Trent Green hit ruled legal by NFL

[kcchief19]

In light of this, I'm reversing my position on the NFL's rules regarding hitting the quarterback. They are clearly completely arbitrary and unevenly applied.

From now on, sorry as it is to say, I will be rooting for quarterbacks to get plugged and plugged hard. It is absolutely ridiculous that a vicious hit like Geathers' on Green is completely legal, yet the hit on Hasselbeck was not legal. Why have rules regarding protecting the quarterback if they are going to be applied in such a reckless manner?

I think the rule is smart -- the league and the teams have too much money tied up in these quarterbacks, and that investment should be protected. But the notion that one team's season can be completely effected by a brutal hit that is not discouraged undermines those rules completely.

I'm done with it. From now on, I won't hold my breath with a quarterback gets drilled. I'll just cross my fingers and hope it's not my guy, but until the NFL pulls its head out of its ass and enforces a rule that makes sense, I'm done with the rule. If I were a defensive coordinator, I'd be telling my guys to cheapshot the other team's QB all night long. There's a 50/50 chance you won't get caught, and isn't winning the only thing that matters?

Call me a homer because it's my team. I am a homer, and I am ticked that it happened to my team. Going forward, I'm going to be ticked when it happens to another team. I'm just coming around to what some of you have being saying for a while.

[TroyF]

What did you disagree with in the decision? The NFL stated Geathers was pushed and actually turned his torso to avoid a helmut to helmut hit with Green. Some of the people who watched the play on the day it happened were saying the same things. (look in the NFL week 1 thread)

They also specifically mentioned the hit on Hasselback and why it was treated dfifferently.

I suppose you disagree with all of those issues, but it looks to me like the NFL reviewed them carefully and came to conclusions you feel are wrong. I don't think anything in the decision indicates to me that there is some conspiracy against the Chiefs or the they don't plan on protecting QB's in the future.

[Logan]

Bitter much?

[panerd]

Hey, us Bengal fans felt the same way about the Palmer hit. Deal with it, it is part of the game. After 7 months of reflection I realize it wasn't intentional or that blatent a hit. The same is true about the Green hit. Eventually you will see that when you take off your red and gold glasses.

[Greyroofoo]

I'm not a bengals fan but I believe the hit on Palmer was blatant

[Pumpy Tudors]

I've never seen anything in the rules about a shoulder hit to the chest being illegal.

[Joe]

cowboy up

[WVUFAN]

Even some of Green's own teammates are saying it was a legal hit. Bad things just happen sometimes.

[molson]

I've never seen anything in the rules about a shoulder hit to the chest being illegal.

Well, such hit would certainly be illegal if intentionally made on a sliding QB.

But here, I guess the issue is that he was pushed. I'm sure they were able to get it right, but I'm still surprised we didn't see the typical NFL QB over-protection.

[wade moore]

kccheif, you are really not being objective about this. As was stated by the NFL and many in this thread, he was pushed right as Green slid and did everything he could to avoid it.

[rowech]

As I've said to others...you can't change the laws of physics. A guy leaving his feet at the same time a slide starts has nothing he can do. In addition, the hit itself is not at all what hurt Green....his head to the turf was. Geathers gave only a shoulder to a chest...granted not great but certainly better than many other hits I've seen.

It does crack me up the idea of governing these guys though. They're 300 pounds and taught to basically kill in what amounts to a war.

[miked]

If you're going to get out of the pocket, you should be treated like every other RB and WR. If it were a hit on Alexander, nobody would be crying. Play with the bull, get the horns.

[Havok]

Hey, it could be worse. You could be a Redskins fan and watched the refs give Sean Taylor a 15 yard penalty for hitting a receiver clean with his shoulder.

Can you say...... "Penatly by reputation"?

[Radii]

What did you disagree with in the decision? The NFL stated Geathers was pushed and actually turned his torso to avoid a helmut to helmut hit with Green. Some of the people who watched the play on the day it happened were saying the same things. (look in the NFL week 1 thread)


I talked to two good friends of mine who are giant Chiefs fans and they both were saying that this was their opinion on what happened after seeing the replays.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

When I first saw the play, I was surprised there wasn't a penalty, just because the officials usually go over the top to protect quarterbacks. Watching the replays, I'm still surprised there wasn't a flag, but I have no problem with the league not doing anything about it.

I like miked's idea. I hate watching quarterbacks run in the open field, slide a split second before they get hit, and then having the defense get called for a personal foul. If you don't want to get hit, run out of bounds or take a knee.

[kingnebwsu]

(I'm a Bengals fan)

A penalty on the play would have been fine with me, but a fine/suspension would have been ridiculous. A combination of several bad things led to this happening and hopefully Green can recover soon (since he's on my fantasy team ;))

[RendeR]

I'm jsut glad to see the NFL clearing geather's good name on this issue. He's a good kid who hasn't shown a malicious side at all since coming to the Bengals.

[Maple Leafs]

I don't care about the Bengals one way or another, but I thought the Palmerplay was way worse than Green.

[Draft Dodger]

Hey, it could be worse. You could be a Redskins fan and watched the refs give Sean Taylor a 15 yard penalty for hitting a receiver clean with his shoulder.

Can you say...... "Penatly by reputation"?

well, just being a Redskin fan would be worse.

[JPhillips]

With your tackles does it really matter if Trent Green or Damon Huard is standing in the firing line?

[Toddzilla]

It is fucking football for chrissakes. Players get hit. Hard. If you can't take it, watch baseball.

[Oilers9911]

It is fucking football for chrissakes. Players get hit. Hard. If you can't take it, watch baseball.

Any discussion of a football injury will contain at least one comment like this.

[Samdari]

I read a great article in a KC paper this morning basically saying "this is what the Chiefs get for having Eddie Kennison on their team." I love it.

I am conflicted about this hit.

On the one hand, I hate the QB can't be hit while sliding feet first rule. I especially hate QBs pushing the bounds of this, sliding way late, leaving the defense with no mechanism with which to stop a ballcarrier from reaching the first down marker. Green clearly slid late trying to reach the first down marker by sliding feet first past it, so as a football fan, I want Geathers to be allowed to try to stop him.

On the other hand, the practical application of that rule has been to allow QBs to start their slide milliseconds before contact, advance the ball up to three yards while sliding, and basically be allowed to reach a first down marker with no resistance from the defense. While I see nothing wrong with the hit (and certainly Kennison blocking Geathers' from behind gives the NFL an out) I think we have all seen QBs slide later than Green get called, we have all seen seemingly legal looking hits on QBs get called for simply being above or below the waist or just being more than rough touch.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I read a great article in a KC paper this morning basically saying "this is what the Chiefs get for having Eddie Kennison on their team." I love it.

As a Broncos fan, I'm terribly amused by that line. :)

[Maple Leafs]

On the other hand, the practical application of that rule has been to allow QBs to start their slide milliseconds before contact, advance the ball up to three yards while sliding, and basically be allowed to reach a first down marker with no resistance from the defense.
I thought the QB was ruled down when he starts his slide.

[TroyF]

As a Broncos fan, I'm terribly amused by that line. :)

"

[kcchief19]

What did you disagree with in the decision? The NFL stated Geathers was pushed and actually turned his torso to avoid a helmut to helmut hit with Green. Some of the people who watched the play on the day it happened were saying the same things. (look in the NFL week 1 thread)

They also specifically mentioned the hit on Hasselback and why it was treated dfifferently.

I suppose you disagree with all of those issues, but it looks to me like the NFL reviewed them carefully and came to conclusions you feel are wrong. I don't think anything in the decision indicates to me that there is some conspiracy against the Chiefs or the they don't plan on protecting QB's in the future.
I don't think there is any conspiracy against the Chiefs -- I'm not one of those nuts. :)

First, the "push" from Eddie Kennison was pushing Geathers AWAY from Trent Green, so Geathers should have in theory not drilled him directly -- if the push had an effect on Geathers, he should have missed Green entirely or delivered a more glancing blow.

Second, if Geathers was able to "twist" away from a helmet-to-helmet hit, why wasn't he able to avoid the hit completely? Easy -- if you look at the reply, he wasn't twisting to avoid a helmet-to-helmet hit, he was twisting so he wouldn't miss Green. He did everything he could to hit the quarterback as hard as he could and made no effort to avoid or minimize the impact.

Third, I think way too much credit is being given to Geathers for for avoiding a helmet-to-helmet impact. Smart football players will always avoid a helmet-to-helmet impact if at all possible because (1) it's illegal and will absolutely draw a flag; and (2) there is almost as good of a chance of you getting hurt as hurting the guy you are hitting -- hence the advice of "see what you're hitting." He drove his shoulder into the chest of a quarterback who had given himself up.

Fourth, the argument has been made that they left their feet at the same time and Geathers didn't "have time" to avoid hitting Green. Yet the argument has been made that Geathers "twisted" to avoid helmet-to-helmet contact. Those two claims cannot both be true. If he had time to "twist," he certainly had time to avoid contact or minimize the impact of contact. Did he attempt to twist away from Green to avoid the hit? No. Did he attempt to brace himself to avoid landing on Green with his full weight? No. He made what most of us would see is a terrific football play -- unless it's against a quarterback who has given himself up and according to rule is entitled to protection.

In other instances this contact might be illegal, since a defensive player has the responsibility to avoid unnecessary contact even when he is blocked by an opponent. However, in this case, the late slide and the block in the back were mitigating factors.
This is from the NFL's statement about the hit and clarification of the slide rule. The "block in the back" triggered a red flag with me, since if it was a block in the back, the would be a penalty. Was Eddie Kennison flagged for clipping? No. Has the NFL issued a statement indicating that Eddie Kennison committed clipping and should have been flagged? No. Why? Because the block wasn't from the back -- it was from the side. As I said, the block from the side should have helped Geathers miss Green -- instead, he delivered a direct hit. Once again, the claims being made are not in agreement with one another.

The NFL's statement essential says the different between the Green and the Hasselbeck plays was the defensive player leading with the helmet. So apparently the NFL rule is you can hit a quarterback who slides so long as you don't hit him with your helmet.

If there is a conspiracy -- and I don't really think there is -- I think it would be that the NFL doesn't have the stomach to punish a Bengal for a hit on a quarterback when no penalty was handed down for the hit on Palmer in the playoffs. Personally, I think both cases are separate and different acts and should have been judged differently. I'm not completely sure that happened.

[TroyF]

Guess we'll just agree to disagree. I've watched the play in slo mo and seen different angles and everyone of them makes me think the NFL got it right. I've heard only a handful of people make the case you've made on it and heard a ton (including Chiefs players) say otherwise.

I think they got this one right.

[miked]

Jeebus man, it's football. QBs are taking advantage of this crap as has been outlined in previous posts. I (like the NFL and just about every non-Chiefs fan) don't think it was a malicious intention but a combination of many factors. QBs leave the pocket, they are fair game. If they get flushed and leave the tackle box, they are allowed to ground the ball, so why do we need to protect them when they make themselves running backs. If you're supposed to pull up and not hit, it's only a matter of time until QBs start faking slides to deke the defense and then grab a few more before sliding like a pussy.

[wade moore]

This is from the NFL's statement about the hit and clarification of the slide rule. The "block in the back" triggered a red flag with me, since if it was a block in the back, the would be a penalty. Was Eddie Kennison flagged for clipping? No. Has the NFL issued a statement indicating that Eddie Kennison committed clipping and should have been flagged? No. Why? Because the block wasn't from the back -- it was from the side. As I said, the block from the side should have helped Geathers miss Green -- instead, he delivered a direct hit. Once again, the claims being made are not in agreement with one another.


Now wait a minute.

Don't take this the wrong way, because I think you always put good, thought out statements here on FOFC and I enjoy reading your posts.

But this is so hypocritical it's not even funny.

So. The NFL Says Kennison blocked in the bock. However, you say because it was not flagged, that it didn't happen.

The NFL Says that Geathers made an illegal hit. However, you say despite the gact that it was nto falgged, it did happen.


Talk about claims that do not agree with one another.

[Blade6119]

Having Eddie Kinnison on the field at all was the chiefs first mistake.

[Julio Riddols]

lets not get too into the gacts here. I don't care if it was falgged or nto.

:)

[Samdari]

I thought the QB was ruled down when he starts his slide.

That's what the rule says, but I have seen NFL officials award a full 3 yards of slide.

I also have seen QBs start sliding after a defender has started his tackling motion, and the defender get flagged.

Both are contrary to the way the rule is written.

[Desnudo]

The first time I saw it, it seemed like a fair play. No way to avoid it.

[Butter]

I've never seen someone so freaked out by a legal hit. Just calm down man, and realize that sometimes bad things happen to good people, and let it go. Those 6 paragraphs are WAY more thought than this situation warrants. Palmer got taken out at the knees on a totally questionable hit in a winnable playoff game, but guess what. Those things happen. I was upset that he got hurt, but I didn't go around to all my Bengal friends crying about it for weeks. It happened. It sucks. Move on.

OR, if you'd rather:

Just for the conspiracy's sake, after the push Geathers should've gone back and to the left... Back, and to the left.

[tarcone]

Damn, the Chiefs just went from an 8-8 team to a 6-10 team because of a legal hit on their average QB. watch the Chiefs fans cry....I LOVE IT

[wade moore]

Damn, the Chiefs just went from an 8-8 team to a 6-10 team because of a legal hit on their average QB. watch the Chiefs fans cry....I LOVE IT

With his stats over his career, can you really call Green an average QB?

[Eaglesfan27]

With his stats over his career, can you really call Green an average QB?

Most underrated QB in the NFL over the last few years.

[wade moore]

Most underrated QB in the NFL over the last few years.

Agreed.

And I have a special liking for the guy because I recognized talent him him when he was the 3rd stringer in Washington and I wanted him to start.

[kingnebwsu]

I hope Green comes back and kicks mucho ass since he's my top fantasy league QB ;)

[Blade6119]

Agreed.

And I have a special liking for the guy because I recognized talent him him when he was the 3rd stringer in Washington and I wanted him to start.

Most Underrated or most injury prone?

[RendeR]

Most Underrated or most injury prone?


Injury prone? I recall one knee injury due to shitty turf in St. Louis and this concussion...what other times has he missed games?

Green is a VERY underrated QB, he's accurate as hell and takes care of the football. He's every coaches wet dream of a "manage the game and take a few shots downfield" quarterback.

[Eaglesfan27]

He's even more than a manage the game guy. The guy was a leading yardage guy and highly efficient the last 5 years:

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2001</TD><TD align=left>Kansas City Chiefs</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>523</TD><TD>296</TD><TD>56.6</TD><TD>3783</TD><TD>7.23</TD><TD>67</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>39/198</TD><TD>51</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>71.1</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2002</TD><TD align=left>Kansas City Chiefs</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>470</TD><TD>287</TD><TD>61.1</TD><TD>3690</TD><TD>7.85</TD><TD>99</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>26/141</TD><TD>46</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>92.6</TD></TR><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2003</TD><TD align=left>Kansas City Chiefs</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>523</TD><TD>330</TD><TD>63.1</TD><TD>4039</TD><TD>7.72</TD><TD>67</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>20/130</TD><TD>54</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>92.6</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2004</TD><TD align=left>Kansas City Chiefs</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>556</TD><TD>369</TD><TD>66.4</TD><TD>4591</TD><TD>8.26</TD><TD>70</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>32/227</TD><TD>59</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>95.2</TD></TR><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD align=left>Kansas City Chiefs</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>507</TD><TD>317</TD><TD>62.5</TD><TD>4014</TD><TD>7.92</TD><TD>60</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>32/204</TD><TD>51</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>90.1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>



You'll notice he started every game each of those years and had started about 82 or 83 straight games. The guy certainly isn't injury prone, and he is highly prolific. I don't think he gets enough credit because he had Priest Holmes and then Larry Johnson for a few of those years and he is viewed as a product of the system. However, would Joe Montana or any other great QB have done as well without great talent around them? Green has been top 5 or top 10 in QB rtg almost ever year for the last 5 years.

Yet, some people still view him as an "average QB."

[wade moore]

Most Underrated or most injury prone?

Where do you people get this crap from?

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1599

Trent Green did not miss a SINGLE game in the last 5 seasons with the Chiefs.

He started with Washington, and in 1998 only had 15 starts, but that's because he wasn't the starter at the beginning of the season.

He had a season ender in 1999 for St. Louis, then was the backup to Kurt Warner in 2000.

He came to the Chiefs in 2001 and HASN'T MISSED A GAME in 5 seasons. This weekend will be the first game he's ever missed in his 5+ seasons with Kansas City.

Freakin' check your facts.

Oh, and while you're there, you can see that every season he started 14+ games he has 3000 yards and has had a 90+ QB Rating and at least 15 TD's in the last 4 years. All of that with a mediocre WR corps.

[wade moore]

Hah, nice Eaglesfan27...

[rowech]

People view him as average because of his age. He took a while to get things going. I do agree he is an above average QB though. Just took his time in getting there so he flies under the radar.

[Blade6119]

Where do you people get this crap from?

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1599

Trent Green did not miss a SINGLE game in the last 5 seasons with the Chiefs.

He started with Washington, and in 1998 only had 15 starts, but that's because he wasn't the starter at the beginning of the season.

He had a season ender in 1999 for St. Louis, then was the backup to Kurt Warner in 2000.

He came to the Chiefs in 2001 and HASN'T MISSED A GAME in 5 seasons. This weekend will be the first game he's ever missed in his 5+ seasons with Kansas City.

Freakin' check your facts.

Oh, and while you're there, you can see that every season he started 14+ games he has 3000 yards and has had a 90+ QB Rating and at least 15 TD's in the last 4 years. All of that with a mediocre WR corps.

You people do not take jokes well...im suprised you didnt present some defense on kennison when i cracked on him too...wow, relax.

[wade moore]

You people do not take jokes well...im suprised you didnt present some defense on kennison when i cracked on him too...wow, relax.

There was absolutely nothing in your statement to indicate that it was a joke.

[Blade6119]

There was absolutely nothing in your statement to indicate that it was a joke.

Im born and raised in st. louis, im still bitter about him going down in 99. Sorry if you can detect my jokes, ill point them out for the humor impaired next time

[duckman]

So you're saying the injury to his knee is his fault?

[dime]

it was a clean hit.

people need to understand that just football is a violent game, and that there will be occassions when a player is defenseless and gets hit and/or injured badly. that doesn't mean that a rule was breached or anything "dirty" occurred. it's football.

[dime]

btw, if you were a chiefs fan during the latter years of the schottenheimer and cunningham era you really have no business griping about any kind of controversial hit or defense.

the chief defenses in the late 90s were just glorified thugs on defense who had no shame about hitting guys out of bounds, after the play, etc etc. it was part of their gameplan.

[TargetPractice6]

Im born and raised in st. louis, im still bitter about him going down in 99. Sorry if you can detect my jokes, ill point them out for the humor impaired next timeOr maybe actually include humor in your jokes? Hmm?

[PilotMan]

I think that this was an instance where he wouldn't have been injured if he wouldn't have slid on the play. The injury came from hitting his head. If he had just taken the hit in the first place he probably would have stayed in the game. I am surprised that nobody else has thought of this. Typically the slide should protect the QB, but when he doesn't do it right, it ends up making the situation worse.

[EagleFan]

helmut to helmut hit

He was going to sandwich Green between two German guys?

[larrymcg421]

The one good thing out of all of this is that Damon Huard will finally get some snaps again. This is a guy with a 5-1 career record as a starter. I liked watching him with the Dolphins and thought he had alot of upside, but has been stuck in bad situations wherever he has gone since the Fins idiotically went with Jay Fiedler as the starter.