Looking back at Team USA (WC-related)

[Easy Mac]

OK, so knowing what we know now, should we perhaps take a new look at the US's performance in the World Cup?

First off, we lost badly to the Czechs. However, they were the #2 team in the world at the time, so should we really have competed? Obviously everyone already believed we were vastly overranked (though looking back so were the Czechs)

Second, we drew with Italy. We played 45 minutes down a man, down to 9 players. Italy just won the World Cup. We were the only team to score against them during the run of play (although we didn't really score). We were the only team Italy played that didn't lose to them. We were the only team to draw a point from Italy the whole tourney.

Finally, if not for a poor refereeing decision, we looked to have Ghana at a draw. Who knows what happens if that call isn't made in the last few seconds of the half.

Was the tourney a disappointment, of course. But we lost to the #2 team, drew the champion, and lost to a team that beat the #2 team by 2 goals and needed a phantom PK to beat us. Was it really as bad as it first seemed? Can I try to get a job alongside Tony Snow?

[rexallllsc]

*I think* it was as bad as it seemed. The Czechs, a team that didn't advance, dismantled us. We never led in a game. We scored 1 goal.

When you look at who played well for the US, you can say maybe Clint Dempsey, but that's mostly because we didn't have much expectation of him beforehand.

Uninspired, poor showing, IMO.

[Joe]

OK, so knowing what we know now, should we perhaps take a new look at the US's performance in the World Cup?

First off, we lost badly to the Czechs. However, they were the #2 team in the world at the time, so should we really have competed?


They were #2 in FIFA rankings. The distinction must be made that FIFA rankings are worthless and thus, they were not the 2nd best team in the world.

[kcchief19]

Based on my limit understanding of soccer and my experience with trying to understand and appreciate soccer related to this year's World Cup, I think the U.S. must do two things to succeed on the international level:

1) Send our best players to Europe so they learn how to fall down and act hurt like a pro; and

2) Practice our penalty kicks.

[rowech]

OK, so knowing what we know now, should we perhaps take a new look at the US's performance in the World Cup?

First off, we lost badly to the Czechs. However, they were the #2 team in the world at the time, so should we really have competed? Obviously everyone already believed we were vastly overranked (though looking back so were the Czechs)

Second, we drew with Italy. We played 45 minutes down a man, down to 9 players. Italy just won the World Cup. We were the only team to score against them during the run of play (although we didn't really score). We were the only team Italy played that didn't lose to them. We were the only team to draw a point from Italy the whole tourney.

Finally, if not for a poor refereeing decision, we looked to have Ghana at a draw. Who knows what happens if that call isn't made in the last few seconds of the half.

Was the tourney a disappointment, of course. But we lost to the #2 team, drew the champion, and lost to a team that beat the #2 team by 2 goals and needed a phantom PK to beat us. Was it really as bad as it first seemed? Can I try to get a job alongside Tony Snow?



Our tie against Italy simply shows what we can do when we want to...we have to coach their will/mental abilities...not their physical ones.

[RPI-Fan]

I think it was a little better than it seems on the surface, but little more than that.

The Czech game was a disaster. Arena and the players fucked us in that game by simply playing scared.

The Italy game the ref screwed us (Pope's red was horrendous), and we gave a nice effort. Very similar to the Germany game in '02 as we were the better team for the first 75 minutes.

The Ghana game, as mentioned, the ref got us with that PK. Arena, however, screwed us in that game. He showed NO urgency. Subbing a LW for a LW in the 70th minute????? He really cost himself our tournament and his job with that game.

[Galaxy]

Biggest fact: We only had four shots on goal in all three games. The lowest of all the 32 nations.

[the_meanstrosity]

I'm with everyone else. The US's performance in the World Cup was awful. Bruce Arena is a great coach and he's done some incredible things for US soccer, but this was probably the worst job he's done as a head coach in his professional tenure.

As another poster stated, the US was way too tentative in the Ghana game. Brian McBride as your lone forward in a 4-5-1 is not going to scare anyone. He doesn't have the speed to keep the defense honest and thus it makes the midfield's job harder. This US team needed more speed up front which would have allowed the midfielders more room to operate. Instead the play in the middle was bogged down for most of the tournament.

[RPI-Fan]

Oh, also:

Even though the penalty in the Ghana game was horrendous, it doesn't really matter. Without it I suspect we would have won, possibly quite easily, but it wouldn't mean anything.

We'd go into the next round and get pumelled 5-0 by Brazil.

We needed to play to WIN the group, not get a tie or two and a lucky win.

[Buccaneer]

Based on my limit understanding of soccer and my experience with trying to understand and appreciate soccer related to this year's World Cup, I think the U.S. must do two things to succeed on the international level:

1) Send our best players to Europe so they learn how to fall down and act hurt like a pro; and

2) Practice our penalty kicks.

you forgot

3) Figure out how to market a scoreless tie into the greatest sporting event in the history of mankind.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Forget the results (which were not good anyways - 1 tie). Watching how they actually played tells you a lot. And what it says is that the play and the coaching in games 1 and 3 were terrible. Game 2 was good. You only succeed in a World Cup if you play well in all your games.

[Daimyo]

you forgot

3) Figure out how to market a scoreless tie into the greatest sporting event in the history of mankind.
Besides giving a good opportunity to troll, why did you click on this thread again?

[ISiddiqui]

A lot of blame was put on the coaching, but I think a lot has to go through Donovan as well (if not more than Arena's coaching). Donovan was the main man in the 02 Cup. This year, he was no where. He disappeared and most of the offense was supposed to go through him, ESPECIALLY in a 4-5-1 (or 4-1-4-1, whatever you want to call it).d

[KWhit]

I think it was as bad as it seemed. We scored one goal in 3 games! Against Czech, we got stomped by a team that didn't advance. Against Italy, we were given our only goal by an Italian. Against Ghana, we played for a tie when we had to win.

Horribly, horribly coached. And all of our players looked slow and tentative - almost always beaten to the ball.

It was as bad as it looked.

[cthomer5000]

It was as bad as it looked.
Yep.

[Celeval]

you forgot

3) Figure out how to market a scoreless tie into the greatest sporting event in the history of mankind.

There were seven 0-0 matches in this year's World Cup (including two decided by penalty kicks in the knockouts) out of 64 matches.

There were fourteen matches where at least four goals were scored. That's twice as many where there was a good bit of scoring.

[PineTar]

I'm so tired of low-IQ media types and in general American sports dullards who define a game's interest level solely by the scoreline. It's sad and insulting to anyone who enjoys a particluar sport. Take your Budeweiser, hunker down in your recliner and go watch souped up gas guzzlers make left hand turns for the next four hours if you don't like soccer and keep your yap shut.

[ISiddiqui]

Unfortunately they are doing it with traditional American sports as well. People don't appreciate a pitcher's duel as much as they used to, for one :(.

[Buccaneer]

Besides giving a good opportunity to troll, why did you click on this thread again?

Because I like to read leanleft.com once in a while?


The first round (http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/schedule.html) isn’t even over yet, and there have already been five 0-0 draws. Five matches in which nobody scored. In the Argentina-Netherlands (http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/match/stats.html?id=37&year=2006&month=6&day=&day) match, there were a total of six shots on goal in the match (three a side). For those keeping score at home, that’s one shot on goal every fifteen minutes (and that’s only if you ignore “stoppage time”). There were nineteen total shots taken, if you include the thirteen that weren’t on goal. So barely over one shot every five minutes, on average. When Americans complain that “nothing happens” in a soccer match, this is exactly what we’re talking about.

While I’m on this rant, there were six 1-0 matches, three 1:1 draws (nine total draws), and fourteen other shutouts (twenty total shutouts if you count the 1-0 matches). So out of forty matches played, in 25 of them, at least one team failed to score at all. That’s a staggering 62.5%! (By way of comparison, there were fifteen baseball games today, and two of them were shutouts; in all but 13.3% of the games, fans of either team had at least something to cheer for; and baseball isn’t exactly known for being the most exciting sport in the world…)

[Buccaneer]

I'm so tired of low-IQ media types and in general American sports dullards who define a game's interest level solely by the scoreline. It's sad and insulting to anyone who enjoys a particluar sport. Take your Budeweiser, hunker down in your recliner and go watch souped up gas guzzlers make left hand turns for the next four hours if you don't like soccer and keep your yap shut.

I hate Budweiser, I don't watch a lot of TV and abhor car racing in the same manner as you did in insulting those who enjoy that "sport".

[ISiddiqui]

The first round was over a long time ago, Bucc... I know it's hard, but try living in the present :p.

[Celeval]

(By way of comparison, there were fifteen baseball games today, and two of them were shutouts; in all but 13.3% of the games, fans of either team had at least something to cheer for; and baseball isn’t exactly known for being the most exciting sport in the world…)

That's the biggest difference, and what I've migrated through while becoming a soccer fan over the last few years. Goals aren't the only things as a fan to appreciate and/or cheer for. As a football fan, do you only cheer touchdowns? Or first downs, great catches, nice defensive stops... even if, eventually, they don't pay off in points?

[PineTar]

I was using an over-generalization to prove a point. FWIW, I don't mind racing and can actually watch it and appreciate its intracacies. I should point out, nowhere in that thread did I reference you. Any assumption regarding the "dullard" comment was yours to make.

[ISiddiqui]

And while scoring goals in the end goal, there are numerous exciting plays that happen during the match that do not result in goals. In the Argentina-Netherlands game that the neanderthal you linked to references, both teams had clinched their place in the next round and really had little to play for, so of course they weren't going to go for the gusto. What, you think every game in Week 17 in the NFL is exciting?

[ISiddiqui]

That's the biggest difference, and what I've migrated through while becoming a soccer fan over the last few years. Goals aren't the only things as a fan to appreciate and/or cheer for. As a football fan, do you only cheer touchdowns? Or first downs, great catches, nice defensive stops... even if, eventually, they don't pay off in points?

Great analogy :)! So Bucc, do you sit on your hands unless your team scores a TD? No matter what great plays happened on the way? :D

[st.cronin]

Bucc actually makes a good point, though: As long as Soccer is considered a second-tier sport in this country, it will be difficult to compete in the World Cup, for a lot of different reasons.

[rexallllsc]

Bucc actually makes a good point, though: As long as Soccer is considered a second-tier sport in this country, it will be difficult to compete in the World Cup, for a lot of different reasons.

Track and Field doesn't exactly have a huge following and we dominate that.

[cthomer5000]

Track and Field doesn't exactly have a huge following and we dominate that.

yeah, well olympic sports are pretty much an entirely different thing, you really can't compare them to international competiations of widely-played professional sports.

[PineTar]

Bucc actually makes a good point, though: As long as Soccer is considered a second-tier sport in this country, it will be difficult to compete in the World Cup, for a lot of different reasons.

The American media plays a big part in shaping people's opinion of the sport. Sports talk radio in Chicago spent roughly 60 seconds discussing the US-Ghana match and about 23 hours discussing Ozzie Guillen's colorful description of Jay Marioti.

And what does it say about the network's view of the World Cup when their number one play-by-play man (Dave O'Brien) for the tournament had covered a total of EIGHT soccer matches prior to the beginning of the WC?

[ISiddiqui]

Probably that the US doesn't have any really good soccer play by play men (which we don't) and that they wanted to REALLY keep Dave O'Brien for baseball (in which he demanded in his contract that he be the #1 PBP guy for the WC).

[Buccaneer]

Great analogy :)! So Bucc, do you sit on your hands unless your team scores a TD? No matter what great plays happened on the way? :D

I only cheer or jeer for the penalties. :D

[cthomer5000]

The American media plays a big part in shaping people's opinion of the sport. Sports talk radio in Chicago spent roughly 60 seconds discussing the US-Ghana match and about 23 hours discussing Ozzie Guillen's colorful description of Jay Marioti.

And what does it say about the network's view of the World Cup when their number one play-by-play man (Dave O'Brien) for the tournament had covered a total of EIGHT soccer matches prior to the beginning of the WC?
It's very much a chicken and egg situation... there are a number of things that help feed each other, and right now soccer in the USA has none of it.

1. Media attention would help get people to attend games.

2. Attendance would help generate media attention.


I think MLS can work eventually with the snail's pace they've been moving at, but it will take a long time. I think they have the potential to take a larger step forward if they can make the sport "cool" in the eyes of the public. I think they have a shot to help make that happen when Beckham inevitably joins the league. The sooner they can get him over here, the more valuable he'll be for the league long-term.

[ISiddiqui]

MLS will be getting more media attention from ESPN next year. That's because it'll be the first time that ESPN pays for MLS broadcasting. Beforehand it was a profit sharing thing, but now there are rights fees involved. It means that ESPN will probably advertise it more to get their money back on it and then some.

[MrBug708]

OK, so knowing what we know now, should we perhaps take a new look at the US's performance in the World Cup?

First off, we lost badly to the Czechs. However, they were the #2 team in the world at the time, so should we really have competed? Obviously everyone already believed we were vastly overranked (though looking back so were the Czechs)

Second, we drew with Italy. We played 45 minutes down a man, down to 9 players. Italy just won the World Cup. We were the only team to score against them during the run of play (although we didn't really score). We were the only team Italy played that didn't lose to them. We were the only team to draw a point from Italy the whole tourney.

Finally, if not for a poor refereeing decision, we looked to have Ghana at a draw. Who knows what happens if that call isn't made in the last few seconds of the half.

Was the tourney a disappointment, of course. But we lost to the #2 team, drew the champion, and lost to a team that beat the #2 team by 2 goals and needed a phantom PK to beat us. Was it really as bad as it first seemed? Can I try to get a job alongside Tony Snow?

http://users.bigpond.net.au/simpsons/mirror.jpg

[cthomer5000]

MLS will be getting more media attention from ESPN next year. That's because it'll be the first time that ESPN pays for MLS broadcasting. Beforehand it was a profit sharing thing, but now there are rights fees involved. It means that ESPN will probably advertise it more to get their money back on it and then some.

It's a start.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, they'll be growing quickly (rights fee contract with ESPN, perhaps the "Beckham Rule" gets passed allowing stars to come to the US) at a point in time where the sickest of the "Big 4" is struggling. Perhaps some inroads can be made in the (yes, small) media vaccuum (ESPN DID show a lot of hockey games when they had the NHL).

[Samdari]

I think that the US played to the level of their talent. Is that bad? I don't know. We should be disappointed in the effort displayed vs the Czechs, but proud of how hard they played vs. Italy and Ghana.

It is a testament to how much we have improved that we are now considered almost locks to qualify for the WC against the likes of Trinidad and Tobago, whereas that used to be somewhat of a struggle.

But, the US simply does not have the players to compete with the best in the world. The top teams leave players off their 23 man rosters who play in the top 4 or 5 leagues in the world. The US cannot come up with 23 who do. We don't compete with these countries because we don't send Randy Moss, LaDanian Tomlinson, DeWayne Wade and LeBron James (after they have spent their lives learning the sport). The other countries do. We're sending AAA players against major leaguers, and just like that competition, the AAA guys can compete and occaissionally win, but over time, the major leaguers would dominate.

As for "we should send our best players to Europe" - if they were good enough, European teams would get them - the money they make in the US is not even close, so I doubt many would turn down opportunities.

[Critch]

I wasn't expecting the US to do much this World Cup. I was expecting a bit of a let down this time around as most of the good players were either past their prime (Reyna, McBride, Pope) or too young to have reached their prime (Johnson, Convey, maybe Donovan and Beasley too as prime is generally late 20's). Kind of a gap between two generations.

Last World Cup was better, next World Cup will be better, this one was just at the wrong time.

I would have said this before the World Cup, but I knew somebody would shout me down as a EuroSnob for doubting the team :)

[ISiddiqui]

EUROSNOB! ;)

It amuses me how much that has become considered to be an 'insult' by the BigSoccer US faithful. Almost any criticism of the US team before the WC, suggesting Donovan should have stayed in Europe (albeit with a different league... the Portugese or English may have been better for his strengths), or simply doubting that the US had the talent and/or depth of big time Euro sides would end up in being labeled a Eurosnob. C'est la vie :D.

[Fighter of Foo]

Donovan has clearly regressed/stagnated, Beasley is/was out of form for most of the year. Reyna and O'Brien were hurt. That's 4/5 of our midfield from last year either not playing or playing poorly. We would have struggled against Japan, much less a group with three of the top 8-10 midfields in the tournament.

This was true going into the tournament, we were crap in the opening game and STILL had a chance to advance. Given the above scenario, that's about the best you can hope for.

[FrogMan]

That's the biggest difference, and what I've migrated through while becoming a soccer fan over the last few years. Goals aren't the only things as a fan to appreciate and/or cheer for. As a football fan, do you only cheer touchdowns? Or first downs, great catches, nice defensive stops... even if, eventually, they don't pay off in points?

I'd like to second, or third, that this is a great analogy. Means you have to look at the game differently.

On the other hand, if we go with points as being the most important thing, that would mean that basketball is an off the chart super duper interesting sporting event. Hrm, no, not to me, at least not the first three quarters in a game. I *might* be interested in the close finish of a game, but simply seeing baskets being scored does nothing to me...

FM

[moriarty]

I think we were killed by over expectations and a lack of depth (other than perhaps midfield) challenging the starters for playing time.

As for the shots on goal, we played basically the entire tournament with one striker ... who was hardly threatening people with his pace. Add to that the one striker forced Donovan to play more with his back to goal (by far his weaker positioning).

At the end of the day though our big stars simply did not perform. Beasley looked like he was still hitting the sauce (WTF happened to this guy), Donovan looked like he did when he was playing in Germany full time, Reyna gave away the Ghana goal, and even Keller looked shaky in goal (outside of a few big stops against Italy).

Looking foward we really need to develop a feared, pacey striker (where's all that famous US altheticism up front?), and some serious help on defense. Starting an aging Pope is not a good sign, and the whole Lewis/Chenundolo left back scenario is almost as bad. On the brightside, Wynne should step up at the right back position and Gooch should be set at one of the central spots for a while.

[st.cronin]

Would Adu have made a difference? He's pretty fast, isn't he?

[John Galt]

Great analogy :)! So Bucc, do you sit on your hands unless your team scores a TD? No matter what great plays happened on the way? :D

I saw some ESPN Page 2 writer talked about what people would say if each goal counted as 7 points. And although the writer didn't say it, we could have penalty kicks count as 3 points. So the score of the WC final was 22 to 16.

This was the pretty much the lowest scoring WC ever. If you translate a different year to football scores, you suddenly see how "low-scoring" American football really is.

[FrogMan]

Would Adu have made a difference? He's pretty fast, isn't he?

Theo Walcott is also said to be very fast ;)

FM

[MalcPow]

I agree with others that it was as bad as it looked, and maybe worse, the Italian side plays a similarly guarded game that may have kept that match (especially with all the sending off crap) artificially close. A Brazil or Argentina, or even a Germany, probably would have destroyed us like the Czechs did. Pope looked really really bad at times (and was going to get a second yellow eventually in the Italy game, he was playing recklessly and idiotically) and Onyewu seemed to learn a lot but was absolutely lost at times. Not exactly what you'd hope for from your central defense. But the big thing is that, yeah, we just don't have a great player. We have a relatively competent supporting cast, but no stars. Dempsey did seem to have a decent tourney because he would at least run at people and force uncomfortable situations for the defense, no one else was really doing that. We seemed to want to play a conservative defense-first style but we lack the skill to turn possession and a slow build-up into attacking chances and the pace up front to hit people quickly on counter attacks. I realize that sometimes a chef is only as good as his ingredients but still, the squad selection and tactics did not seem to make much sense in this tourney.

[Ryche]

I watched several games from the World Cup and enjoyed them much more than I expected. Two things that really annoy me though.

Penalties - The flopping and bitching were just ridiculous. And they end up being too important as many game winning goals come on penalty kicks or you red card someone and their team is forced to play shorthanded the rest of the way.

Shootouts - I still don't understand how the most important game in soccer every four years can be decided by a shootout. For other games, sure, no problem. But for a championship game?

That said, I'm much more likely to watch soccer on TV now than I was before. Now if only Ireland had a good team I could root for.

[FrogMan]

Shootouts - I still don't understand how the most important game in soccer every four years can be decided by a shootout. For other games, sure, no problem. But for a championship game?

you know, I used to have a problem with that too but I now see it as a contest of technical skill. Shooting and stopping penalties are technical skills. It's one player's skill vs another player's skill. Sure it's not a whole team, but hey, a couple Super Bowl have lately been decided on the foot of Adam Vinatieri... :)

FM

[BrianD]

Shootouts - I still don't understand how the most important game in soccer every four years can be decided by a shootout. For other games, sure, no problem. But for a championship game?


Can you think of a better option? You could keep playing extra time until someone scored, but after 120 minutes of running, nobody will have the legs to create a scoring chance. About the only thing you could do is slowly start removing players from the field to create a 9 on 9 or 8 on 8 game, but then teams will sit back on defense and not push anyone forward. PKs don't seem like the best option, but it could be...

[Desnudo]

Biggest fact: We only had four shots on goal in all three games. The lowest of all the 32 nations.

But they also must have had the highest conversion rate of any nation. At least they had that going for them. ;)

[Butter]

I think that looking back, maybe the tournament wasn't as bad as it first appeared, but it was still far from respectable. It was embarrassing to be a USA soccer fan.

[moriarty]

Would Adu have made a difference? He's pretty fast, isn't he?

Adu wouldn't have made a difference. He's too small, and not good enough. Give him 4 years and then let's see though. As for Theo Walcott ... he would have been a star on the US team. Oh wait, Arena would have probably still opted for only one striker on the field.

[Desnudo]

Eddie Johnson is strong and fast. It's like a broken record, but he at least should have been given more of a chance.

[moriarty]

Eddie Johnson is strong and fast. It's like a broken record, but he at least should have been given more of a chance.

Agreed he should have been given a chance (especially earlier against Ghana when we needed a freakin' goal). EJ of 2004-2005 would be perfect. EJ post injuries though is still a question mark in my mind at least.

Side note: Why can't FIFA adopt a video replay rule for diving? If the 10,000 (hyperbole) tv cameras at the game show it's a clear dive why not give the player a 2 match ban? It wouldn't eliminate all the diving (if there's slight contact it'd be tough to justify a ban) and it wouldn't be applicable until after the game (potentially too late), but it would cut down on some of the more obvious flopping that goes on. FIFA already uses video replay for retroactive suspensions for things like fighting/spitting/stomping so why not diving?

[Desnudo]

I agree. I think the problem has reached the point where it's obvious the ref on the field alone isn't enough to police the problem. The harder question is, what do you do if you implement that rule and the player's dive had resulted in a penalty that affected the outcome of the match?

[cthomer5000]

The harder question is, what do you do if you implement that rule and the player's dive had resulted in a penalty that affected the outcome of the match?

Very simple answer: you do nothing. Shit happens, and you can't go changing game results. You still penalize the guy after the fact though.

[BishopMVP]

We seemed to want to play a conservative defense-first style but we lack the skill to turn possession and a slow build-up into attacking chances and the pace up front to hit people quickly on counter attacks.Johnson, Woolf, Dempsey, Beasley, Donovan, etc. We've got plenty of guys with pace/speed to spare and decent 1v1 ability up front, they were just on the bench or playing too far back.I realize that sometimes a chef is only as good as his ingredients but still, the squad selection and tactics did not seem to make much sense in this tourney.Word. I don't know if we would have won, but I'd rather have guys like Johnson out there in a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-1-2 with wings pushing forward often and trying to pressure the defense with runs/long balls than this defensive possession build-up crap when we only have a one guy - Reyna - with good touch. Especially when we NEED A WIN and we're losing in the second half!

I mean, Beasley looked to be by far the worst player on the field for long stretches, losing every ball with a poor first touch, but he was still responsible for our only goal with a great ball to Dempsey and scored the (offsides through no fault of his own) goal against Italy. If playing ugly/scrappy soccer and getting cheap trashman goals is the way to win, go for it. It reminds me of growing up making the state finals every year playing scrappy soccer then going to high school with the same teammates and struggling to make the tournament because the coach tried putting us in a possession system we didn't have the talent for. Then beating those same teams again during the summer when he wasn't coaching and trying to force us to play soccer "the right way."

[stevew]

I watched several games from the World Cup and enjoyed them much more than I expected. Two things that really annoy me though.

Penalties - The flopping and bitching were just ridiculous. And they end up being too important as many game winning goals come on penalty kicks or you red card someone and their team is forced to play shorthanded the rest of the way.

Shootouts - I still don't understand how the most important game in soccer every four years can be decided by a shootout. For other games, sure, no problem. But for a championship game?

That said, I'm much more likely to watch soccer on TV now than I was before. Now if only Ireland had a good team I could root for.


I enjoyed the games and would be more likely to watch them in the future as well. But the "Soccer Smarts" better never be complaining about flopping in an NBA ever game ever again. It was like Dwyane Wade or Vlade Divac were out in the midfield selling some of those "fouls."

Hate the Shootout. I'd much rather see an additional 2 substitutions or something, and another 30 minutes of play. After that "Vicious Headbutt(tm)" the French only were really penalized for about 10 minutes.

[DaddyTorgo]

without reading this whole thread i must summarize my thoughts on Team USA´s performance thusly: BARF . We looked BAD.

[ISiddiqui]

The problem with 'letting them play' is someone would drop dead from exhaustion. Hell, at the end of the 2nd OT, Italy was dying.

[rexallllsc]

It's odd - why not at least bring Adu along for the trip? It's not like we used the bench all that much. Get him the experience at least.

[ISiddiqui]

Don't want to give him too big of a head... and this WC may not have been the best one to bring him too ;).

[Critch]

Don't want to give him too big of a head...

I think the horse may have already bolted on that one.

[ISiddiqui]

I think the horse may have already bolted on that one.

Heh :D.

Well, no need to expand that cap size ;).

[Buccaneer]

I saw some ESPN Page 2 writer talked about what people would say if each goal counted as 7 points. And although the writer didn't say it, we could have penalty kicks count as 3 points. So the score of the WC final was 22 to 16.

This was the pretty much the lowest scoring WC ever. If you translate a different year to football scores, you suddenly see how "low-scoring" American football really is.

Wouldn't it be more analogous to a college football game that ended up 0-0 in regulation and under their overtime rules, the final score was 15-9?

Soccer has (slowly) changed in the past and it should change again as defense is dominating. Hockey, I believe, has done it, so has baseball. I don't watch football or baseball games to see penalties or errors (real or imagined) constantly throughout the game.

[ISiddiqui]

Wouldn't it be more analogous to a college football game that ended up 0-0 in regulation and under their overtime rules, the final score was 15-9?

Soccer has (slowly) changed in the past and it should change again as defense is dominating. Hockey, I believe, has done it, so has baseball. I don't watch football or baseball games to see penalties or errors (real or imagined) constantly throughout the game.

How is defense dominating? Watch the English Premier League or the number of goals in Champions League finals of late (Liverpool's win a couple years ago being very high scoring, 6 goals total, before penalty kicks). I mean this was the lowest scoring tourney since 1990 but 2002 was a fairly decent scoring finals.

The only changes I see that need to be made is video review of diving. But aside from that, I don't see any need for rule changes to increase offense.

[Galaril]

Having Taylor Twellman the best scorer in MLS would have been a good move.:confused:

[Abe Sargent]

Theo Walcott is also said to be very fast ;)

FM


I actually read a post that made me laugh out loud. Good job!


-Anxiety

[rexallllsc]

How is defense dominating? Watch the English Premier League or the number of goals in Champions League finals of late (Liverpool's win a couple years ago being very high scoring, 6 goals total, before penalty kicks). I mean this was the lowest scoring tourney since 1990 but 2002 was a fairly decent scoring finals.

The only changes I see that need to be made is video review of diving. But aside from that, I don't see any need for rule changes to increase offense.


The Liverpool/AC Milan CL Final was uhmazing.

[rexallllsc]

Having Taylor Twellman the best scorer in MLS would have been a good move.:confused:

He would've played as much as Ching.

Arena deferred to his "stars" way too much.

[Fighter of Foo]

The problem with 'letting them play' is someone would drop dead from exhaustion. Hell, at the end of the 2nd OT, Italy was dying.

Give teams an extra sub or two every 30 minutes. Hell take a break every 30 minutes for all I care. It's no different than playing 'next goal wins' at the park or at the end of practice. If you're tired and want to go home, score a damn goal.

[ISiddiqui]

Give teams an extra sub or two every 30 minutes. Hell take a break every 30 minutes for all I care. It's no different than playing 'next goal wins' at the park or at the end of practice. If you're tired and want to go home, score a damn goal.

Yeah, one extra sub or two would really help all that much :p. You still have 5 other position players absolutely dying out there. The players run enough on the pitch for 90 mins, and then another 30 they have to go for, I can imagine that they'd all say fuck it and go home if they were told they had to go another 30 or more :p.

[Huckleberry]

Yeah, one extra sub or two would really help all that much :p. You still have 5 other position players absolutely dying out there. The players run enough on the pitch for 90 mins, and then another 30 they have to go for, I can imagine that they'd all say fuck it and go home if they were told they had to go another 30 or more :p.

I've said it before. 1 extra sub for the 30 minute silver goal extra time.

Then unlimited subs and golden goal. Let the match be decided the way soccer is intended to be played.

[law90026]

Yeah, one extra sub or two would really help all that much :p. You still have 5 other position players absolutely dying out there. The players run enough on the pitch for 90 mins, and then another 30 they have to go for, I can imagine that they'd all say fuck it and go home if they were told they had to go another 30 or more :p.

Not really, the more tired players become, the lower the standard of the game. I don't really want to see players stumbling around and not doing much.

[ISiddiqui]

So you'd make the 30 minute OT a 'silver goal'? Why?

[Easy Mac]

Give teams an extra sub or two every 30 minutes. Hell take a break every 30 minutes for all I care. It's no different than playing 'next goal wins' at the park or at the end of practice. If you're tired and want to go home, score a damn goal.

Because for the previous 120 minutes they were just kicking it around before they had to really try and score...

[cthomer5000]

Because for the previous 120 minutes they were just kicking it around before they had to really try and score...

Actually, yes. THat's exactly the freakin' problem.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Am I the only one that thinks Adu is terribly overrated and has the potential to be a bust?

[bhlloy]

Am I the only one that thinks Adu is terribly overrated and has the potential to be a bust?

Nope... he's really only a decent prospect if you believe he is as young as he says he is. I have not heard anything in the way of interest from any big european clubs and, even at his "young" age he should be lighting MLS up if he's really that good.

[ISiddiqui]

Nope... he's really only a decent prospect if you believe he is as young as he says he is. I have not heard anything in the way of interest from any big european clubs and, even at his "young" age he should be lighting MLS up if he's really that good.
Really? Because there have been rumors that ManU and Ajax are interested in his services. Of course they all deny it because Adu is underage, but when's the last time we trusted a team denying they were interested in a player? ;)

And then there was that rumor in The Times of London that Chelsea almost had Adu for a $8.5mil fee earlier this year.

[Crapshoot]

Am I the only one that thinks Adu is terribly overrated and has the potential to be a bust?

He's 17 - of course he has the potential to be a bust, like Lampey before him - but the talent is there to be very very good. It seems a tad early to judge IMO. He's never going to be Wayne Rooney or Lionel Messi - but Adu has the potential to be the best player the US has ever produced (admittedly damning with faint praise).

[bhlloy]

Really? Because there have been rumors that ManU and Ajax are interested in his services. Of course they all deny it because Adu is underage, but when's the last time we trusted a team denying they were interested in a player? ;)

And then there was that rumor in The Times of London that Chelsea almost had Adu for a $8.5mil fee earlier this year.

Like United denied they were ever interested in Jon Obi Mikel when he was underage? There is no law against contact with an underage player, meeting his parents, I'm pretty sure you are even allowed to offer them "scholarships" to your academy, you just can't sign them to a full contract. I have yet to see the big clubs fight openly over Adu like Mikel or Walcott.

And you should know that 8.5 million for Chelsea is like 500k for most other clubs ;)

I could well be way off the mark with Adu, I just think that his development is already behind other wunderkinds (even if he is that young), he's in a very weak league developmental wise and he's not even doing well in that league. I think, all things considered, he's overrated and will not be as good as advertised.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Hey Crapshoot, yeah, I've been relying on the fact that his impact has been minimal in the MLS. And guys like Messi and Rooney are 5 times the player at the same age. That makes him overrated in my opinion then. When word first came out it was like he was World Class, the next Pele for god's sake (ok, a little overstated there), but still if all we're talking now is the best U.S. player, then that's a far cry from what was being talked about before.

He just seems damn small. Short is alright (e.g. Maradonna) but he only weighs about 95 pounds. If you're short, you have got to be stocky and able to hold your position somewhat.

[ISiddiqui]

Like United denied they were ever interested in Jon Obi Mikel when he was underage? There is no law against contact with an underage player, meeting his parents, I'm pretty sure you are even allowed to offer them "scholarships" to your academy, you just can't sign them to a full contract. I have yet to see the big clubs fight openly over Adu like Mikel or Walcott.

Well there is also the whole thing that MLS wants to keep him for as long as they possible can (ie, which they interpret to be 18). I'm sure discussions the European clubs have had with MLS have revealed this desire by the league not to give up Adu until they absolutely must.

[Desnudo]

Hey Crapshoot, yeah, I've been relying on the fact that his impact has been minimal in the MLS. And guys like Messi and Rooney are 5 times the player at the same age. That makes him overrated in my opinion then. When word first came out it was like he was World Class, the next Pele for god's sake (ok, a little overstated there), but still if all we're talking now is the best U.S. player, then that's a far cry from what was being talked about before.

He just seems damn small. Short is alright (e.g. Maradonna) but he only weighs about 95 pounds. If you're short, you have got to be stocky and able to hold your position somewhat.

I agree, in a sense. If he was European, he'd be a decent prospect, but nothing more. The Nike machine has made him out to be more than he is. At the same time, most players don't develop until into their 20s, so it's a little tough to pass judgement based on comparisions with players who are peaking earlier than that. I see the Rooney/Messi types as being very good while young, but peaking earlier and retiring earlier.

[Glengoyne]

I think that the US played to the level of their talent. Is that bad? I don't know. We should be disappointed in the effort displayed vs the Czechs, but proud of how hard they played vs. Italy and Ghana.

It is a testament to how much we have improved that we are now considered almost locks to qualify for the WC against the likes of Trinidad and Tobago, whereas that used to be somewhat of a struggle.

But, the US simply does not have the players to compete with the best in the world. The top teams leave players off their 23 man rosters who play in the top 4 or 5 leagues in the world. The US cannot come up with 23 who do. We don't compete with these countries because we don't send Randy Moss, LaDanian Tomlinson, DeWayne Wade and LeBron James (after they have spent their lives learning the sport). The other countries do. We're sending AAA players against major leaguers, and just like that competition, the AAA guys can compete and occaissionally win, but over time, the major leaguers would dominate.

As for "we should send our best players to Europe" - if they were good enough, European teams would get them - the money they make in the US is not even close, so I doubt many would turn down opportunities.

I think this is a pretty good assessment of our soccer outlook now and in the near future.

[AlexB]

But they also must have had the highest conversion rate of any nation. At least they had that going for them. ;)

Actually your conversion rate was 0%, as none of the four shots went in. The OG was a cross that was sliced into his own net ;)

Difficult for me to say how the US performed - I knew from the players in the starting XI that they weren't the 5th best team in the world, but at the same time didn;t expect them to be so insipid in the first two games(didn't see the Ghana match to be fair)

I agree with the fact that you have some decent international level players, but just nothing special.

And before anybody beats me to the punch, it is true that on the evidence of this year's WC, you could quite easily say similar about England :)

[AlexB]

That's the biggest difference, and what I've migrated through while becoming a soccer fan over the last few years. Goals aren't the only things as a fan to appreciate and/or cheer for. As a football fan, do you only cheer touchdowns? Or first downs, great catches, nice defensive stops... even if, eventually, they don't pay off in points?

A great point here. The other one that springs to mind is that is it the case that a points victory in boxing can never be a great fight because there were no knockdowns or knock-outs? Sport isn't all about scoring, it's also about drama, flow, near-misses, great defence, anticipation, etc...

[moriarty]

Actually your conversion rate was 0%, as none of the four shots went in. The OG was a cross that was sliced into his own net ;)


I could have swore I saw Dempsey kick in a Beasley cross ... or are you only talking about the Italian game?

[AlexB]

I could have swore I saw Dempsey kick in a Beasley cross ... or are you only talking about the Italian game?

Ah yeah - see above: didn;t see the Ghana game. My bad :)

[ISiddiqui]

Actually your conversion rate was 0%, as none of the four shots went in. The OG was a cross that was sliced into his own net ;)

You are forgetting the goal that was scored against Ghana.

[moriarty]

He just seems damn small. Short is alright (e.g. Maradonna) but he only weighs about 95 pounds. If you're short, you have got to be stocky and able to hold your position somewhat.

I agree fully with this. His problem is he doesn't have Walcott (insert England joke here) speed, and he is way too easily muscled off the ball due to his size.

The last Under21 tournament (or was it under 19?) was the most telling. He was supposed to be one of the star players, and he peformed lousy. Granted he was one of the youngest players in the tourney, but up to that point he was dominating against older kids.

I really can't believe there are that many European teams fighting for him at this point.

[Critch]

The last Under21 tournament (or was it under 19?) was the most telling. He was supposed to be one of the star players, and he peformed lousy. Granted he was one of the youngest players in the tourney, but up to that point he was dominating against older kids.

It was under 19. He looked out of his depth, his game was mainly running with the ball til he lost it then throwing himself to the ground in the hopes of a free kick.

I think the main problem is that he needs to be slowly groomed, but he appears to believe the hype and thinks he's a star already.

[moriarty]

It was under 19. He looked out of his depth, his game was mainly running with the ball til he lost it then throwing himself to the ground in the hopes of a free kick.

I think the main problem is that he needs to be slowly groomed, but he appears to believe the hype and thinks he's a star already.

Agreed on all accounts.

[Desnudo]

I agree fully with this. His problem is he doesn't have Walcott (insert England joke here) speed, and he is way too easily muscled off the ball due to his size.

The last Under21 tournament (or was it under 19?) was the most telling. He was supposed to be one of the star players, and he peformed lousy. Granted he was one of the youngest players in the tourney, but up to that point he was dominating against older kids.

I really can't believe there are that many European teams fighting for him at this point.

I'm sure the American marketing potential is a big factor.

[MalcPow]

His problem is he doesn't have Walcott (insert England joke here) speed, and he is way too easily muscled off the ball due to his size.

Both points are all too true. The other problem is that people talk as though Adu should be dominating the MLS because it's a lesser league, and that may be true but it's also a more physical league that exposes his biggest weakness, strength on the ball. He is skilled, and in space he is dangerous, but that's neutralized in large part by the style of play. He might actually be a better player over in a European league where his technique and touch would be more valuable, and where he might be surrounded by players that might actually be able to create space for him through their own skill. In the games I've seen him play he tries to do too much, and can't overcome the physical play. The upside is still there for him to be a very good player, not a Ronaldinho or Maradona, but a Deco or something.

[Desnudo]

I don't think any US-born player will become like Ronaldinho or Maradona. We just don't have the flair/joy for the game. If he becomes like Donovan, but with determination and drive, I think we should be happy.

[FrogMan]

I don't think any US-born player will become like Ronaldinho or Maradona. We just don't have the flair/joy for the game. If he becomes like Donovan, but with determination and drive, I think we should be happy.

not to nitpick but, oh what the heck, wasn't Adu born in Ghana? So technically, he could have flair ;)

FM

[Desnudo]

not to nitpick but, oh what the heck, wasn't Adu born in Ghana? So technically, he could have flair ;)

FM

They should have shipped him back over there until he was 16. How old was he when he came over, eight?

[Easy Mac]

Like United denied they were ever interested in Jon Obi Mikel when he was underage? There is no law against contact with an underage player, meeting his parents, I'm pretty sure you are even allowed to offer them "scholarships" to your academy, you just can't sign them to a full contract. I have yet to see the big clubs fight openly over Adu like Mikel or Walcott.

I thought there was a rule FIFA instituted that said foreign players couldn't be purchased from a different country until they were 18 (or it may have been once they stop being 17, not sure).

I think this is the rule for players under 18:
a) Player's parents can move to the country for non-footballing reasons
b) The transfer takes place within the EU (lots of other conditions, but since Adu is in US, it doesn't apply
c)Player lives within 50-100 km of the other country's border (and other conditions)

Adu fits none of these.

http://www.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/Status_Transfer_EN.pdf

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, Klinsmann resigned from Germany, so that should make things interesting if he took the US job as rumored, eh? :D

[Desnudo]

Lord I hope so. Not so much because I think we must have a foreign coach, but I can't think of too many coaches off the top of my head in his class that are also looking for jobs.

[TazFTW]

Sven. ;)

[Crapshoot]

Roffle. I actually think Sven would be great for the US, but that's not going to happen. Klinsmann said he's not interested in the US job, but that may just be posturing thing.

[daedalus]

Theo Walcott is also said to be very fast ;)Except there's an actual chance of Theo being the age he and his parents claims he is.

That and, by most accounts, Theo has a good head on his shoulder and will likely continue to work hard instead of reading his press clippings. And, were his transfer structured decently, would have probably gotten some game time against high level competition in the form of the Premiership and/or the Champion's League already.

But I obviously have an Arsenal bias. :D

[Critch]

Except there's an actual chance of Theo being the age he and his parents claims he is.

Adu has been in the US Soccer Academy thing since he was 11 years old, so I'd guess he can't be more than about a year older than he claims. Somebody would have noticed if he was 16 and pretending to be 11, surely :)

[daedalus]

My guess would be in the 1-3 year(s) range (IF it at all exists). There was an article about a year or two ago that talked about how they didn't have a birth certificate for him until either around when they migrated or just after.

That isn't to say I don't think he's talented or can never be successful. I think he has the talent necessary, I just think he's already read too much of his press clippings and don't have the type of competition/environment a kid in an academy oversea may have. Basically, I'm fearing a David Bentley situation occurring.

[daedalus]

To get back onto the original topic . . .
I agree with those who felt that it was as bad as initially perceived. To be honest, I really don't care if they won a game. They were stuck into a horrible and an unfair group. On the other hand, the thing you CAN control is your effort and your fight. I didn't feel much fight other than from maybe Dempsey and McBride.
While I think a 4-4-2 would have suited the personnel of the US team better, I think people are way too fixated on blaming the 4-5-1 for the lack of success. A 4-5-1 can easily flip into a 4-3-3 and, given that one of the 3 "midfielders" was an attacker like Donovan, that could certainly provide offense. I think the team picked up on and adopted Arena's nervousness and conservativeness (no, that's probably not a word but it does convey what I'm trying to say!).
Although Beasley did, indeed, suck in this tournament, I think that people need to remember that this left-footed (in FM-term, Left Only) winger started one game on the right wing* and one in the middle (HUH?!). Oh, and in between, he had his coach cowardly attempted to shift the blame onto him. While I would agree that playing out of position is not an excuse to disappear from the game, I do put at least SOME of the blame on the coach who did not put his players in the position to succeed.
I don't think SGE would be good at all. I don't think SGE would add anything that isn't already there with Arena (other than newness and perceived reputation). Well, at least as long as you remember to keep secretaries away from him.*As an aside, while I am a big fan of some left-footed players playing on the right (ie, Robin van Persie), I don't think it works as well for others (ie, Beasley). At heart, RvP is a striker (whether withdrawn or out-and-out) and that's his focus. Being on the right side simply gives him a better angle to take a shot (a la SuperBob on the opposite side). Beasley seems to be a more traditional winger who hugs the sideline and tries to run by people. Being left-footed on the right-side doesn't seem to work as well for these guys. But that's just my opinion.

[ISiddiqui]

To get back onto the original topic . . .
I agree with those who felt that it was as bad as initially perceived. To be honest, I really don't care if they won a game. They were stuck into a horrible and an unfair group. On the other hand, the thing you CAN control is your effort and your fight. I didn't feel much fight other than from maybe Dempsey and McBride.Don't forget Reyna. He gave it his all.

Although Beasley did, indeed, suck in this tournament, I think that people need to remember that this left-footed (in FM-term, Left Only) winger started one game on the right wing* and one in the middle (HUH?!). Oh, and in between, he had his coach cowardly attempted to shift the blame onto him. While I would agree that playing out of position is not an excuse to disappear from the game, I do put at least SOME of the blame on the coach who did not put his players in the position to succeed.To be fair to Arena (and I think many have been very unfair to him... this is the man who dragged the US team from laughing stock to a decent team internationally) last season in PSV, Beasley played more on the right wing.

[daedalus]

Don't forget Reyna. He gave it his all.Good point on Reyna.To be fair to Arena (and I think many have been very unfair to him... this is the man who dragged the US team from laughing stock to a decent team internationally) last season in PSV, Beasley played more on the right wing.I never saw PSV this season but many said he did not have the best of seasons. Perhaps it's not coincidental?

[ISiddiqui]

He was somewhat injured for a good portion of the year. Perhaps his down year is a combination of playing hurt or on the 'wrong' side, but Arena probably attributed it to playing hurt most of the time, and Beasley probably steered him to that conclusion.

[law90026]

I'm not sure Sven would be good for USA, considering the "not outstanding" job he did for England.

[Oilers9911]

Shootouts - I still don't understand how the most important game in soccer every four years can be decided by a shootout. For other games, sure, no problem. But for a championship game?



After 120 minutes of play, the players are just KNACKERED. They could conceivably play ANOTHER 120 minutes without scoring. A game could potentially go on for hours and hours. One solution might be at the end of 90 minutes each team then is allowed an extra substitution or two to get fresh legs on the pitch.

Penalty shootouts are part of soccer. Here in North America we wouldn't decide a Stanley Cup by shootout or the World Series with a home run derby but in soccer it is known and accepted as part of the game.

[Desnudo]

Good point on Reyna.I never saw PSV this season but many said he did not have the best of seasons. Perhaps it's not coincidental?

Except for the part where he lost the game against Ghana by unforgivingly giving away the ball. Somehow he got a free pass in all the post-WC analysis. I think the US will show a great Ewing theory rebound with Reyna gone. What was their WC record in games he played in?

Not a reflection on his overall talent level or personality, but count me in the camp of those who believe the US is better off without him.

[ISiddiqui]

Not a reflection on his overall talent level or personality, but count me in the camp of those who believe the US is better off without him.

Count me in the camp that that view is nuts. We'll miss him greatly.

[condors]

Count me in the camp that that view is nuts. We'll miss him greatly.

I agree we will miss him.

[Desnudo]

Count me in the camp that that view is nuts. We'll miss him greatly.

Count me in the camp that the view that that view is nuts is nuts. Only time will tell.