New Construction vs. Intensive Renovation

[wade moore]

Looking for maybe some folks that can shed some opinions/experiences on a decision that my fiance and I are mulling over.

Some of you may have seen me mention before that I bought a house about two years ago. The problem is, the house is 75 years old. It also had a bad owner for the 10 years before I moved in. So the problems we have are numerous from every room having massively patched drywall, to a bathroom that basically needs to be completely replaced, to hardwood that is in bad shape, to pipes that I feel may be leaky/have issues, to just some bad architectural decisions. Plus, it's a little smaller than we want for a long-term house.

However. We LOVE our location. We have 1/2 an acre, we love our neighbors, it's in a good spot in town, just for the land if there was no house on it we got a relatively decent price, etc. My Mortgage is for about $125k.

So. We are strongly considering two options.

A) Demolish the house and have a modular home built. I have done a lot of investigation into modular homes, so don't try and talk me into a stick-built home over modular, I'm sold on modular ;). We could get basically everything we wanted for around $200k, but that does not include demolition. I have NO idea what that costs.

B) MASSIVE renovation. What I mean by this is basically having the house completely gutted, having the pipes replaced, maybe having the hot water heater moved (it's in the attic which I hate), brand new drywall, new floors, new siding, new windows, etc. In addition, adding probably around 500 or so square feet. I have NO idea what this would cost and honestly have no idea where to begin to find out.

So, if anyone has any input on their experiences/knowledge on pro's/cons of each that would be awesome. In addition if anyone has a semblence of cost on B or where I should go to try and discover the cost.

[Flasch186]

demolition can be relativly inexpensive if you dont care where the debris from the explosion lands. I saw an episode of Extreme home makeover where a leaking gas pipe in the basement did the job in about 1 day.

[cartman]

Some friends of mine in San Jose are currently undergoing Option A. They chose a Palm Harbor home, if memory serves me right. From their experience, I'd make sure you know the zoning laws inside and out. When they bought their house, they were in an unincorporated part of Santa Clara County, and not inside San Jose city limits. When they started to research their options, they found out that since they were in an unincorporated part of the county, and more than 500 feet from the San Jose border, they were exempt from Extra-territorial Jurisdiction, and only had to adhere to county codes. So they did all of their planning based on this info.

Fast forward a couple of months, and when they were about to start demolition and get the new utilities to the lot, they found out their application was denied. It turned out that a neighbor down the street had done a remodeling job that invoked the ETJ rule, and the neighbor's house was annexed by the City of San Jose. The neighbor's house was 485 feet away, thus putting my friend's lot into the annextion clause as well. This threw a massive wrench into their plans.

It took them 9 more months to sort through all of the new laws, regulations, and such. Their house was finally demolished back in February.
Now, a whole new level of fun started for them.

This spring was a MUCH wetter than normal one, so the normally dry California weather was not cooperating, and contractors who scheduled jobs based on having their normal days available got way behind on work. So much so, that is was only two weeks ago the new foundation was poured. Their house has been ready to ship since April, but the foundation won't be cured enough for another couple of week to accept delivery. They are now hoping to be able to move in to the new place at the beginning of August. This was after the initial paperwork was filed in March of last year!

[flere-imsaho]

A lot of people in my area are doing the demolish-then-rebuild option. Ten years ago the neighborhood was pretty much all 1/2-bedroom ranches. What folks are doing is either buying the 1/2-bedroom house, demolishing it, and then building a 3/4-bedroom house, or buying the smaller house, living there for a few years, and then demolishing it and building anew.

We'll probably be in the same position in the next few years. Ours is, yes, a 2-bedroom ranch, and for our current purposes, it's terrific. However, if we decide to have more than one kid, it'll get real small, real quick. Although we love the neighborhood, our decision will probably come down to a financial one with three options: demolish/rebuild, renovate/extend or just move. The previous owners had a 2nd kid on the way when they sold to us and took the 3rd option.

For the kind of full rehab you're talking about, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the cost ended up getting close to the demolish/rebuild option. You're talking about a lot of work for this particular rehab. Costs will vary around the country, though, so if I were in your situation I'd ask friends/acquaintances to see if anyone knew a decent builder, and then get said builder to do you an estimate. At least then you'd have a ballpark idea of what you're talking about.

Personally, if faced with your options, I'd probably go demolish/rebuild unless it cost far, far less to rehab. The problem I've seen, time and time again, with full rehabs is that despite the best inspection in the world, you don't really know what you're going to run into when you start stripping everything back to the studs. All you need to do is have a couple of unanticipated situations and your project budget and timeline balloon out of control.

[wade moore]

A lot of people in my area are doing the demolish-then-rebuild option. Ten years ago the neighborhood was pretty much all 1/2-bedroom ranches. What folks are doing is either buying the 1/2-bedroom house, demolishing it, and then building a 3/4-bedroom house, or buying the smaller house, living there for a few years, and then demolishing it and building anew.

We'll probably be in the same position in the next few years. Ours is, yes, a 2-bedroom ranch, and for our current purposes, it's terrific. However, if we decide to have more than one kid, it'll get real small, real quick. Although we love the neighborhood, our decision will probably come down to a financial one with three options: demolish/rebuild, renovate/extend or just move. The previous owners had a 2nd kid on the way when they sold to us and took the 3rd option.

For the kind of full rehab you're talking about, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the cost ended up getting close to the demolish/rebuild option. You're talking about a lot of work for this particular rehab. Costs will vary around the country, though, so if I were in your situation I'd ask friends/acquaintances to see if anyone knew a decent builder, and then get said builder to do you an estimate. At least then you'd have a ballpark idea of what you're talking about.

Personally, if faced with your options, I'd probably go demolish/rebuild unless it cost far, far less to rehab. The problem I've seen, time and time again, with full rehabs is that despite the best inspection in the world, you don't really know what you're going to run into when you start stripping everything back to the studs. All you need to do is have a couple of unanticipated situations and your project budget and timeline balloon out of control.

Good info.

So you're saying going to a regular "stick-built" home builder for that type of renovation?

[WSUCougar]

Check with your municipality regarding the different laws, taxes, etc., regarding a "renovation" versus a new demo/build. That may make your decision for you. :)

In our town, it's a major difference and thus you see a lot more major renovations of older homes.

[wade moore]

Check with your municipality regarding the different laws, taxes, etc., regarding a "renovation" versus a new demo/build. That may make your decision for you. :)

In our town, it's a major difference and thus you see a lot more major renovations of older homes.

I've done at least the preliminary investigations. The Modular Home Builder I am working with has done two of these demolish, then put up a modular in my neighberhood in the last 12 months, so I'm at least relatively comfortable that I'm ok. This was actually a big concern for me at first, but I'm hoping to get down to the County Offices ASAP to find out for sure.

[Arctus]

We could get basically everything we wanted for around $200k, but that does not include demolition. I have NO idea what that costs.

I looked up Demo costs in a Means Heavy Construction Cost Data Book:

It lists single story, single family house demo as $2,975 to $5,275. The two story range is $3,950 to $7,700

A couple of caveats:

1. The costs are more "rule of thumb" and used for planning purposes, and should not be considered "worst case scenario costs".

2. I'm assuming you are not removing the foundation.

3. The cost assumes a nominal haul (20 miles) but does not include any disposal fees.

4. The source I used is primarily used for large civil projects, your costs may be higher, as you really don't have an economy of scale working for you.

5. Your costs will be significantly higher if your house has asbestos shingles or insulation; or lead pipes.

Hopefully this at least gives you some ballpark numbers to work with.

[Grammaticus]

Since a home is your biggest purchase and likely most appreciable asset, I would suggest you dash the modular home idea. A modular home will not hold value and is not a good investment.

Based on the same logic, if modular homes are going up in your neighborhood, look at some other areas. Why sink so much money into something that will not hold value. If your mod home builder is telling you otherwise, talk to a realtor. The realtor will tell you what you can expect when it comes time to sell versus a traditional construction home.

If you are dead set on a mod being the only new home option, then I would definitely renovate and as someone else suggested, get some quotes from local contractors.

Another option for you if you just won’t budge on the mod thing, is to sell your current home and put the mod on a new lot. That way you do not lose what you have purchased already.

Good luck

[Franklinnoble]

Just FYI - Modular homes are much harder to finance than stick-built homes. Your mortgage options will be much, much smaller. You really need to consider this, as it affects not only your ability to get financing, but also the resale value of the home.

[Grammaticus]

Just FYI - Modular homes are much harder to finance than stick-built homes. Your mortgage options will be much, much smaller. You really need to consider this, as it affects not only your ability to get financing, but also the resale value of the home.
Yes, meaning you will likely pay a higher interest rate.

[wade moore]

Since a home is your biggest purchase and likely most appreciable asset, I would suggest you dash the modular home idea. A modular home will not hold value and is not a good investment.

Based on the same logic, if modular homes are going up in your neighborhood, look at some other areas. Why sink so much money into something that will not hold value. If your mod home builder is telling you otherwise, talk to a realtor. The realtor will tell you what you can expect when it comes time to sell versus a traditional construction home.

If you are dead set on a mod being the only new home option, then I would definitely renovate and as someone else suggested, get some quotes from local contractors.

Another option for you if you just won’t budge on the mod thing, is to sell your current home and put the mod on a new lot. That way you do not lose what you have purchased already.

Good luck

I'd like to hear more about this. One thing to consider is this purchase has little to do with wanting to sell down the road. This purchase means I intend to stay for at least 10-15 years, which means the value retention should not all that much...

I want to know more about this modular argument. Everything I read (not just stuff from the builder) states that the quality of a modular, a TRUE modular (not a psuedo modular/mobile) is far BETTER than stick-built. So why would there be a big decrease in value?

Moving to another lot is likely not an option. Part of the reason for all of this is the good deal we got here, so that it would cost much more to get anything close to equivalent in the area.

[wade moore]

Just FYI - Modular homes are much harder to finance than stick-built homes. Your mortgage options will be much, much smaller. You really need to consider this, as it affects not only your ability to get financing, but also the resale value of the home.

Huh? Seriously?

I don't get this.

[kcchief19]

Since a home is your biggest purchase and likely most appreciable asset, I would suggest you dash the modular home idea. A modular home will not hold value and is not a good investment.
It largely depends on the type of modular home. There are some modular homes I would absolutely agree with this. But there are some lines that are superbly done -- you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between them and a coventional home.

Typically, the advantage of a modular home is cost, and some modular home builders are furthering that advantage by offering higher grade materials such as Hardie board siding, 50-year roofs and superior energy efficiency. The downside is flexibility and space -- there are relatively fewer custom options for a modular home and many have features I personally don't care for, such as narrower hallways. But given Wade's location and pricing, I imagine that a modular home would be a very affordable and reasonable option.

Wade -- have you selected a manufacturer for your modular home? Just curious as to who you were going with -- that might impact my recommendation. :)

[kcchief19]

Huh? Seriously?

I don't get this.
No -- it's not true. The amount you can borrow on a modular home is no different than stick-built. Resale value is trickier to quantify, but it's typically not true either. In some cases, a modular home can gain more value than a stick-built home since the relative construction costs are lower, even in the overall value is lower too. This is particularly true in high-cost markets where new lower-priced housing is more difficult to obtain.

Again, a large part of it is standard of construction. If it's a bad modular home, it likely won't gain as much value as conventional home. If it's a good modular home, it won't make a difference.

[wade moore]

It largely depends on the type of modular home. There are some modular homes I would absolutely agree with this. But there are some lines that are superbly done -- you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between them and a coventional home.

Typically, the advantage of a modular home is cost, and some modular home builders are furthering that advantage by offering higher grade materials such as Hardie board siding, 50-year roofs and superior energy efficiency. The downside is flexibility and space -- there are relatively fewer custom options for a modular home and many have features I personally don't care for, such as narrower hallways. But given Wade's location and pricing, I imagine that a modular home would be a very affordable and reasonable option.

Wade -- have you selected a manufacturer for your modular home? Just curious as to who you were going with -- that might impact my recommendation. :)

The builder I'm currently talking to (no commitment yet) uses Cardinal Homes which from everything I have been able to find appear to be top of the line quality (and based on the fact that they cost almost twice as much as some others I was looking at, that would make some sense)...

Any input you have on brand would be great. I have not committed to anything, I've just leaned towards this builder because of the experience my neighbors have had with him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Given your location, I'm amazed that local ordinance is allowing demolition followed by replacement with modular. Don't get me wrong, I believe you, but I'm still amazed by it.

That said, I'd say you're almost certain to be better off financially to sell the existing & then put modular new construction on a new lot. At 75 years old, a lot of the value of your existing home is likely to be in the historic worth instead of the structure itself.

Caveat -- I certainly don't know the current real estate market conditions there, nor the specifics of your house, so I'm just opining on some general situations as I've seen them. YMMV most definitely.

Also, re: demolition costs -- a lot of that comes down to the hauling & disposal fees. The actual work with the crowbars & such isn't usually cost prohibitive, the other issues can be (so sayeth the man who has just had three walls blown out of a house as part of a remodel). Moving walls & stuff was actually a lot cheaper than I expected, but you have to make sure you know what the local ordinances governing disposal & such are and factor those costs in too.

[Franklinnoble]

It doesn't matter if you have the Taj Majal of modular homes. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac don't deal with loans for modular homes - period. That means your mortgage has almost zero secondary market value... meaning the paper can't get traded... meaning there are only a handful of lenders who specialize in these loans.

I went through the whole mess because the home I just moved out of was modular. It was nicer than the stick-built house I'm in now - but it's exponentially more difficult to get loans on modular homes. Which not only makes it more expensive for you, but it will make it harder to sell later on, as potential buyers will be turned off by the financing challenge.

[flere-imsaho]

Good info.

So you're saying going to a regular "stick-built" home builder for that type of renovation?

I probably would, in the sense that you'd want someone who's familiar with that type of work to actually do that type of work. Better yet, of course, would be to find a builder who specializes in renovations.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Better yet, of course, would be to find a builder who specializes in renovations.

I would suggest taking that advice even a step further -- find a builder who specializes in renovations of homes similar age to yours.

The difference in the style and quality of work between, say, renovators accustomed to working on historic homes vs those who usually deal with <20 y/o subdivision homes is pretty dramatic in my experience.

[flere-imsaho]

This article may be of interest, and also openly contradicts FN's assertion that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac aren't in the mortgage business for manufactured/modular homes: http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/mtg/19990722.asp

[flere-imsaho]

It doesn't matter if you have the Taj Majal of modular homes. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac don't deal with loans for modular homes - period.

Unless there's a huge difference between modular and manufactured homes (and WM seems to be describing a manufactured home), then FN is wrong: http://www.freddiemac.com/sell/expmkts/mhle.html (http://www.freddiemac.com/sell/expmkts/mhle.html)

[flere-imsaho]

I would suggest taking that advice even a step further -- find a builder who specializes in renovations of homes similar age to yours.

That's a good point, and I almost wrote it as well.

Depending on your area of the country, the depth to which builders will specialize may be considerable. For instance, here in Chicago I have a friend who works for a firm that does only gut rehabs of early-20th century 3-flats, turning them into luxury condos.

To find these guys, 3 suggestions:

1. Ask around, you may find someone who knows someone.
2. Ask a realtor, if you know one. Many realtors will also know a good bit about the local construction/renovation scene.
3. Drive around and look for houses similar to yours that are being rehabbed. There will usually be some advertising on the site for the renovating company.

[Franklinnoble]

Unless there's a huge difference between modular and manufactured homes (and WM seems to be describing a manufactured home), then FN is wrong: http://www.freddiemac.com/sell/expmkts/mhle.html (http://www.freddiemac.com/sell/expmkts/mhle.html)

Dude... I just went through the whole mess a year ago. Quote all the websites you want, but wade should talk to a few mortgage bankers before he makes this move - I'm telling you, it's a nightmare.

[st.cronin]

I agree with FN. When I was looking at homes earlier this year, every lender I talked to told me they would not write loans on modular homes OR manufactured homes, unless there was at least a 25% down payment.

[Grammaticus]

I'd like to hear more about this. One thing to consider is this purchase has little to do with wanting to sell down the road. This purchase means I intend to stay for at least 10-15 years, which means the value retention should not all that much...

I want to know more about this modular argument. Everything I read (not just stuff from the builder) states that the quality of a modular, a TRUE modular (not a psuedo modular/mobile) is far BETTER than stick-built. So why would there be a big decrease in value?

Moving to another lot is likely not an option. Part of the reason for all of this is the good deal we got here, so that it would cost much more to get anything close to equivalent in the area.
A well constructed site built home is the best at retaining value. Since appraisers can now use site built homes as comps for modular, it does help the modular stand up to the perceptions of being a super trailer, even though it is not one. Also, I did not mean to imply the mods actually lose value, sorry about that. I believe they just do not increase in value as fast as traditional built homes.

The modular construction is cheaper due to indoor building (weather does not impact) and same “plan” construction over and over so you have less waste. As someone pointed out a poorly constructed site built home may not fair so well in resale either. But you really want to avoid poor construction either way. I think where you get into trouble is when the mod home does not use the same quality of building materials as similar site built homes. It is also believed that better craftsman work on site built homes versus assembly line manufacture. Whether this is true or not it is a perception.

I would just be wary of the market and a realtor in your area can give you the best advice on how the modular retains value compared to traditional. I know here in Tenn. the modular homes are not desired by purchaser when compared to similar site built homes. Also, many areas have covenants against them and that always causes people to assume they are not as good (whether it is true or not). I think the modular has a varying degree of quality. Example, are you getting dry wall for the internal walls or are you getting the pre built stuff that has seems which are capped?

On the lot issue, if you got a good deal and can sell for market value now, you should be able to get a comparable lot. Just look at the “sell and buy a lot” cost versus the “tear down old construction cost”, which includes loss of equity in your current home (you just tore it down).

[flere-imsaho]

Dude... I just went through the whole mess a year ago. Quote all the websites you want, but wade should talk to a few mortgage bankers before he makes this move - I'm telling you, it's a nightmare.

That may be, but you said this:

It doesn't matter if you have the Taj Majal of modular homes. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac don't deal with loans for modular homes - period.

And Freddie Mac says this:

Freddie Mac is committed to purchasing mortgages secured by manufactured homes in support of our commitment to expand homeownership opportunities. Our requirements for manufactured homes are designed so that the mortgages we purchase are originated, underwritten and serviced in a way that will better ensure that we are putting qualified borrowers into homes they can both afford and maintain.

Don't you have me on ignore anyway?

[Franklinnoble]

Don't you have me on ignore anyway?

Yeah, but I can override the ignore and read when I know you're not talking politics. :D

Anyhow, I don't know what all those terms and conditions are on the Freddie Mac page, but I can confirm that I got the same response as st. cronin - in fact, some lenders wanted up to 33% to consider the loan. It was outrageous. But you can get 100% financing on a stick-built house all day long.

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, but I can override the ignore and read when I know you're not talking politics. :D

I'm going to have to be more sneaky, then.

Anyhow, I don't know what all those terms and conditions are on the Freddie Mac page, but I can confirm that I got the same response as st. cronin - in fact, some lenders wanted up to 33% to consider the loan. It was outrageous. But you can get 100% financing on a stick-built house all day long.

The Freddie Mac page is a good read, actually, and there's a linked PDF with more information. Having said that, a lot of it is pitched as "a way to help out people who normally can't afford homes" which, reading between the lines, means money down and high interest rates.

But yeah WM, you should check with a mortgage broker.

[kcchief19]

Unless there's a huge difference between modular and manufactured homes (and WM seems to be describing a manufactured home), then FN is wrong: http://www.freddiemac.com/sell/expmkts/mhle.html (http://www.freddiemac.com/sell/expmkts/mhle.html)
The problem is that FN doesn't know what a modular home is really. Yes, there is a difference between modular and manufactured homes. Both are built in factories, but modular homes are built in sections using local building code standards while manufactured homes are typically built as one unit and are built to federal manufactured home standards. Mobile homes are the classic manufactured homes, but you can find more progressive manufactured homes.

The problems FN is referring to are indeed with manufactured homes -- they have a shorter lifetime and often decrease in value the moment you buy them and never stop. As a result, lenders will require a higher downpayment and have more restrictions for manufactured homes since they want to make sure they don't lose their shirt on the loans.

[wade moore]

I appreciate all of the info guys, I really wasn't trying to be snide with my "I don't get it" I really didn't get it...

it seems that at the very least, there is some question about obtaining a mortgage and/or resale value. This is a huge decision that I won't go into without investigating "questions". Thats part of why I brought it up here. I want to be thorough, but if I don't know what questions to ask, I can't ask them. So as I go down this road, if I travel more towards modular I'll make sure those questions are asked of the "professionals" in the area first.

FWIW, I intend to put down at least 25% of the new construction loan if I were to do the modular as long as no major life changes happen between now and then.

To some points that JiMG and others were making...

The possibility of selling this house and moving are not as straight-forward in my mind as it may be for others. For those that don't know that much about the town I live in:

It has an odd makeup - http://www.city-data.com/city/Williamsburg-Virginia.html ... One of the major things to look at is this chart here of the age of the residents http://www.city-data.com/housing/houses-Williamsburg-Virginia.html . You'll notice two things compared to like.. ANY other city you loook at ;)... There is a HUGE spike in the college aged kids. Well, that's cause it's a college town. But the other thing you'll notice is there are basically as many 65 year-olds as their are 5-year olds. That's because it's a retirement town also. In fact, off the top of my head, I can't think of a town I consider more of a "retirement town" outside of FL or AZ.

Anyway. This creates a strange housing environment. The folks buying new homes in this area are established, have a fair amount of money, and could care less about having a yard to maintain ;). So, by buying a new home elsewhere here I get several weird things:

A) Difficult to find a home under 2500 square feet
B) Very small lots (although that's everywhere now) compared to my 1/2 acre
C) Close together homes (Again, everywhere now)
D) Strict Homeowner's associations.. or, there are several major gated communities around here.

So, Me getting into an "old community" has several advantages beyond liking the neighbors, but the lot sizes are generally at least 1/2 acre with many being 3 and 4 acres, there's no homeowner's association, i get my nice sized lot, etc.

In additon there's the added factor. I bought a somewhat run-down home from an unemployed, alcoholic mother who needed to sell before she ended up being foreclosed on since she couldn't make the mortgage for much longer. Therefore, I ended up paying about $125k for a home that with $5-10k worth of work could probably have sold for at least $175k in this market. I know you're going to say "put the $5-10k into it and get the extra money". But, simply put, I just don't think I'd be happy in a majority of the other communities around here.


And one more thing to JiMG - curious as to why you're surprised we can tear down? I see it happen in Fairfax County relatively frequently, so to be able to do it in much more "rural" James City County (i'm not in the city technically, but that city data seems to cover us to) seems logical to me?

[wade moore]

The problem is that FN doesn't know what a modular home is really. Yes, there is a difference between modular and manufactured homes. Both are built in factories, but modular homes are built in sections using local building code standards while manufactured homes are typically built as one unit and are built to federal manufactured home standards. Mobile homes are the classic manufactured homes, but you can find more progressive manufactured homes.

The problems FN is referring to are indeed with manufactured homes -- they have a shorter lifetime and often decrease in value the moment you buy them and never stop. As a result, lenders will require a higher downpayment and have more restrictions for manufactured homes since they want to make sure they don't lose their shirt on the loans.

Not sure if you saw my response up there to your brand question? Definately interested in your input there.

[wade moore]

Dola: Check out the unemployment in Williamsburg too ;).

[wade moore]

This site is fascinating to me ;)... It looks a bit different when I put my zip in and it just my zip, since the college is in a different zip code... http://www.city-data.com/zips/23185.html .. I'm one of 494 houses built before 1940 ;)

[kcchief19]

Not sure if you saw my response up there to your brand question? Definately interested in your input there.
Sorry ... I got sidetracked and forgot to come back to that. :)

I've heard the name, but I'm not terribly familiar with Cardinal as some others. By first impressions, they look about middle tier to me. Looking at their partners list, it's a lot of middle of the road suppliers. Of course, if they offer upgrade packages that might include a different list or they use the very best these companies offer, it might be a wash compared with more leading brands. It looks like they use a lot of vinyl siding, which is fine -- but I think on a modular home exterior design is critical. I would have no hesitation recommending a modular home builder who uses higher end products like Hardie Board siding or 30-year roofs, because to me that shows a committment to choosing to work with the best materials possible.

Is Genesis Homes in your area? You might check them out for comparison purchases. I know they are pretty big in that part of the country. They are probably going to be a whole lot more, but it might be a worthwhile comparison. They have some real sharp designs.

Of course, a lot of it depends on your local contractor too. Some of them will offer a higher end product that maybe the manufacturer does. Isn't Cardinal a regional modular manufacturer with local contractors who do the building?

[wade moore]

Sorry ... I got sidetracked and forgot to come back to that. :)

I've heard the name, but I'm not terribly familiar with Cardinal as some others. By first impressions, they look about middle tier to me. Looking at their partners list, it's a lot of middle of the road suppliers. Of course, if they offer upgrade packages that might include a different list or they use the very best these companies offer, it might be a wash compared with more leading brands. It looks like they use a lot of vinyl siding, which is fine -- but I think on a modular home exterior design is critical. I would have no hesitation recommending a modular home builder who uses higher end products like Hardie Board siding or 30-year roofs, because to me that shows a committment to choosing to work with the best materials possible.

Is Genesis Homes in your area? You might check them out for comparison purchases. I know they are pretty big in that part of the country. They are probably going to be a whole lot more, but it might be a worthwhile comparison. They have some real sharp designs.

Of course, a lot of it depends on your local contractor too. Some of them will offer a higher end product that maybe the manufacturer does. Isn't Cardinal a regional modular manufacturer with local contractors who do the building?

Your assessment of the way Cardinal works is correct - there's a local contractor who all he does is build Cardinal modulars. That's what has pulled me to Cardinal, is this guy and the success he's had with my neighbors. He gave me Cardinal Home Pamphlets that show what he can do that do not include EVERYTHING that's on the site, but has a fair amount. Would that give me an indication on what quality he personally is using? Again, not locked into him at all.

You're talking over my head a bit when you know the quality of manufacturers, etc. I'm not sure where you get this knowledge from, but do you have a recommendation of research to do to learn?

As for Gensis Homes - by their site, it looks like the closest builder is about 50 miles away. I would think they'd probably go 50 miles to build a home, but I'm not sure.

[kcchief19]

B) MASSIVE renovation. What I mean by this is basically having the house completely gutted, having the pipes replaced, maybe having the hot water heater moved (it's in the attic which I hate), brand new drywall, new floors, new siding, new windows, etc. In addition, adding probably around 500 or so square feet. I have NO idea what this would cost and honestly have no idea where to begin to find out.
I never really got around to answer this part of the question ... figured I'd stick my $.02 in here too. :)

If you want to entertain this option, I'd meet with both residential contractors and whole-house remodelors. Honestly, given what you seem to want to do and the cost invovled, a remodelor will probably be a better bet. Most builder contractors will want to take the house down to the frame at least if not down to the foundation and start from scratch. That will inevitably cost more money.

Whole-house remodeling has its drawbacks too, but if you like the current layout out of the home and don't want a lot changed -- moving walls, moving windows, etc. -- remodeling will almost always be the cheaper route.

One definite thing to factor in -- if you do go the whole-house remodel approach, move out temporarily and just let he contractor go. Being out of your house for two months and in an apartment is a heck of a lot easier than having a contractor live with you for four months. Working around people living in the house is a pain for both of you. Some contractors will be willing to do it, but don't put yourself through. Just add the cost of a short-term rental and moving expenses to the cost of the remodel.

[wade moore]

I never really got around to answer this part of the question ... figured I'd stick my $.02 in here too. :)

If you want to entertain this option, I'd meet with both residential contractors and whole-house remodelors. Honestly, given what you seem to want to do and the cost invovled, a remodelor will probably be a better bet. Most builder contractors will want to take the house down to the frame at least if not down to the foundation and start from scratch. That will inevitably cost more money.

Whole-house remodeling has its drawbacks too, but if you like the current layout out of the home and don't want a lot changed -- moving walls, moving windows, etc. -- remodeling will almost always be the cheaper route.

One definite thing to factor in -- if you do go the whole-house remodel approach, move out temporarily and just let he contractor go. Being out of your house for two months and in an apartment is a heck of a lot easier than having a contractor live with you for four months. Working around people living in the house is a pain for both of you. Some contractors will be willing to do it, but don't put yourself through. Just add the cost of a short-term rental and moving expenses to the cost of the remodel.

We don't anticipate significant changes beyond possibly knocking down one wall and putting up another where there used to be a wall but a previous owner knocked it down.. either way, relatively minor...

Moving out is definately something we are planning for now. If things remain the same, we have the advantage that I work from "home" (read: anywhere with an internet connection) and she is a teacher, so if we timed it right, we could stay anywhere.. but anyway, agreed...

[Franklinnoble]

The problem is that FN doesn't know what a modular home is really. Yes, there is a difference between modular and manufactured homes. Both are built in factories, but modular homes are built in sections using local building code standards while manufactured homes are typically built as one unit and are built to federal manufactured home standards. Mobile homes are the classic manufactured homes, but you can find more progressive manufactured homes.

The problems FN is referring to are indeed with manufactured homes -- they have a shorter lifetime and often decrease in value the moment you buy them and never stop. As a result, lenders will require a higher downpayment and have more restrictions for manufactured homes since they want to make sure they don't lose their shirt on the loans.

No, the problem is that lenders don't know the difference. I'm well aware of it myself. But, as usual, you see only the opportunity to take a cheap shot at me.

[kcchief19]

You're talking over my head a bit when you know the quality of manufacturers, etc. I'm not sure where you get this knowledge from, but do you have a recommendation of research to do to learn?
Honestly, it's mostly just my opinion from working within the home-building industry. It's the same as any other industry -- the biggest names aren't necessarily the best, but obscure brands aren't necessarily crap. A lot of the partners I see listed on the Cardinal site that I know of are usually a bit lower on the quality standard, but that doesn't mean they use them in every home. For instance -- MW Windows. I wasn't familar with them at all -- turns out they are a regional supplier. They might be a high-end window, but I'm just not familiar with them. On the other end is Georiga Pacific, which is a huge supplier of siding, but I consider to be a pretty low-end product for the most part. But companies like Delta faucets, Duron Paints, Merillat, Shaw, etc. are pretty middle of the road to me. That doesn't mean that Cardinal doesn't use the very best from those companies, so I would recommend against them just because of that.

I don't know a great place to send you for rankings of what is the best. This is an article I read recently, so it might be a starting point for background on some of the companies. Most of these products probably wouldn't be of interest, but it gives you an idea of who some of the players are.

http://www.ebuild.com/guide/resources/product-news.asp?ID=258

[wade moore]

Honestly, it's mostly just my opinion from working within the home-building industry. It's the same as any other industry -- the biggest names aren't necessarily the best, but obscure brands aren't necessarily crap. A lot of the partners I see listed on the Cardinal site that I know of are usually a bit lower on the quality standard, but that doesn't mean they use them in every home. For instance -- MW Windows. I wasn't familar with them at all -- turns out they are a regional supplier. They might be a high-end window, but I'm just not familiar with them. On the other end is Georiga Pacific, which is a huge supplier of siding, but I consider to be a pretty low-end product for the most part. But companies like Delta faucets, Duron Paints, Merillat, Shaw, etc. are pretty middle of the road to me. That doesn't mean that Cardinal doesn't use the very best from those companies, so I would recommend against them just because of that.

I don't know a great place to send you for rankings of what is the best. This is an article I read recently, so it might be a starting point for background on some of the companies. Most of these products probably wouldn't be of interest, but it gives you an idea of who some of the players are.

http://www.ebuild.com/guide/resources/product-news.asp?ID=258

Ah, didn't know you worked in the business. Yeah, obviously a lot of experience there that you can't just research.

Cool, your help is appreciated. As the time gets closer (we're a bit out before time to make a decisions, just doing research for now) I might PM you ;).

Any other closing thoughts on companies I might look for in this area?