

Probably because they didn't consider it that big of problem. You know, kind of a police 'triage' which goes on everywhere. They can only focus on a limited number of potential/actual crimes. Though when the RIAA and MPAA start calling and knowing the potential for bad PR for the police dept, they probably decided to do something about it this time.

Doesn't that seem .. I dunno .. dangerous to you, when corporations beginning to dictate the type of crimes police investigate?

[ISiddiqui]

Doesn't that seem .. I dunno .. dangerous to you, when corporations beginning to dictate the type of crimes police investigate?

Nope. Police can't investigate everything and there is nothing wrong with a group pointing out crime and being annoying enough to make it worth the police's while to go deal with it... its not much different than a neighborhood watch.

[Axxon]

Doesn't that seem .. I dunno .. dangerous to you, when corporations beginning to dictate the type of crimes police investigate?

They're not dictating what the police investigate. They're reporting a crime that is happening to them. I'd really hope that anyone, corporation or citizen, who reports a crime that they are a victim of, will get the crime investigated.

That's the point here.

It's a crime. It was reported. It has to be investigated.

Should a corporation have less of a right to legal protection as an individual?

Should the police be in the business of saying "yes, it's against the law but we really don't care so move on" to anyone?

[stevew]

I wonder if that un-released Fantastic 4 movie was any good.

[stevew]

In this day and age, I would be skeptical that I was actually getting authentic comics, especially the older ones. With the advancements in home technology, they'd seemingly be much easier to duplicate.

[wade moore]

They're not dictating what the police investigate. They're reporting a crime that is happening to them. I'd really hope that anyone, corporation or citizen, who reports a crime that they are a victim of, will get the crime investigated.

That's the point here.

It's a crime. It was reported. It has to be investigated.

Should a corporation have less of a right to legal protection as an individual?

Should the police be in the business of saying "yes, it's against the law but we really don't care so move on" to anyone?

Axxon summed up my thoughts well. You seem hung up on this, "evil corporation running law enforcement angle," and I think it's flawed. If a neighberhood has people constantly flying through it at 50 mph, the police will often not pay any attention to it. But if then 50% of the neighberhood calls the police station every day, eventually they're going to setup speed traps. This is no different imo. The police make decisions on where to focus their energy every day, and a piece of it has to be based on where they are getting complaints about criminal activity going on that is going unpunished.

[cthomer5000]

I wonder if that un-released Fantastic 4 movie was any good.

it's freakin awful. I downloaded it a couple years back and watched it. hilariously bad, the special effects/makeup are like made for TV quality.

[stevew]

it's freakin awful. I downloaded it a couple years back and watched it. hilariously bad, the special effects/makeup are like made for TV quality.

That's sort of what I had heard. I wasn't too impressed with the Big Budget version, I just thought the whole situation was interesting. They spend money to keep the rights of a property by making a film that goes into the can...when the property finally gets all star treatment, it doesnt do that well.

[sabotai]

it's freakin awful. I downloaded it a couple years back and watched it. hilariously bad, the special effects/makeup are like made for TV quality.

Downloaded it?

Someone call the SWAT team!!! We have a pirate here!!!

[JonInMiddleGA]

So, I disagree with your inference that the RIAA and MPAA are anything than what they are -- the true criminals in this situation.

If that's really what you believe here, you either need to grow the fuck up or stop smoking shit that makes you stupid.

Seriously dude, if that's how you think, I honestly don't believe you belong out on the streets with the sane population. The lack of judgemental ability you display makes you a great candidate for committal AFAIC, you lack the ability to reason.

[WVUFAN]

If that's really what you believe here, you either need to grow the fuck up or stop smoking shit that makes you stupid.

Seriously dude, if that's how you think, I honestly don't believe you belong out on the streets with the sane population. The lack of judgemental ability you display makes you a great candidate for committal AFAIC, you lack the ability to reason.

I'm not the only one who thinks so. My problem with these two organizations isn't what they do, or what they are trying to enforce, but HOW they do it.

- Suing underaged children and people without computers
- Trying to force internet companies to give up customer information
- Extorting or attempting to extort money from people with threat of criminal and civil action
- Hiring hackers to destroy personal computers and injecting viruses into networks.
- inserting spyware into music CD's

Link: http://www.boycott-riaa.com/facts/truth

This organization is scum. I'm not the only one who thinks so. Should all of us be committed?

[wade moore]

I'm not the only one who thinks so. My problem with these two organizations isn't what they do, or what they are trying to enforce, but HOW they do it.

- Suing underaged children and people without computers
- Trying to force internet companies to give up customer information
- Extorting or attempting to extort money from people with threat of criminal and civil action
- Hiring hackers to destroy personal computers and injecting viruses into networks.
- inserting spyware into music CD's

Link: http://www.boycott-riaa.com/facts/truth

This organization is scum. I'm not the only one who thinks so. Should all of us be committed?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think it was just a poor use of the word "criminal" in this context...

I don't think (although I could be wrong) you believe they are literally commiting criminal acts. More you think something like, "the way they act should be criminal". In the context of actual debate about people breaking the law though, it muddles the point.

If you simply stated that the RIAA and MPAA are scum, I would agree with you in some aspects (although not in others). But saying they are criminal, especially in the context of this discussion is inaccurate imo.

[WVUFAN]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think it was just a poor use of the word "criminal" in this context...

I don't think (although I could be wrong) you believe they are literally commiting criminal acts. More you think something like, "the way they act should be criminal". In the context of actual debate about people breaking the law though, it muddles the point.

If you simply stated that the RIAA and MPAA are scum, I would agree with you in some aspects (although not in others). But saying they are criminal, especially in the context of this discussion is inaccurate imo.

You are right, the term criminal was an exaggeration on my part.