A question about employability?

[mgadfly]

If you were the manager or owner of a place of business and someone put on their application for employment that they had been fired from their previous job for "negligent cash handling that caused a loss to the company" would you believe that is the whole story? Would you hire them?

To be a little more clear... Applicant says she was a long term employee at Fictional Inc. and worked as a cashier. One day she made a mistake and they fired her for violating the above policy. She claims that she never had any prior problems and that she wasn't stealing, that they truely determined it was a mistake but fired her anyway.

Would you buy that, or call bull?

BTW, a call to Fictional Inc. would only get you her employment dates.

[Rizon]

If it were a small company, no way. A larger company with security, maybe.

[saldana]

i would probably hire her, but make it clear when offering her the job that if her register was off by more than a few cents, she would be out of there. (this is coming from someone who worked in cash handling type jobs for almost 10 years, and knows mistakes happen)

[kcchief19]

I would tend to believe the story, but still wouldn't hire her. Most large companies, especially by my experience in retail, on reference people will only give employment dates and will tell you if someone is classified as a rehire. Assuming she's sharp enough to know that, she doesn't need to come up with a cover story. She could have not said a word about it and you would be none the wiser.

But that kind of brutal honesty is just a warning flag for me. While I respect the frankness, it indicates to other issues. If I knew the woman and felt she got railroaded, I'd probably feel differently. But assuming I know nothing about her, I'd pass.

[kcchief19]

i would probably hire her, but make it clear when offering her the job that if her register was off by more than a few cents, she would be out of there. (this is coming from someone who worked in cash handling type jobs for almost 10 years, and knows mistakes happen)
I met mrs. kcchief19 while working retail and she's still in management. That's a fine strategy and all, but the downside to that is that it can actually lead to shorting customers.

I worked at a really bad place for a while with a dumb store manager. We had a register come up $50 short one night -- we'll dismiss the fact that I think it was the manager who took the money -- and the manager told the girl who worked the register if she came up short again she would be fired. Next time she worked, her register was over a bizarre amount, something like $14.12. Next time she worked, I watched her carefully and discovered she was only giving customers their bills for change and was only giving them coins as change if they asked. I took her aside and asked her about it and she said she was doing it because she was so afraid if she came up short again she'd loose her job.

Granted, we didn't have the shaprest workforce ... :)

[pennywisesb]

i would probably hire her, but make it clear when offering her the job that if her register was off by more than a few cents, she would be out of there. (this is coming from someone who worked in cash handling type jobs for almost 10 years, and knows mistakes happen)

I agree with Saldana here. I worked as a manager in the restaurant industry for a large portion of my college years and know that mistakes happen all the time with cash drawers. I think that if the rest of her resume showed she was qualified then I would give her the job under the assumption that the first time her drawer was way off, she's gone.

[Grammaticus]

If you were the manager or owner of a place of business and someone put on their application for employment that they had been fired from their previous job for "negligent cash handling that caused a loss to the company" would you believe that is the whole story? Would you hire them?

No, I would not hire her and would not even spend any time thinking about it.

[Mo_sports]

Working limited in the H.R. field, I would say if they were this honest then there is something more to the story.

I have found people who do not take the time to put all the information on an app, and then when it comes time for the face to face interview become very honest. It is very similar to the police interview. I have had people come up to me and ask to shut the door during the interview and then all kinds of bones started flying, I start scanning the app to not find a drop of this info. It makes it very hard on the interviewer and you really have to be very wary because at some point they were considering being dishonest at the point they weren't sure you would call them on it.

Its points to some other issues like the fact that maybe they were to lazy to write it out on paper or maybe I am digging to deep. I would be more than wary and probably pass on this one, especially in the retail world where it is so easy to get away with small things like the person above not giving change, the manager would have been none the wiser to how the company looked had this guy not witnessed it himself, and there is a lot of trust from management when you are a representitive of the company and it is in a positive interactive manner. I just don't think I would put my money on this horse with so many questions already.

[saldana]

I met mrs. kcchief19 while working retail and she's still in management. That's a fine strategy and all, but the downside to that is that it can actually lead to shorting customers.

I worked at a really bad place for a while with a dumb store manager. We had a register come up $50 short one night -- we'll dismiss the fact that I think it was the manager who took the money -- and the manager told the girl who worked the register if she came up short again she would be fired. Next time she worked, her register was over a bizarre amount, something like $14.12. Next time she worked, I watched her carefully and discovered she was only giving customers their bills for change and was only giving them coins as change if they asked. I took her aside and asked her about it and she said she was doing it because she was so afraid if she came up short again she'd loose her job.

Granted, we didn't have the shaprest workforce ... :)

that story is a perfect example of "you can't fix dumb."

[MacroGuru]

However, in the retail world, if your store manager or district has it out for you, there is nothing you can do to save your job.

Famous Footwear pulled the fiasco on my wife...

They hired her to replace the management in the store....she was trained, management was forced out.

She turned the store around, shooting them to one of the tops in the district, as well as lowering shrink to 1%, unheard of.

Corporate was taking notice of her, frequent visits, and such congratulating her.

DM felt threatend, started scrutinizing my wifes books...

Pretty soon, if a till was short, that employee was fired, because the DM said so. Basically making the quality of life there, miserable. But my wife hung in there, until she accepted an expired $5 coupon for an employee purchase. She didn't think anything of it, since the system took it.

The DM caught, they fired her. In fact the DM had documented everything, and made it appear my wife had lost control of the store.

Funny thing is, the store is back to dead last in the District again, and that same DM was fired for theft.

*I have seen this kind of tactic for various stores as my wife has worked for the Limited corporation for years. Her and her mother are seen as store builders, they tend to turn stores around in our area. My wife hasn't been in the industry since the incident here, and she is still turning people down.

[Greyroofoo]

Is it possible to call her last employer?

[Bee]

Is she hot?

[Toddzilla]

Hire her - what is the worst that can happen? Lose $20? Give some poor girl a second-chance.

[Samdari]

I would not hire her.

I would also suggest to her that she invent a better reason for her separation from Fictional, Inc. if all they will do is confirm employment dates.

[st.cronin]

I agree with Toddzilla, it's not like you're going to make her your CFO or anything.

[RPI-Fan]

Am I the only one interested in hearing her reaction when told she isn't hired because a bunch of internet fake football dorks said so? :p

[duckman]

I would not hire her.

I would also suggest to her that she invent a better reason for her separation from Fictional, Inc. if all they will do is confirm employment dates.

I've worked in quite a few places that only give out employment dates because of company policy. Some have even stated that there are laws that prevent them from doing more than that although I have never seen any such law. Even during my time in the military, supervisors were specifically told to never give out any information of employment other than dates and positive feedback due to litigation reasons.

[Celeval]

Honest enough to list it on her application is something. If she was going to lie about the impact of it - i.e. it was multiple times, not just once, it was significant amounts, etc... - then why mention it at all? I'd give her a chance, likely with a probationary period and watch her closely.

[Toddzilla]

Exactly - if she was a scumbag, she wouldn't have put in on her resume at all. Good for her to fess up to a serious incident. Hell, maybe her former boss was the asshole kcchief19 knew. Reward honesty and give her the job.

[stevew]

I'm pretty sure that at least in some states your employer is only allowed to confirm dates of employment, and rehire eligibility. Although that may be a bunch of companies with the same policy.

[Grammaticus]

Neither of you have dealt much with criminals who lie a lot, have you? They actually do things like this frequently. For example, the person may well know that someone you contact could unofficially spill the beans that she was fired. By telling you she was fired for an incident that was not her fault, whatever you hear will match her story. Then she thinks she looks good because you respect her for telling the truth, whether you check the back story or not.

Understand, it is extremely rare for companies to fire someone for making a single mistake. It just does not pay in the long run. You lose an experienced employee that you spent a lot of time and resources training, etc. Not sure what type of job you are hiring for, but the probability is that you are better off not hiring her, while other qualified applicants are available.

Yes, it is possible she was wronged and got screwed over. It is possible her employer was the bad guy, but the probability is, the employer fired her for cause and she was the problem. Maybe 2 in 100 people who get fired are actually still someone you would consider a strong employee. People just don't fire someone because they are reliable and do a good job.

Advice:
Steer clear of her and let someone else give her a chance. If you want to do charity work, go donate your time to a charity and don't gamble with your employers resources or your career.

[digamma]

I would not hire her.

I would also suggest to her that she invent a better reason for her separation from Fictional, Inc. if all they will do is confirm employment dates.

Or ask why she didn't negotiate that her release be a "resignation" so she could truthfully state that on her future employment applications.

[BrianD]

Or ask why she didn't negotiate that her release be a "resignation" so she could truthfully state that on her future employment applications.

Unemployment benefits?

[cthomer5000]

Honest enough to list it on her application is something. If she was going to lie about the impact of it - i.e. it was multiple times, not just once, it was significant amounts, etc... - then why mention it at all? I'd give her a chance, likely with a probationary period and watch her closely.

This is my take on it. I don't know why it would be mentioned at all if you thought it was some sort of coverup for a larger issue.

[Grammaticus]

Or ask why she didn't negotiate that her release be a "resignation" so she could truthfully state that on her future employment applications.
Because she stole from the company? Would you let someone who stole from you resign? Although some do, it is best to fire them and let the other employees know they were terminated for theft.

[digamma]

Because she stole from the company? Would you let someone who stole from you resign? Although some do, it is best to fire them and let the other employees know they were terminated for theft.

If her story is true, then she didn't steal, and in most cases of negligent performance or underperformance, the company will agree to accept a resignation.

[kcchief19]

Advice:
Steer clear of her and let someone else give her a chance. If you want to do charity work, go donate your time to a charity and don't gamble with your employers resources or your career.
I wish I didn't feel this way, but this is how I kidn of feel.

Here's an example of a situation I had a few years ago when looking to hire someone. I work for an association, so we're usually looking to get younger hires looking for their first job since their cheap and fit our pay scale. I received a resume from someone who based on their resume was significantly older than that -- I estimated in his early 40s based on his job and education list. I would never discount someone based on age, just salary requirements. His salary request was in line, his experience good for the job. I put him into my "B" pile to consider only if my first few choices don't pan out.

A few days later I get a call from this candidate. He said he knew his resume would look out of place compared to others and he wanted to explain why he was applying for the job and why he was interested. He tells me that a few years ago he owed his own business -- on his resume -- the business went bankrupt and he developed financial problems that eventually led to him writing bad checks and went to jail for a year. He told me the details of his criminal record and contact information for his probation officer.

Before that, he was on the outside looking in for an interview. Know what do I do? Would I hire this going knowing what I know? I thought long and hard about this before I determined that I simply couldn't put my organization into a situation with an employee with a criminal record, regardless of the circumstances involved.

I had a hard time rationalizing that, because I'm normally the kind of person who believes in second chances. But I finally realized that what I was comfortable with were second chances for people I know and can vouch for. I think she should get another chance, but I think she needs to earn that second chance.

And I hate to say this as well, but I think this is the kind of information you should only volunteer when asked. Offering this information freely upfront makes me concerned about the individual's judgement. It could very well be nothing more than brutal honesty, but it could be a signal.

[Mustang]

Because she stole from the company? Would you let someone who stole from you resign? Although some do, it is best to fire them and let the other employees know they were terminated for theft.

Terminate someone and then let other employees know they were stealing? Sorry but, I don't think I agree with letting other employees know the reasons behind firings. If I thought they were stealing, I would be having charges brought against them.

Also, Just because someone is short on the cash register does not mean they are stealing. That is a pretty big assumption to make. Some people are just bad cashiers.

I would agree though, I doubt that she made just one mistake. While I wouldn't assume she is a thief, I would assume that she is a bad cashier though

[BrianD]

Did the previous store have a graphic display above the register with arrows to point to the coin slots and a digital display of how many from each slot should be taken? If not, it is really the store's fault the register was short. :)

[Mustang]

Did the previous store have a graphic display above the register with arrows to point to the coin slots and a digital display of how many from each slot should be taken? If not, it is really the store's fault the register was short. :)

I don't know whether or not to take this seriously or not but, I wouldn't doubt that there probably is a register out there like that....

[cthomer5000]

And I hate to say this as well, but I think this is the kind of information you should only volunteer when asked. Offering this information freely upfront makes me concerned about the individual's judgement. It could very well be nothing more than brutal honesty, but it could be a signal.

Isn't this a double-edged sword? If you only find this out later (say, in a face-to-face interview), wouldn't you say "well, she wasn't up front about that situation, so it proves she's a liar and can't be trusted."

[BrianD]

I don't know whether or not to take this seriously or not but, I wouldn't doubt that there probably is a register out there like that....

There are, I've seen them at plenty of grocery stores. Full LCD register with the drawer below. The screen has arrows to tell you to take 2 from this tray, 1 from this tray, etc.

[Passacaglia]

Understand, it is extremely rare for companies to fire someone for making a single mistake. It just does not pay in the long run. You lose an experienced employee that you spent a lot of time and resources training, etc. Not sure what type of job you are hiring for, but the probability is that you are better off not hiring her, while other qualified applicants are available.

Gotta agree here. Her old company may even have told her that they thought it was a mistake, even though they suspected her of stealing. It's probably easier to fire someone for a mistake that you can prove than an allegation of stealing that you can't.

[mgadfly]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I'm representing a woman that was terminated for "negligence in cash handling that caused a loss to the company." I know the store director (dealt with him in the past) and the loss prevention manager. Both of them testified that they believed the employee was a good employee and that there was no "integrity" issue in this situation.

We have already held the arbitration, and it went very well, but the discharged employee commented to me that she was finding it very difficult to get hired because she had been fired by Fictional Inc. She asked me is she should lie on the application, and I told her not to (I have to give that advice).

The company has a rule that if a checker makes a mistake that they can prove (usually by the employee admitting that they handed back too much change) then the cashier can be terminated after a single incident. The employees can only be discharged for just cause, so I'm very confident I'll do well on this one but was a little surprised she was having so much trouble finding new work.

[st.cronin]

See, if I were in her shoes, the way I would handle it is just put on the resume where I worked and what I did, and leave out the circumstances of why I left. If that gets me an interview, bring it up in the interview as to what happened.

[Celeval]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I'm representing a woman that was terminated for "negligence in cash handling that caused a loss to the company."

Huh, interesting. Glad to be of help.

[BrianD]

See, if I were in her shoes, the way I would handle it is just put on the resume where I worked and what I did, and leave out the circumstances of why I left. If that gets me an interview, bring it up in the interview as to what happened.

Most applications ask about a reason for leaving the last company. It is hard to answer that honestly without at least mentioning a termination or something like that.

[kcchief19]

Isn't this a double-edged sword? If you only find this out later (say, in a face-to-face interview), wouldn't you say "well, she wasn't up front about that situation, so it proves she's a liar and can't be trusted."
It is absolutely a double-edged sword. Some people will automatically disregard anyone who was fired for any reason, so you're not even going to get a face-to-face interview in many situations.

Personally, I think the best policy is to omit any reasons for termination of employment in an application or resume. If you are asked, then be honest and explain the situation. I think 9 times out 10 it won't be an issue if you don't bring it up. It will be an issue 10 times out of 10 if you don't.

I would never lie about. But telling an a prospective employer you were terminated for cash handling issues to me is akin to putting down that you like to get work late and leave early or telling the interviewer you plan to look at porn online all day if hired. Be honest about it if asked, but don't volunteer any information that doesn't help your cause.

[stevew]

I met mrs. kcchief19 while working retail and she's still in management. That's a fine strategy and all, but the downside to that is that it can actually lead to shorting customers.

I worked at a really bad place for a while with a dumb store manager. We had a register come up $50 short one night -- we'll dismiss the fact that I think it was the manager who took the money -- and the manager told the girl who worked the register if she came up short again she would be fired. Next time she worked, her register was over a bizarre amount, something like $14.12. Next time she worked, I watched her carefully and discovered she was only giving customers their bills for change and was only giving them coins as change if they asked. I took her aside and asked her about it and she said she was doing it because she was so afraid if she came up short again she'd loose her job.

Granted, we didn't have the shaprest workforce ... :)

Usually an over register is worse than a short one IMO. The over register almost has to infer that your cashier hasn't rung in the required amount of sales(and has pocketed some of the money) or has defrauded the customers like in your situation. An under register is usually more explainable.

[stevew]

I met mrs. kcchief19 while working retail and she's still in management. That's a fine strategy and all, but the downside to that is that it can actually lead to shorting customers.

I worked at a really bad place for a while with a dumb store manager. We had a register come up $50 short one night -- we'll dismiss the fact that I think it was the manager who took the money -- and the manager told the girl who worked the register if she came up short again she would be fired. Next time she worked, her register was over a bizarre amount, something like $14.12. Next time she worked, I watched her carefully and discovered she was only giving customers their bills for change and was only giving them coins as change if they asked. I took her aside and asked her about it and she said she was doing it because she was so afraid if she came up short again she'd loose her job.

Granted, we didn't have the shaprest workforce ... :)

Usually an over register is worse than a short one IMO. The over register almost has to infer that your cashier hasn't rung in the required amount of sales(and has pocketed some of the money) or has defrauded the customers like in your situation. An under register is usually more explainable.

[clintl]

There are, I've seen them at plenty of grocery stores. Full LCD register with the drawer below. The screen has arrows to tell you to take 2 from this tray, 1 from this tray, etc.

Is this why if your supposed to get $15 back in change these days, you almost always get three $5 bills instead of a $10 and a $5?

[kcchief19]

Usually an over register is worse than a short one IMO. The over register almost has to infer that your cashier hasn't rung in the required amount of sales(and has pocketed some of the money) or has defrauded the customers like in your situation. An under register is usually more explainable.
Absolutely -- I agree. I'm always more concerned with an over register than a short. Except for the manager I caught "borrowing" money from the safe, the worst cases of cashier theft I ever say all involved registers that were over.

[sterlingice]

I have found people who do not take the time to put all the information on an app, and then when it comes time for the face to face interview become very honest. It is very similar to the police interview. I have had people come up to me and ask to shut the door during the interview and then all kinds of bones started flying, I start scanning the app to not find a drop of this info. It makes it very hard on the interviewer and you really have to be very wary because at some point they were considering being dishonest at the point they weren't sure you would call them on it.

Its points to some other issues like the fact that maybe they were to lazy to write it out on paper or maybe I am digging to deep. I would be more than wary and probably pass on this one, especially in the retail world where it is so easy to get away with small things like the person above not giving change, the manager would have been none the wiser to how the company looked had this guy not witnessed it himself, and there is a lot of trust from management when you are a representitive of the company and it is in a positive interactive manner. I just don't think I would put my money on this horse with so many questions already.

Not to play devil's advocate here, but this is the quandry anyone dealing with HR (ie looking for a job) has to deal with. If they had writen some of this out, then they probably wouldn't have even gotten an interview. So, this person is damned if they do, damned if they don't.

"horse with so many questions already"- huh? This person has one mark and you extrapolate about 5 more out of it. I'm not saying this person is a saint and they may be a horrible person but you're just pulling stuff out of thin air with no evidence.

This just goes to feed my dislike for dealing with HR and preference to talking with hiring managers directly.

SI

[sterlingice]

I would tend to believe the story, but still wouldn't hire her. Most large companies, especially by my experience in retail, on reference people will only give employment dates and will tell you if someone is classified as a rehire. Assuming she's sharp enough to know that, she doesn't need to come up with a cover story. She could have not said a word about it and you would be none the wiser.

But that kind of brutal honesty is just a warning flag for me. While I respect the frankness, it indicates to other issues. If I knew the woman and felt she got railroaded, I'd probably feel differently. But assuming I know nothing about her, I'd pass.

This sounds like we're talking about a retail job so it's not like we're weighing a perfect worker against other imperfect workers. We're talking about her versus the stoner versus the overachieving jerk who nobody likes versus the introvert who doesn't say anything in a customer interaction business. Like the above post, I think everyone is trying to jump to the absolute worst conclusions to cover their own arse ("see, I told you she was bad news!")

It's like in baseball where everyone says they want an "ace" for their team but balks when they sign a Pedro because he can get hurt or Clemens because he's old. There's no perfect employee out there just like there's no way in hell you're going to pry away a "perfect ace" like Johan Santana who has good stats, good age, and a perfect contract away from the Twins and I'm sure even Twins fans can find some beefs with him.

SI

[sterlingice]

Isn't this a double-edged sword? If you only find this out later (say, in a face-to-face interview), wouldn't you say "well, she wasn't up front about that situation, so it proves she's a liar and can't be trusted."

Wow- that put what I've said in my past two posts much more succintly and easier to read. :)

SI

[sterlingice]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I'm representing a woman that was terminated for "negligence in cash handling that caused a loss to the company." I know the store director (dealt with him in the past) and the loss prevention manager. Both of them testified that they believed the employee was a good employee and that there was no "integrity" issue in this situation.

We have already held the arbitration, and it went very well, but the discharged employee commented to me that she was finding it very difficult to get hired because she had been fired by Fictional Inc. She asked me is she should lie on the application, and I told her not to (I have to give that advice).

The company has a rule that if a checker makes a mistake that they can prove (usually by the employee admitting that they handed back too much change) then the cashier can be terminated after a single incident. The employees can only be discharged for just cause, so I'm very confident I'll do well on this one but was a little surprised she was having so much trouble finding new work.

D'oh, and I suppose I should have read the whole thread before responding. :p

SI

[clintl]

The company has a rule that if a checker makes a mistake that they can prove (usually by the employee admitting that they handed back too much change) then the cashier can be terminated after a single incident. The employees can only be discharged for just cause, so I'm very confident I'll do well on this one but was a little surprised she was having so much trouble finding new work.

That's a pretty stupid policy.