Stern dismayed by NBA player development system

[miami_fan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2477110
DALLAS -- Commissioner David Stern is appalled by the state of the game.

Not the NBA game, mind you, but the game as it is played by a significant percentage of young Americans who aspire to make it into Stern's league.

"There is something totally wrong with the development system for young basketball players," Stern said Friday at his annual NBA Finals news conference. "It historically has not been the place for professional leagues to do [something about] it, but on the basis of the consistent failures of everyone else to do it, we are at least thinking about it, and we'll be getting some dialogue with some interested parties to see if there's something that can be done here."

The subject came up at a Finals in which the Dallas Mavericks have become the first NBA team since the Houston Rockets a decade ago to be led into the championship round by a foreign-born player.

International players are flooding the league and now make up almost 20 percent of the NBA's player population, and scouts are increasingly turning to Europe and South America to find young players who have been developed with a focus on fundamentals rather than flash.

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich summed it up recently by noting how his team usually has a choice on draft night between picking an American player who has been coddled by sneaker companies throughout his teenage years and a foreign player who has spent six or more years playing for his country's national program. And as we've seen with San Antonio's recent drafting patterns, the Spurs have been making the latter choice nearly every time.

NBA officials first broached the subject with other interested parties last winter at a meeting in Chicago that included: officials from Nike; current and former college coaches Mike Krzyzewski, Dean Smith and George Raveling; NCAA president Myles Brand; and representatives from AAU programs. A follow-up meeting was held recently, but no consensus has emerged as to how to address a problem that has been festering over the past two decades.

Twenty years ago, players typically honed their basketball and life management skills in college, then came into the NBA in their early 20s. Nowadays, however, the best American players are often identified before they even reach high school, and sneaker companies and AAU coaches often have a greater influence on those players than their high school coaches and hometown mentors. The end result has been a generation of players entering the league with enormous skills and potential -- but with a lack of comprehension of many of the intricacies of the game that are so important at the highest level.

"The roster of NBA teams is going to be enriched by huge numbers of international players, and it's going to happen," Stern said. "But I also believe that the production of American players and their development is going to go through a renaissance. If we have to fuel it ourselves, OK. Maybe we're viewing it as our obligation to become involved in something we never wanted to touch because it was both unpleasant and possibly deleterious to their academic health, but we're talking about it internally."

Incoming deputy commissioner Adam Silver expounded on Stern's statements in an interview with ESPN.com.

"As David said, from a college and NBA standpoint, it's often too late -- by the time the rules allow us to first engage the players -- to do anything in terms of skills and personal development," Silver said. "There's a morass of rules, some Byzantine, that we're just beginning to understand. We've never done that kind of a thorough investigation into the layered rules and don't yet have an understanding of what we could do, or what others could do.

"We're not as concerned that we get involved, as long as there's a system that produces American players that can compete at the highest levels by the time they're of NBA age. That's what our concern is," Silver said. "We just don't want to bury our heads in the sand and pretend [that] somehow players will arrive miraculously as fully developed adults when there's a screwed-up system all along the way."


Uh David, the game has actually been BETTER this year than it has been over the last ten years. Where were you ten years ago? I agree with him on some of the things, I disagree with him on others. Here is a thought. Tell the GMs in the NBA to pick players who are fundamentally sound instead of picking the most talented players who are not fundamentally sound. If the NBA did not pick the most talented players 95 percent of the time, then the kids would learn that they need to learn the fundamentals.

[Mustang]

Fundamentals is a nice word

Flash sells

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[sabotai]

My first thought when I read the thread title was "Why does Howard Stern care?"

[astralhaze]

I think its bollocks. The NBA is at a level that is just as good, and better in many ways, than the "glory days" of the 1980s.

[Franklinnoble]

My first thought was, "What's his problem with the NCAA?"

[clintl]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2477110

"There is something totally wrong with the development system for young basketball players," Stern said Friday at his annual NBA Finals news conference. "It historically has not been the place for professional leagues to do [something about] it, but on the basis of the consistent failures of everyone else to do it, we are at least thinking about it, and we'll be getting some dialogue with some interested parties to see if there's something that can be done here."



If you're not paying for it, you can't expect to get exactly what you want out of it.

[aran]

I'd much rather see good team basketball played by reasonably modest and quiet internationals than a me-fest, individualistic ego jerk-around by a bunch of flashy, "talented", stuck-up American hooligans.

I don't watch the NBA enough to really know much or care much about this situation, though.

[Crapshoot]

I'd much rather see good team basketball played by reasonably modest and quiet internationals than a me-fest, individualistic ego jerk-around by a bunch of flashy, "talented", stuck-up American hooligans.

I don't watch the NBA enough to really know much or care much about this situation, though.

In other words, I don't know shit about what I'm talking about, but I keep hearing about those horrible young black men and their egos and how its ruining basketball, so I'll go ahead and comment.

[astralhaze]

I'd much rather see good team basketball played by reasonably modest and quiet internationals than a me-fest, individualistic ego jerk-around by a bunch of flashy, "talented", stuck-up American hooligans.

I don't watch the NBA enough to really know much or care much about this situation, though.

:D You trash the NBA players and then admit you don't know very much about the it. That's pretty funny.

[IMetTrentGreen]

Uh David, the game has actually been BETTER this year than it has been over the last ten years.

so did you just gloss over the part about the growing foreign presence?

[astralhaze]

so did you just gloss over the part about the growing foreign presence?

The Pistons, who along with the Spurs are pretty much the poster children for fundamental basketball have no foreign players in their rotation. The article mentioned how the Spurs go after the foreign players because they are more well versed in the fundamentals and mentioned Tony Parker and Manu as examples of this. That's total garbage. Both Parker and Manu had to be reigned in by Pop and taught to play the fundamental team game rather than trying to do it all by themselves. To me, the only problem the NBA has had in the past decade or so was the ugly, physical style of basketball that Pat Riley introduced and gave us boring wrestling matches. That has been solved and the NBA is more fun to watch than at least since the Magic and Bird days (I actually enjoy the game more now although that is blasphemy in some circles:))

[Passacaglia]

so did you just gloss over the part about the growing foreign presence?

"And I'll be damned if we let any more of dem furriners in our league!

[Young Drachma]

It's Stern who pushed the foreign game and he probably wants the NCAA to turn into the same way college football serves as a proxy minor league for football, but it's not going to happen and it shouldn't.

It's not our fault that he's ignored the minors forever and when he finally creates a minor league, its not anything worth watching anymore than the real league for the most part.

[Warhammer]

The Pistons, who along with the Spurs are pretty much the poster children for fundamental basketball have no foreign players in their rotation. The article mentioned how the Spurs go after the foreign players because they are more well versed in the fundamentals and mentioned Tony Parker and Manu as examples of this. That's total garbage. Both Parker and Manu had to be reigned in by Pop and taught to play the fundamental team game rather than trying to do it all by themselves. To me, the only problem the NBA has had in the past decade or so was the ugly, physical style of basketball that Pat Riley introduced and gave us boring wrestling matches. That has been solved and the NBA is more fun to watch than at least since the Magic and Bird days (I actually enjoy the game more now although that is blasphemy in some circles:))

You do make some sense, but I disagree how you put everything together.

What needs to happen first is that the refs call the game according to the rules. More than any other sport, refs throw out the rulebook when it comes to stars. I hear commentators repeat ad infinitum, "How can you call a foul on him now?"

Second, due to the way the game is marketed, teams have to find stars. Look at the NBA advertising. It is all about the players, not about the teams. Think back to the 80s, part of it was Bird vs. Magic, but the greater attraction was the Lakers against the Celtics. Put the focus on teams, and I think you will see fewer peaks and valleys in interest. You will also put more interest in how teams perform rather than players that pour in 50 points a game but lose.

Third, watch an NBA game from the 80s. Why did teams score more points? First, the pace was much faster than today. Teams got out in transition. Why was this year's playoffs watched more than in recent history? Because the teams got out in transition, especially in the Western Conference. The Lakers of the 80s were always ranked in the middle of the pack as far as defense went, but their offense was always towards the top? Why? Easy, they're defense was superb. They would force a turnover, or they woudl get a rebound and immediately run. Look at today's big men. How many can hit a man heading up court? Not many.

Fourth, the lack of fundamentals has killed the flow of the game. Which players are the ones that excel at the NBA level? Those that have relatively complete games. Yet, watch some games, players can either dunk or they can shoot the 3. You don't see many players with a solid 15' jumper. You don't see a lot of big men that can post up, and put the ball off the glass going to their left or right, they always go towards the basket, into the defense. Sometimes you want to drive, but there is a place for the turnaround jumpers on the blocks. Heck, Jabbar didn't become the all-time leading scorer by driving to the hoop. He invented the Sky-Hook. How many times did he miss a shot he needed with that?

[astralhaze]

1. The star system has always existed even back to the Magic and Bird days.
2. Yeah, I agree and you can blame that on Michael Jordan. However, while its the stars who get the marketing, it is still the best team that wins the games. The Pistons, Spurs and Mavs all play excellent team games. Those are (assuming the Mavs win) the last three champions.
3. And the fast pace is back. The Spurs lost to the Mavs because the Mavericks could simply outrun them. That's the same reason that they are going to beat the Heat (that and their far superior depth). As for the big men who could hit the outlet guy on the break, I'm not so sure that's true. You're actually seeing a whole gaggle of big men who can handle and pass
the ball which I attribute to a couple factors: the Magic effect that made it hip for big men to be able to play on the perimeter and the evolution of the game to the method of a big man posting on the block, getting double teamed and then hitting the open man. Also, while you don't see many players with the post moves of a Kevin McHale, you still have Tim Duncan and KG and Shaq, etc.

As for the 15 foot jumper, blame the three point line and blame better defense. It's not that players can't shoot anymore, its just that it is not as smart a shot and it is defended far better. It's still around of course, as Rip Hamilton and Dirk Nowitzki demonstrate.

Anyway, the NBA is frickin' awesome to watch right now and its sad that people seem to just have it burned in their brains that its no good for reasons that seem to ellude me. I think its part nostalgia and part...well, I don't want to get in to the other part because it's highly controversial. Let's just say that I think there is a reason Steve Nash has won two MVP's he didn't deserve.

[DaddyTorgo]

1. The star system has always existed even back to the Magic and Bird days.
2. Yeah, I agree and you can blame that on Michael Jordan. However, while its the stars who get the marketing, it is still the best team that wins the games. The Pistons, Spurs and Mavs all play excellent team games. Those are (assuming the Mavs win) the last three champions.
3. And the fast pace is back. The Spurs lost to the Mavs because the Mavericks could simply outrun them. That's the same reason that they are going to beat the Heat (that and their far superior depth). As for the big men who could hit the outlet guy on the break, I'm not so sure that's true. You're actually seeing a whole gaggle of big men who can handle and pass
the ball which I attribute to a couple factors: the Magic effect that made it hip for big men to be able to play on the perimeter and the evolution of the game to the method of a big man posting on the block, getting double teamed and then hitting the open man. Also, while you don't see many players with the post moves of a Kevin McHale, you still have Tim Duncan and KG and Shaq, etc.

As for the 15 foot jumper, blame the three point line and blame better defense. It's not that players can't shoot anymore, its just that it is not as smart a shot and it is defended far better. It's still around of course, as Rip Hamilton and Dirk Nowitzki demonstrate.

Anyway, the NBA is frickin' awesome to watch right now and its sad that people seem to just have it burned in their brains that its no good for reasons that seem to ellude me. I think its part nostalgia and part...well, I don't want to get in to the other part because it's highly controversial. Let's just say that I think there is a reason Steve Nash has won two MVP's he didn't deserve.

so you think white people don't watch the NBA because it's full of black players??

yesss...let's whip out the race card. please. that's the biggest load of shit. the fact of the matter is that Stern made a conscious decision to market his league in a particular way to a particular demographic. and doing so has alienated many casual fans (who happen to be white yes). but that in no way means that whites aren't watching because it's black players. rather whites aren't watching because the league is no longer being marketed towards them.

[astralhaze]

so you think white people don't watch the NBA because it's full of black players??

yesss...let's whip out the race card. please. that's the biggest load of shit. the fact of the matter is that Stern made a conscious decision to market his league in a particular way to a particular demographic. and doing so has alienated many casual fans (who happen to be white yes). but that in no way means that whites aren't watching because it's black players. rather whites aren't watching because the league is no longer being marketed towards them.

It's not because they are racists...this is why I didn't want to get in to this but I better explain myself. I think most white middle to upper class people don't like/are afraid of/whatever the hip-hop culture. That's why you see people refer to NBA players as thugs or gangsters or whatever even though a guy like say Rip Hamilton is actually a salt-of-the-Earth type even though he wears cornrows and such. It's not race, per se, Jason Williams is despised by a lot of people and called a thug for the same reason. It's just that a lot of people are turned off by the culture. Steve Nash, on the other hand, looks like he could be a guy you went to High School with.

[DaddyTorgo]

It's not because they are racists...this is why I didn't want to get in to this but I better explain myself. I think most white middle to upper class people don't like/are afraid of/whatever the hip-hop culture. That's why you see people refer to NBA players as thugs or gangsters or whatever even though a guy like say Rip Hamilton is actually a salt-of-the-Earth type even though he wears cornrows and such. It's not race, per se, Jason Williams is despised by a lot of people and called a thug for the same reason. It's just that a lot of people are turned off by the culture. Steve Nash, on the other hand, looks like he could be a guy you went to High School with.

okay. so basically you agree with me. it's because the marketing of the NBA and the image that it has chosen to embrace is less "professional" and more "urban" (arbitrary terms). which was a conscious decision by Stern and the league at several points, one which they are starting to try to turn around with requiring players to wear suits, etc, but which they still have a long way to go with (as evidenced by players with close ties to criminals/players who are criminals, etc.).

[astralhaze]

okay. so basically you agree with me. it's because the marketing of the NBA and the image that it has chosen to embrace is less "professional" and more "urban" (arbitrary terms). which was a conscious decision by Stern and the league at several points, one which they are starting to try to turn around with requiring players to wear suits, etc, but which they still have a long way to go with (as evidenced by players with close ties to criminals/players who are criminals, etc.).

Yeah, I agree. However, it's a hard problem to solve because most black NBA players are products of that culture and they like to get tattoos and wear cornrows and stuff like that. Myself personally, I couldn't give two shits if Shawn Livingston has cornrows. He's a joy to watch. But some people do and I don't think you can do much about that.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah, I agree. However, it's a hard problem to solve because most black NBA players are products of that culture and they like to get tattoos and wear cornrows and stuff like that. Myself personally, I couldn't give two shits if Shawn Livingston has cornrows. He's a joy to watch. But some people do and I don't think you can do much about that.

you're right it's a tough problem to solve. because the culture bleeds so much into the game. and i'm not sure that there is a solution, or that if there is one that it will be viable. i think Stern's attempting to push the foreigners into the league is certainly one attempt they're making though, to dilute the "urban rap culture" that has pervaded the game and to try to make it appeal to white america more as a game than as a whole culture they have to embrace to be "in the know" about the game.

[aran]

In other words, I don't know shit about what I'm talking about, but I keep hearing about those horrible young black men and their egos and how its ruining basketball, so I'll go ahead and comment.

I know a bit about the game of basketball, and I've seen the US get trounced in international play. I don't watch the NBA much, though.

[Warhammer]

1. The star system has always existed even back to the Magic and Bird days.
2. Yeah, I agree and you can blame that on Michael Jordan. However, while its the stars who get the marketing, it is still the best team that wins the games. The Pistons, Spurs and Mavs all play excellent team games. Those are (assuming the Mavs win) the last three champions.
3. And the fast pace is back. The Spurs lost to the Mavs because the Mavericks could simply outrun them. That's the same reason that they are going to beat the Heat (that and their far superior depth). As for the big men who could hit the outlet guy on the break, I'm not so sure that's true. You're actually seeing a whole gaggle of big men who can handle and pass
the ball which I attribute to a couple factors: the Magic effect that made it hip for big men to be able to play on the perimeter and the evolution of the game to the method of a big man posting on the block, getting double teamed and then hitting the open man. Also, while you don't see many players with the post moves of a Kevin McHale, you still have Tim Duncan and KG and Shaq, etc.

As for the 15 foot jumper, blame the three point line and blame better defense. It's not that players can't shoot anymore, its just that it is not as smart a shot and it is defended far better. It's still around of course, as Rip Hamilton and Dirk Nowitzki demonstrate.

Anyway, the NBA is frickin' awesome to watch right now and its sad that people seem to just have it burned in their brains that its no good for reasons that seem to ellude me. I think its part nostalgia and part...well, I don't want to get in to the other part because it's highly controversial. Let's just say that I think there is a reason Steve Nash has won two MVP's he didn't deserve.

The star system existed back in the Bird and Magic days, but what took that to the next level was that one played for the Celtics and the other played for the Lakers. You never had a Erving vs. Magic rivalry like you did a Erving vs. Bird. Much of it had to do with the teams involved. Granted, Magic, Bird, and Jordan changed that, but up until Jordan made it big in 90, it was more about teams than star players.

And before people start talking about how Jordan was a star in the late 80s, he was looked at as a star player, but one who couldn't win the big game. Sure, he scored 63 against the Celts in the Garden in the playoffs, but who won?

The fast break is back with only a handful of teams. Most of which are in the Western Conference, that is not to say that teams are not running the break, but it is relative compared to the last 5-10 years.

Defense is no better now than it used to be. The difference is the refs. Go back to the first Lakers - Pistons final and watch the end of Game 6, do you think that foul would be called today? Hell no. Was it a foul? Yes. That foul caused the Lakers to win the game and send it to game 7, which they won. Plus, I've seen tons and tons of wide open mid-range jumpers. Not many people in the game have one. The superstars do (which I never disputed, I should have been more clear in my first post), but watch old NBA games, nearly every player could nail a wide open mid range jumper.

Until teans start scorings the 110s regularly, due to good defense, leading to steals and transition, I am going to stay away unless there is a good matchup. There is not a lot that appeals to me in the NBA game as it stands now. If more teams play like Pheonix and Dallas, I'll probably start watching more, but until then, I guess I always have gold on the weekends.

[TroyF]

I agree with about everything Warhammer has said in this thread.

Part of the problem with the NBA is Stern himself. He allowed thug ball to become a part of the league. Watch a game on Classic sports and tell me how many times a guy coming off a screen had to deal with a forearm in his chest.

Fouls were fouls. The game was about movement.

The game went downhill in the 90's. What is saving it? The guys who play basketball like the game was played in the 80's. It's not only Euros. Stern overlooks the three most important things to happen to the NBA in a decade: Lebron James, Dwayne Wade and Carmelo Anthony.

All young American players, all who have blossomed under the age of 25. (and in the case of James and Melo, under the age of 21)

Stern wants to restore the game? Simple. Keep calling the rules the way they started to this year. Have the refs stop managing the games. (NO MORE Mavs vs. Spurs game 7, where the refs did everything they could to allow the Spurs to win that game) Make the game less about bodybuilding and more about footwork again. Stop allowing defensive players to shove people around and stop allowing offensive players to throw people into the fifth row if they are someone you've labeled "superstar"

[miami_fan]

Since somehow the conversation has gone from player development to marketing I will address that first. I am no marketing expert but the marketing thing seems like a hollow excuse to not watch the NBA. Neither FIFA nor Major League Baseball market their game to people in my demographic but I watch baseball games and soccer matches. The NBA in the last few years has placed a larger emphasis on marketing the game's international stars. Yao, Dirk, Tony Parker, Manu are just a few examples of this. Now I constanly see discussions about the NBA not marketing to White American culture (whatever the hell that means) and to Black American culture (whatever the hell that means). I am going to be very curious to see what the reaction will be if/when it is marketed (to a certain extent) to a non-American culture in the future.

Now back on the court. As I said before, I do agree with a lot of what Stern had to say. Too many players coming through the traditional American basketball development channels(high schools, AAU, colleges) are lacking in basketball skills and/or basketball IQ. Note I did not say basketball talent. I believe there are certain skills and a certain amount of basketball knowledge that players should come into the NBA with. The same can be said for kids entering college. The foreign players are coming in with a higher level of both IMO.

[Chubby]

It's not because they are racists...this is why I didn't want to get in to this but I better explain myself. I think most white middle to upper class people don't like/are afraid of/whatever the hip-hop culture. That's why you see people refer to NBA players as thugs or gangsters or whatever even though a guy like say Rip Hamilton is actually a salt-of-the-Earth type even though he wears cornrows and such. It's not race, per se, Jason Williams is despised by a lot of people and called a thug for the same reason. It's just that a lot of people are turned off by the culture. Steve Nash, on the other hand, looks like he could be a guy you went to High School with.

What a crock of shit. Have you ever been to a rap concert? No white suburbanites there :rolleyes:

The NBA is not marketed to those casual fans that were picked up in the 80's, it's a different group of casual fans they are going after since they are thinking (wrongly) that the group they got in the 80's would stay with them.

This "white people don't like hip hop culture" is laughable.

[Deattribution]

What a crock of shit. Have you ever been to a rap concert? No white suburbanites there :rolleyes:

The NBA is not marketed to those casual fans that were picked up in the 80's, it's a different group of casual fans they are going after since they are thinking (wrongly) that the group they got in the 80's would stay with them.

This "white people don't like hip hop culture" is laughable.

But it is still a smaller crowd, most rap albums sell 3-4 million copies tops, and that's considered pretty successful. Where as, even though it's less now, most other more cultured music sells 8-10 million, and use to sell tens of millions.

Infact, two of your biggest selling rap artist are white - Vanilla Ice and Eminem. Ice obviously didn't have longitivity, but still his album was one of the biggest selling rap albums ever. Eminem on the other hand, everything he has released has sold about 10 million or more.

[Warhammer]

Since somehow the conversation has gone from player development to marketing I will address that first.

SNIP

Now back on the court. As I said before, I do agree with a lot of what Stern had to say. Too many players coming through the traditional American basketball development channels(high schools, AAU, colleges) are lacking in basketball skills and/or basketball IQ. Note I did not say basketball talent. I believe there are certain skills and a certain amount of basketball knowledge that players should come into the NBA with. The same can be said for kids entering college. The foreign players are coming in with a higher level of both IMO.

The problem with the whole system in the NBA though is that the marketing is tied to the star players. Let's face the reality of sports, the big stars make more money from endorsements than they do from playing (note: this isn't across the board, so don't bring up Ben Wallace making most of his money from playing).

In the NBA, you are a star by scoring 30+ PPG. It doesn't matter if you are a winner or a loser. Look at AI, people think the guy is great, but how many championships has he won? How many times has he advanced in the playoffs? Does he have heart? Yes, but is he a winner? I don't think so.

When was Kobe a bigger star? When he was averaging 22 PPG, or when he was averaging 30 PPG? I would argue he was better back when the Lakers were winning titles and he was playing team ball.

What did Jordan win by himself? It wasn't until Pippen and Grant developed that he won championships and became a mega-star.

The shoe companies then try to get to the next great player by investing in them at the AAU and high school level. What does this mean for player development? They push the "stars" to go off for 60 PPG, since that is what determines their future opportunities. How many colleges get fired up because their new recruit averaged 30 RPG? How about 20 APG?

When did this switch take place? It started in the mid 80s and early 90s. Why? Because basketball was at an all-time high. However, due to Riley ball and the Knicks of the early 90s, the game was slowed down by all the clutching, grabbing, and fouls. Why were there more fouls? Easy, because no one wanted to call all the fouls (since there were literally fouls on every play), the game slowed down and became a half-court game. Since Jordan was the best player at this time and could breakdown anyone off the dribble, other teams tried to duplicate this. The result was the isolation basketball of the mid-late 90s. This fed into the star marketing system, as well as the advertisers dreams. The problem was they were killing the golden cow.

Why is the NBA seeing a resurgence now? Because many of those fans that tuned out the league after the mid-80s heyday are now coming back cautiously because the game is getting back to what it was. Going back to what a previous poster mentioned, people didn't leave because of the thug mentality, but they didn't stick with the league because of it. As the quality of league play went down, the thug mentality alienated fans. They might have stuck around if there was a team oriented sentiment, and an attitude more palatable to "White America." But, the attitude of the players was just the nail in the coffin.

Regarding "White America" not embracing hip hop, it is true, by and large. However, the youth of "White America" do enjoy hip hop to an extent as a form of rebelling against their parents. Its been happening since Sinatra. However, the majority of "White America" does not embrace hip hop.

[gstelmack]

Make the game less about bodybuilding and more about footwork again.

Yup. "Strength" should be one of the least important attributes to a basketball player, not one of the most. I gave up watching pro basketball when Shaq started butt-checking guys back to the basket so he could lay it in.

[miami_fan]

SNIP



The problem with the whole system in the NBA though is that the marketing is tied to the star players. Let's face the reality of sports, the big stars make more money from endorsements than they do from playing (note: this isn't across the board, so don't bring up Ben Wallace making most of his money from playing).

In the NBA, you are a star by scoring 30+ PPG. It doesn't matter if you are a winner or a loser. Look at AI, people think the guy is great, but how many championships has he won? How many times has he advanced in the playoffs? Does he have heart? Yes, but is he a winner? I don't think so.

When was Kobe a bigger star? When he was averaging 22 PPG, or when he was averaging 30 PPG? I would argue he was better back when the Lakers were winning titles and he was playing team ball.

What did Jordan win by himself? It wasn't until Pippen and Grant developed that he won championships and became a mega-star.

The shoe companies then try to get to the next great player by investing in them at the AAU and high school level. What does this mean for player development? They push the "stars" to go off for 60 PPG, since that is what determines their future opportunities. How many colleges get fired up because their new recruit averaged 30 RPG? How about 20 APG?

When did this switch take place? It started in the mid 80s and early 90s. Why? Because basketball was at an all-time high. However, due to Riley ball and the Knicks of the early 90s, the game was slowed down by all the clutching, grabbing, and fouls. Why were there more fouls? Easy, because no one wanted to call all the fouls (since there were literally fouls on every play), the game slowed down and became a half-court game. Since Jordan was the best player at this time and could breakdown anyone off the dribble, other teams tried to duplicate this. The result was the isolation basketball of the mid-late 90s. This fed into the star marketing system, as well as the advertisers dreams. The problem was they were killing the golden cow.

Why is the NBA seeing a resurgence now? Because many of those fans that tuned out the league after the mid-80s heyday are now coming back cautiously because the game is getting back to what it was. Going back to what a previous poster mentioned, people didn't leave because of the thug mentality, but they didn't stick with the league because of it. As the quality of league play went down, the thug mentality alienated fans. They might have stuck around if there was a team oriented sentiment, and an attitude more palatable to "White America." But, the attitude of the players was just the nail in the coffin.

Regarding "White America" not embracing hip hop, it is true, by and large. However, the youth of "White America" do enjoy hip hop to an extent as a form of rebelling against their parents. Its been happening since Sinatra. However, the majority of "White America" does not embrace hip hop.

So do you agree or disagree that there is a problem with the player development system? Everything that you have discussed as far as player development is concerned seems to give credence to what Stern and Popovich are saying.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Yup. "Strength" should be one of the least important attributes to a basketball player, not one of the most. I gave up watching pro basketball when Shaq started butt-checking guys back to the basket so he could lay it in.
For the record, Shaq did that shit in college, too, and he wasn't even that big then. I used to be a huge LSU fan, and I kinda got turned off Tigers basketball for a while because of that.

[Glengoyne]

Yup. "Strength" should be one of the least important attributes to a basketball player, not one of the most. I gave up watching pro basketball when Shaq started butt-checking guys back to the basket so he could lay it in.
Hey but what about all those guys that hang on Shaq, and don't get called for itm just because he is so big?

I'll note that while I said that, I don't buy it for a second. I'm just parroting all of the blind Laker fans I used to talk with.

I'm completely in your camp on this item. I will give Shaq some credit, that along the way he did develop a few moves. I remember seeing him in person his rookie year, and saying that he wouldn't be near as good if the referees called him for lowering his shoulder and displacing defenders.

I also see what Stern is talking about with the younger players leaning toward "flash" over more fundamental skills. I think the blase performance of the US in more recent international competition is testimony to that fact.

[Warhammer]

So do you agree or disagree that there is a problem with the player development system? Everything that you have discussed as far as player development is concerned seems to give credence to what Stern and Popovich are saying.

I agree that there is a problem, but I split the blame between Stern and the shoe companies. Stern because of the star marketing, and the shoe companies because of the corruption of the player development. The shoe companies need to be taken out of the picture, but they are only in it because of how Stern built the NBA's marketing focus.

[stevew]

I also see what Stern is talking about with the younger players leaning toward "flash" over more fundamental skills. I think the blase performance of the US in more recent international competition is testimony to that fact.

Or it could just be that Larry Brown is a poor international rules coach, and that Stephon Marbury is a basketball abortion.

[Glengoyne]

Or it could just be that Larry Brown is a poor international rules coach, and that Stephon Marbury is a basketball abortion.

Larry Brown has coached the last two or three International teams?

[astralhaze]

Lot's of arguments I don't agree with in this thread. Anyway, I like the NBA and think it is at as high a level as it has ever been, including the 1980's. Continue...

[astralhaze]

What a crock of shit. Have you ever been to a rap concert? No white suburbanites there :rolleyes:

The NBA is not marketed to those casual fans that were picked up in the 80's, it's a different group of casual fans they are going after since they are thinking (wrongly) that the group they got in the 80's would stay with them.

This "white people don't like hip hop culture" is laughable.

And how many of the white people at those rap concerts are in the NBA's demographic which is 28-58 and making upper-middle class and higher incomes? My guess: none.

[Chubby]

And how many of the white people at those rap concerts are in the NBA's demographic which is 28-58 and making upper-middle class and higher incomes? My guess: none.

The argument was made that "white people don't understand/like hip hop culture" which is a complete load of crap... and still is.

[astralhaze]

The argument was made that "white people don't understand/like hip hop culture" which is a complete load of crap... and still is.

I said middle to upper class white people. I should probably have said upper middle to upper class white people, but I think my point is still correct.

[Chubby]

I said middle to upper class white people. I should probably have said upper middle to upper class white people, but I think my point is still correct.

So your argument is "rich white snobs don't like hip hop"? I'm not really sure where you're going with this...

[astralhaze]

So your argument is "rich white snobs don't like hip hop"? I'm not really sure where you're going with this...

Yes, affluent white Americans do not like hip-hop culture. The modern NBA is highly influenced by hip-hop culture. Therefore, affluent white Americans have been turned off by the NBA. I've been pretty clear about it, I think.

[Chubby]

Yes, affluent white Americans do not like hip-hop culture. The modern NBA is highly influenced by hip-hop culture. Therefore, affluent white Americans have been turned off by the NBA. I've been pretty clear about it, I think.

Yet many people here (myself included) are turned off by the current NBA, I don't get the impression we'd be classified as upper-middle to upper class either. Your jump to the race card is weak.

[Noop]

Haze dont agrue with that guy. It is a waste of time.

[stevew]

lol

[cuervo72]

Just want it known...I'm upper-middle class (ok, maybe lower-upper-middle class), over 28 but under 52, and white. I don't get hip-hop culture and don't watch much NBA. I am a sterotype!!!!$$@@@@@!111omgwtf