Public Library protocol question [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

QuikSand

08-10-2006, 02:53 PM

Our public library has a nice service, where you can register with your email address, and receive a notice when your books are due.

Let's assume, I think reasonably, that once this service is established, it bears no cost to the library system to send out any particular number of messages. There is no marginal cost involved with sending out one more message, or twice as many -- the only costs are to set up the system.

Let's also assume, which I know is reasonable, that while the library system imposes penalties for overdue items, this is not a major component of its funding -- the library budget is primarily borne by government contributions, and the overue fines are a very modest share of the total.

With that in mind... do they have any sort of ethical obligation to send out a notice to the patron before the book is due? Or is it okay to send out the notice only once the book has become overdue, and fines have begun to accumulate?

Yes, I just got a notice that my items are due, and that I already owe sixty cents. But they definitely have their system set up to send the reminder only after the item has already triggered its first day of overdue fines.

Grammaticus

08-10-2006, 02:56 PM

No they do not have an obligation to send the notice before the book is due.

The notice is telling you to get the darn book back to the libarary so somebody else can check it out.

QuikSand

08-10-2006, 02:57 PM

And a notice the day before it's due wouldn't effectively convey the same message?

Subby

08-10-2006, 03:01 PM

Yes, that is horrible. Our county not only let's us know a week in advance via email, they give us the option of renewing via a link in the email.

Drake

08-10-2006, 03:03 PM

I like it that the library assumes that you're an adult and can be responsible enough to get your library books back on time.

Butter

08-10-2006, 03:07 PM

I usually return or renew my books on the day that they're due, so if they sent me e-mails a few days before each time, I'd get annoyed rather quickly.

Drake

08-10-2006, 03:09 PM

Why are you going to the library anyway? The internet was invented so we wouldn't need libraries.

JonInMiddleGA

08-10-2006, 03:10 PM

Your library has email?

Wow, I'm impressed.

(Yes, I'm being serious. And yes, it's well past time for me to move out of Hooterville).

Subby

08-10-2006, 03:10 PM

I usually return or renew my books on the day that they're due, so if they sent me e-mails a few days before each time, I'd get annoyed rather quickly.The service in our County is opt-in. Obviously if you are big boy like Drake then you don't need it.

Since the whole reservation/checkout system is automated for us, having electronic renewal/reminder notices isn't a monster technological innovation.

Arctus

08-10-2006, 03:13 PM

I don't think the library has an ethical obligation to send out a notice before the book is due.

I do agree that it would make more sense for them to send out the notice before the book is due, assuming it was painless for them to do so. I'm guessing that the notices are automated and are tied into an overdue report of some sort. I don't know if the library can readily create an "almost overdue" report.

Antmeister

08-10-2006, 03:22 PM

Your library has email?

Wow, I'm impressed.

(Yes, I'm being serious. And yes, it's well past time for me to move out of Hooterville).

Heck, here you can check out your books online and with some of the books, you can view some of the chapters online as well before you even go to the library to pick them up.

Grammaticus

08-10-2006, 03:22 PM

And a notice the day before it's due wouldn't effectively convey the same message?
Point is the library has no ethical obligation to send it prior to being due. That is the users responsibility. I’m sure if they sent it out prior, they would generate a lot of emails. It really depends upon their intention. If they just want you to bring the book back, it is easier than making a collection call. If they wanted to baby sit, they would send it ahead of time.

Why don’t you talk to the librarian and see. They might want to send out prior notices, if that is what people want. I mean, your input can’t hurt.

Samdari

08-10-2006, 03:23 PM

You are giving 60 cents to your local public library. Find actual disturbing things to worry about.

And while you're there, would it hurt to give a little more than the 60 cents?

wishbone

08-10-2006, 03:41 PM

I think that this debate hinges on what they told you when you signed up for the service. Assuming they stated that would send the email "when the book was due" it would be overdue before you received the email. If they stated they would send the notice to allow you to return the book before it was overdue, then there is an obligation to do so.

If it was me working for the library, I would tell people that sometimes spam filter block the message and blame user error for people not getting the email.

QuikSand

08-10-2006, 03:56 PM

Why don’t you talk to the librarian and see. They might want to send out prior notices, if that is what people want. I mean, your input can’t hurt.

I plan to do this, but I thought tossing this out to a group would be a good barometer of how to approach it. I don't really have a real fire in my belly about it, but assuming there is no technological or cost barrier to doing a notice a day before the deadline rather than a day after (which I strongly suspect to be true) then this, to me, seems like a matter of courtesy (perhaps more than an ethical obligation).

It's a nice service. But I don't think the "gotcha" element has to be part of it, and I don't think all these overblown statements here about babysitting and the like are really fair. I'm not talking about making a huge new investment of money or staff time in doing something in a completely different way than they do now, I'm talking (essentially) about programming a +1 into a -1 and giving people the courtesy of reacting to the notice without penalty.

Maple Leafs

08-10-2006, 03:59 PM

Thought: Considering how paranoid people have become about their inboxes, it's possible they've decided not to send any e-mails before overdue status to ward off complaints of "I know it's due, I'm bringing it back tomorrow, stop spamming me already!"

QuikSand

08-10-2006, 04:03 PM

Okay, just to be clear (since my first effort obviously failed there):

-I agree that it's the patron's responsibility to return books on time or pay the fine
-I don't give a rat's ass about the sixty cents, or any other library fine
-I don't even feel particularly strongly about this policy
-I appreciate this service in general
-I think public libraries are basically just wonderful, including mine, for the most part
-I do not advocate the violent overthrow of the government over this or any issue

Does that help to put this into at least some perspective?

It just struck me as an interesting question... if they're going to provide this service, and it is of no consequence to them in terms of cost or effort whether the notice goes out a day before or a day after the due date... what an interesting decision it is to choose to sent it after.

At the very least, if their only objective is to get the books back into new circulation sooner, delaying the message serves clearly must serve to frustrate that goal, right?

Vinatieri for Prez

08-10-2006, 04:12 PM

Why would they want to lose out on their 60 cents from you? Especially because you're checking out that stupid book nobody else wants: 101 ways to win at Front Office Football, by Justin Shipman.

Draft Dodger

08-10-2006, 04:13 PM

With that in mind... do they have an ethical obligation to send out a notice to the patron before the book is due? Or is it okay to send out the notice only once the book has become overdue, and fines have begun to accumulate?

Yes, I just got a notice that my items are due, and that I already owe sixty cents. But they definitely have their system set up to send the reminder only after the item has already triggered its first day of overdue fines.

To answer your question, no I don't believe they have an ethical obligation to send the notice before the book is due. And if they don't do this, I suspect it is either just a) an oversight on their part or b) something they don't know how to do, since I agree that late fees are not what they are paying the bills with. Might also just be the case of a crotchedy administrator ("I don't think we need to hold peoples hands, blah blah blah"), but I'm still more inclined to think it's b.

I think my library does something via email, although I don't really know if it kicks in before or after the book is due, as I gave them my default "junk mail" email account that I never check.

Young Drachma

08-10-2006, 04:14 PM

I wonder if freegans can use libraries.

Daimyo

08-10-2006, 04:14 PM

I think it would be a nice service if they sent the email the day before the book was due. I don't think they have any ethical obligation to do so... its pretty nice cool that they even send something out at all.

JonInMiddleGA

08-10-2006, 04:16 PM

And while you're there, would it hurt to give a little more than the 60 cents?

At the risk of a sidetrack, are all public libraries funded by tax revenue from the general fund (or whatever its called where you are)?

I guess what I'm asking is whether anybody has a specific set aside tax for the operation of their library(ies).

Glengoyne

08-10-2006, 05:16 PM

At the risk of a sidetrack, are all public libraries funded by tax revenue from the general fund (or whatever its called where you are)?

I guess what I'm asking is whether anybody has a specific set aside tax for the operation of their library(ies).

I've seen ballot measures for additional sales or other taxes to supplement library funding.

Also regarding QS's original question. I'd bet they'd get complaints from people saying that they had a whole 'nother day to return that book, and that the library shouldn't bother them. Or if they notified people on the day the book was due, people would say, "What?! Why didn't you tell me yesterday when I could have done something about it?" I guess this way they only have to hear complaints from the real deadbeats:p.

sterlingice

08-10-2006, 06:33 PM

Your library has email?

Wow, I'm impressed.

(Yes, I'm being serious. And yes, it's well past time for me to move out of Hooterville).

The Lawrence library has internet access in the basement but near as I can tell, they have an invisible sign I can't see that says "junior high and high school kids, come here for 2 hours a day and use AIM to cyber with other junior high and high school kids pretending to be older than they are"

SI

Toddzilla

08-10-2006, 06:55 PM

So let me get this straight...

Library sends notice out AFTER book is due = $$$
Library sends notice out BEFORE book is due = zilch

Which, to you, seems like the better business decision?

Draft Dodger

08-10-2006, 07:37 PM

So let me get this straight...

Library sends notice out AFTER book is due = $$$
Library sends notice out BEFORE book is due = zilch

Which, to you, seems like the better business decision?

if the library was a traditional business, like, say, a video store, this would make perfect sense.
but it isn't. I can't imagine overdue fines are that important to most libraries. I would assume the only reason they are in place is to encourage people to bring back books in a timely manner to ensure good availability for everyone. My library charges a whopping 10 cents a day, and that's only for days the library is open. Not exactly a cash cow.

EDIT: Factor in the added costs (financial and organizational) to track, collect and manage the generally insignificant fines, and I bet it would be to the libraries benefit to NOT have to get sixty cents from Quik.

albionmoonlight

08-10-2006, 07:53 PM

My guess is the library didn't think much about this. They were getting the new computer system set up, and someone said, "We can make this so that people get an email when a book is overdue." And the library people said, "Cool."

To the extent that they did think about it, I imagine that the "Stop Spamming Me" decision was probably what motivated the decision.

cougarfreak

08-10-2006, 08:47 PM

My library sends me a reminder 3 days in advance of when my items are due.

Shkspr

08-10-2006, 09:04 PM

Bah. Library patrons. You're all dead to me. ;)

Grammaticus

08-10-2006, 09:56 PM

My Librarian is hot.

bosshogg23

08-10-2006, 10:47 PM

My local library(Philly) lets you request books from throughout the city(and state if u click enough links) lets you know the position you are in for requested books, lets you pay fines, search the entire catalogs, listen to various lectures, history lessons. Its a great system.

However its down most of the freakin day. Its up during the business day M-F. Thats about it though. Weekends its usually down and as well after 8pm.

QuikSand

08-11-2006, 12:38 AM

Bah. Library patrons. You're all dead to me. ;)

This from a guy who passed on in what, 1616?

QuikSand

08-11-2006, 12:39 AM

So let me get this straight...

Library sends notice out AFTER book is due = $$$
Library sends notice out BEFORE book is due = zilch

Which, to you, seems like the better business decision?

Seems to me the library is in the "public service" business, rather than the "make money" business.

Besides, you left out the "don't remind people who are overdue at all, and let the fines rack up = $$$$$$" option.

Shkspr

08-11-2006, 12:49 AM

This from a guy who passed on in what, 1616?

Even the groundlings paid a penny back in the day. :cool:

Toddzilla

08-11-2006, 07:23 AM

Drake

08-11-2006, 10:10 AM

rkmsuf

08-11-2006, 10:14 AM

Well, let me tell you something, funny boy. Y'know that little stamp, the one that says "New York Public Library"? Well that may not mean anything to you, but that means a lot to me. One whole hell of a lot. Sure, go ahead, laugh if you want to. I've seen your type before: Flashy, making the scene, flaunting convention. Yeah, I know what you're
thinking. What's this guy making such a big stink about old library books? Well, let me give you a hint, junior. Maybe we can live without libraries, people like you and me. Maybe. Sure, we're too old to change the world, but what about that kid, sitting down, opening a book, right now, in a branch at the local library and finding drawings of pee-pees
and wee-wees on the Cat in the Hat and the Five Chinese Brothers? Doesn't HE deserve better? Look. If you think this is about overdue fines and missing books, you'd better think again. This is about that kid's right to read a book without getting his mind warped! Or: maybe that turns you on, Quiksand; maybe that's how y'get your kicks. You and your good-time buddies. Well I got a flash for ya, joy-boy: Party time is over. Y'got seven days, Quiksand. That is one week!

Scarecrow

08-11-2006, 10:19 AM

Your library still has fines?

Not only does our library not have fines, but you can go online and request a book, and they will mail it to you when it's availible.

Ksyrup

08-11-2006, 10:31 AM

It just struck me as an interesting question... if they're going to provide this service, and it is of no consequence to them in terms of cost or effort whether the notice goes out a day before or a day after the due date... what an interesting decision it is to choose to sent it after.

At the very least, if their only objective is to get the books back into new circulation sooner, delaying the message serves clearly must serve to frustrate that goal, right?

It seems to me that the objective is simply to remind people who have overdue books that they are overdue. Period. The reason they wait a day after the deadline is likely because by then, they will have scanned all of the returned books that were due by the deadline the day before, which will generate a small list of people who still need to return their books. This gives them a far smaller number of people to have to email than a pre-deadline email, and it's a nice service to provide if you don't realize your book is even due, since it's saving you (and costing them) money in fines you wouldn't otherwise even know you were accumulating. So I don't see this as being a "business-like" move - why would a business take money out of their pockets by telling you how to stop accumulating fines?

The whole point of this seems not to be " warning system," but a courtesy notification that your book is overdue and costing you money. If they wanted to change the focus along the lines that you suggest, then fine, but I don't think that was the objective to begin with.

Jonathan Ezarik

08-11-2006, 10:33 AM

Let's also assume, which I know is reasonable, that while the library system imposes penalties for overdue items, this is not a major component of its funding -- the library budget is primarily borne by government contributions, and the overue fines are a very modest share of the total.

I just checked the latest annual report of the Pittsburgh public libraries, and a little over 7% of their funding comes from fines and other fees. They get more money from that than donations and grants.

I know that 7% is not a whole lot, but when you are trying to find money wherever you can (as almost all libraries are), then those fees are very important.

QuikSand

08-11-2006, 11:03 AM

I just checked the latest annual report of the Pittsburgh public libraries, and a little over 7% of their funding comes from fines and other fees. They get more money from that than donations and grants.

I know that 7% is not a whole lot, but when you are trying to find money wherever you can (as almost all libraries are), then those fees are very important.

So, are you arguing that they ought to get out of the "reminder" business altogether, and try to maximize fine revenue?

Grammaticus

08-11-2006, 12:27 PM

So, are you arguing that they ought to get out of the "reminder" business altogether, and try to maximize fine revenue?
That is what Blockbuster does :)

QuikSand

08-11-2006, 12:33 PM

That is what Blockbuster does :)

Amd the smilie, I hope, is there to remind people of the vast differences in objectives that these institutions nominally maintain.

rkmsuf

08-11-2006, 12:37 PM

Maybe there is some psychological evidence that you are more likely to return your books if they are already late and the meter is already running.

I mean as a deadbeat you might see the note a day or two before and think "meh, I have a couple days" and then forget again.

Or maybe they are just sticking it to you.

Jonathan Ezarik

08-11-2006, 12:49 PM

So, are you arguing that they ought to get out of the "reminder" business altogether, and try to maximize fine revenue?

I don't have a horse in this race, I just thought it was interesting that Pittsburgh libraries get more income from fees than donations.

If I have to take a stance on this issue, I don't have a problem with the library sending out the notices after the book is due. It's my responsibility to return the book in time. That's part of the agreement when I check the book out. I don't expect my gas company to send me an e-mail reminding me that my bill is due, so why should my library?

How many days overdue where your books when you received your notice? Was it a week, or just one day? If they waited a long time to send the notice I would be upset, not because of the fine, but because there could be other people waiting for those books.

QuikSand

08-11-2006, 01:11 PM

How many days overdue where your books when you received your notice? Was it a week, or just one day? If they waited a long time to send the notice I would be upset, not because of the fine, but because there could be other people waiting for those books.

My email was sent the day they become overdue.

But doesn't that concluding logic just fit somewhere along the spectrum of what i've been arguing? If your concern is getting the books back in a timely fashion -- how can you justify waiting an extra day or two to end out the note? Assuming some people will be prompted by the note (has to be an underlying belief here) the doesn't that just extend the time that the books are unavailable as well?

Again - I don't recally care much abotu this, I find it an intriguing question.

I wonder if I had reversed the setup for this thread, if the responses would be quite so uniform. If my notice had come to me one day before the books were due, and I had asked whether the notice should have been delayed until the books were overdue, would nearly everyone have criticized my library for babysitting, and demanded a policy change to only notify people that their fines have started building up?

Drake

08-11-2006, 03:23 PM

My library sends librarians to your house to take back their shit. Be happy with an e-mail, I say.

sterlingice

08-11-2006, 10:37 PM

You're very cranky when people bust your balls. You need to download the SmilingThroughThePain 3.0 upgrade. I'll e-mail your engineers.

(ok, I gotta admit- I kindof liked this one)

SI

Samdari

08-12-2006, 01:14 PM

Seems to me the library is in the "public service" business, rather than the "make money" business.

Besides, you left out the "don't remind people who are overdue at all, and let the fines rack up = $$$$$$" option.

Like every other publicly funded service, they don't get enough money to do everything they want. They are forced to seek other ways to obtain funds. The library is not trying to turn a profit, they are trying to provide adequate service.

Bonegavel

08-12-2006, 01:41 PM

I think it would be interesting to see how much the PLs make off of late fees. I know as a young child I gave a small fortune to the Whitehall Public Library (http://whitehall.lib.pa.us/) as I was constantly late with my books.

Reason I ask this is that you would think they would send you this email a day or so early so you wouldn't be late (ostensibly the reason you signed up for this service in the first place).

Seems that late fees would be a pittance, but who knows. IIRC, the fees can add up fairly quickly, especially when many books are involved.

I remember I used to love the sound of the date stamp machines they used in my day. It was a loud Cha-chunk!

21C

08-12-2006, 08:23 PM

I mentioned this thread to my librarian wife and she mentioned the main reason why the email wouldn't be sent earlier - in her library system anyway.

Since people ask for different methods of receiving overdue notices ( by letter, phone or email ), she said it would cost a small fortune if people were mailed or phoned on the day that the book was due - or even within a day or two. Her library system sends out overdue notices two weeks after the book is due. They couldn't make exceptions for emails since people would complain about the "fairness" of getting overdue notices at different times.

By the way, her library system doesn't charge fines for overdue books - they just stop people from borrowing any new books.