Why I should quit playing poker

[kcchief19]

If any of you were in person with me right now, I'd gladly pay you five bucks to hear my bad beat story. Since you're not here, here it is anyway.

As I alluded in this week's collosal squid tourney thread, I've been considering quitting or taking some time off from playing poker because I've been on a bad run and I haven't been dealing with real well. I hadn't played for a few days before Sunday's tourney and I haven't played since until tonight. I wanted to unwind a bit before bed so I entered a $25 turbo SnG.

We're at level 7, blinds $100/$200. I'm in third chip position, mainly stealing blinds with 1900 chips. I haven't showed down a hand yet. We've lost one player and play has been pretty tight. I get AhAc in the BB and the button raises all-in for almost exactly half my stack. It's an automatic call. Villain flips over KsTh. I'm 86 percent to win.

Flop is Kd8sAd. The king is no good, but my set is now dominating. His only hope is a runner-runner for a straight or four kings since one more king will give me the nut full house and so would runner runner tens. I'm 98 percent to win. Turn is Jc. Ugh. Not good, but c'mon -- he only has a 10 percent chance to hit one of the four remaining queens. The river is the Qs.

So, I'm not shortstacked and need to make a move. Next two decent cards and I'm pushing. Three hands later, I get AcQs in the cutoff. I'm all in. I only have 740 chips and the BB is now 400, so I figured the BB has an automatic call, since he appears to be the best player at the table and he should know that he's getting great pot odds with almost any hand.

So when he sits there for a while without calling, my thought is that he must have completely trash. I'm trying to figure out how bad his hand must be to keep him from calling. He finally calls and I find out why -- he turns over 7s2h.

The bad news is that he has two live cards, but c'mon ... this about as good as I could hope, almost a 70 percent favorite preflop. If can catch an ace or a queen, I can almost lock this up.

The fllop is Jh9h5h. Sh*t! That's about as bad a flop as I can get. It's now a coin flip. The turn is 8h. Kill me. I have a slight chance of chopping the pot with another heart, but the river is a brick and I'm out.

I realize I'm overreacting to a few bad beats, but how much more brutal can it get? I lose to a guy with a 2 percent to suckout than I lose with AQ versus the worst possible hand. Amazing.

[larrymcg421]

Don't let it get to you. Your big rush is around the corner.


For example, I had an up and down week of poker. I went back to Pokerstars and built the $19 I had there up to $102 playing SNG's. I then went on an extremely bad run that completely wiped all of that out. I reloaded with another $100, and the last few days have been a great rush for me and I now sit with $400.

Even then, I had a really upsetting experience in an MTT. It was down to 17 left, and I had an average chip stack. Someone with a similar stack reraised me all in when I had KK. I made the call and he showed JJ. Four rags come out, three of them diamonds. I have the Kd, so he only has one out left. And there it falls on the river. A black Jack of Spades. A single card that probably cost me $1,000.

But what I try to think about it each time something like that happens is when bad luck happens, then good luck is around the corner. Keep getting your money in with the best of it and you will be fine.

[kingfc22]

Yea, stick with it. I had been playing, IMO, really solid poker and kept crashing out in SnG's and MTT's. Then all of a sudden I cashed in 4 straight MTT's last week and ended up $400 including one final table appearance.

[SirFozzie]

I don't play turbos. I prefer to have enough time that I don't have to play marginal hands. I can do that, except in FOFC tournies..

I know how it feels, in a 180 player sit and go tonight, I was doing great.. no bad beats, no good beats, made smart plays and got folks to lay down some hands, till there's 25 left. I have about 12 K.

Blinds are 300/600, Ante 50 at this point.

Get Big Slick in middle position, and make my standard BB raise, to about 3000. Two more folds, and then the guy on the button, who has about 5K.. hesitates, and uses all his time bank, before shoving it in.

I take a few seconds to go through what I remember of this guym to guarantee my read. His M is less then 5. He doesn't have any 2 cards, but he certainly doesn't have a monster. If he had a huge hand, he would've made the push a hell of a lot quicker.

I put him on a weaker Ace, and call.

AK (me) vs AJ.

blank on the flop, blank on the turn..

you know what's coming, right?

J on the river.

It takes me a few seconds to get over that, but I say out loud "Hey, if I have to bust, I'd rather take it via a bad beat rather then make a donkey play and bust, because when the anger about the bad beat fails, I'll know that it wasn't my fault, but that I played it right and got unlucky. It happens.

So for the next twenty hands or so I don't steam, like I sometimes do. I make a couple steals, and the blinds are fine..

Then comes hand #2.. JJ in late position, in an unraised pot (1 limper). I'd really rather take it down, Jacks are vulnerable to the flop, as about 25% of the cards in the deck are bigger, and I have to see three of em. So I put about 2400 of my 9000 in, leaving me enough to get out if called, and get stuck on the flop.

The BB who has a pretty good chip stack (40K).. hesitates. It's obvious to me and several others that he doesn't have a huge hand, but he's trying to defend his blind. He calls, and the limper gets out of our way to the flop.

2s Kh 6s

I decide that I want to shut this down. I don't think he has a K, or two spades, but I don't want to keep him around and drawing at making a hand.

I push.

He waits, but obviously decides that he's priced in (I disagree, but that's something else), and calls.

JJ vs.. 33

One of his 3's are a spade.. but he's on 2 outs + runner runner.

This will solidly put me in the money positions, but I'm not celebrating yet.

Turn.. As
River... 9s

and I'm out in 23rd. 5 from the money.

Am I pissed? Yes. But I'm beginning to understand what folks say about the goal in poker shouldn't be to beat everyone else, (although that's important), but it's to play the best game you could.

I'm actually happy with how I played in the tourney.. but this is why I play tournies. you have a stop loss built into the game. If you get a bad beat and bust, you can't reach into your pocket and put more of your money at risk when you're NOT playing to your potential (steaming). You have to get up from the table/computer and walk away.

I actually went out to the kitchen, poured myself a glass of milk and thought over the plays again.. and by the time the glass was in the dishwasher, the anger over the bad beat had pretty much disappated, and I felt better about that tourney then in some I cashed by making stupid plays.

[GoSeahawks]

Don't quit, just take a break. At one point I lost almost 5k and it took me a long time to get back into poker. When I was in the middle of my monumental collapse I shouldn't have jumped back into a game until I was ready. You can't play good poker if you are constantly doubting yourself. Bad beats can't happen forever.

Just make sure your bankroll is where it needs to be and keep playing your game. Don't get too high when things are going good and don't get too low when they're going bad.

[primelord]

Do you honestly doubt the fact that if you keep getting your money in as an 86% favorite preflop, that it is all going to work out fine in the end?

Yes those beats suck. So ya drop an F bomb when it happens and ya move on. Most people that have a hard time coping with down swings don't understand how long the long term in poker actually is. Failing to cash in 20 straight SnGs is not an unheard of thing for a winning player. Turbos only increase that variance.

I mentioned this on 92o at one point as well, but I really don't understand why all you guys are constantly playing these turbo SnGs. The faster you move the table into push/fold mode the less of an edge you have. They are certainly plenty profitable and I play them often myself, but then again I don't struggle so much with dealing with a bad stretch of luck. If you aren't trying to cram a bunch of tournaments into a short time period you might want to consider playing the non turbos for awhile. Your edge is much bigger there.

[Jas_lov]

I always wondered why you guys would want to play turbos? You guys are probably far better players than most people in $20 sngs so wouldn't you want longer blind levels that favor you? I realize you can play more turbos, but doesn't your money end up getting in most of the time where you're a slight favorite? Are they really that much more profitable? If so, I might try them out, but I'm kind of a tighter player so I would probably struggle with the fact that I'd have to play more aggressive and risk everything on being a slight favorite isntead of grinding everyone down to get to the money in a regular sng which I have mastered quite well.

[Huckleberry]

I mentioned this on 92o at one point as well, but I really don't understand why all you guys are constantly playing these turbo SnGs.

Two kids under 6 years old and a wife that makes going to bed an attractive option leaves me with the two hours between 8:30 and 10:30 p.m. to get a tourney in most nights. :D

[Subby]

online is so effing rigged

[sabotai]

Two kids under 6 years old and a wife that makes going to bed an attractive option leaves me with the two hours between 8:30 and 10:30 p.m. to get a tourney in most nights. :D

2 hours? I'm lucky to last that long in a regular, non-turbo MTT. :)

[Radii]

I mentioned this on 92o at one point as well, but I really don't understand why all you guys are constantly playing these turbo SnGs. The faster you move the table into push/fold mode the less of an edge you have. They are certainly plenty profitable and I play them often myself, but then again I don't struggle so much with dealing with a bad stretch of luck. If you aren't trying to cram a bunch of tournaments into a short time period you might want to consider playing the non turbos for awhile. Your edge is much bigger there.


I am convinced that the $16 turbos on stars was one of the softest games on the internet for a very, very long time. I don't think they are anymore, though.

[Simms]

I was 1- or 2-tabling the $16 Turbos for a *long* time...based mainly on the same premise as Huckleberry (time restrictions). I had gotten so used to the speed and playing style that non-turbo SnGs were like torture.

In the last couple of weeks, I've played a few MTTs and MT-SnGs, and found myself getting used to the 10-minute blind levels. Now that I'm comfortable with it again, I'm 3-4 tabling the $11s and feeling pretty good about my play, especially now that Stars has resizeable windows. The difference in the time it takes me to play is pretty negligible.

[Subby]

I think that our edge in turbos used to be that we understood the strategy and sat back while donkeys knocked each othe off in the first three rounds. Now you get to level 5 and you still have 9 guys in - the luck factor has shot up even more.

[GoldenEagle]

I had a hard time playing my cash games yesterday. I was grinding out a bonus at Holloywood poker and the tables were tighter than a virgin. Those type games are never fun. I was raising with hands like 84o just to try to make things interesting.

[kcchief19]

Yes those beats suck. So ya drop an F bomb when it happens and ya move on. Most people that have a hard time coping with down swings don't understand how long the long term in poker actually is. Failing to cash in 20 straight SnGs is not an unheard of thing for a winning player. Turbos only increase that variance.
Oh, I'm a horrible gambler. You know my history -- I have a horrible aversion to risk. I probably would have quit playing already if I hadn't cashed in the MTT a few months ago. Downswings definitely annoy me, especially since I realize that I'm closer to beign a donkey than a baller. If I had been with you guys in Vegas playing at the WSOP, I would have whizzed down my leg.

If failing to cash in 20 straight SnGs is not unhead of, then I'm golden. I'd be closing in on that streak if it weren't for you going all-in on the bubble against me Sunday. Sorry about that, by way. :)

I am convinced that the $16 turbos on stars was one of the softest games on the internet for a very, very long time. I don't think they are anymore, though.
Maybe that's part of it. I have noticed it being tougher lately. I usually play turbos for a specific reason, such as warm-up for an event or to work on a specific part of my game. Turbos have helped me be more tight aggressive, since the blinds move too quickly to call a lot of flops.

[kcchief19]

I was 1- or 2-tabling the $16 Turbos for a *long* time...based mainly on the same premise as Huckleberry (time restrictions). I had gotten so used to the speed and playing style that non-turbo SnGs were like torture.

In the last couple of weeks, I've played a few MTTs and MT-SnGs, and found myself getting used to the 10-minute blind levels. Now that I'm comfortable with it again, I'm 3-4 tabling the $11s and feeling pretty good about my play, especially now that Stars has resizeable windows. The difference in the time it takes me to play is pretty negligible.
On a side note, what's the opinion of 6-handed SnGs? I play them occassionally, but my experience is that they are usually tough as hell and very tight. My typical short-handed SnG will almost always last longer than a full table SnG. I had one last 1:51 once.

[Maple Leafs]

According to sharkscope, we are a terrible bunch of players.

[Fouts]

Took some advice form this thread and went back to PS and tried the $4 - 180 person tournament. Tightened up my play and sitting on the final table now. I am still reading HH3, and need to go back and reread HH1 & 2.

I tripled up as I wrote this. As I accidently call from first position, a guy goes all in, big stack callls, and I call (all in). My QQ wins the race against AK and AQ.

[SirFozzie]

Good job!

What's the tourney number?

[Fouts]

#29361880

[Daimyo]

I went over to the Rio Wednesday and saw a lady get busted out of the ME after calling some guy who went all in with 53s on a bluff. She had an A and another face card (I don't think it was a K... so probably AQ) and flopped an A on a rainbow flop. Of course the guy then managed to pull the flush out of his ass on the turn and river. Now that would suck. :)

[Fouts]

Foz is good luck.

[Fouts]

My AA vs TT doubles me up.

[SirFozzie]

He's in 2nd place with about 70K now, Blinds are 1k/2K Ante 100, 3500 to play a round, so an M of 20 (although that's not as huge getting down to the late stages of a tournament)

[Fouts]

I had 99, guy went all in with a K on the board. Couldn't make myself call. I had 43k, and it was another 30k to all a 80k pot.

[SirFozzie]

That's a rough one, I think he thought you missed the flop and was just making a continuation bet.. he didn't seem like he had the K

[primelord]

According to sharkscope, we are a terrible bunch of players.

I know my numbers are terrible. Despite playing hundreds of SnGs early on I only really began to understand optimal strategy for them within the last couple of months. The problem I was having and I believe most people have in SnGs is they treat them like real poker and they aren't.

The optimal strategy in a SnG is to play very tight in the early rounds, hope you win a couple big pots a monster hands and start shoving in the right spots when it comes to that. Sure you can play a little bit of poker early if you have some solid hands in late position, but I fold hands in early and middle position that I would never fold in a cash game or MTT. It's just not worth the chips to speculate much early and you will often be at or near the bubble when it comes time to shove by just folding all the time.

[Fouts]

Ouch guy hit runner runner club to put me almost out.

[SirFozzie]

Well, that sucks.

I'm playing some and doing well, but it's still early in a tourney, flopped a set of aces one hand and busted someone then a set of 9's on the next one

[Fouts]

AQ loses to 66 and I'm out in 4th. $57 bucks for $4.40 entry.

[Fouts]

Well, that sucks.

I'm playing some and doing well, but it's still early in a tourney, flopped a set of aces one hand and busted someone then a set of 9's on the next one

Following your tourney and I joined another one to see if it was a fluke.

[SirFozzie]

Oh my god. too bad PS doesn't have a bad beat jackpot, this guy woulda loved it. (edit: Yes, I know this doesn't quite fit under a Bad Beat Jackpot, but.. wow.. the first Royal I've seen)

PokerStars Game #5802746196: Tournament #29373523, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/08/05 - 01:43:47 (ET)
Table '29373523 7' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: lch9 (1290 in chips)
Seat 2: Kilmarnock (1405 in chips)
Seat 3: BJRM (4980 in chips)
Seat 4: factorial (4695 in chips)
Seat 5: SirFozzie (1180 in chips)
Seat 7: elizabethQ (1115 in chips)
Seat 8: afkshower (1605 in chips)
Seat 9: zorby (810 in chips)
afkshower: posts small blind 25
zorby: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SirFozzie [6s Td]
lch9: raises 50 to 100
Kilmarnock: folds
BJRM: raises 100 to 200
factorial: calls 200
SirFozzie: folds
elizabethQ: folds
afkshower: folds
zorby: calls 150
lch9: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [Jh Kh Th]
zorby: checks
lch9: bets 150
BJRM: calls 150
factorial: calls 150
zorby: folds
*** TURN *** [Jh Kh Th] [Ah]
lch9: bets 100
BJRM: calls 100
factorial: calls 100
*** RIVER *** [Jh Kh Th Ah] [Ts]
lch9: bets 200
BJRM: raises 4330 to 4530 and is all-in
factorial: calls 4245 and is all-in
lch9: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BJRM: shows [Qh Kd] (a Royal Flush)
factorial: shows [Tc Ac] (a full house, Tens full of Aces)
factorial said, "ouch"
BJRM collected 10265 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 10265 | Rake 0
Board [Jh Kh Th Ah Ts]
Seat 1: lch9 folded on the River
Seat 2: Kilmarnock folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: BJRM showed [Qh Kd] and won (10265) with a Royal Flush
Seat 4: factorial showed [Tc Ac] and lost with a full house, Tens full of Aces
Seat 5: SirFozzie folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: elizabethQ (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: afkshower (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: zorby (big blind) folded on the Flop

[Simms]

Oh my god. too bad PS doesn't have a bad beat jackpot, this guy woulda loved it. (edit: Yes, I know this doesn't quite fit under a Bad Beat Jackpot, but.. wow.. the first Royal I've seen)


Reminds me of one my favorite hands.... :)

http://www.92offsuit.com/?p=173

[SirFozzie]

The same guy ended up flopping quads a few hands later to knock me out :)

[larrymcg421]

Here's the standard level of play at these 180 person SNG's:

PokerStars Game #5804197245: Tournament #29382289, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2006/08/05 - 06:12:56 (ET)
Table '29382289 12' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: billme007 (2360 in chips)
Seat 2: paul val (1200 in chips)
Seat 3: Gijs141 (2411 in chips)
Seat 4: DreamyGreg (4375 in chips)
Seat 5: jesika1413 (3295 in chips)
Seat 7: coco74 (970 in chips)
Seat 8: Vikentie (2050 in chips)
coco74: posts small blind 15
Vikentie: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
larrymcg421 is connected
billme007: folds
DreamyGreg said, "don't mess with texas"
paul val: raises 120 to 150
Gijs141: raises 120 to 270
DreamyGreg: calls 270
jesika1413: folds
coco74: raises 700 to 970 and is all-in
Vikentie: folds
paul val: raises 230 to 1200 and is all-in
Gijs141: folds
DreamyGreg: calls 930
*** FLOP *** [Jh Jc 2h]
larrymcg421 said, "huh?"
*** TURN *** [Jh Jc 2h] [5d]
*** RIVER *** [Jh Jc 2h 5d] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
paul val: shows [8h Ah] (a flush, Ace high)
DreamyGreg: shows [Qs Js] (three of a kind, Jacks)
paul val collected 460 from side pot
coco74: shows [Kd Ks] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
paul val collected 3210 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3670 Main pot 3210. Side pot 460. | Rake 0
Board [Jh Jc 2h 5d Th]
Seat 1: billme007 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: paul val showed [8h Ah] and won (3670) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 3: Gijs141 folded before Flop
Seat 4: DreamyGreg showed [Qs Js] and lost with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 5: jesika1413 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: coco74 (small blind) showed [Kd Ks] and lost with two pair, Kings and Jacks
Seat 8: Vikentie (big blind) folded before Flop

[Maple Leafs]

I finished third in a $4 180 last week. I haven't played one since... they're fun but wow do they ever take a long time. Will probably give one a shot over the weekend.

[Maple Leafs]

The optimal strategy in a SnG is to play very tight in the early rounds, hope you win a couple big pots a monster hands and start shoving in the right spots when it comes to that.
I'm willing to bet that you play at higher levels than I do, but at lower levels you can mix it up a bit with drawing hands early on when the blinds are low -- suited connectors, etc. This is because against bad players, a.) you can expect to win a lot of chips if you hit something, and b.) you'll very often get to see a turn or even a river cheaply because they won't push you out.

The key is to know what you're drawing to and not get attached to a hand that hits partially. If you want to 98s you can, but don't get all fiesty when the board comes K84.

[kcchief19]

Since I'm chronicling the nightmare that is now my poker life, here's tonight's recap:

Tourney 1: Getting a little shortstacked (850), I get 99 in the BB (blinds 75/150). UTG limps, five folds to the SB who raises to 3BB. I go all-in, UTG calls, SB reraises all-in, UTG folds. SB flips over 88. I'm 81 percent preflop, 95 percent on the river when he hits the two-outer eight.

Tourney 2: Fairly deep in MTT, blind are 600/1200. I've just tripled up to 5,200 and get K3 in the BB. SB limps and the flop comes KsTcQd and SB checks. Given his play, I figure this guy for something like A8 or QJ, certainly a picece of the flop and possibly a draw. He's been pretty aggressive when he's made hands and bet strong hands preflop, so I don't think he had AJ. I'm still shortstacked so I push all-in. He calls and flips over Q8. I'm 66 percent and in pretty good shape. Turn is a queen and river a ten to give villain his full house.

I know pokers a lot of ups and downs, but this is definitely my absolutely worst streak of getting beat time and time again when I get my money in with the best hand, frequently in dominating positions.

I'll stop whining now. :)

[Butter]

It's happening to me, too, kc. Playing a lot of 1-2-3 dollar tourneys on Party Poker, and I'm just getting beat every time I go with the best hand. Losing to AK with KK. Tonight, my wife lost with AA to 33, and has lost recently with QQ v. 99 and a flush to a rivered full house.

Cannot catch a break. Cannot seem to win a coin flip either... every time I have AK against some kind of lower pair, I flop squat.

George is gettin' upset!