Another reason why rich people are annoying

[ISiddiqui]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/13/nyregion/13private.html?hp&ex=1163480400&en=8a92843ed8aa356b&ei=5094&partner=homepage


November 13, 2006

<NYT_HEADLINE version="1.0" type=" ">Leaving the City for the Schools, and Regretting It </NYT_HEADLINE>

<NYT_BYLINE version="1.0" type=" ">By WINNIE HU (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/h/winnie_hu/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
</NYT_BYLINE><NYT_TEXT>
TARRYTOWN, N.Y. — Mimi and Gol Ophir left behind their Riverside Drive apartment with views of the Hudson a decade ago to move to the Westchester suburbs, reluctantly trading comfort and convenience for what they believed would be better public schools for their growing family.

Only the suburban bargain the Ophirs thought they were getting turned out to be no bargain at all. They chose the Yorktown school system, a relatively well-off district whose students consistently outscore their peers on state tests. But the Ophirs came to view the schools as uninspiring and unresponsive, and now they pay $51,000 a year for their children, 11-year-old Dylan and 9-year-old Sabrina, to attend the private Hackley School here — on top of $23,000 annually in property taxes.

“That’s the whole point of moving to Westchester: you pay the high taxes, but you get the good schools,” Mrs. Ophir, 43, a full-time mother who formerly worked as a lawyer, said with anger and frustration. “That’s the tradeoff, I thought.”

Like the Ophirs, many New Yorkers with the means to do so flee the city when they have children, seeing the suburbs as a way to stay committed to public education without compromising their standards for safety and academics.

Yet a small but growing number of such parents are abandoning even some of the top-performing public schools in the region. In school districts like Scarsdale, N.Y., and Montclair, N.J., where high test scores and college admission rates have built national reputations and propelled real estate prices upward, these demanding families say they were disappointed by classes that were too crowded, bare-bones arts and sports programs, and an emphasis on standardized testing rather than creative teaching.

Some are private school graduates themselves who, try as they might, feel guilty giving their offspring anything less. Others were spoiled by their children’s experiences in private school in preschool or the early grades before leaving the city. Still others simply found that public school programs in suburbia did not live up to their promise.

So they forsake city living to wind up shouldering the double burden of high taxes and tuition bills. Or they end up moving back to Manhattan or commuting with children in tow to the city’s private schools.

“It was not part of our plan at all, and I’m not sure how sustainable it is,” said Tracy Fauver, of Bedford, N.Y., whose three children attend the Rippowam Cisqua School in the town; tuition there runs from $17,500 to more than $26,000 per student. She said her husband’s Ford Focus had become something of a joke parked alongside his co-workers’ Mercedes-Benzes and BMWs, as the family has forgone fancy cars and vacations to afford the tuition.

Headmasters and admissions officers at more than a dozen prestigious private schools in the region — including Rye Country Day in Westchester, the Lawrenceville School in New Jersey and the Westminster School in Simsbury, Conn. — say they have seen steady increases in applications in recent years. Private-school placement consultants in New York City and Westchester track similar trends: one such company, Manhattan Private School Advisors, now counts 325 suburban families among its clients, more than three times as many as three years ago, while another, Abacus Guide Educational Consulting, gets five calls a week from Westchester families, compared to one a week two years ago.

“In the past, it used to be calls from some less desirable school districts in Westchester,” said Emily Glickman, the founder of Abacus Guide. “Now it is places with crème de la crème school districts like Bronxville, Larchmont, Mamaroneck, Pelham.”

According to a survey by the National Association of Independent Schools, applications at a random sample of 14 private schools in the New York suburbs were up to an average of 334 per school in 2005, from 250 a decade earlier, an increase of 34 percent; nationally, there was no such change among the more than 900 schools surveyed. At the 55 area schools submitting data in both years, enrollment jumped 16.4 percent.

“There’s no question that there is greater interest: more people are calling and asking questions and coming to open houses,” said John R. Johnson, headmaster of the Riverdale Country School in the Bronx, which draws a large number of its students from Westchester and New Jersey.

To be sure, many suburban families are satisfied with their public schools. Several school superintendents and teachers in Westchester and northern New Jersey said that relatively few of their students were leaving; rather, enrollment has increased in recent years, they said. (Census data show that the number of school-age children in area suburbs has grown 14 percent over the past decade.)

In Chappaqua, N.Y., for instance, Superintendent David Fleishman said the 10 students who typically transfer to private schools from his district each year were offset by an equal number of private-school students transferring in. “I think people are generally quite satisfied with the level of education and the learning environment we provide here,” he said.
But at the Parents League of New York, which represents families whose children attend private schools, a popular forum titled “To Stay or Go?” enlists speakers who debunk the notion of a suburban utopia by emphasizing the high property taxes outside the city and highlighting some public schools’ large class sizes and limited curriculums.

Even families who carefully research the suburban public schools can find themselves disappointed once classes start.

When Stephanie and Pierre Percy moved in 2004 to New Windsor, N.Y., in Orange County, the schools were a deciding factor. Mrs. Percy said she was told that the district provided buses for students in after-school programs, and would soon offer a full-day kindergarten. But by the time the family moved in, she said, the after-school buses had been eliminated amid budget cuts, and the plans to expand kindergarten hours had been scratched.

Because the Percys work in Manhattan — she as an executive assistant at Citigroup, he as an accountant — they ended up hiring taxis to take their teenage sons home from soccer practices. As Mrs. Percy puts it, she was “sold a bag of chips.”

They sent their daughter, also named Stephanie, to a private kindergarten near their home, then enrolled her in first grade at the Claremont Preparatory School in Lower Manhattan this fall. Now mother and daughter leave at 6:10 a.m. to take the first of two trains into Manhattan, and do not return until 7:15 p.m.

“If I could have utilized the school, I would have been able to save a little money, but who could?” Mrs. Percy said. “In retrospect, I would have picked another school district.”

Many parents said they were stunned at how poorly even some well-regarded public schools compared with private schools. They complained about what they considered rigid curriculums, excessive standardized testing and tight budgets that allow for few elective classes and limited foreign language choices. And they said the public schools, powerless to choose who fills the desks, often had less motivated students.

John Lent, 53, a Manhattan publisher who attended boarding school, said he could not deny his sons, Will and Charlie, the same opportunity. So even though Mr. Lent moved to Pelham, in Westchester, for the schools and served on the school board in the mid-1990s, his sons left a public system that he still believes is very good to finish at the Westminster School in Connecticut.

“It’s the benefits and resources above and beyond Pelham,” he said. “No matter how much you tax the property owners.”

Other parents found the teaching in their public schools unimaginative. Susan Drews, 49, who lives in Yorktown Heights, in Westchester, said that art in the first grade at her son’s public school, for instance, involved “half-baked projects” like gold-sprayed macaroni glued to paper plates. “People went through the motions, they could claim there was an art program, but I didn’t feel it was very rich,” she said.

In contrast, Mrs. Drews said that her son, Sam, now 12, had become a passionate learner at Rippowam Cisqua, where teachers have encouraged his curiosity through projects like building an arch and studying rocks and bones found nearby.

Other families say they were satisfied with the academics at their public schools, but concerned about the social environment.

Diane Morash, 42, said she switched her three teenage daughters to the Pingry School, in northern New Jersey, after the oldest, Katie, a straight-A student who was not into clothes or makeup, became excluded from social cliques at her public school. Mrs. Morash said that complaining to officials there did not help, but that at Pingry, the headmaster once summoned every fifth-grade girl to his office to say that malicious gossiping was not acceptable under the school’s honor code.

“That just wasn’t going to happen in the public school — it wasn’t a priority,” she said. “Whereas the private school nipped it in the bud because at Pingry, it’s not just the education, it’s the whole person they’re trying to develop.”

Private school was not part of the Ophirs’ plan when they moved to Cortlandt Manor, in the high-performing Yorktown Central School District, which spends $15,630 per student, compared to an average of $13,826 statewide. Last year, fourth graders in the district significantly outperformed their peers on state tests, with 96 percent passing in math and 86 percent in language arts.

Given the district’s reputation, Mrs. Ophir said, she was taken aback when Dylan, who learned the alphabet at an early age, had not progressed any further after a year in the public kindergarten. Mrs. Ophir said the teacher largely ignored him because he was ahead of the other students.

“He didn’t learn anything — I was a neurotic mess,” she said. “He was developing all sorts of bad habits. He thought school was playtime. He didn’t want to apply himself.”

Mrs. Ophir kept Dylan in the public schools, hoping things would improve. He attended a one-hour-a-week session for gifted and talented students, but Mrs. Ophir said she was unimpressed with the teacher.

Vincent S. Ziccolella, the interim superintendent of the Yorktown district, said he did not understand the parents’ complaints. “Most of the people here are very satisfied with the school system, and they support the schools,” he said, adding that he frequently received calls from parents praising the schools.

But eventually, Mrs. Ophir turned to Hackley, a school of 830 whose rambling Tudor- and Gothic-style buildings are likened by students to Hogwarts Academy in the “Harry Potter” books. Dylan spent two years on the waiting list before entering fourth grade in 2004.

When it came time for Sabrina to begin school, Mrs. Ophir recalled, her husband told her, “I can’t go through another year of kindergarten with you.” So Sabrina enrolled at Hackley from the start.

Are you fucking kidding me?! These rich types, who went to private school themselves, move to the suburbs because of the great public schools they hear about and then are dissapointed because they aren't like private schools?! They complain that they are too crowed, don't have great arts or sports programs, and teach to the test? HELLO, they are still going to be public schools. No matter how good they are, they still aren't going to have the money to compete with schools that ask for $20,000 per kid and can be highly selective.

These people just piss me off. I mean how utterly clueless do you have to be to assume that these suburban public schools will be just like super rich private schools? Talk about being out of touch... argh!

</NYT_TEXT>

[st.cronin]

It's annoying that parents care about their kids education?

[wade moore]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/13/nyregion/13private.html?hp&ex=1163480400&en=8a92843ed8aa356b&ei=5094&partner=homepage



Are you fucking kidding me?! These rich types, who went to private school themselves, move to the suburbs because of the great public schools they hear about and then are dissapointed because they aren't like private schools?! They complain that they are too crowed, don't have great arts or sports programs, and teach to the test? HELLO, they are still going to be public schools. No matter how good they are, they still aren't going to have the money to compete with schools that ask for $20,000 per kid and can be highly selective.

These people just piss me off. I mean how utterly clueless do you have to be to assume that these suburban public schools will be just like super rich private schools? Talk about being out of touch... argh!



I don't read anywhere in there (granted i skimmed some pieces) where it says they expect them to be exactly like the private schools.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't read anywhere in there (granted i skimmed some pieces) where it says they expect them to be exactly like the private schools.

The fact that they are bitching about overcrowded classrooms, arts and sports programs that were bare-bones, and teaching to the standarized test instead of creative teaching, pared with:

Many parents said they were stunned at how poorly even some well-regarded public schools compared with private schools. They complained about what they considered rigid curriculums, excessive standardized testing and tight budgets that allow for few elective classes and limited foreign language choices. And they said the public schools, powerless to choose who fills the desks, often had less motivated students.

I mean... its like they had no idea what a public school was like. I mean this is basic stuff for public schools. The parents want small classrooms, robust arts and sports programs, creative teaching (not standarized testing stuff), foriegn language choices, elective classes... that is expecting these schools to be private schools. They aren't.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Actually, there are occasionally public schools that I would think are at least competitive with at least mid-range private schools.

For an example that you & I would both recognize, I'd say that there are at least a few public schools in Gwinnett County that might overall provide a comparable educational experience to the median quality private schools in the state (say like some of the Macon area private schools or the smaller private schools outside of Cobb & Fulton counties).

Based almost entirely of what I know about the tuition costs at some of the private schools in Georgia and accounting for the higher cost of living I would expect in that part of NY, I think some of the schools cited in this article are more in the upper-middle range of private schools there instead of the creme de la creme (since some of our top pvt schools are in the $16k to $20k range mentioned for some of the ones in the article).

I won't argue that they had totally realistic expectations, just that maybe they aren't quite as far out of line as your initial impression.

[cuervo72]

Maybe Wade, but when they complain the "art program isn't very rich" or that the school administration isn't bending over backwards to make sure their plain-assed daughter is accepted with the "in" crowd - feh.

[wade moore]

Maybe Wade, but when they complain the "art program isn't very rich" or that the school administration isn't bending over backwards to make sure their plain-assed daughter is accepted with the "in" crowd - feh.

Fair point.

I think these parents have some issues, but I just don't think that Isiddiqui really hit on the right ones.

These complaints are ones that many parents have. And are very valid, somehow these people are bad because they decide to do something about it and put their kids in private school? That's what I have a problem with.

They heard these schools were great, they moved for their kids to go there, they didn't meet their standards, so they'll pulling them out to private school.

Sounds like good parenting to me.

Keep in mind I went to public school my whole life, my fiancee is a public school teacher, and my children will likely go to public school.

[ISiddiqui]

Actually, there are occasionally public schools that I would think are at least competitive with at least mid-range private schools.

For an example that you & I would both recognize, I'd say that there are at least a few public schools in Gwinnett County that might overall provide a comparable educational experience to the median quality private schools in the state (say like some of the Macon area private schools or the smaller private schools outside of Cobb & Fulton counties).

Based almost entirely of what I know about the tuition costs at some of the private schools in Georgia and accounting for the higher cost of living I would expect in that part of NY, I think some of the schools cited in this article are more in the upper-middle range of private schools there instead of the creme de la creme (since some of our top pvt schools are in the $16k to $20k range mentioned for some of the ones in the article).

I won't argue that they had totally realistic expectations, just that maybe they aren't quite as far out of line as your initial impression.

I won't argue that I may have overdone it ;). But, I'd imagine even Gwinnett county public schools don't have the resources to make the art program much more than 'bare bones' and aren't offering scores of foriegn language classes and electives. I'm sure they also teach to the test and are somewhat crowded.

It seems the complaints generated by these parents are really, really silly to apply to public schools, no matter HOW good they are. No public school has the ability to limit class sizes when the surrounded area has an increase in school age population. Hardly any public school has great art programs. The vast majority of public schools, no matter how good, teach somewhat to the test, since a lot of funding is tied to standarized tests these days. Most public schools have more rigid cirriculum than most private schools, mostly because of state standards.

The reason private schools can be more flexible and creative is because they get more money per pupil and their hands are not as tied as public schools.

To assume these public school could replicate the private school experience is naivety of the strongest kind and just increadibly out of touch.

[wade moore]

I won't argue that I may have overdone it ;). But, I'd imagine even Gwinnett county public schools don't have the resources to make the art program much more than 'bare bones' and aren't offering scores of foriegn language classes and electives. I'm sure they also teach to the test and are somewhat crowded.

It seems the complaints generated by these parents are really, really silly to apply to public schools, no matter HOW good they are. No public school has the ability to limit class sizes when the surrounded area has an increase in school age population. Hardly any public school has great art programs. The vast majority of public schools, no matter how good, teach somewhat to the test, since a lot of funding is tied to standarized tests these days. Most public schools have more rigid cirriculum than most private schools, mostly because of state standards.

The reason private schools can be more flexible and creative is because they get more money per pupil and their hands are not as tied as public schools.

To assume these public school could replicate the private school experience is naivety of the strongest kind and just increadibly out of touch.

Do you doubt that the public schools try to make it sound like they're as good as the private schools? It sounds like these parents had some expectations that they got from somewhere - I wouldn't be surprised if it was from the school themselves, or from their press releases, etc. as the case may be.

[ISiddiqui]

These complaints are ones that many parents have. And are very valid, somehow these people are bad because they decide to do something about it and put their kids in private school? That's what I have a problem with.

They heard these schools were great, they moved for their kids to go there, they didn't meet their standards, so they'll pulling them out to private school.

It's the fact that when they heard the public schools were great that they expected it to be akin to some sort of posh private school where they have to pay $20k for their kids to get in. It just is a total lack of knowing how even most the upper middle class lives in the US.

[ISiddiqui]

Do you doubt that the public schools try to make it sound like they're as good as the private schools? It sounds like these parents had some expectations that they got from somewhere - I wouldn't be surprised if it was from the school themselves, or from their press releases, etc. as the case may be.

Dealing with people that complain on a regular basis (though over pensions and healthcare, rather than schooling ;)), I have little doubt that they are exaggerating what the public schools told them. Or they just heard they were great public schools and that was all they knew.

[Subby]

It's annoying that parents care about their kids education?
Not sure that is always what is going on, though.

[wade moore]

It's the fact that when they heard the public schools were great that they expected it to be akin to some sort of posh private school where they have to pay $20k for their kids to get in. It just is a total lack of knowing how even most the upper middle class lives in the US.

Again, I don't think they're expecting it to be EXACTLY the same.. just that it was more than it what it is...

*shrug*...

This seems like an attempt at good parenting to me, so I'm a bit annoyed by the slam on them... for as many parents that won't even read to their elementary school children at night, to be coming down on folks that moved just to try and improve their kids education, then when that didn't work are willing to spend $20k a year to fix the problem is just much sillier than these parents complaining to me and shows a complete lack of knowledge of how hard it is to get parents that care.

[Klinglerware]

Knowing many people who went to private school for the entire course of their education, I would have to say that ISiddiqui makes a fair point--many people who went to private schools themselves may not really know what public schools are really like (even the good ones) and how they ought to compare to private school...

[wade moore]

Knowing many people who went to private school for the entire course of their education, I would have to say that ISiddiqui makes a fair point--many people who went to private schools themselves may not really know what public schools are really like (even the good ones) and how they ought to compare to private school...

and vice versa.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But, I'd imagine even Gwinnett county public schools don't have the resources to make the art program much more than 'bare bones' and aren't offering scores of foriegn language classes and electives.

Fair warning: I don't have the foggiest idea how well these offerings are taught, I can only look at what offerings they have. I'm also not at all familiar whether only one school in the system offers certain things or if each HS has the full slate

That said though, you can tell me how you feel like this stacks up. By my way of thinking, there's quite a bit there & it's competitive with most of the private schools I'm familiar with, exceeding the majority of them at least in depth & breadth except perhaps for the top 2 or 3.

From their curriculum info at http://www.gwinnett.k12.ga.us
(These all appear to be high school level courses, as there are different lists for middle school grades)

7 levels of Latin
6 levels of French
7 levels of German
7 levels of Spanish
5 electives of Dance
7 electives of "Music"
5 electives of "Orchestra"
5 electives of "Theatre Arts"
14 electives of "Visual Arts"
5 electives of "Choral Music"
3 electives of "Band"
10 electives of "Marketing" (from sports marketing classes to fashion mktg)
8 electives of Video Production

And that just the ones the jumped at me as being above & beyond what I perceive as the norm, there's other stuff if you want to sift through it.

As you probably know, I'm pretty low on the list of people who will defend much about public school over private, but I have to admit that if I saw that list of offerings I would think that it was competitive, at least on the surface (which is where I suspect some of the parents got themselves disappointed, they didn't dig quite deep enough)

edit to add: For clarity's sake, this list applies to an area of metro Atlanta that I believe might be at least remotely comparable to the one in NY that the original article is talking about. If anything, I would expect that it's below the level of expectations in that part of New York, but it was easy enough for me to find just to illustrate the lines I was thinking along.

[ISiddiqui]

This seems like an attempt at good parenting to me, so I'm a bit annoyed by the slam on them... for as many parents that won't even read to their elementary school children at night, to be coming down on folks that moved just to try and improve their kids education, then when that didn't work are willing to spend $20k a year to fix the problem is just much sillier than these parents complaining to me and shows a complete lack of knowledge of how hard it is to get parents that care.

Never said they don't care about their kids, but the assumptions of how public schooling works is really off the wall for me. Maybe instead of just rich people, I should have exorted Manhattenites because of their expectations. I was just getting angry reading this, and I'm usually not one to get too angry hearing about elitist behavior, just seeing how out of touch they were with most Americans and their expectations of public schools.

[Passacaglia]

One should point out, though, that as good little liberals, these people are probably against standardized testing for public schools in the first place.

[JonInMiddleGA]

An odd bit of trivia about one of the schools mentioned in the article (Hackely)
Among its alums: Chris Berman ('73) and Keith Olberman ('75)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackley_School

[ISiddiqui]

That said though, you can tell me how you feel like this stacks up. By my way of thinking, there's quite a bit there & it's competitive with most of the private schools I'm familiar with, exceeding the majority of them at least in depth & breadth except perhaps for the top 2 or 3...(snip)

Wow.. I'm actually impressed. You make a good point as to how much is actually taught. Even at college (public - Rutgers), we had some interesting classes listed in the directory that hadn't been taught in 10 years. I'd assume high schools would have even greater a problem in that regard.

And perhaps you are correct that perhaps parents saw the list of classes, but didn't see how often they were taught and were disappointed that way. Though I'm not sure the public schools in the suburbs actually offered that or not (could be, I just don't know).

Though I wonder... how can you go through 7 'levels' of a language in only 4 years? And how much time is there for elective classes? I know in my public school we had space for 1, maybe 2, elective classes a semester.

[wade moore]

Never said they don't care about their kids, but the assumptions of how public schooling works is really off the wall for me. Maybe instead of just rich people, I should have exorted Manhattenites because of their expectations. I was just getting angry reading this, and I'm usually not one to get too angry hearing about elitist behavior, just seeing how out of touch they were with most Americans and their expectations of public schools.


The problem is that many people will also criticize them (as they have in this thread) for sending them to private school without understanding what the public school is really like.

I give them credit, as "elitist", for hearing that these schools were supposed to be really good and giving them a try for their children as there are some inherent advantages to public school.

It didn't work, so be it, and they're moving them to private school.

End of story.

This does not make me mad at ALL.

[ISiddiqui]

I dunno if it is 'end of story'. Apparently some of these folks are complaining, hence why there is a story in the NY Times about it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Though I wonder... how can you go through 7 'levels' of a language in only 4 years? And how much time is there for elective classes? I know in my public school we had space for 1, maybe 2, elective classes a semester.

I think part of the answer to that might be found in how schools are starting to break up classes now, plus how "electives" are defined.

From page 3 of the Georgia requirements for graduation:
http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/_documents/doe/legalservices/160-4-2-.47.pdf

Looks like there's a max of 24 units from gr. 9 thru 12.
Of those, 14 come from the core of Math, English/LA, Science, and Soc. Studies.

1 more is Health/PE, leaving 9 for what would have been called "electives" back in my day (80's).

And if you figure a few summer school additional electives, you could probably get through the 7 levels (even if they didn't count).

[wade moore]

I dunno if it is 'end of story'. Apparently some of these folks are complaining, hence why there is a story in the NY Times about it.

Pretty big leap to assume these parents are the reason this article exists.

Living in the town I do, I know that the newspaper often hunts these things down.

[ISiddiqui]

Pretty big leap to assume these parents are the reason this article exists.

Living in the town I do, I know that the newspaper often hunts these things down.

*shrug* It seemed the subtext was that these parents are now upset that they are paying high property taxes (to support the public schools among other things) as well as high tuition costs for private schools. The easy answer to that, of course, would be to move back into the city...

Perhaps the NY Times was hunting this story down, but I don't see it as being a write up without some upset parents.

[wade moore]

*shrug* It seemed the subtext was that these parents are now upset that they are paying high property taxes (to support the public schools among other things) as well as high tuition costs for private schools. The easy answer to that, of course, would be to move back into the city...

Perhaps the NY Times was hunting this story down, but I don't see it as being a write up without some upset parents.

*shrug*.. I'd be upset too...

[Passacaglia]

Did test scores even go down? If the sole of their research was test scores, and test scores are still the same 'as advertised' they're getting what they wanted.

[Mustang]

She said her husband’s Ford Focus had become something of a joke parked alongside his co-workers’ Mercedes-Benzes and BMWs, as the family has forgone fancy cars and vacations to afford the tuition.


Poor guys.

[Samdari]

This seems like an attempt at good parenting to me, so I'm a bit annoyed by the slam on them... for as many parents that won't even read to their elementary school children at night, to be coming down on folks that moved just to try and improve their kids education, then when that didn't work are willing to spend $20k a year to fix the problem is just much sillier than these parents complaining to me and shows a complete lack of knowledge of how hard it is to get parents that care.

Research consistenly shows that the key to a good education is parental involvement in children's education.

Shopping for schools that will best autonomously educate them is most definitely NOT good parenting. The time would be better spent going over their homework with them and talking to them about what they are learning.

[wade moore]

Research consistenly shows that the key to a good education is parental involvement in children's education.

Shopping for schools that will best autonomously educate them is most definitely NOT good parenting. The time would be better spent going over their homework with them and talking to them about what they are learning.

Fair point. I'm making a pretty big leap that if they care about this stuff this much, that they are involved at home too.

But from what I see with my fiancee's classroom, the fact that the parents care this much about the school is far better than a lot of parents... It's not unreasonable to think that they are also giving school attention at home.

[Bee]

Interesting...what I get from the article is kids are a pain in the ass and if you want to drive a decent car and take vacations, you shouldn't have any. *shurg*

[Samdari]

Fair point. I'm making a pretty big leap that if they care about this stuff this much, that they are involved at home too.

But from what I see with my fiancee's classroom, the fact that the parents care this much about the school is far better than a lot of parents... It's not unreasonable to think that they are also giving school attention at home.

I am making the assumption that they are searching so hard because like so many parents in this country, they expect the school to be solely responsible for their children's education. Perhaps not fair, but they're rich people, so they garner little sympathy and inspire few good thoughts.

No, its not unreasonable to think that these are involved parents. I just happen to read ther actions the opposite way - they need their kids to get more individual instruction at school because they don't get it at home.

Interewhat I get from the article is kids are a pain in the ass

Ugh, let me tell you......

[wade moore]

I am making the assumption that they are searching so hard because like so many parents in this country, they expect the school to be solely responsible for their children's education. Perhaps not fair, but they're rich people, so they garner little sympathy and inspire few good thoughts.

No, its not unreasonable to think that these are involved parents. I just happen to read ther actions the opposite way - they need their kids to get more individual instruction at school because they don't get it at home.

I think either assumption is reasonable, so I'm not going to fault you there and can totally see where you think that...

That being said, I still think anger at them for wanting their kids in the best school possible is silly...

Now, anger at them for wanting the school to raise the kid, that I can get behind...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting...what I get from the article is kids are a pain in the ass and if you want to drive a decent car and take vacations, you shouldn't have any. *shurg*

This would not be an entirely off-base lesson to glean from the article.

[wade moore]

This would not be an entirely off-base lesson to glean from the article.

I wouldn't have argued with that point either ;).

[Bee]

This would not be an entirely off-base lesson to glean from the article.


I guess it's all perspective...:D

[Desnudo]

So what are the other reasons?

[Galaxy]

So exactly was the point of the article? That rich people are scumbags?

[GreenMonster]

So exactly was the point of the article? That rich people are scumbags?


No that these rich people are to stupid to do a little research before hand.. My parents told me when I moved to Cobb County GA, that the HS I was going to was going to be much bigger than my one in CT and much busier. Walton also happens to be one of the highest ranked public HS in all of the US (#4 in 99' US News and World Report) which is why my parents moved to that location, in the hopes me and my brothers would recieve the best education possible.. If these problems happened during the 4 years they enrolled I can see why there mad, but I suspect they moved there family to this new location without even checking things out and now regret the expensive decision they made not to look harder into what they were getting themselves into. Your rich, deal with it..

[Galaxy]

How is it different than middle-class and lower-class people? At least it seems like they are taking an interest in the children's education.

Should they have done the research? Of course. All parents should. I just don't see the, "Because they rich", argument.

[PSUColonel]

I am one of those wealthy people. I must admit I would never want to have had to go to public school, it just so passe, I mean really.

[Young Drachma]

Fair warning: I don't have the foggiest idea how well these offerings are taught, I can only look at what offerings they have. I'm also not at all familiar whether only one school in the system offers certain things or if each HS has the full slate

That said though, you can tell me how you feel like this stacks up. By my way of thinking, there's quite a bit there & it's competitive with most of the private schools I'm familiar with, exceeding the majority of them at least in depth & breadth except perhaps for the top 2 or 3.

From their curriculum info at http://www.gwinnett.k12.ga.us
(These all appear to be high school level courses, as there are different lists for middle school grades)

7 levels of Latin
6 levels of French
7 levels of German
7 levels of Spanish
5 electives of Dance
7 electives of "Music"
5 electives of "Orchestra"
5 electives of "Theatre Arts"
14 electives of "Visual Arts"
5 electives of "Choral Music"
3 electives of "Band"
10 electives of "Marketing" (from sports marketing classes to fashion mktg)
8 electives of Video Production

And that just the ones the jumped at me as being above & beyond what I perceive as the norm, there's other stuff if you want to sift through it.

As you probably know, I'm pretty low on the list of people who will defend much about public school over private, but I have to admit that if I saw that list of offerings I would think that it was competitive, at least on the surface (which is where I suspect some of the parents got themselves disappointed, they didn't dig quite deep enough)


Meh.

These parents are full o' it. What they're actually saying is, "We didn't want to pay the 30k plus to board our kids at prep school (or 20-30k as day students) when we could get it for free at a public school."

And now they are outraged that these schools don't offer what they would expect them to, when the reality is..these schools never had a shot.

Suburban schools by and large are good, but a lot of the same problems that cities were facing a decade or so ago, are hitting the suburbs in the same way. They just do a better job of covering most of it up and have their vaunted "reputations" to fall back on. Think of it like the BCS. ;)

So the parents are being good parents for being outraged on some level, but...didn't they talk to other people and check out the schools before moving? Probably not. In most cases, they simply looked for an address in a district that's perceived as "good" and find out that they aren't as "good" as they used to be.

Even if they were great, they're not competing with schools that have endowments bigger than colleges, with smaller enrollments, sprawling campuses and offering that rival small, private liberal arts colleges.


http://www.pingry.org/academics/curriculum.html
http://peddie.org/podium/default.aspx?t=16419
http://www.kentplace.org/
http://web.blair.edu/Academics/ac_introduction.shtm
http://www.mobeard.org/mbsWeb/academics/curriculum/index.php
http://www.pennington.org/academics/upper.asp

But it's a world that's removed from most people, so...it seems a bit weird, but the NY Times is so full of stories like that, I often get annoyed because it exposes how provincial that part of the country can be, more than anywhere else in the US.

[Solecismic]

When did the American Dream become to have everything, but not have to earn anything?

These parents want happy, successful, well-rounded children. That's great. But either they have to put in the extra work or someone else has to. That someone else is never going to be the public schools. That's not what they were designed for.

It would be far cheaper to stick with the public schools, engage the kids in the evenings rather than sticking them in front of a Playstation, and supplement their education with weekend and summer private arts/crafts classes.

[PSUColonel]

I hope you can tell, my above post was sarcastic. I do have an unique outlook on this, as I attended both public and private schools at various times in my life. I did 5 years of private in elementary, while also doing 4 years of elementary/junior high in public school. I did 3 years of high school at a boarding school, while doing one in public school. Both have their pluses and minuses. I must admit that I think the education I received in private school was definatley superior to that of public. Public schools do not spend time on the classics. I was taking French and latin in 5th grade, and reading novels such as Beowulf. You just aren't going to get that kind of a classical education in a public school. On the flip side of the coin, public school teaches you something private school does not...how to work/deal with different kinds of people from many different walks of life. In private school most of the students and teachers are very similar. I like to think I had the best of both worlds I guess. Anyway, this is my take on it. Speaking of sports, I played football, was a skier, and was on the golf team. I will say this our racing and golf programs were far better than public schools, but in football, it was always my experience that public schools had better football programs than private schools.

[ISiddiqui]

You just aren't going to get that kind of a classical education in a public school.

Indeed, and I was flabbergasted to find that you had parents who thought that they'd get the same, or relatively similar, options at a public school, no matter how good they are (including JIMG's example of Gwinnett schools). A private school that can charge over $20k tuition has an advantage over any public school, even ones in rich areas where property tax revenues are good.

The thing that bothered me wasn't necessarily what they wanted for their kids, but what their expectations showed about how 'in touch' they were with the rest of society who goes to such public schools. It was like they assumed they'd get their kids similar type of education (creative, lots of options in the arts, not teaching to the test) while not having to pay private school tuition. And then realizing, wait, they were totally wrong and now bitching about paying tuition and high property taxes.

When did the American Dream become to have everything, but not have to earn anything?

That's it!! It's like they feel they are entitled to suburban property taxes (rather than private school tuition) but private school education. And then whining when they can't get that and have to drive a Ford Focus instead of a Mercedes because of tuition and property tax costs (what horror!!)

[Galaxy]

Indeed, and I was flabbergasted to find that you had parents who thought that they'd get the same, or relatively similar, options at a public school, no matter how good they are (including JIMG's example of Gwinnett schools). A private school that can charge over $20k tuition has an advantage over any public school, even ones in rich areas where property tax revenues are good.

The thing that bothered me wasn't necessarily what they wanted for their kids, but what their expectations showed about how 'in touch' they were with the rest of society who goes to such public schools. It was like they assumed they'd get their kids similar type of education (creative, lots of options in the arts, not teaching to the test) while not having to pay private school tuition. And then realizing, wait, they were totally wrong and now bitching about paying tuition and high property taxes.

That's it!! It's like they feel they are entitled to suburban property taxes (rather than private school tuition) but private school education. And then whining when they can't get that and have to drive a Ford Focus instead of a Mercedes because of tuition and property tax costs (what horror!!)


I can agree with this. I just got the feeling it "was because they rich"=all rich people.

[JonInMiddleGA]

but...didn't they talk to other people and check out the schools before moving?

At the risk of a tangent, I'm not sure (having just gone through the research to find a new school last year) that you ever really know for sure until you're really on the inside.

Ask five people for their opinions of a given school, public or private, and you're likely to get five distinctly different opinions. And it appears that there's a pretty good chance that your own opinion might turn out to be a sixth one altogether.

What I'm getting at is that it's kind of like having a kid or being married or something like that; you can get advice, read stuff, etc. but nobody can really explain it to you, you have to experience it for yourself.

[JeffNights]

I think alot of it is that school is what you make of it. If the parents properly motivate thier children, then the ability to learn and comprehend will be there.

As a sidenote, my narrow view of private schools is that from K-6 i went to a small private school,...at the start of 7th grade in a public middle school, i found i was light years ahead of the curriculum.

[cuervo72]

Walton also happens to be one of the highest ranked public HS in all of the US (#4 in 99' US News and World Report) which is why my parents moved to that location, in the hopes me and my brothers would recieve the best education possible.. If these problems happened during the 4 years they enrolled I can see why there mad, but I suspect they moved there family to this new location without even checking things out and now regret the expensive decision they made not to look harder into what they were getting themselves into. Your rich, deal with it..

Oy vey....

[Anthony]

i now live in a New York suburb - Nassau County, Long Island - and i, too, have heard how great the schools are here. my wife and i both went to private Catholic schools for elementary, HS and college, and while we'd both love to send our children to the private schools here in our district (and fully intend on doing so even if that means i gotta work 2 two jobs), if it can't be done financially we would be more than satisfied with sending the kids to public schools. it's not like it's a scenario we're trying to avoid, at this point it's 60-40 in favor of sending them to private schools. but we also want quality of life, and we have to balance sending them to posh private schools and also being able to go on vacations and such. as jim alluded to, there's more to developing in life than what is provided by a school. sure, they play huge parts, but any shortcomings should be supplemented by parental involvement.

[st.cronin]

Nassau County? Dude, I thought you were hard.

[Galaxy]

What's sad is the best public schools have a hard time being at least competive with the worst private schools.

[SFL Cat]

What's sad is the best public schools have a hard time being at least competive with the worst private schools.

Especially when you consider all the federal money they throw at public education.

[Klinglerware]

Especially when you consider all the federal money they throw at public education.

But on the other hand, of course even the best public schools are not going to spend as much per student as your typical prep school. Even in wealthy states, per student expenditures average in the $10,000 - $13,000 range. Even a mediocre prep school will charge $15,000 - $25,000 in tuition.

Bottom line, you get what you pay for. The best public schools are good, but they can't hope to match the resources of Choate, et al.

That being said, while private school preparation generally beats public hands down, I see a few disadvantages to private school too (gleaned from my family's experiences at prep school). For example, the kids tend to be sheltered, with little interaction with "regular people" as someone else noted earlier. There are some sense-of-entitlement issues with a few, but this could be a regional demographic thing, not necessarily a public-private issue. These drawbacks are enough that I would lean towards sending my kids to public school.