Owners Of Two Dogs - Another Question

[Honolulu_Blue]

This is not a parody thread. It seems like we go through phases around here. A few months ago it was buying a house now it's dog questions.

Anyway, here's my dilema. Lady H_B and I have been thinking about getting a dog for a while now. I always had a dog growing up and have wanted to get my own since I left home. We finally have bought a house that has a nice fenced in yard and we're at a place in life where we were ready.

We decided to get two dogs so they could keep each other company while we weren't around and the like.

So we went to Detroit Animal control last week and adopted two puppies. Duncan, a five month old yellow lab mix, and Aegon (Egg), a three month old black lab mix. We thought it would work out well since Egg had all sorts of energy and Duncan was pretty laid back and submissive.

Typically before doing something like this we do a ton of research to make sure we're doing the right thing. But for whatever reason, we just went with some conventional wisdom and thought getting two puppies would be the best thing for the dogs.

As it turns out, we were apparently wrong. Duncan was always very submissive and while not nervous around people, he just didn't seem all that interested in them. We figured that would change in time, but it really hasn't. Now Egg, who is naturally inclined to like people, is growing more distant. The two are bonding with each other and the expense of bonding with either my wife or me or with people in general.

We grew concerned last night and started looking into things and doing some research. So far not a ONE has said it's a good idea. They run the gamut from, "it's not recommended, but if you do it, here's how to socialize them. It's three times the work of one puppy and probably still won't stop them from bonding more to each other", to "DON'T DO IT, IT WILL NOT WORK. They will not bond to you, and once they reach maturity they will fight incessantly." Most articles recommend getting rid of one puppy, and training them separately as a distant second.

By bonding with each other, the dogs will become harder to train (since they don't feel the need to please people as much), thus more unruly, and likely to start fighting once they get older.

This is turning out to be true. Duncan showed a little progress the first few days in responding to people, but that's faded away. And now Egg is starting to become more distant too. This isn't just a case of "my puppy doesn't love me!", but more a serious concern about the long-term viability of keeping and raising both dogs.


This is really killing us. We're both big animal people. We found a stray cat last year, started to feed her a bit, went through every effort we could to find her owners, found out she was pregnant, paid $600 for an in-pregnancy spay (the vet highly reccomended it), and finally found her a good home. (Allergies prevented us from keeping her ourselves). So we just want the best for these dogs, but it seems pretty clear now that raising them together, even if we put forth all the effort required (which we've tried to do) may not be what's best. Almost everything we've read has said as much.

At the moment, we considering giving Duncan up for adoption at the local humane society. It's something I'd never thought I do, ever, but it's looking like the best option. I figured if it needs to be done, it should be done now before they grow more attached to each other, more distant from people, and while Dunk is still young and puppyish.

Thoughts?

[wade moore]

I don't have time to write the lon reply that I really want, and will later... but...

I don't buy anyone saying that at less than 6 months any dog is doomed to be the way they are without any changes.

A) Read up on the "right" way to establish dominance. Part of the concern here seems to be that they will not see you (or your wife) as the "leader of the pack". You MUST be the leader of the pack or anything else you do will not matter. You may think you are doing this, but there are many little things that I did not know about before I read up on it. I'll give specifics when I have more time to post, but I would recommend to you what I recommended to HA, read "Puppies for Dummies".

B) There is no automatic with two dogs. You can read how albion's dogs are best companions. My dogs pretty much hate each other and their normal mode of operation runs something like the "ignore" button. So, there are some inherent personalities in dogs imo, but also at this young age you can do a lot to groom those personalities.

C) Can you explain a little bit about how you spend time with them? Any dog not bonding with their owners seems weird to me, so i'm curious as to what you mean by them being distant, etc. Again I think this could have to do with the "leader of the pack" issue.


I'll write more later, but my gut feeling is this is far from a lost cause.

[gi]

I had this sort of thing with my standard poodle as a puppy. I only had her. She is almost two years old now, and not until a couple months ago did she display any sort of affection towards me or my finance. She was distant and had me worried that she didn't 'love' me. A couple of things that I did, that the Animal Behavior Institute (Now closed, they were located in Pleasant Ridge) told me to do, helped. Make sure that you are the provider and that they know it. Always make them sit and stay for food. If they break 'stay', no food today. Harsh, but neccisary. That was one trick. Another is leash bonding. Put the leash through your belt loop and then put the end that clicks on the dog through the leash handle. Attach to the dog. Now the dog has to go where you go. Generally ignore the dog and go about your day. Inconvient for you, but this is a time investment process. Have your wife leash bond one dog while you another. Keep the leashs at six feet. Make sure you and your wife are going into different rooms so the dogs have to follow whomever they are leashed too. This helped me as well. Consider behavior training or assistance. I know is sounds weird, but there are expects in dog behavior that can help you for a price.

Hope this helps.

[Franklinnoble]

You paid $600 for an in-pregnancy spay?

Why?

The local animal outreach here will spay cats for $30, pregnant or not (in fact, they encourage people to spay the pregnant ones and keep the litters from being born).

Oh, and I've never bought two pups at a time. We've always introduced new dogs in stages... so I don't have any wisdom for you on this issue.

[gi]

"Puppies for Dummies".

They had a lot of good info in it, but trainers I went to disagreed with a some of it too. Correctly establishing domance is the most important thing. Remembering that FORCE is never to be used. Never put the dog on its back and lay on them. That just makes you a person the dog doesn't want to be around.

[Honolulu_Blue]

C) Can you explain a little bit about how you spend time with them? Any dog not bonding with their owners seems weird to me, so i'm curious as to what you mean by them being distant, etc. Again I think this could have to do with the "leader of the pack" issue.


I'll write more later, but my gut feeling is this is far from a lost cause.

Thanks for the reply.

I'll try explain. It's more Duncan than Egg, but he's incredibly distant. He never makes eye contact. Even when getting pets he just sits there. No tail wagging or anything. When I come home from work he gets excited for a second or two, wags the tail, looks up, sniffs my hand, realizes I have nothing from him and then he walks away.

He is just completely dis-interested in people. Again, he doesn't get nervous or jittery. He never snaps at people. He moves away sometimes when you pet him. And if he doesn't, he just sits there, with no real reaction at all. He has no interest at all in any sort of "games" or any sort of interaction at all with us. I'll be running around in the backyard with Egg and Duncan just sits there and watches and if he does get up to "play" it's only because he's following Egg. If the other dog isn't around, he's really not interested in people at all.

Not sure if those rambling paragraphs made any sense.

[albionmoonlight]

Are they the same gender? Dogs tend to fight more if they are the same age and the same gender. We have been told to always make them different genders.

As for your more specific question, I can't really help you. We got Cadie when we were in an apartment and did not have room for two dogs. We had her for about a year before we got a house and could get Freddie. So we did do the "get one dog, socalize it, then get another" thing--though it was not intentional. It was just a lucky break.

And they really had no problem bonding with each other or with us. We are about to get a second dog now for Freddie (Cadie passed away last month) and I hope that it is the same way. Freddie has bonded to and respects us. And his new sister will (hopefully) follow his lead.

Good luck with your decision. Maybe ask for recommendations for good dog trainers in the area. They may be able to help you with tips on how to manage two puppies at once.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I had this sort of thing with my standard poodle as a puppy. I only had her. She is almost two years old now, and not until a couple months ago did she display any sort of affection towards me or my finance. She was distant and had me worried that she didn't 'love' me. A couple of things that I did, that the Animal Behavior Institute (Now closed, they were located in Pleasant Ridge) told me to do, helped. Make sure that you are the provider and that they know it. Always make them sit and stay for food. If they break 'stay', no food today. Harsh, but neccisary. That was one trick. Another is leash bonding. Put the leash through your belt loop and then put the end that clicks on the dog through the leash handle. Attach to the dog. Now the dog has to go where you go. Generally ignore the dog and go about your day. Inconvient for you, but this is a time investment process. Have your wife leash bond one dog while you another. Keep the leashs at six feet. Make sure you and your wife are going into different rooms so the dogs have to follow whomever they are leashed too. This helped me as well. Consider behavior training or assistance. I know is sounds weird, but there are expects in dog behavior that can help you for a price.

Hope this helps.

It does, thanks.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Are they the same gender? Dogs tend to fight more if they are the same age and the same gender. We have been told to always make them different genders.

As for your more specific question, I can't really help you. We got Cadie when we were in an apartment and did not have room for two dogs. We had her for about a year before we got a house and could get Freddie. So we did do the "get one dog, socalize it, then get another" thing--though it was not intentional. It was just a lucky break.

And they really had no problem bonding with each other or with us. We are about to get a second dog now for Freddie (Cadie passed away last month) and I hope that it is the same way. Freddie has bonded to and respects us. And his new sister will (hopefully) follow his lead.

Good luck with your decision. Maybe ask for recommendations for good dog trainers in the area. They may be able to help you with tips on how to manage two puppies at once.

Yeah, both boys. Another blunder we recently learned about.

Much of what we've read recommend you get multiple dogs like you and your wife did, in stages.

We already have them enrolled in classes, but, unfortunately they don't start for a few weeks. I guess we could try and call and talk to the trainer before hand.

[wade moore]

Checking in again real quick.

I think gi and I are on the same page here. Your step #1 is to become leader of the pack. Don't take it as an insult that we think you're not, as like I said there are many small things that will do this. Like I said, I'll make a long rambling post probably later tonight or tomorrow morning.

[gi]

Checking in again real quick.

I think gi and I are on the same page here. Your step #1 is to become leader of the pack. Don't take it as an insult that we think you're not, as like I said there are many small things that will do this. Like I said, I'll make a long rambling post probably later tonight or tomorrow morning.

Nod, agreed.

[TroyF]

My two dogs are about a year apart. Joey is a chocolate lab and has always been the strong one. He's fearless. He loves being around people, but he doesn't NEED you to give him attention full time either. He's comfortable with you just being there.

Max is a black lab. I brought him in about a year later and he's always been frightened by everything. A loud sound sends him ducking for cover. He NEEDS to be close to you at all times. If you aren't giving him attention, he'll give up and lay down on your foot or up against your leg.

Joey is the dominant one. Clear cut, no questions asked. Yet I've never had any problems training them on anything. You can put a double cheeseburger on a small table, walk away for ten minutes and come back and the two dogs will just be sitting there staring. They behave almost flawlessly. (even older dogs will occasionaly be puppies, that's life)

I never read a book or anything like that, but I see no issues with having two dogs.

Now. . . some dogs just have an "I want to be left alone" attitude. There are antisocial dogs. My mother owns one. She's had the thing for four years and I've petted the damned thing one time. I'm not sure there is anything you can do for a dog like this. They are what they are.

[SackAttack]

This is not a parody thread. It seems like we go through phases around here. A few months ago it was buying a house now it's dog questions.

You forgot pregnancy/young children.

It's just the fact that this community has a plethora of young families in the offing, and as such, similar experiences get shared.

I hope we never get to the point where potty training is discussed as liberally as house-buying has been, but hey - it wouldn't surprise me.

[Franklinnoble]

I dunno... wasn't there a thread about poop-eating siblings a week or so ago?

[ice4277]

puppy pix pls thx

[SackAttack]

I dunno... wasn't there a thread about poop-eating siblings a week or so ago?

There was, but wake me up when ten different fathers (or mothers, to be fair to the FOFC ladies) have independent stories about their kids doing the same thing.