FOFC Builds a Baseball Team

[WSUCougar]

Okay, here’s the deal. You guys build a “starting nine” from current MLB players, aiming for the best team you can field in all respects for a one-game scenario.

But here’s the catch. You only have 50 points to spend on the nine players. Players will be given a point value of 1-10, with 10 being a superstar and 1 being a scrub. I will be the assigner and final judge of point values, although I will solicit honest assessments from the rest of you. The idea is not to cheat the system, but to get the best bang for the buck from your nine guys, so let’s all go at it with that spirit in mind. Hopefully, the fun will be in the discussion and strategy.

1B
2B
SS
3B
OF
OF
OF
C
SP

===================================================

Current Suggestions (value locked if asterisk*)

1B:
Pujols [10]*
Overbay [5/6]

2B:
Vidro [6]
Castillo [5/6]
Valentin [4]
Kinsler [2/3]

3B:
ARod [10]*
Wright [9]
Zimmerman [5/6]
Encarnacion [2/3]

SS:
Reyes [8]*
Eckstein [6]

OF:
Beltran [9]
Vlad [9]
Dye [8]
Abreu [8]
Dunn [6]
Edmonds [6]
Sizemore [5/6]
Granderson [5]
Podsednik [5]
DeJesus [2/3]

C:
Mauer [9]
B. Molina [3]
R. Martin [1/2]
Varitek [?]

P
Santana [10]*
Liriano [8]
Glavine [7]

[MikeVic]

How do we know the point values...? Do we make a team and then hope they fall under the 50-point limit?

[Mustang]

How do we know the point values...? Do we make a team and then hope they fall under the 50-point limit?

Or have to rework if it doesn't fall in the limit?

[WSUCougar]

How do we know the point values...? Do we make a team and then hope they fall under the 50-point limit?
What I'd recommend is suggesting players and what you think they're point value should be, and I will check in as often as I can to verify or discuss the values.

Also, from a participation perspective, I personally think the pitcher should be a 9 or 10 value guy. Pitching wins games. :)

[Lathum]

so do we post our teams in the thread or pm them to you?

[WSUCougar]

so do we post our teams in the thread or pm them to you?
Post them here. Discuss them.

To clarify, it's not a contest between you guys, it's a joint effort. :cool:

[Lathum]

OK, I'll give it a go

1B-Overbay 3pts- good average, average power
2B- Jose Valentine-2pts- lots of K's, some pop
SS-Jose Reyes-7pts- high energy, lots of runs, sb's
3B-Wright-8pts- great average, power and some speed to boot
OF- Dye-7pts- good power and rbi
OF- Sizemore-5pts- nice all around player
OF- Podsednik-5pts- good speed, runs. no power
C- Varitek-3pts- below average at best
SP- Liriano-10pts- best young pitcher in baseball

Lineup

Reyes
Podsednik
Overbay
Dye
Wright
Sizemore
Valintine
Varitek

[Vince]

1B - Chad Tracy - a decent bit of pop, shouldn't be too expensive. 5 Points
2B - Luis Castillo - Great Defense, good speed. Lack of offense hurts. 2 Points
SS - Omar Vizquel - Great Defense, decent speed. Not much offense. 2 Points
3B - David Wright - An all-around package. Great Defense AND Offense. 8 Points
OF - Bobby Abreu - He truly does it all...defense, power, speed. 8 Points
OF - Ichiro Suzuki - I still need a leadoff man. 8 Points (Would be 10 but for the lack of power)
OF - Adam Dunn - A nice powerful bat would be nice too. 6 Points
C - Eliezer Alfonzo - A scrub to fill out the lineup. Rookie who has shown some promise for the Giants. 1 Point
SP - Johan Santana - You need an Ace. 10 Points

Lineup:
1. Ichiro, RF
2. Castillo, 2B
3. Wright, 3B
4. Dunn, LF
5. Abreu, CF
6. Tracy, 1B
7. Alfonzo, C
8. Vizquel, SS
9. Santana, SP

I might be selling these guys a bit short, so feel free to critique :)

[JS19]

Quickly, off the top of my head, you could possibly throw Kevin Youkalalee guy from Boston at 1B or Brian Roberts at 2B as productive but low cost players.

[WSUCougar]

OK, I'll give it a go

1B-Overbay 3pts- good average, average power
2B- Jose Valentine-2pts- lots of K's, some pop
SS-Jose Reyes-7pts- high energy, lots of runs, sb's
3B-Wright-8pts- great average, power and some speed to boot
OF- Dye-7pts- good power and rbi
OF- Sizemore-5pts- nice all around player
OF- Podsednik-5pts- good speed, runs. no power
C- Varitek-3pts- below average at best
SP- Liriano-10pts- best young pitcher in baseball
I think Overbay is more like a 5/6 level
Valentin has better pop than a 2, how is he defensively at 2B?
Reyes is close...maybe an 8
Wright might be a 9
Dye's at least an 8
I'll give you Sizemore, since he's so young, but he's probably better than a 5.
Okay on Podsednik
Varitek is having a down year but no way he's a 3!
Liriano is great but not yet a 10 in my mind.

[Warhammer]

I think you have to have Vlad in the outfield, a five tool guy is something ideal for the team. That or spend your 9 point guy on a stud SS.

[WSUCougar]

1B - Chad Tracy - a decent bit of pop, shouldn't be too expensive. 5 Points
2B - Luis Castillo - Great Defense, good speed. Lack of offense hurts. 2 Points
SS - Omar Vizquel - Great Defense, decent speed. Not much offense. 2 Points
3B - David Wright - An all-around package. Great Defense AND Offense. 8 Points
OF - Bobby Abreu - He truly does it all...defense, power, speed. 8 Points
OF - Ichiro Suzuki - I still need a leadoff man. 8 Points (Would be 10 but for the lack of power)
OF - Adam Dunn - A nice powerful bat would be nice too. 6 Points
C - Eliezer Alfonzo - A scrub to fill out the lineup. Rookie who has shown some promise for the Giants. 1 Point
SP - Johan Santana - You need an Ace. [B]10 Points
Chad Tracy is at 3B now, I think.
Castillo is a solid player. I'm thinking more 5/6 for him.
Vizquel's career is eerily like Ozzie Smith's. Higher than a 2.
Wright, Abreu, and Ichiro are all in that 8/9 range.
Dunn, Alfonso, and Santana are on target.

[Warhammer]

OF - Vlad Guerrero - 9 pts
OF - Jim Edmonds - 7 pts great fielder, some power, above average hitter
OF - Dunn - 6 pts
1st base -
2nd base -
3rd base -
Shortstop - David Eckstein - 5 pts average all around, great on the basepaths
Catcher - Benji Molina - 3 pts
Pitcher - Glavine - 10 pts

[WSUCougar]

Anyone take issue with spending 10 on Santana as our pitcher?

[Franklinnoble]

Come on... we can do better than this.

Nobody has suggested Jose Canseco? This is the FOFC baseball team... not Moneyball... ;)

[Vince]

Chad Tracy is at 3B now, I think.
Castillo is a solid player. I'm thinking more 5/6 for him.
Vizquel's career is eerily like Ozzie Smith's. Higher than a 2.
Wright, Abreu, and Ichiro are all in that 8/9 range.
Dunn, Alfonso, and Santana are on target.

Yeah, I think I went a bit too 'economy' for Castillo and Vizquel. Don't let his current season-long numbers fool you though...Vizquel has been an absolute suck-fest at the plate the last two months.

Vlad and Edmonds were two guys I really wanted to put on there, but decided against it. Are we going for career-long efforts, or are we going for current ability? Because I think currently, Vizquel's closer to 2, but for his career, I'd probably give him a 5 or a 6, maybe even a 7 because his defense is so good. And if it's career, I'm trading Santana out for Greg Maddux in a heartbeat.

[Vince]

Anyone take issue with spending 10 on Santana as our pitcher?

Not at all...I think SP is the slot you absolutely HAVE to spend 10. Elsewhere, we can quibble about what/where we're spending. But you need to have a stud SP.

[DanGarion]

1B Pujols 10 Points
2B
SS
3B
OF Vlad 10 Points
OF
OF
C Mauer 10 Points - which is more then I think he's worth overall. He's probably a 7.
SP Santana 10 Points

And spread the other 10 points over some replacement players. Tada. :)

[Vince]

Hrm. In a one-game scenario, I wonder if your return would be greater with a team like dangarion's -- any scrub could have a decent game, get as much superstar talent as possible, then fill in the blanks.

[MalcPow]

I like two Nats, 3B Zimmerman and 2B Vidro as solid filler guys that play good defense and can hit a little. Vidro is probably a 5, and Zimmerman a 3/4 (although he'll be better as he matures).

[DanGarion]

Hrm. In a one-game scenario, I wonder if your return would be greater with a team like dangarion's -- any scrub could have a decent game, get as much superstar talent as possible, then fill in the blanks.
That's what I'm thinking. Hell I'd even put Pujols back at third for this game, because I think his glove their would be better then a reserve we would put there.

[Vince]

At the Catcher position, based solely on this year, you have Joe Mauer, then you have everyone else. I mean, the difference between the #2 C (in my opinion Ramon Hernandez) and the #10 C (Dave Ross, Johnny Estrada, A.J. Pierzynski, take your pick) is about 5 HR and 15 RBI. Since that's the case, I think it makes more sense to pick a 1-point scrub and use the extra points elsewhere.

[WSUCougar]

Are we going for career-long efforts, or are we going for current ability?
Current ability, although career performance factors into it as well.

[WSUCougar]

At the Catcher position, based solely on this year, you have Joe Mauer, then you have everyone else. I mean, the difference between the #2 C (in my opinion Ramon Hernandez) and the #10 C (Dave Ross, Johnny Estrada, A.J. Pierzynski, take your pick) is about 5 HR and 15 RBI. Since that's the case, I think it makes more sense to pick a 1-point scrub and use the extra points elsewhere.
I agree with this. Mike Matheny might be a good option.

[Vince]

(continuing my running inner monologue)

I think, though, that you have to figure out how you're going to rate these guys. I mean, what do guys like Kenji Johjima (10 HR, 41 RBI, .287 Avg) or Mike Napoli (11 HR, 27 RBI, .286 Avg) cost? They're in their first year, but they've been fairly impressive.

[Vince]

I agree with this. Mike Matheny might be a good option.

I love Matheny, but the rumor is that his career is over :( The concussion he suffered has really rattled him, and he's not likely to return any time soon.

[John Galt]

OF - Vlad Guerrero - 9 pts
OF - Jim Edmonds - 7 pts great fielder, some power, above average hitter
OF - Dunn - 6 pts
1st base -
2nd base -
3rd base -
Shortstop - David Eckstein - 5 pts average all around, great on the basepaths
Catcher - Benji Molina - 3 pts
Pitcher - Glavine - 10 pts

:confused: With Vlad and Edmonds you have two players playing well under expectations this year. Dunn isn't exactly rocking either, but I think many would rate him higher that a 6. And Glavine as a 10 pt player!?!?

[WSUCougar]

(continuing my running inner monologue)

I think, though, that you have to figure out how you're going to rate these guys. I mean, what do guys like Kenji Johjima (10 HR, 41 RBI, .287 Avg) or Mike Napoli (11 HR, 27 RBI, .286 Avg) cost? They're in their first year, but they've been fairly impressive.
They're cheaper, given that they could be a flash in the pan and not the real deal.

[Vince]

:confused: With Vlad and Edmonds you have two players playing well under expectations this year. Dunn isn't exactly rocking either, but I think many would rate him higher that a 6. And Glavine as a 10 pt player!?!?

Dunn's having a pretty good year -- career average of .247 means that his .237 isn't that far off the pace, and he's on pace to hit more HR than he's ever hit. I'd think a guy with only power, no speed and no defense can't be much higher than a 6.

[WSUCougar]

:confused: With Vlad and Edmonds you have two players playing well under expectations this year. Dunn isn't exactly rocking either, but I think many would rate him higher that a 6. And Glavine as a 10 pt player!?!?
Vlad's got to be a 9, regardless. I agree Edmonds is lower, probably a 6. I'm cool with Dunn as a 6 unless you can sell me higher. Glavine is not a 10...not sure what he is.

[Ramzavail]

FYI - Reyes has the most points in my fantasy league and he's 7th best in the FOFC Hardcore league...I'd say at least 9 for him.

BTW - Theres no way Zimmerman is a 3/4 - He's a top 7-8 3b in the majors. I would think 3/4 is Chris Woodward

[Warhammer]

:confused: With Vlad and Edmonds you have two players playing well under expectations this year. Dunn isn't exactly rocking either, but I think many would rate him higher that a 6. And Glavine as a 10 pt player!?!?

That's why I had Edmonds at a 7. Vlad's problem this year is he has no protection, if he is underperforming than his pt value should be less than 9. Glavine is a 10 based upon performance this year.

[Ramzavail]

The problem here is that nobody will ever agree on a rating system.

[WSUCougar]

Catching up...
I like two Nats, 3B Zimmerman and 2B Vidro as solid filler guys that play good defense and can hit a little. Vidro is probably a 5, and Zimmerman a 3/4 (although he'll be better as he matures).
Oooh, I like Vidro more than a 5...maybe a 7. Thoughts?

Zimmerman, probably a 4/5.

[WSUCougar]

The problem here is that nobody will ever agree on a rating system.
Well, when all is said and done I will lock each player's point score.

[DanGarion]

Stock up on the most VORP you can in any combination and you have the best team. Anyone got current VORP numbers?

[Vince]

At first blush, 7 sounds a bit high on Vidro, but I could live with 6. He's one of those guys that you don't really hear about anymore, then look at his numbers and go "Wow. He's still pretty good."

[Vince]

I think this might be a case of the complete opposite of a fantasy draft strategy -- avoid the heck out of the positions that are talent strapped, and load up on positions where there is an overabundance of talent.

What do you think of Bill Hall? I wouldn't even know where to slot him (cheap 3B maybe?), but he's probably a good value. Anyone who doesn't play fantasy baseball or doesn't follow the Brewers has probably never heard of him.

[DanGarion]

At first blush, 7 sounds a bit high on Vidro, but I could live with 6. He's one of those guys that you don't really hear about anymore, then look at his numbers and go "Wow. He's still pretty good."
As long as his back holds up. :)

[John Galt]

I'll take a shot:

1B Pujols 10 (best player in the game)
2B Kinsler 3 or 4 points (another young player who has some potential)
SS A-Rod 10 points (assuming I can switch him back to SS)
3B Encarnacion 2 or 3 points (young player with upside)
CF Sizemore 5 points (I think he is worth more, but if that's the going rate, I'll take it)
OF Granderson 5 points
OF DeJesus 2 or 3 points (injury prone player have a career year)
C Russ Martin 1 or 2 points (solid young catcher)
SP Johan Santana 10 (better track record than Liriano and past the injury nexus)

Lineup would be

DeJesus
Sizemore
Pujols
A-Rod
Granderson
Kinsler
Encarcion
Martin
Santana

My salary range is 48-52 (depending upon what the "actual" values are), so I may need to trim a little.

edited to move Pujols ahead of A-Rod in the lineup.

[Ramzavail]

Zimmerman a 4/5, no way, since 5 would be average, I would think an average starting 3b would be Mora or Inge and Zimm is clearly better than both.

I dont mean to be on Zimm's johnnie, but thats just low balls.

[John Galt]

Dunn's having a pretty good year -- career average of .247 means that his .237 isn't that far off the pace, and he's on pace to hit more HR than he's ever hit. I'd think a guy with only power, no speed and no defense can't be much higher than a 6.

His OPS is down from last year. His OBP has slid a bit. Still, he actually has ok speed and his defense isn't the worst. I think a 7 or 8 seems more reasonable if you are looking at the past few years. But maybe others view him differently.

[Ramzavail]

Sizemore a 5? LOL

[Vince]

I think if we're going to agree that Sizemore is a 5, we have to take him at that value. I'm one of those that agrees that he is better than a 5.

[Vince]

His OPS is down from last year. His OBP has slid a bit. Still, he actually has ok speed and his defense isn't the worst. I think a 7 or 8 seems more reasonable if you are looking at the past few years. But maybe others view him differently.

I've never seen him play, so I know nothing about his speed or defense. If they aren't terrible, I can see a 7 or an 8...but they don't seem to add much to his game, so maybe not.

[MalcPow]

FYI - Reyes has the most points in my fantasy league and he's 7th best in the FOFC Hardcore league...I'd say at least 9 for him.

BTW - Theres no way Zimmerman is a 3/4 - He's a top 7-8 3b in the majors. I would think 3/4 is Chris Woodward

I put him a 3/4 because he's statistically a pretty middle of the road 3B, and I dropped a point or two because that's not exactly a premium position. I think you're giving him a little too much credit based on his potential. Or I'm misunderstanding the rankings, is the best 2B a 10 and so on down the line positionally? Because I wouldn't put any 2B's at the "superstar" level.

[John Galt]

That's why I had Edmonds at a 7. Vlad's problem this year is he has no protection, if he is underperforming than his pt value should be less than 9. Glavine is a 10 based upon performance this year.

As someone who has Edmonds killing his fantasy team, I think a 7 is pretty generous. I would gladly take Dunn over Edmonds today. As for Vlad, his OPS is .843. Come to think of it, I'd rather have Dunn than Vlad as well.

I agree that this may never work with everyone even close to agreeing on player values. I would have NEVER thought anyone would say Glavine is a 10 (even this year's performance doesn't put him near that level), so I think there are going to be some large gaps in opinion.

[DanGarion]

I think if we're going to agree that Sizemore is a 5, we have to take him at that value. I'm one of those that agrees that he is better than a 5.
It really depends on how this value is working. Is a 5 average? If it is then that means a guy that hits .260 and puts up 12-15 homers is an average ball player and Sizemore is probably a 6 or an emerging 7 (right now).

[John Galt]

I've never seen him play, so I know nothing about his speed or defense. If they aren't terrible, I can see a 7 or an 8...but they don't seem to add much to his game, so maybe not.

In 2002, he actually stole 19 bases. He was originally a 5 tool prospect, but has gotten so big that his speed has been sacrificed for power. But he still does alright in the OF.

[DanGarion]

I put him a 3/4 because he's statistically a pretty middle of the road 3B, and I dropped a point or two because that's not exactly a premium position. I think you're giving him a little too much credit based on his potential. Or I'm misunderstanding the rankings, is the best 2B a 10 and so on down the line positionally? Because I wouldn't put any 2B's at the "superstar" level.
IMO 3B is the 2nd most important infield spot (SS, 3B, 2B, 1B). You need range, reaction time, and a cannon arm.

[Vince]

In 2002, he actually stole 19 bases. He was originally a 5 tool prospect, but has gotten so big that his speed has been sacrificed for power. But he still does alright in the OF.

Wow...I had no idea. I know he had a couple of SBs this year (it's the first time he's been on my fantasy team :)), but I had no idea he had 19 before.

[Warhammer]

I agree that this may never work with everyone even close to agreeing on player values. I would have NEVER thought anyone would say Glavine is a 10 (even this year's performance doesn't put him near that level), so I think there are going to be some large gaps in opinion.

I can see Edmonds being lower than a 7, but I put heavy emphasis on defense with my CF.

Regarding pitchers, much of what they do is subjective. What is more important, ERA or wins? If the opposing pitcher only allows us one run, and I give up 2 in 9 innings, even though I had a great game, I still wasn't able to give us the win. If we put up 10 on an opponent, what does it matter if I give up 5 runs? Look at some of the guys that caught Maddux in his prime. He would give up hits and runs late in games that they had essentially won so he could get outs later in the season, when it mattered more.

[MalcPow]

IMO 3B is the 2nd most important infield spot (SS, 3B, 2B, 1B). You need range, reaction time, and a cannon arm.

Right I meant premium offensively (but 3B is probably the second most important infield spot there as well), I think Zimmerman is pretty good defensively.

[John Galt]

I can see Edmonds being lower than a 7, but I put heavy emphasis on defense with my CF.

Regarding pitchers, much of what they do is subjective. What is more important, ERA or wins? If the opposing pitcher only allows us one run, and I give up 2 in 9 innings, even though I had a great game, I still wasn't able to give us the win. If we put up 10 on an opponent, what does it matter if I give up 5 runs? Look at some of the guys that caught Maddux in his prime. He would give up hits and runs late in games that they had essentially won so he could get outs later in the season, when it mattered more.

You will find that the sabermatically-inclined among us (and there are many on this board) will argue that few if any pitchers exist that "just know how to win" or "pitch to win." The classic example of this was the Jack Morris debate. Supporters continue to say his higher ERA should be ignored because he just knew how to get the Win. Yet, the game-by-game studies of Morris's career show no such effect. I have never seen anyone study Glavine, but I would be surprised to find differently. Wins are largely based on run support over which pitchers have no control. So, I think if you really think W's matter more than ERA (or other metrics), then there is going to be an enormous gap in valuation.

[Ramzavail]

Zimmerman .287 12 59 7 swipe at the break. I dont think Im basing anything on potential, hes on pace for 100 RBIs at RFK - if thats middle of the road, what is Brandon Inge? Bag O Ass?

If Sizemore is a 5 while on pace for 25/25 and 130 runs and last year he had a fantastic year - what is Beltran? 6?

[DanGarion]

Right I meant premium offensively (but 3B is probably the second most important infield spot there as well), I think Zimmerman is pretty good defensively.
Yeah I wasn't sure if you meant defense or offense, but offesively it's probably 1B, 3B, SS, 2B. Although an argument could be made on 3B,SS, and 2B and where they should be.

[Vince]

Personally, I'm a big fan of the "Defense up the middle, offense on the corners" mentality. I want my corner fielders to be power/offense guys, and I'm willing to give that up on my middle infielders to get great defense.

How about Adrian Beltre for 3B at something like 4 points? He had one great year, but he's still got amazing defense.

[Vince]

Wow, the incongruousness of that last post is amazing. "I like defense up the middle, so how about a great defensive corner infielder?"

[DanGarion]

Wow, the incongruousness of that last post is amazing. "I like defense up the middle, so how about a great defensive corner infielder?"
Wasn't that your post? :D

[John Galt]

Wow, the incongruousness of that last post is amazing. "I like defense up the middle, so how about a great defensive corner infielder?"

You need to call yourself an f-in moron if you want to capture the full beauty of the Schmidty-schizophrenic-self-attack post. ;)

[MalcPow]

Zimmerman .287 12 59 7 swipe at the break. I dont think Im basing anything on potential, hes on pace for 100 RBIs at RFK - if thats middle of the road, what is Brandon Inge? Bag O Ass?

If Sizemore is a 5 while on pace for 25/25 and 130 runs and last year he had a fantastic year - what is Beltran? 6?

He's on pace for 100 RBI's, but among major league third basemen he's 10th in BA, 12th in OBP, 15th in SLG, and 13th in OPS. I like him a ton and think he's a good, and hopefully one day great player, but he's currently pretty, yeah, middle of the road for his position. I guess that makes him a 5 then.

[Ramzavail]

Beltre would be a 4/5, I would think.

[DanGarion]

He's on pace for 100 RBI's, but among major league third basemen he's 10th in BA, 12th in OBP, 15th in SLG, and 13th in OPS. I like him a ton and think he's a good, and hopefully one day great player, but he's currently pretty, yeah, middle of the road for his position. I guess that makes him a 5 then.
Well see if we are basing the points off the position the player plays then that changes the way the game works! :)

[Ramzavail]

He's on pace for 100 RBI's, but among major league third basemen he's 10th in BA, 12th in OBP, 15th in SLG, and 13th in OPS. I like him a ton and think he's a good, and hopefully one day great player, but he's currently pretty, yeah, middle of the road for his position. I guess that makes him a 5 then.

I'm not saying our FOFC Hardcore League is the end all, but Zimmerman is ranked 8th among 3b's, behind two guys in Figgins and Nomar who barely play 3b. I would think Zimmerman is a 7.

[John Galt]

He's on pace for 100 RBI's, but among major league third basemen he's 10th in BA, 12th in OBP, 15th in SLG, and 13th in OPS. I like him a ton and think he's a good, and hopefully one day great player, but he's currently pretty, yeah, middle of the road for his position. I guess that makes him a 5 then.

That brings up the question of whether players should be rated by position. 3B may be the deepest position in the Majors right now. 2B is the other end of the spectrum. The result is that the average 3B is much better than the average 3B. I would think it would be a mistake to make the average 2B a 5 and the average 3B a 5 because of that disparity. C and OF/1B present similar problems.

[DanGarion]

We should just do a 25 points and use the star system in OOTP!

[WSUCougar]

Point values are exclusive of position (not relative).

[Ramzavail]

Well see if we are basing the points off the position the player plays then that changes the way the game works! :)

why wouldnt we based it off the position the player plays?

[WSUCougar]

Current Suggestions (value not locked)

1B:
Pujols [10]
Overbay [5/6]

2B:
Vidro [6]
Castillo [5/6]
Valentin [4]
Kinsler [2/3]

3B:
ARod [10]
Wright [9]
Zimmerman [5/6]
Encarnacion [2/3]

SS:
Reyes [8]
Eckstein [6]

OF:
Vlad [9]
Dye [8]
Abreu [8]
Dunn [6]
Edmonds [6]
Sizemore [5/6]
Granderson [5]
Podsednik [5]
DeJesus [2/3]

C:
Mauer [10]
B. Molina [3]
R. Martin [1/2]
Varitek [?]

P
Santana [10]
Glavine [?]
Liriano [?]

[DanGarion]

why wouldnt we based it off the position the player plays?
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1196477&postcount=65
Also see previous post.

[Vince]

Current Suggestions (value not locked)

1B:
Pujols [10]
Overbay [5/6]

2B:
Vidro [6]
Castillo [5/6]
Valentin [4]
Kinsler [2/3]

3B:
ARod [10]
Wright [9]
Zimmerman [5/6]
Encarnacion [2/3]

SS:
Reyes [8]
Eckstein [6]

OF:
Vlad [9]
Dye [8]
Abreu [8]
Dunn [6]
Edmonds [6]
Sizemore [5/6]
Granderson [5]
Podsednik [5]
DeJesus [2/3]

C:
Mauer [10]
B. Molina [3]
R. Martin [1/2]
Varitek [?]

P
Santana [10]
Glavine [?]
Liriano [?]

In my humble opinion, I'd put these changes...

Sizemore = 7
Glavine = 7
Liriano = 8 (he's just been too dominant this year)

I want to put Kinsler at 4, but he's still young and doesn't have many ABs, so I can't really argue that much.

[Vince]

You need to call yourself an f-in moron if you want to capture the full beauty of the Schmidty-schizophrenic-self-attack post. ;)

Heh, I couldn't hope to match the Schmidty-schizophrenic-self-attack post. :)

[MalcPow]

I'm not saying our FOFC Hardcore League is the end all, but Zimmerman is ranked 8th among 3b's, behind two guys in Figgins and Nomar who barely play 3b. I would think Zimmerman is a 7.

That's fine. I guess I figured he might be a guy that was a little under-rated nationally, and might be a bit of a bargain in something like this. If he's a 7 then I don't think he's good value for this team, even 6 might be a little high. But he is a good glove.

[Ramzavail]

Beltran is a 9

Sizemore is an 8.

I'd put Reyes at 9.

Mauer 10 - might be TOO high, I'd say 9 tops, he doesnt have much pop.

[WSUCougar]

Sizemore = 7
How's Sizemore defensively? Unless he's "da bomb" I don't think I'll go 7 for a guy in his second full season.

[Warhammer]

You will find that the sabermatically-inclined among us (and there are many on this board) will argue that few if any pitchers exist that "just know how to win" or "pitch to win." The classic example of this was the Jack Morris debate. Supporters continue to say his higher ERA should be ignored because he just knew how to get the Win. Yet, the game-by-game studies of Morris's career show no such effect. I have never seen anyone study Glavine, but I would be surprised to find differently. Wins are largely based on run support over which pitchers have no control. So, I think if you really think W's matter more than ERA (or other metrics), then there is going to be an enormous gap in valuation.

Which is why there is so much debate regarding who the best pitchers are. We could just take ERA and settle the debate then. But, then people will argue that the stadium they play in has a huge effect, so you get ERA+, etc., etc.

My feeling with pitchers is that there is no single stat that gives the whole picture. Wins tell you what he has done, but ERA is a good indicator of future performance. A lot of wins, but poor ERA tells you that he has a lot of run support and if that dries up he will pile up losses. Not a lot of wins, but good ERA tells you that he will probably turn things around. A lot of wins and a solid ERA tells me that he is doing enough to put his team in a position to win.

So Glavine with 10-12 wins right now and an ERA below 3.5 tells me he is a pretty darn good pitcher right now, and a potential Cy Young candidate.

Bottom line for me, pitchers with more wins are better than pitchers with a few wins. But, if there is a 2-3 win difference between pitchers, I'll look at their ERAs.

For the record, I never equated Morris with the HoF. He won games, but as you point out his high ERA was a warning flag for me. That said, he was the ace on many of his teams, and he won a number of tight, pressure packed games.

[WSUCougar]

Beltran is a 9

Sizemore is an 8.

I'd put Reyes at 9.

Mauer 10 - might be TOO high, I'd say 9 tops, he doesnt have much pop.
Agreed on Beltran and Mauer. I'd like to hear more opinions on Reyes.

[Ramzavail]

not as good as Beltran but the kid is 25/25 in the bank and on pace for 130 runs. He's a top 12-15 OF in fantasy baseball and he's a five tool player and has proven it. I'd only put him at a 8 and not 9 b/c of his age. 7 is too low.

[WSUCougar]

I've added the updated player point values in the 1st post of the thread.

[John Galt]

Agreed on Beltran and Mauer. I'd like to hear more opinions on Reyes.

If you take the last 2 months as indication of Reyes's "true" value he is a 9/10. If you take everything previous, he is a 5 at best. I think he is a young player and his recent surge is an indication of "real" development, but he could still fall back. I'd put him at an 8 for now.

[Vince]

I don't know about Sizemore's defense. And I have a hard time putting a rookie at 8, but man it's hard to put Liriano anywhere else. Hell, it's tough not to put him higher.

[Vince]

I think Reyes is more of a 7 than a 9. He's got to sustain his current production to be higher.

[John Galt]

How's Sizemore defensively? Unless he's "da bomb" I don't think I'll go 7 for a guy in his second full season.

If you are going to hold that against him, I think it will definitely skew things toward youthful teams (like my proposed one). It's a hard line to draw, but I think Sizemore is pretty well established. I think he should be an 8 and growing to a possible 9 (but he isn't there yet). His defense is "+," but he isn't the best in the league or anything like that.

[MalcPow]

I think Reyes is too high, but I discount stolen bases, especially in a one game scenario like this. If we really want some speed from the SS spot we could probably get it from a Hanley Ramirez for fewer points, and not lose much in other skills.

[WSUCougar]

I don't know about Sizemore's defense. And I have a hard time putting a rookie at 8, but man it's hard to put Liriano anywhere else. Hell, it's tough not to put him higher.
I think discussing Liriano is probably moot since we are taking Santana at 10.

[Ramzavail]

I watch Reyes everyday and have season tickets to the Mets.

He's top 5 overall in the FOFC Hardcore League. Behind Ortiz, Thome, Pujols and Soriano. Fantasy wise.

He's going to win the SS gold glove this year. Best infield arm in the NL.

He's going to have 140 runs and his OBP is alot better this year. He can steal 60 bags easily and his .300 and on pace to hit 15 HRs.
He's electric. I'd give him a 10, but I could understand a 9. I wouldn't go below that.

[WSUCougar]

I don't know about Sizemore's defense. And I have a hard time putting a rookie at 8, but man it's hard to put Liriano anywhere else. Hell, it's tough not to put him higher.
I think discussing Liriano is probably moot since we are taking Santana at 10.

[John Galt]

Which is why there is so much debate regarding who the best pitchers are. We could just take ERA and settle the debate then. But, then people will argue that the stadium they play in has a huge effect, so you get ERA+, etc., etc.

I think like every other discussion we have, we have to agree to disagree. You always seem to take the position that if someone can construct a counter-argument than all sides must have something pretty worthwhile (if not equal) to say. I disagree with this assumption and in this particular case I don't think there is much (if any) support for the notion that W's tells you that much about a pitcher that wouldn't be better seen through other stats. W's are one of the least valuable stats in the baseball evaluation toolbox (and the one that led the D-backs to foolishly sign Ortiz to that ridiculous contract that they are now eating).

[John Galt]

I noticed A-Rod is listed as a 3B in the tally. If that is the official decision, I have to tinker with my roster since I have him at SS (where he won a gold glove in his last season there).

[John Galt]

I watch Reyes everyday and have season tickets to the Mets.

He's top 5 overall in the FOFC Hardcore League. Behind Ortiz, Thome, Pujols and Soriano. Fantasy wise.

He's going to win the SS gold glove this year. Best infield arm in the NL.

He's going to have 140 runs and his OBP is alot better this year. He can steal 60 bags easily and his .300 and on pace to hit 15 HRs.
He's electric. I'd give him a 10, but I could understand a 9. I wouldn't go below that.

SB skews fantasy value above real world value so much that I think that is misleading. Tony Womack was a valuable fantasy player for that reason.

As someone who has Reyes on his fantasy team, I'm certainly happy with this recent red-hot streak. Before it began, though, he barely had a .300 OBP. Now that he is in the .350 range, I think his value moves to the 9 range. The problem is that the track record isn't there yet. I expected a breakout year for him, but his offensive numbers looked really bad just a little while ago. So for now, I think a 9/10 is just too high.

[Warhammer]

If Edmonds is in at a 6, I'll take him in a heartbeat, with his arm, in a close game you might be able to pick off a runner or two at home. Ditto for Vlad.

[Ramzavail]

I think there should be some kind of basis rule, if you made the all star team you are at least an 8?

[John Galt]

I think there should be some kind of basis rule, if you made the all star team you are at least an 8?

I'll give you Redman at an 8. ;)

[Ramzavail]

SB skews fantasy value above real world value so much that I think that is misleading. Tony Womack was a valuable fantasy player for that reason.

As someone who has Reyes on his fantasy team, I'm certainly happy with this recent red-hot streak. Before it began, though, he barely had a .300 OBP. Now that he is in the .350 range, I think his value moves to the 9 range. The problem is that the track record isn't there yet. I expected a breakout year for him, but his offensive numbers looked really bad just a little while ago. So for now, I think a 9/10 is just too high.

While his fantasy value might have him a little too high, he's the most electric and corruptive player on the field on both defense and offense. I think he's better than Wright and thats saying alot.

[Ramzavail]

I'll give you Redman at an 8. ;)

He wasn't an allstar. :) He is just part of some stupid baseball rule.

[WSUCougar]

I noticed A-Rod is listed as a 3B in the tally. If that is the official decision, I have to tinker with my roster since I have him at SS (where he won a gold glove in his last season there).
You can play a guy anywhere you want, I just listed him at his current position for reference. :)

[John Galt]

While his fantasy value might have him a little too high, he's the most electric and corruptive player on the field on both defense and offense. I think he's better than Wright and thats saying alot.

I think you are definitely entering "outlier" territory when you say he is better than Wright. I think you would be in the minority on that opinion. I think Reyes has a lot to offer and I am confident in his ability to improve because of his age (and not turn into Christian Guzman who had a lot of similarities but was older to start). But right now, he has 2 months of absolutely exceptional baseball and the rest of his career is so-so to just above average.

[DanGarion]

You can play a guy anywhere you want, I just listed him at his current position for reference. :)
Like I said Pujols at 3B! :)

[WSUCougar]

Yeah, I'm going to lock Reyes at [8]. Ramz, consider him a bargain at that price. :D

[Ramzavail]

I think you are definitely entering "outlier" territory when you say he is better than Wright. I think you would be in the minority on that opinion. I think Reyes has a lot to offer and I am confident in his ability to improve because of his age (and not turn into Christian Guzman who had a lot of similarities but was older to start). But right now, he has 2 months of absolutely exceptional baseball and the rest of his career is so-so to just above average.

and how many months has Wright be exceptional? I'm a Mets fan. if Reyes has had 2 months, Wright isn't that much longer. And Reyes has shown flashes of brillance in the years that he was hurt in 03 and 04 and last year he wasn't that bad either. .280 or so, with alot of swipes and excellent D.

To make it simple, the 5 tools are simple, Reyes is a better at defense. Reyes is faster. Reyes has a better arm. Wright has more power and can hit for a better average. Reyes would take it.

[Warhammer]

I think like every other discussion we have, we have to agree to disagree. You always seem to take the position that if someone can construct a counter-argument than all sides must have something pretty worthwhile (if not equal) to say. I disagree with this assumption and in this particular case I don't think there is much (if any) support for the notion that W's tells you that much about a pitcher that wouldn't be better seen through other stats. W's are one of the least valuable stats in the baseball evaluation toolbox (and the one that led the D-backs to foolishly sign Ortiz to that ridiculous contract that they are now eating).

But there hasn't been any name calling in this one yet! :eek:

I just find that pitchers are incredibly hard to peg by just using stats. You are probably better versed than I am in all the available stats out there today though. There might be better tools, but whenever I find out about what they really measure, a lot of them seem to be made to prove why X player is better than Y player (take quality starts for example).

Its kind of the way that I look at the HoF balloting. I can't give you solid numbers, but I can tell you who I feel should be in and who shouldn't be in. Jack Morris is not someone that I feel should be in the Hall. I don't remember (even the season the Jays won the WS with him) ever thinking, "Oh crap! We're up against Morris tonight!" HoF guys have to be dominant over a period of years, and be at the top of your position in that time.

Heck, ERA and Ws do go hand in hand, by and large. If you have a good ERA, you are going to get your wins. If you have a lot of Ws, chances are you have a good ERA.

I used to put a lot of faith in ERA and ERA+, but then an oldtimer asked me, what good is having a 1.50 ERA if you are losing half your games 2-1? It is the job of the pitcher to keep the other team from scoring runs. A low ERA does you no good, if your team can't score than many runs (out of the pitcher's control admittedly). However, the pitcher can limit the amount of runs the other team scores. Ideally, a pitcher should win every game 1-0. So, not only is ERA important, but it is important to limit the team to fewer runs than your team has scored.

That is why I believe in looking at ERA and W vs. one or the other, or any other stat for that matter.

[John Galt]

and how many months has Wright be exceptional? I'm a Mets fan. if Reyes has had 2 months, Wright isn't that much longer. And Reyes has shown flashes of brillance in the years that he was hurt in 03 and 04 and last year he wasn't that bad either. .280 or so, with alot of swipes and excellent D.

To make it simple, the 5 tools are simple, Reyes is a better at defense. Reyes is faster. Reyes has a better arm. Wright has more power and can hit for a better average. Reyes would take it.

IMO, the 5 tools are definitely not equal. And there really are more than 5 tools (since the original 5 tools don't address patience and different types of defense well).

Reyes career numbers: .316 OBP/.415 SLG in 1560 AB
Wright career numbers: .386 OBP/.575 SLG in 1177 AB

They are both 23 years old.

Reyes this year: .357 OBP/.481 SLG. If he maintains or comes close to those numbers then his speed and defense matter a lot more (although Wright's defense is good as well). If he drops back to the .320 OBP range, then he is a detriment to the offense. Wright is valuable no matter what and has no real blemishes on his pro career.

I'm not denying that Reyes is a valuable player - so far this year, he is. I think that will continue (especially if his ability to get BB is not just a fluke). But there have been many players in baseball history who were free-swinging fast players who saw there performance drop off a cliff (Guzman was one example I used, but Juan Pierre is certainly one lots of people have seen this year). For that reason, I think Wright is worth much more than Reyes. If Reyes hits his full upside, the gap closes, but I still think Wright is the better player.

edit: If you are willing to use other metrics, Wright had a VORP in 2005 higher than Reyes' VORP over his whole career to that point. He just has a better track record of reliability than Reyes does.

[MalcPow]

With the idea that we've got Santana locked in...

SP Santana 10
C Benji Molina 3
1B Pujols 10
2B Aaron Miles 2
SS Hanley Ramirez 4
3B Alex Rodriguez 10
LF Jose Canseco 1
CF Mike Cameron 5
RF Francoeur 4

Not exactly a powerhouse, but that's a solid team I think. And I've got one point left if people want to adjust things. :)

[John Galt]

With the idea that we've got Santana locked in...

SP Santana 10
C Benji Molina 3
1B Pujols 10
2B Aaron Miles 2
SS Hanley Ramirez 4
3B Alex Rodriguez 10
LF Jose Canseco 1
CF Mike Cameron 5
RF Francoeur 4

Not exactly a powerhouse, but that's a solid team I think. And I've got one point left if people want to adjust things. :)

Wow, Jose is even a 1? Can't we have .3 or something like that. ;)

[WSUCougar]

Jose is free. A zero. Zilch. Nada.

[MalcPow]

Jose is free. A zero. Zilch. Nada.

I was tempted to go negative points, but I figured Santana might tire, and we'd need some relief pitching.

[WSUCougar]

I was tempted to go negative points, but I figured Santana might shrink, and we'd need some relief juicing.
Fixed

[ISiddiqui]

Wow... I can't believe someone actually said Reyes was better than Wright. I like both, especially since Reyes started to get on base... before then I was ready to kill him. Anyway, Reyes may be faster and steal more bases, but getting on base and hitting for power are far more valuable. As for defense, both are very good, and I'd say Wright may be better, though I wouldn't bat an eye if Reyes was said to be better.

[Grammaticus]

1B Pujols 10 Points
2B
SS
3B
OF Vlad 10 Points
OF
OF
C Mauer 10 Points - which is more then I think he's worth overall. He's probably a 7.
SP Santana 10 Points

And spread the other 10 points over some replacement players. Tada. :)
I think this is the right idea.

[Ramzavail]

Wow... I can't believe someone actually said Reyes was better than Wright. I like both, especially since Reyes started to get on base... before then I was ready to kill him. Anyway, Reyes may be faster and steal more bases, but getting on base and hitting for power are far more valuable. As for defense, both are very good, and I'd say Wright may be better, though I wouldn't bat an eye if Reyes was said to be better.

Wright isn't that good at defense. Wright can make the spectacular play and botch the routine play.

[ISiddiqui]

Wright isn't that good at defense. Wright can make the spectacular play and botch the routine play.

It ain't like Reyes is far behind on the error list.

[DanGarion]

It ain't like Reyes is far behind on the error list.
Errors aren't everything...

[Ramzavail]

It ain't like Reyes is far behind on the error list.

what? did you look at the stats? this is like baseball 101.

Reyes 2005 - 18 errors . 974 pct
Wright 2005 - 24 errors .948 pct
Reyes 2006 - 7 errors .980 pct
Wright 2006 - 11 errors .949 pct

Wright is nowhere near the fielder Reyes is. However, the before mentioned Zimmerman, might be .971 pct, 7 errors. Another reason why he's closer to a 7 than a 5.

[ISiddiqui]

You said Wright can botch the routine play... errors show that so can Reyes.

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, you want to be looking range factor:

Wright in 2005 had a range factor of 2.74 compared to the league 3B range factor of 2.39.

Reyes in 2005 had a range factor of 4.12 compared to the league SS range factor of 4.04.

Wright was 0.35 above the league average 3B while Reyes was .08 above the league average SS.

[Ramzavail]

Do you watch baseball? They give errors on non-routine plays often.

That statement stems from me watching Reyes and Wright the most on this forum. Even the National TV game showed that vs. the Yankees and David Wright.

[Crapshoot]

Roffle - I would love to trade with the GM who thinks Reyes is anywhere near the player that Wright is.

[DanGarion]

You said Wright can botch the routine play... errors show that so can Reyes.
Like I said already, errors aren't everything. Reyes had over 200 more chances last season, and is already almost 150 more this season. Range Factor is a big key. Reyes gets to a lot of balls and makes lots of plays. You need to be looking at range factor (don't have those stats with me right now). And now that you show the range factor Wright looks better then the average, then Reyes is. :)

[ISiddiqui]

Like I said already, errors aren't everything. Reye's had over 200 more chances last season, and is already almost 150 more this season. Range Factor is a big key. Reyes gets to a lot of balls and makes lots of plays. You need to be looking at range factor.

And if you'll note, I posted the range factors. Wright is far better compared to the average 3B than Reyes is to the average SS in range.

[John Galt]

what? did you look at the stats? this is like baseball 101.


Do you watch baseball?

Now you have gone from defending the view of a very small minority to being a jerk with those who don't agree with you, IMO.

I think it is fair to say everyone talking in this thread actually watches baseball, but maybe I'm crazy that way. And you make fun of someone for not looking at the stats when you seem to ignore all of the stats that show Wright has a much stronger track record than Reyes. If you want to argue Reyes is better than Wright, go ahead, but, IMO, there is no reason to be an ass about it.

[Ramzavail]

I apologize. The office coffee machine broke this morning :)

[John Galt]

I apologize. The office coffee machine broke this morning :)

Fair enough. And good excuse. ;)

[ISiddiqui]

Do you watch baseball? They give errors on non-routine plays often.

So all of Reyes' errors are from "non-routine" plays and Wrights are from routine ones? Do you have a creditable statistic which indicates that. I admit that Reyes has a better Fielding%, but compared to league averages for SS and 3B, it is a smaller gap that you think (Reyes in 2005 was under the league average for SS fielding pct, though he was better than Wright's numbers compared to the average 3B). However, Wright wins out on range factor compared to their respective positions.

How do we determine whether an error was given on a routine or non-routine play? And don't say you've seen them, because that doesn't fully answer the question.

[John Galt]

So all of Reyes' errors are from "non-routine" plays and Wrights are from routine ones? Do you have a creditable statistic which indicates that. I admit that Reyes has a better Fielding%, but compared to league averages for SS and 3B, it is a smaller gap that you think (Reyes in 2005 was under the league average for SS fielding pct, though he was better than Wright's numbers compared to the average 3B). However, Wright wins out on range factor compared to their respective positions.

How do we determine whether an error was given on a routine or non-routine play? And don't say you've seen them, because that doesn't fully answer the question.

Based upon the available information, I think it is fair to say Reyes is a better defender than Wright. I wouldn't get too caught up in actually trying to show Wright is better because that is a hard case to make. But the small difference between Reyes and Wright just doesn't overwhelm the offensive difference between the players, IMO

[Ramzavail]

Statistically, you've proven it wrong from the range stats. I'm just saying since I watch them a ton, Wright would botch the routine play more often than Reyes. And I think Reyes is a shoe-in to win the gold glove this year.

[ISiddiqui]

Based upon the available information, I think it is fair to say Reyes is a better defender than Wright. I wouldn't get too caught up in actually trying to show Wright is better because that is a hard case to make. But the small difference between Reyes and Wright just doesn't overwhelm the offensive difference between the players, IMO

Well, I wasn't trying to make the case. I was saying that Wright is good on defense as well, and IMO, he is the better defender, but the different is slight. I even said I wouldn't bat an eye if someone said Reyes was the better defensive player... but if you say Wright isn't that good on defense while Reyes is up there with the better defenders... that's another story.

[Ramzavail]

I dont know if Id say Wright is "good" at defense... .949 pct isnt that great, I couldn't sort qualifiers here, but hes pretty far down there in the NL

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?statType=3&teamPosCode=5&timeFrame=1&c_id=mlb&sitSplit=&venueID=&Submit=Submit&subScope=pos&baseballScope=NL&timeSubFrame=2006&&sortByStat=FPCT

Reyes is on top 5.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?statType=3&teamPosCode=6&timeFrame=1&c_id=mlb&sitSplit=&venueID=&Submit=Submit&subScope=pos&baseballScope=NL&timeSubFrame=2006&&sortByStat=FPCT

And to edit, it doesn't look like Reyes is a shoe-in to win the gold glove.

[DanGarion]

And if you'll note, I posted the range factors. Wright is far better compared to the average 3B than Reyes is to the average SS in range.
Reread my post I wasn't done ;).

[DanGarion]

Is there a site out there that lists Defense VORP? Or does anyone have some numbers handy?

[Ramzavail]

I didnt know Defense VORP existed.

[DanGarion]

Here is what I wanted to find.

As seen on Baseball Prospectus
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/reyesjo01.shtml
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/wrighda03.shtml

Fielding runs above replacement. A fielding statistic, where a replacement player is meant to be approximately equal to the lowest-ranking player at that position, fielding wise, in the majors. Average players at different positions have different FRAR values, which depend on the defensive value of the position; an average shortstop has more FRAR than an average left fielder.

Reyes 2005 16
Reyes 2006 14

Wright 2005 16
Wright 2006 0


Runs above average at this position, similar to Palmer's Fielding Runs as far as interpretation is concerned
Reyes 2005 -7
Reyes 2006 3

Wright 2005 1
Wright 2006 -8

[DanGarion]

I didnt know Defense VORP existed.
Yeah but it's called FRAR, couldn't remember the wording, but I posted some stats in my last post.

[WSUCougar]

The threadjack is now complete. Have fun, guys.

[ISiddiqui]

Here is what I wanted to find.

As seen on Baseball Prospectus
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/reyesjo01.shtml
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/wrighda03.shtml

Fielding runs above replacement. A fielding statistic, where a replacement player is meant to be approximately equal to the lowest-ranking player at that position, fielding wise, in the majors. Average players at different positions have different FRAR values, which depend on the defensive value of the position; an average shortstop has more FRAR than an average left fielder.

Reyes 2005 16
Reyes 2006 14

Wright 2005 16
Wright 2006 0


Runs above average at this position, similar to Palmer's Fielding Runs as far as interpretation is concerned
Reyes 2005 -7
Reyes 2006 3

Wright 2005 1
Wright 2006 -8

Interesting... in 2005 Wright was as good in FRAR and better at Runs above average than Reyes, but this year Wright has just sucked defensively. I wonder if he just played over his head last year or is just not doing as well as he actually is defensively this year.

[DanGarion]

I think this is the right idea.
Ok then that's our team, lets get the rest of it filled out ;).

[MrBug708]

Why not use Nomar somewhere in the IF?

[DanGarion]

Why not use Nomar somewhere in the IF?
I was thinking of a way to fit him in, he would be an asset.

[John Galt]

The threadjack is now complete. Have fun, guys.

Sorry about that. I would be happy to talk about the FOFC teams again, but everyone else kind of stopped. I didn't get anyone to respond to my team. So, I hate to be a threadjacker, but I guess I'm guilty in this case.

[John Galt]

Ok then that's our team, lets get the rest of it filled out ;).

That was similar to the basic parameter with minus Vlad. I think Vlad's numbers this year are way down and if he is a "10," I don't think he should be on the team. I think the A-Rod/Santana/Pujols core for 30 works well with 20 for the rest of the team.

[Ramzavail]

1B - Nick Johnson - 6
2B - Jamie Carroll - 4
SS - Jose Reyes 8
3B - Ryan Zimmerman 7
OF - Ryan Freel - 5
OF - Grady Sizemore - 7
OF - Rocco Baldelli - 5
C - Yadier Molina - 2
SP - Erik Bedard - 6

Reyes
Sizemore
Baldelli
Johnson
Zimmerman
Freel
Carroll
Molina

Alot of speed and great defense. Thats my kinda team.

[Ramzavail]

nobody likes my team?

[John Galt]

nobody likes my team?

No power at all. When Baldelli is your 3 hitter, you have problems. Also, I think Carroll is weak (flukish performance first time in Colorado not supported by previous stats).

[DanGarion]

nobody likes my team?
It's just too average of a team. IMO.

[Ramzavail]

I dunno if id say no power there are a couple of 20-25 HR guys sprinkled in there...but they have excellent speed and defense.

[John Galt]

I dunno if id say no power there are a couple of 20-25 HR guys sprinkled in there...but they have excellent speed and defense.

Speed doesn't get you very far in today's game and differentials in defensive quality matter less than offensive differentials (with a few exceptions). The offense you put together isn't much better than the real life D-Rays and that's not going to compete with teams that have A-Rod/Pujols/Santana, IMO. Also, since a starting pitcher affects 1 game more than any other player, I think it is a serious mistake to cut corners there. Bedard v. Santana almost gives the game away right there.

[sterlingice]

I think this might be a case of the complete opposite of a fantasy draft strategy -- avoid the heck out of the positions that are talent strapped, and load up on positions where there is an overabundance of talent.

What do you think of Bill Hall? I wouldn't even know where to slot him (cheap 3B maybe?), but he's probably a good value. Anyone who doesn't play fantasy baseball or doesn't follow the Brewers has probably never heard of him.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the "Defense up the middle, offense on the corners" mentality. I want my corner fielders to be power/offense guys, and I'm willing to give that up on my middle infielders to get great defense.

How about Adrian Beltre for 3B at something like 4 points? He had one great year, but he's still got amazing defense.

I think these are a pair of excellent strategies for this. Go get some "average" to "above average" corner guys who still give massive production, protect your middle with defense (2B, SS, C) and get a stud pitcher.

SI

[sterlingice]

Clarification: I presume we are building a team for a one year run. Otherwise, we'd have to factor in potential into ratings. So, all the comments like "I like X because he'll be good in the future" should probably not amount to much since otherwise, we'd have to revamp the ratings.

SI

[sterlingice]

Current Suggestions (value not locked)
OF:
DeJesus [2/3]


If a 2 or 3 is his final value, he should be on the team in a heartbeat. Injury prone, to be sure. Good fielder but not with huge range- ie can cover CF adequately but isn't one of those "speed" CFs brought in to cover huge territory. Good speed but only average with SBs. Works pitcher and has one of the highest pitches per AB in the majors which leads to decent walk rate and pretty good but not great K rate for a leadoff guy. Expected line of about .290/.370/.450. He's Johnny Damon with slightly less power and with less SBs but without being a complete nut.

SI

[sterlingice]

Clarification: I presume we are building a team for a one year run. Otherwise, we'd have to factor in potential into ratings. So, all the comments like "I like X because he'll be good in the future" should probably not amount to much since otherwise, we'd have to revamp the ratings.

By this token, I think a lot of the people barking up the Wright and Reyes trees are looking a lot more at potential than actual. Don't get me wrong- I'd love to have either on the team but not at the "point" prices they will command. I could have Wright at 3B... or I could pay another point and get Pujols- that's a no brainer. One is a guy who is trending upwards, another is a guy who is already there.

To try and get this back on track with the full team, I'm trying to think of some nice guys who would be "bargains" after the 10 point buy on Santana. As stated above, I think DeJesus would be a nice addition in CF, especially at that point buy, and would be a good leadoff hitter.

The next step I'd go with is to try and find some good deals at C, 2B, and SS. As stated previously, the difference between the 2nd C and 5th and 10th are fairly minimal. I wonder if the same can be said for the middle infield.

Points Distribution Plan:
10 (Santana)
11 (SS, 2B, C) - Spend low and just get some defense, and maybe some speed; probably should pick up a #2 hitter here by doing something like 2/3/5 distro as well as spots number 7 and 8
17 (RF, CF, LF)- I still like DeJesus even at 3 for CF and that would give good points to put down at the corner spots and cover two of the 3-5 spots in the batting order; Or possibly loan some points out to the next group
12 (3B, 1B)- Get that other 3-5 hitter and a 6; really, tho, with the depth of 3rd base, all 4 corner positions are fungible and the key between the 4 will be the exact players we get and what bargains can be had where we get possible 8 point performance at a 6 point price and then pay the piper on the other couple

SI

[sterlingice]

Bump?

SI