Pats tell Deion Branch to s*ck it.

[rkmsuf]

No link but they just said on the radio via a breaking press release that the Pats have given Deion Branch permission to seek a trade until Sept 1 and go find a new deal elsewhere.

[Deattribution]

I personally think it's a shitty way to deal with their players, the guy preformed so why not pony up some money to reward him?

Same with Vinatieri.

Why did Brady take less money again? I thought it was to help keep the team intact.

[rkmsuf]

I personally think it's a shitty way to deal with their players, the guy preformed so why not pony up some money to reward him?

Same with Vinatieri.

Why did Brady take less money again? I thought it was to help keep the team intact.

Branch wants way to much for his skill set and value to the team. He thinks he's as good as Reggie Wayne. It's not even close.

I like it. Take care, brush your hair dude.

[sovereignstar]

Offering the former Super Bowl MVP less than what David Givens received in March just ain't right.

[rkmsuf]

Offering the former Super Bowl MVP less than what David Givens received in March just ain't right.

Using "Superbowl MVP" as leverage is for suckers. Big effing deal.

Tennessee overpaided for Givens. Doesn't mean NE should be sheep.

Guy was offered a good deal and turned his nose up at it. Fuck him.

[sovereignstar]

Using "Superbowl MVP" as leverage is for suckers. Big effing deal.

Are you kidding me?

[molson]

Are you kidding me?

Larry Brown

[Ksyrup]

Are you kidding me?

"Yeah, that's bullshit" - Larry Brown and Desmond Howard, in unison

[BrianD]

Are you kidding me?

Seems reasonable to me.

[sovereignstar]

The whole fucking goal is to win the Super Bowl and the guy has been nothing but money in two of them. Why could you not use postseason play as leverage in a contract? Because of the 162-game regular season? Oh wait..

[rkmsuf]

Are you kidding me?

no. like I give a crap who a bunch of media people and fans elected as their binky in the game. yes he had a great game but the title is meaningless.

see Larry Brown, Dexter Jackson and Desmond Howard.

Either you are great and deserve the money or not. It's independant of any mvp label.

[molson]

The whole fucking goal is to win the Super Bowl and the guy has been nothing but money in two of them. Why could you not use postseason play as leverage in a contract? Because of the 162-game regular season? Oh wait..

Arguing postseason play is fine, and relevant. But why let the voting of writers (and fans?) effect your negotiations?

[sovereignstar]

Seems reasonable to me.

Peachy, BrianD.

[BrianD]

Peachy, BrianD.

Pardon?

[sovereignstar]

Pardon?

PEACHY

[rkmsuf]

never mind that the guy has never scored more than 5 tds in a season or broken 1,000 yards.

guy had two great superbowls...can't ever take it away from him but he thinks he's commanding 6 years, 40 million? ya right.

[sovereignstar]

never mind that the guy has never scored more than 5 tds in a season or broken 1,000 yards.

guy had two great superbowls...can't ever take it away from him but he thinks he's commanding 6 years, 40 million? ya right.

Point me to the quotes where he says he deserves exactly what Reggie Wayne got, please.

[rkmsuf]

Point me to the quotes where he says he deserves exactly what Reggie Wayne got, please.


Branch wanted a deal that a player would receive in unrestricted free agency, which is often more because they have to compete with other teams for the player, therefore increasing the amount of money they are willing to invest, and for lower-class teams especially. An example of a deal Branch points to is the six year, $40 million deal that Reggie Wayne got.

that's wiki but there are numerous articles at the boston globe and herald detailing the negotiations.

branch is under contract anyway and he's not seymour or brady.


Pats offered him 4 years, guranteed 12 million up front. Guy has gone bonkers.

[kcchief19]

Given New England's success, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't disagree that giving a guy who has one or two great Super Bowls isn't necessarily good team managment if those were exceptions.

I think New England is finally starting to wear under the cap though. By and large, New England is a team that has thrived thanks to role players and a consistent system. If you let the role players go and bring too many new parts into the system, the system will break. That's just the way the NFL is. I think the cohesion effect Jim measures in FOF is a brilliant reflection of how cohesion really does work in the NFL.

If Branch wants too much money, I can see New England cutting ties. But at some point, the impact of losing too many guys like Brunch, Givens and Vinaterri will bite them in the ass. I think there'll be a lot of people piling on if this team goes out and is "teh suck" this year.

[sovereignstar]

Branch wanted a deal that a player would receive in unrestricted free agency, which is often more because they have to compete with other teams for the player, therefore increasing the amount of money they are willing to invest, and for lower-class teams especially. An example of a deal Branch points to is the six year, $40 million deal that Reggie Wayne got.

that's wiki but there are numerous articles at the boston globe and herald detailing the negotiations.

branch is under contract anyway and he's not seymour or brady.


Pats offered him 4 years, guranteed 12 million up front. Guy has gone bonkers.

You said he is commanding 6 over 40, not pointing out someone else's contract. 12 million up front? How do you figure?

[rkmsuf]

You said he is commanding 6 over 40, not pointing out someone else's contract. 12 million up front? How do you figure?

sigh.

he thinks he should get 6 yrs 40

pats offered 4 years with 12 up front/guranteed.

not sure how else to say it.

it's likely branch is a pat this year anyway. i've never seen a holdout with less leverage.

[FrogMan]

don't know how he can sack it, he doesn't even play on defense :confused: :confused:

FM

[Pumpy Tudors]

don't know how he can sack it, he doesn't even play on defense :confused: :confused:
:D

[DaddyTorgo]

rock on! i heard this coming home...deion and his agent have royally fucked up this whole negotiation process. he's not worth the $$ he's asking for either...let him walk

[st.cronin]

I feel ill.

[DaddyTorgo]

I feel ill.

why cronin? as stated below...he's asking way too much for someone with his skillset.

if the pats were going to give 6/40 to anyone i would have rather they gave it to givens, a big possession WR rather than a tiny lil "troy brown clone" of a wr who as someone said below has never had a 1000 yd season or scored more than 5td's. bottom line is the pats like to spread the ball around, having a "traditional nfl style #1 WR" isn't as important. And let's not forget Watson/Graham, Chad Jackson, and of course the Dillon/Maroney/Faulk monster. This team has enough offensive weapons. Not that they wouldn't be better with Branch, but he doesn't have that as leverage to hold them hostage.

[Draft Dodger]

The Pats have nothing to worry about, because Tom Brady's favorite reciever is the open receiver. Or so Sterling Sharpe mentioned about 24,003 times in the first half of the Arizona game.

[TroyF]

it's likely branch is a pat this year anyway. i've never seen a holdout with less leverage.


Two words. . . Ashley Lelie. You want to talk about a lack of leverage? Lets talk about how Ashley Lelie will have to pay over 400k for the right to play football this year.

As for Branch, he's one of those underrated players who everyone looks at traditional stats and thinks is average. He's far from it. He catches nearly everything that's thrown his way. He's been HUGE in 2 Super Bowls, not one.

He never fumbles the football. And he's going to become smarter and he's going to catch more passes. (he's on nearly the identical career path to Henry Ellard) When looking at non traditional type statistics (successful play percentage, rank against #1 CB's, DVOA and DPAR), he had a far better season than Wayne did last year.

The Patriots will regret not paying him the money if he does indeed leave.

[rkmsuf]

The Pats have nothing to worry about, because Tom Brady's favorite reciever is the open receiver. Or so Sterling Sharpe mentioned about 24,003 times in the first half of the Arizona game.

Cassel was DECISIVE as well.

That could have been the worst football color man performance ever broadcast on American television.

It got to the point I was physically cringing.

[Drake]

Tom Brady can win 12 games by himself. WR's are just a bonus.

[rowech]

Welcome to the salary cap era in the NFL. You can't have too much loyalty to one player or you bankrupt your team.

[rkmsuf]

Two words. . . Ashley Lelie. You want to talk about a lack of leverage? Lets talk about how Ashley Lelie will have to pay over 400k for the right to play football this year.

As for Branch, he's one of those underrated players who everyone looks at traditional stats and thinks is average. He's far from it. He catches nearly everything that's thrown his way. He's been HUGE in 2 Super Bowls, not one.

He never fumbles the football. And he's going to become smarter and he's going to catch more passes. (he's on nearly the identical career path to Henry Ellard) When looking at non traditional type statistics (successful play percentage, rank against #1 CB's, DVOA and DPAR), he had a far better season than Wayne did last year.

The Patriots will regret not paying him the money if he does indeed leave.

I actually have some weird respect for Lelie. He paid up to get out.

Pats offered Branch 6.5 a year to extend his contract 3 years and a host of it guranteed. I'll never say he isn't a good player but I would never say they should pony up any more or can't produce great offense without him.

I think Brady is a huge factor for him...moreso than his inherent tools. Pats also have done a massively great job gameplanning and attacking in specific ways to create favorable space and matchups.

I would bet Givens disappoints this season and we've seen what Patten can do yet both were big contributors in NE and made big plays.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Tom Brady can win 12 games by himself. WR's are just a bonus.
Oh, great, now st.cronin has changed his name, too.

[DaddyTorgo]

Tom Brady can win 12 games by himself. WR's are just a bonus.

i'll see your 12 and raise you 1

[Draft Dodger]

Cassel was DECISIVE as well.

That could have been the worst football color man performance ever broadcast on American television.

It got to the point I was physically cringing.

when you get to the point that my wife is repeating it, and she's barely paying attention, you've got an issue.

[stevew]

If you suck it, it's a win win.

http://users.zoominternet.net/~stevedubbya/thelordalmightyheavenlyfootballplayingdeity.jpg

[rkmsuf]

when you get to the point that my wife is repeating it, and she's barely paying attention, you've got an issue.

LOL, same exact thing here...I swear. She looked up and said something like "that guy is really annoying...he keeps saying the same thing over and over again."

[Galaxy]

His stats:
Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 2002 nwe | 13 | 2 0 0.0 0 | 43 489 11.4 2 |
| 2003 nwe | 15 | 1 11 11.0 0 | 57 803 14.1 3 |
| 2004 nwe | 9 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 35 454 13.0 4 |
| 2005 nwe | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 78 998 12.8 5 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 53 | 3 11 3.7 0 | 213 2744 12.9 14 |

[Pumpy Tudors]

when you get to the point that my wife is repeating it, and she's barely paying attention, you've got an issue.
:)http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8789/emotfh7mf.gif

[Draft Dodger]

i'll see your 12 and raise you 1

you forget - Pats are playing the NFC North this year. Let's make it 14.

(no, not seriously, but they do have what looks to be a pretty easy schedule)

[path12]

As for Branch, he's one of those underrated players who everyone looks at traditional stats and thinks is average. He's far from it. He catches nearly everything that's thrown his way. He's been HUGE in 2 Super Bowls, not one.

He never fumbles the football. And he's going to become smarter and he's going to catch more passes. (he's on nearly the identical career path to Henry Ellard) When looking at non traditional type statistics (successful play percentage, rank against #1 CB's, DVOA and DPAR), he had a far better season than Wayne did last year.

The Patriots will regret not paying him the money if he does indeed leave.

I agree with this. I think if NE wants to rely on Chad Jackson and the tight ends for their receiving this year they might be surprised......I think they're not as deep at the position as in the past and really should focus on Branch to get more passes.

Now, whether or not he's worth the money he's asking is another question entirely. But I think they will end up sorry if he goes elsewhere (unlike Givens).

[TroyF]

I actually have some weird respect for Lelie. He paid up to get out.

Pats offered Branch 6.5 a year to extend his contract 3 years and a host of it guranteed. I'll never say he isn't a good player but I would never say they should pony up any more or can't produce great offense without him.

I think Brady is a huge factor for him...moreso than his inherent tools. Pats also have done a massively great job gameplanning and attacking in specific ways to create favorable space and matchups.

I would bet Givens disappoints this season and we've seen what Patten can do yet both were big contributors in NE and made big plays.

I think Brady is huge to NE, but not so much to his #1 WR's. Because of his ability to see the field and NE's refusal to put in game plans that feature any specific WR, the #1 WR's don't get the ball as much as they could and they certainly don't get moved around for mismatches as a rule. I think you've seen the Pats actually design their passing game around Branch during those two Super Bowls and we've seen the results.

Last year Branch caught 78 passes, the next closes Patriot was at 59. After that it dropped to 39. The reason many of those underneath threats are open to catch as many balls as they have is because of Branch and his ability as a WR.

I think he'd catch 100 balls in an offense designed to his strengths. Keep in mind, I'm not blaming NE for doing it this way. They are winning, you can't argue with what they've done. But because they've played that way I think they and a lot of other people are going to use stats as a way to show how meaningless Branch is to them. . . and I think anyone thinking like that is making a monumental mistake.

I think he's much better and much more valuable to that offense than most people seem to think. It looks like he won't play at least at the start of the year. We are going to get a chance to see if I'm right.

[rkmsuf]

the knock I have on him is I don't think he possess the physical tools to be a classic #1 guy which is why NE is perfect for him. he's smallish and is not a burner at all. and injury prone so far.

I see it the opposite way. If he was consistently featured he would be shut down. His success is a function of their style, not the reverse. Teams made a huge mistakes in the Superbowls and NE crossed them up by totally changing philosophy. Yes he came through but he was not the focal point of the defense. A classic, big money #1 is and it doesn't matter.

He'll be here at some point though and I would never submit the Pats won't miss him. I just wouldn't break the bank for him.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Here's the deal. Branch is a good receiver. He is not a top receiver nor a prototypical #1. The key is Brady makes everyone look good. Even Bam Childress for god's sake. Branch is not Reggie Wayne (who would be a number 1 on other teams), not even close. Branch won SB MVP because Brady threw him the ball. Don't get me wrong, I would like him to stick around because is he good, contributes greatly, and can catch the ball, but not at an astronomical price, which is what he is asking for. And yes, his agent has brought up Wayne's contract many times as a comparable.

The simple fact is Brady has a lot of weapons now, and Branch has no leverage. Frankly, I think the trade negotiation part is simply a ploy for Branch to go talk to other teams and find out what he is NOT worth. I actually think this will help to renegotiate him when he finds out he can't get the money he is looking for.

I'd rather see the money spent on resigning Graham, Samuel and Koppen, who are all heading into FA next year.

I have no problem with the Pats' strategy of not overpaying their players (which is a better way to characterize it). I have come full circle and believe not resigning Vinatieri, McGinest, or Givens at those prices.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

the knock I have on him is I don't think he possess the physical tools to be a classic #1 guy which is why NE is perfect for him. he's smallish and is not a burner at all. and injury prone so far.

I see it the opposite way. If he was consistently featured he would be shut down. His success is a function of their style, not the reverse. Teams made a huge mistakes in the Superbowls and NE crossed them up by totally changing philosophy. Yes he came through but he was not the focal point of the defense. A classic, big money #1 is and it doesn't matter.

He'll be here at some point though and I would never submit the Pats won't miss him. I just wouldn't break the bank for him.

I agree. I believe the system (and QB) helps him, not hurts him. Even he has admitted that he has trouble with double teams.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I think he'd catch 100 balls in an offense designed to his strengths.

I disagree. Catching balls from a mid level QB with him as the consistent go to guy is not his strength. It's Brady throwing to 8 different guys that plays to his strength.

[Solecismic]

Don't tell the other guys in my fantasy league, but Givens received far too much money and the Titans are already regretting it.

The system and the quarterback make the receiver. What's strange is that to succeed as a receiver, having a massive ego is often a good thing, as long as they put in the work. Quarterbacks love a guy who is willing to take on a lot of responsibility.

Branch is far better than Givens, but he wants too much money and he's taking on the wrong team. I'm sure he'll get a payday next year, but he's making a huge mistake - one that will affect only his own legacy.

Lelie is an interesting head case, and apparently now the role model for Branch. The Broncos told him to stuff it, and his ego was so bruised that he invented a situation where he pretty much destroyed any remaining leverage he had. It's sad when your agent has to cough up a million just to buy you out of a contract.

[Ksyrup]

Clearly, Branch's biggest mistake was not hiring Dr. Drew Rosenpenis.

[Warhammer]

He never fumbles the football. And he's going to become smarter and he's going to catch more passes. (he's on nearly the identical career path to Henry Ellard) When looking at non traditional type statistics (successful play percentage, rank against #1 CB's, DVOA and DPAR), he had a far better season than Wayne did last year.


Most underrated WR of the last 20 years, Henry Ellard.

[st.cronin]

TroyF nailed it. I have no idea what's going on with Belichick these days.

[Phoenix]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fullerton.edu/ccws/images/jack-welch_portrait.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.fullerton.edu/ccws/profiles/index.htm&h=269&w=225&sz=6&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=bV32nVGWv-N2tM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djack%2Bwelch%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

It's just business - did I stutter?

[Phoenix]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fullerton.edu/ccws/images/jack-welch_portrait.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.fullerton.edu/ccws/profiles/index.htm&h=269&w=225&sz=6&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=bV32nVGWv-N2tM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djack%2Bwelch%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

forgot this

[Draft Dodger]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fullerton.edu/ccws/images/jack-welch_portrait.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.fullerton.edu/ccws/profiles/index.htm&h=269&w=225&sz=6&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=bV32nVGWv-N2tM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djack%2Bwelch%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

It's just business - did I stutter?

you didn't stutter. but you spell like an 8 year old, have about as much content in your posts as there is snow in hell, and you seem to have an unhealthy attraction to men who play quarterback. other than that and the fact that you've started a ton of useless threads tonight, you're doing great.

[Phoenix]

you didn't stutter. but you spell like an 8 year old, have about as much content in your posts as there is snow in hell, and you seem to have an unhealthy attraction to men who play quarterback. other than that and the fact that you've started a ton of useless threads tonight, you're doing great.

actually I have quite a command of the English language, I just wanted to see whether or not someone misspelling a bunch of words would aggravate you - I guess it really does - please be more tolerant of others who might not be as gifted as you and you'll be much more content with your own life

[Vinatieri for Prez]

TroyF nailed it. I have no idea what's going on with Belichick these days.

Keeping the franchise successful for the next 5 years.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

And here's some comments from Branch just this year about his difficulty with double coverage. This coming from a guy who wants serious #1 money.

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/patriots/?m=20060407

I believe the Chargers pass defense was rated 30th last season and 31st the season before.

[Axxon]

actually I have quite a command of the English language, I just wanted to see whether or not someone misspelling a bunch of words would aggravate you - I guess it really does - please be more tolerant of others who might not be as gifted as you and you'll be much more content with your own life

Jeez, for me that's waaay more tolerance than one man can bear. ;)

[Stevebsfan]

Pats offered Branch 6.5 a year to extend his contract 3 years and a host of it guranteed. I'll never say he isn't a good player but I would never say they should pony up any more or can't produce great offense without him.

According to the espn.com article, there were reports they offered a 3 year deal for $18.75m ($8m guaranteed), and a 5 year extension worth $31m with $11m in bonuses. That's a nice chunk of change, if they really offered that, i'll be shocked if he finds better over the next week, especially from a team with a real chance at winning.

[Stevebsfan]

TroyF nailed it. I have no idea what's going on with Belichick these days.

I think he's trying to send a message so this doesn't become a yearly thing. They caved to Seymour and guaranteed some of his contract with his holdout, but Branch is no Seymour and I think that's the message he's sending. I think it probably killed him to deal with Seymour before he wanted, and he's not about to let the team start holding out at will to get contract demands.

Seymour last year, Branch this year, who's next? Eugene Wilson? Asante Samuel? I don't think Harrison is thrilled with his contract, but he's sucking it up and playing for the deal he signed. As soon as BB starts caving to guys like Branch, I think it will set off a chain reaction.

As much as I love Branch, he's not on the level of a Seymour, Brady, etc.

[Draft Dodger]

actually I have quite a command of the English language, I just wanted to see whether or not someone misspelling a bunch of words would aggravate you - I guess it really does - please be more tolerant of others who might not be as gifted as you and you'll be much more content with your own life

very content, thanks. I interact with people constantly who are less gifted. most of them don't deliberately act like a dumbass though.

[Phoenix]

:) ok deal - I won't act like a dumbass any more

[Phoenix]

Keeping the franchise successful for the next 5 years.

I agree - that's why the Pats are never in salary cap hell and always a contender - they've got it figured out

[jeff061]

I agree - that's why the Pats are never in salary cap hell and always a contender - they've got it figured out

But my question is why are they 10 mil under the cap with the season about the start, after failing to land Ty Law like they damn well should have.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Because 1) they need the money for Branch, Samuel, Koppen, Graham, etc. to resign this year before hitting FA next year; (2) if they don't sign them all, they can pay some future bonus money this year to players already under longer contracts to lessen the cap problem in future years (they will probably do this with some of Seymour's money).

We must think long term here.

[RainMaker]

I actually think it's a fantastic move by the Pats. First, what the Pats are offering him is very fair for a player of his ability and stature. He isn't an elite receiver in my mind and I think the Pats are paying him just under elite receiver money. Letting him test the market will show him quickly that his value is right around what the Pats are offering him.

He may come across a team desperate for a receiver like the Eagles who will give him more money. However, I can't fathom the Pats not asking for a #1 or #2 for Branch which can be seen as steep (especially when you're going to pay the guy 7 million).

I think Branch should take his offer from the Pats and shut up. He's playing for a fantastic organization with the best coach in football. He has arguably the best QB in the league throwing to him and would be their featured receiver for years to come. To throw that away for a couple million just seems silly I guess.

[TroyF]

And here's some comments from Branch just this year about his difficulty with double coverage. This coming from a guy who wants serious #1 money.

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/patriots/?m=20060407

I believe the Chargers pass defense was rated 30th last season and 31st the season before.

What I'm reading there is that the Chargers put three men on Branch and yet NE wasn't able to adjust and was shellacked. If three of the 8 defenders of the worst pass defense in the NFL are covering one man, there should have been ample chances for other guys to make plays. Instead, Patrick Pass had 8 catches, and the Pats were shut down cold.

I don't think it was anything to get worried about, I attribute that horrific performence to a beat up defense and them getting used to making adjustments without Weiss.

As for Branch, you don't get good facing double teams the first year you're faced with it. (unless you are a Randy Moss or T.O.) It takes time. Wayne keeps getting brought up in this thread. Wayne has the same things going for him Branch has, outside of the fact he has a hall of fame WR on the other side of the field.

It wasn't until this past season defenses focused on Wayne more than Harrison. Look at the numbers and compare them to Branch. Not a lot different. Branch had a higher DVOA and a higher DPAR. (if you aren't familiar with the footballoutsiders, their website will explain what those stats mean) He was better against #1 CB's than Wayne was and he was more effecive on third down.

Lets just see what happens. I don't think Branch will be there for game one. I'm interested to see just how NE does. I don't care if you're Montana, Brady or Johnny Unitas, I think you need quality WR to throw the ball to. NE may be fine for most of the season without Branch. But I think they are going to feel his loss (should he not come back) against the upper tier teams.

I sure wish he was on the Broncos roster to replace Smith when he retires soon.

[SirFozzie]

The Pats are doing rather well without him so far.

[jeff061]

Because 1) they need the money for Branch, Samuel, Koppen, Graham, etc. to resign this year before hitting FA next year; (2) if they don't sign them all, they can pay some future bonus money this year to players already under longer contracts to lessen the cap problem in future years (they will probably do this with some of Seymour's money).

We must think long term here.
I'll believe it when I see it, other than Branch, that's the first I've heard of any of that. I think they'll let most or all hit free agency. Which I don't have a problem with. They need an anchor in the secondary, this "for the future" crap is bull.

[Galaril]

Wow 41-0! I the coach was sending amessage to Branch and the fans that they can score without Deion.

[k0ruptr]

WOW OMG you are so right,Deion is nothing and this preseason is awesome!!!

[Galaril]

WOW OMG you are so right,Deion is nothing and this preseason is awesome!!!

I am not a Pats fan (Titans actually) I was just giving an opinion as to the way it looks. IMHO. I mean everyone knows it is preseason but, if you lived here you would know that the local media especially sports radio on WEEI has been rehashing and second guessing both sides of this holdout. And people have this week started to say the Patriots were planning using Ben Waton like the the KC Chiefs have used Tony Gonzalez as the primary reciever. The guys had a big game last night and got a lot of looks.

[rkmsuf]

Wow 41-0! I the coach was sending amessage to Branch and the fans that they can score without Deion.

Pats tell Deion Branch to suck it....again.


As a sidenote, Reche Caldwell looked about as bad as you can look out there. It was a "he should be cut" type of performance. Irrelavent to the Branch stuff though. 89 year Troy Brown who runs a 5.3 now seems to be able to get open.

[Crapshoot]

very content, thanks. I interact with people constantly who are less gifted. most of them don't deliberately act like a dumbass though.

Really, I don't think Fite would appreciate that characterization. :D

[wade moore]

Pats tell Deion Branch to suck it....again.


As a sidenote, Reche Caldwell looked about as bad as you can look out there. It was a "he should be cut" type of performance. Irrelavent to the Branch stuff though. 89 year Troy Brown who runs a 5.3 now seems to be able to get open.

I just wish Rich Musinski would have been given some time in such a blowout :(.

[rkmsuf]

I just wish Rich Musinski would have been given some time in such a blowout :(.

William & Mary gets no respect.

[wade moore]

William & Mary gets no respect.

w0rd. Although we have the most guys I think, well, ever on pre-season rosters right now - 7. That's with 2 veterans that have been on NFL rosters for multiple seasons (Darren Sharper and Mike Leach) and then 5 guys on the bubble which it's looking more and more like we'll be lucky to have 1 make an NFL roster and 2 or 3 have a shot at Practice Squad spots.

*sigh*... I often wonder if I'm more biased in thinking they should get more of a shot or if NFL coaches/GMs are more biased in disregarding performance at the I-AA level.

[rkmsuf]

w0rd. Although we have the most guys I think, well, ever on pre-season rosters right now - 7. That's with 2 veterans that have been on NFL rosters for multiple seasons (Darren Sharper and Mike Leach) and then 5 guys on the bubble which it's looking more and more like we'll be lucky to have 1 make an NFL roster and 2 or 3 have a shot at Practice Squad spots.

*sigh*... I often wonder if I'm more biased in thinking they should get more of a shot or if NFL coaches/GMs are more biased in disregarding performance at the I-AA level.

I highly doubt there is a bias. I would imagine most nfl gms and coaches want to win and will pick the guys that give them the best chance.

Musinski might make the practice squad. Does he play special teams? That would help.

[wade moore]

I highly doubt there is a bias. I would imagine most nfl gms and coaches want to win and will pick the guys that give them the best chance.

Musinski might make the practice squad. Does he play special teams? That would help.

He was a punt returner in college, but admittedly not that great...

I would have thought his play in NFLE would have helped, but I guess not.

When I really analyze it objectively, I think he's too small/slow for the NFL to really make a ton of use out of him. He runs GREAT routes, has great hands, and has pretty good accelaration - but he has low top-speed for the NFL and is only 5'11", 200 lbs.

[Desnudo]

How far below the cap are the Pats right now? Branch may not be worth Reggie Wayne money, the Colts are going to be playing with two receivers, a QB, and no one else in a few years, but surely there's a middle ground somewhere.

You have to look at his relative value to what's available on the market. He's clearly better than anyone sitting on a couch right now. Although maybe TO will be exiting the Cowboys soon.

Edit: isn't franchising him an option? I don't think they've used that slot this year.

[rkmsuf]

How far below the cap are the Pats right now? Branch may not be worth Reggie Wayne money, the Colts are going to be playing with two receivers, a QB, and no one else in a few years, but surely there's a middle ground somewhere.

You have to look at his relative value to what's available on the market. He's clearly better than anyone sitting on a couch right now. Although maybe TO will be exiting the Cowboys soon.

Edit: isn't franchising him an option? I don't think they've used that slot this year.

Pats offered him the middle ground. They are under the cap but as someone pointed out they have other players to extend or resign. Also, I'll bet that they will end up right around the cap by the final roster anyway.

The time for franchising has passed for this season but that's certainly an option for 2007. At least an option to use as leverage in this case.

I think I heard the Eagles already on record as saying they think he's good but not worth Wayne money. Welcome back to Foxboro, Deion!

[Ksyrup]

Realistically speaking, how many teams have so much room under their cap that they could give him what they might otherwise have wanted to if he had been an unrestricted free agent in March? Doesn't that negate much of what the Pats are attempting to prove? All they're telling him is, "With less than 2 weeks until the season starts, this is as good a deal as you're going to get. This is your market value as of today." That might very well be true, but I think he was looking at the bigger picture of his worth on the market in general. It seems to me that if he decided to hold out, he was already aware that his market would be less now than it would have been over the summer.

[rkmsuf]

Realistically speaking, how many teams have so much room under their cap that they could give him what they might otherwise have wanted to if he had been an unrestricted free agent in March? Doesn't that negate much of what the Pats are attempting to prove? All they're telling him is, "With less than 2 weeks until the season starts, this is as good a deal as you're going to get. This is your market value as of today." That might very well be true, but I think he was looking at the bigger picture of his worth on the market in general. It seems to me that if he decided to hold out, he was already aware that his market would be less now than it would have been over the summer.

Kind of like when the Red Sox put Manny on waivers. A bit of a public f-you.

[Ksyrup]

But it doesn't really answer his claim that he's worth Wayne money, which is what they have said. Telling him he can test his market value at this point as if that will make him think teams wouldn't give him Wayne money, when the truth is they couldn't even if they wanted to, doesn't really seem to make sense. I understand what they're doing in a way, but in the bigger picture, if I was Branch, I'd see it as comparing apples to oranges.

[rkmsuf]

But it doesn't really answer his claim that he's worth Wayne money, which is what they have said. Telling him he can test his market value at this point as if that will make him think teams wouldn't give him Wayne money, when the truth is they couldn't even if they wanted to, doesn't really seem to make sense. I understand what they're doing in a way, but in the bigger picture, if I was Branch, I'd see it as comparing apples to oranges.

OK, if that's the case then how would he expect NE to come up with this money now then?

[TroyF]

I am not a Pats fan (Titans actually) I was just giving an opinion as to the way it looks. IMHO. I mean everyone knows it is preseason but, if you lived here you would know that the local media especially sports radio on WEEI has been rehashing and second guessing both sides of this holdout. And people have this week started to say the Patriots were planning using Ben Waton like the the KC Chiefs have used Tony Gonzalez as the primary reciever. The guys had a big game last night and got a lot of looks.

With their WR core as horrific as it currently is, that's their only option. They are going to have to go the route of the KC Chiefs offense. Run the ball a lot with Dillon and Maroney, and feature Watson as the #1 receiver.

With Brady being the machine that he is, that'll be more than enough to get them in the playoffs and they'll still hammer poor teams. (because their D is 200x that of the Chiefs defenses in Tony G's dominant years) But against good teams, that strategy backfires. Not having a solid WR to help stretch the D kills you. Terrific scheming and a terrific QB can only go so far, you have to have weapons on the outside who can make some plays against upper tier teams.

What I think everyone is missing here is this: Lets all agree that Branch is a #2 WR (even if I disagree massively with that take, I think he can be a solid #1) OK, so we agree he's a #2 WR, and clearly one of the top #2's in the entire league. With him gone, what to the Pats have now?

Brown is a solid #3 at his age. An increased workload will most certainly see him on the injured list sooner than later. Who else even approaches the level of a #3 WR now? I'm not sure that any Patriots wideout save Chad Jackson (because he's a young, highly touted rookie) and Brown would be picked up were they to get released. They are simply horrible.

I'm just taking the money out of it. I understand what those of you who don't want to overpay for Branch are saying. (again, I don't agree with it, but I see the point) But I also look at a major weakness on a team that usually doens't have a lot. I think their lack of WR will kill them against upper level competition.

[Ksyrup]

OK, if that's the case then how would he expect NE to come up with this money now then?

My guess is his feeling is - that's their problem. They had the chance back before they ran out of cap room to accommodate what he wanted.

I'm not saying he's worth it, but that's got to be his position.

[rkmsuf]

My guess is his feeling is - that's their problem. They had the chance back before they ran out of cap room to accommodate what he wanted.

I'm not saying he's worth it, but that's got to be his position.

So in his mind as of right now no team including the Pats can afford him so he's going to sit out for no reason since there is no possible win monetarily for him. Forget 3 years 18 million. That's chump change.

This way he can avoid injury, return to the team by week 11 and then remain inactive for the remainder of the year. That way he'll be in a great position during the 2007 offseason to score that elusive big contract.

[TroyF]

So in his mind as of right now no team including the Pats can afford him so he's going to sit out for no reason since there is no possible win monetarily for him. Forget 3 years 18 million. That's chump change.

This way he can avoid injury, return to the team by week 11 and then remain inactive for the remainder of the year. That way he'll be in a great position during the 2007 offseason to score that elusive big contract.

That's exactly what he's saying.

You keep putting your perspective on it. Fine. He thinks he's worth more than that 3 year 18 million dollar offer. (I think he's worth more as well, but again, that doesn't matter)

The Patriots are playing thier cards with the big FU to him. That's their right. His right is to do what you just suggested. Hold out, pout, come in for the final 6 games so he gets his service time and then test his value next year. It's two sides playing what cards they have.

I side with the player here. . . you side with the franchise. . . we'll all see his relative value to the team the longer his absence continues.

[Ksyrup]

Peter King answered one of my questions:


Here are the teams, with cap money available as of the close of NFL business on Friday, that would think of making a play for Branch:

• Minnesota ($10.4 million under the cap): After losing Koren Robinson, this is a team with a good veteran quarterback, Brad Johnson, and no reliable wideout. I doubt Minnesota will do something as bold as paying Branch and surrendering a first-round pick, but you just don't know how desperate owner Zygi Wilf is feeling after the Robinson embarrassment.

• Buffalo ($8.8 million under): The Pats aren't afraid to deal within the division, as they showed with Drew Bledsoe. But maybe the bomb Peerless Price caught from J.P. Losman the other night will make Marv Levy think he can get by with Lee Evans and flotsam at wideout.

• Green Bay ($8.3 million under): Talk about a perfect replacement for Javon Walker, who has yet to be replaced in the north country.

• Kansas City ($12 million under): Herman Edwards saw him twice a year for the last four years, and his starters now are the aging Eddie Kennison and Samie Parker. That's a lot of money to be burning a hole in Carl Peterson's pocket.

• New York Jets ($7.0 million under): They've taken everything else that wasn't nailed down in Foxboro. Why not Brady's favorite receiver?

• Seattle ($10.0 million under): If I were Mike Holmgren, I'd do it. Darrell Jackson gets hurt every 10 minutes, and you know you're picking near the end of the first round almost no matter what happens in January. Take the shot. Trade the first-round pick and sign Branch long-term.

• San Francisco ($10.1 million under): The Niners need players at almost any position.

• Cleveland ($8.5 million under): Romeo Crennel knows Branch and loves him. But he also just bought Joe Jurevicius in free agency, and a threesome of Braylon Edwards, Jurevicius and Dennis Northcutt hardly is a weak position group on a team in need of help elsewhere.

[rkmsuf]

That's exactly what he's saying.

You keep putting your perspective on it. Fine. He thinks he's worth more than that 3 year 18 million dollar offer. (I think he's worth more as well, but again, that doesn't matter)

The Patriots are playing thier cards with the big FU to him. That's their right. His right is to do what you just suggested. Hold out, pout, come in for the final 6 games so he gets his service time and then test his value next year. It's two sides playing what cards they have.

I side with the player here. . . you side with the franchise. . . we'll all see his relative value to the team the longer his absence continues.

I merely suggest his side is stupid in the scenario you describe in that it doesn't help his value.

He bluffed, the Pats called and the smart move is to come in. He has to realize that no matter what the Pats record is they will never, ever cave into what he wants.

Right or wrong that's his reality as I see it.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Two things. As Peter King pointed out, there are plenty of teams with a need for WR and cap room to sign him. So, that shoots the hole in the argument Ksyrup that the strategy is dumb because he won't get any offers anyway because everyone is up against the cap. You also see that NE is not the only team with lots of cap room. Second, his strategy for the big contract next year, after coming in very late won't really work because the Pats hold the franchise tag over his head (although he would cash in on a big 1-year deal but no big bonus).

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I guess what I don't quite understand is a team that won 3 SBs, is still in great cap shape (was able to extend the best QB and D-lineman in the game, has their entire young offensive line - except Koppen -- under contract for many years to come), and has always spent to the cap before gets this much flak from even their own fans.

[TroyF]

I merely suggest his side is stupid in the scenario you describe in that it doesn't help his value.

He bluffed, the Pats called and the smart move is to come in. He has to realize that no matter what the Pats record is they will never, ever cave into what he wants.

Right or wrong that's his reality as I see it.


Thing is, I think he accepts that. I think he realizes that the Patriots aren't caving. And I don't think he has any plans on caving. The Patriots have made their call. It's now up to him. And I think he'll make his call. It'll be the scenario you described above. Come in and play the final 6 and then walk.

None of us will know what it does to his value until he signs his contract next year. If the Pats were to struggle because of WR issues on offense, I'd imagine it'll increase his value. If he shows up wiht 6 weeks to go and the Pats, no matter how good they were to that point, see a noticeable increase in production, that'll also help his value.

The flip sides would hurt it.

I find the whole thing sad myself. He's by far and away the best WR on the Patriots. He's a class citizen and has produced like gangbusters in the clutch. His two Super Bowl performences are right up there with the best two ever in the history of the game. And he's getting better each year. This is the year I figured he'd move into the 90+ catch, 1200+ yard mark and instead he'll likely be sitting on the couch most of the year. That sucks from a fans perspective. Watching Reche Caldwell try to replace him should be good for some laughs though.

[rkmsuf]

Watching Reche Caldwell try to replace him should be good for some laughs though.

Caldwell shouldn't even make the team but he probably will.

[TroyF]

Two things. As Peter King pointed out, there are plenty of teams with a need for WR and cap room to sign him. So, that shoots the hole in the argument Ksyrup that the strategy is dumb because he won't get any offers anyway because everyone is up against the cap. You also see that NE is not the only team with lots of cap room. Second, his strategy for the big contract next year, after coming in very late won't really work because the Pats hold the franchise tag over his head (although he would cash in on a big 1-year deal but no big bonus).

It was reported on a Philadelphia radio statioin that the Patriots asking price is two first round picks.

Even if we drop it to one first round pick, that smacks me of hypocricy. On one hand they are telling him he's not worth Reggie Wayne money or that of a #1 WR and yet they are asking any team that wants him to pay for it like he is one. I know it's negotiations and all, but if he's really just a glorified #2 WR, why would they be asking for such a ridiculous price?

[SirFozzie]

Thing is, I think he accepts that. I think he realizes that the Patriots aren't caving. And I don't think he has any plans on caving. The Patriots have made their call. It's now up to him. And I think he'll make his call. It'll be the scenario you described above. Come in and play the final 6 and then walk.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats escalate it if that happens by putting him on some kind of suspended list a couple weeks before, denying him the payoff

[WSUCougar]

TWO 1st round picks?

*spews out clam chowder*

[rkmsuf]

TWO 1st round picks?

*spews out clam chowder*

I only heard one. In essence he's already franchised without having to pay him a dime if they are willing to proceed with him on the sidelines.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

It was reported on a Philadelphia radio statioin that the Patriots asking price is two first round picks.

Even if we drop it to one first round pick, that smacks me of hypocricy. On one hand they are telling him he's not worth Reggie Wayne money or that of a #1 WR and yet they are asking any team that wants him to pay for it like he is one. I know it's negotiations and all, but if he's really just a glorified #2 WR, why would they be asking for such a ridiculous price?

Not surprising. It's called the "starting point" of negotiations. But also, because it's no surprise they don't want to trade him. The Pats, as I stated above, are just giving Branch an opportunity to speak to other teams to gauge his worth. Depending on the response, it could help or hurt him, but I don't think both sides having more information of the landscape is a bad thing.

I believe Branch will sign before week 1 or 2 at a decent price (a little bit higher that what the Pats have offered so far), but I could see it being only a 2-year deal.

[stevew]

It was reported on a Philadelphia radio statioin that the Patriots asking price is two first round picks.



bwaahahahaha

[rkmsuf]

I just wish Rich Musinski would have been given some time in such a blowout :(.


New England Patriots Released wide receivers Keron Henry and Rich Musinski, center Brian Barthelmes, cornerback Hank Poteat, linebacker Freddie Roach and guard Nick Steitz.

:(

[wade moore]

New England Patriots Released wide receivers Keron Henry and Rich Musinski, center Brian Barthelmes, cornerback Hank Poteat, linebacker Freddie Roach and guard Nick Steitz.

:(

Yup :(. I think tis was probably his best shot at making ar oster in the NFL in his career.

[TroyF]

Yup :(. I think tis was probably his best shot at making ar oster in the NFL in his career.


Well, if you can't make the Patriots roster as a WR now, you probably should just head off to Canada or the Arena leagues and finish off your career.

Especially with Branch still holding out, this Patriots WR core is simply horrible right now.

[rkmsuf]

Well, if you can't make the Patriots roster as a WR now, you probably should just head off to Canada or the Arena leagues and finish off your career.

Especially with Branch still holding out, this Patriots WR core is simply horrible right now.

What, Bam Childress doesn't get you pumped up?

[wade moore]

Well, if you can't make the Patriots roster as a WR now, you probably should just head off to Canada or the Arena leagues and finish off your career.

Especially with Branch still holding out, this Patriots WR core is simply horrible right now.

My point exactly... It pains me to face the truth as he is one of the best players I have seen play at the I-AA level (he came within i believe 1 or 2 games of tying Jerry Rice's consecutive receptions record)... But some things that translate in I-AA (or I-A for that matter) just do not translate to the NFL level. Having good moves and sure hands means little if you are 5'11 and can't run below a 4.5 40 (I don't know his actualy 40 time, I'm just guessing).

[rkmsuf]

Branch has tentative deal with Jets, SeahawksBy Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com


With the clock ticking toward a Friday 4 p.m. deadline for striking a deal, league sources confirmed for ESPN.com that New England Patriots wide receiver Deion Branch has reached agreement with the New York Jets and an unnamed NFC team on a long-term contract that meets his demands. The NFC team is believed to be the Seattle Seahawks.


Deion Branch
Wide Receiver
New England Patriots

Profile
2005 SEASON STATISTICS
Rec Yds TD Avg Long YAC
78 998 5 12.8 51 245



But neither team, the sources acknowledged, has been able to come to an agreement with the Patriots on compensation for the four-year veteran. And without the second half of the deal in place, the deadline could pass without a trade, and again force Branch to decide whether to extend his camp-long holdout.


A deal with the Jets would reunite Branch with first-year head coach Eric Mangini, who previously was the defensive coordinator in New England.


Representatives for Branch were expected on Friday to apprise Patriots officials of the status of talks with other teams. New England last Friday granted Branch permission to discuss a potential trade with other teams. It's believed that none of the suitors involved with Branch are willing to offer the Patriots more than a second-round draft choice. New England is seeking a first-round pick and perhaps a middle-round choice as well.


Whether the Pats would consider extending the deadline to enter into trade negotiations with the two clubs attempting to land Branch is unknown. Part of New England's strategy in granting Branch permission to deal with other teams, it seems, was to try to force some kind of resolution to stalemate before the start of the regular season.


People close to Branch insist that he will not crack and will report to the Patriots only for the final six games of the season, enough to earn an accrued year toward the pension, and to qualify him for unrestricted free agency next spring.


While last week's move by the Patriots was surprising, it was also reflective of the state of discussions between the two sides. There has been virtually no meaningful dialogue for weeks and Branch, the team's leading receiver in 2005, remains out of camp and is being fined at the rate of $14,000 per day during his absence.


It is believed that, at some point in the offseason, the Patriots offered two extension proposals: a three-year deal worth $18.75 million with $8 million of that guaranteed, and a five-year extension at $31 million, with $11 million in bonuses.


Branch, 27, is scheduled to earn a base salary of $1.05 million in 2006, the final season of the original five-year contract he signed as a second-round choice in the 2002 draft. And the base salary is only that high because Branch performed well enough to trigger an "escalator" in the contract that raised his compensation by $500,000.


Team officials indicated as far back as March that securing an extension with Branch was a priority, but the sides have been unable to strike a deal and talks seem at a dead end.


Branch is coming off a career year in 2005, when he had 78 receptions for 998 yards and five touchdowns. For his career, Branch has 213 catches for 2,744 yards and 14 touchdowns. He has appeared in 53 games and logged 42 starts. He earned most valuable player honors in Super Bowl XXXIX when he tied a title game record with 11 receptions, netting 133 yards.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2568851

[path12]

I would love to have him here in Seattle, especially with Jackson appearing to be slow to recover from his injury.

[Ksyrup]

Well, the biggest question in my mind is - what were the two offers? If they are for much more than the Pats offered, then Branch has essentially called their bluff and they have to give in. All indications are that they did this to prove to him that he wouldn't get much more money on the open market. If they're wrong, he wins. If the money would basically be the same, then they still have leverage and can force him to negotiate with them after today's deadline passes. But it all hinges on what the offers were.

[rkmsuf]

Well, the biggest question in my mind is - what were the two offers? If they are for much more than the Pats offered, then Branch has essentially called their bluff and they have to give in. All indications are that they did this to prove to him that he wouldn't get much more money on the open market. If they're wrong, he wins. If the money would basically be the same, then they still have leverage and can force him to negotiate with them after today's deadline passes. But it all hinges on what the offers were.

he doesn't win barring a trade. big deal he got offers. that fact remains that if he wants to play football this year it will be under his current deal or the terms NE sets. I think the Pats could give a flying f*ck what offers he says he got and it will be a cold day in hell when the Pats "match" a big Jet contract renegotiation offer for the guy.

[Ksyrup]

he doesn't win barring a trade. big deal he got offers. that fact remains that if he wants to play football this year it will be under his current deal or the terms NE sets. I think the Pats could give a flying f*ck what offers he says he got and it will be a cold day in hell when the Pats "match" a big Jet contract renegotiation offer for the guy.

But that was the whole purpose of why they did what they did, wasn't it? I realize he is still likely to get stuck with a "play for us or don't play at all" response from the Pats, but in my mind, they come off as the loser to their fans and the public. They claimed he wasn't worth the money he wanted and told him to shop himself so that he could see first-hand he wasn't worth that much. If two teams have made offers well above (likely not matching what he wanted) the Pats' offer, then they've just lost the challenge. He's called their bluff. They said no other team would pay him above X and he's got two teams willing to do just that (again, assuming the offers are that substantial).

In my mind, the Pats are going to get exactly what they deserve. He may not be worth what he wants or what those two teams are willing to pay, but they put themselves in this position by daring him to find a better offer. He did.

[stevew]

What exactly are the Jets even doing here. Unless they think they can get him for a 2nd and 3rd or something. They are smoking crack if they give up their #1 next season for him. They are likely to be in the bottom half of teams even with him.

[rkmsuf]

But that was the whole purpose of why they did what they did, wasn't it? I realize he is still likely to get stuck with a "play for us or don't play at all" response from the Pats, but in my mind, they come off as the loser to their fans and the public. They claimed he wasn't worth the money he wanted and told him to shop himself so that he could see first-hand he wasn't worth that much. If two teams have made offers well above (likely not matching what he wanted) the Pats' offer, then they've just lost the challenge. He's called their bluff. They said no other team would pay him above X and he's got two teams willing to do just that (again, assuming the offers are that substantial).

In my mind, the Pats are going to get exactly what they deserve. He may not be worth what he wants or what those two teams are willing to pay, but they put themselves in this position by daring him to find a better offer. He did.

One thing you need to account for is that the Pats could give a rats ass about their perception here.

They certainly must have considered he would get an offer if for no other reason in other teams mind to put the pressure back on NE. I think the Pats would geniunly take a #1 for the guy and it was worth it to find out.

Either way the fact he called their bluff is meaningless. If you weren't going to pay him before you aren't now and the only value of the situation was to see what kind of compensation you could get from other teams so you could determine whether to let the guy sit out or move him.

I love the way the Pats operate. They are one of the finest run organizations from top to bottom in all of sport.

[rkmsuf]

What exactly are the Jets even doing here. Unless they think they can get him for a 2nd and 3rd or something. They are smoking crack if they give up their #1 next season for him. They are likely to be in the bottom half of teams even with him.

It's their attempt to tweak the Pats. Heck it's probably totally fiction. Some boob proabably just said when asked "Sure we'd give him X for X years if we could work out a deal" and BOOM there's your story.

[TroyF]

But that was the whole purpose of why they did what they did, wasn't it? I realize he is still likely to get stuck with a "play for us or don't play at all" response from the Pats, but in my mind, they come off as the loser to their fans and the public. They claimed he wasn't worth the money he wanted and told him to shop himself so that he could see first-hand he wasn't worth that much. If two teams have made offers well above (likely not matching what he wanted) the Pats' offer, then they've just lost the challenge. He's called their bluff. They said no other team would pay him above X and he's got two teams willing to do just that (again, assuming the offers are that substantial).

In my mind, the Pats are going to get exactly what they deserve. He may not be worth what he wants or what those two teams are willing to pay, but they put themselves in this position by daring him to find a better offer. He did.

Exactly. He won. Now the Patriots are in a nightmare. They either give in and pay or they have their best WR sit until the final 6.

I don't see Branch doing anything but playing in those final 6 either. The Patriots can't suspend him unless he does something. I don't think Branch is stupid enough to miss team meetings or anything like that. He'll show up, put in six weeks of work + playoffs and then he's going to get his big deal.

The Patriots told him he wasn't worth it and then challenged him to get an offer he found acceptable. He ended up getting TWO offers that were acceptable. Now the Patriots bluff is called and the ball is in their court. Either pay him what his market value is or play without him for 10 weeks and watch him take off next year.

[HomerSimpson]

Branch has tentative deal with Jets, SeahawksBy Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com


With the clock ticking toward a Friday 4 p.m. deadline for striking a deal, league sources confirmed for ESPN.com that New England Patriots wide receiver Deion Branch has reached agreement with the New York Jets and an unnamed NFC team on a long-term contract that meets his demands. The NFC team is believed to be the Seattle Seahawks.


Don't these teams also have to meet the Patriots demands?


I am assuming they are still demanding a 1st round pick for a player in his last year of contract.

[FrogMan]

Exactly. He won. Now the Patriots are in a nightmare. They either give in and pay or they have their best WR sit until the final 6.

I don't see Branch doing anything but playing in those final 6 either. The Patriots can't suspend him unless he does something. I don't think Branch is stupid enough to miss team meetings or anything like that. He'll show up, put in six weeks of work + playoffs and then he's going to get his big deal.

The Patriots told him he wasn't worth it and then challenged him to get an offer he found acceptable. He ended up getting TWO offers that were acceptable. Now the Patriots bluff is called and the ball is in their court. Either pay him what his market value is or play without him for 10 weeks and watch him take off next year.

but now, without knowing exactly what the offers were, how do we knoa that they were not the exact same offers that the Pats made to him but were simply acceptable to him now because they were coming from somebody else than the Pats? I mean, we just don't know what was in these offers. $31M over five years might become acceptable if it's not coming from the Pats and he got fed up and wants to get out...

FM

[rkmsuf]

Don't these teams also have to meet the Patriots demands?


I am assuming they are still demanding a 1st round pick for a player in his last year of contract.

Yep, that's why these teams chiming in that they'd pay Branch big dollars is a joke unless they put their money where there mouth is. Like Seinfeld said..."anyone can take the reservation...the key is holding the reservation."

The Winnepeg Blue Bombers just called....they'd pay Branch 1 BILLLLION dollars next except sadly he's NFL property.

[TroyF]

It's their attempt to tweak the Pats. Heck it's probably totally fiction. Some boob proabably just said when asked "Sure we'd give him X for X years if we could work out a deal" and BOOM there's your story.


If you and the Pats fans want to believe teams are doing things just to tweak you, I think you are in a dillusional dream state.

The Just coaching staff knows all about Branch. They have a poor WR core themselves and I see no reason they wouldn't want him. The Seahawks are a coast away and don't give a damn about tweaking the Patriots.

Fact is, no matter how hard it is for the Patriots or you to believe, there are a lot of people who think Branch is one hell of a WR and a guy they'd want to add to their teams if the Patriots don't want him.

Now it comes down to compensation and this is where it's going to get funny for me. The Pats don't think he's a #1 WR, don't think he should get paid like one. . . and they probably won't settle for anything less than a #1 pick. Nope, we don't want to pay you. Nope, you can't go anywhere unless we get #1 WR value.

Yep, we'll enjoy having you for six more regular season games in your Patriots career.

[Ksyrup]

That's why I said initially that all that really matters now is what those offers were. Either they validate Branch, or they validate NE.

[molson]

Now it comes down to compensation and this is where it's going to get funny for me. The Pats don't think he's a #1 WR, don't think he should get paid like one. . . and they probably won't settle for anything less than a #1 pick. Nope, we don't want to pay you. Nope, you can't go anywhere unless we get #1 WR value.


I don't think the Pats are being inconsistent. All they're saying is "Look, if you can find a team to pay you #1 WR money, and give up #1 WR compensation for you, we'll let you go". Half of the formula is in place, if a team steps up with the second half, he's gone, and everyone's happy. I don't see how anyone's bluff has been called.

The Pats obviously realized that he'd be worth more on the open market - they're not retarded.

[rkmsuf]

Fact is, no matter how hard it is for the Patriots or you to believe, there are a lot of people who think Branch is one hell of a WR and a guy they'd want to add to their teams if the Patriots don't want him.






So let's see them put up or shut up. You think he's that great than here's the price. If not so sad for you.

Sometimes you have to overpay for a guy you really want. Sucks but hey he's Henry Ellard right? To me if I'm a Jets fan I'd be furious if the Jets made a move here to trade NE a #1.

I personally find zero sympathy for this player considering he's under contract and been offered several deals with lots of guranteed money. Hey he doesn't want to be here that's his business but it in no way says that Pats are somehow screwing him.

Objectively it's simple to me. When 4 rolls around and if there is no deal it's hard for me to see where Branch is in any way a winner here just because 2 teams said they'd redo his deal.

Let him sit out if he wants. That's his choice but I would bet anything that his "image" takes more of a hit than the NE Patriots football team. Maybe Branch will do some additional interviews where he talks more about "pulling a TO".

[Ksyrup]

I don't think the Pats are being inconsistent. All they're saying is "Look, if you can find a team to pay you #1 WR money, and give up #1 WR compensation for you, we'll let you go". Half of the formula is in place, if a team steps up with the second half, he's gone, and everyone's happy. I don't see how anyone's bluff has been called.

Because that's not what Branch and the Pats were/are negotiating. The draft pick compensation isn't, hasn't been, and won't be a part of Branch's negotiation. He has no control over what other teams are willing to pay NE for his rights. His sole challenge was this: "We think we made fair offer and don't think the market would bear anything substantially higher. In fact, we're so confident of that, we'll let you shop yourself for such an offer, because we don't think you'll find one." He did (we think).

Whether those teams come to an agreement with the Pats doesn't really matter from the standpoint of Branch's negotiation with the Pats. If anything, if I put on my Scott Boras hat, I'd argue that if the Seahawks were will to pay 50% more than the Pats offer PLUS a 2nd round pick (deemed to be insufficient by the Pats), then Branch has proven his value is not only higher than the Pats' offer, but it's higher by the value of the Seahawks offer PLUS the value of a second round pick. So the Pats should be paying him his "market value" in that amount, or they can fuck off until November.

[rkmsuf]

Because that's not what Branch and the Pats were/are negotiating. The draft pic compensation isn't. hasn't been, and won't be a part of Branch's negotiation. He has no control over what other teams are willing to pay NE for his rights. His sole challenge was this: "We think we made fair offer and don't think the market would bear anything substantially higher. In fact, we're so confident of that, we'll let you shop yourself for such an offer, because we don't think you'll find one." He did.

.

That is blatently incorrect.

The Pats said they "grant Branch permission to seek a trade." that's it. pat's could care less what teams say they will reup him for above and beyond what's on the table.

[Ksyrup]

Objectively it's simple to me. When 4 rolls around and if there is no deal it's hard for me to see where Branch is in any way a winner here just because 2 teams said they'd redo his deal.

Because the Pats dug themselves a hole and now might find themselves buried in it. They set the parameters of the challenge and he (possibly) met it. His market value appears to be set at a point higher than the Pats said it would. End of story.

Objectively, I have no horse in this race and don't care how it comes out. My perception of this whole thing is strictly as a neutral observer. I'm not sure how much Branch is really worth or whether he has a legitimate gripe here. I just know what the circumstances were when the Pats told him to go get a "reality check" and he came back with a big fat, reality check for them. In my mind, the Pats lose and Branch is at least somewhat justified for arguing that the Pats are lowballing him.

[Ksyrup]

That is blatently incorrect.

The Pats said they "grant Branch permission to seek a trade." that's it. pat's could care less what teams say they will reup him for above and beyond what's on the table.

No. I don't care what the "official" line was. Every single commentator has said that the Pats' motivation here was to prove Branch wrong, that he would come back to the table when no team would pay him near what he wanted, and that he'd be on the team come opening day. I'm sure they would be happy to trade him away if they got what they wanted out of it, but it was mostly a ploy to allow him to assess his value in the league and to "see the light" by today's deadline. That they didn't publically spell it out in those terms doesn't mean that's not exactly what they were doing.

[rkmsuf]

Because the Pats dug themselves a hole and now might find themselves buried in it. They set the parameters of the challenge and he (possibly) met it. His market value appears to be set at a point higher than the Pats said it would. End of story.

.


If he meets the challenge and arranges a trade by 4 then it's a win/win. Otherwise nothing changes.

I laugh at all the reference to the Pats being "buried" or in a "nightmare" like they are just screwed and the press and fans are set to burn down Gillette Stadium.

[Passacaglia]

No. I don't care what the "official" line was. Every single commentator has said that the Pats' motivation here was to prove Branch wrong, that he would come back to the table when no team would pay him near what he wanted, and that he'd be on the team come opening day. I'm sure they would be happy to trade him away if they got what they wanted out of it, but it was mostly a ploy to allow him to assess his value in the league and to "see the light" by today's deadline. That they didn't publically spell it out in those terms doesn't mean that's not exactly what they were doing.

But you have to admit, it seems awfully easy for a team like the Jets to say, yeah we WOULD pay you that much...but if they're not willing to trade for him, it doesn't give Branch much leverage.

[molson]

Every single commentator has said that the Pats' motivation here was to prove Branch wrong, that he would come back to the table when no team would pay him near what he wanted, and that he'd be on the team come opening day.

We'll never know, to 100% certainty, the answer to this, but I just find it impossible to believe that ANY team would "dare" a player in this manner, when all it would take is ONE team to prove them wrong (and that team could prove them wrong without actually comitting to anything). The Pats would have more knowledge about Branch's league-wide value than Branch would, it just makes no sense that they would be that stupid.

[Ksyrup]

But you have to admit, it seems awfully easy for a team like the Jets to say, yeah we WOULD pay you that much...but if they're not willing to trade for him, it doesn't give Branch much leverage.

It justifies his holdout, though, which is presumably what the Pats were trying to end by either (a) Branch not getting the kind of offer he thought he should get and signing a deal with the Pats close to what they offered, or (b) Branch getting the offer and the Pats trading him. Those are the only two winning situations for the Pats. Anything else, and they lose this battle, IMO. How can they expect him to come back to the table and sign a reduced deal when he's proven he's worth more? Even if everyone acknowledges that the Jets' offer was likely not legit, isn't that the risk the Pats took when they sent him on this mission 2 weeks ago, that some team would offer him the sky and tell the Pats we'll give you 2 dozen footballs for him in return?

[QuikSand]

And amidst all this hubbub, there are still a few of us who believe he'll be in uniform and on the field for opening day with the Pats.

[rkmsuf]

And amidst all this hubbub, there are still a few of us who believe he'll be in uniform and on the field for opening day with the Pats.

That's the most likely scenario. He'd be a fool to sit out until week 11.

[Ksyrup]

We'll never know, to 100% certainty, the answer to this, but I just find it impossible to believe that ANY team would "dare" a player in this manner, when all it would take is ONE team to prove them wrong (and that team could prove them wrong without actually comitting to anything). The Pats would have more knowledge about Branch's league-wide value than Branch would, it just makes no sense that they would be that stupid.

The problem is that even if they legitimately just wanted him the hell off the team and wanted a "fair" price for him, they had to know that if he got the kind of offer he had been asking for from the Pats and the other team wouldn't pay what the Pats wanted for him, that they'd be back to square 1, except now they'd have a guy who has proof, legit or not, that he's worth more than the Pats were offering. It's no longer theoretical, even if you can argue over whether the offer was truly made in good faith. And that makes the Pats look bad in my eyes.

Especially if it comes down to a 2nd versus 1st round pick. IMO, a 2nd for Branch is imminently reasonable, especially considering the circumstances. The Pats holding out for a 1 just tells me they had no intention of trading him unless another team completely caved. So that takes me back to the "challenge" scenario.

Either way I look at it, things could work out fine for both Branch and the Pats, but if not, I think the Pats look much worse here.

[molson]

Has anyone ever actually held out until week 11?

[Ksyrup]

And amidst all this hubbub, there are still a few of us who believe he'll be in uniform and on the field for opening day with the Pats.

Sure. But what's the fun in that, especially when things have gone as far as they have?

[Passacaglia]

Has anyone ever actually held out until week 11?

I think Galloway did, in Seattle.

[stevew]

At this point, he may as well get some good insurance, and then show up for week 1. If he can't get a deal done. Go out there and get 1300 yards and 85 catches. Of course, then he probably gets franchised next offseason, and the cycle starts over again.

[TroyF]

If he meets the challenge and arranges a trade by 4 then it's a win/win. Otherwise nothing changes.

I laugh at all the reference to the Pats being "buried" or in a "nightmare" like they are just screwed and the press and fans are set to burn down Gillette Stadium.


When it comes to Branch, they are. Doesn't mean the team is screwed. Doesn't mean they won't be a great team. Doesn't mean they aren't great at evaluating talent.

But when it comes to Branch, they are in a nightmare now. Their best WR by far and away (debate if he's a #1 or not, but he's certainly the Pats #1) is holding out and the Pats lost any type of hold over him they hadif he did in fact get two big offers. Now he's not going to hold any qualms about sitting out until he's forced to report.

They are about to lose 2/3 of the season with their best WR and then get nothing for him in FA. (they could franchise or transition him, but that'd give him the one year salary he wanted anyway)

This isn't the end of the NE dynasty. It also isn't some terrific situation for them either.

[QuikSand]

Has anyone ever actually held out until week 11?

Joey Galloway with Seattle is the only one I can recall.

[QuikSand]

Bobby Hebert sat out a whole season, and pretty much flushed his precarious career in the process. But Galloway is, I think, the only guy to sit out and then come back deliberately to tick his clock one more year ahead in order to become a free agent. (He then got tagged and traded to Dallas for two firsts)

[rkmsuf]

When it comes to Branch, they are. Doesn't mean the team is screwed. Doesn't mean they won't be a great team. Doesn't mean they aren't great at evaluating talent.

But when it comes to Branch, they are in a nightmare now. Their best WR by far and away (debate if he's a #1 or not, but he's certainly the Pats #1) is holding out and the Pats lost any type of hold over him they hadif he did in fact get two big offers. Now he's not going to hold any qualms about sitting out until he's forced to report.

They are about to lose 2/3 of the season with their best WR and then get nothing for him in FA. (they could franchise or transition him, but that'd give him the one year salary he wanted anyway)

This isn't the end of the NE dynasty. It also isn't some terrific situation for them either.

I agree it's not a great situation, particularly when you look at the issue of franchising him.

To me him turning down a five-year extension at $31 million, with $11 million in bonuses says he's off his rocker to some degree though if he would prefer his current prospect of a holdout or trade to a lousy team over one additional year on the deal or a few million. 6 years and 40 is fairly comperable I would think.

I can't speak for him though and if the Jets or whoever wants to spend 8-10 million a season on this player I say go right ahead and live with the depleted state of receivers currently on the roster.

[Eaglesfan27]

It's ESPN, so take it for what it is worth, but while driving out to lunch, they repeatedly said that sources have indicated that NE is asking for 2 1st round picks which is blatantly absurd for a WR of Branch's caliber. They don't want to pay him like a #1 WR, but they want more than Moss was worth in a trade? If true, and if the Jets or Seahawks are offering a 1st and they turn it down, I think Branch could be upset enough to sit out until week 11.

[VPI97]

if he would prefer his current prospect of a holdout or trade to a lousy team over one additional year on the deal or a few million.
Seattle is lousy?

[Ksyrup]

It's ESPN, so take it for what it is worth, but while driving out to lunch, they repeatedly said that sources have indicated that NE is asking for 2 1st round picks which is blatantly absurd for a WR of Branch's caliber. They don't want to pay him like a #1 WR, but they want more than Moss was worth in a trade? If true, and if the Jets or Seahawks are offering a 1st and they turn it down, I think Branch could be upset enough to sit out until week 11.

Apparently they're going with precedent on this one and asking for what Seattle got for Galloway - which is ironic since Seattle may be one of the teams they are dealing with.

[rkmsuf]

Seattle is lousy?

No, of course not. I had Jets on the brain.

[rkmsuf]

Apparently they're going with precedent on this one and asking for what Seattle got for Galloway - which is ironic since Seattle may be one of the teams they are dealing with.

Right. He is essentially franchised without using the tag.

And in all likelyhood the franchise player next year unless a team ponies up a first round pick at least.

He will have 3 options:

1. Play out his deal, become a free agent and either sign with NE or become franchise tagged.

2. Sign a new deal with NE now, somewhere in the 6 per year area for 3-5 years.

3. Sit out until week 11 and then be assured of getting franchise tagged.

[TroyF]

Right. He is essentially franchised without using the tag.

And in all likelyhood the franchise player next year unless a team ponies up a first round pick at least.

He will have 3 options:

1. Play out his deal, become a free agent and either sign with NE or become franchise tagged.

2. Sign a new deal with NE now, somewhere in the 6 per year area for 3-5 years.

3. Sit out until week 11 and then be assured of getting franchise tagged.


I don't think the third option is a bonified lock. The Patriots aren't going to be in a power position next offseason. If they franchise him, he's going to be paid amongst the top three or four WR in the game. That entire salary will count against NE's cap until he signs or is traded.

If he accepts it, it could end up costing NE a lot more in the long run. (I read something where Walter Jones repeatedly signing one year franchise tenders was worth more than if the Seahawks had just given hi a long term deal the first year)

I'm not so sure he'd get the franchise tag. I'd bet more on the transitional tag.

[rkmsuf]

It's reported that it's

6 years 36 million from NY

6 years 39 from Seattle

for Branch's supposed redone deal.

And NE wants 2 #1 picks.

On the radio so no link.


What's the compensation for a transitional tag?

[stevew]

It's reported that it's

6 years 36 million from NY

6 years 39 from Seattle

for Branch's supposed redone deal.

And NE wants 2 #1 picks.

On the radio so no link.


What the compensation for a transitional tag?
No compensation for that jb.

Just the chance to match it.

[stevew]

dola, transitional tag is paid out at the average of the top 10, and I believe it is now a guaranteed contract tag as well. So it's likely to be never used again.

[rkmsuf]

No compensation for that jb.

Just the chance to match it.


lol

maybe they double offer

[rkmsuf]

I don't think the third option is a bonified lock. The Patriots aren't going to be in a power position next offseason. If they franchise him, he's going to be paid amongst the top three or four WR in the game. That entire salary will count against NE's cap until he signs or is traded.

If he accepts it, it could end up costing NE a lot more in the long run. (I read something where Walter Jones repeatedly signing one year franchise tenders was worth more than if the Seahawks had just given hi a long term deal the first year)

I'm not so sure he'd get the franchise tag. I'd bet more on the transitional tag.


Problem for Branch if he decides to sit out until week 11 is that the Pats will have a huge fine they have every right to demand. That opens up all kinds of tag possiblities.

I think his fine by week 10 is around 1.5 million.

[rkmsuf]

LOL, the Branch camp is filing a grievance now.

This is one of the most ridiculous things in the history of football considering the deals offered by the Pats and the market.

[SirFozzie]

ESPN Insider was saying all the other teams wanted to offer for Branch was 2nd or third round picks, and that it wasn't expected to work

[TroyF]

LOL, the Branch camp is filing a grievance now.

This is one of the most ridiculous things in the history of football considering the deals offered by the Pats and the market.

???

I don't understand this. Do you have first hand knowledge of how much of the other contracts is gaurenteed money vs. fluff money?

Didn't Branch want "Reggie Wayne" money. Reggie got 6 years, 40 million, right? Isn't that right in line with what Seattle offered? NE told him he wasn't worth it, then offered him the chance to find someone who would. He did and now you are going to say it's just a few million so he shouldn't care?

If the extra 7 or 8 million on the contract was just minor, why did NE & you ever complain about it and try to say repeatedly he wasn't worth it? If it was so minor, they'd pay him. If the team doesn't count it as minor, you can't expect him to.

[AlexB]

At this point, he may as well get some good insurance, and then show up for week 1. If he can't get a deal done. Go out there and get 1300 yards and 85 catches. Of course, then he probably gets franchised next offseason, and the cycle starts over again.

Maybe he should call Javon Walker about that idea?

[stevew]

Maybe he should call Javon Walker about that idea?

Walker still got paid, even with a bum ACL. Granted a lot of his money is not guaranteed until after this season, but there's a pretty good chance he will make it.

[TroyF]

Walker still got paid, even with a bum ACL. Granted a lot of his money is not guaranteed until after this season, but there's a pretty good chance he will make it.


Yeah, he's only getting paid big money if he's healthy this year. Without that injury and another solid year, he'd have had a huge deal signed.

[stevew]

That's why you take out the insurance policy before reporting.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I agree. This is not Branch throwing something in NE's face or the Pats "getting what they deserve." Look, the parties were deadlocked. The Pats thought two things. One, let us see what Branch can get from other teams. If it's not too bad, we'll match it. If it's high, we will try to move him. Otherwise, he plays 6 games and he's gone (with no compensation because I don't think they will franchise him next year at what the cost will be -- they may threaten it but I don't think they will do it). And it makes sense that if other teams think he is #1, then they might pay for it in draft picks. If not, then keep him and give him the dollars. This whole idea was to get things moving and it certainly has. I still predict Branch will remain a Patriot with a new deal.

And also, all that is key is the offers were less than Reggie Wayne money, which they probably are. Thus, in doing this, they will have obviously set the ceiling for Branch. And thus better focus the negotations.

[Maple Leafs]

I love the concept of telling players to seek out their own trade.

Player: "I'm an elite talent."
Team: "Fine, go find a trade. We want a first round pick."
Player: "I can't find any teams that will give up a first round pick for me."
Team: [whistles innocently]
Player: "Oh."

[TroyF]

And also, all that is key is the offers were less than Reggie Wayne money, which they probably are. Thus, in doing this, they will have obviously set the ceiling for Branch. And thus better focus the negotations.

Depending on the amount of gaurenteed money, the Seattle deal being reported nearly matches the Wayne contract.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

IF that is true, then the Pats are left with their decision. I think at this point you have to match the offer (or come close to offset their rights under the current contract and franchising ability) or trade him away (provided the trade offer is decent and I think a 2nd is almost there. Anything other than that, and they will look bad and I will be disappointed. All along I said he wasn't worth the money and thus the Pats were doing ok by me. But if he is worth it (i.e. someone will pay it), then they have to put up or shut up.

[SirFozzie]

From ESPN (not the whole article, and it's a free one)

Basically, the best offer they got was for a 2nd rounder, and they wanted a first rounder and a middle rounder at the very least (were asking for two first rounders), and negotiations never got far with either team.

The greivance is apparently that the Pats told Branch if they got fair value they would trade him, and Branch thinks a 2nd round pick should be fair value (kinda depresses the argument that he should get what he's asking for isn't it?)

The two deals with Seahawks and Jets were 6 year, 39 million deals with Branch getting $23 million over the first three years.

Full story: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2568851

Personally, I am on the Pats side. They promised to trade him if they got an offer they thought was fair, and didn't get it, ergo they won't trade him.

[TroyF]

From ESPN (not the whole article, and it's a free one)

Basically, the best offer they got was for a 2nd rounder, and they wanted a first rounder and a middle rounder at the very least (were asking for two first rounders), and negotiations never got far with either team.

The greivance is apparently that the Pats told Branch if they got fair value they would trade him, and Branch thinks a 2nd round pick should be fair value (kinda depresses the argument that he should get what he's asking for isn't it?)

The two deals with Seahawks and Jets were 6 year, 39 million deals with Branch getting $23 million over the first three years.

Full story: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2568851

Personally, I am on the Pats side. They promised to trade him if they got an offer they thought was fair, and didn't get it, ergo they won't trade him.


I'm on both sides. I disagree with the Patriots, but they don't have to trade him or pay him. I have no issues with Branch believing he's good enough to be a #1 and forcing the action. I have zero problems with Branch holding out until the final six and then forcing the Pats hands.

The only thing that could swing this is if the Patriots told Branch what they felt was fair at the start and then backed off. I don't think they are that idiotic. The events of the last 48 hours makes me think the complete opposite of QS. I don't think Branch reports until week 11 now. My guess is he never plays another down for the Patriots.

[Audible]

If a were Branch I'd sit out the whole year. They wanted two first rounders for me but aren't willing to pony up? Like someone once said, if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

[SirFozzie]

if he sits out the year, he doesn't get to be a FA next year.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats find a loophole that does just that, make him sit out the whole year and lose the year towards FA. Probably the suspended list.

[path12]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats find a loophole that does just that, make him sit out the whole year and lose the year towards FA. Probably the suspended list.

Good luck getting free agents in the future if they play that card.

[stevew]

I'd strongly doubt the union would have allowed a rule to be put into place as to where a player was able to be suspended for not reporting. That would eliminate any holdout leverage at all. Cause the new CBA supposedly took away a lot of the things teams were able to do to players. Once he reports in week 11, he just has to follow their rules, and he'll get out.

[Swaggs]

If the Pats treat Branch like this, they aren't going to be getting any hometown discounts when resigning their own players and open-market FAs aren't going to take them seriously unless they overpay.

I don't get valuing him enough to make him worth two 1st rounders, but not paying him Reggie Wayne (elite #2 WR) money.

[Audible]

Pats are hardcore communists!

;)

[Vinatieri for Prez]

So, reading the ESPN article, this is what I gleaned:

"It is thought that, at some point in the offseason, the Patriots offered two extension proposals: a three-year deal worth $18.75 million with $8 million of that guaranteed, and a five-year extension at $31 million, with $11 million in bonuses."

"Branch had earlier reached agreements with the Seahawks and Jets on what ESPN.com has learned was a six-year, $39 million contract. The contract included a combined $13 million in guaranteed signing and option bonuses. Under the contract, Branch would have earned nearly $23 million in the first three years of the deal."

To me it appears the Pats offers were pretty close, and the 3-year deal was perhaps even better, since Branch would be lining up for another bonus in 3 years. I'm totally confused now. Is his agent a moron or am I missing something? To me it looks like the Pats have been very fair here.

The grievance thing is purely a PR stunt. However, it does appear things just got a lot more contentoius here, rather than the opposite effect.

[TroyF]

So, reading the ESPN article, this is what I gleaned:

"It is thought that, at some point in the offseason, the Patriots offered two extension proposals: a three-year deal worth $18.75 million with $8 million of that guaranteed, and a five-year extension at $31 million, with $11 million in bonuses."

"Branch had earlier reached agreements with the Seahawks and Jets on what ESPN.com has learned was a six-year, $39 million contract. The contract included a combined $13 million in guaranteed signing and option bonuses. Under the contract, Branch would have earned nearly $23 million in the first three years of the deal."

To me it appears the Pats offers were pretty close, and the 3-year deal was perhaps even better, since Branch would be lining up for another bonus in 3 years. I'm totally confused now. Is his agent a moron or am I missing something? To me it looks like the Pats have been very fair here.

The grievance thing is purely a PR stunt. However, it does appear things just got a lot more contentoius here, rather than the opposite effect.


First off, the "it's been reported" stuff is all leaks. None of us know the actual contracts or the language in each. It looks to me like the Seattle deal is pretty damned sweet for him. If that 31 million, 5 year deal by the Patriots contains a lot of back bonuses, it could easily come out to far less than 23 million in three years.

But why debate this part of the thing? Branch said he wanted Reggie Wayne money. The Patriots said "you aren't worth it." Branch showed he can get it. Now it's in the Patriots court to either pay the hell up or be without their best WR this year.

As for the repeated comments "The Patriots are so smart, they'll suspend him and make sure he doesn't get his year counted for tenure," the Patriots won't be able to do that. Again, Branch would have to pull a T.O. He'd have to get into fist fights with teammates, get written up repeatedly, lash out at the Patriots in the press. . .

It aint happening The Patriots have their choice now. It's pretty obvious. Personally, I think if they really wanted to keep Branch, they screwed the pooch hard this week. I was in the QS camp before this week started. Branch would complain, bitch, moan and then at the end of the day, he'd walk in and play from week one.

Now I think Branch is beyond pissed and will look to find anyway out of NE he can, this year or next. If no trade occurs and he plays for the Patriots this year, I think it comes in the final six. NE was always going to be stubborn in their refusal to pay Branch. Now they've pissed Branch off enough that he's going to dig his heels in.

Both sides end up losers for at least 11 weeks now. We'll see what happens after that.

[HomerSimpson]

Problem for Branch if he decides to sit out until week 11 is that the Pats will have a huge fine they have every right to demand. That opens up all kinds of tag possiblities.

I think his fine by week 10 is around 1.5 million.
Does this include all the money he would of lost by not playing this year?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

It's separate. You don't get paid if you holdout. So, by not playing, he loses probably about 700k of his million salary for the year, and gets fined 1.5 million. This means his holdout costs him about 2.2 million. This incidentally is the difference in signing bonus in the Seattle/Jets deals and the 5-year deal offered by the Pats (if those reports are accurate). I fully believe the Pats will stick it to him, if an eventual deal is not worked out and then trade him after designating him as a franchise player.

[Galaxy]

It's separate. You don't get paid if you holdout. So, by not playing, he loses probably about 700k of his million salary for the year, and gets fined 1.5 million. This means his holdout costs him about 2.2 million. This incidentally is the difference in signing bonus in the Seattle/Jets deals and the 5-year deal offered by the Pats (if those reports are accurate). I fully believe the Pats will stick it to him, if an eventual deal is not worked out and then trade him after designating him as a franchise player.


Two things:

If the Patroits franchise him, they have to pay him the salary of the average of the 5-highest paid receivers of this season. And they are stuck with it, if Branch accepts. Also, not one is going to give up two first round picks for him. So the franchise tag would no be an "upper" hand for the Patroits. It would put them in a corner.

One thing about contracts you have to remember is the value of the dollar at the time you receive it. By this, $5 million now would be worth more than $5 million in five years. A signing bonus is paid right when you sign that contract.

[kcchief19]

I think the Pats have screwed themselves. Their original argument was the Branch wasn't worth the money he was seeking. Now that Branch can get the money he was apparently seeking, the Patriots want compensation equivalent to the value of the contract Branch can get from another team but they don't think he's worth. That just makes the Patriots look petty.

Normally, I want think both sides should live up to their contractual obligations, but that rule is somewhat suspended in the NFL to the lack of guaranteed contracts. At this point, it's in Branch's self-interest to minimize the threat of injury to get his payday. That's the fault of a system that isn't broken but has a few kinks in it.

I just don't see how logically the Pats can argue that Branch isn't worth No. 1 receiver money, but then demand No. 1 receiver compensation in trade. It makes sense from a business standpoint, but so does Branch's stance. He's called the bluff.

It'll be interesting to see where the grievance goes. I also am very intrigued to see where this team goes from here. We're seeing a lot of turmoil and turnover with a team that hasn't had a lot of either in the last few years. The Patriots system has been pitch perfect for six years now -- it looks like we're seeing some cracks.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Not quite KCC. The reverse can also be argued. Since Branch received a #1 money contract, aren't they entitled to proper compensation for a #1 receiver? Similarly, Branch contends he's a #1 receiver, but files a grievance because the Pats should have accepted a 2nd rounder for him, rather than requiring a 1st. Basically, I think all parties are going to lose in this one.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

If the Patroits franchise him, they have to pay him the salary of the average of the 5-highest paid receivers of this season. And they are stuck with it, if Branch accepts. Also, not one is going to give up two first round picks for him. So the franchise tag would no be an "upper" hand for the Patroits. It would put them in a corner.


Nah, he is a marketable asset and can always be moved (for at least a minimum 2nd rounder next season). So, even if they franchise him and he accepts, they can always dump him for the best offer. They wouldn't be in a corner at all.

[HomerSimpson]

Hey Chief, I think Branch is actually proving that he is NOT worth the Big money because he can not find a single team in the NFL that would be willing to give up a 1st round pick for him.


If no team in the NFL is willing to give up a 1st round pick for him, why should the Patriots be required to meet his salary demands?

[Tigercat]

Good to Elite players can't usually get big time future draft compensation. Everyone knows there is precedent for this. You will see teams ask for high draft picks in return for big time backs, for example, and get no bites.

Hell, is Branch 4x better than Stallworth and Walker? Cause all they were worth is a 4th round pick.

If the Pats said they would be reasonable in what they ask for in a trade, asking for a first(or more) for a vet asking for or needing a new contract right away isn't fair based on precedent, and it isn't in good faith with what they promised.

[HomerSimpson]

Wasn't Ricky Williams traded from the Saints to the Dolphins for two 1st round picks in the last year of his contract?

[Tigercat]

Ricky still had at least 4 years left, on a cheap contract(remember his agents agreeing to a contract that was too heavily incentive based?), and wasn't traded because he wanted more money. Ricky was traded because the Saints wanted to go with the other first round RB they had, the one that wasn't flaky, and they had other areas of need that could be addressed.

Ricky was traded for a first and a third, a third which could escalate to a first if Ricky rushed for 1500 yards.(which he did)

[watravaler]

Just move him already BB. Get something for him while you can, and stop screwing around. A 2nd + 4th is damn good compensation for a guy who is probably a product of the system.

[TroyF]

Hey Chief, I think Branch is actually proving that he is NOT worth the Big money because he can not find a single team in the NFL that would be willing to give up a 1st round pick for him.


If no team in the NFL is willing to give up a 1st round pick for him, why should the Patriots be required to meet his salary demands?


Nah, that's a simple question of how much power the Pats now have in this. Every team has to know the Patriots don't want to deal with this situation all year. They are lowballing them. Do you think the Seahawks, who will likely be picking toward the end of round 1 would really be that concerned with a #1 pick?

According to all reports I've read, the Patriots aren't asking for 1 pick, they are asking for two #1 selections. Very few NFL players are going to be traded for two #1's.

Look, I think the Patriots flat out butchered this. If they keep their mouths shut, don't just break off negotiations and offer to let Branch seek out a trade, none of this happens. I think Branch would have walked in within the first couple weeks of the season and this wouldn't have been a big story.

Instead, they did what they did and then Branch got damned near the exact contract the Patriots said he wasn't worth. The Patriots arrogance really bit them in the ass here. Again, say what you want about him being a product of the system, a #2 WR, a pathetic WR. . . he's by FAR and away the best WR on the Patriots. Nobody even comes close. He's the #1 WR in NE. The Patriots actions the last week almost assure they won't have their #1 playing for them this season. It's now a bunch of #3's and Ben Watson.

Brady doesn't have to prove anything to anybody anymore. But if he has a quality year with that group of wideouts, I think we just need to make an exception and cast his plaque now.

[molson]

Pats move ahead, trade for Doug Gabriel.

At the end of the day, as a Pats fan, I'm glad they're not giving Branch the big money. WR just isn't a key position on a Belichick team, or a Tom Brady offense.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Espn also stated today that Seahawks STILL have interest in Branch. If they jump, that means Pats get Gabriel and a late first or maybe 2 and 3. I think I like it since the Branch relationship is now in tatters.

Does anybody out there know much about him. He was pencilled in as starter over Porter and Curry?? Is that just because of Curry injury and Porter trade requests?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

It's separate. You don't get paid if you holdout. So, by not playing, he loses probably about 700k of his million salary for the year, and gets fined 1.5 million. This means his holdout costs him about 2.2 million. This incidentally is the difference in signing bonus in the Seattle/Jets deals and the 5-year deal offered by the Pats (if those reports are accurate). I fully believe the Pats will stick it to him, if an eventual deal is not worked out and then trade him after designating him as a franchise player.

I must correct myself. The fines end at the end of training camp. Then they just hold back paychecks. This means his total loss probably is closer to the 1.5 million, not 2.2.

[KevinNU7]

Let's say in theory Branch rides the pine until 6 games left in teh regular season.

Does anyone actually think that the Patriots will actually play? I know they will let him dress and he will ride the pine but I don't see him getting any PT. Then he can enter the F/A market next season after not playing for an entire year.

That should make it difficult for him to get a good contract next season.

[TroyF]

Let's say in theory Branch rides the pine until 6 games left in teh regular season.

Does anyone actually think that the Patriots will actually play? I know they will let him dress and he will ride the pine but I don't see him getting any PT. Then he can enter the F/A market next season after not playing for an entire year.

That should make it difficult for him to get a good contract next season.


Nah, he'll have a market. He's still a young, proven WR and a lot of teams need help there. He'll still get his contract. If anything, with more teams out there, he may even get more money.

As for Gabriel, he's a steal. I'm not sure what Oakland is thinking. One of the worst trades I've seen in a long while. He's still raw though. He's probably where Branch was at the beginning of the season two years ago. Still, he's under contract cheaply for two years. Typical Raider moronic move. He probably made fun of an Al Davis jump suit.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Interesting take on the Branch situation now that it is where it is. This from an email to the Boston Herald:

"Given that the best “official” offer for Deion Branch is a 2nd rounder in the 2007 draft, why shouldn’t the Patriots just let him sit for the first 10 games? In either scenario, he’s not on the field for the Patriots. And it’s not like we won’t be able to get a 2nd rounder for him during the off-season. It’s a really (lousy) WR FA group, and there is NO DIFFERENCE between getting a 2nd round pick in the 2007 draft NOW and getting a 2nd round pick in the 2007 draft next March.

“Actually, there is - it’s preferable to wait. That way the Patriots have a better sense of draft position, there are more teams vying for his services and maybe it provides time for cooler heads to prevail and for Deion to reconsider.

“In any case, given the compensation being offered for Branch as of now, and given the fact that that’s not likely to be any better than it will be 7 months from now, the only reason we might prefer doing the deal for 2006 is to rid ourselves of the headache/distraction. Otherwise, if he’s so dug in, he can STAY dug in and sit.”

[Chubby]

Why would a team offer a pick next march? He'll be a FA and be gone for nothing. Pats fans grasping at straws are funny.

[TroyF]

Why would a team offer a pick next march? He'll be a FA and be gone for nothing. Pats fans grasping at straws are funny.

Exactly. They'll have to franchise or transition him, and I'm not convinced the Patriots will do either one.

[BishopMVP]

Exactly. They'll have to franchise or transition him, and I'm not convinced the Patriots will do either one.About midway through training camp, Branch/his agent said he'd come in to play this season under his normal contract if the Patriots agreed not to franchise him after this year. The Patriots management refused to do so. Barring injury, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't franchise him, at the least to get something back in a trade.

[TroyF]

About midway through training camp, Branch/his agent said he'd come in to play this season under his normal contract if the Patriots agreed not to franchise him after this year. The Patriots management refused to do so. Barring injury, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't franchise him, at the least to get something back in a trade.


There are a ton of other factors they have to consider before they do it. That includes how aggressive they plan on being in FA next year. (I know they haven't been the past few years, but anything can happen in a year) It also depends on what the salary for that position is.

Say all of you that assume Branch sitting out will hurt his value and make it less likely he gets a big contract are right. What if Branch looks at the market for five days, realizes he's screwed and signs the deal. The Patriots now have themselves a guy who is paid as one of the highest paid WR in the game and any team trading for him will have that cap number over their heads.

This game of chicken has just started. The Patriots hold some, but not all of the cards here. For either side to start spouting off now as being in a power position is foolish.

The only thing we know now is this:

1) The Patriots made the situation worse, not better, when they allowed Branch to seek out a contract and a trade with another team. Instead of having him in camp about now, they are going to likely not see him until week 11.

2) The Patriots are planning for life without Branch. The trade for Gabriel speaks volumes.

3) The ball is now fully in Branch's in terms of playing this year. He called the Pats bluff, now the Pats are going to find out if he was bluffing or if he wasn't.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Can't agree. There is no doubt they will franchise him now. It gets them a draft pick on a trade. It's a no lose situation. Even if he signs the tender and its guaranteed, they still ship him out. The franchise agreement will not be an impediment because any team trading him will sign him to the deal they prefer, and he would want it because it would give him signing bonus money. If they ship him out quickly after they franchise him, it won't even prevent them from signing other free agents with the same money.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Why would a team offer a pick next march? He'll be a FA and be gone for nothing. Pats fans grasping at straws are funny.

You're funny for not understanding how the franchise tag works in the NFL. John Abraham anyone?

[Tigercat]

That only works well when you have the leverage of at least POSSIBLY keeping the player at the franchise salary or if its a very high marque player that is in high demand.

Branch, after a season off the field, will not be a well thought of enough player. No team will deal with the Pats unless they accepted what teams are willing to pay now or even less. Other teams will play hard ball dareing the Pats to keep Branch and pay the top 5 WR salary, which they won't. Eventually the Pats would have to cave and get LESS for him than they could now.

So, no, it wouldn't be a good idea for the Pats to wait till after the season. Its never a good idea to lose that much leverage.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Still disagree. So what if they still only get a 2nd rounder for Branch. As stated above, a 2nd rounder now is the same as getting a 2nd rounder next March.

And I totally disagree his value will go down. Even playing only 6 games, I actually expect his value to go up next year. There will be way more teams (with more cap space) in the running at that time.

Not to mention later this season when teams start losing WRs to injury, Branch becomes VERY valuable at that stage. A perfect example was Keenan McArdell going to San Diego last year. Finally, there is also the reason of setting a hardball precedent for future potential holdouts. If you deal Branch now for low value your giving him exactly what he wants (and would further encourage future holdouts).

Still completely agree with the Pats strategy. Until another team ponies up with good picks, let's keep him. I mean seriously, a second rounder to a division rival -- no thanks.

[Tigercat]

You are right, its a good strategy if it nets even a 2nd rounder. I don't understand how his trade value could possibly go up, add that with more leverage, and as an outsider looking in I can't imagine the Pats getting the same or more for him in the offseason though. We shall see.

[TroyF]

Can't agree. There is no doubt they will franchise him now. It gets them a draft pick on a trade. It's a no lose situation. Even if he signs the tender and its guaranteed, they still ship him out. The franchise agreement will not be an impediment because any team trading him will sign him to the deal they prefer, and he would want it because it would give him signing bonus money. If they ship him out quickly after they franchise him, it won't even prevent them from signing other free agents with the same money.

Again, you overstate how powerful the Patriots are in this. if Branch were to sign the franchise tender, it would damned well impact the team that trades for him. They can sign him to an EXTENSION, but the one year cost would still be at one of the top 3 to 5 highest paid players for next season. The key word there is Branch SIGNS the tender. That puts him under contract for next year. The renegotiation would be for future years in the deal.

And keep in mind, I said that was under the scenario that Branch was having difficulty negotiating with teams. Lets say he's not getting what he wants from other teams. If the Pats have that franchise tag on, he's could sign it quickly and the Patriots would be screwed.

You continue to overstate how much NE is in control of this situation. From the start of this thread you have. You, like NE, said Branch was nothing more than a 2 and didn't deserve and couldn't get Reggie Wayne money. Oops. He did. Now you think the Patriots hold all the cards in the deck. They don't.

They hold SOME cards. And Branch holds some cards. And now it's a game of poker to see how those cards are played.

So far NE has did a piss poor job of playing theirs. Despite their recent successes, I'm not convinced they'll play this out right. Their best move is to probably just get rid of their headache right now. Ship him to Seattle, out of the conference, for a second round pick and move on. Situation over.

While I don't think Branch has a chance in hell of winning his greivences, that's into play as well. If Branch hits the lottery and wins one of those, NE has even bigger problems to deal with.

[stevew]

If you were Branch's agent, do you sign the Tender quickly(within a week or so), or do you let it drag out all summer and risk having it pulled. I think I sign it quickly, 8 million or so guaranteed for one season isn't chump change. Go out then, have a big year, and you're still young enough to get a contract the next year.

I feel a bit more for Branch than I did for Javon Walker cause Branch was a 2nd round pick, didn't get a great bonus, and his agent locked him into too long of a deal(5 years).

[QuikSand]

I feel a bit more for Branch than I did for Javon Walker cause Branch was a 2nd round pick, didn't get a great bonus, and his agent locked him into too long of a deal(5 years).

That's curious logic.

[stevew]

That's curious logic.

Walker got more in rookie signing bonus than Branch made in his whole rookie contract. Branch's agent was an idiot for signing him to a 5 year rookie deal, probably for an extra 200k or so at the most. Granted, that's the difference between being a first and second round pick. When a guy plays great and genuinely hasn't been paid too much more than the minimum his whole career, I kind of feel bad for him for a split second.

But, those 2 patriots proposals were pretty fair, and he should have probably signed the 3 year 18 million dollar one.

[QuikSand]

I am generally not inclined to give players a complete pass on their agents's decisions. Perhaps it's naive of me to believe this, but I still think it's ultimately the player who decides what to do, and the agent pursues his objectives.

If Branch didn't want to potentially be locked into a below-market deal (where a holdout was his only option) then he should have pursued a shorter deal with less money guaranteed, and made that clear to this agent. He didn't.

[TroyF]

I generally have few problems with players who hold out in football with a contract. The exceptions are guys who pull the stunt within a year or two of signing the deal. (as Terrell Owens did)

You have such a short life span and the teams wield so much power over you, if you are underpaid and deserve a bigger contract, I think you should hold out and get it.

The smart teams usually take care of it before it gets to the Branch/Walker/Vasher situation. They admit the guy has outplayed their contract and try to take care of them.

The Patriots did this with Branch in a way. Their problem is that they clearly misjudged how much he was worth on the open market and valued him incorrectly to those conditions.

This is one case where the Patriots are lucky to be the Patriots. If this is the Bears, I think they have trouble signing FA's, draft picks will hold out longer for better deals, etc. after they do it for a few years. The Patriots won't have those issues to deal with at least.

[TroyF]

I am generally not inclined to give players a complete pass on their agents's decisions. Perhaps it's naive of me to believe this, but I still think it's ultimately the player who decides what to do, and the agent pursues his objectives.

If Branch didn't want to potentially be locked into a below-market deal (where a holdout was his only option) then he should have pursued a shorter deal with less money guaranteed, and made that clear to this agent. He didn't.

I don't know about Branch in specifics here, but a lot of agents have tried to sign their players to shorter term deals as rookies and the teams have simply refused to budge on the issue.

It puts the players in a horrible situation. If they hold out, especially as second round/lower picks, they have zero shot of playing early and it can impact their careers in a negative way. If they sign the deal and the team decides to do what the Bears are doing with Vasher (not offering ANY improvement on a contract), the player is screwed.

I wish the NFL PA had not only instituted a rookie cap but a set number on years each contract could be for as well. (with first rounders getting the longest possible deals and it going down from there)

[stevew]

It has now changed to where I believe top 15 or 16 picks can get a max of 6 years, other first rounders a max of 5 years, and second and lower can get up to 4 year deals.

Back when Branch was a rookie, I believe there was a 5 year max on 2nd round deals, as I remember one of the reasons quincy carter went in the 2nd round was because you could offer a 5 year deal.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

This is one case where the Patriots are lucky to be the Patriots. If this is the Bears, I think they have trouble signing FA's, draft picks will hold out longer for better deals, etc. after they do it for a few years. The Patriots won't have those issues to deal with at least.

I wonder if this is going to start to hurt the Patriots now. If I'm a FA and I see the crap they are trying to pull here with their best WR, I'm thinking twice about signing with them.

I am generally not inclined to give players a complete pass on their agents's decisions. Perhaps it's naive of me to believe this, but I still think it's ultimately the player who decides what to do, and the agent pursues his objectives.

Ultimately it is the player's decision to sign the contract or not, but the agent's job is to get the best contract possible and to look after his client. I think it's more a situation where the agent tells the player what they are going to try to do, and the player follows along.

[QuikSand]

Ultimately it is the player's decision to sign the contract or not, but the agent's job is to get the best contract possible and to look after his client. I think it's more a situation where the agent tells the player what they are going to try to do, and the player follows along.

I have little doubt that this is, indeed, how it often works. I still don't translate that to much sympathy for a player who makes a bad decision either in hiring an agent who does a bad job, or in taking an agent's advice.

[Ksyrup]

I think it's more a situation where the agent tells the player what they are going to try to do, and the player follows along.

I have absolutely no insight on this, but this has always been my belief on how 90% of these things work. It's basically the agent telling the player why a certain course of action is the best for them, and the agent executing it. Only when something goes wrong does the player possibly step in and tell the agent to back down. I suspect that's why a guy like Drew Rosenhaus or the Poston guy gets his clients, by promising to get them a deal no one else can. Other than "I want a big payday" or "I deserve more than I'm getting or more than that guy," I don't see players running the show.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

If Branch didn't want to potentially be locked into a below-market deal (where a holdout was his only option) then he should have pursued a shorter deal with less money guaranteed, and made that clear to this agent. He didn't.

Why take the risk of a shorter deal with less guaranteed, especially when you're a rookie and all it takes is one play to end your career? You have to get as much as you can, and as much of it guaranteed as you can, whenever you can.

He played under this contract for years, produced well enough to be valuable to other teams in the league, and should be paid what he's worth. If the Patriots don't want to pay him, let him go. Try to get something in return, but if not, oh well. I don't see how placing the franchise tag on him is going to work. Especially if he's as unhappy in New England as he appears to be.

[Arles]

I generally have few problems with players who hold out in football with a contract. The exceptions are guys who pull the stunt within a year or two of signing the deal. (as Terrell Owens did)
I'm beginning to come over to this camp. Since NFL deals are not guaranteed, the NFL is a different animal when it comes to contracts. A team like Seattle can sign a guy like Nate Burleson to a 7-year, $49 million deal, but have no intention of paying him more than $14 million over 4 years. So, why is that OK - but it's not OK for Branch to decide not to live up to the final season in his contract (if he has a legal option to pursue).

I guess I don't see the difference between a team that cuts/renegociates a player 5 years into a 7-year deal (cause he will be making too much) and a rookie who doesn't want to play his final season of a 5-year deal at a "rookie" rate when his performance is greatly above that.

[rkmsuf]

I'm beginning to come over to this camp. Since NFL deals are not guaranteed, the NFL is a different animal when it comes to contracts. A team like Seattle can sign a guy like Nate Burleson to a 7-year, $49 million deal, but have no intention of paying him more than $14 million over 4 years. So, why is that OK - but it's not OK for Branch to decide not to live up to the final season in his contract (if he has a legal option to pursue).

.


Because in Burelson's case it's common knowledge what the realized value of his contract is. He knows the numbers represent salary cap manipulation and without it he would receive the guranteed money he did get.

Now if Burelson was under the belief he was in line for and entitled to 49 million I may have sympathy for him. In this case I do not and don't for any other NFL player out there. They are all well aware of how the system works and even if they aren't experts have a responsibility to hire representation that are experts.

[molson]

I guess I don't see the difference between a team that cuts/renegociates a player 5 years into a 7-year deal (cause he will be making too much) and a rookie who doesn't want to play his final season of a 5-year deal at a "rookie" rate when his performance is greatly above that.

The difference is the terms of the contract. The player knows what he's agreeing to. The possibility of termination is a factor in the negotiations, and has to be considered by both sides. In the NFL, longer term contracts favor the team to a large extent. Teams in the MLB can't decide that a player is no longer with the money owed in a guaranteed contract, and withold payment. That's against the terms of the deal.

[TroyF]

The difference is the terms of the contract. The player knows what he's agreeing to. The possibility of termination is a factor in the negotiations, and has to be considered by both sides. In the NFL, longer term contracts favor the team to a large extent. Teams in the MLB can't decide that a player is no longer with the money owed in a guaranteed contract, and withold payment. That's against the terms of the deal.


To me it doesn't matter, especially with rookies who outperfrom their deals. If Branch had been a flameout, his team wouldn't have hesitated giving him the axe. Branch is outperforming is contract in a big way. He has maybe 2 chances in his career to sign a big deal. Possibly only one chance.

If this money were all gaurenteed, I'd have a much different opinion. Suck it up, you signed, it, deal with it. But when the team has the ability to chop you and not give you a dime of your slated salary for the year, I think you have every right to say that you've outplayed your deal and they need to reup you.

[rkmsuf]

To me it doesn't matter, especially with rookies who outperfrom their deals. If Branch had been a flameout, his team wouldn't have hesitated giving him the axe. Branch is outperforming is contract in a big way. He has maybe 2 chances in his career to sign a big deal. Possibly only one chance.

If this money were all gaurenteed, I'd have a much different opinion. Suck it up, you signed, it, deal with it. But when the team has the ability to chop you and not give you a dime of your slated salary for the year, I think you have every right to say that you've outplayed your deal and they need to reup you.

They tried to reup him but apprantly it was a veiled attempt to screw him and create this chaos now.

[Arles]

The difference is the terms of the contract. The player knows what he's agreeing to. The possibility of termination is a factor in the negotiations, and has to be considered by both sides.
Per the CBA, teams also know there are methods a player can legally hold out and report later in the season. So, you can make the same argument from the player holdout end.

In the NFL, longer term contracts favor the team to a large extent. Teams in the MLB can't decide that a player is no longer with the money owed in a guaranteed contract, and withold payment. That's against the terms of the deal.
Yeah, but this isn't MLB. A player in the NFL knows going in that the bonus/guaranteed money is the only money they can count on. Each player knows they can be let go at any time (as long as the team can afford the bonus acceleration). On the flip side, the team knows any player can hold out in camp (and pay penalties) and decide not to report until week 10 (and still acrue that year).

These are both valid actions by both parties so I don't see how people can be OK with one (ie, an overpaid player getting cut) but not OK with the other (ie, an underpaid player holding out for more).

[molson]

If this money were all gaurenteed, I'd have a much different opinion. Suck it up, you signed, it, deal with it. But when the team has the ability to chop you and not give you a dime of your slated salary for the year, I think you have every right to say that you've outplayed your deal and they need to reup you.

But if the contract has a provision that allowed Branch to rip up the deal and renegotiate if he outperformed the original terms, that that's a "value" for Branch, and the Patriots would presumably have demanded a "value" in return (i.e., smaller bonus, etc).

I understand what you're saying in terms of general fairness, I just have a problem with any party to any contract essentially implying terms that weren't negotiated.

[molson]

Per the CBA, teams also know there are methods a player can legally hold out and report later in the season. So, you can make the same argument from the player holdout end.



OK, I didn't know too much about the CBA holdout provisions, so in that case, I suppose Branch's actions are indeed a legally implied part of his patriots contract.

[TroyF]

They tried to reup him but apprantly it was a veiled attempt to screw him and create this chaos now.

They tried to reup him at less than his market value. (something he just recently proved when he called the Pats bluff)

Clinton Portis wanted the same thing. Denver realized early in the offseason that he wasn't going to budge and they weren't going to make him the top paid RB in football. They dealt him.

Granted, they got a great deal, but so could the Patriots if they'd have been smarter earlier in the offseason.

[BrianD]

With the offers that were made to Branch, did the teams also make reasonable trade offers for him? It seems like if teams really wanted to screw with the Pats, they could offer Branch a great salary and then offer the Pats a terrible trade deal. The Pats wouldn't be able to take the deal, but Branch would now think he was worth more and would hold out.

[rkmsuf]

They tried to reup him at less than his market value. (something he just recently proved when he called the Pats bluff)

Clinton Portis wanted the same thing. Denver realized early in the offseason that he wasn't going to budge and they weren't going to make him the top paid RB in football. They dealt him.

Granted, they got a great deal, but so could the Patriots if they'd have been smarter earlier in the offseason.

Well his fair market value is now zero. Good work by the Branch camp. Hopefully they come up with this great deal next year to recoup his fines and lost game checks should he choose to hold out.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm beginning to come over to this camp. Since NFL deals are not guaranteed, the NFL is a different animal when it comes to contracts. A team like Seattle can sign a guy like Nate Burleson to a 7-year, $49 million deal, but have no intention of paying him more than $14 million over 4 years. So, why is that OK - but it's not OK for Branch to decide not to live up to the final season in his contract (if he has a legal option to pursue).

I guess I don't see the difference between a team that cuts/renegociates a player 5 years into a 7-year deal (cause he will be making too much) and a rookie who doesn't want to play his final season of a 5-year deal at a "rookie" rate when his performance is greatly above that.

I'm in the same boat. I generally don't have as much tolerance for holdouts in other leagues because the money is guarenteed. In the NFL, since much of the contract is not guarenteed, I feel a different way about players holding out. It is all good and well to say "You signed it, now uphold your contract", but when it is built into the system for teams to decide, whenever they want, to not uphold the contract, why shouldn't the players get the same right?

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Well his fair market value is now zero. Good work by the Branch camp. Hopefully they come up with this great deal next year to recoup his fines and lost game checks should he choose to hold out.

??? How is his value zero? The Jets and Seahawks (if the reports are to be believed) seem to value him. What should he do? Play this year, hope he doesn't get injured, and then leave?

Since when does holding out lower your value? The only thing that will lower his value is poor performance, injury, or piss poor attitude.

And I'm sure Branch's next contract will leave him with enough money to cover his fines and missed checks, as well as put food in his family's mouths (and Latrell Sprewell's, too).

[rkmsuf]

??? How is his value zero? The Jets and Seahawks (if the reports are to be believed) seem to value him. What should he do? Play this year, hope he doesn't get injured, and then leave?




Show me his market for the next 6 months.

Then once he's tagged show me his market for the next 6 months.

Look at his previous offers and look at the Jets and Seahawk offers. You tell me if it's worth it.

Beyond that the Pats don't want guys like this to begin with so those arguing precedent and free agent taboo have it all wrong. NE will never sign the young guy making his first big deal on the market.

[TroyF]

Well his fair market value is now zero. Good work by the Branch camp. Hopefully they come up with this great deal next year to recoup his fines and lost game checks should he choose to hold out.


This was already responded to below, but your statement has problems on multiple levels:

1) His VALUE is right at the Reggie Wayne level, the level he stated he wanted all along. That's what the Seahawks are willing to pay him. NE is choosing not to pay him his value, so he's withholding his services. NE believes they are right and the Jets/Seahawks are wrong. Their choice. But Branch has a market valueof more than they are willing to pay.

2) This stopped being about money when NE botched this thing and let Branch test the market. At that point it became a respect issue. It changed it from business to personal. At this point, Branch is probably bothered very little by the loss of money this year. Yeah, 1.5 is a killer number for most of us. But Branch will likely get in the area of 13-15 million in signing bonuses next year. He's not going hungry and the situation will be resolved one way or another. Branch isn't especially worried about that 1.5 million now.

He comes back and blows his knee out in week three, it's something that has the potential of costing him millions of dollars, not just 1.5. He's sticking to his guns.

[rkmsuf]

This was already responded to below, but your statement has problems on multiple levels:

1) His VALUE is right at the Reggie Wayne level, the level he stated he wanted all along. That's what the Seahawks are willing to pay him. NE is choosing not to pay him his value, so he's withholding his services. NE believes they are right and the Jets/Seahawks are wrong. Their choice. But Branch has a market valueof more than they are willing to pay.

2) This stopped being about money when NE botched this thing and let Branch test the market. At that point it became a respect issue. It changed it from business to personal. At this point, Branch is probably bothered very little by the loss of money this year. Yeah, 1.5 is a killer number for most of us. But Branch will likely get in the area of 13-15 million in signing bonuses next year. He's not going hungry and the situation will be resolved one way or another. Branch isn't especially worried about that 1.5 million now.

He comes back and blows his knee out in week three, it's something that has the potential of costing him millions of dollars, not just 1.5. He's sticking to his guns.

That's all well and good. He better hope NE doesn't consider this a respect issue as well.

edit....you think he's getting 13-15 million in a signing bonus? This thread is over then.

[molson]

edit....you think he's getting 13-15 million in a signing bonus? This thread is over then.

It's funny, this whole ordeal sure has seemed to enhance his value in the eyes of fans and the media. Before, he was a pretty good WR on a team that didn't feature that position. He's never had more than 1,000 yards or 5 TDs. Suddenly he's a superstar.

[TroyF]

That's all well and good. He better hope NE doesn't consider this a respect issue as well.

edit....you think he's getting 13-15 million in a signing bonus? This thread is over then.

Wayne got something like 13.5.

The contract offer from Seattle seems nearly identical to the one Wayne got. A million off here or there. I believe the Patriots first offer, the one that Branch rejected, contained 11 million in bonuses. I guess I fail to see where 13-15 is that far off.

[molson]

I'd say that the odds are decent that Gabriel's 2006 will outperform Branch's 2005. That's how the Pats will win in the end.

[TroyF]

I'd say that the odds are decent that Gabriel's 2006 will outperform Branch's 2005. That's how the Pats will win in the end.

I'd take you up on that bet. I think Gabriel will be lucky to catch 60 passes this year. He's going from a #3 WR to a #1 WR. If you think Branch is going to have trouble moving froma 2 to a 1, wait til you see Gabriel be forced to adjust.

(note: As said above in this thread, I LIKE Gabriel and think he can play)

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Again, you overstate how powerful the Patriots are in this. if Branch were to sign the franchise tender, it would damned well impact the team that trades for him. They can sign him to an EXTENSION, but the one year cost would still be at one of the top 3 to 5 highest paid players for next season. The key word there is Branch SIGNS the tender. That puts him under contract for next year. The renegotiation would be for future years in the deal.


I guess I am confused and willing to admit it. Are you sure this is how it works? I've always thought that if a player signs the tender you can still trade him (and essentially the tender contract gets ripped up and replaced by the new multi-year deal with the new team OR you renegotiate and then trade). You're saying you can still trade him, but the one year guarantee salary remains somehow? Hmmm, does anyone have concrete authority on this. If I am wrong, then I see franchising him next season not as desirable unless the Pats actually have extra room for it.

[TroyF]

I guess I am confused and willing to admit it. Are you sure this is how it works? I've always thought that if a player signs the tender you can still trade him (and essentially the tender contract gets ripped up and replaced by the new multi-year deal with the new team OR you renegotiate and then trade). You're saying you can still trade him, but the one year guarantee salary remains somehow? Hmmm, does anyone have concrete authority on this. If I am wrong, then I see franchising him next season not as desirable unless the Pats actually have extra room for it.

I could be wrong, but I thought when the player signed the deal, that was that, trade or no trade. If he was franchised, but didn't sign the tender, you could do whatever you wanted with him. (including the team pulling the franchise tag off which has happened before)

But if the guy accepts the deal and signs it, I thought that locked him in under those terms. Cap hit and all.

[TroyF]

DOLA here. . . please don't assume I think Branch would sign the deal. I think he now wants out of NE and will do whatever it takes to make that happen. I don't even think it's about straight up money anymore.

It's just a tool he could use and one that could hurt the Patriots if Branch decided to jump on the offer.

I think the end result will be the Patriots getting a second rounder out of him. . . this year or next. I think Branch will get his Reggie Wayne money or right near it. I think Branch will play at a very high level for another three or four seasons at least, with a couple of pro bowl trips mixed in. At this point maybe the Patriots should just hold onto him and wait until he comes back in week 11 to pick up his service time.

Something that hasn't been talked about a lot in this thread. . . Obviously, the Patriots can't afford to lose Brady. We all get that. But is their second most important person on the team now Ben Watson? I could see an injury to Ben simply destroying that offense now. I'm just not sure how they'd move the ball with any consistency.

I remember saying two years ago how the Kansas City offense was terrific, but could really struggle badly against certain defenses. Any D with a cover LB who could contain Tony G and a front four who could contain the running game (not stop either, I think that was impossible, but just contain), could really grind that offense to a halt. Tom Brady is better than Trent Green (I know, I'm going out on a limb there), but his WR still have to get some seperation for there to be any type of a passing game.

The Broncos play the Patriots in week 3 I think. I'm honestly wondering how they'll use Champ Bailey in that game. I could easily see a scenario where he's shadowing Watson on critical third down plays.

[jeff061]

1) His VALUE is right at the Reggie Wayne level, the level he stated he wanted all along. That's what the Seahawks are willing to pay him.

This drives me nuts, I understand the concept and arguments behind "market value". However, bottom line is a players value is different for every team, I'm assuming this is an obvious statement. If it wasn't he would have had a couple dozen offers, or the Browns would not have overpaid for McGinest(they valued his leadership more than others).

The Patriots put a max value on him and offered it. He wouldn't sign. They let him seek what he could get on the market because things could only get better. Are they worse now? I don't think so. If he was going to sign at what the Patriots valued him he would have by now. And with or without that stunt he would have been fuming if he was tagged next year.

So where would they have been if they never let Branch seek out a trade? In the same damn place and with no negotiations/trade talks going on. Perhaps the only downside I see is a negative perception held by potential free agent signees next year.

[jeff061]

I hold no hard feelings and have no problem with Branch, by the way. Just that last year is the best year he'll have with the Pats offense, not worth the cash.

[TroyF]

This drives me nuts, I understand the concept and arguments behind "market value". However, bottom line is a players value is different for every team, I'm assuming this is an obvious statement. If it wasn't he would have had a couple dozen offers, or the Browns would not have overpaid for McGinest(they valued his leadership more than others).

The Patriots put a max value on him and offered it. He wouldn't sign. They let him seek what he could get on the market because things could only get better. Are they worse now? I don't think so. If he was going to sign at what the Patriots valued him he would have by now. And with or without that stunt he would have been fuming if he was tagged next year.

So where would they have been if they never let Branch seek out a trade? In the same damn place and with no negotiations/trade talks going on. Perhaps the only downside I see is a negative perception held by potential free agent signees next year.


No, they'd be right where QS thought they'd end up before this. Where Javon Walker was last year. He'd realize he was in a no win and would simply try to play out the contract and see what happened. Before it turned personal, Branch would have almost 100% caved in. No other teams, no other prayer, no true indicator of his market value other than a feeling. . . he'd have been screwed.

By letting him test the market, it turned nasty. Pretty much every insider I've read has made this indication and I see zero reason to doubt it.

As for your opinion about Branch, we difer greatly. I think he'd have put up over 1200 yards in that offense this year. Easily.

[jeff061]

Ignoring the spread the wealth nature of Brady and the offensive scheme(for the sake of argument), Belichick has been trying to make it more TE oriented for 2-3 years now. They didn't stumble onto Watson and Graham, a pair of 1st round TEs, they have had a plan for them.

We'll also see how the running game fairs this year. Dillon doesn't have his injury excuse and doesn't look much better than last year. But Maroney has looked great.

I'm just not sure how anyone could see Branch, or just about anyone, putting 90/1200 numbers with the Pats. Last year was also a rare healthy year for him.

[TazFTW]

Being reported on ESPN that Branch has been traded to Seattle for a 2007 1st rounder.

[Swaggs]

Is it too soon to declare Branch/Seattle the winners over New Englad?

I like Bill Simmons' take on the Branch situation. He thinks it is Bill Belichek's "I'm Keith Hernandez" moment.

[molson]

Is it too soon to declare Branch/Seattle the winners over New Englad?



I think everybody wins.

As a Pats fan, I would rather see that money used elsewhere. And I didn't expect to get a first rounder for him.

[Travis]

Just heard about the apparent confirmation of this trade, and I'll admit, as a Seahawks fan, I'm lost on this one. We just got Burleson, are very high on D.J. Hackett developing into a field stretcher, still have a reliable third down type receiver in Engram, not to mention a guy who is a top 15 receiver in the league when healthy.

Even if Jackson goes down, we could field Burleson/Engram/Hackett which I think most Seahawk fans could live with, and while I know Holmgren loves the 3 WR sets, I can't help but feel (hope) that this is a precursor to another move.

[SirFozzie]

The outcome for this trade depends a lot on how Gabriel turns out.

[rkmsuf]

Just heard about the apparent confirmation of this trade, and I'll admit, as a Seahawks fan, I'm lost on this one. We just got Burleson, are very high on D.J. Hackett developing into a field stretcher, still have a reliable third down type receiver in Engram, not to mention a guy who is a top 15 receiver in the league when healthy.

Even if Jackson goes down, we could field Burleson/Engram/Hackett which I think most Seahawk fans could live with, and while I know Holmgren loves the 3 WR sets, I can't help but feel (hope) that this is a precursor to another move.


Seattle caught whatever the Lions organization has.

[rkmsuf]

The outcome for this trade depends a lot on how Gabriel turns out.

No it doesn't. That's totally irrelevant.

[Swaggs]

What was the price tag for Gabriel?

I thought it was like a 4th, which seems to be a good value regardless. Gabriel and Branch could have been a strong tandem.

[Ksyrup]

Seattle caught whatever the Lions organization has.

And they can catch Charles Rogers now, too.

[molson]

No it doesn't. That's totally irrelevant.

Why? He's the replacement. If Gabriel performs well, then it was a good move to get him instead of overpaying Branch.

[WSUCougar]

Just heard about the apparent confirmation of this trade, and I'll admit, as a Seahawks fan, I'm lost on this one. We just got Burleson, are very high on D.J. Hackett developing into a field stretcher, still have a reliable third down type receiver in Engram, not to mention a guy who is a top 15 receiver in the league when healthy.

Even if Jackson goes down, we could field Burleson/Engram/Hackett which I think most Seahawk fans could live with, and while I know Holmgren loves the 3 WR sets, I can't help but feel (hope) that this is a precursor to another move.
Travis, from what I've heard Burleson has struggled to get a grip on the offense, and is not as well-suited to the West Coast style. Engram is a 3rd down guy as you mention, Hackett is an up-and-comer, and Jackson is frankly too fragile to depend upon. He's great when he's healthy, but this is a Super Bowl-caliber team, and they've made a decent position group much stronger with the move. I like it.

[rkmsuf]

Why? He's the replacement. If Gabriel performs well, then it was a good move to get him instead of overpaying Branch.

The two events aren't mutally exclusive.

Further, nobody ever said Gabriel would be "Branch" now. It's way more complex than that. Gabriel could cut tomorrow and it's still a good deal to get a first round pick for Branch.

Gabriel is likely to only catch 40 balls this year. Doesn't mean his aquistion was a bad move or overpaying Branch was a good move. This isn't baseball.