Tour de France 2006 - Ullrich won't start!

[AlexB]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/5132320.stm


German rider Jan Ullrich has been suspended by his T-Mobile team on the eve of this year's Tour de France.


Cycling's governing body the UCI has told T-Mobile that Ullrich has been named in an anti-doping probe in Spain.

Ullrich's Spanish team-mate Oscar Sevilla and team manager Rudy Pevenage have also been suspended.

A team spokesman said: "If we are presented with evidence which leads us to doubt the credibility of our riders, then we act upon it immediately." <!-- E SF -->

Following the first reports of the scandal emanating from Spain, T-Mobile management asked all its riders to sign written declarations stating that they were not involved in any way.

Team manager Olaf Ludwig said: "We talked to the riders several times and even have their declarations of innocence in written form.

"At first we had no reason to doubt the riders' statements, but that situation has now changed profoundly."

Ullrich may not be the last big name to be suspended from the Tour de France after organisers ASO (Amaury Sport Organisation) revealed that they have been given a list of more than 50 riders involved in the probe.

ASO spokesman Philippe Sudres said: "The Spanish Ministry of Sport handed the file to the cycling federation who passed it on to UCI and Tour organisers."

Denied wrong-doing

Reports emerged on Tuesday that Ullrich was part of the investigation but he immediately denied any wrong-doing.

Ullrich, the 1997 winner, had been among the favourites for this year's Tour, which starts on Saturday.

Seven-time champion Lance Armstrong retired after last year's triumph leaving the field wide open.

In addition to his win in 1997, the German has been runner-up five times and was third last year.
Italy's Lorenzo Bernucci and Germany's Stephan Schreck will now replace Ullrich and Sevilla in the T-Mobile team.

Wow. I like the Tour, but the drugs and smear campaigns in this sport are ridiculous :(

[Blade6119]

Wow. I like the Tour, but the drugs and smear campaigns in this sport are ridiculous :(
edit: why can;t I get rid of the bold text?
Like baseball? Its just reporters searching for a story, and finding one. Most likely if you looked close at any sport you would find this.

[Northwood_DK]

Latest news in the Danish papers is that Giro Italia winner Ivan Basso is also out.

[AlexB]

Like baseball? Its just reporters searching for a story, and finding one. Most likely if you looked close at any sport you would find this.

In baseball, would the bookies' favourite team suspend it's star pitcher on the eve of the World Series, if that player had not been banned by MLB?

This is what has happened here - Ullrich was the favourite, the Telekom team leader, and although he has not been banned by the governing bodies, he and his team-mate have been removed by Telekom themselves.

In the past there have been high profile doping convinctions (not allegations, convictions) of Marco Pantani, Richard Virenque, entire teams (most notably Festina, which was one of the leading two or three teams at the time) and every year two or three minimum seem to get caught at the Tour...

[Emiliano]

Latest news in the Danish papers is that Giro Italia winner Ivan Basso is also out.
Yep, just heard that. :(

[MIJB#19]

Interesting. When one doctors phones anothert and mentions your name, it's enough reason to get you suspended until the official authorities can prove whether you were rightfully (or not) mentioned.

For good order, the riders who are being suspended today and denied starting in Le Tour de France are 'officially' mentioned on a list of 58 suspects. The teams all committed to a ruling that says all riders who are suspects in doping cases are not to be selected for races, even if they are never convicted before.

[wbatl1]

OK, time for my US bias to show...any US born riders or anyone of Discovery banned?

[Northwood_DK]

OK, time for my US bias to show...any US born riders or anyone of Discovery banned?

Tyler Hamilton is the only US name I see on the list of 58 names.


Astana-Würth: Michele Scarponi (ITA), Marcos Antonio Serrano (ESP), David Etxebarria (ESP), Joseba Beloki (ESP), Angel Vicioso (ESP), Isidro Nozal (ESP), Unai Osa (ESP), Jörg Jaksche (GER), Giampaolo Caruso (ITA)

CSC: Ivan Basso (ITA)

Caisse d'Epargne-Iles Baleares: Constantino Zaballa (ESP)

Saunier Duval: Carlos Zarate (ESP)

AG2R: Francisco Mancebo (ESP)

T-Mobile : Jan Ullrich (GER), Oscar Sevilla (ESP)

Phonak : José Enrique Gutierrez (ESP), José Ignacio Gutierrez (ESP)

Comunidad Valenciana: Vicente Ballester (ESP), David Bernabeu (ESP), David Rodriguez (ESP), José Adrian Bonilla (ESP), Juan Gomis Lopez (ESP), Eladio Jimenez Sanchez (ESP), David Latasa (ESP), Ruben Plaza (ESP), José Luis Martinez (ESP), Manuel Llorent (ESP), Antonio Olmo (ESP), David Munoz (ESP), Javier Cherro (ESP), Javier Pascual (ESP, tidligere rytter, nuværende mekaniker)

Unibet.com: Carlos Garcia Quesada (ESP)

Other: Roberto Heras (ESP), Angel Casero (ESP), Santiago Perez (ESP), Tyler Hamilton (USA), Igor Gonzalez Galdeano (ESP)

[MIJB#19]

I see only 38 names, so there are still 20 missing. I'd also like to see the names of the about 150 non cyclists now. It's stupid that only cycling gets the bad name here.

[Alf]

cyclists are only mentionned there because tomorrow is starting day for "Le Tour".

[Critch]

Cycling is getting a bad name because it's the day before it's biggest event and half the field has been suspended for doping.

At least Robert Millar isn't on the list, he's not been back from his 2 year ban long enough to find a new suplier, I guess.

[King of New York]

Well, at least Jan Ullrich can now resume his career as drummer for Metallica.

[Maple Leafs]

Let me guess... he strongly denied the allegations, pointed out that he had never failed a test, and hinted at some dark conspiracy that he couldn't get into right now?

[AlexB]

Cycling is getting a bad name because it's the day before it's biggest event and half the field has been suspended for doping.

At least Robert Millar isn't on the list, he's not been back from his 2 year ban long enough to find a new suplier, I guess.

If Robert Millar was in this year's Tour I would be almost certain he was on drugs - he'd be in his mid 40's by now :D

I assume you mean David Millar ;)

[Critch]

If Robert Millar was in this year's Tour I would be almost certain he was on drugs - he'd be in his mid 40's by now :D

I assume you mean David Millar ;)

Haha, getting my Millar's mixed up. Spent so long making sure that I spelt Millar right, I forgot about the first name :)

[MIJB#19]

Let me guess... he strongly denied the allegations, pointed out that he had never failed a test, and hinted at some dark conspiracy that he couldn't get into right now?Well, what would you do when you were suspected of anything, but you know there's nothing proven at all?

[Critch]

Well, what would you do when you were suspected of anything, but you know there's nothing proven at all?

I'd steal a white Bronco and make a break for it at 10 miles per hour. I believe it's worked in the past.

[AlexB]

I'd steal a white Bronco and make a break for it at 10 miles per hour. I believe it's worked in the past.

:D

[Solecismic]

Kevin Millar was suspended, too. Turns out "Cowboy Up" is some kind of code for blood doping. Not to mention those incessant fried chicken commercials. I'm sure there's something bannable at KFC.

The Tour is easily the most bizarre sporting event in the world. Where else could you have a 90-mile race where the difference between first and last is about two seconds? And everyone knows it beforehand.

The time trial stages are a lot more interesting.

Oh well. I don't get Nascar or the Kentucky Derby, either, and they're apparently more popular than hockey these days. At least in the Kentucky Derby, the credit goes to the right person. I mean animal.

It's too bad the referees in the World Cup haven't been caught with illegal drugs.

[flere-imsaho]

I'd steal a white Bronco and make a break for it at 10 miles per hour. I believe it's worked in the past.

LOL. I almost spit my drink all over my monitor because of you. :)

Kevin Millar was suspended, too. Turns out "Cowboy Up" is some kind of code for blood doping. Not to mention those incessant fried chicken commercials. I'm sure there's something bannable at KFC

Yeah, you too. ;)

[terpkristin]

For anybody who doesn't follow cycling regularly and wants some more info, this is a good synopsis/timeline of what happened: http://eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2006/sport_sto917229.shtml (story pasted below).

Also, because the Astana-Wurth team had too many people have to be pulled due to the allegations, the team didn't have enough to compete so Vino is out.

Also, from another forum I subscribe to:
______________________________________________
...both Ulrich and Basso have a clause on their contract stating that they are NOT allowed to speak to ANY doctor of ANY kind outside of their team doctors WITHOUT the permission of the team.

Both teams were shown irrefutable evidence that their riders had been in constant contact with this doctor from Spain. That alone means they can suspend them from the race, without even mentioning that the alleged spanish doctor is supposed to have been supplying performance enhancing drugs.
_______________________________________________

And now, for the story...
_______________________________________________
T-Mobile have been crushed on the eve of the race, Bjarne Riis is missing his golden son, and the Tour de France is about to start without the two favourites. A disaster in the making for years, how did the sport's biggest doping scandal come to this?
Catastrophe in the making
"We've had doubts. We had heard comments. I always thought that this day had to come in order to clear up those doubts."
Fugencio Sanchez, the head of Spain's cycling federation, may have been talking about Spanish cycling specifically when he spoke to the associated press earlier this week.
But on the day before the opening of the Tour de France, Sanchez' words sound more like a foreboding epitaph for the sport itself.
"I know all of these people. They have spent their lives in Spanish cycling and all of them have an important career in cycling," Sanchez said of the principals involved in the country's doping probe. "I was always suspicious."
Sanchez' suspicions dated as far back as the 1998 Festina doping debacle, which broke on the eve of that year's Tour de France.
"The police operation was necessary. We had gone astray in anti-doping issues in Spain," he described the latest operation. "We had the duty to start persecuting those frauds."
The timeline
Jesus takes a stand - April 6, 2004: Former Kelme rider Jesus Manzano testifies in Italy against team doctor Eufemiano Fuentes, accusing the doctor of administering EPO injections during the 2001 Giro and blood transfusions during the 2003 Tour de France.
Liberty start to suffer - November 8, 2005: Vuelta à Espana champion Roberto Heras of Liberty Seguros is suspended for a positive EPO test at the Tour of Spain. Team boss Manolo Saiz protests his rider's innocence.
Heras banished from the land - February 8, 2006: Heras handed two-year ban by Spanish Cycling Federation.
The Sting - February, 2006: The Spanish Civil Guard "learns that certain people are furnishing top-level athletes with doping products and practicing blood doping." A sting is set-up focused on a Madrid apartment and laboratory.
Operation Puerto in effect - May 23, 2006: Police arrest Dr. Fuentes, Saiz, Comunidad Valenciana sporting director Ignacio Labarta, Madrid doctor José Luis Merino, and former mountain biker Alberto Léon after raids uncover "more than 100 bags of frozen blood," "vast quantities of drugs," and several documents with names of riders and their training programmes. The probe becomes known as "Operation Puerto" in the press.
Basso nears Italy victory amidst rumours- May 24, 2006: Saiz is conditionally released. Spanish radio Cedena Ser first cites Tour of Italy leader Ivan Basso as one of Fuentes' clients. Basso affirms innocence.
Liberty decides it doesn't want to be Liberty - May 25, 2006: American Insurance company Liberty Seguros withdraws sponsorship of team of that same name, citing Saiz' arrest. Cedena Ser first reports Ullrich's involvement. T-Mobile and Ullrich deny charges.
Ullrich leaves Giro - May 26, 2006: Labarta and Léon are released on the condition that they visit a judge every 15 days. Ullrich pulls out of Giro with three stages left to go, saying the decision has no connection with Spanish reports.
Big bail for docs - May 27, 2006: The two doctors, Merino and Fuentes, exit prison as each are forced to pay 120,000 euros in bail. Fuentes is charged with endangering the public health.
Basso on top of the world - May 28, 2006: Basso wins first Tour of Italy.
Saiz steps down, sort of - June 9, 2006: Saiz temporarily quits as sporting director of Astana-Wurth, previously Liberty Seguros. He remains majority owner of the team.
Comunidad disinvited - June 13, 2006: The Tour de France rescinds the wild-card invitation of Comunidad (previously Kelme), citing Labarta's involvement in the scandal.
UCI back Astana-Wurth- June 22, 2006: Asked to rule on pro squad Astana-Wurth's participation in the Tour de France, the UCI Pro Tour lets the former Liberty squad keep its licence, and hence race.
Spanish riders protest innocence - June 25, 2006: The Spanish national championships are halted as riders protest the media's coverage of the case "Operation Puerto." Spanish newspaper El Pais says that an official judicial report lists 58 riders as being involved with Dr. Fuentes.
Tour politely asks Astana to leave - June 26, 2006: The Tour de France asks Astana-Wurth to pull out of the race, Astana refuses and the case goes to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). Ullrich again denies charges, still backed by T-Mobile boss Rudy Pevenage.
The calm before the storm - June 28, 2006: Jan Ullrich's representatives say he is considering legal action against El Pais, which has said authorities found code names for Ullrich, including "Jan" and "Son of Rudy" amongst the documents it had seized.
Stuff hits the fan - June 29, 2006: Spanish press outlets report that the Spanish judicial sources had released the names of 58 riders involved in the affair, "many of them foreign and some part of the elite." Gag order on official report lifted by Spanish judge. Cacena Ser reveals the names of riders listed in the case, including Jan Ullrich, Ivan Basso, and Francisco Mancebo. Ullrich and T-Mobile communications director Christian Frommert again assert rider's innocence. CAS rule that Astana-Wurth and top contender Alexandre Vinoukorov can participate in 2006 Tour de France.
The beginning of the end - June 30, 2007, Overnight: Spanish Sports Minister Jaime Lissavetsky hands report to International Cycling Union (UCI), which turns over report to Tour de France organisers.
Shockwaves on Tour's eve - 9:30 CET: Jan Ullrich's T-Mobile team say that they have received "genuine proof" against their team leader, as the race favourite is suspended along with team-mate Oscar Sevilla and sporting director Rudy Pevenage.
LeBlanc: It's not over - 10:30 CET: Race organiser Jean Marie LeBlanc says that five or six riders would ultimately be implicated and suspended by day's end.
Marca: Basso is cooked - 11:30 CET: Spanish daily newspaper Marca reports that race favourite and 2005 runner-up Ivan Basso will be suspended from the Tour.
Press conference: Riders being informed - 12:00 CET: Tour director Christian Prudhomme says that the riders who are being asked to leave the Tour for citation in Spanish probe will not be replaced and are currently being informed. "Bjarne Riis has already warned Basso and AG2R team boss Vincent Lavenu is talking to Mancebo."
Riis makes it official - 14:00 CET: CSC team manager Bjarne Riis announces his star pupil Ivan Basso will not race in the 2006 Tour de France. Riis says he can hardly believe the news which led to the decision, but that he has an obligation to the team.
Mancebo disgraced - 15:15 CET: Fourth place in the 2005 Tour, Mancebo will not be allowed to seek a podium in this year's race. His AG2R sporting director calls Mancebo's involvement in the Spanish probe "an enormous deception" on the part of the rider.
UCI gets involved - 16:00 CET: The International Cycling Union says that three Astana-Wurth riders listed to start the Tour were included in the Spanish probe. If they are suspended, Vinokourov's team will not have enough riders to race.
And now we play the waiting game: No word on Astana's fate as the evening winds down. The Tour de France gets set to start on Saturday amidst the greatest doping crisis in its history.

/tk

[terpkristin]

Dola,
Here's the lineup slated to start the Prologue tomorrow:

Editor's Note:Changes in the rosters of several Tour de France teams reflect exclusions due to the Operación Puerto investigation report (http://velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10176.0.html)released late Thursday. Directors of all Tour de France teams voted not to allow those riders to be replaced.
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15256.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table><hr>Discovery Channel (http://velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10137.0.html)
George Hincapie
Yaroslav Popovych
Paolo Savoldelli
Jose Azevedo
Egoi Martinez
Pavel Padrnos
Viatcheslav Ekimov
Benjamin Noval
Jose Luis Rubiera
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15257.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Team CSC (http://velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10138.0.html)
<strike>Ivan Basso (I)</strike>
Carlos Sastre (Sp)
Fränk Schleck (Lux)
Jens Voigt (G)
Giovanni Lombardi (I)
Stuart O'Grady (Aus)
Bobby Julich (USA)
David Zabriskie (USA)
Christian Vande Velde (USA)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15258.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>T-Mobile (http://velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10140.0.html)
<strike>Jan Ullrich (G)</strike>
Giuseppe Guerini (I)
Serhiy Honchar (Ukr)
Matthias Kessler (G)
Andreas Klöden (G)
Eddy Mazzoleni (I)
Michael Rogers (Aus)
Patrik Sinkewitz (G)
<strike>Oscar Sevilla (Sp)</strike>
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15259.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Ag2r (http://velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10141.0.html)
<strike>Francisco Mancebo (Sp)</strike>
Christophe Moreau (F)
Alexandre Usov (Blr)
Simon Gerrans (Aus)
Stephane Goubert (F)
Samuel Dumoulin (F)
Cyril Dessel (F)
Mikel Astarloza (Sp)
José Luis Arrieta (Sp)
Astaná-Würth
<small>*The Astaná-Würth team has voluntarily withdrawn from the Tour de France after five of its riders were implicated in the Operación Puerto scandal .</small>
<strike><strike>Joseba Beloki (Sp)</strike></strike>
<strike>Carlos Barredo (Sp)</strike>
<strike>Luis León Sánchez (Sp)</strike>
<strike><strike>Allan Davis (Aus)</strike></strike>
<strike><strike>Sergio Paulinho </strike></strike>
<strike><strike>Alberto Contador (Sp)</strike></strike>
<strike>Andrey Kashechkin (Kz)</strike>
<strike><strike>Isidro Nozal (Sp)</strike></strike>
<strike>Alexandre Vinokourov (Kz)</strike>
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15262.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Gerolsteiner (http://velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10142.0.html)
Levi Leipheimer (USA)
Georg Totschnig (A)
Markus Fothen (G)
David Kopp (G)
Sebastian Lang (G)
Ronny Scholz (G)
Fabian Wegmann (G)
Peter Wrolich (A)
Beat Zberg (Swi)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15263.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Rabobank (http://velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10159.0.html)
Oscar Freire (Spa)
Juan Antonio Flecha (Spa)
Denis Menchov (Rus)
Michael Boogerd (Nl)
Bram de Groot(Nl)
Thomas Dekker (Nl)
Joost Posthuma (Nl)
Pieter Weening (Nl)
Michael Rasmussen (Dk)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15264.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Davitamon-Lotto (http://velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10160.0.html)
Johan Vansummeren (B)
Leon Van Bon (Nl)
Gert Steegmans (B)
Fred Rodriguez (USA)
Robbie McEwen (Aus)
Chris Horner (USA)
Christophe Brandt (B)
Mario Aerts (B)
Cadel Evans (Aus)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15265.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Phonak (http://velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10161.0.html)
Victor Hugo Pena (Col)
Alexandre Moos (Swi)
Koos Moerenhout (Nl)
M. Angel Martin Perdiguero (Sp)
Nicolas Jalabert (F)
Robert Hunter (RSA)
Bert Grabsch (G)
Floyd Landis (USA)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15266.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Lampre-Fondital
Patxi Vila Errandonea (Sp)
Tadej Valjavec
Paolo Tiralongo (I)
Daniele Righi (I)
Salvatore Commesso (I)
Marzio Bruseghin (I)
Daniele Bennati (I)
Alessandro Ballan (I)
Damiano Cunego (I)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15267.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears
Alejandro Valverde (Sp)
David Arroyo (Sp)
Isaac Galvez (Sp)
Jose Vicente Garcia Acosta (Sp)
Oscar Pereiro (Sp)
Xabier Zandio (Sp)
Florent Brard
Nicolas Portal (F); Vladimir Karpets (Rus)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15268.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Quick Step-Innergetic
Tom Boonen (Bel)
Wilfried Cretskens (Bel)
Steven De Jongh (Nl)
Juan Manuel Garate (Spa)
Filippo Pozzato (Ita)
Bram Tankink (Nl)
Mateo Tosatto (Ita)
José Rujano (Col)
Cedric Vasseur (Fra)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15269.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Crédit Agricole
Christophe le Mevel (F)
Thor Hushovd (N)
Sébastien Hinault (F)Patrice Halgand (F)
Jimmy Engoulvent (F)
Julian Dean (NZ)
Anthony Charteau (F)
Pietro Caucchioli (I)
Lazlo Bodrogi (H)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15270.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Euskaltel-Euskadi
Iban Mayo (Sp)
Haimar Zubeldia (Sp)
Iñaki Isasi (Sp)
Unai Etxebarria (Sp)
Gorka Verdugo (Sp)
Iñigo Landaluce (Sp)
Aitor Hernández (Sp)
David López (Sp)
Iker Camaño (Sp)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15271.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Cofidis
Stephane Auge (F)
Jimmy Casper (F)
Sylvain Chavanel (F)
Arnaud Coyot (F)
David Moncoutie (F)
Critsian Moreni (I)
Ivan Parra (Col)
Rik Verbrugghe (B)
Bradley Wiggins (GB)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15272.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Saunier Duval
David Millar (GB)
Jose Angel Gomez Marchante (Sp)
David Cañada (Sp)
David de la Fuente (Sp)
Ruben Lobato (Sp)
Francisco Ventoso (Sp)
Riccardo Ricco (I)
Gilberto Simoni (I)
Christophe Rinero (F)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15273.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Francaise des Jeux
Benoit Vaugrenard (F)
Francis Mourey (F)
Christophe Mengin (F)
Thomas Lokvist (S)
Sébastien Joly (F)
Philippe Gilbert (F)
Bernhard Eisel (A)
Carlos Da Cruz (F)
Sandy Casar (F)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15274.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Liquigas for Tour
Danilo Di Luca (I)
Stefano Garzelli (I)
Magnus Bäckstedt (S)
Luca Paolini (I)
Manuel Quinziato (I)
Michael Albasini (Swi)
Patrick Calcagni (Swi)
Kjell Carlström (Fin)
Matej Mugerli (Slo)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15275.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Bouygues Telecom
Walter Beneteau (F)
Laurent Brochard (F)
Pierrick Fedrigo (F)
Anthony Geslin)
Laurent Lefevre (F)
Jerome Pineau (F)
Didier Rous (F)
Matthieu Sprick (F)
Thomas Voeckler (F)
<table align="right" height="108" width="120"><tbody><tr><td height="108" width="120">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15276.t.gif</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Milram
Erik Zabel (G)
Ralf Grabsch (G)
Christian Knees (G)
Bjorn Schroder(G)
Andrej Grivko (Ukr)
Marco Velo (I)
Mirko Celestino (I)
Fabio Sacchi (I)
Maxim Iglinsky (Kaz)
<table align="right" height="120" width="116"><tbody><tr><td height="120" width="116">http://images.velonews.com/images/news/9970.15277.t.jpg</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr><tr><td align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Agritubel
Benoit Salmon (F)
Samuel Plouhinec (F)
Juan Miguel Mercado (Sp)
José Alberto Martinez
Christophe Laurent (F)
Eduardo Gonzalo Ramierez (Sp)
Moises Duenas Nevado (Sp)
Cedric Coutouy (F)
Manuel Calvente (Sp)
/tk

[Glengoyne]

It looks to really be wide open with all those riders out.

Lots and lots of riders in the running. A handicapper's nightmare.

[amdaily]

I'm usually a huge cycing fan but fuck this shit. Remind me next year when it is about to start...

[fantastic flying froggies]

I'm usually a huge cycing fan but fuck this shit. Remind me next year when it is about to start...

Actually, this should make for a very interesting Tour.

[MIJB#19]

Dola,
Here's the lineup slated to start the Prologue tomorrow:For what it's worth, there are some errors in the list you posted.

Davitamon: Leon van Bon (Nl) isn't starting, instead Wim Vansevenant (B) does.
Phonak: missing on the list is Axel Merckx (B).
Credit Agricole: Laszlo Bodrogi (H) isn't starting, instead Alexandre Botcharov (Rus) is.
FDJeux.com: Francis Mourey (F) isn't starting, instead Gustav Larsson (S) is.

[terpkristin]

For what it's worth, there are some errors in the list you posted.

Davitamon: Leon van Bon (Nl) isn't starting, instead Wim Vansevenant (B) does.
Phonak: missing on the list is Axel Merckx (B).
Credit Agricole: Laszlo Bodrogi (H) isn't starting, instead Alexandre Botcharov (Rus) is.
FDJeux.com: Francis Mourey (F) isn't starting, instead Gustav Larsson (S) is.

That was from Velonews as of last night.
They may not have had the final list but really, the changes you have I don't see impacting the bulk of the race...i.e. I don't see the "contenders" list really changing.

/tk

[MIJB#19]

That was from Velonews as of last night.
They may not have had the final list but really, the changes you have I don't see impacting the bulk of the race...i.e. I don't see the "contenders" list really changing.

/tkYeah, the contenders list shouldn't change much. Botcharov used to be a top10 contender in the past, but he's a bit over the top already. And so is Merckx. But they're not expected to be in the realm of guys like Landis, Leipheimer, Menchov, Moreau and Valverde.

I figured you copy pasted the info. I just wanted to make the information complete. Still, these 'chances' were known for at least a week, but many sources had these errors.

[terpkristin]

Yeah, the contenders list shouldn't change much. Botcharov used to be a top10 contender in the past, but he's a bit over the top already. And so is Merckx. But they're not expected to be in the realm of guys like Landis, Leipheimer, Menchov, Moreau and Valverde.

I figured you copy pasted the info. I just wanted to make the information complete. Still, these 'chances' were known for at least a week, but many sources had these errors.

Agreed. :)

Meanwhile, I miss having OLN cuz I can't see the race anymore. :(

Granted, it seems the Prologue finished more or less like I thought it would for the top finishers...at least, there were no surprises.

/tk

[MIJB#19]

Agreed. :)

Meanwhile, I miss having OLN cuz I can't see the race anymore. :(

Granted, it seems the Prologue finished more or less like I thought it would for the top finishers...at least, there were no surprises.

/tkDenis Menchov disappointed a bit. Just like last year. As did the Dutch commentators. They missed the fact that our own Joost Posthuma took the lead in the young riders standings to earn wearing the white jersey.

[Craptacular]

I was thinking about upgrading my DISH package to get OLN for the month, but this made me reconsider. I'll just listen to the webcast at work in the mornings.

[Glengoyne]

Today's offering was fairly interesting. Hincappie's move to win the time bonus caught me by surprise. I thought that Boonen might make a run at it, but hadn't even considered Hincappie. I guess most of the rest of the field hadn't either.

Too bad about Hushovd, with damn fans crowding the riders. I hope he'll be able to continue tomorrow without it noticably effecting him.

[thealmighty]

...Too bad about Hushovd, with damn fans crowding the riders. I hope he'll be able to continue tomorrow without it noticably effecting him.

What exactly happened? My Tivo taping went off several minutes before the end of the broadcast. Up to where I saw, he was up and coasting with everyone else after the finish.

[Glengoyne]

What exactly happened? My Tivo taping went off several minutes before the end of the broadcast. Up to where I saw, he was up and coasting with everyone else after the finish.

The sponsor of the Green Jersey competition passed out these green plastic/cardboard "hands" for the fans to wave about. With Hincappie's bonus to overcome, Hushovd had to finish top three to retain the yellow. He was going for it. He bolted inside to pass Boonen, I think, and in doing so he got too close to he crowd leaning over the railings, and waving those green hands. One of the hands caught him across the arm, and gave him what one could describe as the most serious paper cut you can imagine. He finished the stage of course, but he was bleeding pretty seriously. There was a shot of him on his back, blood all over the Yellow Jersey, with some guy applying pressure to the wound. It looked a lot worse than it apparently was. The team is saying he'll be fine.

[thealmighty]

Talk about bad luck...


...if he was an American, he'd sue.

[amdaily]

So, exactly how long is the poor Discovery Channel stuck sponsoring this pathetic group of losers?

[MIJB#19]

So, exactly how long is the poor Discovery Channel stuck sponsoring this pathetic group of losers?
Through 2008.

Actually, they aren't doing all that bad this year, they do rank 5th in the team world rankings right now. Losing Lance Armstrong wasn't something small. A new champion doesn't stand up like nothing happened.

Personally, I didn't understand the George Hincapie hype. I mean, he had great days last year, but until Tour 2005, he wasn't really tested/used as a winner type rider, especially not at this level. It'll take some time to find a new champion, but I doubt that Hincapie is that guy. From the riders riding this year, only one managed to finish top 10 before in the Tour de France. No, not Hincapie, not the touted future star Yaroslav Popovych, not Giro d'Italia winner Paolo Savoldelli. Nope, it's Jose Azevedo, who, oh surprise, was and is the best Discovery Channel rider so far this Tour.

[wbatl1]

Through 2008.

Actually, they aren't doing all that bad this year, they do rank 5th in the team world rankings right now. Losing Lance Armstrong wasn't something small. A new champion doesn't stand up like nothing happened.

Personally, I didn't understand the George Hincapie hype. I mean, he had great days last year, but until Tour 2005, he wasn't really tested/used as a winner type rider, especially not at this level. It'll take some time to find a new champion, but I doubt that Hincapie is that guy. From the riders riding this year, only one managed to finish top 10 before in the Tour de France. No, not Hincapie, not the touted future star Yaroslav Popovych, not Giro d'Italia winner Paolo Savoldelli. Nope, it's Jose Azevedo, who, oh surprise, was and is the best Discovery Channel rider so far this Tour.

I completely agree about Hincapie. While a very good if not great classics rider, and a solid domestique to protect the leader in the stage races, Hincapie never showed the ability to stay near the top of any GC.

[Critch]

So, exactly how long is the poor Discovery Channel stuck sponsoring this pathetic group of losers?

Good timing :) Stage win for Popovich and Discovery this afternoon.

[Craptacular]

Well today was certainly interesting. I was listening to the Eurosport webcast for most of the last hour or two of the race. Even when they announced Landis fell off the pace, I was thinking he wouldn't lose THAT much. Uhh, good call there. I couldn't believe the time gaps they were announcing, or that I was seeing on the official TDF website. Before the final climb, the commentators were all talking about how it wasn't a real good climb to attack on (or worry about losing too much time on). They hit the nail on the head!!

Part of me thinks Landis is going to attack tomorrow, and have a shot at getting on the podium with a decent time trial. Remember, Floyd has generally been considered one of the best descenders in cycling. From the top of the Colombiere (2/3 of the way to the end), there is a very long descent, a small Cat 3 climb, then the Off-Category climb up the Joux-Plane, follwed by a tricky descent into Morzine. This was the same finish to a stage in 2000, where Lance cracked (and Marco Pantani had a Landis-type blowup) on the final climb, and Roberto Heras crashed on the descent into Morzine. The time trial is a hilly course that may suit him. Is he going to win? No. However, the podium is still an outside shot ... if his legs can recover, of course.

[Glengoyne]

I completely agree about Hincapie. While a very good if not great classics rider, and a solid domestique to protect the leader in the stage races, Hincapie never showed the ability to stay near the top of any GC.

I thought Hincappie had two top ten finishes in the Tour.

Don't get me wrong. I was surprised to hear him touted as a favorite by OLN, though I understand their motivation to do so. I felt that Lance's last Discovery team had lost too much from the year before. It made his last Tour win really all that more impressive in my book. The team didn't ride the field into the ground as it had in prevoius years, and Hincappie was the last rider to lead out Armstrong. He, well the whole team except for Lance, even got dropped on a climb midway through a stage last year.

Landis I felt differently about, as his defection to Phonak was one of the big factors in the weakening of Discovery.

[thealmighty]

I hope Oscar Pereiro wins. Giving someone 30 minutes in one stage, and the yellow jersey, and thinking you are going to get it back. Priceless!! Plus, all the others let him go. THey all know he has finished top ten (10th) twice, yet did nothing. Phonak just does not have the team to help a true champion (not that Landis would have won today anyway). Can you imagine Lance giving the jersey away with a week to go because he was worried about his team having to work.

[Glengoyne]

I hope Oscar Pereiro wins. Giving someone 30 minutes in one stage, and the yellow jersey, and thinking you are going to get it back. Priceless!! Plus, all the others let him go. THey all know he has finished top ten (10th) twice, yet did nothing. Phonak just does not have the team to help a true champion (not that Landis would have won today anyway). Can you imagine Lance giving the jersey away with a week to go because he was worried about his team having to work.

I did like Landis' take on this the day after the Pereiro stage. Essentially he said "well if I can't get it back, then I wasn't very likely to hold on to it anyway."

I think the idea was that once they hit the alps that Landis would regain the Yellow, and then would have two teams supporting him. Though I agree giving the Yellow to Pereiro was pretty questionable. The guy has top ten finishes and I believe he won a mountain stage a couple of years ago. That was the part that didn't make sense.

[Desnudo]

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/88/pics/88aupdate3.jpg

[rkmsuf]

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/88/pics/88aupdate3.jpg

That has to be dissapointing for the big Russian.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Landis is having a great day so far, virtually back on the podium.

Let's see if he can make it up the final climb.

[Critch]

Bad though Landis was yesterday, you've got to give him mad props (as I believe the young people say) for his efforts so far today. He looks like he's going to make up a huge chunk of what he lost yesterday.

[cartman]

Bad though Landis was yesterday, you've got to give him mad props (as I believe the young people say) for his efforts so far today. He looks like he's going to make up a huge chunk of what he lost yesterday.

What an amazing 24 hours for Landis. After the horrid ride he had yesterday, to making up almost the entire 8 minute deficit today. Wow, that has to go down as one of the all-time greatest one day rides in tour history.

[Wolfpack]

That was the very definition of "No guts, no glory." To blow up on the last climb yesterday, then have the press say he's toast for the next 18 hours, and then find the will to just bury the field on another alpine stage after all that.... Just an unbelievable turnaround, especially given that the Tour is almost over. I don't think even Lance had anything like this during his run (of course, he didn't fail so spectacularly as to need a ride like this to recover with).

[Critch]

So Landis is a strong time trialer and is now the heavy favorite to win the Tour?

[MIJB#19]

So Landis is a strong time trialer and is now the heavy favorite to win the Tour?Yes, but I wouldn't say it's such a sure thing Floyd Landis will beat Oscar Pereiro and Carlos Sastre. The last time-trial of Le Tour de France always ends up being somewhat unpredictable. Even fourth placed Andreas Kloden could still be a darkhorse for the top3, and with that immediately for the final victory, as the top3 riders are within 40 seconds of each other.

Amazing turn of event. First Landis claims he knows what he's doing, giving Pereiro the yellow jersey and 30 minutes back from his loss, expecting Pereiro to lose 10 mins on him. Next he turns out being the one losing almost 10 minutes, being paid back for his own arrogance. Then, Landis attacks and all the guys behind him do the same thing, underestimating a guy with a pretty equal, Tour de France resume. Great comeback, most impresive one I've seem in the 14 Tours I watched. But I kinda see Pereiro's comeback from 30 minutes down as the more amazing achievement, especially given that Sastre's teammate Jens Voigt helped Pereiro to achieve it.

[bulletsponge]

Is Floyd Landis the American with the bad hip? if another American wins this after the Lance domination the French are going to go balistic!

[MIJB#19]

Is Floyd Landis the American with the bad hip? if another American wins this after the Lance domination the French are going to go balistic!
That's the guy. But since he isn't Lance, I doubt they go balistic. In contrast to Armstrong's calculated victories, Landis did something heroic on the bike (of course, he didn't even think about it doing it the old-fashioned way until his plan failed, but that's another story).

[thealmighty]

Wow. Just wow!!

[thealmighty]

Oh, I have been watching The Tour for 20 years but have never studied the history or anything, so I have a question for those more knowledgable than I.

Lance always got to cruise in on the last day. None of his rivals ever tried to take it (though he was often too far ahead anyway). What happens if Sastre, Landis or Pereiro (or someone) goes into the final day leading by only 12 seconds or so? Do the 2nd and 3rd place try to win or does it still become an annointing?

[cartman]

Oh, I have been watching The Tour for 20 years but have never studied the history or anything, so I have a question for those more knowledgable than I.

Lance always got to cruise in on the last day. None of his rivals ever tried to take it (though he was often too far ahead anyway). What happens if Sastre, Landis or Pereiro (or someone) goes into the final day leading by only 12 seconds or so? Do the 2nd and 3rd place try to win or does it still become an annointing?

If it is close, there will be a race to win. The last time I remember this happening was in '89, when LeMond had an absolutely perfect time trial and beat Fignon by less than 10 seconds to win.

[MIJB#19]

If it is close, there will be a race to win. The last time I remember this happening was in '89, when LeMond had an absolutely perfect time trial and beat Fignon by less than 10 seconds to win.
I think so too. Especially with the bonus seconds for the first three to finish (-20, -12 and -8), it could happen that the teams of Landis, Pereiro and Sastre will try hard to get their guy to win the last stage, or in case of having the yellow jersey, making sure there won't be a bunch sprint.

[Craptacular]

I need to find out which part of me had those thoughts and listen to it more often.

[JW]

It is fascinating to read BBC's "As it happened" commentary on today's race. You should start at the bottom and read up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/5197634.stm

My favorite comment.

1327: Landis has achieved his first goal of hauling in the back markers of the breakaway group - Padrnos, O'Grady, Sinkewitz, Tankink, Le Mevel, Gilbert, Garate, Righi, Auge and Paolini. Skinkewitz had a comedy double-take as the American cruised moved up to his right shoulder - he just couldn't believe Landis had caught them.

[wbatl1]

I thought Hincappie had two top ten finishes in the Tour.

Don't get me wrong. I was surprised to hear him touted as a favorite by OLN, though I understand their motivation to do so. I felt that Lance's last Discovery team had lost too much from the year before. It made his last Tour win really all that more impressive in my book. The team didn't ride the field into the ground as it had in prevoius years, and Hincappie was the last rider to lead out Armstrong. He, well the whole team except for Lance, even got dropped on a climb midway through a stage last year.

Landis I felt differently about, as his defection to Phonak was one of the big factors in the weakening of Discovery.

His tour finishes were almost all by account of his being the last or second to last lead-out man for Armstrong late in his career. Nobody was attacking Hincapie, and he certaintly wasn't trying to defend his place or move up. He just fell into to the spots. He certaintly is not a bad rider, as a bad rider could not have done what he did, but he did not have to defend his spot from attack or even concern himself with his GC position.

[Glengoyne]

If it is close, there will be a race to win. The last time I remember this happening was in '89, when LeMond had an absolutely perfect time trial and beat Fignon by less than 10 seconds to win.

That would be an incredible development. I'd love to see a race on the final day. I don't think they've really had anything like that on the final day since LeMond in that time trial. I think we've essentially seen parades since 90 or 91.


I'm going to have to avoid this thread until I've watched my recording, to avoid being spoiled from now on.

[Wolfpack]

If it goes to the last day, will the Champs Elysee turn into a flat velodrome for once? That'll get f'in crazy if so.

[Glengoyne]

If it goes to the last day, will the Champs Elysee turn into a flat velodrome for once? That'll get f'in crazy if so.

I botched the recording, and then had a company event tonight(rented an IMAX theatre to see Superman), so I missed all but the very end of the broadcast. I'm going to follow up with the BBC's bit and the OLN commentaries.

I was thinking about this on the drive home tonight, and really I think this move ranks up with some pretty epic tour moments. It is in league with Lemond putting 80 seconds on Fingnon in something like 13 miles.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Is Floyd Landis the American with the bad hip? if another American wins this after the Lance domination the French are going to go balistic!

Wrong.
It was nothing against Americans, it was against Armstrong himself. Armstrong was perceived as an arrogant cheater.

Landis probably gained a lot of fans yesterday, the French usually love the 'guts and glory' type guys.

[Glengoyne]

...it was against Armstrong himself. Armstrong was perceived as an arrogant cheater.

...

Well yeah! Because he was an American and Dominant the French assumed he had to be cheating!:D

I'm biased because I'm a fan, but I don't get the Lance was arrogant bit. He went out and freaking dominated.... period. He certainly wasn't overly cocky, in that he certainly had what it took to make his point in the saddle. He did act as if he was running the show, the whole show, that last couple of years. But that was on the road, in the heat of the race. If he didn't like you, you weren't getting into a break away. It was petty, but he absolutely had the ability to dictate such things. To the press, I just didn't see him as arrogant.

[MIJB#19]

Well yeah! Because he was an American and Dominant the French assumed he had to be cheating!:D

I'm biased because I'm a fan, but I don't get the Lance was arrogant bit. He went out and freaking dominated.... period. He certainly wasn't overly cocky, in that he certainly had what it took to make his point in the saddle. He did act as if he was running the show, the whole show, that last couple of years. But that was on the road, in the heat of the race. If he didn't like you, you weren't getting into a break away. It was petty, but he absolutely had the ability to dictate such things. To the press, I just didn't see him as arrogant.
It may have to do with the fact that Armstrong chanced the way riders prepare their cycling season and pick races to win. Armstrong looked self-confident in what he could do and had to do to win the Tour. Fact is that most people in the World associate self-confidence with arrogance. It's nothing French, it's human. And to be honest, the way Armstrong dominated (not the domination itself, but his calculated tactics) made watching the Tour boring. Most cycling fans like the heroic stuff Landis did yesterday (and ironically quickly forgot his arrogant words the past week and how Landis basically planned to win in the Armstrong-fashion). You also have to realize that before Armstrong there was Miguel Indurain, who had the same Tour winning strategy from 1991 to 1995. It even appears that Frenchmen Jacques Anquetil isn't so popular in his homeland, despite being five-time winner, as he is regarded the inventor of calculated winning.

[Glengoyne]

It may have to do with the fact that Armstrong chanced the way riders prepare their cycling season and pick races to win. Armstrong looked self-confident in what he could do and had to do to win the Tour. Fact is that most people in the World associate self-confidence with arrogance. It's nothing French, it's human. And to be honest, the way Armstrong dominated (not the domination itself, but his calculated tactics) made watching the Tour boring. Most cycling fans like the heroic stuff Landis did yesterday (and ironically quickly forgot his arrogant words the past week and how Landis basically planned to win in the Armstrong-fashion). You also have to realize that before Armstrong there was Miguel Indurain, who had the same Tour winning strategy from 1991 to 1995. It even appears that Frenchmen Jacques Anquetil isn't so popular in his homeland, despite being five-time winner, as he is regarded the inventor of calculated winning.

I guess the thing about calculated winning, is that you still have to get it done on the bike. You still have to answer all comers, and you can't be dropped nor afford to not answer an attack by a legitimate rival. I also find it hard to believe that some of the things that Armstrong pulled off in his string weren't considered heroic. The time trial to Alp d' huez, the resumption of the stage where he had the collision with the fan and other difficulties, his response following the stage in 2000 where he was dropped on the final(?) climb, not to mention the '99 rebound from cancer. I would think he would be somewhat of a heroic figure.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'm sorry, but every time I see this thread's title, I think "Oh, so Ullrich didn't start. He's going to come in off the bench, though, right?"

[thealmighty]

Was reading a BBC forum. Every third post or so seemed to say that Landis must have cheated to go from dead to miracle man in a day. Too bad that is the landscape of sports we are at these days.

Seems also from seeing a Landis interview that the whole Tour knew what he was going to do (tear it up) and some said to him not to do it. Anyone have more info on this story?

[Desnudo]

Enjoyed watching the race yesterday, but I have to say OLN's coverage was very confusing. Not easy to tell what all is going on and who's who. I suppose they don't cover for the layman.

[thealmighty]

Enjoyed watching the race yesterday, but I have to say OLN's coverage was very confusing. Not easy to tell what all is going on and who's who. I suppose they don't cover for the layman.

A large part of the problem , I think, is that OLN is not in control of the cameras. They never know what shot is coming, how long it will be shown, which group it is for sure, etc....

That said, while Phil is cool and all, he does seem to be wrong an awful lot.

[Critch]

Enjoyed watching the race yesterday, but I have to say OLN's coverage was very confusing. Not easy to tell what all is going on and who's who. I suppose they don't cover for the layman.

There's only so much they can squeeze in between the 40 million adverts per hour, I guess.

[MIJB#19]

I guess the thing about calculated winning, is that you still have to get it done on the bike. You still have to answer all comers, and you can't be dropped nor afford to not answer an attack by a legitimate rival.Well, I'm not argueing whether it's easier, it's probably smarter, looking at the success Indurain and Armstrong had with it, but it makes for a less exciting race. Indurain's most memorable moment was in 1995 when he attacked his competition in a meaningless stage and at a point of the day they least expected it.

I also find it hard to believe that some of the things that Armstrong pulled off in his string weren't considered heroic. The time trial to Alp d' huez, the resumption of the stage where he had the collision with the fan and other difficulties, his response following the stage in 2000 where he was dropped on the final(?) climb, not to mention the '99 rebound from cancer. I would think he would be somewhat of a heroic figure.I probably mixed up heroic for most-memorable. Still, it's widely regard to be more heroic to attack from the start than from the middle of the last climb of the day. I'm not argueing he didn't show his greatness as a rider or say he isn't a hero to a lot of people, but to most cycling fans waiting for the last climb to attack means less than being in the attack all day long. In that regard, looking back, the most memorable Armstrong moment could possibly be the 1995 stage victory. And from a neutral point of view, doing exactly as people expect you to do doesn't add to the excitement.

Again, I don't think you can really blame a self-confident sportsman for knowing what he can and what he can't do. He's a grand champion, whom usually are associated with arrogance over their desire to win as much as they can. In the end, if you're as much as an Armstrong fan as you say you are, I realize it's gonna be very hard to convince you of that.

[Glengoyne]

...

Again, I don't think you can really blame a self-confident sportsman for knowing what he can and what he can't do. He's a grand champion, whom usually are associated with arrogance over their desire to win as much as they can. In the end, if you're as much as an Armstrong fan as you say you are, I realize it's gonna be very hard to convince you of that.

Not at all. I;m not trying to be all that contrary. I understand where you are coming from. People find the style of cycling that Armstrong used to dominate the tour boring. I actually agree. The only cycling events I follow are the Tour de France, and this year, albeit loosely, the Giro d' Italia. With that in mind Landis' early attack and Lemond's Time Trial are clearly more memorable than most of Armstrong's exploits.

I just find it hard to be critical of a style that is so successful, especially when it requires skill, strategy and team work. I guess notably the 'stress the rest of the field, and attack late' strategy greatly reduces risk.

As for the arrogance. I can definitely see your point there as well.

[Craptacular]

It looks like there will not be a battle for yellow on the Champs Elysees. Floyd finished third in the time trial (behind Honchar and Kloden), but now leads by 59 seconds over Pereiro going into Paris. Kloden passed Sastre for third overall with a great TT. Theoretically, Kloden and Pereiro could fight for time bonuses, etc., to settle second, as Kloden is 30 seconds back, and could get 32 seconds of bonuses plus any gap at the end. I wonder if Floyd will break out the bubbly on the road tomorrow?

[21C]

I have to say that I've been incredibly impressed with the ride of Floyd Landis over the entire Tour. With the odd exception, he hasn't had strong support from the other riders in his team and has had to do a lot of the grunt work on his own.

I was especially impressed with the way he handled himself after the mountain stage when he lost the yellow jersey. He didn't shy away from the media or start pointing the finger at anyone else ( like his team ) but just came out and said that he had a bad ride. Even if he did nothing else in the Tour, I would have applauded him for the classy way he stood up and took any perceived blame.

But then to turn around and win the next day's stage in the Alps and follow it up with the time trial where he took the yellow jersey back, that was just freaking great. I always enjoyed the wins of Lance Armstrong but I rank this year's performance of Floyd Landis almost as highly.

---
The only thing I didn't understand was an "incident" at the finish line. Landis got off his bike and was immediately surrounded by a throng of media people and race organizers. There was a brief moment shown of him throwing an empty water bottle at someone. It looked like it was done with malice but there was no mention of it on the telecast or the couple of websites I've seen since. I'm sure it was no big deal but he looked like he was seriously shitty with someone at the time.

[thealmighty]

The only thing I didn't understand was an "incident" at the finish line. Landis got off his bike and was immediately surrounded by a throng of media people and race organizers. There was a brief moment shown of him throwing an empty water bottle at someone. It looked like it was done with malice but there was no mention of it on the telecast or the couple of websites I've seen since. I'm sure it was no big deal but he looked like he was seriously shitty with someone at the time.

I saw that as well, but have heard nothing about it.

[thealmighty]

Obviously not the favorite event of this site, with nothing several hours after his victory.

Congrats to Floyd. Well, earned.

Eight straight.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Obviously not the favorite event of this site, with nothing several hours after his victory.

Congrats to Floyd. Well, earned.

Eight straight.

Indeed. A great winner for a great race this year.

Why 8 straight though? :confused:

[caspanky]

I think he's referring to the 8 straight wins for the USA.

[MIJB#19]

I think he's referring to the 8 straight wins for the USA.One could argue this win is Swiss, for Landis was riding for a Swiss company. Or one could argue that since it's a team sport, it was also a win for Belgium, Colombia, France, Germany, Netherlands, South Africa, Spain and Switzerland.

[JeffNights]

Landis victory is a great one for sure...but damned if I dont think he has one ugly mug on him.

[thealmighty]

I think he's referring to the 8 straight wins for the USA.

That I was.

[thealmighty]

One could argue this win is Swiss, for Landis was riding for a Swiss company. Or one could argue that since it's a team sport, it was also a win for Belgium, Colombia, France, Germany, Netherlands, South Africa, Spain and Switzerland.

One could argue that every Tour de France as teams are almost never comprised of one nationality. You could cut up the World Cup into parts sometimes, for that matter, as players come from all over to play for a country, like Camoranesi, who is from Argentina I believe (or Adu maybe, eventually, etc...). One could argue all sorts of things, but an American won for the 8th time straight, that's all I meant.

[MIJB#19]

One could argue that every Tour de France as teams are almost never comprised of one nationality. You could cut up the World Cup into parts sometimes, for that matter, as players come from all over to play for a country, like Camoranesi, who is from Argentina I believe (or Adu maybe, eventually, etc...). One could argue all sorts of things, but an American won for the 8th time straight, that's all I meant.
Cycling is a team sport, in which nationality amongst the riders just isn't an important thing. It's nine riders versus about 20 other teams of nine riders. In the end, a Swiss company took the victory home.

Still, it's okay to be proud about a fellow countryman achieving something. I'd probably be proud too had a Dutchman won, but you got to seperate for whom he won, he won for the team and for himself. If you want to win for your country, go ahead, there's the world championships later on in the season.

[Solecismic]

And here we go again.

[amdaily]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/5221122.stm

[Draft Dodger]

damn, they are totally going to take his home run record away now

[Solecismic]

damn, they are totally going to take his home run record away now

If only they'd go after Amelie Mauresmo with the same fervor. She's starting to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger's younger brother.

I don't understand all the doping lingo. I assume having too much testosterone is pretty damning. Stage 17 was, after all, the one where he essentially won the race.

[CraigSca]

Nice sport.

[Maple Leafs]

Now hold on folks, let's not rush to judgement. Let's hear what Landis has to say first.

After all, what if he explains that this is simply all a mistake, that he's never taken drugs, and that somebody must be out to get him? Won't we all feel foolish then?

[ISiddiqui]

LOL... well played.

Though I guess it wasn't too much of a surprise... they are all doped up.

[MIJB#19]

Let's wait until after the second analysis, people.

[kcchief19]

If only they'd go after Amelie Mauresmo with the same fervor. She's starting to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger's younger brother.
The first time I saw a picture of here in the paper a few years ago, I had to do a double take because I was certain she was a man.

[Solecismic]

Let's wait until after the second analysis, people.

In theory, I agree. But the blame should fall entirely on the people doing the testing.

What is the point of having this system in place if they can't keep their mouths shut after the A sample tests positive? The damage is already done. Landis will forever be known as a cheat, regardless of guilt.

[amdaily]

http://tropicalboy.m6blog.m6.fr/images/medium_amelie-sur-tenis-mag.jpg

[Greyroofoo]

Lance didn't seem to be hurt too much by his "positive" test.

[kcchief19]

Let's wait until after the second analysis, people.
What fun is that?

How could you not wonder about this guy? He has an arthritic hip that will require hip replacement surgery later this year. Winning the Tour would have been comparable to Bo Jackson coming back from his hip surgery and winning the stolen base title. My first thought after hearing about his "comeback" in stage 17 was that somebody must have gotten shot up with something, legal or otherwise.

[JPhillips]

Give it a rest guys. It was just some Flaxseed oil.

[kcchief19]

In theory, I agree. But the blame should fall entirely on the people doing the testing.

What is the point of having this system in place if they can't keep their mouths shut after the A sample tests positive? The damage is already done. Landis will forever be known as a cheat, regardless of guilt.
Everything I've seen so far indicates that Tour officials had simply said an unidentified rider had a positive test. The story breaks out today because his team issued a statement saying Landis tested positive, and if the B sample is positive too he will be fired.

The fact that his team has come out clean with this suggests something very fishy to me. So far, there appears to be none of the Lance Defense being played ... I get the impression that his team seems to think he got caught.

[Fidatelo]

In theory, I agree. But the blame should fall entirely on the people doing the testing.

What is the point of having this system in place if they can't keep their mouths shut after the A sample tests positive? The damage is already done. Landis will forever be known as a cheat, regardless of guilt.

This is a 100% serious question, how often does the A sample not match the B sample? I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm actually curious if many people are actually found to be not guilty upon further review.

[cartman]

I wonder if they forgot to recalibrate the testosterone test to take into account that this year's winner has two testicles, as opposed to the winner of the previous 7 times.

:D

[oliegirl]

I wonder if they forgot to recalibrate the testosterone test to take into account that this year's winner has two testicles, as opposed to the winner of the previous 7 times.

:D


LOL! :D

[ISiddiqui]

Everything I've seen so far indicates that Tour officials had simply said an unidentified rider had a positive test. The story breaks out today because his team issued a statement saying Landis tested positive, and if the B sample is positive too he will be fired.

The fact that his team has come out clean with this suggests something very fishy to me. So far, there appears to be none of the Lance Defense being played ... I get the impression that his team seems to think he got caught.

Definately sounds like the team turned on him. Perhaps they know he'll fail the second test or he's made it clear he's leaving the team? Either way, it wasn't the officials' fault.

[Maple Leafs]

You just know that right now they're desperately flipping through pages of a medical encylopedia, looking for any drug that could theoretically cause a positive and also be appropriate for treatment of hip problems.

[kcchief19]

Sounds like a case for Dr. Nick.

[MIJB#19]

Everything I've seen so far indicates that Tour officials had simply said an unidentified rider had a positive test. The story breaks out today because his team issued a statement saying Landis tested positive, and if the B sample is positive too he will be fired.Exactly. Allthough, the wheel starting turning when other national associsations were quick to mention the rider wasn't one of them, narrowing the options down. And coincidentally Landis disappeared without notice to the show-race organizations he was going to attend the past days.

The fact that his team has come out clean with this suggests something very fishy to me. So far, there appears to be none of the Lance Defense being played ... I get the impression that his team seems to think he got caught.Take into account that Phonak has a precedent with past riders being proven guilty and it should be a bad sign about things to come.

There's also a problem in the fact that the cycling teams decided to sign a collective agreement to suspend any rider who is under investigations, so even if Landis would be found innocent, he'd still have been taken out of races. It happens 'all the time' in cycling the past two years, and, sadly, most of the time the riders are indeed founds guilty of 'cheating'.

Still, I'll live by the rule that people are innocent until proven guilty. And those who put the 'guilty' tag on someone after this first test are usually the same people who claim and try to prove that all cyclists are cheaters anyway. But you made a fair point, Jim, it's not supposed to get into the open.

[kcchief19]

You do have to love instant polls and some of the logic people come to. ESPN has jumped on the bandwagon -- 66 percent say Landis is guilty -- but here's my favorite question:

Would a positive test for Landis make you any more likely to believe allegations that Lance Armstrong used performance-enhancing drugs?
What does one necessarily have to do with the other? If I learn Barry Bonds used steroids, should I conclude that Babe Ruth used steroids too?

I guess there is a pretty strong correlation though -- 29.7 percent say yes to the above question, and 30.5 percent believe there is validity to the allegations against Armstrong. Once could infer that .8 percent believe Armstrong may have been doping but don't believe Landis getting caught means Armstrong was guilty. I think I have have found myself an extreme minority opinion!

[Maple Leafs]

This is a 100% serious question, how often does the A sample not match the B sample? I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm actually curious if many people are actually found to be not guilty upon further review.
I've read that, except in cases of tampering/mishandling, there have been zero instances where the B sample turned out clean after a dirty A.

[Fidatelo]

I've read that, except in cases of tampering/mishandling, there have been zero instances where the B sample turned out clean after a dirty A.
Right but aren't those the exceptions that the B sample exists to find? I guess I'm wondering how often results are tampered/mishandled.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

If it's backed up with the B sample, he get what he deserves. And I have no problem with his team publicizing the test. He rides for them, gets paid by them, his teammates helped him win, and it will affect them with negative PR. They have every right to go public with it if they want.

[corbes]

What happens to the Tour de France if the allegations are true?

[MIJB#19]

What happens to the Tour de France if the allegations are true?
Landis will be disqualified, meaning all his results from day 1 of this Tour will be nullified and all riders behind him will move a spot up.

[Desnudo]

Sounds like a case for Dr. Nick.

And he'll throw in a free juice loosener.

[Desnudo]

In all seriousness, I would be shocked if any of the top riders weren't cheating in some way. Unlucky for Landis to get caught if this is true.

[Anthony]

what a joke of a sport. why do any of these guys even bother trying to cheat?

i'm starting to think Lance used some substances more and more. his whole premise - coming back from the brink of death to be bigger, stronger, faster - highly doubtable.

[MIJB#19]

i'm starting to think Lance used some substances more and more. his whole premise - coming back from the brink of death to be bigger, stronger, faster - highly doubtable.
He was tested for substances about every other day during seven victorious editions of the Tour de France. if anybody was using and would have been caught, it would have to be Armstrong.

[Samdari]

He was tested for substances about every other day during seven editions of the Tour de France. if anybody was using and would have been caught using substances they test for, it would have to be Armstrong.

Sorry, but its a dirty sport.

The only way you can best a field of 100+ chemically enhanced athletes 7 years straight is to be chemically enhanced yourself.

[Maple Leafs]

He was tested for substances about every other day during seven victorious editions of the Tour de France. if anybody was using and would have been caught, it would have to be Armstrong.
This argument assumes that you believe that current-day testing is likely to catch even a decent percentage of current-day cheaters.

Barry Bonds never failed a test. Marion Jones never failed a test. Ben Johnson was perhaps the most-doped athelete of all time, to the point that his eyes turned orange. He was passing tests for years until he got careless and failed one.

Sorry, "he never failed a test" isn't enough these days. Sad, and unfair to the clean atheletes, but still true.

[kcchief19]

This argument assumes that you believe that current-day testing is likely to catch even a decent percentage of current-day cheaters.

Barry Bonds never failed a test. Marion Jones never failed a test. Ben Johnson was perhaps the most-doped athelete of all time, to the point that his eyes turned orange. He was passing tests for years until he got careless and failed one.

Sorry, "he never failed a test" isn't enough these days. Sad, and unfair to the clean atheletes, but still true.
Precisley. This is the "critical mass" problem with my earlier rant about concluding that Armstrong was juiced simply because Landis was juiced. I don't think that comparison is apt.

But if the comparison is the four guys who finished behind Armstrong and almost all of his main competitors tested positive, there Armstrong must be juiced, then I see the point. There is a "critical mass" greater than just one. I do find it hard to believe that with so many people cheating, one guy who wasn't cheating could so thoroughly dominate the competition.

[Maple Leafs]

I do find it hard to believe that with so many people cheating, one guy who wasn't cheating could so thoroughly dominate the competition.
In a previous thread, I think I compared Lance Armstrong to a virtual unknown showing up in baseball in 2002 and hitting 100 HRs in a season. It's unfortunate, but the sheer level of success alone adds up to a whole lot of circumstantial evidence.

[Anthony]

Precisley. This is the "critical mass" problem with my earlier rant about concluding that Armstrong was juiced simply because Landis was juiced. I don't think that comparison is apt.

But if the comparison is the four guys who finished behind Armstrong and almost all of his main competitors tested positive, there Armstrong must be juiced, then I see the point. There is a "critical mass" greater than just one. I do find it hard to believe that with so many people cheating, one guy who wasn't cheating could so thoroughly dominate the competition.

unless of course, he was the Bionic Man and they didn't test for robotics in his system.

[MIJB#19]

Sorry, but its a dirty sport.

The only way you can best a field of 100+ chemically enhanced athletes 7 years straight is to be chemically enhanced yourself.
Because of their reputation, people in cycling have gone overboard in testing and they are not hiding a positive-tested big name away from the public. Give me one other sport where every person active in the race is lifted from his bed at 5 am to 'donate' blood for testing purpose, and then again at 8 pm after they have done their job.

I'm not naive, when all the others say: you're stupid when you get caught, that's the smoke that shows where the fire is. But I'm born and raised in a world that proclaims innocent until proven guilty, yet sometimes, so people are stamped with a tag they get for what they do well, not for what they've done wrong.

[MIJB#19]

In a previous thread, I think I compared Lance Armstrong to a virtual unknown showing up in baseball in 2002 and hitting 100 HRs in a season. It's unfortunate, but the sheer level of success alone adds up to a whole lot of circumstantial evidence.
That doesn't make sense at all. Lance Armstrong was one of the best riders before he was taken out of competition recovering from cancer. A more fitting example is like a Michael Vick who starts playing running back and turns out being good at that too.

[Maple Leafs]

That doesn't make sense at all. Lance Armstrong was one of the best riders before he was taken out of competition recovering from cancer. A more fitting example is like a Michael Vick who starts playing running back and turns out being good at that too.
"Virtual unknown" was pretty clumsy. Let's say a good player who had never won a HR title. Beyond that I don't think it's an unfair comparison.

[ZXTT]

In a previous thread, I think I compared Lance Armstrong to a virtual unknown showing up in baseball in 2002 and hitting 100 HRs in a season. It's unfortunate, but the sheer level of success alone adds up to a whole lot of circumstantial evidence.

I don't know if he cheated or not, but he'd already won Tour de France stages, been been ranked #1 and won the World Cycling Championship before he was diagnosed with cancer. It appeared that he was improving, before things were derailed, and he certainly wasn't an unknown. I'd heard of him pre-cancer and I don't even follow cycling, as such.

[thealmighty]

A guy (supposedly their cycling expert) on ESPN radio said that Landis testosterone levels were below normal. He got caught for having an imbalance of illegal proportions in the two types of testosterone tested for. I have no idea what that infers, but that's what they said. Anyone else hear this or know about what it signifies?

(Pardon if this has been heard already.)

[MIJB#19]

A guy (supposedly their cycling expert) on ESPN radio said that Landis testosterone levels were below normal. He got caught for having an imbalance of illegal proportions in the two types of testosterone tested for. I have no idea what that infers, but that's what they said. Anyone else hear this or know about what it signifies?

(Pardon if this has been heard already.)Taken from the official statement from the team website:
The Phonak Cycling Team was notified yesterday by the UCI of an unusual level of Testosteron/Epitestosteron ratio in the test made on Floyd Landis after stage 17 of the Tour de France.

Now this is completely hypothetical, but it could be that what they found were traces of a masking device. Asuming the drug involved is testosteron, an overdose of epitestosteron could mask the use of the former, but could also result in an unusual ratio.

[kcchief19]

In a previous thread, I think I compared Lance Armstrong to a virtual unknown showing up in baseball in 2002 and hitting 100 HRs in a season. It's unfortunate, but the sheer level of success alone adds up to a whole lot of circumstantial evidence.
I'm kind of with MIJB with this one. It's not like Armstrong came out of nowhere. He was an excellent cyclist before he had cancer. He just happened to have cancer and come back a better athlete and cyclist than he was before cancer. That's very rare.

I think a more apt comparison would be a former MVP who was 36 years old and seemingly past his prime showing up in 2001 and winning four straight MVP awards despite never testing positive for performance enhancers. Wait a minute ...

[AlexB]

Landis has said he was taking hormones for a thyroid problem, but in no way has cheated...

[MIJB#19]

"Virtual unknown" was pretty clumsy. Let's say a good player who had never won a HR title. Beyond that I don't think it's an unfair comparison.I still disagree, Armstrong was touted as a future multiple Tour winner before the cancer. And back in those days (1994-1996) when people said that, the competition for such statements was really slim.

I'm really not deep enough into baseball to make a good example through that sport, but if you want to stick with the 100 HR example, I guess that he was a guy who hit 40+ HR in his rookie season and had several multiple HR games in the following seasons.

[QuikSand]

You just know that right now they're desperately flipping through pages of a medical encylopedia, looking for any drug that could theoretically cause a positive and also be appropriate for treatment of hip problems.

You ever do a jigsaw puzzle... and get a piece that looks like it will fit, but isn't quite perfect, and then you go through a little process of jiggling and pushing in an atempt to get the not-quite-perfect piece to fit...?

Landis has said he was taking hormones for a thyroid problem, but in no way has cheated...

Yeah, me too.

[cartman]

Yeah, me too.

You had a testosterone patch on your nutsack while playing the WSOP event? Well, that certainly puts things in a whole new light.

:D

[MIJB#19]

You had a testosterone patch on your nutsack while playing the WSOP event? Well, that certainly puts things in a whole new light.

:D
Didn't you read the report? They drank a lot of beer!

[amdaily]

I tested Floyd's whisky theory today. Had exactly 1 shot before bed, went cycling this morning and beat yesterdays time by 6 minutes and some odd seconds :cool:

[Glengoyne]

I believed Landis' ride in stage 17 was the stuff of legend. The next day I saw an interview with Levi Leipheimer. A paraphrase of his statement was "I don't know how Floyd recovered. Certainly none of the rest of us had. It was .... incredible" I sensed then that the other riders were viewing the effort skeptically, to say the least.

I'm curious to learn more about the specifics of the test, though honestly a failure is a failure.

My initial response to Leipheimer's remark was that Landis would have to be crazy to cheat and go for the stage win. All stage winners are automatically tested. I guess he was confident that he'd slip under the radar...either that or maybe he was just abstained from sex the night before for the first time in months.

[kcchief19]

Well this doesn't help ... so far Landis has come up with a flurry of possible reasons for the positive test:

- medicine for his thyroid condition
- cortisone shot for his degenerative vascular necrosis hip condition
- the bottle of Jack Daniels he had the night before stage 17
- and -- my personal favorite -- naturally high testosterone levels that did not show up in any previous tests

Brilliant. While initialing proclaiming that the B sample would clear him, he is now saying that the B sample will be positive as well, but he didn't cheat.

Another thing I like is that his defenders are saying that the positive testosterone test doesn't make any sense because it has nothing to do with endurance or strength, just recovery. Yet all the people who were flabbergasted at his comeback in stage 17 were amazed at how he was able to "recover" and perform so well when it looked like he was down and out the day before.

Sometimes people don't think their stories all the way to the end.

[Maple Leafs]

Reports say he's now blaming Miguel Tejeda.

[Eaglesfan27]

It was just some B12.

[hoopsguy]

A guy (supposedly their cycling expert) on ESPN radio said that Landis testosterone levels were below normal. He got caught for having an imbalance of illegal proportions in the two types of testosterone tested for. I have no idea what that infers, but that's what they said. Anyone else hear this or know about what it signifies?

Had not seen anyone reply to this, but I heard the same thing today on ESPN Radio.

What the interview subject was saying is that the testosterone level was normal, but the epi level was way low - thus the skewed ratio. And that this particular test is pretty dubious, has been challenged multiple times, and has never held up when challenged. I haven't heard anything about a masking agent producing lower levels of epitestosterone in any of the commentary up to this point.

I don't know whether this guy is a cheat or not, but if this test is not considered to be a good one based on previous challenges, then why do they keep rolling it out to these athletes?

[dacman]

I just love how a day after most media sources know better, they still say he tested positive for a "high level of testosterone" when that is factually incorrect. Far be it from the media to report the facts. /end rant

Anyway, the test can show doping because if you have a high level of testosterone, but a normal level of epi, you almost certainly doped. If your body does for some reason pump out extra testosterone, a higher level of epi is also to be expected (or so I've heard). They basically use the test to try to weed out those testees (**snicker**) who naturally have a high testosterone level.

[Glengoyne]

Had not seen anyone reply to this, but I heard the same thing today on ESPN Radio.

What the interview subject was saying is that the testosterone level was normal, but the epi level was way low - thus the skewed ratio. And that this particular test is pretty dubious, has been challenged multiple times, and has never held up when challenged. I haven't heard anything about a masking agent producing lower levels of epitestosterone in any of the commentary up to this point.

I don't know whether this guy is a cheat or not, but if this test is not considered to be a good one based on previous challenges, then why do they keep rolling it out to these athletes?

I too have heard that it was indeed the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone that was flagged. I haven't heard which was high, and which was low. Nor have I heard about how absolutely damning this test is. Other than the way in which all positive tests are damning.

I was in a restaurant yesterday, and saw Greg Lemond on ESPN extensively. I don't know what Greg was saying, but I imagine he was dancing on Floyd's grave.

[kcchief19]

I cannot find any source that corroborates the "below normal" level of epitestosterone. Everything I've seen suggests that that there was a normal level of epitestosterone and an above normal level of testosterone that exceeded the allowed 4:1 ratio.

The more you look at it, actually the more guilty Landis looks. If he did indeed have a naturally occurring above normal leve lf testosterone, he certainly would have tested positive for that in the past. And as dacman said, having a high level of tesosterone will not cause you to test positive; you can take testosterone and synthetic epitestosterone that will give you the benefits of high testosterone while mainting a normal 1:1 ratio. It appears as though it's a fairly routine thing to do.

Initial urine samples are not tested for synthetic epitestosterone, but this B sample supposedly will be. If that test is positive, you can bet he's guilty as hell. If the test is negative, we can conclude that either his high level of testosterone argument is true, or he doped and forgot to take the masking agent.

[kcchief19]

I was in a restaurant yesterday, and saw Greg Lemond on ESPN extensively. I don't know what Greg was saying, but I imagine he was dancing on Floyd's grave.
Yep.
"I'm devastated and extremely disapointed," LeMond told AFP. "I can't imagine the disappointment for Floyd and his family. I really did believe Floyd was clean. The problem is the sport is corrupt and it corrupts everybody. I still believe it was one of the cleanest Tours ever. But is it 100-percent clean? No. You will always find riders who transgress the laws. I really did believe Floyd was not among them, that he was clean. Hopefully, he will be able to step up and tell the truth. But I'm encouraged by the UCI, the Tour organisers and labs who together are doing a great job against doping."

[Maple Leafs]

So just so we're all on the same page... we all agree that "I never failed a test" is an iron-clad defense, but even when atheletes fail drug tests, that's still not going to be enough for us? We're just going to decide the tests are faulty and the athelete must still be clean, as long as they say so?

Well, except for Barry Bonds and funny looking Europeans. Everyone else is OK?

[Glengoyne]

So just so we're all on the same page... we all agree that "I never failed a test" is an iron-clad defense, but even when atheletes fail drug tests, that's still not going to be enough for us? We're just going to decide the tests are faulty and the athelete must still be clean, as long as they say so?

Well, except for Barry Bonds and funny looking Europeans. Everyone else is OK?

Well I don't know about Iron clad, but I'm willing to wait before piling further condemnation on the guy until all of the results are in.

Sample B will likely show what sample A did. That is it will simply confirm the initial test. The deal is that the first test, the one indicating an abnormal ration of testosterone and epitestosterone, as I understand it, isn't entirely damning in itself. It essentially kickstarts an investigation. Namely, a second test that will determine if pharmaceutical testosterone compounds are present. If the samples contain man-made hormones, then his goose is cooked. If not, then he may have a legitimate case for appeal. Although the appeal road might also be tough for him because while the test can yield false positives, it usually only does so in people with a history of test yielding "unusual" T/E ratios.

[kcchief19]

The New York Times is reporting that the results are in ... and the test for synthetic testosterone is positive.

He's boned.

[miami_fan]

The New York Times is reporting that the results are in ... and the test for synthetic testosterone is positive.

He's boned.

Maybe he got a bad massage too.:rolleyes:

[Eaglesfan27]

The New York Times is reporting that the results are in ... and the test for synthetic testosterone is positive.

He's boned.

It sucks, but at the same time I'm sort of glad the test is conclusive rather than an ambiguous ratio. I wonder what his excuse will be now.

[Buccaneer]

It sucks, but at the same time I'm sort of glad the test is conclusive rather than an ambiguous ratio. I wonder what his excuse will be now.

Well, let's see. We can rule out the trainer rubbing clear. They've done the pills excuse. He's white so that's out. As mentioned, the massuer angle has been done. He can't blame on the heat. Blaming it on the Jews has been taken. What's left? I know, blame it on the Frenchies.

[SirFozzie]

Holy shit.

Testing of Floyd Landis' urine by a French antidoping lab reportedly detected synthetic testosterone. Citing a person at the International Cycling Union with knowledge of the result, The New York Times reported Monday that some of the hormone in the "A" sample is from an external source.

Either someone else had Landis's sample spiked, or he did juice and tried to cover it up. The word for the A sample is TAINTED, ie, foreign stuff was added to it.

[Logan]

See, that's how I read the ESPN front page blurb too. But then I read the whole article and it made it seem that the "foreign substance" is something that the body doesn't produce naturally...ie a steroid of some sort.

But yeah, I'm confused.

[Maple Leafs]

Yellow syrup in the water battle?

[Glengoyne]

Floyd, Floyd, Floyd

[ISiddiqui]

See, that's how I read the ESPN front page blurb too. But then I read the whole article and it made it seem that the "foreign substance" is something that the body doesn't produce naturally...ie a steroid of some sort.

But yeah, I'm confused.

ESPN was definately trying to confuse on its front page (they have since changed it). Basically, they are citing the NY Times report saying that Landis' sample had synthetic testosterone, meaning his claims of natural testosterone elevation was BS. Sample being 'tainted' meaning that it was positive for synthetic drugs.

External source meaning... a synthetic substance. Not natural elevation.

[kcchief19]

The wire copy reports I see all say the test showed "more than twice" the legal limit of a 4:1 ratio. ESPN indicated this morning that the ratio was 11:1. I don't see how he explains his way out of this.

[QuikSand]

I don't see how he explains his way out of this.

There is, apparently a handbook for this sort of thing. You get caught cheating, even caught red-handed, and you slip into a fairly unintelligibel stream of denials... I didn't do anyting... maybe it was a bad lab test... might have been some other stuff i took for a legit reason... who knows... I'm innocent.

At the end of that babbling, it turns out that a pretty substantial number of people will actualy believe you. I know it sounds absurd... but honestly, that seems to be how this works. It's kinda like rubbing sticks to make fire -- you'd never believe it coudl be done, but I'll be damned, it actually is effective sometimes.

No doubt there will be people who quickly stand up for the "botched test" theory, or the "someone's out to get the American" theory, or something else equally absurd, when there's a perfectly simple and straightforward explanation for all this right in front of them.

[Ryan S]

The BBC website is reporting that the results will not be available until Saturday, which makes me wonder if the leaked reports are accurate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/5233476.stm

[ISiddiqui]

IIRC, the leaked reports are on the 'A' sample.

[kcchief19]

Yes, the reports are based on the A sample. Once the testosterone test came up abnormal, it was retested for synthetic sterorids.

The B sample is being tested now and the results are supposed to be due by Saturday. If that comes up negative, it will be a stunner, especially to Landis who has already said he expects it to be positive due to his natural potency.

[rkmsuf]

especially to Landis who has already said he expects it to be positive due to his natural potency.

lol

[Maple Leafs]

There is, apparently a handbook for this sort of thing. You get caught cheating, even caught red-handed, and you slip into a fairly unintelligibel stream of denials... I didn't do anyting... maybe it was a bad lab test... might have been some other stuff i took for a legit reason... who knows... I'm innocent.
Don't forget "There's an explanation, but I can't tell you what it is out of respect for the ongoing investigation".

("Aw, what a nice guy, he respects the judicial process so much he's willing to go down in flames for it. We could all learn something from this display of integrity.")

[cartman]

Jack Daniels=Helluva drug

[cartman]

Dola, maybe he got a vitamin B-12 injection from Miguel Tejada.

[rkmsuf]

I could care less about the drug thing but I have one small request if they are going to televise this race. Please have them refrain from wearing a uniform that details their nutsack and weiner. We have the technology to prevent this.

[Fidatelo]

If we let them take more steroids they might get going so fast that they would just naturally blur on the screen, making nutsack hiding technology unnecessary.

[HomerSimpson]

I think he used Balco's massage therapist. :)

[Logan]

ESPN was definately trying to confuse on its front page (they have since changed it). Basically, they are citing the NY Times report saying that Landis' sample had synthetic testosterone, meaning his claims of natural testosterone elevation was BS. Sample being 'tainted' meaning that it was positive for synthetic drugs.

External source meaning... a synthetic substance. Not natural elevation.

I can't believe I actually expected responsible journalism from ESPN. :)

[kcchief19]

I'm going to throw this out and see if sticks. Am I the only one who would GAIN respect for Landis in this situation if he simply come out admitted it? Doesn't need to be a press conference -- just a TV journalist of your choice. Just apologize and say, "My back was against the wall. My dream was coming to an end, I realized I didn't have anything left and I made a bad choice."

Public relations aside, to me it's just the right thing to do. But taking PR into consideration, I think the problem is that sports agents are about 15 years behind the curve in managing a PR crisis. They continue to use deny/deny/deny when it just doesn't work. You get the story out first and get it out on your terms.

[ISiddiqui]

No, you probably wouldn't be. I think a very few people believe that anyone of the leaders at the Tour is clean, so if he admitted it, people may respect him more.

[Maple Leafs]

They continue to use deny/deny/deny when it just doesn't work.
It does work. That's the problem.

[miami_fan]

I'm going to throw this out and see if sticks. Am I the only one who would GAIN respect for Landis in this situation if he simply come out admitted it? Doesn't need to be a press conference -- just a TV journalist of your choice. Just apologize and say, "My back was against the wall. My dream was coming to an end, I realized I didn't have anything left and I made a bad choice."

Public relations aside, to me it's just the right thing to do. But taking PR into consideration, I think the problem is that sports agents are about 15 years behind the curve in managing a PR crisis. They continue to use deny/deny/deny when it just doesn't work. You get the story out first and get it out on your terms.

No, not at this point. He has already denied/denied/denied. He has spent the last week saying he did not use anything, it was all natural blah blah blah. Now if he came out immediately after the test came back positive and said something similar to what you are saying that would be different. I don't know if I would go as far as saying he would gain my respect, but I would definitely appreciate his honesty.

[TroyF]

I'm going to throw this out and see if sticks. Am I the only one who would GAIN respect for Landis in this situation if he simply come out admitted it? Doesn't need to be a press conference -- just a TV journalist of your choice. Just apologize and say, "My back was against the wall. My dream was coming to an end, I realized I didn't have anything left and I made a bad choice."

Public relations aside, to me it's just the right thing to do. But taking PR into consideration, I think the problem is that sports agents are about 15 years behind the curve in managing a PR crisis. They continue to use deny/deny/deny when it just doesn't work. You get the story out first and get it out on your terms.

See, what you say may save him in the court of public opinion, but it wipes out any prayer he has of keeping the tour win or racing again for two years.

At this point, he still has some outs. Maybe the B sample will get corrupted somehow. Maybe some other leagal issue will allow him to escape with the victory in tact.

Would I have more respect for him? Right now it wouldn't be much different than the way I currently feel. He should lose the title, be suspended and he should be slapped about 200 times for being an idiot. Down the line, as the years pass, time and his own actions could sway me to support him. If ten years down the road he's still speaking to kids about tough choices, drugs and selling your soul. . . I'll have much more respect for him.

He admits it and then goes into hiding for two decades, I won't gain much respect at all from him.

[kcchief19]

We have a new defense: The Dehydration Sydrome!

"Maybe a combination of dehydration, maximum effort," said Jose Maria Buxeda, after testing began Thursday on the cyclist's backup doping sample.

Too bad, the experts say:
"In 25 years of experience of testing testosterone ... such a huge increase in the level of testosterone cannot be accepted to come from any natural factors," said Prof. Christiane Ayotte, director of Montreal's anti-doping laboratory."If dehydration was the case, then marathon runners would be testing positive all the time. Tennis players would be testing positive all the time. Dehydration is a medical condition that requires hospitalization. It has been invoked in the past, but not one case -- to my knowledge -- has been successful in this argument."
It's Maximum Cycling, baby!

[kcchief19]

See, what you say may save him in the court of public opinion, but it wipes out any prayer he has of keeping the tour win or racing again for two years.
But that's precisely why -- especially in this case -- he should persue this. Landis isn't going to be racing anytime soon, both with the cloud and the hip hanging over his head. Right now, he is labeled a cheater and will forever carry the cheater label.

But the public is very forgiving with people -- unless they are lied to. If he came clean, I have no doubt that in a matter of time he'd have people on his side saying he made a mistake and deserves a second chance for confronting his demons and telling the truth. Now, everybody wants to tar and feather him.

But this requires that the athlete admit -- both to himself and to the public -- he cheated. I think in too many of these cases the athlete convinces himself that it's OK to cheat, maybe because everybody else is too.

[Buccaneer]

Admittedly I didn't think of that excuse, even though it's obvious. Ok, we can add Dehydration. What would be next one?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

He ate a lot of beef steak the night before from a cow fed with growth hormone & testosterone.

[thealmighty]

He was sure it was KY Jelly but apparently some diabolical sex-shop owner switched it for the cream.

P.S.- his wife did not complain. How was he to know.

[kcchief19]

I keep waiting for him to say that Lance Armstrong spiked his Gatorade -- you know, kind of a catchall.

[Critch]

The French framed him.

[AlexB]

B Test confirmed positive.

[HomerSimpson]

B Test confirmed positive.
LOL I thought baseball was bad.

Am I reading the reports correct. After testing positive for steroids in sample A last week, and another for positive test for steroids in sample B this week, the International Bike Committee(?) are now going to have to take Floyd Landis to court to try and have him removed as the 2006 Tour de France winner???

[fantastic flying froggies]

Actually no, the UCI (International Cyclist Union) has requested that the US cycling federation open a disciplinary procedure against Landis. That's the usual procedure apparently.

Oh, and Floyd has also been fired from his team Phonak.

[kcchief19]

The Floyd Landis Public Relations Spin Tour officially took off today. I'm trying to avoid waking up this morning and Mrs. kcchief19 turns on the Today show, which had Floyd and his wife on live via satellite. Five minutes later, she flips over to Good Morning America and Robin Roberts is doing the same thing. Impressive saturation.

The revisionist history going on was impressive. Floyd was blaming the ICU for leaking his positive test result, when everything I saw indicated that Phonak was the one who first revealed the test result. He also claimed that he had nothing to do with some of the explanations his camp was putting forward, specificially saying he had nothing to do with the whiskey/beer defense and dehydration/maximum effort defense. Which I guess means the "Manly" defense is pure Landis.

He also tried to explain that the carbon isotope test is a "subjective" test and is not conclusive. He also claimed that the first test that showed the 11:1 ratio showed "natural" testosterone and that it was the "subjective" carbon isotope test that showed otherwise.

I came away with the impression that either Floyd has no idea what he is talking about, that he has told so many lies that he can't keep up with them or some combination of both.

[Maple Leafs]

Nice to see he's using the Armstrong/Bonds defence of "Hey, forget what the test results/testimony actually said, you should never have heard about it in the first place!"

[QuikSand]

The most convincing element of the "no, I'm clean" spin is usually the argument about passed tests. See also Armstrong, Lance and any number of others in similar situations (those either failing a test or being accued of doping). The whole argument relies on us, the ever-gullible public, believing the idea that tests catch cheaters. So, the accused athlete goes on record counting all the tests that failed to show a problem, and uses that as the central exhibit in the "I'm clean" defense. Landis is doing exactly this now, with a specific new spin -- since he tested negative in several earlier tests and then positive -- he's asking us to draw the conclusion that he was clean right up until that one stage, leading to a preposterous suggestion.

The weak underpinning beneath all this, however, is the entire belief in testing as being that effective. If, like many of us, you believe that the drug-makers are smarter, richer, and more motivated than the test-makers... and that drug users are able to pass tests regularly... then this whole argument won't hold water at all. It will, as usual, convince many (especially those who come in already sympathetic to the athlete) that he's really okay... but it's a logical argument built entirely upon a very suspect premise.


In my mind, the single most likely situation that explains everything is this: Landis is a cheater, just like nearly everyone in his sport. The successful cheaters routinely use some sort of tricky chemical or masking agent that allows them to usually pass tests. From time to time, the dope-masking stuff fails to do its job, and they get caught as their true doping nature is revealed. That's what heppened here. Maybe he did something different this particular night, maybe it really was (in a perverse twist on the various defensxes that have been offered up) the whiskey or the dehydration that caused the dope-mask to fail this time... but for whatever reason, he was exposed by a failed test for the doper that he is. Luckily for the guy who finished in second place, his dope-masking worked properly, and he will be awarded the title.

[HomerSimpson]

How do they explain his other negative tests? He tested negative for steroids the stage before and the stage after. That would mean we are talking about a synthetic testosterone that clears the body in under 48 hours!!!


I wonder how many Profesional Athletes are paying attention to this quick turnaround? Shoot up on Sunday and test clean on Tuesday. Unlike the Olympics or Cycling most American Sports do not test their players immediately after the game.

[MIJB#19]

In my mind, the single most likely situation that explains everything is this: Landis is a cheater, just like nearly everyone in his sport. The successful cheaters routinely use some sort of tricky chemical or masking agent that allows them to usually pass tests. From time to time, the dope-masking stuff fails to do its job, and they get caught as their true doping nature is revealed. That's what heppened here. Maybe he did something different this particular night, maybe it really was (in a perverse twist on the various defensxes that have been offered up) the whiskey or the dehydration that caused the dope-mask to fail this time... but for whatever reason, he was exposed by a failed test for the doper that he is. Luckily for the guy who finished in second place, his dope-masking worked properly, and he will be awarded the title.Do you also think that simply because Barry Bonds was using 'stuff' to hit homeruns, that every man who hits a homerun has to be drugged? It's this kind of arguments I won't buy, and thus, I don't believe that because Landis was 'cheating' everybody racing against him was cheating. Mister Landis acted like a first class a-hole ("I will gain 10 minutes on [number two]") and that to me made him a much more suspect guy than others.

[Pumpy Tudors]

So did Ullrich come off the bench or what?

[kcchief19]

Do you also think that simply because Barry Bonds was using 'stuff' to hit homeruns, that every man who hits a homerun has to be drugged? It's this kind of arguments I won't buy, and thus, I don't believe that because Landis was 'cheating' everybody racing against him was cheating. Mister Landis acted like a first class a-hole ("I will gain 10 minutes on [number two]") and that to me made him a much more suspect guy than others.
Not to speak for Quik, but in my case and I think mainly on this side of the pond, Landis testing positive doesn't mean that every cyclist is cheating -- but the fact that 48 cyclists were caught in a sting and four of the top five finishers in last year's race were barred from competiting this year is indicating that "everybody" is cheating. And by "everybody," I mean any cyclist who had a chance to win. The guy who came in last might have been clean. But it seems unlikely given how many people in cycling have been cheating that anyone could compete without cheating.

Except for Lance Armstrong. Completely clean, nothing to see here. So just leave him out of this.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Perhaps the Tour de France would be a more interesting sporting event if they just televised the results of the drug tests. That seems to be where the action lies and, with clever editing, I am sure you could get the whole thing down to a nice 2 hour "TV event" and spruce it up a little bit. You could have that "Weakest Link" lady host it. I doubt she's up to much.

It'd save the folks at OLN/Versus plenty of airtime to show more rodeos, fishing shows, old hockey games, and old episodes of "Survivor"

[thealmighty]

The way I read some of the testimony in the recent $5 million Lance Lawsuit, Floyd was one of the few that were clean on Postal. It pissed him off so much (among other things) that he left.

So, did he decide that to be able to compete for the top prize in his sport with a bunch of riders who were doping, he had to start also?

Just wonderin'.

[MIJB#19]

Not to speak for Quik, but in my case and I think mainly on this side of the pond, Landis testing positive doesn't mean that every cyclist is cheating -- but the fact that 48 cyclists were caught in a sting and four of the top five finishers in last year's race were barred from competiting this year is indicating that "everybody" is cheating. And by "everybody," I mean any cyclist who had a chance to win. The guy who came in last might have been clean. But it seems unlikely given how many people in cycling have been cheating that anyone could compete without cheating.

Except for Lance Armstrong. Completely clean, nothing to see here. So just leave him out of this.I guess it's the same over here. After Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa were caught cheating, people went like: duh, it's baseball, they're all on steroids. Same story with (american) football. And same story with cycling since, well, I guess the 1980s. And soccer players are, of course, all clean, despite all those nandrolon suspensions. It's just that I don't like those 'easy' conclusions without evidence (I'm probably too naive...) It's the same sentiment that makes people think all muslims are terrorists, etc.

Fact is that Floyd Landis has gone to my 'list' of people I'll have a hard time believing what they say ever again, while other cyclists (still?) never proven to be cheating are on my (and should be on anybody's) asterix-free 'list'.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Quik has it right. I would slightly modify his statement to "a lot of competitors" instead of "everybody" but everything else is what I believe. That was what Balco was all about. Coming up with new methods to mask doping and passing tests (different drugs, schedules, etc.). This easily explains how cheaters pass so many tests but then finally get caught.

As a final note, I just saw Landis' press conference statement for the first time. How poor was that? He starts out "I have never been involved in," then has to pause and look down at his written statement, then looks back up and says "doping process." I mean the guy can't even keep straight what he's supposed to say. If you're clean, you should have no problem coming out and saying it without a prepared statement. Something like, "I have never taken steroids, period.":D

[Glengoyne]

How do they explain his other negative tests? He tested negative for steroids the stage before and the stage after. That would mean we are talking about a synthetic testosterone that clears the body in under 48 hours!!!


I wonder how many Profesional Athletes are paying attention to this quick turnaround? Shoot up on Sunday and test clean on Tuesday. Unlike the Olympics or Cycling most American Sports do not test their players immediately after the game.

It isn't really a quick turn around that caused this phenomenon. The battery of tests after a stage, includes a test that detects the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in a cyclist's blood. That is the initial test that Landis failed. That battery of tests doesn't test for natural versus synthetic testosterone. The second test detects synthetic hormones. The initial T/E ratio test essentially detected that Floyd had used some sort of masking agent to depress the amount of testosterone registering on the test. They followed up and discovered why he needed the masking agent.

In other words it wasn't that the tests before and after were clean, it was that the masking agents worked properly, so the tests weren't followed up on to detect synthetic testosterone. I'm thinking they will, now that these tests came in positive, but I'm not certain.

I guess it is possible that Floyd was clean up until the stage he tested positive for. In fact, I'm sort of hoping that he knew he needed to do something spectacular, and made a desperate decision. That is the only way he can come away from this with any sort of dignity remaining, well that and if he comes clean with that story.

This really does change my opinion about the whole "testing" issue. I'm coming around to QS's position, that it is somewhat folly to believe that the tests are genuinely effective.

[MIJB#19]

Oh, it's is starting to sound more and more plausible that 'everybody' is involved. Other cyclists don't talk about cheaters and non-cheaters, they talk about the caught guys being stupid and they talk vaguely about how this could happen. And they all say cycling can be done without 'stuff'. And the guy getting caught was really stupid.

But at the same time, if you go start assuming 'everybody' is involved, then you get paranoid from needning to figuring who you can trust and who you can't anymore. Politicians one by one get stuck in their own nets of lies, sports people are one by one getting caught 'cheating'. What role models are left behind? Pop idols and their 'messed up' music world? Writers, who 'all' make up stories without checking facts on what they write about? The movie business, where 'everybody' sleeps with 'everybody'?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I look in the mirror for my role models.

[kcchief19]

Our boy Floyd was on Leno last night as part of his defensive team's public relations tour. Some of the gems:

He offered still another new theory: "Now there's also the possibility, and it's an argument that has been used by other people. At this point, I don't know if it's somehow or some way I ingested something that caused the tests to be that way."
I love this. "Perhaps" he ingested "something" that caused the positive test. What he's trying to imply is that he may have ingested "something" that caused the positive test that was a banned substance -- like he had a poppy seed muffin for breakfast and the opium caused a positive synthetic testosterone test. He can't admit to "accidentally" ingesting testosterone because then he'd still be screwed. Landis went on to repeat some possibilities he and his defense team had floated earlier, that there was some type of natural occurrence in his body that caused the positive tests. He added, "And I'm beginning to wonder about this myself after the way the situation's been handled, is that after the (sample) leaves my hands ... after I give them the sample, I don't know where it goes."

1. Thyroid medication
2. Cortisone shot for degenerative hip condition
3. Whiskey/beer
4. Natural manliness
5. Maximum effort/dehydration
6. Ingested "something"
7. Tampering

Have I missed anything?

[bulletsponge]

he did ingest something.... Testosterone!

[QuikSand]

Not to speak for Quik, but in my case and I think mainly on this side of the pond, Landis testing positive doesn't mean that every cyclist is cheating -- but the fact that 48 cyclists were caught in a sting and four of the top five finishers in last year's race were barred from competiting this year is indicating that "everybody" is cheating. And by "everybody," I mean any cyclist who had a chance to win. The guy who came in last might have been clean. But it seems unlikely given how many people in cycling have been cheating that anyone could compete without cheating.

Thanks - I stepped away from this thread and forgot that I'd probably get backlash. This sums up my view just fine. I don't know much about cycling, but nearly every candid assessment I have heard or read suggests that the sports is just doped up like crazy.

[QuikSand]

Like crazy.

[flere-imsaho]

Heh.

[QuikSand]

This seemed like the more relevant thread to bump given the recent headlines, but what would I know?