PING: NASCAR fans

[miami_fan]

What is the purpose of the Busch series? Every week I hear talk about how the Nextel Cup drivers are taking over the Busch races on ESPN. The impression I am getting is that the Busch series is supposed to be a sort of minor league for the Nextel series and Nextel drivers are taking advantage of "minor league" talent by dominating these races. Needless to say I am not a NASCAR fan just curious as to whether this is a big deal for the sport or if ESPN is making a big deal out of nothing.

[Dutch]

NASCAR does and allows a lot of stupid things. Like the "Lucky Dog" award. WTF is that? If you go a lap down, you go a lap down. You can't just mysteriously get that lap back, unless you are in NASCAR.

[clintl]

It's all money-related. The tracks want some Nextel Cup drivers racing in the Busch Series (when schedules permit) because they believe it attracts more fans to the track.

[PilotMan]

I just read that the drivers were using is as a testing session for the setup of their cars for the real race.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... or if ESPN is making a big deal out of nothing.

Yes and no.

No, because it's not just ESPN complaining about the "Buschwhackers". Pretty much every outlet is doing the same thing, as are the bloggers, etc. Not nearly so much so the average fan as far as I can tell.

Yes, because amidst all the weeping, wailing, moaning, and gnashing of teeth I believe there has been lost some sense of reality & history.

Cup drivers have been running the Busch series for years, although admittedly there's more of them now.

Look back through the Busch Grand National (as the series was once known) points standings.
1982 - BGN champ Jack Ingram was on the back side of his short Cup career, not the front of it. Meanwhile young Dale Jarrett finished 5th and certainly helped move himself to Cup competition a few years later ... but he continued to run 1/3rd to 1/2 of the BGN schedule for the next decade.

1987 - BGN champ was Larry Pearson, who never managed any Cup success, perennial tweener Brett Bodine finished 3rd in the points, and 8th was Mark Martin in the year before he finally got a regular Cup ride ... and then continued to run a regular BGN schedule throughout his Cup career.

When you get to the 90's, there's a better run of success, with 6 of the 8 men who won BGN titles eventually landing in WC rides regularly (although only Bobby LaBonte & Dale Jr. have gone on to be major stars). But there's still no shortage of WC drivers who ran in the Busch series.

Now move into the 2000's and you see young guns like Brian Vickers & Martin Truex, Jr. winning the BGN title and moving into Cup competition as well. But "young" is very much the operative word there, these guys need all the seat time they can get to improve as drivers and any Busch starts they still make helps with that.

But what it really comes down to is business.

There's a good article in this weekend's Delaware News Journal (http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060601/SPORTS06/606010343/1002/SPORTS) which has some interesting facts and quotes.
1) That is probably because Busch Series attendance reached a record 2.7 million last year, TV ratings are up 40 percent this year and sponsorship has boomed.
2) "We're sensitive to trying to make it as good as we can for the old and new car owners," said Robin Pemberton, NASCAR's vice president of competition. "But our obligation is to put the best show on for the fans."
3) The funny thing is that it is not really a new problem. In fact, more than 40 percent of the Busch races run since 1982 have been won by a Cup driver.
4) Jeff Gordon, a four-time Cup Series champion who rarely runs in the Busch Series, said it comes down to more than just extra practice time for the crossover drivers. "They're not doing it just to learn something for Sunday," Gordon said. "They are, but for the most part they're just not getting paid enough on Sunday."

[dervack]

NASCAR does and allows a lot of stupid things. Like the "Lucky Dog" award. WTF is that? If you go a lap down, you go a lap down. You can't just mysteriously get that lap back, unless you are in NASCAR.
Actually, that's a safety rule. In the past, NASCAR used to allow racers to race back to the finish line after a wreck, which sometimes caused more wrecks.

[Dutch]

Actually, that's a safety rule. In the past, NASCAR used to allow racers to race back to the finish line after a wreck, which sometimes caused more wrecks.

Didn't they have the safety rule in place before the 'lucky dog' free lap? Regardless, if the yellow comes out, it should freeze the entire field in place.

Especially that car that risked coming in to the pits under green and then gets hung out to dry by a yellow. That's all part of the risk of auto-racing. And I strongly disagree that any car could possibly run a lap or two less than the other cars and still win.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Didn't they have the safety rule in place before the 'lucky dog' free lap? Regardless, if the yellow comes out, it should freeze the entire field in place.

Especially that car that risked coming in to the pits under green and then gets hung out to dry by a yellow. That's all part of the risk of auto-racing. And I strongly disagree that any car could possibly run a lap or two less than the other cars and still win.

Nope, prior to the lucky dog everyone raced back to the caution. (i.e. back to the start/finish line, they weren't considered "under yellow" until they passed the flag stand).

And actually they don't run a lap or two less than the others, they circle the track (passing the pace car) and rejoin the pack at the tail end of the field. In other words they don't just get +1 added to their laps run, they do physically run the same number of laps as the other cars.

As for freezing the field at caution, that's part of why the free pass was created, to help overcome the negative response by fans (and some drivers) to the frozen field situation.

[EagleFan]

Nope, prior to the lucky dog everyone raced back to the caution. (i.e. back to the start/finish line, they weren't considered "under yellow" until they passed the flag stand).

And actually they don't run a lap or two less than the others, they circle the track (passing the pace car) and rejoin the pack at the tail end of the field. In other words they don't just get +1 added to their laps run, they do physically run the same number of laps as the other cars.

As for freezing the field at caution, that's part of why the free pass was created, to help overcome the negative response by fans (and some drivers) to the frozen field situation.


Yeah, they physically circle the track the same number of times, but it's one less competitive lap that they have to run.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yeah, they physically circle the track the same number of times, but it's one less competitive lap that they have to run.

And guys who are on the tail end of the lead lap but circle around to join the field when they re-start after a caution also run 90-whatever percent less of a competitive lap than everyone else too.

The difference means pfft to me, YMMV.

[hoosierdude]

You know, there are a lot of issues I come up against while creating this monster that emulates NASCAR type racing, and it comes down to what can the fans support vs design.. I hate that BUSCH is being used by the Nextel Cup guys to setup their pockets and cars for the big race, but how do you balance realism vs playability?

Make choices, either you qualify for the minor league (busch/truck) series, or you qualify for the main circuit. Or make it expensive for all but the top owners to do.

What would fans want, complete mirror of NASCAR or would they like some changes to make it a bit more fun to play? :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Make choices, either you qualify for the minor league (busch/truck) series, or you qualify for the main circuit. Or make it expensive for all but the top owners to do.

I don't know if the latter is necessarily exactly right either.

Although the Cup drivers at the top of the current Busch standings are driving for the Roush/Hendrick/Childress teams, there are other Cup regulars who show up driving for less than the big money organizations.

Case in point - while Kevin Harvick is driving for Childress, Tony Stewart's Busch appearances are in a car owned by Kevin Harvick. Michael Waltrip meanwhile drives a Busch entry for a team he owns himself (granted, that's what he'll be doing in Cup next year as well).

Those teams are admittedly a minority, but they do exist, so I don't know if I'd recommend ignoring them in the mix either.

[RendeR]

I'm wondering why thre is so much ire against the nascar "lucky dog" when indy does the same thing, but allows all teh cars 1 lap down to jump ahead prior to a restart?

Example: Middle of the indy 500, Danica patrick and 4 other cars currently 1 lap down were signaled to go ahead as the cars were led into turn 3 by the pace car, they then circled the track and took the green on the lead lap following the restart.

So if indy car allows this, whats the big deal about NASCAR giving the guy who gets himself into position to be the first car 1 lap down his lap back?

Seems like a silly arguement to me.

[EagleFan]

I'm wondering why thre is so much ire against the nascar "lucky dog" when indy does the same thing, but allows all teh cars 1 lap down to jump ahead prior to a restart?

Example: Middle of the indy 500, Danica patrick and 4 other cars currently 1 lap down were signaled to go ahead as the cars were led into turn 3 by the pace car, they then circled the track and took the green on the lead lap following the restart.

So if indy car allows this, whats the big deal about NASCAR giving the guy who gets himself into position to be the first car 1 lap down his lap back?

Seems like a silly arguement to me.


It's a stupid rule for them too. Where are you getting your arguement from, not one person who has questioned the rulw on here is backing the rule being used anywhere else.

[clintl]

I'm wondering why thre is so much ire against the nascar "lucky dog" when indy does the same thing, but allows all teh cars 1 lap down to jump ahead prior to a restart?

Example: Middle of the indy 500, Danica patrick and 4 other cars currently 1 lap down were signaled to go ahead as the cars were led into turn 3 by the pace car, they then circled the track and took the green on the lead lap following the restart.

So if indy car allows this, whats the big deal about NASCAR giving the guy who gets himself into position to be the first car 1 lap down his lap back?

Seems like a silly arguement to me.

I had to step out and missed that incident in the Indy 500, but based on the the races I've seen, I suspect this is what happened. I know Patrick got a lap down because she was making a pit stop when the yellow came out (I saw that - it was right then that I had to leave). So while the yellow was out, I'm guessing the leaders came into the pits, and Patrick and the other cars ended up on the track in front of the new leader after all the pit stops were completed - meaning she was no longer a full lap down, she was on the tail end of the lead lap after the pit stops. I know the IRL doesn't just give everyone a lap back - in fact, as far as I know it doesn't even have a NASCAR-type Lucky Dog rule. I'm guessing, assuming that I have the scenario correct, that the IRL does this because it wants the race leader at the front of the pack on restarts - remember, unlike NASCAR, the IRL only does single-file restarts.

By the way, I saw this exact same scenario that I describe in yesterday's race, too - cars that had been a lap down prior to yellow flag pitstops, and stayed on the track so they were in front of the leader after the pit stops were waved around before the green flag.

[RendeR]

It's a stupid rule for them too. Where are you getting your arguement from, not one person who has questioned the rulw on here is backing the rule being used anywhere else.


I'm not saying anyone is defending it in another series, my point is everyone is bashing NASCAR as if its the only one guilty of such things.


ClintL: That may well be what happened, although the indy incident I mentioned they pulled cars around that were mixed in throughout the field. Danica was the 3rd car a lap down and under yellow she was running about 16th in the line. Not sure what they did or how they organize that.


In the rules defense it is there for safety reasons, in the past drivers would get crazy trying to race back to the yellow flag to get back on the lead lap, this not only caused accidents due to the wreckless attempts but it also got drivers hurt, so, because they don't allow racing to the yellow any longer the teams lobbied that NASCAR removed a VERY strategic part of the race where someone 1 lap down could then race their way back into contention. When they dissallowed that many teams screamed bloody murder, so the "lucky dog" rule was created to help promote stronger racing for the top spot 1 lap down to keep all the cars 1 lap down really competing instead of being speed bumps for the lead pack.

It may seem petty and rediculous to let someone "get a free lap" but having raced their way to that spot on the track I think they've earned that lap. It promotes more competitive racing among those 1 lap down and gives a better overall product to the crowd.

Its better for competition, its better for safety, and its better for entertainment.

I hate the name they gave it, but thats FOX and Darrell Waltrip's fault, not NASCAR's

I cannot WAIT for july and the final END of FOX's pathetic coverage of NASCAR.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I cannot WAIT for july and the final END of FOX's pathetic coverage of NASCAR.

Umm ... I hate to break it to you, but Fox comes back next year (thank God, I find their coverage to be so much better than NBC's that it isn't even funny). NBC is the network that is, thankfully, going away for good after this season.

[clintl]

ClintL: That may well be what happened, although the indy incident I mentioned they pulled cars around that were mixed in throughout the field. Danica was the 3rd car a lap down and under yellow she was running about 16th in the line. Not sure what they did or how they organize that.




OK, that doesn't sound like the scenario I was thinking might have happened. So now my suspicions are that perhaps Danica and at least some of the other cars were in the pits when the yellow came out, but had not yet actually been lapped yet at the precise moment the yellow came out and froze the field, and there's some rule to let them circle around to end of the lead lap in that case.

I wish I had actually seen that part, but truthfully, I just don't know what happened there. I remember when I got back from my errand, I was wondering exactly how Danica got back on the lead lap.

[RendeR]

Umm ... I hate to break it to you, but Fox comes back next year (thank God, I find their coverage to be so much better than NBC's that it isn't even funny). NBC is the network that is, thankfully, going away for good after this season.


UGH.....fucking shit. When I first read something last season FOX wasn't part of the deal =(

FOX's broadcast, while perhaps more energetic than NBC's are total shit. I love Darrell Waltrip, but he's an ignorant hick who needs to learn when to shut the hell up. I like larry and can live with the other guy.

I'm going to have to listen to the Daytona 500 on the radio while turning off the sound on my TV from now on...

I simply despise FOX's utter and complete mishandling of the sport. THe only station that has ever done it real justice and done it without overhyping stupid shit is ESPN, thank GOD they're back on the job.

[Fighter of Foo]

In the rules defense it is there for safety reasons, in the past drivers would get crazy trying to race back to the yellow flag to get back on the lead lap, this not only caused accidents due to the wreckless attempts but it also got drivers hurt, so, because they don't allow racing to the yellow any longer the teams lobbied that NASCAR removed a VERY strategic part of the race where someone 1 lap down could then race their way back into contention. When they dissallowed that many teams screamed bloody murder, so the "lucky dog" rule was created to help promote stronger racing for the top spot 1 lap down to keep all the cars 1 lap down really competing instead of being speed bumps for the lead pack.



The racing back to the line thing got to be quite ridiculous the last year it was in place because there was a gentleman's agreement between certain drivers that if/when a yellow came out, the leader would slow down enough for the few guys behind him to go past and get back on the lead lap. Now if a teammate were behind, the leader would always slow down and let him back on, but if it was a strong car who could potentially come back, they would fight back to the line.

The free pass thing gets ridiculous when you have a series of cautions in a short span like yesterday and something like 3-4 cars get back on the lead lap after a sequence. There really needs to be some provision that you need to be within x distance of the leader and/or x number of laps have passed since the previous caution.

[JonInMiddleGA]

There really needs to be some provision that you need to be within x distance of the leader and/or x number of laps have passed since the previous caution.

Except that there was no such provision before the frozen field rule went into place. If somebody could get their lap back, they got it back, if they couldn't then they didn't. And that's what the Lucky Dog is trying to re-create, the possibility that someone gets their lap back.

From a pure viewing standpoint, I'd rather they eliminate the Lucky Dog and stop freezing the field. I hate the latter, but tolerate it due to the safety concerns. I'd be less tolerant of it however if they didn't have something in place like the Lucky Dog rule. In other words, it appears to be working about they way it was intended to work, as a way to placate both fans & drivers who disliked the frozen field rule in the first place.