FOF2k7: La Ligue Etrangere Solecismique

[kcchief19]

Inspired by SkyDog's recent forays into discussion on certain topics releated to the new game, I wanted to delved into one of my favorite new additions. I'm fascinated in the Summer League feature, both in how it works and it's impact of players.

It's been touched on in other threads, but I'm not sure we've had a full-length discussion of observations. My initial observations based on my experience and what I've seen from others is that it definitely impacts ratings, but it seems to have a more dramatic effect if the player gets playing time when he comes back.

Case in point -- WR Mike Willing. Desperate for receivers, I nearly traded up to get my first choice, but eventually traded down when he went off the board and settled for my second choice, who I ranked higher than his draft rating due to his combine scores and interview. He came in at 32/54.

In his first season, he blew out his knee in our third exhibition game and had to go on IR for the entire season. Ugh. Despite this, the following season he was 35/51 when it came time for me to choose my summer league player, and given my need for wideouts I sent him.

By the beginning of the season, after a lot of play in the preseason, he was 38/51. Unfortunately, that still made him my lowest rated receiver, since I had a handful of guys in the 45-50 range. He initially started the season as my fifth wideout, but I made him active because I wanted to get him some playing time.

About halfway through the season, one of my starters went down and Willing went into the No. 2 slot. What happened next fascinated me -- he picked up a rating point per week playing as a backup. Through the first part of the season buried at No. 5, he had moved up to 39/51. After two games at No. 2, he was 41/51. This kept up until week 13, when two things happend -- I suffered another injury at wideout, and his ratings were now passing his teammates. Since I'm letting my coaches set the depth chart, he moved up to starter for the final three games of the year and the playoffs.

From there, the development was complete. He was fully developed at 51/51 by the end of the season. His numbers weren't spectactular -- he had about 25 catches for 350 yards and only caught about half the balls thrown his way. But I'll take a hard look at him next season.

I've experiment with sending different players to summer league thus far and my experience is definitely that unless you play to play the player when he comes back, the summer league experience won't be a huge boost -- it will help, but not in a signicant way. But with playing time, these guys will develop in a hurry.

[QuikSand]

But with playing time, these guys will develop in a hurry.

Anyone have any evidence that this is more true with players sent to Europe?

Seems development is more rapid in the FOF 2007 game anyway... I don't have a firm sense of whether the case you describe has much of anything to do with his offseason assignment.

[kcchief19]

I'll have to see if I can find the thread where I believe SkyDog ran a quick test seeing how a player developed in regard to Europe and playing time. That anecdotal evidence suggested that while both going to Europe and playing time contributed to development, the combination of Europe and playing time accelerated development. That is, if he went to Europe but didn't play, he wouldn't development much; if he played but didn't go to Europe, he didn't develop as fast as he would otherwise.

My anecdotal experience with this player was that his development occurred at a much faster rate than his contemporaries with moderate playing time -- remember, he missed his entire rookie season with an injury, then was fully developed at the end of his second season after starting thee games and only contributing half a season. Heck, he added essentially 13 points of development while catching 25 passes.

I haven't seen that type of development from my other players. In most cases thus far, I have seen players nearly reach their full potential in just their second season with a trip to Europe, while players who don't go to Europe take more time to develop.

I also have a LT I sent to Europe who is still a little slow on the development side. He was a player with low current but high potential I sent to summer league but haven't played much because his current ratings are still too low. I wonder what would have happened if I plugged him as the starter and took my lumps.

[Peregrine]

I did a test on the same topic, it might be the thread you're thinking of:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=53831

[Ksyrup]

So, the summer league may be worthless for a QB unless you intend to start him the next year - someone like a Jay Cutler, for example, who is all but guaranteed to be handed the starting job as a secnd year player. Otherwise, you waste a chance to improve someone on your team unless your young backup QB gets some playing time due to injury.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Nothing much to add to the discussion as I don't have the game yet, but I must say I love the new summer league's name! :D

[MIJB#19]

Nothing much to add to the discussion as I don't have the game yet, but I must say I love the new summer league's name! :D
Well, you know, stuff sounds much better in French than in German.
Die Trainiere Liga Solecismich, it just doesn't work.

[AlexB]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Solecismic http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/styles/yellow/buttons//viewpost.gif (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1306775#post1306775)
The scouting is done very differently in FOF 2007 than in the past. I felt, especially from playing the draft, that the old style of large green bars was just overly random. It was too hard to get a fix on a player - with both the red and the green being potentially subject to a large scouting error. They are more tied together now.

So I condensed the bars, especially on the lowest level of play. Red doesn't necessarily mean exact. I did not change the player development algorithms.

This will take some getting used to. But each game is different, takes some serious adjustment. Experience is much more important now (right-clicking in the ratings area).
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Bearing in mind the discussion on red/green bars, Jim's quote here might shed some light on the value of the summer league given what the help file says:


Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by helpfile
Use the Summer button to send a player to La Ligue Etrangere Solecismique, which is Front Office Football's foreign summer league. You may send one second-year player to this league every season. He will gain experience, and he might become a better player entirely.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

From what the help file says, this makes me think the whole rating system has changed this version.

[Ksyrup]

So I've had a chance to dive into the game the past few days, taking over the Lions and playing 3 seasons (thru 2008). After struggling through that first year, I decided we desperately needed a QB, so I traded up to the overall #1 spot to take an absolute stud of a prospect - graded out at 8.8, and #1 in all combine stats except one (he was #3). It cost me 3 #1 picks and a #2, but I decided to go for it.

He comes out of training camp at 34/94. With only Kitna and McCown on the roster, I decide to start him from game 1, and he ends up at 54/94 by the end of the season. So I figured why not try him at summer league? Well, I send him to summer camp, and afterwards, he's at 52/94. So I'm thinking shit, I just pissed him off by sending him to summer league. Well, he proceeds to improve from 52/94 to 84/94 throughout the season, leading my Lions to a 12-4 record and a SB appearance (we lost to...a Titans team QB'd by a 'doubtful' Kerry Collins (:confused: :( )).

So, I don't know if the summer league had what appeared to be a negative reaction on his development, or a temporary decline followed by an accelerated learning curve during the regular season. All I know is...I'm heading into 2009 with a monster QB.

I love this game!

[Narcizo]

I think the current rating drop has nothing to do with the summer league. Lots of players get those. The huge in-season improvement, does seem linked to it though.

I think that the premises of the summer league should be changed so that people don't regularly send players who are already starting or were taken in the first round.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have done that - I guess that was "cheating." I'll give myself 30 lashes with a wet noodle as he takes me back to the playoffs this year. :)

[kcchief19]

Based on my latest experiences, I'm ready to slightly modify my original assumptions to reflect that new observations.

Observation one is that I'm not sure that sending players to summer league prevents players from busting. Offensive tackle has been a struggle to find and keep in my league, so I've been trying to grow my own. I sent a tackle to summer league who fit the profile of a bust type player -- low current ratings, high potential. He fully developed faster than normal, but instead of becoming a 74/74 guy he become a 47/47 guy who plays at a level even lower than that -- LOVE the scout error. I think it makes scouting yourself that much more fun.

Observation two has less to do with summer league and more to do with scouting. After my starting quarterback retired at age 41 -- that's right, 41!!!! -- I was caught without a viable option. I had brought in a journeyman backup who still had some development room left a couple of seasons earlier thinking my QB was going to retire at anytime. When he stuck around longer than expected, I ended up with a backup who was too ticked off about playing time to resign with me. So going into the next season, I had no veteran QB and the free agent pickings were slim to none.

I had been drafting a rookie QB every year to see if one could break out, so I had a couple of options. One was 11/56 and the other was 23/48. Normally, the 11/56 guy would scare me off, but the were a couple of factors at play. One is that he was very even across the board -- not terrible at anything, not great anywhere. The 23/48 guy was great at a couple of things but horrible at others -- single digits in accuracy. Of note during the previous season is that when I let me assistants handle the depth chart, the AI chose to put the 11/56 QB ahead of the 23/48 QB. I decide to send the 11/56 guy to Europe and see what happens with the plan to start him the following season.

He comes back from Europe with no change, but I'm hoping the boost will come in camp and the exhibiton season. I did a bit of a QB try out, letting both play in the preseason. The 11/56 guy put up better numbers, and he enters the season at 13/56.

Since I'm still not committed, I start the season with a short leash, setting his playing time low so my other guy will get time. Through the first month, my starter put up decent numbers, with a QB rating around 70. The back up was 6 of 24 with three picks and a QB rating of 4.9. Ugh. I take off the leash and my starter play most of the rest of the season, only letting my backup get in during a couple of weeks when my starter was questionable and letting the two split time in the finale. At the end of the season, 23/48 is now 28/48 and 11/56 is now 22/56.

But the amazing part for me is the disparity in the quality of play. of these two, especially earlier on when their ratings were further apart. The higher rated player is a gas can -- perhaps due to his low accuracy rating, perhaps due to a the suspected FOF trend for players to play closer to their potential than their actual ratings. My starter didn't set the world on fire -- he ended up with a QB rating in the low 70s -- but we went 8-8 with an inexperienced QB and a depleted receiving corps.

I'm enjoying the scouting/rating changes almost more than any other aspect of the game.

[Ksyrup]

I've definitely noticed the first point you made. Even without the summer league, I've taken a couple of fliers on 12/60-ish undrafted FAs and ended up with solid backups at 45/45 or so. Not a bad trade off, since they are pretty cheap to develop and can usually be resigned for at least a few years at their full ratings. As long as you don't depend on them too much, they can be worth it. I've found WR and OL to be the best positions for this kind of flier.

[wbatl1]

So I've had a chance to dive into the game the past few days, taking over the Lions and playing 3 seasons (thru 2008). After struggling through that first year, I decided we desperately needed a QB, so I traded up to the overall #1 spot to take an absolute stud of a prospect - graded out at 8.8, and #1 in all combine stats except one (he was #3). It cost me 3 #1 picks and a #2, but I decided to go for it.

He comes out of training camp at 34/94. With only Kitna and McCown on the roster, I decide to start him from game 1, and he ends up at 54/94 by the end of the season. So I figured why not try him at summer league? Well, I send him to summer camp, and afterwards, he's at 52/94. So I'm thinking shit, I just pissed him off by sending him to summer league. Well, he proceeds to improve from 52/94 to 84/94 throughout the season, leading my Lions to a 12-4 record and a SB appearance (we lost to...a Titans team QB'd by a 'doubtful' Kerry Collins (:confused: :( )).

So, I don't know if the summer league had what appeared to be a negative reaction on his development, or a temporary decline followed by an accelerated learning curve during the regular season. All I know is...I'm heading into 2009 with a monster QB.

I love this game!


Until the guy turns into a veteran bust in a couple of training camps. :p

[Mike Lowe]

So, are we considering it a house rule NOT to send a first round pick or a guy who is already starting?

I'm the Lions and I was going to send Ernie Sims, but, after thinking about it, it does seem a bit unrealstic for a team to send a high profile player in the organization overseas (risking injury etc).

[JeffW]

So, are we considering it a house rule NOT to send a first round pick or a guy who is already starting?

I'm the Lions and I was going to send Ernie Sims, but, after thinking about it, it does seem a bit unrealstic for a team to send a high profile player in the organization overseas (risking injury etc).

Well, if you're worried about realism, you prob. shouldn't use it at all.

Otherwise, it's not really enough of a game breaker to worry about.

[Mike Lowe]

Well, if you're worried about realism, you prob. shouldn't use it at all.

Otherwise, it's not really enough of a game breaker to worry about.

How come? Do the AI teams not use this? Can we even know this?

[MizzouRah]

How come? Do the AI teams not use this? Can we even know this?

Yes the AI teams use this, check your transactions.

I love this feature.

[Bode]

How come? Do the AI teams not use this? Can we even know this?


The AI teams do random stuff related to this. Some of them send starting players. Some of the send backups. Some of them send players who never even played during the first season.

Around 7% of teams in my league send thier 1st round to camp, with most sending thier 2nd round. In most of these 2 cases these players started some games. In about 20-25% of the cases they started all games they weren't injured.

The teams that sent like 6th round scrubs were players who never even played in the season. I dont know why they would do this, but I guess they have to send someone. Pointless to send nobody.

[MizzouRah]

Sometimes I send an under-developed player that has good ratings to get him up to speed quicker.

BUT I've also sent guys who don't start, but I'm hoping they could end up fitting into that backup role at some point.

[Raiders Army]

Somewhat related, but I just found that the "Summer League Solecismique" in the middle information box on the player's card stays there for only the year that they were sent. After that, the only way that you know a player went there is by the Injury and Transaction History.

I think Jim took out the Solecismique tag after subsequent seasons because that player wasn't playing in the Summer League; however, since only 2nd year players can go why not leave it in there? It doesn't bother me much, but I would like to see the Solecismique tag stick throughout their career.