WW XXXV ( night phase ends friday 9:00 AM,) SAW!!!!

[Lathum]

Taking signups for a new WW game. I'm not sure what the number should be. The theme of the game is the movie SAW but you don't need knowledge of the movie to play. Since this is my first game I want to keep it small. Game wil start when 12 people have signed up. Rules and roles to follow.

1. sndvls- murdered night one-retired detective
2. lonestargirl
3. izulde- murdered night 2- prisoner
4. Saldana- killed day 3-prisoner, booby trap victim
5. Neuqua
6. oliegirl- killed night 3-prisoner
7. swaggs
8. tyrith- lynched day 2-prisoner
9 dodgerchick
10. blade
11. grammaticus
12. St. Cronin-lynched day3-prisoner

[Lathum]

You wake up and immediately turn over and vomit, your head is splitting and there is blood caked to the back of your neck. Disorientation starts to take over as you try to remember how you got here. The last thing you recall is someone coming up behind you. You sit up and look around at your surroundings, it seems you are in an abandoned apartment building. You wander out into the hallway and see a group of other people standing at the end of a dark hallway. One of them looks at you and says, “ good the last one is here” Last one? Confusion starts to take over. As the group spreads apart there is a tape recorder on a table sitting directly in front of a door. There is a note on the tape recorder that says, “press play when all 12 of you wake up” Confusion starts to take over again and it seems the only way to make sense is to press “play”

“ You have all been bought here to play a game, and playing the game is the key to survival. Behind this table is a door, this door is the only way in or out. There are 3 locks on this door with 3 separate keys that open them. Successfully find the keys and you find your way to freedom. Each key has a number that corresponds to the lock it opens. 2 of the lock open the doors to freedom, find the third lock and I wouldn’t want to be the one to open it. There are 2 of my assistants among you who posses the 2 correct keys, discover who they are and you discover your freedom. The third key is on an prisoner known only to my assistants. My assistants have the keys hidden in an odd place, their stomachs, and are now playing the game themselves. It is their job to eliminate the prisoners before the prisoners eliminate them and release themselves. Now look underneath the taperecorder and let the game begin…”

You look under the tape recorder and find a scalpel as it all starts to make sense.

[Lathum]

Rules-

Each day cycle ALL villagers MUST cast a vote to lynch one player. That player will be lynched and, searched, for a key. When a key is found whoever cast the first successful lynch vote must open the corresponding lock. If they successfully open the lock that player will be immune from the next days lynch vote for their bravery. If they don’t successfully open the lock the next days lynch vote will be the least of their concerns.

Each night cycle the assistants will attempt to kill one of the prisoners in order to achieve a 1:1 ratio. Since it is an abandoned apartment building you all think it’s best to spend each night in a separate apartment to make the assistants job harder.



As always there is no quoting of PM’s and no editing of posts. Since this is my first game I hope all goes well, any questions feel free to post or PM me.

In case of a tie there will be no lynch that day.

Victory Conditions-

Prisoners: Find both correct keys that open the doors and release yourself to freedom while killing the assistants in the process

Assistants: Kill enough prisoners to achieve a 1:1 ratio thus being released by the mastermind.


Game Schedule:

The game will consist of 2 game periods. The Daytime period which will run from 9:00am EST until the deadline of 9:00pm EST each night between Monday and Friday. The Nighttime period will run from 9:00pm EST until the deadline of 9:00am EST each night between Monday and Friday. The weekend schedule will be stated at the time based on popular choice.


Roles-

Prisoners: You have been bought here against your will and must find the correct keys before the assistants eliminate you.

Assistants: You are the assistant to an evil mastermind who plays games using human pawns. You thought you were getting a front row seat to his latest masterpiece but found yourself playing for your life.


Bodybuilder: Once per night you may guard another players room. If you successfully block a kill you have a 30% chance of discovering the attacker. You may not guard the same person twice in a row.

Retired Detective: Each night you may select a person to spy on. If you select assistant up to no good you have a 75% chance of discovering their identify but they have a 25% chance of discovering your identity and springing a booby trap on you.

Fasttalker: Once per game you have the ability to either

1. Talk your way out of a lynch. The person who has the second most votes will be lynched instead.

2. Choose someone else to unlock the door, the person you have chosen will gain immunity if the lock opens successfully.




ROLES TO COME SOON

[SnDvls]

in

[Barkeep49]

Great to see this game. Might I suggest putting something like WW XXXV SAW (12 Player Game) in the title so people know it's a short game?

[oliegirl]

Is it going to be very complex/complicated? I'd love to play but since I've only played the beginner game st.cronin did a week or two ago, I don't want to ruin it for anyone else...

[Lathum]

Is it going to be very complex/complicated? I'd love to play but since I've only played the beginner game st.cronin did a week or two ago, I don't want to ruin it for anyone else...

this is the first game i have run so it will be very simple

[LoneStarGirl]

in

[LoneStarGirl]

Olie, you should play

[Izulde]

Sure I'll hop in.

[saldana]

i suppose i should play since you are running it, lathum, so i guess i'm in

[Neuqua]

I'll play.

[oliegirl]

I'm in

[Swaggs]

I'm in.

I like this movie.

[Tyrith]

I'm in, time to get back on the saddle.

[Lorena]

That movie psychologically damaged me.

ININININININININ!!!

[Blade6119]

Ill play this one if DCs playing(creepy 2 minutes after her, but its when i got here)

[Chief Rum]

This is great. Three girls in a slasher flick-based game. Gotta have the girls in any slasher horror pic. :)

I won't be in this one, BTW, but will read with interest.

[Lorena]

Ill play this one if DCs playing(creepy 2 minutes after her, but its when i got here)

Freaking awesome man... glad to see you aboard Blade.

I'm pretty excited about this game... gimme some gore! http://planetsmilies.net/violent-smiley-1514.gif

[Grammaticus]

I'll play

[LoneStarGirl]

how many we got lathum? We should be ready to start soon

[Lathum]

how many we got lathum? We should be ready to start soon

need one more to go. Roles will go out monday night with day cycle to begin on tuesday morning.

[st.cronin]

in

[Alan T]

Im going to be reading along in interest too :) I thought about doing a Saw theme at one point, so interested to see how it goes!

[Lorena]

Let the game begin http://www.effectica.com/images/smilies/eff_smile/EvilGrin.gif

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/lions_gate_films/saw/shawnee_smith/jawtrap1.jpg

[Lorena]

Hmm... since I've yet to see Saw II, in honor of this game, I'm renting it tonight.

BTW, have there ever been several WW games with similar themes? I'm curious because AlanT mentioned he was gonna do a Saw theme.

[Neuqua]

I'm not much of a horror movie guy, and the first Saw (haven't seen the others) was a bit too freaky for my tastes, nonetheless, I'm looking forward to playing!

[SnDvls]

I've never seen either movie so it should be interesting.

[Grammaticus]

It's all about choices......

[saldana]

I've never seen either movie so it should be interesting.

same here


Lathum, a couple questions.
1. you say everyone MUST vote...is there a penalty for failing to do so?

2. is the "least of your concern" bit only if you open the door that doesnt lead to freedom?

[Lathum]

same here


Lathum, a couple questions.
1. you say everyone MUST vote...is there a penalty for failing to do so?

2. is the "least of your concern" bit only if you open the door that doesnt lead to freedom?

Sorry, forgot to mention the non vote penalty. If you miss the vote you are automaticlly the person designated to attempt the key if there is one discovered but if you are succesfull you do not gain immunity.

The answer to number 2 basiclly means if you attempt to open the one lock that doesn't work something bad will happen. This is in the spirit of the movie where there are several bobby traps.

SO for example there are 3 keys labeled 1,2,3. Two of them will succesfully open the doors the third one will not. The key numbers have been pre determined.

[saldana]

thanks....that pretty much guarantees that i will never cast the first vote.

[saldana]

dola, at least not until i see what happens to someone else :D

[Blade6119]

thanks....that pretty much guarantees that i will never cast the first vote.

There are only 3 keys, so chances are you wont hit one today.

[Lorena]

Got my role. Time to watch the movie http://www.aimface.com/ikons/IKONeac47d3f042ee504d4e66c0140b250a7cd869f9297.gif

[LoneStarGirl]

Ooooh this seems spooky. I just need to find the two assistants now. I've never played a game without jail or something like it. This one should be interesting

[Lorena]

Wow, I just read the rules. Right now, I'm scared outta my mind http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/images/smilies/icon_scared.gif. I think I need to be held... someone hold me.

[LoneStarGirl]

*holds dodgerchick*

I am ready to see Saw 3 now!!

[Lathum]

*holds dodgerchick*

I am ready to see some girl on girl action now!!


fixed that for you

[SnDvls]

prisoner checking in

[Blade6119]

fixed that for you

Your the GM, make it happen!

[Swaggs]

This should be pretty interesting.

[Tyrith]

2 bad guys out of 12 is somewhat low. A conversion ability seems possible to me, especially if it's like the other mechanics and only has a probability for success and not a certainty. But that's for Night 1.

[Grammaticus]

There are only 3 keys, so chances are you wont hit one today.

And the first key found gives us a 66% chance of hitting a good door.

[Grammaticus]

Wow, it feels weird without 50 different roles flying around.

[Blade6119]

VOTE ST.CRONIN

Im not afraid to start things off, though it amount to a random vote for someone who earned it with recent actions in past games.

[Grammaticus]

Since it is back to basics, I am putting a random vote out. It came up with the five spot

VOTE NEUQUA

[Grammaticus]

dola, subject to change of course

[Grammaticus]

Sorry, forgot to mention the non vote penalty. If you miss the vote you are automaticlly the person designated to attempt the key if there is one discovered but if you are succesfull you do not gain immunity.

The answer to number 2 basiclly means if you attempt to open the one lock that doesn't work something bad will happen. This is in the spirit of the movie where there are several bobby traps.

SO for example there are 3 keys labeled 1,2,3. Two of them will succesfully open the doors the third one will not. The key numbers have been pre determined.

If you open the bad door, does it kill you outright or is there a chance you might live or do you have to pick a fellow prisoner, etc?

[Lorena]

*holds dodgerchick*

I am ready to see Saw 3 now!!

LSG, that's not my shoulder you're holding.

[Lathum]

If you open the bad door, does it kill you outright or is there a chance you might live or do you have to pick a fellow prisoner, etc?

only one way to find out

[Lorena]

Okay, I finished watching Saw II and re-read the rules. So are the assistants hiding amongst the prisoners or are they elsewhere? I'm not entirely sure if I missed something.

[Lathum]

Okay, I finished watching Saw II and re-read the rules. So are the assistants hiding amongst the prisoners or are they elsewhere? I'm not entirely sure if I missed something.

they are among the prisoners in the same way the wolves are hidden among the villegars

[Grammaticus]

Okay, I finished watching Saw II and re-read the rules. So are the assistants hiding amongst the prisoners or are they elsewhere? I'm not entirely sure if I missed something.

I believe the prisoners = the Villagers
and
The assistants = the wolves

I'm guessing the freaky killer guy is out and about setting the traps Lathum Lathum is talking about.

[Lorena]

VOTE ST.CRONIN

Im not afraid to start things off, though it amount to a random vote for someone who earned it with recent actions in past games.

You are brave Blade... very very brave.

If you open the bad door, does it kill you outright or is there a chance you might live or do you have to pick a fellow prisoner, etc?

I wonder if watching the movies will give us additional info than some people who haven't seen it yet. I know Lathum mentioned that we don't need knowledge of the movie to play the game. But ya never know.

I just finished watching Saw II and it was freaking awesome. It wasn't as much of the psycological thriller than the first, but it was still pretty damn good.

[Blade6119]

You are brave Blade... very very brave.

Its a fine line between brave and arrogant...im glad you chose to be kind DC :)

You know me, i dont like quiet and lack of activity. The earlier we start putting people on the spot the more info we can glean. Now, thats predicated upon the assumption everyone will discuss and be active, which might be a false hope. Only time will tell...

[Tyrith]

I wouldn't worry too much about the source material. Very rarely do the GMs make mechanics visable like that, they just stick to the game in and of itself, and use the setting for flavor, unless it is something they tell us about.

[saldana]

in the spirit of randomness,

vote tyrith

(i asked my wife to pick a number between 1 and 12)

[oliegirl]

Prisoner Oliegirl checking in...I'll be stopping in during the day to catch up and put my 2 cents in.

[Lorena]

I like the immunity/possible death of the first to cast a successful/unsucessful vote on a victim. If this individual has a key and ends up getting lynched, for my own sake I hope I'm right.

Vote Sndvls

Random, first day vote, subject to change... yadda yadda yadda.

[st.cronin]

Vote Blade

"recent actions?"

[SnDvls]

I like the immunity/possible death of the first to cast a successful/unsucessful vote on a victim. If this individual has a key and ends up getting lynched, for my own sake I hope I'm right.

Vote Sndvls

Random, first day vote, subject to change... yadda yadda yadda.

back at you...well that and they traded Sun Devil Alumni Lo Duca too :)
vote Dodgerchick

[Izulde]

Vote Oliegirl

For no reason other than her sniffing me out last game. :D

I'm a prisoner this go-round though, so it'll be interesting seeing how the other half lives.

[saldana]

i never saw either of these movies...i dont really watch horror flicks....can someone that has seen them give me a primer?

[oliegirl]

Vote Oliegirl

For no reason other than her sniffing me out last game. :D

I'm a prisoner this go-round though, so it'll be interesting seeing how the other half lives.

So because of the fact that I'm intuitive and figured you out early in the game hurts me? If you really are a prisoner shouldn't you be thinking more along the lines of "Hmmm, Olie played well last time and somehow figured me out right away - maybe I should do what I can to keep her alive so she can help us win"???? Seems awfully assistant-ish to me...

VOTE IZULDE

[Lorena]

i never saw either of these movies...i dont really watch horror flicks....can someone that has seen them give me a primer?

Saw I (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387564/plotsummary)

Saw II (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0432348/plotsummary)

It's basically all about the choices you make and solving puzzles.

[LoneStarGirl]

Well my favorite number is 10, and since we are all being so random I decided to pick whoever was the tenth person to sign up for this game.

Vote Blade

[Lorena]

So because of the fact that I'm intuitive and figured you out early in the game hurts me? If you really are a prisoner shouldn't you be thinking more along the lines of "Hmmm, Olie played well last time and somehow figured me out right away - maybe I should do what I can to keep her alive so she can help us win"???? Seems awfully assistant-ish to me...

VOTE IZULDE

Oliegirl, this is actually quite normal in WW especially on day 1 votes when we have nothing to go on.

Interesting how everyone voted for the person who voted for them. Should be for an entertaining showdown towards the end of the day.

[Swaggs]

Does anyone see any merit of forcing a tie on day 1?

I usually like to get a lynching done on day 1, just to build a history, but recently my philosophy has been changing, since usually the wolves can manipulate things better than we can because they can vote in blocks and usually a villager is lynched on day 1.

[st.cronin]

Does anyone see any merit of forcing a tie on day 1?

I usually like to get a lynching done on day 1, just to build a history, but recently my philosophy has been changing, since usually the wolves can manipulate things better than we can because they can vote in blocks and usually a villager is lynched on day 1.

In a simple, small game like this, I think you might be right. In a large game, I think day 1 showdowns are more likely to end up as villager v. villager, so analysis of votes tends to be useless.

[Swaggs]

I will be back in a few hours.

Hope to see more discussion/thoughts on working on a tie.

[Tyrith]

I agree with the idea of a tie today. Day One is shaping up to be perfect for getting a random good guy killed because the winner is likely to only have three or so votes. If we force a tie we might can figure out what will happen, and we can watch to see if anyone tries to screw around with the vote to unbreak the tie at the deadline.

[SnDvls]

Saw I (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387564/plotsummary)

Saw II (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0432348/plotsummary)

It's basically all about the choices you make and solving puzzles.

funny I saw (no pun intended) a preview for Saw III last night.

[Grammaticus]

i never saw either of these movies...i dont really watch horror flicks....can someone that has seen them give me a primer?

Saldana,

The killer often sets people up with a decision to hurt someone else in order to save themselves or let themselves get hurt. The picture DC shows us earlier in the thread is a girl with a contraption attached to her jaws. It works like a reverse bear trap set on a timer. When the time is up, it will open splitting her skull in two. There is a guy strapped to a table next to her. She is told the key to the jaw trap is inside his stomach and there is a scalpel laying there. That particular choice is to murder the guy (cut open his guts) to get the key and let yourself out or let your skull split open.

[Grammaticus]

I think the tie is a poor idea. If there was a tie breaker role or mechanic to break the tie, then maybe you could get something out of it. The rules post, says a tie results in “no lynch” and that is bad for the prisoners. Any activity that does not increase your chances of hitting an assistant on the next turn is not good for the prisoners

[Tyrith]

*rereads rules* Yep, tie is no lynch. Hrm.

My problem with Day One is that we're just picking blindly, we have _zero_ real information to go off of. We only have a one-in-six (17%) chance of hitting a bad guy randomly, and our real odds are probably significantly less than that because the bad guys can probably lynch with three, maybe four votes if we don't do anything today.

[Lorena]

I'm not really sure about a tie either. I mean at least we have a shot at an assistant, which is better than no shot at all. The possibility of lynching a villager is really high, but there's still that small chance. If there's a tie, we miss a day in a possible lynching of an assistant.

I say no tie.

[Tyrith]

After doing some math about the numbers and some likely scenarios, I don't suppose it's really worth keeping the extra villager alive...my only problem is, who do we kill? And how do we manage to make any sense of the voting record after we decide to kill this person?

[Lorena]

After doing some math about the numbers and some likely scenarios, I don't suppose it's really worth keeping the extra villager alive...my only problem is, who do we kill? And how do we manage to make any sense of the voting record after we decide to kill this person?

Yeah, that's the crapshoot that is Day 1 voting. So it comes down to whether or not we wanna take that small shot at getting an assistant, or do we wanna lose a day?

[Tyrith]

If we are only going to kill a good guy what have we lost by passing up a day? Assuming the bad guys can communicate (and considering the ratio, they almost have to be able to) then they can swing the vote subtlely unless we dump five or six votes on someone. A no-information situation is not a good one.

The only problem is that we could be in this exact same spot tomorrow. The odds of picking up information tonight are not very good. So it might be good to create some pressure.

[st.cronin]

Ok, so a tie is a bad idea. I think it may be worth it, though, to settle on two candidates.

[st.cronin]

vote count:

Blade - 2, st.cronin, LoneStargirl
st.cronin - 1, Blade
Neuqua - 1, Gram
tyrith - 1, saldana
Sndvls - 1, dodgerchick
dodgerchick - 1, SnDvls
Izulde - 1, oliegirl
oliegirl - 1, Izulde

I don't see votes from Neuqua, tyrith,and Swaggs. I would suggest that those three not cast votes for people who have 0 votes, but rather pick from the above list.

[Tyrith]

I really don't like doing this, because I don't have any good reason for doing so except other than trying to create some pressure and a response. I'm certainly open to new ideas, but it's time to start trying to do something.

VOTE BLADE

[Lorena]

It works both ways. It's easy for an assistant to hide behind the tie strategy that's being suggested and you're right Tyrith, in the end, we would have learned nothing and we're back to square one tomorrow with no voting pattern.

I just don't like the idea of losing a day, that is all.

[Blade6119]

I really don't like doing this, because I don't have any good reason for doing so except other than trying to create some pressure and a response. I'm certainly open to new ideas, but it's time to start trying to do something.

VOTE BLADE

Im not an assistant...if i was why would i come out and be the first to vote? And if i was i would claim a random pick and not actual personal reasons...come on guys, your making a mistake in killing me...

[Blade6119]

And i hate the tie-idea...there is no reason not to lynch someone today

[Blade6119]

Well, im down 3-1...anyone want to come to my aid?

[st.cronin]

The only people who know for sure that you're a villager are the wolves, Blade. Do you see anything in anybody's posts that alarms you?

[Tyrith]

Im not an assistant...if i was why would i come out and be the first to vote? And if i was i would claim a random pick and not actual personal reasons...come on guys, your making a mistake in killing me...

I know. The risk thing came to mind as soon as I cast the vote, and it makes me kind of hate this entire situation.

Only speculation -- knowing you, blade, and considering the size of this game, this could have been some sort of ultra-brave play taking a chance to try to steamroll one of the other highly experienced players, using what you're saying now as a fallback plan. This seems unlikely to me, seeing that you seem to stick to a solid game usually, but the thought crossed my mind.

Still open to a change in plans.

[Blade6119]

I know. The risk thing came to mind as soon as I cast the vote, and it makes me kind of hate this entire situation.

Only speculation -- knowing you, blade, and considering the size of this game, this could have been some sort of ultra-brave play taking a chance to try to steamroll one of the other highly experienced players, using what you're saying now as a fallback plan. This seems unlikely to me, seeing that you seem to stick to a solid game usually, but the thought crossed my mind.

Still open to a change in plans.

To be perfectly honest, if i was bad my night one kill was going to be LSG. Night two was going to be swaggs. Its well documented i like to kill of the vets early, so i would have gone a different route. I voted you for comments you made two games ago that i didnt particularly enjoy, nothing more.

Cronin, im good...you guys dont want to kill me on day 1...what more can i say?

[Tyrith]

I understand now why there are only two wolves, as the shorter game makes these initial days of mass disorientation hurt more. I was fairly certain there was a conversion ability out there before, but now...I don't know.

[Blade6119]

Ok, i meant to quote cronin and not tyrith

[SnDvls]

has anyone not checked in?

[st.cronin]

But the assistants know where the keys are, so they wouldn't be afraid to make a first vote. Right?

[Lorena]

Geez Blade, I kinda feel bad for you; you seem to always be the target of a lynch early in the game and I don't get it.

I don't know if you're an assistant or a prisoner, but I actually like having you around because you keep the conversations going.

[Blade6119]

The only people who know for sure that you're a villager are the wolves, Blade. Do you see anything in anybody's posts that alarms you?

Well people trying to get me killed on day one alarms me as usual. I dont at all mind your vote back for me, but the other 2 are odd. Outside of that, i see 1 vote that piques my interest but id prefer to hold off on attacking someone else until i have to. Its not definite, so i dont want to want to place blame until i have more or am desperate.

[Blade6119]

But the assistants know where the keys are, so they wouldn't be afraid to make a first vote. Right?

I was referencing more the fact it draws attention to me then the keys. We only have a 1/4 chance of hitting a key today, so im not too worried about it.

[Blade6119]

Geez Blade, I kinda feel bad for you; you seem to always be the target of a lynch early in the game and I don't get it.

I don't know if you're an assistant or a prisoner, but I actually like having you around because you keep the conversations going.

Would you be willing to swap onto someone with a vote already with me to create a tie, and thefore a shot of me not dying based on other players?

[st.cronin]

I think tyrith's third vote was decidedly odd. I would have expected him to go in a different direction.

unvote Blade
vote Tyrith

2-2 now.

[SnDvls]

so is this going to be our two person race or do we want a three person race?
I'll gladly move my vote if dodger does as well

[Blade6119]

UNVOTE ST. CRONIN

VOTE SWAGGS

I know he doesnt have any votes on him yet, but hes the one who made me a little suspicious. He came in and pushed for a tie, then left without voting(in my scenario so he can vote later when its more clear where his vote will go most unnoticed).

Im not in immediate danger yet, and if reach that point i will vote accordingly. For now though, my vote is on my top suspect.

[Tyrith]

Well, at least something got stirred up. Putting a third vote on blade was the only thing I could do that I figured would actually accomplish my goal -- getting people talking some. Stacking a second vote on some random player was unlikely to do much. Now that things have gotten going, I'm going to back off.

UNVOTE BLADE

[Tyrith]

I've found a historical pattern in Werewolf games about people that try to stir up the pot on Day One getting their heads chopped off. I'm going to have to remember this for next time, because I really don't like my position right now.

Swaggs has mentioned that he doesn't like Day One lynches before -- in WW 34, where they're able to have not lynch days, I know he talked about it. He's also usually kind of come-and-go. This all makes me hesistant to join in on Blade's vote. However, I have no further ideas than being suspicious at blade for just being blade. This really sucks, especially since I got myself into trouble now.

[Blade6119]

I've found a historical pattern in Werewolf games about people that try to stir up the pot on Day One getting their heads chopped off. I'm going to have to remember this for next time, because I really don't like my position right now.

Swaggs has mentioned that he doesn't like Day One lynches before -- in WW 34, where they're able to have not lynch days, I know he talked about it. He's also usually kind of come-and-go. This all makes me hesistant to join in on Blade's vote. However, I have no further ideas than being suspicious at blade for just being blade. This really sucks, especially since I got myself into trouble now.
I feel soo bad for you for drawing a little suspicion for doing the same thing i did, trying to get activity and conversation started. Welcome to my world...I will say your vote had far more of a bandwagon feel and not a discussion starter, to be fair.

[Swaggs]

Catching up now....

(Perhaps it was not a great idea to play in two WW games at the same time, as it can take awhile to get caught up after work. :) )

[Blade6119]

Id imagine i can expect a vote from swaggs, so i will have to start working my defense again soon.

[Tyrith]

One further note: Like Blade, if I was a bad guy why would I take the risk of stirring up more trouble by starting a potential dogpile like that? Stuff like that tends to get rooted out and whoever started it slaughtered when they come up good.

[Tyrith]

I feel soo bad for you for drawing a little suspicion for doing the same thing i did, trying to get activity and conversation started. Welcome to my world...I will say your vote had far more of a bandwagon feel and not a discussion starter, to be fair.

True, but I couldn't explain my reasoning at the time, or it wouldn't work. My plan was to vote for you, see what happened, and then unvote unless I had some good reason not to. We had to at least start talking, but the threat of force is no good if everyone knows that you won't go through with it. I still have no idea, but at least we're thinking.

[Blade6119]

True, but I couldn't explain my reasoning at the time, or it wouldn't work. My plan was to vote for you, see what happened, and then unvote unless I had some good reason not to. We had to at least start talking, but the threat of force is no good if everyone knows that you won't go through with it. I still have no idea, but at least we're thinking.

It was more a matter of timing, i started defending myself as soon as i got home from my classes today. I understand what your stated reasons are, but at the same time i think a vote to make it 2-2 would create more discussion then a 3-1 vote...that just creates a bandwagon if you ask me, and i am lucky one didnt form before i could stop it.

[Swaggs]

Id imagine i can expect a vote from swaggs, so i will have to start working my defense again soon.

Blade, I'm giving you a clean slate for this game. Last time we played together, it got out of hand and was silly, so today is a new day. Unless I get piled on and have to vote for you, I am not going to today, since you are being active in this game.

Since we are not looking for a tie today, which makes sense in hindsight since we need the keys to get out of here, I am just going to randomly vote:

Vote Neuqua[B]

[Swaggs]

Well... that worked well.

Should read: Vote Neuqua

[Tyrith]

It was more a matter of timing, i started defending myself as soon as i got home from my classes today. I understand what your stated reasons are, but at the same time i think a vote to make it 2-2 would create more discussion then a 3-1 vote...that just creates a bandwagon if you ask me, and i am lucky one didnt form before i could stop it.

Yeah, that wasn't so smart in retrospect.

[Tyrith]

Blade, I'm giving you a clean slate for this game. Last time we played together, it got out of hand and was silly, so today is a new day. Unless I get piled on and have to vote for you, I am not going to today, since you are being active in this game.

Since we are not looking for a tie today, which makes sense in hindsight since we need the keys to get out of here, I am just going to randomly vote:

Vote Neuqua[B]

This screams ALERT ALERT ALERT to me. We're not going for a tie...so you're going to divide the vote even more? Low vote totals create ties, not fix them. I want to see if/how blade reacts to this, but I am now suspicious.

[Blade6119]

Blade, I'm giving you a clean slate for this game. Last time we played together, it got out of hand and was silly, so today is a new day. Unless I get piled on and have to vote for you, I am not going to today, since you are being active in this game.

Since we are not looking for a tie today, which makes sense in hindsight since we need the keys to get out of here, I am just going to randomly vote:

Vote Neuqua[B]

I was referencing the fact i voted for you just then, not some expectation for you to hold some ill feelings over past games.

As for your vote, its at least not someone with 0 votes, so nequa now has a little pressure on him just like myself and tyrith. I for one like having 3-4 suspects really on the block, and would like to see how the pieces fall. Now, i dont think im going to get all the random votes to swtich, but i would like them to. Close votes with 3 suspects, which we have right now, can be quite useful in time.

No tyrith, i don't see it as being as alarming as you do. But he knows as well i, and possibly others, had him under the microscope so i didnt expect any different regardless of his role.

[Tyrith]

Shit. I didn't realize Neuqua had another vote. WHY AM I BEING SO DUMB TODAY!?

[st.cronin]

I think 2 suspects would be better. Three suspects, and if one of them is a wolf, you pretty much guarantee that he won't get lynched.

[Lorena]

I need to go to the gym, but should be back at 8:00pm eastern time. I was kind of expecting a semi-slow day today, but now I have to catch up a page and a half, so I don't know where things stand right now.

Would you be willing to swap onto someone with a vote already with me to create a tie, and thefore a shot of me not dying based on other players?

Well, I'm not in favor of ties. We'll see where things are by the time I come back. I just didn't like how several people jumped to get you lynched.

Cya'll in about an hour or so.

[Grammaticus]

Sorry, forgot to mention the non vote penalty. If you miss the vote you are automaticlly the person designated to attempt the key if there is one discovered but if you are succesfull you do not gain immunity.

The answer to number 2 basiclly means if you attempt to open the one lock that doesn't work something bad will happen. This is in the spirit of the movie where there are several bobby traps.

SO for example there are 3 keys labeled 1,2,3. Two of them will succesfully open the doors the third one will not. The key numbers have been pre determined.

Lathum, what happens if someone does not vote and a key is NOT found?

[Tyrith]

Blade only has one vote now, and I don't think he's likely to get much momentum again, so I wouldn't worry about him too much.

[Grammaticus]

dola,

Only person I'm showing who has not voted is Neuqua and I want to know if he gets a free pass if we don't hit a key.

[Tyrith]

Gram, that's what I get out of the rules.

[Grammaticus]

I gotta go for a run and should be back before lynch. Although, for now I am okay with leaving my vote where it is on the non voter, which as far as I can say is the least helpful thing I have seen so far for the prisoners.

[Blade6119]

Well nequa, now that your here lets hear something.

[Neuqua]

Catching up now, just recovered from the Bears comeback hangover :)

[Blade6119]

soooo, did nequa just leave again?

[Neuqua]

At this point, I'm almost voting to stay alive am I not? Unless I've miscalculated it's between myself and Tyrith? Someone tell me I'm wrong and I'll try to make a more informed (for day 1 atleast) vote.

Vote Tyrith

[LoneStarGirl]

Blade, why would you have killed me if you were a wolf? Now the wolves are going to kill me tonight and try to frame you. Thanks for throwing me under the bus.

[LoneStarGirl]

Since Nequa just voted, if Tyrinth and Nequa are tied with 2 votes each, then ill change off Blade and vote for one of them. I just dont know which one yet. We have less than an hour and i definitly don't want a tie.

[Tyrith]

I have three votes, Neq has two. I will have to tie it, and LSG is probably going to vote to kill me here unless something changes.

[Grammaticus]

Since Nequa just voted, if Tyrinth and Nequa are tied with 2 votes each, then ill change off Blade and vote for one of them. I just dont know which one yet. We have less than an hour and i definitly don't want a tie.

I think Tyrith has three and Neugua has two. But Tygrith took his vote off Blade and has not recaste. So he can throw a vote on Neugua to make a tie.

[Tyrith]

I'm not going to tie for the sake of tying, at least not now. I'd really rather come up with something more constructive than self defense, if we still have time.

[Blade6119]

Blade, why would you have killed me if you were a wolf? Now the wolves are going to kill me tonight and try to frame you. Thanks for throwing me under the bus.

Because you are a fairly rescourceful player, but your not considered on the experience level of players like cronin and sndvls. You would make a solid kill that would generally be considered against what is expected of me as a wolf.

I highly doubt the wolves will kill you, no worries. I have 4 people i expect to be chosen from.

[Neuqua]

I agree with Tyrith, I only put my vote to him for the sake of being able to still play, I do not necessarily think he is an assistant.

Truth be told though, right now I have zero idea who is an assistant and who isn't. Day 1 is always the toughest.

[Tyrith]

Hrm. This is the last time I say or do anything on Day One other than casting the prototypical "random vote". All doing anything remotely interesting on Day One seems to do is get you killed.

[st.cronin]

Hrm. This is the last time I say or do anything on Day One other than casting the prototypical "random vote". All doing anything remotely interesting on Day One seems to do is get you killed.

There's time left. :D

Anyway, you are mostly right about day 1, but it's not always true, and what you did wasn't exactly "interesting." It was more like "oddly suspicious," at least to me.

[Tyrith]

I figured I could get blade to react, because he's active. Putting pressure on people that don't talk much doesn't usually work; on day one there's usually some "please don't kill me" post followed by silence. I never intended to actually kill him; if I did I would have left my vote on him and let things develop. In retrospect it was fairly dumb, but eh, I was at least trying to do something.

It goes back to what I think I heard Saldana talking about -- the active people tend to be the ones to get killed the most often, and the more quiet players are usually allowed to live because there can be any momentum stirred up to rise against them. It's viciously annoying because it makes Day One a totally roulette wheel, which is why we might be better off with a tie, although that won't happen now. I didn't use to like Night 0, but after reading WW34, it makes more sense to me.

[Tyrith]

Future possible strategy for good guys in games where lynches can be avoided, and there are mechanics where you can catch people in night kills: Avoid any lynches for 2-3 days, work to try to get evidence at night, and then start killing people when there's actually some positive advantage to doing it. Especially in days like today the wolves can make sure no one dies, because even one vote can swing it, and when villager vs. villager happens they don't have to proactively DO anything to get what they want. Random Day One lynches are a terrible strategy for the good guys based on sheer numbers -- the only advantage is the small chance that a dogpile develops on an actual bad guy.

[Lathum]

Lathum, what happens if someone does not vote and a key is NOT found?

nothing would happen, but miss 2 votes in a row and they will be replaced

[Lathum]

current vote counts

tyrinth 3 ( saldana, St.Cronin, Neuqua)
Neuqua 2( swaggs, gramm)
BLade 1 LSG)
sndvls 1 ( dodgerchick)
Izulde 1 ( oliegirl)
Dodgerchick 1 ( sndvls)
swaggs 1 ( blade )

5 minutes to deadline

[Lorena]

OT

Has anyone seen the Denny Green meltdown? Well Antmeister put a WW twist on it:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=53467

view post # 3 and #27

[Tyrith]

VOTE NEUQUA

[st.cronin]

OT

Has anyone seen the Denny Green meltdown? Well Antmeister put a WW twist on it:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=53467

view post # 3 and #27

very nice

[Grammaticus]

current vote counts

tyrinth 3 ( saldana, St.Cronin, Neuqua)
Neuqua 2( swaggs, gramm)
BLade 1 LSG)
sndvls 1 ( dodgerchick)
Izulde 1 ( oliegirl)
Dodgerchick 1 ( sndvls)
swaggs 1 ( blade )

5 minutes to deadline

This has 2 people not voting, Neuqua and who?

[Tyrith]

Sorry to do that, folks. But if you have to spend tomorrow burning me down, well, that's one less dead good guy.

[Lathum]

deadline

[Tyrith]

And the missing vote is izulde's vote for olie, post 63.

[Lathum]

This has 2 people not voting, Neuqua and who?

the above didn't reflect oliegirl

[Lathum]

There is much heated discussion and confusion about why you are here and how to get out. Accusations fly around about who may be an assistant in this evil plan and who must die in order for you all to live. Tyrinth becomes the object of suspiscoun but his late vote on neuque causes you all to be deadlocked. You all decide it's best for the descion to kill someone to be the majority and detirmine no one will die today. You all look at the door with its 3 locks remaining and wonder if you will live throught the night.

Day stage has ended, all PM's must be sent by 9 AM EST

Final vote

Neuqua 3 ( swaggs, gramm, tyrith)
Tyrith 3 ( saldana, St. Cronin, Neuqua)
Sndvls 1( dodgerchick)
Izulde 1 ( oliegirl)
Oliegirl 1 ( Izulde)
Swaggs 1 (blade)
Dodgerchick 1 ( sndvls)
Blade 1 ( LSG)

[Lorena]

Well that's nice

[st.cronin]

lol

[Grammaticus]

OT

Has anyone seen the Denny Green meltdown? Well Antmeister put a WW twist on it:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=53467

view post # 3 and #27

And post #27 counts

[LoneStarGirl]

Well i guess its obvious who we are giong to be killing tomorrow night.

[Lorena]

Well i guess its obvious who we are giong to be killing tomorrow night.

Who is that and care to elaborate why?

[Lorena]

And post #27 counts

Yeah, I was trying to get him to post it in this forum but I guess he wanted his post to count.

[saldana]

god damn it...that was stupid....way to give the wolves a free ride into a night kill so that we can play stupid randomness again tomorrow...how in the blue hell are we supposed to get any information or develop patterns when we just spent the last 12 hours jerking off.

[Lorena]

god damn it...that was stupid....way to give the wolves a free ride into a night kill so that we can play stupid randomness again tomorrow...how in the blue hell are we supposed to get any information or develop patterns when we just spent the last 12 hours jerking off.

That's the point I was trying to make, but you explained it a hell of a lot better than I did.

[Lorena]

Well, except the part about jerking off, my anatomy does not allow me to do that :rolleyes: :D

[Tyrith]

Yes. It would have been better for us if someone had actually tried to screw with my scheme. But given the choice of me or no vote, well, I know that I'm on the right side. Maybe something will develop tonight, maybe not, but we'll see.

[Swaggs]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what the hell happened?

Yes. It would have been better for us if someone had actually tried to screw with my scheme. But given the choice of me or no vote, well, I know that I'm on the right side. Maybe something will develop tonight, maybe not, but we'll see.

What was your scheme?

[Blade6119]

Thats pathetic...one of these two needs to die tomorrow now.

[Neuqua]

Thats pathetic...one of these two needs to die tomorrow now.

These two meaning myself or Tyrith?

[Blade6119]

These two meaning myself or Tyrith?

Id prefer tyrith after his antics today, but yes. Barring some information coming out tonight tyrith is my vote tomorrow. He has done far more then anyone else to earn a vote, and i dont just mean his last second vote to cost us a lynch.

[st.cronin]

Id prefer tyrith after his antics today, but yes. Barring some information coming out tonight tyrith is my vote tomorrow. He has done far more then anyone else to earn a vote, and i dont just mean his last second vote to cost us a lynch.

To be fair, his choice was either to be lynched himself, or to force the tie. It might make more sense to look at some of the players who were NOT involved in the tie, since any one of them could have made sure that what happened didn't happen.

[LoneStarGirl]

Who is that and care to elaborate why?

Why did you ask that? Saldana pretty much explained it crystal clear.

[Blade6119]

Sorry to do that, folks. But if you have to spend tomorrow burning me down, well, that's one less dead good guy.

This is the post that says it all...thats just not good villager play...good or bad hes not helping the team

[LoneStarGirl]

It might make more sense to look at some of the players who were NOT involved in the tie, since any one of them could have made sure that what happened didn't happen.

In all fairness, Gram and St. Cronin were both online at 8 pm so they could have stopped this by changing their vote quickly

[st.cronin]

In all fairness, Gram and St. Cronin were both online at 8 pm so they could have stopped this by changing their vote quickly

Tyrith's vote came 1 minute before deadline. Until then it wasn't a tie.

[Lorena]

Why did you ask that? Saldana pretty much explained it crystal clear.

Well yeah, but that was his opinion... I asked for yours, not his.

[Neuqua]

Tyrith's vote came 1 minute before deadline. Until then it wasn't a tie.

Did you really think he wouldn't have voted for me, if otherwise he'd be knocked out?

[Blade6119]

Did you really think he wouldn't have voted for me, if otherwise he'd be knocked out?

Bullet didnt last game when he was going down...but to be fair, waiting until 1 minute to the deadline is one purpose to screw the team.

To be honest, right now it feels like you both could be bad and he didnt want to give anyone a chance to kill you.

[Neuqua]

Fair enough, wouldn't know about bullets situation, just thought it the obvious move. My bad.

[Izulde]

I know I'm going to be voting for Tyrith tomorrow (I was in class until just now). That type of selfish move is pure asshattery. When I was a wolf last game I was in and I knew I was going to get lynched, I told the others to go ahead and sac me so they could stay alive and our side had a chance to win.

[Blade6119]

Fair enough, wouldn't know about bullets situation, just thought it the obvious move. My bad.

I expected him to vote for you, but i didnt expect him to wait until 1 minute to the deadline...thats just not in the interest of the village. Doing it even 5 minutes earlier would give someone a chance to break the tie.

His move makes him look bad, and to me makes both of you look bad. I think he needs to die, and im not so sure you dont need to as well

[st.cronin]

Bullet didnt last game when he was going down...but to be fair, waiting until 1 minute to the deadline is one purpose to screw the team.

To be honest, right now it feels like you both could be bad and he didnt want to give anyone a chance to kill you.

Yeah, waiting til one minute to deadline is pretty weak. Well, we'll see.

[Tyrith]

Bullet didnt last game when he was going down...but to be fair, waiting until 1 minute to the deadline is one purpose to screw the team.

To be honest, right now it feels like you both could be bad and he didnt want to give anyone a chance to kill you.

I had to wait. I vote earlier, someone votes onto me, I die, and you spend tomorrow killing ANOTHER villager instead of me. If you're going to kill me I'd rather you have to do it tomorrow because it means we won't spend tomorrow running around like chickens with our heads cut off -- tomorrow I can die instead of killing another random person. Random kills aren't good, because random kills eat at the primary resource we have, which is warm bodies. Especially with vote counts that low, the wolves could influence it, just like I did.

When I die tomorrow you can get some information out of it. Killing me for the sake of killing me is wrong. Even though I fully expect to die at this point, listen to cronin, because more than likely the wolves are the people that are lying low -- they don't have to go out of their way to kill villagers at this point, so they're not going to do anything.

[Tyrith]

I know I'm going to be voting for Tyrith tomorrow (I was in class until just now). That type of selfish move is pure asshattery. When I was a wolf last game I was in and I knew I was going to get lynched, I told the others to go ahead and sac me so they could stay alive and our side had a chance to win.

Wouldn't that make you think that I'm not a fucking wolf then? I won't take being insulted when what I did was in the best interest of the team -- dead villagers don't DO anything, can't VOTE for anyone.

[saldana]

Tyrith's vote came 1 minute before deadline. Until then it wasn't a tie.

sometimes you just need to take one for the team...everyone that has played enough of these games has done it at least once...voting 1 minute before the deadline to force a tie is a selfish move that in the end will end up costing the prisoners. i will be voting tyrith tomorrow.

[Tyrith]

Yeah, waiting til one minute to deadline is pretty weak. Well, we'll see.

Only way to stay alive, when there are people that stated they would interfere.

Come on people. If I was a wolf do you think I'd be so daft as to run around with a flashing neon light like this? If neuqua and I were both wolves it would have been simple to cause some sort of 2-2 tie by not having him show up if nothing else. All I know is that in future games, well, I hope you don't expect me to do anything useful for the first couple of days, we can all just sit around and execute people at random instead of at least asking intelligent questions.

[Tyrith]

sometimes you just need to take one for the team...everyone that has played enough of these games has done it at least once...voting 1 minute before the deadline to force a tie is a selfish move that in the end will end up costing the prisoners. i will be voting tyrith tomorrow.

I don't understand HOW it hurts the prisoners. I want someone to explain this to me.

[Blade6119]

I had to wait. I vote earlier, someone votes onto me, I die, and you spend tomorrow killing ANOTHER villager instead of me. If you're going to kill me I'd rather you have to do it tomorrow because it means we won't spend tomorrow running around like chickens with our heads cut off -- tomorrow I can die instead of killing another random person. Random kills aren't good, because random kills eat at the primary resource we have, which is warm bodies. Especially with vote counts that low, the wolves could influence it, just like I did.

When I die tomorrow you can get some information out of it. Killing me for the sake of killing me is wrong. Even though I fully expect to die at this point, listen to cronin, because more than likely the wolves are the people that are lying low -- they don't have to go out of their way to kill villagers at this point, so they're not going to do anything.

No, now tomorrow we kill you, which still amounts to a day one kill since we have no info to go on. Then on day 3 we go off results and act like we could have tomorrow. Basically, all you have done is to cost us a lynch, as you havent changed anything.

Also, are you sure it would have swapped to you and not nequa? This is where my problem arises. You seemed quite against the idea of voting nequa, and then waited until it was too late for anyone to lynch either of you.

You did not in anyway help the villagers today. You did not prevent a random kill. If you are good, you have dramatically hindered the villagers with your play, as now we are taking two days to do what should have been done today(and its still not sure you would have been picked).

The only scenario i see this being beneficial to the villagers like you try to claim is if you and nequa are wolves and you just gave us a clear path. Tomorrow wouldnt have been random if you had died, or nequa had died. We would have evidence to go off of. Now, we truly have nothing to go off of, and thanks to you our chances of victory just diminished.

[saldana]

Wouldn't that make you think that I'm not a fucking wolf then? I won't take being insulted when what I did was in the best interest of the team -- dead villagers don't DO anything, can't VOTE for anyone.

yes they do...they die, and in dying, provide a noble service to the village...we see who voted for you...we see who forced the issue...we see who made the key moves to get a villager dead....with an assinine tie, we dont see shit, and end up in the same shitty situation tomorrow...actually it wont be exactly the same, because we will have given away a villager to the wolves over night without gaining any info from the previous day.

every friggin game i have the same arguement with people about ties...they never help us, they just give the wolves a free day.

[saldana]

somebody write this down...i think this is the first time in the history of WW that Blade and I have been in 10000% agreement with one another.;)

[Tyrith]

Let me put it this way. The odds of you all killing a bad guy anyway are still incredibly low, realistically signifcantly under the 20 percent chance. Now at least you'll kill someone you would have spent a bad kill on anyway than blowing up someone.

Oh, furthermore, for after I'm dead, why don't you look at the people that were in thread for that entire time while I had NO VOTE CAST for 45 minutes before the deadline? I recall seeing Gram and Dodgerchick who could have sealed it. Cronin was also in the thread, but he of course was already voting for me.

Day One is just so incredibly useless because the person that speaks first gets killed and it's ALWAYS a villager.

[Tyrith]

No, now tomorrow we kill you, which still amounts to a day one kill since we have no info to go on. Then on day 3 we go off results and act like we could have tomorrow. Basically, all you have done is to cost us a lynch, as you havent changed anything.

Also, are you sure it would have swapped to you and not nequa? This is where my problem arises. You seemed quite against the idea of voting nequa, and then waited until it was too late for anyone to lynch either of you.

You did not in anyway help the villagers today. You did not prevent a random kill. If you are good, you have dramatically hindered the villagers with your play, as now we are taking two days to do what should have been done today(and its still not sure you would have been picked).

The only scenario i see this being beneficial to the villagers like you try to claim is if you and nequa are wolves and you just gave us a clear path. Tomorrow wouldnt have been random if you had died, or nequa had died. We would have evidence to go off of. Now, we truly have nothing to go off of, and thanks to you our chances of victory just diminished.

What evidence? Let's see, the only votes were Saldana's vote, which was RANDOM, cronin's vote, which was based off obvious suspicion, and Neuqua's vote, which was PURE SELF PRESERVATION. That's a FUCKTON of evidence, and has been demonstrated by all the OTHER WW games where Day 2 was the pinnacle of knowledge and understanding that you seem to think it would be. By and large DAy 2 is always the same nonsense voting anyway because the Day 1 vote patterns don't MEAN anything, like we were talking about during our short discussion about forcing a tie. All Day One ever accomplishes with our random spread out voting is KILLING MORE VILLAGERS, and Day 2 winds up being the same damn thing.

[Blade6119]

Wouldn't that make you think that I'm not a fucking wolf then? I won't take being insulted when what I did was in the best interest of the team -- dead villagers don't DO anything, can't VOTE for anyone.

All you did was delay a lynch until tomorrow, and remove nequa from consideration. So what is your vote tomorrow going to do for us since you think its soo important. Unless your the seer or bodyguard, all you did today was force us to use two days killing you when it could have happened in one. If you are good, you have decreased the time we have to hunt wolves and cost us two night kills we must suffer before we can act on solid evidence.

Explain to me how this is in any way helping the village tyrith.

[Tyrith]

yes they do...they die, and in dying, provide a noble service to the village...we see who voted for you...we see who forced the issue...we see who made the key moves to get a villager dead....with an assinine tie, we dont see shit, and end up in the same shitty situation tomorrow...actually it wont be exactly the same, because we will have given away a villager to the wolves over night without gaining any info from the previous day.

every friggin game i have the same arguement with people about ties...they never help us, they just give the wolves a free day.

If I thought that me dying would have actually provided information of some value, yes, I would agree with you. It's Day One. When has a day one vote, especially one with so little contention, actually provided useful information? Examples please.

[saldana]

Also, are you sure it would have swapped to you and not nequa? This is where my problem arises. You seemed quite against the idea of voting nequa, and then waited until it was too late for anyone to lynch either of you.



i just wanted to reiterate this point to you tyrith....if you had wanted to make a tie, as a villager, you should have done it earlier...let someone else do something to tip their hand...by holding your play til the end, you let the wolves sit back and watch, and you possibly saved one of them in your selfishness. how do you know i wouldnt have switched of you and put nequa on the block....we'll never know because of the way you played.

[Blade6119]

What evidence? Let's see, the only votes were Saldana's vote, which was RANDOM, cronin's vote, which was based off obvious suspicion, and Neuqua's vote, which was PURE SELF PRESERVATION. That's a FUCKTON of evidence, and has been demonstrated by all the OTHER WW games where Day 2 was the pinnacle of knowledge and understanding that you seem to think it would be. By and large DAy 2 is always the same nonsense voting anyway because the Day 1 vote patterns don't MEAN anything, like we were talking about during our short discussion about forcing a tie. All Day One ever accomplishes with our random spread out voting is KILLING MORE VILLAGERS, and Day 2 winds up being the same damn thing.
But it is from those 2 days of supposedly random votes we gain info when we finally do hit a bad guy. We can review their voting records, see who they voted for and which side of lynches they were on.

Now, today tells us nothing as we have no lynch, and tomorrow is going to be a gigantic bandwagon which amounts to a no lynch in terms of information gleaned. You have stripped us from two days of information, and it might be a deciding factor in this game.

[st.cronin]

I agree with sal and Blade that it was a bad play, but I don't neccesarily think it was a WOLF play.

[Tyrith]

All you did was delay a lynch until tomorrow, and remove nequa from consideration. So what is your vote tomorrow going to do for us since you think its soo important. Unless your the seer or bodyguard, all you did today was force us to use two days killing you when it could have happened in one. If you are good, you have decreased the time we have to hunt wolves and cost us two night kills we must suffer before we can act on solid evidence.

Explain to me how this is in any way helping the village tyrith.

Because there's no way in hell you would have acted on solid information tomorrow. The only chance you have ANY solid information tomorrow is if someone gets lucky on a witness tonight, and if THAT happens you still have the same information anyway! _Day One votes are meaningless_. I have seen it over and over when people take minute things in the first day and use them to extract that people are wolves because we don't have anything else to do with our time. Then we extract that into Day Two, someone makes another minute thing, and then we kill another random villager who probably didn't do anything. All the while the numbers of villagers dwindle.

Let me put it this way. Assuming two wolves, and no conversion, me not dying today buys you all a Day 5 phase you wouldn't get otherwise.

[SnDvls]

looks like day 2 will be just as worthless as it looks to be a pile on tyrith and we get no information on it.

[Blade6119]

Because there's no way in hell you would have acted on solid information tomorrow. The only chance you have ANY solid information tomorrow is if someone gets lucky on a witness tonight, and if THAT happens you still have the same information anyway! _Day One votes are meaningless_. I have seen it over and over when people take minute things in the first day and use them to extract that people are wolves because we don't have anything else to do with our time. Then we extract that into Day Two, someone makes another minute thing, and then we kill another random villager who probably didn't do anything. All the while the numbers of villagers dwindle.

Let me put it this way. Assuming two wolves, and no conversion, me not dying today buys you all a Day 5 phase you wouldn't get otherwise.

So what do you think is better about tomorrow now that we did this? Instead of having a 4-3 lynch im assuming would have occured(on who i dont know), we have a bandwagon on you tomorrow. Since you seem to think you doing this is going to gain us soo much, tell me what we gain. A bandwagon certainly tells us nothing, so what do we gain tyrith?

[Tyrith]

i just wanted to reiterate this point to you tyrith....if you had wanted to make a tie, as a villager, you should have done it earlier...let someone else do something to tip their hand...by holding your play til the end, you let the wolves sit back and watch, and you possibly saved one of them in your selfishness. how do you know i wouldnt have switched of you and put nequa on the block....we'll never know because of the way you played.

Because since Neuqua came back no one had any reason at all to switch onto him, and my foul ups from earlier in the day to switch onto me. There was no chance people were going to randomly dogpile on someone who just made a late vote. But me, on the other hand? Would have been dead in a second. I had no way to defend myself.

[saldana]

If I thought that me dying would have actually provided information of some value, yes, I would agree with you. It's Day One. When has a day one vote, especially one with so little contention, actually provided useful information? Examples please.

if you had made the tie earlier, the resulting actions would have been very telling, but you didnt give the opportunity for anything else to happen.

[Tyrith]

I agree with sal and Blade that it was a bad play, but I don't neccesarily think it was a WOLF play.

This I can agree with.

[Tyrith]

Look, I have heard most of the experienced people talk about a pile on, and how tomorrow will be worthless. If you feel that way, then WHY ARE YOU GOING TO CREATE A PILE ON? Do something else! I didn't create some pre-ordained destiny where you all have to vote to kill me tomorrow. Be the good players I know you are and do something else. You have free will, don't be constricted by some nonsense thing you feel like you have to do when you know you won't get anything out of it. Although I've shown today that straying from the mass just gets you killed even though there's no real reason.

[SnDvls]

okay I'm going to play a little devils advocate for a bit -

1) a tie helps us in that it forces the wolves to choose among more people. However, it looks like a sure thing that they won't kill Tyrith.
2) with so few people we had a 30% chance of hitting someone good w/ a special role, yes the wolves have the same shot now, but would have a 33% if we didn't hit a special role at lynch.
3) everyone here would have voted the next highest person to save their own ass. Many times it is someone else voting at the last min. it happened in the last game w/ Bullett and many times the wolves use it to just "miss" a switch to clear themselves too.
4) it gives everyone one more day to play WW :D

[Tyrith]

if you had made the tie earlier, the resulting actions would have been very telling, but you didnt give the opportunity for anything else to happen.

The resulting actions would have been LSG or Dodger or Gram switching onto to me, making me die. Instead you get that LSG, Dodger, or Gram DIDN'T switch onto me when it was very, very obvious they should have. The fact that I didn't have my vote cast was very public, if I recall. All day we were talking about creating a 2 person vote and we have people viewing the thread in the last hour doing nothing? How is that not just as telling?

[Tyrith]

Main thing I proved by doing it like this is that no one was paying attention for the last hour.

[SnDvls]

The resulting actions would have been LSG or Dodger or Gram switching onto to me, making me die. Instead you get that LSG, Dodger, or Gram DIDN'T switch onto me when it was very, very obvious they should have. The fact that I didn't have my vote cast was very public, if I recall. All day we were talking about creating a 2 person vote and we have people viewing the thread in the last hour doing nothing? How is that not just as telling?

the hard part is not everyone knows who was or wasn't on or in the thread it's a he said / she said kind of thing unless they were there too.

I understand where you were coming from and I see where blade and sal are coming from too.

I think we can still get info from this day unless we waste tomorrow too.

[saldana]

Look, I have heard most of the experienced people talk about a pile on, and how tomorrow will be worthless. If you feel that way, then WHY ARE YOU GOING TO CREATE A PILE ON? Do something else! I didn't create some pre-ordained destiny where you all have to vote to kill me tomorrow. Be the good players I know you are and do something else. You have free will, don't be constricted by some nonsense thing you feel like you have to do when you know you won't get anything out of it. Although I've shown today that straying from the mass just gets you killed even though there's no real reason.


do you really have to ask this question?

[st.cronin]

I am willing to consider a different direction than Tyrith tomorrow. It's possible him and Neuqua are both villagers, in which case his "scheme" absolutely did help us.

[Tyrith]

Yeah, you can't really take anything out of the list of people that were in the thread till after I'm dead and you know my allegiance. But it might possibly be useful to you at that time, so there it is.

[Tyrith]

I am willing to consider a different direction than Tyrith tomorrow. It's possible him and Neuqua are both villagers, in which case his "scheme" absolutely did help us.

Thank you for seeing why I might have possibly done it, still be good, and still not be a total asshat.

[SnDvls]

I am willing to consider a different direction than Tyrith tomorrow. It's possible him and Neuqua are both villagers, in which case his "scheme" absolutely did help us.

I agree.
It's not like we're dealing w/ a 20-25 person game w/ 4-5 wolves and 15 "vanilla" roles.
we have 10 villagers, 2 wolves, and 3 known special roles
let's see how the wolves react to tonight and see what tomorrow brings us.

[Blade6119]

Thank you for seeing why I might have possibly done it, still be good, and still not be a total asshat.

I think the only way this scheme of yours works if you somehow knew nequa was good as well, and we have some way of clearing you other then a seer reveal. Both of those seem all but impossible to me, so maybe im missing the view you want me to see. You seemed quite strongly againt nequa being lynched, can i ask why since their was no night 0 so a seer scan is out of the question.

[Blade6119]

I will say tonight should tell us something. The direction they take should be most interesting.

[SnDvls]

I would however suggest to the seer that tyrith is probally not the person to view tonight though. there are too many other unknows and we'll know about tyrith one way or the other in the next 2 days.

[Tyrith]

I think the only way this scheme of yours works if you somehow knew nequa was good as well, and we have some way of clearing you other then a seer reveal. Both of those seem all but impossible to me, so maybe im missing the view you want me to see. You seemed quite strongly againt nequa being lynched, can i ask why since their was no night 0 so a seer scan is out of the question.

Day One kills are gonna be villagers unless there is a total dogpile. Ocassionally they'll be villagers via overt manipulation on the part of the wolves to save their own -- very rare. Usually what will happen is something like this where you can't take anything out of it. I mean, what if neuqua turns up bad eventually? We had no way to know. Only people that voted for him were me, a random, and someone voting for an AFK. Day One kills are useless, we should be saving warm bodies to be killed at night or executed later.

[Tyrith]

I would however suggest to the seer that tyrith is probally not the person to view tonight though. there are too many other unknows and we'll know about tyrith one way or the other in the next 2 days.

Agreed. I'm highly likely to be dead via lynching by the time it matters, and you shouldn't reveal tomorrow under any circumstances other than immediately threat of being lynched.

[st.cronin]

I would however suggest to the seer that tyrith is probally not the person to view tonight though. there are too many other unknows and we'll know about tyrith one way or the other in the next 2 days.

I think it makes the most sense for the seer to scan somebody NOT involved in the tie. The seer's job is not to clear people - it's to find a wolf.

[SnDvls]

I think it makes the most sense for the seer to scan somebody NOT involved in the tie. The seer's job is not to clear people - it's to find a wolf.

basically what I was saying.

with such a mix of players just trying to give some free and open advice.

[Blade6119]

Day One kills are gonna be villagers unless there is a total dogpile.

Thats where i disagree, we have gotten wolves before. The big key for me is even if a wolf is not lynched, if hes up for lynch other wolves have to come in and save him. With you not allowing anyone to decide who to lynch, if you or nequa are bad we wont have any evidence to gain from it.

If you two were tied, and gramat came in and killed you...fine...now say on day 4 nequa dies and comes up bad...don't you think thats information we could have used. Your play prevents that from happening. Knowing who voted on you and nequa is only now useless becuase of your move. If he is a wolf, and someone votes him over you, any wolves on him would likely try to swap off. Its not soo much the lynching of wolves day one tells us to me, its the manuevers made to prevent said lynching of wolves that day 1 can be quite useful for in the future.

[Blade6119]

I think it makes the most sense for the seer to scan somebody NOT involved in the tie. The seer's job is not to clear people - it's to find a wolf.
Yes, id be scanning people who arent going to be lynched soon. With roles revealed upon death, we cant afford to waste seer scans. Especially now with this delay in information.

[Tyrith]

Thats where i disagree, we have gotten wolves before. The big key for me is even if a wolf is not lynched, if hes up for lynch other wolves have to come in and save him. With you not allowing anyone to decide who to lynch, if you or nequa are bad we wont have any evidence to gain from it.

If you two were tied, and gramat came in and killed you...fine...now say on day 4 nequa dies and comes up bad...don't you think thats information we could have used. Your play prevents that from happening. Knowing who voted on you and nequa is only now useless becuase of your move. If he is a wolf, and someone votes him over you, any wolves on him would likely try to swap off. Its not soo much the lynching of wolves day one tells us to me, its the manuevers made to prevent said lynching of wolves that day 1 can be quite useful for in the future.

Blade, Gram could have voted for me anyway. He didn't. It's not like I wasn't telegraphing my vote the entire time. Yes, I wanted to stay alive, because me being alive is another vote you can use against the bad guys, and I'm another warm body. But you also have to realize that from where I sat it seemed extremely unlikely that anyway would vote for Neq over me -- the odds were near zero because since he showed up there was absolutely no reason to vote for him, and I had my "let's provoke blade" incident. So I'd die, and nothing would really be gained from it, except that you'd probably try to burn down whoever broke the tie because tomorrow you'll have nothing else to go on.

[Blade6119]

Blade, Gram could have voted for me anyway. He didn't. It's not like I wasn't telegraphing my vote the entire time. Yes, I wanted to stay alive, because me being alive is another vote you can use against the bad guys, and I'm another warm body. But you also have to realize that from where I sat it seemed extremely unlikely that anyway would vote for Neq over me -- the odds were near zero because since he showed up there was absolutely no reason to vote for him, and I had my "let's provoke blade" incident. So I'd die, and nothing would really be gained from it, except that you'd probably try to burn down whoever broke the tie because tomorrow you'll have nothing else to go on.

I certainly understand the survival instinct, but i do not understand that coupled with you openly stating you didnt want to vote for nequa. You seemed to go out of your way to be against his lynching, which is really quite odd to me as in that situation when its a toss-up id do everything i could to discredit the other party.

Thats where i have a breakdown with your claims about how you did it for survival. You did not try to convince others to vote nequa, you actually did quite the opposite.

We have utterly opposite views about what would be gained from your death today it seems...i think the information is far more valuable then any normal villager, while you seem to think having an extra body is more important. I suppose its a difference in opinion that will never be settled, but like i stated above: I see major cracks in your story(in my opinion) that only add on to the suspicion you garnered today. I just dont understand your claims, when i see actions i feel contradict those exact claims.

[Swaggs]

Even though he seemed to be trying a little too hard to build a case against me today, I am thinking that Tyrith may have just made a selfish play, but not necessarily a wolfish play. I do agree with Blade that it seemed like he was trying a little to hard to not vote for Neuqua, but again, that could just be because he was worrying about self preservation and not giving anyone else a chance to tie.

His play is strange, in that he seems to think that someone else would come in and swing things. On Day 1, no one, good or bad, really wants to get noticed for anything, since it takes so little to get yourself on the chopping block, so it is surprising that he was waiting for someone else to make things happen, rather than tying things up early and hoping someone else would break one way or the other. Again, not the play I would make, but maybe not wolfy.

I am guessing that he will get my vote tomorrow, as there will likely not be any better candidate identified and his moves today are the most damning.

[Izulde]

For me it's a matter of principle. In the absence of any outright evidence that points to a specific person being a wolf, selfish plays like this can and should be punished.

[st.cronin]

For me it's a matter of principle. In the absence of any outright evidence that points to a specific person being a wolf, selfish plays like this can and should be punished.

For me it's a matter of finding those damn keys.

[Lorena]

I'm not sure what to think of Tyrith's last minute vote. I agree with Swaggs and cronin that it might have been a bad villager move, but I don't think a wolf would put himself in the spotlight like he has. If he is an assistant, he has some massive balls to draw so much attention to himself.

I'm interested to hear what some of the more quiet people have to say. Neuqua was awefully quiet and came in towards the end of the day and we haven't heard from oliegirl since her vote on Izulde.

[Lorena]

Oh and Tyrith, I didn't switch my vote because I wanted to see what you were going to do. I never really got a chance to react as it was literally a last minute vote.

Oh well, interesting day and I'll be curious to see who the wolves decide to kill off tonight. Hopefully the bodyguard can successfully block the kill and we learn something, but I doubt we'd be that lucky.

[Blade6119]

Watch them kill me just to make sure ant's version of the dennis green rant comes true. I would honestly enjoy dying tonight just to see what ant comes up with next.

lol, im soo screwed...i made it past day one, so now im just counting the days until i die. Its coming, i just hope i die after doing something heroic like finding a key.

[Lorena]

Watch them kill me just to make sure ant's version of the dennis green rant comes true. I would honestly enjoy dying tonight just to see what ant comes up with next.

lol, im soo screwed...i made it past day one, so now im just counting the days until i die. Its coming, i just hope i die after doing something heroic like finding a key.

Have you checked your own stomach?!? :eek:





I'M JOKING!!
We need to grab that scalpel and start cutting people's stomachs to find this darn key.

[LoneStarGirl]

Well Tyrinth's move definitly sucked, but I dont think it was wolfy. However, I do agree with Izulde that this move should be punished. Unless the seer comes out with some valuable information I still feel we should lynch Tyrinth.

(Unless the kill last night reveals a lot to us, which I doubt it will)

[Lathum]

You slowely wake up and hope that it was all a dream but when you sit up and look around at the dirty abandoaned building you realize it was not. You can't help but feel like you've made no progress and you can only hope the assistants suffered the same problems. YOu all gather in front of the locked door but notice one of you is missing. A quick search of the hallway and discover the body of SNDVLS lying face down in a pool of his own blood just inside his doorway. His throat apparently slit with a blood stained jagged piece of mirror lying next to his body. YOu search his body and discover his wallet, a quick inspection of it reveals an old badge and an expired police ID card. He was the retired detective!!

Day 2 deadline 9:00 PM EST

[Swaggs]

Looks like we lost our seer.

That's pretty devestating for day 1. Now we have no seer and no day 1 lynch (or results to examine).

[st.cronin]

vote Blade

[st.cronin]

To explain: There are very few players who, as wolves, would have targeted SnDvls last night.

[SnDvls]

good luck all

[Izulde]

Vote Tyrith for now at least.

st. cronin, explain what you mean a bit more. I'm off to clas.

[Swaggs]

I'm out until after work, so I will be back around 7:00 PM EST.

[st.cronin]

Vote Tyrith for now at least.

st. cronin, explain what you mean a bit more. I'm off to clas.

What I mean is, Blade likes to take intuitive leaps. I think the wolves made an intuitive leap that SnDvls was the seer.

[Tyrith]

Yeah, I can certainly see what cronin is talking about. SnDvls is a very good player but doesn't have the flash of blade or cronin or saldana. It's an ultra solid lynch...that just managed to screw us, too.

[Tyrith]

For me it's a matter of principle. In the absence of any outright evidence that points to a specific person being a wolf, selfish plays like this can and should be punished.

When you prove I had selfish intent at heart -- other than objectively trying to win the game -- tell me. Until then, I will not stand for being insulted any further. Don't make it personal.

[Lorena]

We lose our seer day 1? Wow, that really freaking sucks, what a stroke of luck by the assistants.

So because of the fact that I'm intuitive and figured you out early in the game hurts me? If you really are a prisoner shouldn't you be thinking more along the lines of "Hmmm, Olie played well last time and somehow figured me out right away - maybe I should do what I can to keep her alive so she can help us win"???? Seems awfully assistant-ish to me...

VOTE IZULDE

Last time she posted in here, it was around 12pm yesterday and last time she was on at all was this morning at 6:32am but yet didn't post anything. She was more vocal last game than she has been so far and has 4 posts. She might be afraid to say the wrong thing to get attention.

Vote Oliegirl

[Lorena]

Food for thought:
------------------------------------------
Who wanted a tie?
- Swaggs (post #69)
- st.cronin (post #70)
- Tyrith (post #72)
------------------------------------------
Neuqua votes:
- Grammaticus (post #47) random vote
- Swaggs (post #111) created tie
- Tyrith (post #145) save own skin

Tyrith votes:
- saldana (post #58) random vote
- st.cronin (post #99) created tie
- Neuqua (post #126) save own skin
-------------------------------------------
After voicing their opinion on the tie strategy, Swaggs mentioned that "we are not looking for a tie today" and "randomly" votes for Neuqua to create the a tie anyway (post #110) (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1276725#post1276725). St.cronin, same thing, but he says "Ok, so a tie is a bad idea. I think it may be worth it, though, to settle on two candidates." (post #81) (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1276622#post1276622) and then votes for Tyrith to create the tie a lot of us didn't want.

Just something to think about. My vote for oliegirl may change if something comes up.

[oliegirl]

We lose our seer day 1? Wow, that really freaking sucks, what a stroke of luck by the assistants.



Last time she posted in here, it was around 12pm yesterday and last time she was on at all was this morning at 6:32am but yet didn't post anything. She was more vocal last game than she has been so far and has 4 posts. She might be afraid to say the wrong thing to get attention.

Vote Oliegirl



The reason I haven't posted much is because (1) I haven't had much to say yet, I'm still new to the game and am trying to figure it all out before I start putting my 2 cents in. (2) We just moved on Thursday and I'm trying to get unpacked and get organized so we can stop living like nomads, and (3) I got bit my our cat Sunday night and am on pain killers that knock me out so I've been going to bed early.

I can assure you I'm a prisoner, and after catching up on everything (I couldn't get it all read this morning b/c I had to get Anthony on the bus) I think that Tyrith is our best bet for lynching at this point.

Do we know for sure that sndvls was the seer or is this an educated guess?

Also, DC, if you go back and look at the last game, I really didn't have anything to say until day 2, so I'm not really any more quiet this game than I was last game.

[Tyrith]

We know for sure that he was the seer.

[Lorena]

He was the retired detective!!

Day 2 deadline 9:00 PM EST

Rules-

Retired Detective: Each night you may select a person to spy on. If you select assistant up to no good you have a 75% chance of discovering their identify but they have a 25% chance of discovering your identity and springing a booby trap on you.

Yup, for sure :(

[oliegirl]

Yup, for sure :(


Yeah, just saw that when I went back and read pg. 1 :(

I don't have any real gut feelings to go on right now, but if I had to vote this instant (which I'm not), I'd vote for Tyrith...his behavior and very last minute vote just look incredibly suspicious and his reasons for doing what he did don't really add up to me.

[Tyrith]

I'm not going to sit here and come up with some nonsense reasons why I should live. But please, for our best interest, don't kill me for the sake of killing me. I like that there ideas being thrown out there today -- that's what we need.

That said, I don't have a lot of good ideas myself right now. Cronin is getting some trust points because it'd be easy for him to keep momentum on me, especially seeing that he voted for me yesterday, but he was looking to figure out why I did the admittedly botched things I did yesterday. Dodger's insight is interesting. I believe that Swaggs voted for Neuqua because he hadn't checked in yet, which is understandable. The votes that didn't come off the randoms when we narrowed it down to two concern me, to a degree, because it is a routine tatctic to dogpile on the perceived loser to prevent antics like what I pulled.

Really the only people I think got through Day 1 with no suspicion for me are cronin, who was trying to create a 2 candidate dialogue by targeting me and had good reason to change to me, and neuqua, who did nothing other than self defense. I'm going to wait for my information again.

[Tyrith]

I don't think I'm going to try to describe my logic any further, because it seems more likely to get me killed harder than accomplish anything. If anyone is interested PM or AIM me after the game because suffice it to say there was a good reason, or a confused mess of good reasons, behind it, it's just confusing.

[Glengoyne]

... (3) I got bit my our cat Sunday night and am on pain killers that knock me out so I've been going to bed early.

...

Do you live with Siegfried and Roy?

Sorry just snooping around.

[oliegirl]

Do you live with Siegfried and Roy?

Sorry just snooping around.

No, but we just moved and brought the cat over on Sunday...she wasn't too happy to see the dog and they got in a fight...I got in the middle and CHOMP! Her tooth into the top of my hand...2 hours at the ER and a tetanus shot later I came home :(

[spleen1015]

LYNCH oliegirl's cat

:D

[Grammaticus]

I re-read the tape recording messge. It says there are 3 keys. Two assistants have them in their stomachs and somebody has a third key "on them". We searched the body of SnDvls and found his wallet, but no key. Does it make sense to cut open his stomach to see if he has the third key. Makes sense that it would be in the same place as the assistants keys. Plus it says the assistants have the "correct" keys. So if SnDvls has a key, and he is not an assistant, then it should not be a "correct" key. I think we need to check everyone's stomack that dies.

Lathum, can we do this?

[oliegirl]

LYNCH oliegirl's cat

:D

Sunday night I would have agreed and given you the rope...but she didn't mean it, she was just freaked out and scared...and I should have known better than to get in the middle of the two of them. Poor cat has been hiding under my bed ever since :(

[st.cronin]

Just some more food for thought - the wolves would not want a tie on day 1. They would want a villager lynched. A tie, and they are also a day behind.

[oliegirl]

Just some more food for thought - the wolves would not want a tie on day 1. They would want a villager lynched. A tie, and they are also a day behind.

True...but if a tie keeps them hidden/safe and us confused for another day, doesn't that also help them?

[st.cronin]

True...but if a tie keeps them hidden/safe and us confused for another day, doesn't that also help them?

Depending on how the vote plays out, yes. I'm just saying that the wolves wouldn't start out the day wanting a tie. They might decide, at a certain point in the voting, that a tie is a good option. But it's extremely unlikely that they would start out planning for a tie.