The Inevitable Thread...

[Glengoyne]

That's the most hilarious thing I've seen all day.

Hey I'm serious. Some of you read something and say to yourself "Will that offend anyone?" Screw that approach. I'm saying you should be reading these posts, and when you come across posts that you think cross whatever subjective line you have drawn in your mind, you should actively look for reasons not to act rather than to act.

Moderate your moderation, is all I'm asking.

When SkyDog announced the multi mod thing, I said "Hey it looks like SD is going to take the actions that he would normally unilaterally perform and run them past some traditionally sane members of the community". I thought that sounded like a great idea.

What we've gotten instead is a half dozen or more very active moderators looking for opportunities to draw their own line in the sand to declare what is appropriate. Instead of SkyDog making mostly reasonable choices and communicating them badly, we have a bunch of mods making very subjective decisions about what is appropriate.

While I don't have a problem with HA's boxing. I do think that now having seen the first few posts in the thread that Wade felt MUCH more strongly about it than I do. I think Wade had a much more visceral reaction to the post than probably most posters here. I'll go so far to say that I think he probably over-reacted to the thread. Because he is a mod, I think that is a problem. I don't expect moderators to get so emotionally charged about a post. I also would expect moderators to step back from situations where they are so clearly effected by something, and have other moderators review the situation. I'm not suggesting that Wade was responsible or involved in HA's boxing, but in rereading that last sentence or two I see where that might not be clear. I was attempting to speak in general terms, not specifics.

[MIJB#19]

I cannot believe anyone is defending a statement like the one that started HA's rant......interesting.



that is the dumbest statement I have heard in a long time and it reeks of racism and bigotryAnd you think your in intent harmless hot-not polls are not racist?

[Honolulu_Blue]

And you think your in intent harmless hot-not polls are not racist?

Sexist? Probably, yes. Racist? Not so much.

[Flasch186]

did you mean sexist? or racist?

[MIJB#19]

Sexist? Probably, yes. Racist? Not so much.But his polls are based on what race the women are. How is that not racist? :confused:

[wade moore]

Hey I'm serious. Some of you read something and say to yourself "Will that offend anyone?" Screw that approach. I'm saying you should be reading these posts, and when you come across posts that you think cross whatever subjective line you have drawn in your mind, you should actively look for reasons not to act rather than to act.

Moderate your moderation, is all I'm asking.

When SkyDog announced the multi mod thing, I said "Hey it looks like SD is going to take the actions that he would normally unilaterally perform and run them past some traditionally sane members of the community". I thought that sounded like a great idea.

What we've gotten instead is a half dozen or more very active moderators looking for opportunities to draw their own line in the sand to declare what is appropriate. Instead of SkyDog making mostly reasonable choices and communicating them badly, we have a bunch of mods making very subjective decisions about what is appropriate.

While I don't have a problem with HA's boxing. I do think that now having seen the first few posts in the thread that Wade felt MUCH more strongly about it than I do. I think Wade had a much more visceral reaction to the post than probably most posters here. I'll go so far to say that I think he probably over-reacted to the thread. Because he is a mod, I think that is a problem. I don't expect moderators to get so emotionally charged about a post. I also would expect moderators to step back from situations where they are so clearly effected by something, and have other moderators review the situation. I'm not suggesting that Wade was responsible or involved in HA's boxing, but in rereading that last sentence or two I see where that might not be clear. I was attempting to speak in general terms, not specifics.

I'm probably pulling back the curtain more than I need to, but whatever... Part of the funny things about this whole mess is I think I am probably one of the mods that tries to communicate the most...

Anyway, I bolded part of Glen's statement. FWIW, this is what I did and I agree with him that when you feel that strongly about a post, you have to step back when a boxing/not boxing decision is made. I did that here, and other mods have done it in various other situations.

I think to say that a mod can't/shouldn't be emotionally charged about a post is silly though. The idea that a mod cannot have an emotional reaction from time to time is unrealistic. However, to say that when they do they need to take a step back and rely on the other mods to make the decision, that is realistic imo.

[Flasch186]

But his polls are based on what race the women are. How is that not racist? :confused:


they are!!! I did not know that at all? Youre telling me that he couldnt put Condoleeza Rice up there? I didn't know. Hmmm, color me ignorant.

[Glengoyne]

You answered your own question there.

I mentioned no one by name, and all I said about the mods involved in my boxing is that they didn't look past the bare surface. I'm saying they rushed to judgement.

As for having the facts wrong. All I did was present the facts as I saw them, and I made it clear that it was my perspective.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Post whatever personal attacks you want without logical discussion of the issue.

What is there to "discuss" Wade?

You've made it clear that you were party to the HA boxing, a decision that I find as breathtakingly ridiculous as anything that's ever taken place at this forum. It's caused me to seriously revise my opinion of you and reinforced my belief that this whole "Mod Squad" idea was the worst one SD ever had.

The only thing that might conceivably redeem those involved in this latest debacle would be their immediate removal from any sort of moderation role and, quite possibly, their exit from the forum entirely since their credibility as adults capable of even simple judgement is shot to hell & gone at this point.

What's left to "discuss"?

You, collectively & individually, fucked up.
Either admit that and then correct it as best you can or deal with the reality that perception of you is inevitably going to be linked to your actions.

[JonInMiddleGA]

reeks of racism and bigotry

Pot meet kettle.

[Glengoyne]

...

I think to say that a mod can't/shouldn't be emotionally charged about a post is silly though. The idea that a mod cannot have an emotional reaction from time to time is unrealistic. However, to say that when they do they need to take a step back and rely on the other mods to make the decision, that is realistic imo.

I'd agree with that. Even the part about my expectation being unrealistic.

[Flasch186]

I think because there are so many different debates that have spawned within this thread that it is possible that this thread could have a very long life. Im guessing 10+ pages......I see more side discussions being spawned, more debate about the mods, Hell Atlantic, Bubba...etc. It could have very good stamina (19-maybe 20), Flair (15), Aggression (17), and it is obviously from Cameroon but on full transfer to a mid-level team (perhaps middlesbrough - Or Forest Green!!!).

[JonInMiddleGA]

... it is obviously from Cameroon but on full transfer to a mid-level team (perhaps middlesbrough - Or Forest Green!!!).

But can it get a work permit?

[wade moore]

What is there to "discuss" Wade?

You've made it clear that you were party to the HA boxing, a decision that I find as breathtakingly ridiculous as anything that's ever taken place at this forum. It's caused me to seriously revise my opinion of you and reinforced my belief that this whole "Mod Squad" idea was the worst one SD ever had.

The only thing that might conceivably redeem those involved in this latest debacle would be their immediate removal from any sort of moderation role and, quite possibly, their exit from the forum entirely since their credibility as adults capable of even simple judgement is shot to hell & gone at this point.

What's left to "discuss"?

You, collectively & individually, fucked up.
Either admit that and then correct it as best you can or deal with the reality that perception of you is inevitably going to be linked to your actions.

I have no problems that my perception is linked to my actions in the HA boxing. I stand by them.

The fact that you disagree with it so strongly means very little to me in the long run. If I were to post the posts you've reported for boxing people would see that you have no room being the arbiter of what is and is not a good modding decision. Your ideas of boxings revolve around who agrees or disagrees with you, simple as that.

[TroyF]

I'd say it'd probably be safe to use "capitalists" or "Christians" and there wouldn't be much of an outcry. "Republican" or "conservative" would obviously work without a problem.


Jon,

First off, I'm an idiot. I say that because I was one who voted for the thread to be deleted and had zero issue with a boxing of HA. None at all. I thought he took a serious subject and tarnished it with his "caged animals" analogy. I thought that not only was that offensive, that it could get worse the longer the thread continued on.

I guess what really offends me is what is posted above. I take a pretty strong lean to the right. I try to avoid religious discussions, but I've went on the side that Christians are getting unfairly attacked many, many times on this board. While I don't always agree with your opinion all the time in political discussions, I do understand and respect the view more than many here.

I'm not a PC guy. Not in the least. I think people need to stop being offended by everything and that understanding is far more important in the long run than stopping a persons right to speak.

Having said all that, I still support what took place. I thought it was uncalled for, out of line and ridiculous. I would have thought that if someone had attacked Chritians, Republicans, Jews, Hindus, the Atlanta Falcons, MILF's or Mods. If that makes me an idiot, I can live with it. But I won't sit here and listen to you tell me it would have been different if "x" had been in the place of Africans. That's not what I believe in.

I can't say what the rest of the Mods would have done, but I can promise you I would have been passionate about it and stated my case.

There were other mods who disagreed with the boxing and the closing of the thread. There is a very diverse group of people in the mod group. Some believe in being heavy handed. Others believe in letting nearly everything go. Some are in between. I think I'm somewhere in between, but others can judge for themselves what they think.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Your ideas of boxings revolve around who agrees or disagrees with you, simple as that.

Wrong again. Are you trying to set a single day record or something?

They all involve clear and obvious examples of trolling. I won't deny that there's a trend to the examples I report, but every single one of them was nothing more than trolling, albeit trolling that's condoned by the pitiable excuse for moderation that you represent.

You really ought to quit while you're behind here WM, you're clearly in over your head at this point. Move on to another thread for a while or something, frankly you're moving from taking an idiotic action to just being another whiny ass.

[Glengoyne]

I think because there are so many different debates that have spawned within this thread that it is possible that this thread could have a very long life. Im guessing 10+ pages......I see more side discussions being spawned, more debate about the mods, Hell Atlantic, Bubba...etc. It could have very good stamina (19-maybe 20), Flair (15), Aggression (17), and it is obviously from Cameroon but on full transfer to a mid-level team (perhaps middlesbrough - Or Forest Green!!!).

Nice.

That reminds me that I should go back to running Queen's Park into the ground in the Scottish Third Division instead of arguing here. This is a day off for goodness sakes.

[TroyF]

Dola:

If you think I should take a leave from the forum for that decision, I'll respectfully refuse. I stand by my decisions as a mod and at what point SD or a majority of the forum think I'm not doing my job well in that regard, I'll step aside.

But I'm not leaving because you don't like a decision I made.

[MalcPow]

I think because there are so many different debates that have spawned within this thread that it is possible that this thread could have a very long life. Im guessing 10+ pages......I see more side discussions being spawned, more debate about the mods, Hell Atlantic, Bubba...etc. It could have very good stamina (19-maybe 20), Flair (15), Aggression (17), and it is obviously from Cameroon but on full transfer to a mid-level team (perhaps middlesbrough - Or Forest Green!!!).

Flasch: Anticipation 20, Eccentricity 20 :)

[SirFozzie]

Some day, all arguments will be settled by playing Football Manager.

[Butter]

frankly you're moving from taking an idiotic action to just being another whiny ass.

That is gold. Ironic, ironic gold.

[SirFozzie]

Wow. Football Manager and personal arguments are trying the rarely seen simultaneous threadjack

[wade moore]

Wrong again. Are you trying to set a single day record or something?

They all involve clear and obvious examples of trolling. I won't deny that there's a trend to the examples I report, but every single one of them was nothing more than trolling, albeit trolling that's condoned by the pitiable excuse for moderation that you represent.

You really ought to quit while you're behind here WM, you're clearly in over your head at this point. Move on to another thread for a while or something, frankly you're moving from taking an idiotic action to just being another whiny ass.

Again, your definition of "obvious trolling" is just not accurate. The reaction of the rest of the board to the posts that you have reported prove that. This thread by HA, and many posts from you in the past, are far more clear examples of trolling than the threads you report.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Troy,

I appreciate your defense but here's the difference -- I don't believe for one single solitary second if the group HA chose to exercise his hyperbole on had been any of the ones I mentioned that there would even have been a discussion about whether to lock the thread/box anybody/etc.

In other words, I don't believe you would have had the opportunity to discuss it/take a position because it wouldn't have come up in the first place. That's a different matter than what position you would have taken if it had come up.

Now, if you're telling me (and I'm misreading it) that you would have personally taken the issue before the Mod Squad for action, then I'll accept your word on it and believe you. But in that case, I'd also challenge you to become more vigilant and active in your pursuit of those situations because there's certainly no shortage of them.

Worth noting here too, I suppose, is that I'm pretty consistent in support of strong moderation as a working model ... but it should also either be consistent in its application or at the very least transparent about what the inconsistencies are going to be.

Right now, this looks like an ugly combination of moderator overreaction, bias against HA, and somebody's idea of a sacred cow, applied in varying degrees. by various mods. And that just sucks AFAIC. I've seen a helluva lot more offensive stuff than his choice of hyperbole, so this just makes no sense to me at all.

[WSUCougar]

What apparently seems to be continually evading some people's minds - and by "minds" I'm using the term loosely in JIMG's curious case - is that no moderator or group of moderators will ever precisely match the thinking, judgement, and expectations of one individual. So while some of you will continue to rant and rave about the gross injustice of it all, there's another dozen or so queing up to shoot their collective, envenomed wads if a moderation decision goes a different direction.

We do the best we can to address the concerns placed before us, either through our own observation or through reporting of other board members. It's truly laughable to suggest that we lurk around waiting for the next opportunity to box somebody for some trivial statement or PC-related cause. That couldn't be farther from the truth. We don't bring the hammer lightly - or, more correctly speaking only for myself, I don't.

As for you, JIMG, let's just say that the hammer is out and ready to pound.

[Samdari]

Again, your definition of "obvious trolling" is just not accurate.

What the two of you are not realizing is that you are actually agreeing.

You say John reports posts that disagree with his.

John says that he reports posts that are obviously trolling.

You are talking about the same thing, just using different words to describe it.

[Schmidty]

I really, really cannot believe that people are complaining about HA's boxing. He should have been banned, not boxed.

That thread gives me braggggadocious deja vu.

[wade moore]

Right now, this looks like an ugly combination of moderator overreaction, bias against HA, and somebody's idea of a sacred cow, applied in varying degrees. by various mods. And that just sucks AFAIC. I've seen a helluva lot more offensive stuff than his choice of hyperbole, so this just makes no sense to me at all.

I'm being completely serious and not combative like I have been in my other posts.

You do realize that what you find offensive differs from probably about 95% of the rest of this board, correct?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Again, your definition of "obvious trolling" is just not accurate. The reaction of the rest of the board to the posts that you have reported prove that.

You really are going for the single day record, aren't you?

All that the "reaction to the rest" proves is that there's easy acceptance here of trolling as long as you pick the right targets.

Hell, there's regular and consistent trolling of several individual board members specifically on a daily basis -- trolling of them, I mean, not by them -- And not all of those who are blantantly trolled are particularly on my list of favorite people either, but that doesn't make it any less obvious when it happens. But they've been deemed okay to target by what passes for powers that be around here.

It is what it is, but damn, at least nut up & admit those biases.

[wade moore]

What the two of you are not realizing is that you are actually agreeing.

You say John reports posts that disagree with his.

John says that he reports posts that are obviously trolling.

You are talking about the same thing, just using different words to describe it.

I actually agree with you...

I'm probably not making my point all that clear. I guess part of what I'm trying to say is I'm at least basing what I'm saying on a jury of 7 whereas Jon is making it based on a jury of 1. If 7 agree and the 1 disagrees, I tend to believe that what the 7 believe is more obvious than what the 1 believes.

Part of the thing with modding this board or being a member - you're never going to get everyone to agree on what posts are trolling and what posts are not. There is a point where a decision has to be made. In this case, Ben has made it so that there is a group of 7 (plus the person/persons that report a post) to make this decision, rather than 1. I think this tends to make a more accurate reflection of what is good for the board.

Do all 7 always agree? No. However, in every case that I can think of at least 5 or 6 agreed, and often 7.

So, I tend to take that as a more accurate reflection of "obvious trolling" than Jon's reported posts that no one in the community reacts to except for him.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I really, really cannot believe that people are complaining about HA's boxing. He should have been banned, not boxed.

That thread gives me braggggadocious deja vu.

You know, HA is just loving this. He loves the attention and the spectacle this is creating.

I bet he's just pounding away at some poor Chipotle Southwest Cheese Steak sub with glee while constantly hitting the "refresh" button to see what post comes next.

Either that or he's over at Sports Digs hanging out with Franklinboble and Mrs. Franklinoble.

[MJ4H]

But his polls are based on what race the women are. How is that not racist? :confused:

Which race do his polls claim is superior or inferior to others? I'm completely missing that.

[rkmsuf]

Not that it matters but I haven't a clue what you people are arguing about.

Seems like it's stimulating you though so I guess that's a good thing.

[cartman]

Damn activist mods...

:D

[SirFozzie]

Not that it matters but I haven't a clue what you people are arguing about.

Seems like it's stimulating you though so I guess that's a good thing.

rkmsuf: Here's the thread:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=50984

The title and the first line is what riled some folks up. HA got boxed. Othes disagree.

[wade moore]

You really are going for the single day record, aren't you?

All that the "reaction to the rest" proves is that there's easy acceptance here of trolling as long as you pick the right targets.

Hell, there's regular and consistent trolling of several individual board members specifically on a daily basis -- trolling of them, I mean, not by them -- And not all of those who are blantantly trolled are particularly on my list of favorite people either, but that doesn't make it any less obvious when it happens. But they've been deemed okay to target by what passes for powers that be around here.

It is what it is, but damn, at least nut up & admit those biases.

In this case, HA was making a trolling post that would incite a reaction amongst a large enough portion of the board to create a thread that was merely negative, trolling on top of trolling, insults, etc. without any contructive conversation.

This is different in my mind than the trolling you're speaking of as it tends to to the entire breakdown of a thread from post 1.

[st.cronin]

I really, really cannot believe that people are complaining about HA's boxing. He should have been banned, not boxed.

That thread gives me braggggadocious deja vu.

yes yes yes

There's about 4-5 individuals whose bannings are loooooooooooong overdue. At least two of them have posted in this thread.

[wade moore]

Damn activist mods...

:D

This is the first time in this thread that I laughed out loud.

[rkmsuf]

rkmsuf: Here's the thread:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=50984

The title and the first line is what riled some folks up. HA got boxed. Othes disagree.

I got the general issue. The minutia that this has taken on fascinates me.

[WSUCougar]

I bet he's just pounding away at some poor Chipotle Southwest Cheese Steak sub with glee while constantly hitting the "refresh" button to see what post comes next.
Hockey Boy shoots...

...and SCORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRES!!! :D :D :D

[GoldenEagle]

In my opinion, JiMGA and Bubba Wheels are doing the same exact thing in this thread that HA did in his thread.

And we never got an explanation on why sov was boxed.

[wade moore]

In my opinion, JiMGA and Bubba Wheels are doing the same exact thing in this thread that HA did in his thread.

And we never got an explanation on why sov was boxed.
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=51077

[Desnudo]

Not that it matters but I haven't a clue what you people are arguing about.

Seems like it's stimulating you though so I guess that's a good thing.

You said, she said, blah, blah, my First Amendment rights are being violated by not being able to be a racist prick on this board. I think that summarizes the past 10 pages.

[GoldenEagle]

There's about 4-5 individuals whose bannings are loooooooooooong overdue. At least two of them have posted in this thread.

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner. I would imagine that everyone knows exactly which two people you are talking about.

[rkmsuf]

You said, she said, blah, blah, my First Ammendment rights are being violated by not being able to be a racist prick on this board. I think that summarizes the past 10 pages.

Thank you. I like the way you think.

FOFC is much more simple when we stick to disney rides and driving werewolves.

[Schmidty]

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=51077

If what sov was doing was trolling, then why hasn't BW been boxed? He's even admitted that he's trying to stir things up:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1194655&postcount=32

[JonInMiddleGA]

As for you, JIMG, let's just say that the hammer is out and ready to pound.

There is not, as far as I know, any rule against criticism of moderators or their decision. It's an open thread, full of open discussion and open dissension.

I'm not the first to say that I think the creation of the Mod Squad was a bad idea, I'm not the first to say that I think an action they've taken is b.s. I didn't hesitate to say it to the guy who owns the freakin' board when he did it, so I see zero reason to hesitate to say it to any of his underlings when they do it. It has been accepted by the board owner and as far as I know he hasn't declared it unacceptable. But hey, maybe you've decided to change the rules and this is how you've decided to announce that.

If you truly feel you have just cause, then bring it ... but at least take advantage of the opportunity to set the new rules in place for everybody to follow. Or, if you're going to work from separate rules for separate people, then email them or PM them or somehow communicate individually with them what rules they'll be operating under in the future. Seems like it would save time & trouble in the long run.

[st.cronin]

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner. I would imagine that everyone knows exactly which two people you are talking about.

Well, JimGa is NOT one of them. I know a lot of people don't like him, but I find him charming and kinda lovable. But otherwise it shouldn't be too tough to figure out.

[Honolulu_Blue]

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner. I would imagine that everyone knows exactly which two people you are talking about.

twothree and pennywisesb?

Agreed. Those two just never stop causing problems.

[WSUCougar]

There is not, as far as I know, any rule against criticism of moderators or their decision. It's an open thread, full of open discussion and open dissension.
Quite correct. Keep it civil and we won't have an issue.

[Fidatelo]

Can boxed people still read threads (just not post)? Cuz if so HA has likely killed more kittens while reading this thread than a chinese chef at the Taipei Food Festival.

[Honolulu_Blue]

If what sov was doing was trolling, then why hasn't BW been boxed? He's even admitted that he's trying to stir things up:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1194655&postcount=32

Well, if he were a capitalist Christian conservative Republican he would've been boxed or banned in a damned New York minute. Trust me on that one. Trust me, especially if he was wealthy too.

[rkmsuf]

Quite correct. Keep it civil and we won't have an issue.

Can I call you mean, awful names just for fun? How about a stupid and futile gesture be done on your behalf.

[Desnudo]

Well, JimGa is NOT one of them. I know a lot of people don't like him, but I find him charming and kinda lovable. But otherwise it shouldn't be too tough to figure out.

st. cronin and Pumpy?

[wade moore]

Can boxed people still read threads (just not post)? Cuz if so HA has likely killed more kittens while reading this thread than a chinese chef at the Taipei Food Festival.

Yes, boxed individuals can read threads, and I know for a fact that HA has read this thread.

[WSUCougar]

Can I call you mean, awful names just for fun? How about a stupid and futile gesture be done on your behalf.
Only if you spank me first.

[vtbub]

yes yes yes

There's about 4-5 individuals whose bannings are loooooooooooong overdue. At least two of them have posted in this thread.

I'm sorry, I'll stop causing problems.

[Desnudo]

Thank you. I like the way you think.

FOFC is much more simple when we stick to disney rides and driving werewolves.

I am an island of serenity in a sea of chaos.

[John Galt]

Well, JimGa is NOT one of them. I know a lot of people don't like him, but I find him charming and kinda lovable. But otherwise it shouldn't be too tough to figure out.

:confused: Is this one of those, "If you can't spot the sucker in the first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker," sort of things?

[WSUCougar]

Islands in the stream. That is what we are.

[rkmsuf]

Only if you spank me first.

My first reaction was "that won't be a problem" but then I had to rethink my position on that. Might cause some boxable name calling.

[WSUCougar]

My first reaction was "that won't be a problem" but then I had to rethink my position on that. Might cause some boxable name calling.
Reach around?

[rkmsuf]

Reach around?

Only if I can use Desnudo's hand.

[TroyF]

Troy,

I appreciate your defense but here's the difference -- I don't believe for one single solitary second if the group HA chose to exercise his hyperbole on had been any of the ones I mentioned that there would even have been a discussion about whether to lock the thread/box anybody/etc.

In other words, I don't believe you would have had the opportunity to discuss it/take a position because it wouldn't have come up in the first place. That's a different matter than what position you would have taken if it had come up.

Now, if you're telling me (and I'm misreading it) that you would have personally taken the issue before the Mod Squad for action, then I'll accept your word on it and believe you. But in that case, I'd also challenge you to become more vigilant and active in your pursuit of those situations because there's certainly no shortage of them.

Worth noting here too, I suppose, is that I'm pretty consistent in support of strong moderation as a working model ... but it should also either be consistent in its application or at the very least transparent about what the inconsistencies are going to be.

Right now, this looks like an ugly combination of moderator overreaction, bias against HA, and somebody's idea of a sacred cow, applied in varying degrees. by various mods. And that just sucks AFAIC. I've seen a helluva lot more offensive stuff than his choice of hyperbole, so this just makes no sense to me at all.

I think your belief is wrong. I think it would have been spotted instantly by other mods and acted upon.

The people criticizing the mod team don't seem to understand how diverse we really are. There are people on this forum I despise. Hate with a passion. And some of the other mods love those guys. It goes the other way as well.

I don't even know what the hell agenda you keep referring to either. I'm certainly not part of any dark conspiracy, nor do I believe any of my fellow mods are. We don't hop into a chat and figure out a way to slam the five posters we hate.

Hell, I still have people on ignore and I've DEFENDED some of the people I have on ignore from mod action. I take each case and do the best I can with it. I add my two cents in the forum when I feel I have something to add. I second others actions when I feel it is appropriate. But agenda?

Please. The thing I like least about being a mod is having my decisions dissected like this. I've rarely gotten involved in defending one I've made and I won't do that here. I feel it was the right call and it doesn't matter to me if you or everyone disagrees with that. Again, if there is a groundswell of support for me to lose the mod title, so be it. As long as I am a mod, I'm going to give my opinion, make decisions and will stand by the decisions of the mod team as a whole. In other words, I'm going to do the best I can in any situation, regardless of the parties in question.

[TroyF]

I'm sorry, I'll stop causing problems.


Yeah pal, you have an email to answer to as well.

You've caused a ton of trouble. I say off with your hand.

[Desnudo]

Only if I can use Desnudo's hand.

serenity now, serenity now

[cartman]

Here's a quote that I think is extremely applicable:

"When the seagulls follow the fishing boat, it is because they think bait fish will be thrown into the ocean."

I don't have a source to attribute this to, but it is not an original of mine.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think your belief is wrong. I think it would have been spotted instantly by other mods and acted upon.

Then, obviously, we disagree. About as completely and utterly as possible on this point.

nor do I believe any of my fellow mods are.

We disagree twice in one thread.

I feel it was the right call and it doesn't matter to me if you or everyone disagrees with that.

That's yours to believe too.

Just as it's mine to have an opinion of the decision and to weight it in drawing conclusions about both committee and the wisdom of the entire notion of moderation by committee. (okay, admittedly, I had reached a conclusion on the latter long before this incident).

[flere-imsaho]

"When the seagulls follow the fishing boat, it is because they think bait fish will be thrown into the ocean."

The noted philosopher Eric Cantona.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The noted philosopher Eric Cantona.

Isn't he a soccer player?

[flere-imsaho]

Isn't he a soccer player?

Yep. ;)

[GoldenEagle]

I think we should instaban flere. He got us all spoiled with some diagrams but has not been doing his job lately and explaining Flasch posts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yep. ;)

I'm genuinely amazed that I dredged that up out of my subconscious.

I seriously had to Google the name afterwards to see who the guy was. When I posted that, I really figured I was mangling the reference in my memory somehow and that he was really an alt-rock singer or an art film guy or something.

[wade moore]

Then, obviously, we disagree. About as completely and utterly as possible on this point.



We disagree twice in one thread.



That's yours to believe too.

Just as it's mine to have an opinion of the decision and to weight it in drawing conclusions about both committee and the wisdom of the entire notion of moderation by committee. (okay, admittedly, I had reached a conclusion on the latter long before this incident).

I think it's funny that the actions of this committee are question when they are making actions that SkyDog would have done if working solo.

[Raiders Army]

I think it's funny that the actions of this committee are question when they are making actions that SkyDog would have done if working solo.
I'm not so sure about that. Maybe you're more "in the know" than I am, but from my perspective, I'm uncertain about a lot of things.

First, I would say that I agree with HA's boxing after viewing it. If past history is any indication combined with his actions the past week, then I would say that the boxing is legitimate; however, the conundrum is that his past actions have afforded him a little leniency from SkyDog; a lot of people including SkyDog recognize that that's just how he is. The problem with this logic is that that defense is what has enabled him to post in his own particular manner in the first place.

The common thread between HA's boxing and sov's boxing is that both are inconsistent with mod decisions in the past. SkyDog didn't box HA for posting a possibly inflammatory thread in the past (which I don't see as being inflammatory, FWIW) and SkyDog didn't box me when I described something as faggoty. I'm not saying that both actions were right and should be tolerated; I'm saying that it seems as if stuff that was tolerated in the past is no longer tolerated now, and this makes these boxings seem very arbitrary or possibly personality-related.

[WSUCougar]

and SkyDog didn't box me when I described something as faggoty
Sovereignstar didn't "describe something as faggoty."

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think it's funny that the actions of this committee are question when they are making actions that SkyDog would have done if working solo.

see the first & last sentences of RaidersArmy's post -- he already said what I was going to say.

[Desnudo]

I'm genuinely amazed that I dredged that up out of my subconscious.

I seriously had to Google the name afterwards to see who the guy was. When I posted that, I really figured I was mangling the reference in my memory somehow and that he was really an alt-rock singer or an art film guy or something.

He was all over the place in Nike commercials leading up to the world cup.

[Raiders Army]

Sovereignstar didn't "describe something as faggoty."
Gotcha. Subtle difference in words and upon reflection I see why he was boxed as opposed to reacting to his usage of faggot.

I really don't think he was trolling though. As was said earlier in the thread, I perceived it to be posted in a comedic way as opposed to an inflammatory way.

[JonInMiddleGA]

He was all over the place in Nike commercials leading up to the world cup.

Which might have helped ... except that I didn't know him from Adam's housecat otherwise, meaning I'm sure I saw them but didn't connect him to them specifically. (I know about the commericials 'cause they're mentioned in his Wiki entry & they sounded vaguely familiar when I read the description)

I even recalled the dropkick of the fan after seeing the picture of it, but if you had shown me the picture, I wouldn't have been able to come up with his name in connection with it if you gave me 100 tries.

[miked]

OMG people can't post on a message board for 2 weeks!!!!111!1!

I'll pre-post what he'll miss in 2 weeks or whatever. Somebody will have a problem, to this Anthony says, "grow a pair and stop posting on a messageboard."

There will be several hot or not polls, to this, the venerable Anthony says, hot, hot, not, not with xxxx's penis, hot, I'd hit that slowly with my baby arm soaked in mustard.

He will get drunk and nearly get fired again, to the haters he will say, "but I didn't get fired, had the time of my life, went home and made the sweet thing to my lady while thinking about pouring hot sauce on Stacy Dash's erect nipples.

Did I miss anything?

[wade moore]

I'm not so sure about that. Maybe you're more "in the know" than I am, but from my perspective, I'm uncertain about a lot of things.

First, I would say that I agree with HA's boxing after viewing it. If past history is any indication combined with his actions the past week, then I would say that the boxing is legitimate; however, the conundrum is that his past actions have afforded him a little leniency from SkyDog; a lot of people including SkyDog recognize that that's just how he is. The problem with this logic is that that defense is what has enabled him to post in his own particular manner in the first place.

The common thread between HA's boxing and sov's boxing is that both are inconsistent with mod decisions in the past. SkyDog didn't box HA for posting a possibly inflammatory thread in the past (which I don't see as being inflammatory, FWIW) and SkyDog didn't box me when I described something as faggoty. I'm not saying that both actions were right and should be tolerated; I'm saying that it seems as if stuff that was tolerated in the past is no longer tolerated now, and this makes these boxings seem very arbitrary or possibly personality-related.

I've probably spoken too much for SkyDog already, but he has yet to show any problems with the boxings and has been one of the first two to jump out in front of at least one boxing that has been lamented as proof of the new overwhelming mod team.

[Franklinnoble]

The whole notion of permanent banning is a bunch of self-important crap. Boxing is fine, if the transgression is truly that harsh, but honestly, there are better ways to deal with this rather than running around with a "daddy" complex.

If the mods had any balls, they'd un-ban everyone. Use the penalty box if you have to, or create a sub-forum for the trolls if it becomes necessary. But the current policy is failing because people will always get bent when you ban someone completely. Especially if it's just for having a strong (and unpopular) opinion. It's absurd. My wife was a long time lurker here, and got shut out because she decided to take the left-wing liberal crowd on. So what if she didn't want to talk FOF? Maybe she should have spent some time in a werewolf thread first, but the bottom line is that there are plenty of others who spew almost nothing else but their own political and moral views on here.

She's been a model citizen on every other board, and in all the Civ games we have going on here, but she can't participate in any discussion here, because people got their panties in a bunch because she's not afraid to step on a few toes with her moral and political views. But we can tolerate the liberals bashing Bush, Iraq, and anybody in the religious right on a daily basis.

It's inconsistent, and ultimately unfair. The policy needs to change. Just freaking change it already. Admit you can do things better, and change it. Nobody would be upset at you for trying.

[Cringer]

Ok, so after getting to read the original HA thread hat got him boxed (thank you for making it available to read) I still say the boxing is wrong.

I think he came off as overly harsh, but he starts to explain his statements further down. I don't think it was meant to be racist(but can clearly come off that way at a quick glance of the title and first post), and I think people thinking it was racism was why he got banned. I don't see him trolling really either, he read something, got pissed off, and then did a poor job in showing his anger at the subject.

Also, those calling for a full banning based on this are just wrong IMO.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Also, those calling for a full banning based on this are just wrong IMO.

I don't think anyone is calling for a full banning of HA based on that thread alone. I think those who want him fully banned (I'm not one of them, by the way) is more of a lifetime achievement banning. They would view that thread as just a drop in the bucket.

I think. . .

[Cringer]

...was for trolling.

Now that we've covered that ground, please carry on with your day.


Not covered, it's BS. Stuff like that is done all the time. Now I shall carry on with my day.

[Cringer]

I don't think anyone is calling for a full banning of HA based on that thread alone. I think those who want him fully banned (I'm not one of them, by the way) is more of a lifetime achievement banning. They would view that thread as just a drop in the bucket.

I think. . .

I would hope, but notwanting to go back through a bunch of stuff I know I have seen a call for banning several times in this thread and I think it's way over the top.

[wade moore]

The whole notion of permanent banning is a bunch of self-important crap. Boxing is fine, if the transgression is truly that harsh, but honestly, there are better ways to deal with this rather than running around with a "daddy" complex.

If the mods had any balls, they'd un-ban everyone. Use the penalty box if you have to, or create a sub-forum for the trolls if it becomes necessary. But the current policy is failing because people will always get bent when you ban someone completely. Especially if it's just for having a strong (and unpopular) opinion. It's absurd. My wife was a long time lurker here, and got shut out because she decided to take the left-wing liberal crowd on. So what if she didn't want to talk FOF? Maybe she should have spent some time in a werewolf thread first, but the bottom line is that there are plenty of others who spew almost nothing else but their own political and moral views on here.

She's been a model citizen on every other board, and in all the Civ games we have going on here, but she can't participate in any discussion here, because people got their panties in a bunch because she's not afraid to step on a few toes with her moral and political views. But we can tolerate the liberals bashing Bush, Iraq, and anybody in the religious right on a daily basis.

It's inconsistent, and ultimately unfair. The policy needs to change. Just freaking change it already. Admit you can do things better, and change it. Nobody would be upset at you for trying.

This is a bit out of left field. None of the recent actions involved perm-bans.

[sabotai]

Not covered, it's BS. Stuff like that is done all the time. Now I shall carry on with my day.

Yeah, apparently quoting a line from a movie in an attempt at humor is considered trolling now.

Whatever.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Especially if it's just for having a strong (and unpopular) opinion. It's absurd. My wife was a long time lurker here, and got shut out because she decided to take the left-wing liberal crowd on. So what if she didn't want to talk FOF? Maybe she should have spent some time in a werewolf thread first, but the bottom line is that there are plenty of others who spew almost nothing else but their own political and moral views on here.

She's been a model citizen on every other board, and in all the Civ games we have going on here, but she can't participate in any discussion here, because people got their panties in a bunch because she's not afraid to step on a few toes with her moral and political views. But we can tolerate the liberals bashing Bush, Iraq, and anybody in the religious right on a daily basis.

It's inconsistent, and ultimately unfair. The policy needs to change. Just freaking change it already. Admit you can do things better, and change it. Nobody would be upset at you for trying.

Stop. Please.

If folks around here were banned for just for having a strong (and unpopular) opinion this place would be a ghost town. You wife wasn't banned because of her "her moral and political views." There are a number of people who post here all the time that share many (if not all) of her moral and political views (e.g., you, JiMGA, Bubbawheels, WVUFAN, etc., etc., etc.).

Her entire (yet short) existence on this board was the very epitome of trolling. It was trolling of the highest order. Unfortunately, she offered nothing of value or substance to this community and seemed incapable of doing so. Not sure why that was, but it was clearly the case. She just couldn't seem to help herself.

But we can tolerate the liberals bashing Bush, Iraq, and anybody in the religious right on a daily basis.

We can? Why don't you ask Jesse Ewiak about that. Oh, that's right, you can't because he was banned for allegedly being a troll because he allegedly only posted in political threads "bashing Bush, Iraq, and anybody in the religious right."

This whole liberals get away with everything on this baord, but us poor moral, Christian conservatives are persecuted is one of the silliest lines of argument that I have run across here. Like most places, there are people on the left, people on the right, people in the middle, people all over the place. 99% of these people are free to speak their mind and do so on a regular basis. Sometimes folks push too far and get boxed/banned. It happens. Life goes on. So be it.

[Franklinnoble]

This is a bit out of left field. None of the recent actions involved perm-bans.

No, but people are squawking about it here anyway, and, frankly, I'm still pissed off about the whole notion.

Seriously... what would be wrong with setting up a flamewar sub-forum for the threads that get out of control, and just move them there? Even the users that have been perma-banned could come back, and the policy would be clear - post something inflammatory, and your thread gets thrown out of the general forum. It's pretty simple. You could have tossed HA's thread there, and been done with it. Honestly, I think in that case, he was just ranting anyway... I don't get the impression that he was truly being a racist.

[Franklinnoble]

Her entire (yet short) existence on this board was the very epitome of trolling. It was trolling of the highest order. Unfortunately, she offered nothing of value or substance to this community and seemed incapable of doing so. Not sure why that was, but it was clearly the case. She just couldn't seem to help herself.


She didn't troll anymore than you, Mr. Bigglesworth, flere-imsaho, or any number of other posters. They get away with it because they'd been around longer. The message was clear - if you're a noob, keep your opinion to yourself until you have a thousand posts or so, or you get slapped. It's bullshit, and you know it. But you and your ilk are too busy acting like crybabies to ignore what you don't like to read.

[MIJB#19]

Which race do his polls claim is superior or inferior to others? I'm completely missing that.How is seperating people based on race, not racism?
How is calling someone else a racist and following it up by doing the exact same thing you accuse the other person of not racist?

I realize these particular polls are fairly innocent, but bottom line I think any form of racism is racism, even if it's ment to promote minorities.

[ice4277]

No, but people are squawking about it here anyway, and, frankly, I'm still pissed off about the whole notion.

Seriously... what would be wrong with setting up a flamewar sub-forum for the threads that get out of control, and just move them there? Even the users that have been perma-banned could come back, and the policy would be clear - post something inflammatory, and your thread gets thrown out of the general forum. It's pretty simple. You could have tossed HA's thread there, and been done with it. Honestly, I think in that case, he was just ranting anyway... I don't get the impression that he was truly being a racist.

Why don't you just start it on your board and post-whore here about it every 15 minutes.

[st.cronin]

She didn't troll anymore than you, Mr. Bigglesworth, flere-imsaho, or any number of other posters. They get away with it because they'd been around longer. The message was clear - if you're a noob, keep your opinion to yourself until you have a thousand posts or so, or you get slapped. It's bullshit, and you know it. But you and your ilk are too busy acting like crybabies to ignore what you don't like to read.

I have never noticed HB or flere trolling.

[flere-imsaho]

She's been a model citizen on every other board, and in all the Civ games we have going on here, but she can't participate in any discussion here, because people got their panties in a bunch because she's not afraid to step on a few toes with her moral and political views. But we can tolerate the liberals bashing Bush, Iraq, and anybody in the religious right on a daily basis.

This would be a more convincing argument if she hadn't deleted the most truly offensive threads she started.

[kcchief19]

I really, really cannot believe that people are complaining about HA's boxing. He should have been banned, not boxed.

That thread gives me braggggadocious deja vu.
I'm baffled too. I think on one level this is a clear example of how a few thousand posts earns you certain protections. If someone with 50 posts had made HA's post, they would have been gone permanently.

Ironically, much of the criticism of the mods -- Wade in particularly in this case -- for having too "emotional" of a response comes from a number of individuals who are having the same "emotional" response. That is, from people who have made it clear they were never happy with the moderation by committtee, don't like the current level of moderation, and take any opportunity to criticize a mode they can.

Racial undertones aside -- and to pretend they are not is naive -- this was a clear a case of trolling as I have ever seen, both from a "Hey, look at me" perspective and a "let's see how much shit I can stir" perspective. It's a royal flush for trolling.

[WSUCougar]

Yeah, apparently quoting a line from a movie in an attempt at humor is considered trolling now.

Whatever.
Quoting from a movie? I didn't see any quote marks or references, unless you're referring to the obscure image (I honestly don't know).

Humor? I didn't see any indication whatsoever that humor was intended or perceived. All it would have taken is a "j/k." We all use the internet every freaking day and he doesn't know how to indicate he's kidding? So instead it's trolling with the intent of stirring up trouble in a thread with someone looking for assistance.

[NoMyths]

No, but people are squawking about it here anyway, and, frankly, I'm still pissed off about the whole notion.

Seriously... what would be wrong with setting up a flamewar sub-forum for the threads that get out of control, and just move them there? Even the users that have been perma-banned could come back, and the policy would be clear - post something inflammatory, and your thread gets thrown out of the general forum. It's pretty simple. You could have tossed HA's thread there, and been done with it. Honestly, I think in that case, he was just ranting anyway... I don't get the impression that he was truly being a racist.
Because it creates more work for the board administrators, wastes more bandwith, and offers nothing of substance to the members of this community who care about it not being a douche-hole.

Seriously, the only people who seem to keep making this an issue are people who have continually caused problems for this community, and/or are married to those who have. There is a difference between political debate (even a heated one) and political trolling. There is a difference between justified anger and racist flame-baiting. Nobody who isn't too young or too dumb to understand the difference is flipping out about this, especially long-time members of this community who have miraculously managed, over the course of more than half a decade, not to disrupt things to the point where worthless threads like this have to be created about them.

So give it a rest, Franklin, and quit trying to remake this community into your version of an internet forum. You have a board of your own for that, as you ceaselessly remind us. If flere were to diagram the board members who oppose this boxing vs. the vast majority of us who quietly approved, you'd see a clear pattern emerge, and it wouldn't reflect well on the troublemakers.

You and others have made your points and the mods have been entirely too patient in responding politely too them. The end of the community is nowhere in sight. Give it -- and especially ancient, vastly justified, and better-left-forgotten history -- a rest, for all of our sakes.

[MJ4H]

How is seperating people based on race, not racism?


Because that is not what racism is. Racism is the belief that one race is superior or another race is inferior to others.

[Glengoyne]

Franklin moves in with the most successful attempt at a thread jack so far.


Also. Just what did Sov get boxed for, if it wasn't for the use of the word fagott/fagotty?

[flere-imsaho]

I have never noticed HB or flere trolling.

I tried, but failed. (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1099581#post1099581)

[Franklinnoble]

Because it creates more work for the board administrators, wastes more bandwith, and offers nothing of substance to the members of this community who care about it not being a douche-hole.

Seriously, the only people who seem to keep making this an issue are people who have continually caused problems for this community, and/or are married to those who have. There is a difference between political debate (even a heated one) and political trolling. There is a difference between justified anger and racist flame-baiting. Nobody who isn't too young or too dumb to understand the difference is flipping out about this, especially long-time members of this community who have miraculously managed, over the course of more than half a decade, not to disrupt things to the point where worthless threads like this have to be created about them.

So give it a rest, Franklin, and quit trying to remake this community into your version of an internet forum. You have a board of your own for that, as you ceaselessly remind us. If flere were to diagram the board members who oppose this boxing vs. the vast majority of us who quietly approved, you'd see a clear pattern emerge, and it wouldn't reflect well on the troublemakers.

You and others have made your points and the mods have been entirely too patient in responding politely too them. The end of the community is nowhere in sight. Give it -- and especially ancient, vastly justified, and better-left-forgotten history -- a rest, for all of our sakes.

No, I don't think I will. But thanks anyway.

Maybe I should just not give a damn anymore, but at this point, I'd rather keep on making that point until something is done about it.

The real problem is that the mod community here is too proud to take my suggestions seriously. Admitting that I'm right would bruise their egos.

Unbanning people like Suicaine, WrongWay, Jesse, and, yes, Capsicum, wouldn't hurt a damned thing around here. And it would take all of ten minutes to set up a sub-forum for problem threads. Moving a problem thread takes about three seconds. So don't give me this crap about how much trouble it would be, because that a load of garbage. We have at least half a dozen mods here who have demonstrated that they have plenty of time to pay attention to the board.

[duckman]

yes yes yes

There's about 4-5 individuals whose bannings are loooooooooooong overdue. At least two of them have posted in this thread.

It's not very nice to be talking about me like that. ;)

[WSUCougar]

The real problem is that the mod community here is too sharp to take my suggestions seriously. Admitting that I'm right would bruise their funny bone.
Fixed

[Glengoyne]

Quoting from a movie? I didn't see any quote marks or references, unless you're referring to the obscure image (I honestly don't know).

Humor? I didn't see any indication whatsoever that humor was intended or perceived. All it would have taken is a "j/k." We all use the internet every freaking day and he doesn't know how to indicate he's kidding? So instead it's trolling with the intent of stirring up trouble in a thread with someone looking for assistance.

I don't know if he was quoting a movie I have or haven't seen or not. I do know that a lot of people use that particular slang all of the time, in a variety of situations. Those situations include good natured humor.

You saw no indication that he was kidding. Why was it assumed that it was done with a particularly venomous intent? Was there any indication that he wasn't kidding?

This would be a good opportunity to review my comment that over eager mods should look for opportunities to restrain themselves, perhaps question if they are mis interpreting someone's post.

[Cringer]

Also. Just what did Sov get boxed for, if it wasn't for the use of the word fagott/fagotty?

It wasn't the word I guess, it was that he was trolling. :rolleyes:

[cartman]

Maybe I should just not give a damn anymore, but at this point, I'd rather keep on making that point until something is done about it.

But, that's part of the reason people don't cut you much slack on this, FN. You yourself have already done something about it, by becoming moderator of Sportsdigs. So people do have at least one alternative to FOFC. Why try to make the two clones of each other?

[SirFozzie]

Unbanning people like Suicaine, WrongWay, Jesse, and, yes, Capsicum, wouldn't hurt a damned thing around here. And it would take all of ten minutes to set up a sub-forum for problem threads. Moving a problem thread takes about three seconds. So don't give me this crap about how much trouble it would be, because that a load of garbage. We have at least half a dozen mods here who have demonstrated that they have plenty of time to pay attention to the board.

Unbanning wouldn't hurt them one bit. But that's because anyone with two neurons left to rub together would say "So long and thanks for all the fish" and this forum would be nothing but trolls trolling each other.

And this pretty much open and shut boxing (Not banning, boxing) proves that any action the Mods take will be yelled about and cried about. Suck it up, Francis. Deal.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I have never noticed HB or flere trolling.

Thanks for taking my back, St. Cronin!

This is just for you. . .

http://www.telegram.com/static/screensavers/photos/pats/tom_brady1024.jpg

[JonInMiddleGA]

I've probably spoken too much for SkyDog already, but he has yet to show any problems with the boxings

Sorry WM, but I'm not sure what conclusions can/should be drawn from that either. And I'm not saying that to bust your balls specifically, but since you brought it up I think it might as well be addressed too. It may very well be relevant to the larger topic anyway.

My impression, rightly or wrongly, is that he is absent from FOFC more than not at this point. Again, just my impression, that this is related to increased demands IRL that have reduced the amount of time he has to spend here. Or maybe he just tired of it. Or whatever.

But what this potentially raises would be a question of whether it would be better for him to be, in effect, an absentee owner who has handed over day-to-day operations to designees or whether it might be time to try to convince him to more formally hand over ownership to another single party.

Lest there be any confusion about what I'm trying to say, I believe he has every right and an inalienable right to make whatever choice he sees fit ... but that doesn't preclude anyone else from having an opinion about the choices he makes nor from trying to influence him in those choices.

Granted too, that I'm not sure any effort to "try to convince" would be effective (perhaps even counter-productive) but that's sort of cart-before-the-horse to determine until the notion of "would it be better" is considered.

[Franklinnoble]

Unbanning wouldn't hurt them one bit. But that's because anyone with two neurons left to rub together would say "So long and thanks for all the fish" and this forum would be nothing but trolls trolling each other.

And this pretty much open and shut boxing (Not banning, boxing) proves that any action the Mods take will be yelled about and cried about. Suck it up, Francis. Deal.

I don't think you're paying very close attention here.

For starters, I've suggested the trolling threads (all of them... including this one) get moved to a sub-forum. General forum readers don't even have to see it.

Second, this is not an "open and shut" boxing. It might be in your opinion, but I am clearly not the only person here to disagree on that point.

Third, there's a difference between "sucking it up" and being a sheep.

You're afraid of the board becoming a haven for trolls, and I'm saying we're in greater danger of it becoming nothing but a haven for anyone who is of like-mind with our little moderator community. SkyDog didn't pick anyone who would argue with him, and that's the biggest weakness in his decision.

[MIJB#19]

Because that is not what racism is. Racism is the belief that one race is superior or another race is inferior to others.So, if someone would say that he doesn't talk to people with a [insert color] skin, because they have a [insert color] skin, they're no racists? I don't buy that.

[NoMyths]

I will use the word narcissistic twice in this post.

The real problem is that the mod community here is too proud to take my suggestions seriously. Admitting that I'm right would bruise their egos. No, the real problem here is that you don't seem to be able to understand that your opinion does not reflect that of the community at large, and you are seemingly unable to accept it. You continuing to make your point isn't going to cause anything to be done except for more and more of us to get tired of hearing you, until finally you're boxed or banned for being disruptive.

Unbanning people like Suicaine, WrongWay, Jesse, and, yes, Capsicum, wouldn't hurt a damned thing around here.It would inevitably lead to the same problems that caused them to be banned from the community in the first place. And you can't see that because your personality-type is such that you're predisposed to creating the same kinds of disruptions. But look around -- the community at large is clearly content with having them gone. Again, you are just unable to accept it.

And it would take all of ten minutes to set up a sub-forum for problem threads. Moving a problem thread takes about three seconds. So don't give me this crap about how much trouble it would be, because that a load of garbage. And banning a problem user avoids 3 seconds multiplied by all of their worthless posts in the future. [/QUOTE]

We have at least half a dozen mods here who have demonstrated that they have plenty of time to pay attention to the board.
You're right -- they pay attention, and when something disruptive enough to cause real problems happens, they take action. Not everyone is going to agree with it. If enough of the community is unhappy, something will be done. But you're so narcissistic that you can't recognize when you're in the vast minority on an issue that doesn't bother 99% of us here. Clearly you haven't accepted your wife's entirely justified banning, and hey, that's on you. Maybe you should have stayed away as you intended to -- I'm sure everyone would have been happier then. But what's not in doubt is that the community is better of when these disruptive elements have been removed, and no amount of your narcissistic posturing is going to change any of that.

[Franklinnoble]

You're right -- they pay attention, and when something disruptive enough to cause real problems happens, they take action. Not everyone is going to agree with it. If enough of the community is unhappy, something will be done. But you're so narcissistic that you can't recognize when you're in the vast minority on an issue that doesn't bother 99% of us here. Clearly you haven't accepted your wife's entirely justified banning, and hey, that's on you. Maybe you should have stayed away as you intended to -- I'm sure everyone would have been happier then. But what's not in doubt is that the community is better of when these disruptive elements have been removed, and no amount of your narcissistic posturing is going to change any of that.


I think there are plenty of people here who would have no problem with the return of the banned members I mentioned. It's just the loudmouth crybabies like you that don't want anyone they can't get along with to play in their sandbox.

Perhaps you should spend a little time checking yourself in that narcissism mirror you're so fond of.

[Desnudo]

In honor of flere, although I'm sure it's not up to his quality standards, I present a Visio diagram of how the follow-up to a boxing is managed. Hopefully this will help any newcomer understand how the system operates.

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/8799/howitworks7cu.png (http://imageshack.us)

[WSUCougar]

I'm saying we're in greater danger of it becoming nothing but a haven for anyone who is of like-mind with our little moderator community. SkyDog didn't pick anyone who would argue with him, and that's the biggest weakness in his decision.
*snort*

Y'all just don't understand the pressures bein' a moderate come wit'!

[MJ4H]

So, if someone would say that he doesn't talk to people with a [insert color] skin, because they have a [insert color] skin, they're no racists? I don't buy that.
Yes, that would be discriminating because of a belief that the race is inferior. Note that saying he is discriminating by choosing only non-whites isn't valid because there is no obvious motivation about inferiority, whereas there is in your example.

Edited to add: this is really just a semantic argument that I'm not interested in. The point is that it is not hypocritical at all because running a poll for non-white women is hardly on the same level as saying africans should be caged. They are not even nearly the same, and only a stretch of the definition of racism (a really loose application of it that involves on superiority or inferiority claim) allows it to be called by the same name.

[BrianD]

I don't think you're paying very close attention here.

For starters, I've suggested the trolling threads (all of them... including this one) get moved to a sub-forum. General forum readers don't even have to see it.

That would probably cause a situation of more moderation rather than less. Many threads that aren't worth boxing and probably still worth moving to a sub-forum. Would we then have to have threads like this one every time a thread got moved?


Second, this is not an "open and shut" boxing. It might be in your opinion, but I am clearly not the only person here to disagree on that point.


Without witnessing the inner workings of the mods, we will never know if this is an open and shut boxing. Did one mod cause the boxing? Where there 50 people reporting the posts? Hard to say how big a deal it was for the forum as a whole since we only see the views of a vocal few.


You're afraid of the board becoming a haven for trolls, and I'm saying we're in greater danger of it becoming nothing but a haven for anyone who is of like-mind with our little moderator community. SkyDog didn't pick anyone who would argue with him, and that's the biggest weakness in his decision.

It has been said that most of these decisions have not come down to a 7-0 vote, and it has been said that SkyDog has intervened against the mods from time to time. Seems like they all disagree with each other from time to time.

[WSUCougar]

Seems like they all disagree with each other from time to time.
Yeah, Troy's a Broncos fan, for God's sake.

[Butter]

It's just the loudmouth crybabies like you that don't want anyone they can't get along with to play in their sandbox.

Ironic post #159 in this thread.

[Franklinnoble]

It has been said that most of these decisions have not come down to a 7-0 vote, and it has been said that SkyDog has intervened against the mods from time to time. Seems like they all disagree with each other from time to time.

Sure, they make it seem like that. But the mod forum is hidden. They have their own little club for this, and I doubt there's much dissention in the ranks.

Maybe they ought to make it read-only for the rest of us. What do they have to hide?

[flere-imsaho]

Maybe I should just not give a damn anymore, but at this point, I'd rather keep on making that point until something is done about it.

Make up your mind. (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1052330&postcount=277)

I don't think this board is going to get any more mature in that respect, and that's why I generally stay away - I'm 31 years old, and it was about time for me to grow up; I wasn't going to do it making 100 crass and sophomoric posts a day. Maybe the light bulb finally came on, and it occurred to me that I was not being the sort of role model I wanted my kids to have, even if this is just a stupid little message boar that they'll probably never read.

[Franklinnoble]

Ironic post #159 in this thread.

What's ironic about it?

I've never advocated the banning or boxing of anybody.

[NoMyths]

I think there are plenty of people here who would have no problem with the return of the banned members I mentioned. It's just the loudmouth crybabies like you that don't want anyone they can't get along with to play in their sandbox.

Perhaps you should spend a little time checking yourself in that narcissism mirror you're so fond of.
Until you decided to bring up the long-dead matter of your wife's banning, I had nothing to say on this matter. If you look at the list of those I've complained about -- HornsManiac, wignasty, Bubba Wheels, your wife -- you'll see a pattern develop. I, and folks who've been around since forever here, have a pretty-healthy habit of being able to get along with the vast majority of folks here with few problems. It's only the disruptive outliers that cause problems. And clearly whatever is wrong in your personality that causes you to be blind to these issues is affecting your perception of this one as well.

[MJ4H]

What's ironic about it?

I've never advocated the banning or boxing of anybody.

the bolded part.

[Samdari]

Yes, that would be discriminating because of a belief that the race is inferior. Note that saying he is discriminating by choosing only non-whites isn't valid because there is no obvious motivation about inferiority, whereas there is in your example.

FYI - racism is defined both as thinking that one race is superior to another and discrimination or prejudice based on race. You are making a distinction between racism and prejudice based on race, when one is the definition of the other.

[flere-imsaho]

We're totally looking at 10+ pages here. Bubba's Maximum thread is in serious danger....

Oh, and nice diagram, Desnudo. I approve. ;)

[WSUCougar]

Sure, they make it seem like that. But the mod forum is hidden. They have their own little club for this, and I doubt there's much dissention in the ranks.
I just realized you're starting to sound a little HornsManiacesque...

OHMYGOD!!! :eek:

Suddenly it all makes sense.

[Franklinnoble]

Until you decided to bring up the long-dead matter of your wife's banning, I had nothing to say on this matter. If you look at the list of those I've complained about -- HornsManiac, wignasty, Bubba Wheels, your wife -- you'll see a pattern develop. I, and folks who've been around since forever here, have a pretty-healthy habit of being able to get along with the vast majority of folks here with few problems. It's only the disruptive outliers that cause problems. And clearly whatever is wrong in your personality that causes you to be blind to these issues is affecting your perception of this one as well.

And, again, your are blind to the idea that maybe the problem is yours. The board has an ignore feature for a reason. You can't keep out everyone you don't like, but you can ignore them. I suggest you use it, and stop trying to force out people you're incompatible with.

[DanGarion]

How is seperating people based on race, not racism?
How is calling someone else a racist and following it up by doing the exact same thing you accuse the other person of not racist?

I realize these particular polls are fairly innocent, but bottom line I think any form of racism is racism, even if it's ment to promote minorities.

It's called reverse racism and unfortunately I and other caucasians have to deal with it every day. It's the assumption that because you are caucasian that you are automatically guilty of racism.

[Cringer]

Please hold all posting, I am going to go poop and don't want to miss any of the fun.

[albionmoonlight]

As a memeber of the silent majority (and I suppose that by posting this post, I have lost that mantle), I would only point out that those of you wondering if we like the way that SkyDog runs his board (which he, of course, owns) can pay attention to what we do.

We vote with our (virtual) feet. If we like it, we stay. If we don't, we leave. Are people staying? Are people leaving? Are people going to other forums (this sounds like a dig against sportsdigs. It's not. There are lots of places on the internet that are not FOFC)? Those are the questions to ask--instead of assuming that the silent majority must agree with you.

It is the free market in a very pure form.

[MJ4H]

FYI - racism is defined both as thinking that one race is superior to another and discrimination or prejudice based on race. You are making a distinction between racism and prejudice based on race, when one is the definition of the other.

If you will read the rest of that post, you will see that I covered that.

[WSUCougar]

Please hold all posting, I am going to go poop and don't want to miss any of the fun.
Please tell me you're not driving your truck at the moment...

[Ben E Lou]

I would never go into detail about any individual decisions, but the notion that I picked mods who always agree with me (or each other) is utterly laughable.

I've scanned over the points made in this thread, and my overwhelming opinion is that enough is enough. You've had ample opportunity to voice your opinions. I'm closing this thread. I plan to read this entire thread more carefully this evening, so know that your opinions in here will all be duly noted. If you've got more input to give, you can PM me. Starting a new thread to continue to beat this ridiculously dead horse will not be tolerated.

--Ben

[TroyF]

Good lord, are you kidding me? Seriously, WTF is wrong with some people?

The real problem is that the mod community here is too proud to take my suggestions seriously. Admitting that I'm right would bruise their egos.

Yeah, you know, that's why I and the other mods are doing this. It's because we have gigantic egos and are on a power trip. As a group, we've dealt out so many perma bans and so many boxing it's ridiculous, right? Oh, that's right. One permaban for WrongWay and a handful of boxings. Yeah FN, we all talk about how horrific it would be to admit you're right every chance we get. Because, you know, this forum is all about the 8-10 mods + you.

Forget the hundreds of others who visit here on a daily basis. It's about the 1% of us at the top who have power and just love abusing it.

Unbanning people like Suicaine, WrongWay, Jesse, and, yes, Capsicum, wouldn't hurt a damned thing around here.

Yeah, of course. It's not like any of these poor, innocent people had anything to do with what happened to them. They were all just innocent bystanders caught in a helpless position.


And it would take all of ten minutes to set up a sub-forum for problem threads. Moving a problem thread takes about three seconds. So don't give me this crap about how much trouble it would be, because that a load of garbage.

There we go again. It's all about the vocal minority. We need to create a forum that cares for and caters to the handful of people who cause issues. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. We waste the time of the unpaid mods (I know, my mod status is able to feed my ego and power hungry attitude, that's the sole reason I do it, I'll save you the post)

No FN, we don't need to do anything. SD can run this board however he sees fit. This isn't your board so stop pretending it is, ok?

Look, everyone. . . if you dislike a mod decision, that's fine. I'm doing the best I can and I FULLY believe all of the other mods are as well. I'm not going to say I'm above a mistake, but i don't believe one has been made thus far. I'm not sorry if you disagree with that. I'm not sorry if you think I'm an idiot that should be banned for life because I made a decision you disagreed with.

And I'll stand up for any of the mod team. This may be a news flash for some, but none of these guys are bad people. None of them want to rule the world. All of them put up with undeserved criticism, which is part and parcel with what we do. I can't convince the clearly outspoken group who hates the mod team, hates skydog and hates the world.

But I can assure you that none of the mods are doing things for the sake of doing them. We aren't power hungry freaks looking for the world.

[Ben E Lou]

Just so y'all know, I'm quite sure what happened above is that Troy was writing that long post while I closed the thread. When a mod posts in a closed thread, it adds to it.