Ping: Lawyers

[MalcPow]

No, I haven't done anything (*thread's potential slinks away*), this is more of a personal question. I just got a call from the law school I planned on attending in the fall and they are worried that they have "over-enrolled" their class. Apparently fewer people have turned them down than they expected, and they're offering me a full-ride (up from a 1/3 schollie) to defer until next fall. Right now it's sounding very good, and the lawyers I work with all seem to agree (but they're also giddily saying things like, "Now you don't have to leave!" so I'm sensing some bias). Basically what I'm asking is, how much did your debt affect what sort of opportunities you could pursue after school or during summers, or whatever really. This is essentially the difference between me having close to six figures around my neck three years from now or having none four years from now. I'm young enough that waiting a year doesn't seem like a big deal, so it's seeming like a no brainer. But I don't know, it's a big decision, they want to know quickly, and I want to make sure I'm not missing any angles on this. Any thoughts would be appreciated, obviously you don't have to be a lawyer, but I figured they'd relate easiest.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm under crushing amounts of debt at the moment (though I don't live all that extravagently), so I'd say reducing that debt load is normally a very good thing.

Though if it is a public school, it may not be that much of a difference.

[cartman]

It sounds like the debt angle is the one you need to consider. I'm going off the assumption that a year of law school is $20K. Is it worth a year to you to save $40K plus student loan interest off of tuition versus a full ride(based on your 3 years to complete comment)?

To me, that's like asking if you want to buy a new car now, or get the same car free in one year. If you don't have to have it right away, then the wait would definitely be worth it.

[stevew]

Reducing the debt load is good. But also earning the income a year earlier is a benefit.

[Logan]

First off, I'm not a lawyer.

But what you should be thinking about is how will you spend the year off. Seems like you're working at a law firm already and will keep that up. But will you still have your motivation to get back to school? One of my roommates was all set to go to law school last fall. About 3 days before he was set to leave, he decided he wasn't ready. Since they automatically defer you for a year, he was going to start this fall.

But once again he decided it's not for him. Now he's training to be a UFC fighter.

No joke.

So make sure you won't find yourself seriously slacking a year from now.

[MacroGuru]

My father paid for my sisters degree, I am getting ready to wrap my masters up with me being in debt close to 60K in student loans...

My sister, will be debt free, and starting off her career in Pathology here in August pulling down close to the same income I am.

She has zero student debt, I have 250 a month in payments.....

All I can say, I would rather be in her shoes....

[Celeval]

I'd absolutely defer the year for the full ride.

[RPI-Fan]

Any time I see a thread with the title Ping: Lawyers (or Doctors), the one and only correct response, IMO, is "See a real lawyer/doctor".

Finally that theory gets busted.

[RPI-Fan]

Also -- my advice is to wait a year. No brainer for me, though Logan's point is a very valid one.

[Mac Howard]

This is essentially the difference between me having close to six figures around my neck three years from now or having none four years from now.

I'm not a lawyer but that seems pretty convincing to me.

[digamma]

Debt is significant.

If you can keep yourself busy over the next year, it is definitely a no-brainer.

[molson]

You'd be completely insane not to take them up on the full ride.

[Mac Howard]

You'd be completely insane not to take them up on the full ride.

And remember - they're lawyers. So get it in writing and watch out for the small print ;)

[MalcPow]

Thanks guys, I'm definitely leaning pretty strongly toward doing it. I'll let it sit with me today and then let them know tomorrow most likely. It's a little complicated by the fact that I'm pretty bored with my job and I pretty much unplugged mentally from giving a crap about a month ago, but I can find something else, that shouldn't be what stops me from doing this. In a sick way I'm also worried that I'm going to miss out on being on campus during a national championship football season, but I'm fully aware of the idiocy of making this decision based on that (but I'm basically an idiot, so the concern's still there).

And yeah, I'm pretty covered as far as having things in writing, etc.

[John Galt]

Debt is significant.

If you can keep yourself busy over the next year, it is definitely a no-brainer.

"

I think this is especially true not that interest rates aren't as amenable to long-term deferring of the debt.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Thanks guys, I'm definitely leaning pretty strongly toward doing it. I'll let it sit with me today and then let them know tomorrow most likely. It's a little complicated by the fact that I'm pretty bored with my job and I pretty much unplugged mentally from giving a crap about a month ago, but I can find something else, that shouldn't be what stops me from doing this. In a sick way I'm also worried that I'm going to miss out on being on campus during a national championship football season, but I'm fully aware of the idiocy of making this decision based on that (but I'm basically an idiot, so the concern's still there).

And yeah, I'm pretty covered as far as having things in writing, etc.

Defer, defer, defer. The full ride makes it a slam dunk. Law school will be there. You're already locked in. Working for another year (at a law firm by the sounds of it) will only help you in the long run. Don't underestimate the value of job experience going into law school or when starting your first job as a lawyer. Almost to a (wo)man, those who had real job experience did better than those without.

Not having a debt coming out of law school really opens up your opportunities. You wont feel the pressure to get a firm job in order to pay off debts. I came out of law school with just about $100k in debt. I just finally paid it all off a couple of months ago and I've been out of law school just over 6 years.

In a sick way I'm also worried that I'm going to miss out on being on campus during a national championship football season, but I'm fully aware of the idiocy of making this decision based on that (but I'm basically an idiot, so the concern's still there).

Don't worry, Michigan will remain a national football powerhouse for years to come. ;)

[RedKingGold]

Sigh.....I wish I had your option.

$150,000 in debt = Villanova Law Degree

:-(

[Klinglerware]

As someone else with substantial grad school debt, deferring would be a no-brainer with an offer like that. In the grand scheme of things, a year goes by very quickly.

Stevew also raises a very valid point that you are losing one year of post-school earnings. It does seem like prospect theory is rearing its head again: do you take the sure thing and defer, or is having an extra year at a lawyer's income the more optimal choice? You have to consider how much you think you will be earning in the future as well as if you will be making any money during your deferral year.

Edit to add: If you are considering taking additional loans if you go right away, also consider that depending on your interest rate and repayment schedule, you could be paying much more than sticker price for something that you could have gotten for free...

[Samdari]

My wife and I pay $1000/month in student loans.

Take the full ride, but make sure you have it in writing before agreeing to defer admission.

[mgadfly]

I had to pay for 1/2 of my 1st year before going to a full ride for the last two years of law school. I still borrowed $14K each year to live on and ended up in debt. I've stretched that over 30 years and pay something like $200 per month.

I have a friend who graduated the year after me. He pays over $1000 per month even after stretching his payments over 30 years. My house payment is less than the difference between our payments. Debt sucks. If waiting a year makes it so you don't want to go to law school, then law school probably wasn't for you and you'll probably be better off doing whatever you end up doing (even if it is becoming a UFC fighter).

I have another friend that graduated with something like $100,000 in debt and went back to teaching art. I'm not even sure he bothered to take the bar. He spent six figures to realize he didn't care to be an attorney.

[albionmoonlight]

Debt is a big deal. There are lots of interesting things that you can do with a law degree if debt is not an issue--government work, public interest work, etc. And, if you do go into a firm--that much more cash in your pocket.

In addition, you will realize that your "resume life" begins after law school graduation. When we are looking for people to hire, we make sure that their college grades are OK, but, basically, don't really care about professional experience before law school. So, IMO, you now have the last year of your life where you can do what you want and not worry too much about how it looks on a resume.

You are in the cool position of having a year where you pretty much just need to make enough money to have a roof over your head--and nothing else.

What are you doing now? Sounds like working with lawyers. In D.C.. You'll get enough of that for the rest of your life. Give two weeks notice, quit, move to San Diego, and work in a surf shop for a year. Or do whatever else you want to do. Live the kind of year that you can look back on and say was fun. Once you graduate, they all expect you to start being an adult. Don't do it a second before you have to.

[John Galt]

One other thing to think about - IF (and this is a big if) you are committed to doing public service and IF (another big if) your law school has a debt repayment system for public service (more and more law schools have these now), then going right away wouldn't cost you anymore. But obviously those are big IFs you would need to be sure of before making your decision.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Give two weeks notice, quit, move to San Diego, and work in a surf shop for a year. Or do whatever else you want to do. Live the kind of year that you can look back on and say was fun. Once you graduate, they all expect you to start being an adult. Don't do it a second before you have to.

I second this advice. While I didn't move to San Diego and work in a surf shop, I temped the year between undergrad and law school. While not by any means the most exciting job(s) in the world, it paid well (around $14 an hour) and was pretty mindless. I spent most of the year just hanging out, drinking, playing video games, watching hockey, etc.

What a glorious year it was...

[MalcPow]

Don't worry, Michigan will remain a national football powerhouse for years to come. ;)

Ha, I'm kind of banking on that not being the case. I'm an Irish Catholic from the Chicago area, my old man would kill me if I even applied to UMich. :)

As a pure numbers game, for those of you that are into that sort of thing, it breaks down like this:

$35k for tuition and books per year (for three years)
$12k for living expenses (school's estimate)

$47k total per year
$141k total

These are what the loans look like:

$8.5k Federal Stafford Subsidized Loan per year (6.8% fixed rate, interest not accruing during school)
$10k Federal Stafford Unsubsidized (6.8% fixed rate, interest accruing during school)
$16.5k Private Loans (variable, 91 day T-bill rate + 2%, currently 7%)
$12k Current Scholarship per year offer if I don't defer
($35k Potential Scholarship offer for deferring, I would need to pay living expenses)

This is what my life looks like:

$15k in savings

Potential earnings if I take an evil big firm job out of school three years from now:

$145k

It starts to get a little dizzying when I crunch the numbers, not because I can't do the math, but because it stops meaning anything at a certain point. It's hard to not lose perspective on whether I should be saving or just bite the bullet, enjoy myself, and realize I can deal with it later. Potential earnings are based on what I could earn if I returned as an attorney to my current firm (the door is pretty much open), or if I found another large firm job. These are obviously pretty competitive, but it's not completely unreasonable to think those opportunities would be there. But those jobs also bring with them long hours, a lot of stress, and very little glory or accomplishment for young associates. It's corporate law, and it's a grind. I would rather not be in a position where I HAD to take a job like that to pay debt. But if you play with the numbers enough, and account for things like working summers, this decision starts to get a little less obvious, and unless I do something really interesting I'll just have wasted a year. I think it's ultimately right for me, and I'm pretty sure I'm taking it, but now I'm more of the mind of "this makes sense" than "this is amazing." (Although it is pretty sweet.)

Going to San Diego is kind of out of the equation (fiance is in Boston), but I've definitely started trying to shake some trees with friends that might be able to get my foot in the door of a cool job or two. I've started hedging around the office that I'd look at this year as a blank check to do something fun and it's been nice to see people's wheels start to turn about friends they could put me in touch with. I think I'll throw the resume out at anything mildly related to sports on the east coast and see what happens. But I'm paid really well here, I'm well-liked, know my job, can spend time posting on messageboards without checking my over my shoulder, etc., so I don't want the buyer's remorse of leaving just to leave.

And I'm a little screwed on the public interest front as you have to average your spouse's income into your own to qualify for those programs, and the future wife isn't enjoying her summer slumming for a stipend in DC at the moment. (She's not high-maintenance, or into expensive things or anything, but she works her butt off and communist ideals like self-satisfaction don't really float her boat.) So that's all of that. It helps talking this out, another thanks for the thoughts.

[digamma]

There are several of us on the board who have lived the "associate at a big law firm life." Heck, John Galt is going back for more!

While right now, you may be in the "this makes sense" mentality, my bet is that 5-7 years from now, you'll be in the "that was a great year" state of mind.

FWIW, on the numbers front, you can potentially reduce your private debt load in years two and three with the money you make from a summer associate gig--but that wouldn't be enough to change my mind.

[Grammaticus]

Look at the debt you expect to accrue if you went to school right away and compare that to your expected final annual salary as a lawyer minus what you expect to make in the year you waited. If the latter is higher than the former, you would come out ahead by going to school early.

The rest comes down to security and the type of personality you have.

Security - You really don’t know what you will make as an attorney so you are guessing. But you do have an idea based on what type of law (job) and where you practice. It is nice to have no debt and some financial advisors preach that as the primary driver. It is a greater level of security to wait. With one factor still to consider. If you don’t start for a year, what is the chance you will never start or the offer will evaporate? Are you going to apply to any backup schools in the waiting period so you have someplace to go if the current offer is pulled?

Personality – Some people are aggressive and ambitious about getting things done. When that type of person makes up their mind about something, they really want to get in the game and start winning right away. No sitting on the bench for people like that. Others can also be ambitious but are not so driven and prefer a slower pace and higher sense of consistency in their lives. Obviously there are other factors of personality, these are just some examples.

Ask yourself what type of person you are and why you want to be an attorney? That may help you make that decision.

[John Galt]

There are several of us on the board who have lived the "associate at a big law firm life." Heck, John Galt is going back for more!

While right now, you may be in the "this makes sense" mentality, my bet is that 5-7 years from now, you'll be in the "that was a great year" state of mind.

I couldn't agree with this more. And it helps me remember how sad it is that I am going back for more. :(

[MalcPow]

There are several of us on the board who have lived the "associate at a big law firm life." Heck, John Galt is going back for more!

While right now, you may be in the "this makes sense" mentality, my bet is that 5-7 years from now, you'll be in the "that was a great year" state of mind.

FWIW, on the numbers front, you can potentially reduce your private debt load in years two and three with the money you make from a summer associate gig--but that wouldn't be enough to change my mind.

Yeah, you're probably right. I think I'm in that phase of thinking where I'm trying to find clever ways to create a "catch," when I'm looking at a pretty obviously lopsided decision.

Look at the debt you expect to accrue if you went to school right away and compare that to your expected final annual salary as a lawyer minus what you expect to make in the year you waited. If the latter is higher than the former, you would come out ahead by going to school early.

Yeah it's a little more complicated because I don't (and can't really) have all the information I need to put those things into hard numbers, it all depends on what I do so it's a matter of buying some future flexibility vs locking into a more limited set of options. Like with a lot of things, I don't know if there's a truly "bad" decision I could make here, it'll all depend on following through and good execution.

Edit to add: They can't pull the offer really. They're pretty much bound. I would be too if I tried to go to a different school next year, but it probably would not be worth it for them to do anything about it.

[Grammaticus]

Yeah it's a little more complicated because I don't (and can't really) have all the information I need to put those things into hard numbers, it all depends on what I do so it's a matter of buying some future flexibility vs locking into a more limited set of options. Like with a lot of things, I don't know if there's a truly "bad" decision I could make here, it'll all depend on following through and good execution.

Edit to add: They can't pull the offer really. They're pretty much bound. I would be too if I tried to go to a different school next year, but it probably would not be worth it for them to do anything about it.
Well, good luck. I'm sure either way you will be happy once the decision is made.

[MalcPow]

Just as an update, I went ahead and decided to defer. Now I just need to figure out what the hell to do for a year. :)

Thanks again to everybody who weighed in.

[Franklinnoble]

Good decision.

Get a job someplace cool. Like Home Depot or something. Have a little fun with it.