What would it take?....

[RoyalTen]

If, god forbid (i dont believe in god so im not sure if this really applies, but im sure you get the point), but lets say that bin laden, or whoever, attacks us again, and thousands more die....what would it take to end it? obviously our joke of a "war on terror" didnt work, so what would? does anyone think its possible that it could lead to a full invasion/possible takeover of parts of the middle east? bomb upon bomb dropped until we know its over? something similar to what happens in The Siege (movie with denzel washington and bruce willis where all of the middle eastern ethincity in nyc were placed in a camp).......what would it take to make sure we are safe here in the US?

[bbor]

Y'all can move to Canada....we have lot's of hockey sticks to protect ourselves with.

[mckerney]

Make a proclamation that if anyone fucks with us we bomb mecca, then see if they try and step

[Blackadar]

Originally posted by mckerney
Make a proclamation that if anyone fucks with us we bomb mecca, then see if they try and step

mckerney, I knew I liked you for a reason. But let's replace "bomb" with "nuke".

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by mckerney
Make a proclamation that if anyone fucks with us we bomb mecca, then see if they try and step I'm pretty hacked at mckerney for this. I read this and laughed so loud I woke She Who Must Be Obeyed up. That's not a good thing at 7:15 when she doesn't have to get up until 8:00 or so....

[ACStrider]

Originally posted by SkyDog
I'm pretty hacked at mckerney for this. I read this and laughed so loud I woke She Who Must Be Obeyed up. That's not a good thing at 7:15 when she doesn't have to get up until 8:00 or so....

That's okay, Valentines is coming soon...the holiday where wrongs are forgotten...unless you don't get her EXACTLY what she wants. :D

[scooper]

It's hard to say wether or not the "war on terror" has worked. One of my thoughts following 9/11 and I'm sure many felt the same was that this was just the beginning and I'm sure many felt the same way. Many doomsayers predicted biological weapons in our water, more hijacked planes, even nuclear or dirty bombs being set off in the U.S.

We know for a fact that many members of Al-Queda or other terrorist organizations have been killed or detained. Who's to say some of these were not the next in line to fly a plane into a building? Or has the U.S. or its allies stopped any attacks that have not been publicized for want of keeping us from panicking.

Yours is a good question, though. The war on terrer is definately far from won. I'm not sure if it can ever really be won. But we have to "fight" it. I guess my answer is as long as we are stopping terrorism, we are winning but that doesn't mean the threat will ever cease to exist.

It's a sad and pessimistic answer, but we have a permanent military and intelligence agencies for a reason.

[The Afoci]

Skydog, if She Who Must Be Obeyed is anything like my girlfriend, Osama no longer scares you when she is woke up earlier than she has to be. :)

But seriously, the war on terrorism may not of been a great success, but we did destroy some camps, turned afganastan into a country now that while there is still alot of pro-taliban, they are trying to do what they can. We have also captured/killed a few of the leaders in Al-queda sp? so i wouldn't call it a total failure. I would say any disruption to them is worth it.

[Ben E Lou]

Considering both the strong rhetoric and military actions that we have taken against terrorism, I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that they haven't at least WANTED to strike back against us. It has been 17 months since 9/11/01, and we have yet to see anything like some guy walking into a movie theater on a Friday night and blowing himself up. I strongly believe that they've WANTED to do something like that, but have not been able to make it happen, either because their resources were so decimated, or because they had the resources to conceive a plot, but we've foiled the plot.

[Easy Mac]

There have been the same amount of terrorist attacks since 9/11 as before 9/11.

Does this mean we prevented them just as well prior as we are now, or the threats aren't there, and they are just biding their time as they did pre-9/11. Winning a war you can't see is very subjective, why else do you strike at Iraq? Because they're something people can see, and if you can put a face on it, it becomes easier to fight (and with Bin Laden moving like the wind, he doesn't really have a face).

You can't win the war on terrorism, b/c its a contradiction. You can hope to stop it, but you never know if you can until another attack happens.

I think the only failure there can be is if they don't kill bin laden/al-qaeda. Otherwise, you're never going to know if you've really won.

And yeah, lets nuke the Middle East, brilliant. Lets have fallout all over Europe, Asia, and whatever else is over there. We definitely wont havbe nukes thrown back at us. Thats like saying a renegade militia is a Christian, so lets kill all Christians b/c they're Chrisitans.

[Ben E Lou]

Sheesh...

September 11th raised the bar. Life before 9/11 can NOT be compared to life after 9/11. AFTER we struck back against these people, it becomes incumbent upon the Islamic Jihadists to prove that they haven't been silenced, and they've been unable to do it. Period. The ONLY way that they can show that they are still a force would be to pull off another attack, and they can't.

[Bee]

Sorry, but I don't think comparing the lack of pre 9-11 terrorist attacks against the US to the lack of post 9-11 terrorist attacks makes any sense at all.

It's one thing for terrorists to not attack the US when we are sitting idly on the sidelines, but when we've attacked them as hard as we have since 9-11 the rules change. Like Skydog said above, I find it impossible to believe they have not wanted to attack considering the actions we have taken since 9-11.

IMO, the death of bin laden would be a relatively small victory. The bigger victory is tracking down and destroying the terrorist cells and training camps.

Edit: While gathering my thoughts to post, Skydog beat me to the punch. :D

[Easy Mac]

The bombing in Bali was a terrorist attack, or does that not count?

Why does it have to be bigger and better? Isn't it just enough to stay on the radar and let people know you're there, while plotting in secret, instead of going for the kill immediately after?

And yes, life is the exact same. Republicans and Democrats still bitch, little female singers still dress like whores, sports still rule, the economy continues to drop, Americans are still self involved and live life far too fast. Except now you have a few more sappy songs played on the radio and a lot of war fervor.

It took what, like 2-3 years to pull of 9/11, and you expect them to do it again in 6 months, and expect it to be bigger? The only way to make it bigger is to get a nuke, as as Saddam as shown, that takes years if not decades to do. We haven't won anything, and i think this war will unfortunately show that there are greater risks than Saddam (i.e. the terrorist backlash, I fear it may be 10x as bad as 9/11).

[RoyalTen]

I have to disagree SkyDog, like you said its ONLY been 17 months since 9/11, which in my mind means that they have had 17 months to plot a new plan, something even bigger. Maybe your right, which would be good, but things just arent that easy.

[The Afoci]

For those that say the war on terror is not the way we should go about trying to stop/slow terrorism, what should we do to stop/slow terrorism.

Edited for easy mac, sorry, i didn't really write it how i meant it.

[Senator]

mckerney -

greatness. I am the king of restraint, but I am finding it quite enlightening how much we are disliked around the world. I am about one more negative news piece away from declaring -

"Fine, we export nothing. We import nothing. You don't get our military protecting your piece of shit countries. You don't get one red cent. You don't get our movies, our food, NOTHING. If someone hates us who lives here, we give them a one way ticket to any place they choose. We don't need you; you need us. It's time for some old school isolationism!!"

[Fritz]

Originally posted by RoyalTen
what would it take to make sure we are safe here in the US?

extermination of any threat to our way of life and security.

EDIT: Yes, I mean entire people groups.

[Easy Mac]

I guess you're stirring controversy, b/c no one said its worthless. It's nice to READ posts.

Anyway, its not worthless, but to conclude its success, or if it will be a success, is counterproductive. You'll never know if its a success until another has occurred, at which point you'll know it wasn't.

The best you can do is find whatever you can, and hope thats enough.

[sachmo71]

I agree, Senator. I'll bet someone running on an Isolationist platform in the next election would get a pretty serious look from a lot of voters.

[Bee]

The reasons for terrorists to attack the US have increased exponentially since 9-11 due to our actions, yet terrorist attacks have not increased. I find it difficult to believe that is due to self restraint by religious fanatics.

We have not won the "war" on terrorism and I agree with Easy Mac that it is really not a war that can be won. That does not mean we haven't made significant strides to limit their ability to attack.



Like Senator, I too am getting sick of so much anti-American feelings throughout the world. Perhaps it is time for some good old fashioned isolationism to kick in. Let's see how those who hate us deal with the world when we aren't there to do the dirty work.

[Easy Mac]

but then where would we get our good cars and tv's and dammit I need my canadian bacon.

And bee, i have an intelligent response for you soon, but i got to get into the shower. THank you for a nice, civilized discussion. be back to prove you wrong in a second ;)

[sachmo71]

Originally posted by Fritz
extermination of any threat to our way of life and security.

EDIT: Yes, I mean entire people groups.

Wouldn't a moderate Islamic influence be more productive? I don't know if "influence" is the proper term, but what if the moderate Muslims were able to exert enough influence that it would eliminate most of the threat of these radicals?

[Bee]

be back to prove you wrong in a second

Easy Mac, are you my wife? You sound a lot like her. ;)

[RoyalTen]

Although the whole isolation idea sounds great, you know it could, or would never happen. Sure we dont know if the war on terror has worked, some would assume it has since there have been no terror attacks here in the US since, but like SkyDog said, its only been 17 months, who knows how long it took to plan 9/11. But if there was to be a major attack on the US, i would see no problem in going to the Middle East and taking over much of it. Sure we thought our imperialism (Sp?) days were over, but we also thought the days of not feeling safe in our own country were over also after we dropped a couple nukes on Japan. Point is, i think that would make a HUGE impact on the war on terror.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by RoyalTen
I have to disagree SkyDog, like you said its ONLY been 17 months since 9/11, which in my mind means that they have had 17 months to plot a new plan, something even bigger.
But why wait 17 months? As distasteful as it seems, put yourself in their shoes. You want to cripple America, to crush it's economy and terrorize it's children. What would you do? You'd want to hit again, as quickly as possible, to show that you could. Maybe not the next day or the next week, but certainly within the next year.

In the days after 9/11, Americans were terrified that there was a new reality, that attacks would come often and without warning. Seventeen months later... nothing. This despite repeated promises from Bin Laden et al that the next attack was coming, any day now, would be even worse, etc.

I'll be honest. I'm starting to think that Al Qaeda isn't a significant threat to carry out a major attack any more. Some suicide bombings, sure. A "dirty bomb" that would cause more panic than real damage, maybe. But not another 9/11.

Maybe it's due the war on terrorism, maybe it's due to heightened security, or maybe, just maybe, 9/11 was just a fluke. That's no consolation to those who lost friends and family, of course, and I think all of us lost something that day. But at the risk of trivializing one of the most horrific events of our lifetimes, even a blind squirrel finds a nut some times. Maybe Al Qaeda is just a blind squirrel, and always was.

[sachmo71]

Originally posted by RoyalTen
Point is, i think that would make a HUGE impact on the war on terror.

You are right. It would probably ignite every muslim country in the world against us.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by sachmo71
Wouldn't a moderate Islamic influence be more productive? I don't know if "influence" is the proper term, but what if the moderate Muslims were able to exert enough influence that it would eliminate most of the threat of these radicals?

productive how?

No, people will always hate us because of who we are, and what we have. Rather than build themselves up they would tear us down. Complete extermination of threats is the only way to be certain.

[RoyalTen]

That could be very possible MapleLeafs, and i sure hope it is. But who knows if they are just playing mind games, sending videos out, getting us worried as whats gonna happen next, and when. But maybe not. And to tell you guys the truth, i dont think 9/11 was all that big of a masterminded plan anyway, to me it seems rather simple for a group of idiots to hijack a plane. Really, whats so big about that, you buy tickets, get on the plane, take it over. The way i see it, 90% of the idiots with the balls to actually do it, probably could.

[Anrhydeddu]

I think the one thing that the peace activists and the global family crowd is forgetting or at least ignoring, is the amount of pure hatred radical Muslims have against us (those with a Judeo-Christian heritage). We seem to be content with them as long as they behave themselves (as we did prior to 9/11) but nothing can be negotiated or compromised when one side is driven by hatred and evil.

[Bee]

Maple Leafs,

I pretty much agree. It would have been a powerful statement by Bin Laden if he could have attacked the US (in the US) while we were carrying out our military action in Afghanistan for instance. A series of suicide bombings in major US cities would have really scared American citizens and made us think about whether or not what we did was ever going to make a difference. Nothing like that occured and I have to think it was more due to our impacting their abilities to do so, than their "holding back" for something bigger.

[RoyalTen]

Maybe sachmo, but maybe not. Many middle eastern people hate us bc they dont really know whats going on, all they know is what their government tells them, and they will tell them whatever they want to make them hate us even more. Why do you think they were all dancing in the streets after 9/11? They did that because to them, from what they have seen on their tv, or told by their government, is that the US is the devil and they have been weakened, my bet is if they knew what was really happening, they may even try to revolt against their own government. I think a possible takeover of some of the middle east will cripple al qaeda and any other terrorists.

[Easy Mac]

Not to refute what you say Anrhy, b/c I ageree with you.

But couldn't the exact same be said of the extreme Christians/Jews. Look at Bob Jones, who hates anyone who isn't extreme southern Baptist. Look at Israel, the hatred goes both ways woth them and Palestine.

Blame has to fall on both sides in terms of illogical hatred.

And Bee, you only wish I were your wife

[Anrhydeddu]

All Christians can and should hate sin (which separates us from a personal relationship with God) but the true motivation should be love, just as God has loved us. Here is the difference: we will pray for them to accept God's love as shown through His Son - they will pray to destroy us.

[Bee]

Originally posted by RoyalTen
That could be very possible MapleLeafs, and i sure hope it is. But who knows if they are just playing mind games, sending videos out, getting us worried as whats gonna happen next, and when. But maybe not. And to tell you guys the truth, i dont think 9/11 was all that big of a masterminded plan anyway, to me it seems rather simple for a group of idiots to hijack a plane. Really, whats so big about that, you buy tickets, get on the plane, take it over. The way i see it, 90% of the idiots with the balls to actually do it, probably could.

I think the complexity of the attack on 9-11 was the training of the terrorist pilots to learn how to fly, learn how to recognize the targets from the air and to be skilled enough to fly into them.

I agree there wasn't much "planning" necessary for the attacks, but there was quite a bit of "preparing" that was required.

Most potential attacks that have been discussed by experts since then would require much less "preparing", which is one of the reasons I don't see the reasoning behind the terrorists waiting to carry them out.

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
All Christians can and should hate sin (which separates us from a personal relationship with God) but the true motivation should be love, just as God has loved us. Here is the difference: we will pray for them to accept God's love as shown through His Son - they will pray to destroy us.

But extreme Christians pray for the death of Muslims. Not all Muslims hate Christians, extreme ones just make for better news stories. You think Pat Robertson hasn't called for the death of Muslims, Bob Jones? Not everyone prays as morally as you hope, b/c thats not haow the world is. We'd like to think we're all better than the Muslims, but we all have bad apples (no Biblical pun intended.)

[Bee]

Can you post a link where Pat Robertson called for the death of all Muslims?

[ColtCrazy]

I would agree with isolationism, but at this point I don't think its practical. We have our hands in too many cookie jars to pull out now.

[Anrhydeddu]

Easy Mac, they have not called for the death of Muslims. Robertson has spoken out against the evils of the jihad, just like I and other have here. Do you have proof? On the other hand, a Muslim cleric did call for the death of three US religious leaders for speaking out against Islam.

Here's something to read, if you wish
http://cbn.org/SpiritualLife/understandingislam/Former_Muslim_Reza_Safa_Talks_with_Pat_Robertson_About%20Islam.asp

By the way, I am definitely not a fan of Robertson or the CBN. I believe his heart is in the right place but his methods and style is wrong.

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
But extreme Christians pray for the death of Muslims. Not all Muslims hate Christians, extreme ones just make for better news stories. You think Pat Robertson hasn't called for the death of Muslims, Bob Jones? Not everyone prays as morally as you hope, b/c thats not haow the world is. We'd like to think we're all better than the Muslims, but we all have bad apples (no Biblical pun intended.)

There is a huge difference however. How many suicide bomings has Bob Jones sponsored? How many buildings has Jerry Falwell blown up? Do you have any proof that Pat Robertson has called for the death of anyone? I'm not a fan of any of these three guys (I agree with Buc... err... Anrhydeddu that they want to do right, but go about it entirely incorrectly), but surely you have to see the difference between extremist Christians and extremist Muslims.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I believe his heart is in the right place but his methods and style is wrong.

I don't even believe his heart is in the right place, I think he's a con man myself but I don't think he would call for the death of all Muslims.

[Fritz]

This would seem to create nothing but self loathing

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
All Christians can and should hate sin

[Anrhydeddu]

That's where forgiveness comes in.

[Airhog]

Mulslims vs christians. Been going on since the beginning of time. They say things like: My god is better than your god. Or my god can beat your god at one on one. Now we all know that allah has got some skillz on the basketball court. But I just dont think he can take god on the court.

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by Airhog
Mulslims vs christians. Been going on since the beginning of time. They say things like: My god is better than your god. Or my god can beat your god at one on one. Now we all know that allah has got some skillz on the basketball court. But I just dont think he can take god on the court.

Are you saying Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball??? :D

[JHandley]

Originally posted by Hammer755
There is a huge difference however. How many suicide bomings has Bob Jones sponsored? How many buildings has Jerry Falwell blown up? Do you have any proof that Pat Robertson has called for the death of anyone? I'm not a fan of any of these three guys (I agree with Buc... err... Anrhydeddu that they want to do right, but go about it entirely incorrectly), but surely you have to see the difference between extremist Christians and extremist Muslims.

Replace Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell with the Ku Klux Klan and that's what we're up against. The KKK is our version of the Islamic extremists.

I'm not comparing Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell to the KKK, simply getting the discussion back to apples to apples. The Islamic extremists are a global KKK clan.

Back to the original topic, there's no way to exterminate evil in the world. That's not to say that we shouldn't fight against it, simply an acknowledgment that the fight is neverending.

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by JHandley
Replace Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell with the Ku Klux Klan and that's what we're up against. The KKK is our version of the Islamic extremists.

I'm not comparing Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell to the KKK, simply getting the discussion back to apples to apples. The Islamic extremists are a global KKK clan.

Back to the original topic, there's no way to exterminate evil in the world. That's not to say that we shouldn't fight against it, simply an acknowledgment that the fight is neverending.

I agree that using the KKK would provide a better analogy than Falwell and Jones, but even the KKK is not on the same level as Islamic extremists. While still extremely ignorant, the KKK has turned from an organization of violence to largely one of idealogy. I'm not saying they still don't any commit violent acts, but not on the scale they once did, and not nearly on the same level as the terrorist attacks.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by Fritz
productive how?

No, people will always hate us because of who we are, and what we have. Rather than build themselves up they would tear us down. Complete extermination of threats is the only way to be certain.

You think that our enemies hate us because of who we are and what we have? It has nothing to do with U.S. Government policies or actions?

So you are in favor of extermination of threats to us? Pre-emptively? Who falls under this category, in your estimation?

[Fritz]

Certainly, it has everything to do with our policies and actions. these are a reflection of who we are.

Anyone our leadership views as a threat to US security or way of life. There may be less drastic means, but none that would be as certain to work.

[astralhaze]

Are you in favor of said extermination, or are you just pointing out that it would be the only way to rid ourselves of them, without a value judgement?

[Fritz]

I honestly feel it would be the only way to "make sure we are safe here in the US." I would not be capable of such an act and am willing to live with risks.

[Qwikshot]

Here is the problem...

there is always going to be some form of extremism. Who is to say that the North Koreans aren't Communist Extremists?!? Who is to say that christians who bomb and kill doctors/people at abortion clinics aren't in the same category as Muslim extremists with explosives stuck to them.

The other problem is not just Christian/vs Muslims, as it is Western vs Middle Eastern ideology. Iranians just had a crackdown on Valentine's day cards because it is a Western tradition that could threaten to erode the "values", and that people of the opposite sex showing public displays of affection is taboo.

There is always going to be a fringe group who thinks not enough has been done, or their way is the right way. I am positive though that if Muslims extremists began to conduct suicide bombing in the U.S. there would be a massive profiling, massive sweeps, and massive retaliation for any supporters of the extremists.

What would weaken the Muslim extremist? These are people that believe that death is better than life (consider some of these peoples living conditions). You have to enhance the living conditions of those regions (like Afghanistan but even more strictly regimented) one that gives women the right to speak, to help the poor, to have a better judicial system, etc. Massive consumerism helps as well, people who live in a world that is stable, tend to want to keep it that way. They want to be able to go to the store and buy whatever, without fear of fundamentalists complaining or worse, killing them.
Sort of like U.S. rebuilding of Japan, but Japan was an island, the Middle East is surrounded by tension.

I read something about threatening Mecca, doing that pits the U.S. against every Muslim, almost the same as threatening to blow up the Vatican.

It's going to get alot uglier before its get better, but I will say this, if a nuclear attack does occur on U.S. soil and is the work of extremists, all bets are off, anything can happen...from massive nuclear attacks, to the new crusade against the Middle East (leading to colonialization of those countries).

You will never get rid of the threat, you can only resolve the in the best manner possible.

[Anrhydeddu]

I think the hatred is more fundamental than policies. We built this country on Judeo-Christian principles for the most part and not on the Quran. In other words, principles like freedom of speech, freedom of worship, and subsequently, suffrage are intolerable to fundamentalist Islamic regimes. That is why countries like the Saudis are lukewarm at best on Iraq because as much as they fear Saddam, they are afraid of democratic principles even more.