Lawmaker wants casinos to send statements to losers

[Suburban Rhythm]

This might be one of the dumbest things I've read in awhile--

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/06214/710499-100.stm

Wednesday, August 02, 2006

By Tom Barnes, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

HARRISBURG -- An anti-gambling legislator from Bucks County is once again trying to force slots casinos in Pennsylvania to send out monthly statements on winnings and losses to their most frequent customers.

Rep. Paul Clymer, a Republican, almost succeeded in getting the monthly statement measure approved by the House last spring. It failed on a 99-99 vote as an amendment to another bill.

Now he's drafted a separate piece of legislation, House Bill 1245, that would do that same thing.

The idea is to warn the spouses and families of casinos' biggest customers -- the ones who gamble the most on slot machines -- about the gamblers' winnings or losses each month, so the spouse can stop the person from gambling away all the family's resources.

At a press conference today at the Capitol, Mr. Clymer urged the House Tourism Committee, where the bill currently sits, to act on it before Sept. 27, the date when the state Gaming Control Board could issue the first slots licenses for six racetrack/casinos.

However, prospects for early action on the bill aren't good. Legislators currently aren't scheduled to return to the Capitol before Sept. 19, and the bill may not be acted on at all before the Legislature adjourns Nov. 30


I assume bars keeping tabs on the amount of alcohol patrons consume, and ISP's providing the list of pr0n websites visited are not far behind?

[Klinglerware]

It also sounds rather dumb from a federal tax revenue standpoint since gamblers would then use this to easily document, and thus, write-off their gambling losses.

[ISiddiqui]

Well they key is that he is, as the article states, an 'anti-gambling legislator'. He's only trying to get casinos to fold, and this increases the costs, and for losses, its almost impossible to find out (winnings you can make them fill out something if they cash in over a certain amount of money).

[Suburban Rhythm]

It also sounds rather dumb from a federal tax revenue standpoint since gamblers would then use this to easily document, and thus, write-off their gambling losses.

Thought of that, but why would he care from an IRS point of view?

[JonInMiddleGA]

... its almost impossible to find out

I'm kind of "hmm" about that part. It isn't easy nor foolproof by any stretch of the imagination, but maybe not quite impossible either. Here's why:

I'd bet dollars to donuts that casinos can tell to the dime how much money has been won or lost by any slot club/loyalty program/et al member based on their play while the little card is inserted into the machine.

Of course, as anybody who has ever played those knows, you don't always remember/bother to put the card in, which makes the record incomplete. And those are currently really targeted for electronic/mechanical games, not table games (where the serious money is). But in theory, if you required a "gamers card" be inserted/scanned/whatever in order for someone to be dealt into a table game or for a coin-op to function, etc., a fairly complete record could be created.

In other words, it'd be impractical, it'd be expensive, it'd be prone to any ways to get around it somebody could devise ... but it isn't impossible either, not from a technology standpoint at least.

Note: FTR, I'm not advocating the guy's suggestion at all, I was just thinking out loud a little about the issue of capabilities from a technical standpoint.

[Galaxy]

Key word: Biggest customers.

They are tracked through the card programs. Slots track each "turn" you play your spin.

Table games can be monitored by the pit boss, and many new tables having computer devices that can track each bet under each circle that is played.

[sabotai]

Well, this specific bill would only be concerned with slot machines since they are the only things that are legal (just made legal recently). There are no "real" casinos with table games in PA. (AFAIK)

[Barkeep49]

I'm kind of "hmm" about that part. It isn't easy nor foolproof by any stretch of the imagination, but maybe not quite impossible either. Here's why:

I'd bet dollars to donuts that casinos can tell to the dime how much money has been won or lost by any slot club/loyalty program/et al member based on their play while the little card is inserted into the machine.

Of course, as anybody who has ever played those knows, you don't always remember/bother to put the card in, which makes the record incomplete. And those are currently really targeted for electronic/mechanical games, not table games (where the serious money is). But in theory, if you required a "gamers card" be inserted/scanned/whatever in order for someone to be dealt into a table game or for a coin-op to function, etc., a fairly complete record could be created.

In other words, it'd be impractical, it'd be expensive, it'd be prone to any ways to get around it somebody could devise ... but it isn't impossible either, not from a technology standpoint at least.

Note: FTR, I'm not advocating the guy's suggestion at all, I was just thinking out loud a little about the issue of capabilities from a technical standpoint.
And it would be easy enough to scan it through anytime someone changed chips for money or money for chips in order to keep track of table games. Part of me suggests that rather then being a burdensome regulation this is actually a promotion of information and thus a boone to the free market, which to run properly assumes complete information. But really it is just a silly piece of legislation which is not actually targeted at the users but instead at those related to the user making it another piece of legislation which would try and improperly invade the home.

[saldana]

The idea is to warn the spouses and families of casinos' biggest customers -- the ones who gamble the most on slot machines -- about the gamblers' winnings or losses each month, so the spouse can stop the person from gambling away all the family's resources.

seriously...these are slot machines...how long would it actually take to gamble away your life's savings on a nickel slot machine?

[JonInMiddleGA]

seriously...these are slot machines...how long would it actually take to gamble away your life's savings on a nickel slot machine?

Depending upon the life savings probably not as long as you might think.

Most all the slots today, and especially microlimit slots, are capable of multi-coin/multi-line play. And from what I've seen that's how most people play them. So figure that even on a nickel machine, a .25 play isn't uncommon. Get in a groove on one of those machines, especially if you're playing with credits banked instead of physically dropping/retrieving coins on each play & it's no sweat at all to run through $50 an hour. 8 hours, that's $400 a day. If your life savings are, say, $3k, then it's gone in a week if you don't hit a significant jackpot.

edit to add: Please remember, I'm not advocating the proposal, I was just trying to answer the question you asked.

[Samdari]

Depending upon the life savings probably not as long as you might think.

Most all the slots today, and especially microlimit slots, are capable of multi-coin/multi-line play. And from what I've seen that's how most people play them. So figure that even on a nickel machine, a .25 play isn't uncommon. Get in a groove on one of those machines, especially if you're playing with credits banked instead of physically dropping/retrieving coins on each play & it's no sweat at all to run through $50 an hour. 8 hours, that's $400 a day. If your life savings are, say, $3k, then it's gone in a week if you don't hit a significant jackpot.

edit to add: Please remember, I'm not advocating the proposal, I was just trying to answer the question you asked.

$400 in $0.25 increments is a lot of bets. Most slot machines pay 95%+ back. It would take an incredible amount of rotten luck to actually lose that much in a day on the nickel slots. Almost a statistical impossibility in fact. Let alone do it enough days in a row to lose $2000. I know some people probably do have life savings that are that little or less, but if they lose it, are they really that bad off since that amount of money would be almost meaningless as far as most purposes that "life savings" are used for.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Most slot machines pay 95%+ back.

But that's 95% payback total, not per individual. Meaning that if you don't hit a significant jackpot, you're in that 5% not the 95%.

I couldn't begin to guess how many hours I've spent on microlimit machines but considering I usually play 12+ hours on a gaming day between trips to Vegas, Tunica, and the Gulf Coast, & that my average trip is 4-5 days, and that nickels & quarters are 99% of my gaming, it's plenty of hours. And yet the largest payoff I've ever hit on any machine anywhere was $78 on nickels in Reno.

Now granted, I'm much much more of a video poker player than a slot player (and I'm good about knowing when to walk away to limit my losses) but I've played more than enough to know that it's actually quite easy to end up down and stay that way.

I know some people probably do have life savings that are that little or less

Considering that over 40% of the population have nothing in savings at all, And only about 40% of those who do have savings have more than 3 months worth of money put away, that's pretty much a "definitely", not a "probably".

[Ryche]

That's fine as long as he makes churches record the winnings and losings for bingo players as well. And record how much people spend on lottery tickets. (If neither of these are allowed in Pennsylvania, then forgive my ignorance)

[Samdari]

I couldn't begin to guess how many hours I've spent on microlimit machines but considering I usually play 12+ hours on a gaming day between trips to Vegas, Tunica, and the Gulf Coast, & that my average trip is 4-5 days, and that nickels & quarters are 99% of my gaming, it's plenty of hours. And yet the largest payoff I've ever hit on any machine anywhere was $78 on nickels in Reno

With all those long days, did you ever lose anywhere close to $400 in a day playing nickel slots?

[stevew]

I'm interested to see how my one friend's dad voted on this. He's a rep from the next district over. And a family member is running for the state house this fall, and there is a good chance he will win. I'm guessing both would be for the proposal, since it seems to be a republican type bill.

[sabotai]

That's fine as long as he makes churches record the winnings and losings for bingo players as well. And record how much people spend on lottery tickets. (If neither of these are allowed in Pennsylvania, then forgive my ignorance)

I know that Pennsylvania is one of the states that participates in the Powerball lottery (I see commercials for it everyday).

[stevew]

I know that Pennsylvania is one of the states that participates in the Powerball lottery (I see commercials for it everyday).
PA has a lot of gambling. Powerball, regular lotteries, scratch. Tons of Bingo, and now slot games. I think Horse tracks too, but not sure on that. Powerball is now over 200 million, if you are a jackass like WrongWay and want the annuity.

[Raven Hawk]

JIMGA is correct on a lot of what he's talking about.

1. Casino cards are used to track the betting habits as well as any statistic that they might want to help them better understand their customer.

2. Most of the smaller denomination games have more pay lines, so you're not really gambling with nickles, but often about 50 cents per pull if you're playing 10 lines.

3. It is very easy to go through $400 in a sitting if you're a gambling addict, even on nickel slots.

4. 95% payout, is distributed across all machines. The higher the big payline, the easier it is to walk away from a machine with nothing. Figure that the machine that pays out $1M at 95% vs. the machine that pays out $1000 at 95%. You will hit more frequently on the lower paylines because the cash is more evenly distributed. The higher paylines need to keep more cash for the higher payout.

5. Depending on your jurisdiction, machines can payout as low as 89% and even less if the casino is ignoring that requirement or using a "group" average as their payout percentage.

[sabotai]

Yeah, I know PA has scratch lotterty tickets. "Gus, the second most famous groundhog in Pennsylvania." Ugh....every damn day, all day long...