Poker SnG question

[TroyF]

OK, here is the situation. We are down to four players, I'm the short stack. I'm the BB. Combined with the ante, I have 35 chips left.

The SB was in second with about 1,000 chips left.

The button put in a 1,000+ chip raise and the SB called.

Now, if I throw in my last 35 chips there and we both get knocked out, who takes 3rd?

I played sissy poker there. I folded and took a shot the SB would lose the hand. He did and I took 3rd place.

[GoldenEagle]

The SB would since he started with more chips, regardless if your hand was better than his or not.

[Mustang]

If 2 go out on the same hand, the higher place will go to the person with more chips entering the hand.

[TroyF]

Thanks guys.

I lucked out and got money I probably didn't deserve there. If I hadn't folded, I'd have also lost to the button and would have taken 4th. Of course, folding essentially ended my chance at anything beyond 3rd with only 35 chips remaining.

What's the play there guys? Should I have just sucked it up and thrown in the other 35 with my 2/5 offsuit and a big bet and a call? Or should I have just played to get third as I didn't feel the 2/5 had much of a shot in that situation anyway?

[rkmsuf]

Thanks guys.

I lucked out and got money I probably didn't deserve there. If I hadn't folded, I'd have also lost to the button and would have taken 4th. Of course, folding essentially ended my chance at anything beyond 3rd with only 35 chips remaining.

What's the play there guys? Should I have just sucked it up and thrown in the other 35 with my 2/5 offsuit and a big bet and a call? Or should I have just played to get third as I didn't feel the 2/5 had much of a shot in that situation anyway?


winning that particular hand was fairly irrelvelant in terms of overtaking the top 2 chip counts. the play is to survive and cash with only 35 left unless you have a great hand.

[TroyF]

winning that particular hand was fairly irrelvelant in terms of overtaking the top 2 chip counts. the play is to survive and cash with only 35 left unless you have a great hand.


I had 650 out in the BB and my ante. With the other 35 thrown in, I would have jumped up to over 2k in chips and had a fighting chance.

But with the horrible hand that I thought had a slim chance of winning, I folded and prayed the SB would be knocked out.

BTW, he called the huge raise with A/5o. The button made the raise with pocket 7's. I had 5/2o. A third 7 came on the board on the flop and the A/5 was drawing dead after the turn.

[rkmsuf]

I had 650 out in the BB and my ante. With the other 35 thrown in, I would have jumped up to over 2k in chips and had a fighting chance.

But with the horrible hand that I thought had a slim chance of winning, I folded and prayed the SB would be knocked out.

BTW, he called the huge raise with A/5o. The button made the raise with pocket 7's. I had 5/2o. A third 7 came on the board on the flop and the A/5 was drawing dead after the turn.

oh, all I saw was the 35.

I would have been tempted to call hoping both my cards were live and only having 35 left. I think you played it right given 25 is unlikely to take down two other hands raising the pot.

Myself I would have been 90/10 to just toss in the other 35.

[GoldenEagle]

It sounds like a classic situation of do I want to make the money or do I want to have a shot at winning it?

I probably would have called, but that is just me.

[Subby]

How did you let yourself get in that situation in the first place? Blinded down or lost a hand?

[TroyF]

It sounds like a classic situation of do I want to make the money or do I want to have a shot at winning it?

I probably would have called, but that is just me.


I think if I have it to do over again, I call. I was really surprised the SB made the call and clicked on the fold button pretty quick. In the end the strategy worked as I got paid and would have lost.

But I think having the chance (no matter how slim) to triple up in that situation is something I probably should have taken. Been replaying it in my head all morning actually.

[TroyF]

How did you let yourself get in that situation in the first place? Blinded down or lost a hand?


Lost a hand. I never get myself in that situation if I can help it. I pushed all in with J/J two hands earlier. I was called by a guy who had about 700 chips smaller than me. He showed Q/T and caught a Q to beat me.

I get near that 7x BB area, I'm looking for a hand to push. I get to the 5x BB area, I'm pushing with essentially anything.

[rkmsuf]

Lost a hand. I never get myself in that situation if I can help it. I pushed all in with J/J two hands earlier. I was called by a guy who had about 700 chips smaller than me. He showed Q/T and caught a Q to beat me.

I get near that 7x BB area, I'm looking for a hand to push. I get to the 5x BB area, I'm pushing with essentially anything.


I get to 10X and I start feeling pretty antsy. Maybe that's too soon but that's an automatic shift gears point to looking for an all or nothing type play.

[dixieflatline]

Harrington has an excellent section near the end of book 3 with a bunch of SNG hands on the bubble and how you should play them. Basically the answer is very tight. While he didn't have a hand that mirrored your example I am sure folding was the correct play once the sb did what he did.

[TroyF]

I get to 10X and I start feeling pretty antsy. Maybe that's too soon but that's an automatic shift gears point to looking for an all or nothing type play.


I agree. At 10x, I'll get antsy as well, but it's not an auto push. I get down to 7x and it's Push or Fold for me.

[TroyF]

Harrington has an excellent section near the end of book 3 with a bunch of SNG hands on the bubble and how you should play them. Basically the answer is very tight. While he didn't have a hand that mirrored your example I am sure folding was the correct play once the sb did what he did.


I've been using a strategy from Scott Fischman the last week or two, and it's been incredibly successful. Play tight as hell, picking spots and playing minimal hands til you get to 4. Once you get to 4, act like a madman. 80% of the hands become all ins. You throw away bad hands if someone else has made a bet. You throw away pure garbage hands (the bottom 30 or 40 hands of the 169 possible) and you simply push anything else.

It's amazingly effective. People use the tight method and you can just rip thier blinds away non stop. Unless it's A big pocket pair, most people won't risk their tournament on a coin flip. You do get a lot of fourths playing like that. But you also get a ton of wins. I'm cashing at a high rate (near 50%) and winning about a 1/4 of the SnG's I've entered. (albeit at low limits so far)

[rkmsuf]

I've been using a strategy from Scott Fischman the last week or two, and it's been incredibly successful. Play tight as hell, picking spots and playing minimal hands til you get to 4. Once you get to 4, act like a madman. 80% of the hands become all ins. You throw away bad hands if someone else has made a bet. You throw away pure garbage hands (the bottom 30 or 40 hands of the 169 possible) and you simply push anything else.

It's amazingly effective. People use the tight method and you can just rip thier blinds away non stop. Unless it's A big pocket pair, most people won't risk their tournament on a coin flip. You do get a lot of fourths playing like that. But you also get a ton of wins. I'm cashing at a high rate (near 50%) and winning about a 1/4 of the SnG's I've entered. (albeit at low limits so far)

Agree. That's textbook against suspect competition. Typically you'll know that strategy is the one to use the first few hands when you get ridiculous raises being made.

[dixieflatline]

Interesting stuff Troy. I don't really play SNG but recently had read through that harrington stuff so I thought I would share.

[Subby]

Primelord has a pretty good post around here somewhere about the advantages of playing aggressively on the bubble in sit and gos...

[TroyF]

Interesting stuff Troy. I don't really play SNG but recently had read through that harrington stuff so I thought I would share.

Please keep sharing. I'd read the Harrington section and he's the opposite. I'm sure as I move up in limits and build my bankroll (fingers crossed) that I'll have to alter strategies. I would imagine against solid players the Fischman strategy would be tougher to pull off.

Honestly, as I read Online Ace, I thought he was nuts. It sounded idiotic to me. Then I started thinking about it. If you can get to the final 4 with just about your starting stack or a little above, you have enough chips to essentially end the tournament for 1 or 2 players and the chip leader is going to want to play tight as hell knowing he's a shoe in for the final 2 if he just gets a blind or two from people. (and indeed, this is the guy you'll end up folding some to after he starts moving on you)

All it takes is to pull it off about three or four turns around the short table until you've built up a decent sized stack by grabbing nothing but the blinds. Even when you get called, you'll suck out and win some of the time.

And as a win pays a lot more than a 3rd, you are better off trying for the wins anyway.

If you try this strategy, make sure you turn off chat. It will piss people off royaly.

[TroyF]

Primelord has a pretty good post around here somewhere about the advantages of playing aggressively on the bubble in sit and gos...


I should have credited Primelord as well. When I was debating the Fischman strategy, I read his article. It gave me the shove I needed to give the strategy a try.

The poker gods knew he treated me well and gave him the old A/A and me the K/K in our last SnG here. :)

[dixieflatline]

I'll have to go back and check this as I moved through the section pretty fast. But what I thought I had read was that it took a pretty strong hand to call an allin even if you knew the oponent would be opening lightly when you are on the bubble. Yes I agree with you that when folded to you on the bubble or not harrington does suggest opening pretty lightly and being aggressive. Calling in a situation like you had here though it appeared like he advocated playing pretty tight.

[primelord]

Agree. That's textbook against suspect competition. Typically you'll know that strategy is the one to use the first few hands when you get ridiculous raises being made.

It's textbook against all competition, not just suspect players. If anything it is actually more effective against strong players. The value of shoving weaker hands on the bubble comes from the fact that players are scared to call. However weak players are more likely to think KJo is worth calling an all-in with than strong players are. The smaller the range of hands your opponents will call with the more effective this strategy is.

It remains effective against all opponents though because even the ranges of the poor players, while wider than the good players, is small enough to show a profit.

[MJ4H]

If you try this strategy, make sure you turn off chat. It will piss people off royaly.

Not a chance. Aside from the profit, this is the best thing to come from this strategy.

[Neuqua]

Going to need to find primelord's post. Is it here at FOFC or 9-2 offsuit?

[TroyF]

Going to need to find primelord's post. Is it here at FOFC or 9-2 offsuit?


9-2 off suit.

Scott Fischman has a lot of articles on SnG's over at Cardplayer and his book is called Online Ace.

[TroyF]

Just played 4x 6.50 SnG turbos over at Stars using this strategy.

2 first place finishes
1 second place finish
1 fourth place finish

Spent 26 bucks. Won 64.80. Net $38.80

For about 1.5 hours worth of play. (played em two at a time)

Variation is a killer, but I'm having amazing success with this strategy at the lower limits thus far.

[Neuqua]

Troy, what's your handle on Stars?

[TroyF]

TAF1972

[Neuqua]

I'll give it a go, wish me luck.

[TroyF]

good luck. :)

[kingnebwsu]

I should give this one a try too. And multi-tabling shouldn't be so tough, since you won't be playing in very many hands. Just gotta keep up with playing styles so you'll be ready for the final four.

You said that 80% of the hands would be all-ins...is that all-in pre-flop when you're first in? Or do you just raise x times the BB and then push on the flop? Clarification would be appreciated. I'll give this a try soon :)

[TroyF]

I should give this one a try too. And multi-tabling shouldn't be so tough, since you won't be playing in very many hands. Just gotta keep up with playing styles so you'll be ready for the final four.

You said that 80% of the hands would be all-ins...is that all-in pre-flop when you're first in? Or do you just raise x times the BB and then push on the flop? Clarification would be appreciated. I'll give this a try soon :)


The way I'm playing it, there are only two decisions. . . fold or move. I don't get cute with a half bet, push on the flop strategy. It kind of defeats the purpose. You want to make it to where their tournament life is on the line if they call. You give them a chance to risk half their stack to see the flop, and if they hit the flop, it's over.

I played around with the strategy a little today. I wanted to see if I became a little more choosy in my hands how it would work. Say 50% of the time, instead of 80. It didn't work nearly as well. As part of the strategy is not calling thier raises without a big hand, by folding more the other players took more chances when they acted before me.

I think you just have to bite the bullet and raise with everything but the worst hands.

Obviously, your position comes into play as well. If you got lucky and wiped a couple of other people out when you hit a set or a flush, then you can be a little more passive so long as you can ratchett things up as you near 2nd out of the 4 remaining.

Still having success with it. I'm planning on working with it some more tomorrow and then next week when I get back.

On a side note, I played a $1.50 two table game of HORSE tonight. Outside of some poker games on the computer, it was the first time I've ever seriously played anything outside of hold em. I actually did horrible in the hold em hands, losing a few hundred chips.

And then I went nuts in the Omaha H/L. First hand I was dealt A/K/K/5. The board flopped 4/3/2. I had three or four monster hands in a row and knocked out 4 people off of our table. By the time the final table started, I had something like 15k in chips and second place had 5k. Won an entire 9 bucks off of that one. Then tried it again and finished in 14th place. :)

Fun stuff.

[kingnebwsu]

I've played two $6+$.50 turbo SnG's on pokerstars using the "Fischman" method. I gotta say, this last game was an absolute blast.

My results so far are a 2nd and a 3rd place. That's a net win of $14 total. Plus a whole lotta fun. I would have done better than 3rd in my last game if I didn't lose both AK vs JT and AA vs Q8. I went out super-short stacked after this with a set of K's, but I lost to a straight in a pot that had like over 45% of the total chips. I did give one bad beat I think. The important thing is to keep cashing so I can keep playing this fun mode.

The last game everyone was getting pissed. Maybe I can find some of the better comments...

gooch949 said, "its ok youll get caught"
deji57 said, "he was trying to be a bully"
deji57 said, "damnit"
gooch949 said, "why you giving chips away...moron"
deji57 said, "glad that idiot got 3rd place"
Ack3d said, "me 2"

Overall I went all-in around 21 times and won maybe 18 of them. Watching people get pissed is awesome. It's even MORE funny when you don't say anything in response...and watch them get agitated. I think this may be my new hook on this form of poker.

I know I'm not playing "real" poker persay, but I'm winning money, and that's the goal for me in this. And pissing people off.

I also love getting paid off with my good hands. I got called holding JJ and AA with my ridiculous overbets vs less than stellar hands. Even if I lose holding the better hand, knowing that I'll make $$$ in the long run is cool.

Anyone else used this strategery lately?

[MJ4H]

All the time. I get a kick out of the chat more than just about anything. Man people really get pissed when you don't play the way they think you should.

[TroyF]

All the time. I get a kick out of the chat more than just about anything. Man people really get pissed when you don't play the way they think you should.


It's amazing how quick this strategy can put some guys on tilt. I've had people call me with things like 2/6o after I do this about four times in a row. Not only does it keep a lot of players passive, it makes them aggressive when they should be passive.

I've been mixing up my games this weekend, but I just won a 15+1 SnG using the strategy. I'm opening up my starting hands just a tad more if I see a chance to get up a few hundred from the starting point. If I can get into the 150 chip BB with 1800+ chips, I can usually do serious damage.

Still playing exceptionally tight early with anything but K/K or A/A (I'll even limp in and slow play A/K early on) Then blind stealing late. I'm also getting some confidence in my head to head play. Going to play in a couple of $10 multi table tournies tonight and tomorrow.

[dixieflatline]

I know I'm not playing "real" poker persay, but I'm winning money, and that's the goal for me in this.

real poker = winning money. Anyone who says otherwise is just fooling themselves. If this method has the highest EV then go with it.

[Toddzilla]

UGH - I've been trying this "Fishman" strategy today and I've been doing awful (which isn't any real surprise if you've been following my exploits). Through 8 SnGs I'm 0-8. By the time it gets down to 4 people, I'm usually down to $1000 or so chips, and I've got no leverage going all-in. I got called each time and beat each time. I don't see how this strategy could possible be successful unless you can play and win hands early so you can have some semblance of a bankroll before you're on the bubble.

[kingnebwsu]

I've been struggling with it lately too...after cashing in my first two, I've not cashed in like my last 3 or 4. -$1.00 overall with this strategy. Hopefully I can get it back soon.

It seems to work well when the people tighten up because they wanna get in the $$$. I'll try it again later this week...

[TroyF]

UGH - I've been trying this "Fishman" strategy today and I've been doing awful (which isn't any real surprise if you've been following my exploits). Through 8 SnGs I'm 0-8. By the time it gets down to 4 people, I'm usually down to $1000 or so chips, and I've got no leverage going all-in. I got called each time and beat each time. I don't see how this strategy could possible be successful unless you can play and win hands early so you can have some semblance of a bankroll before you're on the bubble.


Usually, from my experience, by the time it gets down to 4 people, you are already dealing with a 150 chip BB or more. If you've let your stack get to 1k by that point, you need to pull off a couple of all in moves with 5 or 6 people left. (swallow hard and go, it's still the same basic strategy, especially if you are on or 1 spot from the button) Once my stack hits 10x the BB, I'm ready to make some aggressive moves. Another thing I'll do at any point when the blinds get pushed to 50/100 or greater is that I'll pull off an all in move from late position when 2 or 3 players have limped in. You'd be surprised at how often they all fold and you get to instantly add 450+ chips. Sometimes you'll get called and your tourney will end when someone is slowplaying a big hand. That's life. My experience is that you'll get the chips more often than not.

Also, if you see the table is playing especially tight early on, take a few chances when you get up to the 50/100 level. Taking a couple of 150 chip pots can put you in good position.

And yes, it does help if you get lucky and hit a hand or two early. In fact, that can put you in a dominant position if you hit the flush or the set.

Despite playing with and tweaking the general philosophy a bit, I'm still holding in at the same level. I'm cashing near 50% and winning 20-25%.