Problem with 6.0b (rb total rushes) [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

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scoman

11-17-2006, 03:07 AM

Ive just completed my second fictional season with 6.0b and the rb's are getting way to many total rushes,one guy has had 500+ rushes each year , with numerous guys over 400+ rushes per year,the Nfl record is 410 in one season i beleive ,with only 4 guys going over 400 in NFL history.Anyone else seeing this?

Front Office Midget

11-17-2006, 03:18 AM

Crap. I just bought the game too, thinking it was totally fixed. *Sigh*

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 03:19 AM

Ive just completed my second fictional season with 6.0b and the rb's are getting way to many total rushes,one guy has had 500+ rushes both years with numerous guys over 400+ rushes,the Nfl record is 410 in one season i beleive ,with only 4 guys going over 400 in NFL history.Anyone else seeing this?Hmmmm...with the dynamic nature of AI gameplans in this new version, I certainly wouldn't be shocked by something like that. However, I haven't seen it so far. I've only run three seasons with 6.0b, so take it with a grain of salt, but the highest I've seen is 438 carries, and only two guys in three years have >400 carries. My first guess as to the culprit would be your injury setting. I always use 200, which Jim says is designed to be the most realistic, and there's little question in my mind that even 200 is less than real life. There were some stats issues in FOF2004 (such as too many QB's getting >4,000 yards in a season) that pretty much went away when injuries were cranked up to 200.

scoman

11-17-2006, 03:20 AM

Yeah,that kind of puts a halt to my career,untill this can be addressed.

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 03:21 AM

Crap. I just bought the game too, thinking it was totally fixed. *Sigh*If you ever find a game that is totally fixed, please let me know. I'd love to see it.

Peregrine

11-17-2006, 03:21 AM

I've definitely seen some guys racking up a ton of rushes and yards with the new patch, but not to this degree yet at least. I'll have to check when I get home.

scoman

11-17-2006, 03:23 AM

Hmmmm...with the dynamic nature of AI gameplans in this new version, I certainly wouldn't be shocked by something like that. However, I haven't seen it so far. I've only run three seasons with 6.0b, so take it with a grain of salt, but the highest I've seen is 438 carries, and only two guys in three years have >400 carries. My first guess as to the culprit would be your injury setting. I always use 200, which Jim says is designed to be the most realistic, and there's little question in my mind that even 200 is less than real life. There were some stats issues in FOF2004 (such as too many QB's getting >4,000 yards in a season) that pretty much went away when injuries were cranked up to 200.

If thats the case then,it seems that 200 should be the default setting then, wouldnt you think? Im about ready for bed now,but ill check that out tomorrow on the 200 injury setting.

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 03:25 AM

If thats the case then,it seems that 200 should be the defualt setting then, wouldnt you think? Im about ready for bed now,but ill check that out tomorrow on the 200 injury setting.Well, the problem is that it seems that the vast majority people don't want to play with a realistic level of injuries. If I were the developer, I'm not sure what I'd do about this.

Just ran another season. Max carries=413, with only two guys over 350. I'll run the next one at 100, just to see...

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 03:27 AM

Oh...and here's what Jim said about it recently:

I recommend using 100 because a higher injury level is frustrating for people who don't run a football team on a full-time basis. I'd prefer to use it myself. But 200 is designed to be more realistic.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1304063&postcount=18

Oh, and WELCOME TO THE BOARD!

scoman

11-17-2006, 03:28 AM

Are you getting a semi accurate number of 1000 yard receivers per year with the 200 injury setting?

Front Office Midget

11-17-2006, 03:29 AM

If you ever find a game that is totally fixed, please let me know. I'd love to see it.

The only problems I had with 2k4 were late-game AI, a few slight statistical problems (nothing major), and too many teams losing top players too often.

Obviously, the third one has been addressed (which was the most important, and ultimately why I bought the game).... but if there's an overkill of rush attempts, maybe that would ruin it for me.

I've always played at 100 injury setting. Perhaps I should start going 200? It seems like even with 100 I have some seasons where i have 8 guys out for the year.

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 03:36 AM

Are you getting a semi accurate number of 1000 yard receivers per year with the 200 injury setting?Had 18 in my latest season.

scoman

11-17-2006, 03:38 AM

Had 18 in my latest season.

Im simming a season on 200,lets see what i get.

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 03:40 AM

I've always played at 100 injury setting. Perhaps I should start going 200? It seems like even with 100 I have some seasons where i have 8 guys out for the year.I think it really depends on what matters most to you. I haven't checked, but I doubt that the LEAGUE totals and averages are far off from reality at 100. My guess is that the issue is just that top-tier players are staying on the field at a significant higher rate than reality when injuries are at 100, so there are more chances for a few much-better-than-most guys to put up big-time numbers. The talent distribution in FOF is done on a pretty much logarithmic scale.

scoman

11-17-2006, 03:40 AM

Im simming a season on 200,lets see what i get.

1-463
2-452
3-390
4-346
5-345
15 1000 yard receivers

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 03:41 AM

1-463
2-452
3-390
4-346
5-345
15 1000 yard receiversAnother question: what season are you in, and if you're early in your career, what roster set did you start with? (I'm fairly certain that both make a difference.)

scoman

11-17-2006, 03:43 AM

Another question: what season are you in, and if you're early in your career, what roster set did you start with? (I'm fairly certain that both make a difference.)

That was the third season of a fictional league.

scoman

11-17-2006, 03:45 AM

I could be wrong but it seems the overall pct. of carries by the first string back needs tweeked a little bit.

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 03:52 AM

That was the third season of a fictional league.Yeah. Another factor that may be coming into play here: the career I'm looking at is a mature one, with all game-generated draftees. I've always seen some statistical oddities in the first few seasons of new fictional careers, and Jim recently mentioned something about cohesion being lowered and impacting stats some. It's definitely unusual (but good) in that statistics actually seem to become MORE stable and realistic as careers get longer.

That being said, you're probably right about a tweak being needed so that the top endurance backs aren't getting quite as many carries. Running a couple more seasons at Injuries=200, I'm seeing a guy or two every year get over 400. Certainly not a deal-breaker for me or a reason to stop playing my career. It looks like it is only happening with backs with very high endurance, which is certainly much better than what we saw in FOF2K4.

scoman

11-17-2006, 03:56 AM

Yeah. Another factor that may be coming into play here: the career I'm looking at is a mature one, with all game-generated draftees. I've always seen some statistical oddities in the first few seasons of new fictional careers, and Jim recently mentioned something about cohesion being lowered and impacting stats some. It's definitely unusual (but good) in that statistics actually seem to become MORE stable and realistic as careers get longer.

That being said, you're probably right about a tweak being needed so that the top endurance backs aren't getting quite as many carries. Running a couple more seasons at Injuries=200, I'm seeing a guy or two every year get over 400. Certainly not a deal-breaker for me or a reason to stop playing my career. It looks like it is only happening with backs with very high endurance, which is certainly much better than what we saw in FOF2K4.

So you think the 200 setting doesnt equal the real life injury numbers? If not what injury number do you think would immulate the real number of injurys?

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 04:01 AM

So you think the 200 setting doesnt equal the real life injury numbers? If not what injury number do you think would immulate the real number of injurys?My opinion is that it would probably be somewhere in the 230-260 range. I believe that Jim himself has said that 200 is probably a little below real life. I don't know if you've read this board much before posting, or if you just got here. If you just got here, trust me when I say that injuries have been a long-discussed issue. It seems that the great majority of the people here don't want injuries to be as high as they are in real life.

EDIT: And the group here probably represents the more "hard-core" contingent of Jim's customer base. My best guess is that there's a higher percentage of people here than in Jim's customer base as a whole who would want to play with injuries above 200.

scoman

11-17-2006, 04:04 AM

My opinion is that it would probably be somewhere in the 230-260 range. I believe that Jim himself has said that 200 is probably a little below real life. I don't know if you've read this board much before posting, or if you just got here. If you just got here, trust me when I say that injuries have been a long-discussed issue. It seems that the great majority of the people here don't want injuries to be as high as they are in real life.

Well as far as im concerned,my goal with this game is to immulate the pro game as close as possible and that would include injurys. Ill try simming one on 260 and see what happens.

JeffW

11-17-2006, 04:05 AM

My first guess as to the culprit would be your injury setting. I always use 200, which Jim says is designed to be the most realistic, and there's little question in my mind that even 200 is less than real life.

I agree that 200 is realistic as far as total number of injuries and I used to play with 200 injury level exclusively, but would you agree that there are too many career-threatening injuries(injuries where a player loses substantial ratings) at 200?

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 04:05 AM

Well as far as im concerned,my goal with this game is to immulate the pro game as close as possible and that would include injurys. Ill try simming one on 260 and see what happens.260 isn't an option.

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 04:07 AM

I agree that 200 is realistic as far as total number of injuries and I used to play with 200 injury level exclusively, but would you agree that there are too many career-threatening injuries at 200?Distribution may have been a bit off in the past. I don't have a full feel for it in this version. What's interesting is that with the ability to equalize stadiums at the start of a career, injuries as a whole seem lowered from FOF2K4, even at 200. Every team is starting with "Very Good" turf in my league, which is what I believe is causing the change.

scoman

11-17-2006, 04:08 AM

260 isn't an option.

Lol.yeah i just figured that out,well it seems there needs to be a few tweaks then,ill just wait and see what jim has to say about it,thanks for the help,and glad to be a part of the board.

JeffW

11-17-2006, 04:12 AM

Well as far as im concerned,my goal with this game is to immulate the pro game as close as possible and that would include injurys. Ill try simming one on 260 and see what happens.

It only goes up to 200, right?

In Single Player mode, I think 200 is fine, but in MP I think it's best to go with a lower injury setting--otherwise I think you end up with high attrition and disgruntled owners.

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 04:20 AM

It only goes up to 200, right?

In Single Player mode, I think 200 is fine, but in MP I think it's best to go with a lower injury setting--otherwise I think you end up with players quitting or at least ruining their fun.Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that many people use 200 for SP, at least not in the past. If I'm correct about lowered injuries due to better stadiums in this version, I could see more people using it now for SP as time goes on...

Ben E Lou

11-17-2006, 04:24 AM

This thread got me curious. Poll posted about injuries:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=54363

Front Office Midget

11-17-2006, 04:27 AM

HOLY CRAP!!!

First season I simmed, Shaun Alexander had 550 carries for 2399 yards!!!!!

One other guy over 400 carries, 6 guys over 345. I don't follow the NFL close enough to know how many guys are supposed to be over 345... but I know for a fact 550 carries shatters the record. :P On the other hand, it's good to see a lot more RBs with over 10 TDs.

JeffW

11-17-2006, 04:35 AM

One other guy over 400 carries, 6 guys over 345. I don't follow the NFL close enough to know how many guys are supposed to be over 345... but I know for a fact 550 carries shatters the record. :P On the other hand, it's good to see a lot more RBs with over 10 TDs.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/leaders2005.htm

About 3-5 guys/year break 345.

550 is patently ridiculous, though. This was a problem in FOF 2k4 as well--in an MP league someone had 640 carries with TJ Duckett.

I think FOF RBs should have residual effects from running the ball a lot--as the season goes on they should perform more and more poorly relative to their ratings and their chance of injury should increase. To compensate the AI would have to run less with RB1, though.

Right now, I think the way it works is that you have X% chance of NOT getting injured on a play, Y total plays and your chance of NOT getting injured over a season is X^Y. Thus, chance of getting injured at least once is 1-(X^Y).

Rizon

11-17-2006, 08:15 AM

I've simmed 6 seasons so far with vB and have had 11 400+ runners, the highest being 462, 2nd highest being 443. 4 of those 11 were in the last year. Injury setting at 100. I'm going to change it to 200 and sim some more, and I'll bet it ends up being close to normal.

wade moore

11-17-2006, 01:02 PM

Ok, I decided to finally really dig into FOF2k7... One of the first things I wanted to look at was this...

I really do think this is an injuries/endurance issue.. Here is my reasoning..

Just in my most recent season... Here are the top 10 carries in my league compared to the NFL last season (Note, this is on 100 Injury Setting):

NFL:
1. 370
2. 360
3. 357
4. 352
5. 339
6. 337
7. 336
8. 325
9. 314
10. 309

My League:

1. 473
2. 428
3. 422
4. 417
5. 404
6. 397
7. 364
8. 354
9. 349
10. 334

Pretty out of whack, right?

Look at this...

Team Carries:

NFL:

1. 549
2. 542
3. 531
4. 525
5. 521
6. 520
7. 519
8. 502
9. 488
10. 487

My Season:

1. 575
2. 560
3. 547
4. 541
5. 522
6. 520
7. 517
8. 515
9. 511
10. 493

So...

That's not a lot of average data, but put those two team carries next to each other and it seems very reasonable... this leads me to believe that this revolves around Endurance and/or Injuries. I would tend to think endurance. There was a lot of clamor around not being able to get your RB's carries close to 100% in last version. Well, looks like now you can. People will like that in MP leagues. Is it realistic? Doesn't appear so, but it is what people wanted.

So... I'm not 100% sure whether this is something Jim should "fix" or not. If the goal is to be model to the NFL as close to possible, I'd say it's way too easy for a single RB to get carries. If the goal is for it to be fun and give you control, this may be just right.

I'm going to try this with 200 injuries and see if it is dramatically different.

scoman

11-17-2006, 01:18 PM

jbmagic

11-17-2006, 01:21 PM

So you think the RB endurance bug in fof 2k4 has been fix in fof 2k7?

BrianD

11-17-2006, 01:27 PM

So you think the RB endurance bug in fof 2k4 has been fix in fof 2k7?

Oh this should be fun... :D

wade moore

11-17-2006, 01:33 PM

I beleive its something that needs to be fixed,although the team attempts seem about right,it seems this is a endurance issue,that needs to be tweaked a little bit.With the setting at 200 the rb's are still getting too many carries.

Like I was saying, the only reason I say maybe it doesn't need to be fixed is that fixing it might actually make people unhappy. I think you run into a tough situation here where people want THEIR stud RB to carry 100% of the time, but they don't want everyone else's too ;).

So. Yeah, I'm saying this definitely needs tweaking in order to model what the NFL does. But that some people might be happy that they can now give as many carries to their stud as they want, so maybe from a game perspective it should not be fixed.

If I had my preference as a gamer, it would be fixed, but I side pretty heavily with realism.

So you think the RB endurance bug in fof 2k4 has been fix in fof 2k7?

I'll go easy on you jb.

Yes, it has been fixed.

scoman

11-17-2006, 01:44 PM

If I had my preference as a gamer, it would be fixed, but I side pretty heavily with realism.

To me this fix is a no brainer,as im a real stickler on accurate stats all around the board. I havent seen Jim address this issue yet,but i have too beleive he will want to fix it.

Shkspr

11-17-2006, 01:44 PM

This thread got me curious. Poll posted about injuries:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=54363

That's all well and good, Ben, but it has recently come to my attention that maybe human polls aren't so credible.

Northwood_DK

11-17-2006, 01:47 PM

well played

scoman

11-17-2006, 01:48 PM

That's all well and good, Ben, but it has recently come to my attention that maybe human polls aren't so credible.

Thats a whole other issue,polls have no meaning ,only if they were to have 100% of the vote,which no poll ever does,thats what sucks about college football.

Shkspr

11-17-2006, 01:55 PM

Thats a whole other issue,polls have no meaning ,only if they were to have 100% of the vote,which no poll ever does,thats what sucks about college football.

And a Hello, Tim Duncan to you, too. :)

sabotai

11-17-2006, 01:56 PM

That's all well and good, Ben, but it has recently come to my attention that maybe human polls aren't so credible.

I give this a perfect score of 10. Bravo!

wade moore

11-17-2006, 02:05 PM

To me this fix is a no brainer,as im a real stickler on accurate stats all around the board. I havent seen Jim address this issue yet,but i have too beleive he will want to fix it.

Just by post count I'm guessing you haven't been around for FOF2k4 Discussion..

There was a lot of consternation around RB Endurance in 2k4. A lot of it revolved around people wanting to get their 90+ Endurance RB around 95-100% of the carries. That's what would cause these numbers. Is it realistic? No. But people wanted it.

Anyway, like I said, I'd like to see it more realistic personally.

And, FWIW, as I sim ahead seasons and the league gets more mature, these numbers start to look better. Still off, but better. I have to believe this revolves around talent distributin.

scoman

11-17-2006, 02:33 PM

Just by post count I'm guessing you haven't been around for FOF2k4 Discussion..

There was a lot of consternation around RB Endurance in 2k4. A lot of it revolved around people wanting to get their 90+ Endurance RB around 95-100% of the carries. That's what would cause these numbers. Is it realistic? No. But people wanted it.

Anyway, like I said, I'd like to see it more realistic personally.

And, FWIW, as I sim ahead seasons and the league gets more mature, these numbers start to look better. Still off, but better. I have to believe this revolves around talent distributin.

Well to me then,the easy fix would be to have a adjustable endurance setting like the injury setting,have the default setting at the NFL norm,then each user could adjust it ,to get there desired overall stats.That should satisfy all users.

wade moore

11-17-2006, 02:35 PM

Well to me then,the easy fix would be to have a adjustable endurance setting like the injury setting,have the default setting at the NFL norm,then each user could adjust it ,to get there desired overall stats.That should satisfy all users.

Yeah, not a bad idea, but one I don't see happening any time soon... Just from an ease of implementation at this stage. Not trying to speak for Jim, I'm just sayin...

dubb93

11-17-2006, 02:58 PM

This strikes me as something that will bother me more at the end of a season than from game to game. And I think I can deal with that actually. The problem may stem from the improved game planning by the AI. I must say, some of my better seasons in FOF2K4 were when I had a young QB surrounded by alot of talent, especially at RB and OL.

In that situation I would run the ball 60-70% of the time and my RB would end up with 2,000+ yard years until the QB developed, but we would still be a playoff team during that run without a real QB. The % of carries a main back is getting aside, it just seems to me that the AI has begun to catch up to the human, and as far a difficulty goes I believe this to be a good thing rather than a bad.

CraigSca

11-17-2006, 03:16 PM

In my 11 years with 6.0b, I've had 21 guys with over 400+ rushing attempts. The great majority are in the 400-410 range, and the highest was 468 (and was the highest, by far). While it may need to be tempered a bit, I am not seeing the astronomical numbers in the inital post at all.

One thing I will reiterate, the game-planning by the AI in 6.0b has been eye-poppingly awesome. For SP, it adds a lot as teams have distinctive personalities.

I think it's time to rev up the ol' 40 Years of NFL Music.

scoman

11-17-2006, 03:35 PM

scoman

11-17-2006, 04:13 PM

I restarted a fictional league ,this time with the injury setting at 200,and ran 5 seasons.First year i had 3 over 400 with a high of 501,then seasons 2-4 there was one guy over 400 each year with 427,434,420,respectively,then season 5 there were 2 over 400 with 422 and 418,so i think the 200 injury setting is much better for me personally,and thats not to far off the norm in the nfl,but i would like to see it tweaked down a little bit,but for now i can live with it.

Front Office Midget

11-17-2006, 04:16 PM

One thing I will reiterate, the game-planning by the AI in 6.0b has been eye-poppingly awesome. For SP, it adds a lot as teams have distinctive personalities.

I love that in my league, Seattle's team personality is the give the ball to Shaun Alexander 35 times a game. :)

It's not a gamebreaker, obviously. I can just imagine that he is suddenly superman, and there has never and never will be another athlete so physically fit in the history of the world. The rest of the game makes up for it at this point, but hopefully it gets fixed.

CraigSca

11-17-2006, 04:16 PM

Yep, I'm fictional with 100 on injuries as well. Again, my highest was 468, and then the great majority between 400-410.

Front Office Midget

11-17-2006, 04:23 PM

To make sure everyone knows, my injuries were on 200 with Yabanci's player file when Alexander got 550 carries. :)

yabanci

11-17-2006, 06:24 PM

The numbers obviously are high. Compared to the NFL, the top ten FOF RBs are carrying it on average about 40 times too many, with the top few way above what we've ever seen in the NFL. Total team rushes are a little high, but not by that much.

However, as SkyDog initially noted, the problem very likely might be that the AI is thinking more like a human FOF player and using the top backs heavily. In fact, what I'm seeing in my 6.0b testing is not much different than what I see in FOF2k4 multiplayer. In the eNFL, we've completed 11 seasons. The record for carries is 502 and we have a total of 27 players who have had more than 400 attempts in those 11 seasons. I looked at IHOF and they have 17 with more than 400 attempts in 10 (?) seasons.

For comparison, these are the average carries by the top ten league leaders in rush attempts:

NFL 2005: 340
NFL 2004: 335
NFL 2003: 345
NFL 2002: 328
NFL 2001: 325
FOF 6.0b 5 season avg: 380
2k4 MP 5 season avg: 361 (high 387)

Looking at all of this, it seems to me that there is a problem with the top few backs getting way too many carries. That's for sure. But on whole, while it's true that the AI is using RBs more heavily than NFL coaches do, so do human players when playing FOF. If the AI is indeed playing more like a human, that's a good thing. I think I'd rather have the AI play like a human FOF player than an NFL coach. After all, we are human FOF players, not NFL coaches, and I want the AI to take advantage of the same quirks in the game that we humans do.

I think if a tweak were made where a RB drops dead when he gets close to 475 carries, the averages would work out to what we've always seen humans do in 2k4 MP. Okay, maybe not drop dead, but have something that prevents the AI teams (and humans in MP) from having a RB productively carry the ball 475+ times per year.

CraigSca

11-17-2006, 07:36 PM

Agreed. If a tweak needs to be made, it should be a very small tweak. If there's a possibility of repercussions (unforeseen issues arising from this tweak), I'd actually prefer to leave it as is. This is definitely not a deal-breaker for me if a feature back is getting ~2 carries per game more than a typical NFL back.

Rizon

11-17-2006, 08:47 PM

Front Office Midget

11-17-2006, 10:29 PM

I'm sure it will fixed. It's seemed to me somewhat a habit over the years to me, that Jim will change something in the game, except when he fixes it, it goes too far in the opposite direction (now RBs are getting TOO MANY carries, instead of too few as the main back), and then he fixes it. So hopefully the last step will happen here again.

wade moore

11-18-2006, 06:22 AM

I think if a tweak were made where a RB drops dead when he gets close to 475 carries, the averages would work out to what we've always seen humans do in 2k4 MP. Okay, maybe not drop dead, but have something that prevents the AI teams (and humans in MP) from having a RB productively carry the ball 475+ times per year.

Fatigue. Players who are overused could become tired and less able to do their best in the next contest.

This feature is listed on the New Features list on the Solecismic Web Page.

So... The good thing is, what you're asking for appears to be there already. I would just argue that it doesn't appear to have a low enough threshold for "overused".

Shkspr

11-18-2006, 06:44 AM

This feature is listed on the New Features list on the Solecismic Web Page.

So... The good thing is, what you're asking for appears to be there already. I would just argue that it doesn't appear to have a low enough threshold for "overused".

Unless it's a case where the running back is in fact fatigued, and the AI continues to overuse him anyway because they still perceive him to be a better option than his backup (the Cal Ripken Effect).

Ben E Lou

11-18-2006, 06:50 AM

Unless it's a case where the running back is in fact fatigued, and the AI continues to overuse him anyway because they still perceive him to be a better option than his backup (the Cal Ripken Effect).This, and yabanci's, are both very good points. If the AI's fatigued 70/70 RB is still better than their 40/40 back, then by all means. When you got a hoss, you RIDE him! Yeah, maybe fatigue could use a small tweak to help with this, or maybe endurance could be lowered a hair for the best backs, but given the system in which we're working, I'd much rather see the AI use their best weapons more frequenty--just like we do.

wade moore

11-18-2006, 06:58 AM

This, and yabanci's, are both very good points. If the AI's fatigued 70/70 RB is still better than their 40/40 back, then by all means. When you got a hoss, you RIDE him! Yeah, maybe fatigue could use a small tweak to help with this, or maybe endurance could be lowered a hair for the best backs, but given the system in which we're working, I'd much rather see the AI use their best weapons more frequenty--just like we do.

Well, unless there is a limitation that prevents US from doing so also. That is what it would have to be.. I don't perceive this as something where AI gameplanning would need to be changed for that reason... This should be something that effects humans and AI equally...

It's why I say that some humans might not like any changes made ;)...

Ben E Lou

11-18-2006, 07:04 AM

It's why I say that some humans might not like any changes made ;)...You're right about that. Inevitably, the argument in MP is "I run my team. If I want to give my #1 RB the ball EVERY SINGLE TIME, I should be able to do so, even if he's dog-tired!" There's not much more frustrating than 3rd and 1 at a key point in the game, and your #2 RB is in there because your big, bad, hoss of a #1 is taken out automatically due to fatigue. In real life, even if he was dog-tired, you'd call time out to give him a breather and then give him the rock.

wade moore

11-18-2006, 07:08 AM

You're right about that. Inevitably, the argument in MP is "I run my team. If I want to give my #1 RB the ball EVERY SINGLE TIME, I should be able to do so, even if he's dog-tired!" There's not much more frustrating than 3rd and 1 at a key point in the game, and your #2 RB is in there because your big, bad, hoss of a #1 is taken out automatically due to fatigue. In real life, even if he was dog-tired, you'd call time out to give him a breather and then give him the rock.

Yup. It's why, much to the chagrine of some posters around here, I don't know that this is a problem that Solecismic SHOULD fix. Because in my view, if we can do it, the AI should be able to do it.

*I* would like to see it more realistic, but for the product and customer base as a whole, I don't know that whether it's a good idea for Solecismic to fix or not - he'll have to decide which group he should design it towards - and likely fall in the middle somewhere.

VPI97

11-18-2006, 07:29 AM

I don't know if the disparity between the game and the NFL is as much about a 'fatigue' setting as it is about the impossibility of a computer program to replicate real life coaching decisions. When you look at a guy like Larry Johnson and see that his number of carries in a game this season ranges from 15 to 39, it boggles my mind how to get that kind of variance into the game. Do we want the AI to make dramatic game plan shifts from game to game? Maybe the game should try to 'ride the hot hand' if a power running team has a QB that's playing great. I see those things as one of the reasons that NFL backs have such a variance in their number of carries from game to game...not just fatigue. Of course, if Jim were to attempt to put some logic like that into the system, he would then get hit with complaints about RB's not getting the ball enough in certain games. It's a no-win situation for a developer...I hope he doesn't waste time trying to figure it out when there are other things he could be thinking about.

Just for reference, here are the NFL's leading carriers through nine weeks and their min/max of carries in a game:
Larry Johnson - 217 total - 15 min/39 max
Edgerrin James - 200 total - 13 min/36 max
Chester Taylor - 193 total - 10 min/31 max
Tiki Barber - 191 total - 14 min/27 max
Ladanian Tomllinson - 190 total - 13 min/31 max
Thomas Jones - 189 total - 11 min/30 max

wade moore

11-18-2006, 07:31 AM

Good point VPI... again this revolves around allowing the human players to do what they want. If they can do it, the AI should be able to do it - and that's what is happening here.

Ben E Lou

11-18-2006, 07:32 AM

Larry Johnson - 217 total - 15 min/39 max
Edgerrin James - 200 total - 13 min/36 max
Chester Taylor - 193 total - 10 min/31 max
Tiki Barber - 191 total - 14 min/27 max
Ladanian Tomllinson - 190 total - 13 min/31 max
Thomas Jones - 189 total - 11 min/30 maxHoly CRAP, that gameplanning AI is dynamic!

Ben E Lou

11-18-2006, 07:47 AM

Just for reference, here are the NFL's leading carriers through nine weeks and their min/max of carries in a game:
Larry Johnson - 217 total - 15 min/39 max
Edgerrin James - 200 total - 13 min/36 max
Chester Taylor - 193 total - 10 min/31 max
Tiki Barber - 191 total - 14 min/27 max
Ladanian Tomllinson - 190 total - 13 min/31 max
Thomas Jones - 189 total - 11 min/30 maxActually, a quick look at the >350 guys in my most recent FOF2K7 season surprised the heck out of me. They have wide deltas, too:

Curtis Pollack--434 total--14 min/38 max
Hugh Warren--403 total--11 min/35 max
Rodney Stephenson--392 total--8 min/36 max
Kurt Thomas--377 total--14 min/37 max
Ted Gerhardt--375 total--11 min/35 max
Floyd D'Ottavio--371 total--13 min/34 max
Tommie Fleming--367 total--14 min/33 max

VPI97

11-18-2006, 08:09 AM

Curtis Pollack--434 total--14 min/38 max
Hugh Warren--403 total--11 min/35 max
Rodney Stephenson--392 total--8 min/36 max
Kurt Thomas--377 total--14 min/37 max
Ted Gerhardt--375 total--11 min/35 max
Floyd D'Ottavio--371 total--13 min/34 max
Tommie Fleming--367 total--14 min/33 max
I'm thinking that I didn't give Jim enough credit here...I wonder about the players that guys are reporting getting 500+ carries. Is it a case of them having deltas in the 20/45 range, or is it a case of them getting 35 carries week in and week out?

BradS

11-18-2006, 08:17 AM

I'll contribute what I have.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m219/BradS_62/Rushingleaders.png

S. Alexander--355--tot.--11min/40max
W. Dunn--340--tot.--13min/29max
C. Portis--334--tot.--14min/27max
W. Parker--332--tot.--8min/29max
W. McGahee--327--tot.--12min/26max

Although a small sample but 355 is tops and a number i can definately live with.

BigPitt

11-18-2006, 10:20 AM

Looks about perfect.

Is that with the "B" patch for 2007?

Mike Lowe

11-18-2006, 11:08 AM

So if I change my injury rating from 100 to 200, even though I am in the 3rd week of the regular season, it will update my league?

Just trying to avoid starting over. Thanks.

Phototropic

11-18-2006, 01:08 PM

Vinatieri for Prez

11-18-2006, 02:14 PM

This sounds like the AI exploiting the AI. I have no probem with this. Equal playing field.

yabanci

11-18-2006, 02:25 PM

So if I change my injury rating from 100 to 200, even though I am in the 3rd week of the regular season, it will update my league?

Just trying to avoid starting over. Thanks.

don't need to start over. Injury settings take effect immediately.

azjoe_02

11-18-2006, 02:26 PM

This is using 6.0b with injuries at 200. Alexander's low was 22 (twice) with a high of 34 (twice) except for four straight weeks where he went 40, 43, 40, 40. Morris had 46 carries on the year.

Checking the box scores and logs for the 40+ games, it looks like they were 20-30 point blowouts where Alexander was running the clock for most of the second half and he was getting nearly all the carries as opposed to a backup.

This sounds like the AI exploiting the AI. I have no probem with this. Equal playing field.

I couldn't agree more. This is what human players would do.

I am in only my 1st season with 6.0b with injuries at 200, so I don't have any data to check and confirm that this is the case with most (or all) of the high carry games.

Front Office Midget

11-18-2006, 05:04 PM

In Alexander's 550 carry-season, his low games were 28, 29, 28, 27, and 23. His highs were 40 and 52. Every other game was in the 30's.

BigPitt

11-18-2006, 06:34 PM

In my opinion the 550 carries in a year is WAY out of line.

I can appreciate that some HH players want something like this but is just not realistic. And thats what FOF is all about.

Now if it takes an option to satisfy both types of people for this game then that should not be too hard to due. Hpoefully that can be adressed in a quick fix patch.

While on the subject of fixes. Don't you guys think the "kick-penalty" stat recording bug needs attention. Maybe not a big item but for a stat based game it detracts from realism.

BigPitt

11-18-2006, 06:35 PM

Woops - my mistake. It was 504 carries.
Even so - not too many should exceed 350.

yabanci

11-18-2006, 06:59 PM

I couldn't agree more. This is what human players would do.

I am in only my 1st season with 6.0b with injuries at 200, so I don't have any data to check and confirm that this is the case with most (or all) of the high carry games.

And human players in a baseball sim might like their sluggers to hit 98 home runs. Human players in a soccer sim might like thier strikers to score 12 goals in a game. But at some point, reality has to be imposed into a sports sim. Only four players in NFL history have carried it more than 400 times, with an all time high of 410. That's not just a coincidence. If the Lions could have run Barry Sanders 550 times, they would have, but it's physically not possible. This isn't Madden. Just because you want to do the impossible doesn't mean you should be able to do it. High endurance is not a magic power that allows superhuman feats, regardless of how much the human (or the AI) wants to rack up silly stats. At least it shouldn't be in a serious sports sim.

When players routinely break the all time record by 135%, something somewhere is wrong. To compare it with baseball, 135% of the all time home run record is 98 home runs. If a baseball sim had players routinely hitting 85-98 home runs, I can't imagine any serious text simmer* denying that something was wrong, despite the fact that some people out there would get a thrill seeing their #4 hitter slug 95 home runs with 260 RBIs every year

* serious text simmer does not include the fanboys who would see nothing wrong with it, saying, "well, people wanted to see more home runs. This is great!! Thanks, developer! I love you! Please be my friend!"

azjoe_02

11-18-2006, 09:08 PM

And human players in a baseball sim might like their sluggers to hit 98 home runs. Human players in a soccer sim might like thier strikers to score 12 goals in a game. But at some point, reality has to be imposed into a sports sim. Only four players in NFL history have carried it more than 400 times, with an all time high of 410. That's not just a coincidence. If the Lions could have run Barry Sanders 550 times, they would have, but it's physically not possible. This isn't Madden. Just because you want to do the impossible doesn't mean you should be able to do it. High endurance is not a magic power that allows superhuman feats, regardless of how much the human (or the AI) wants to rack up silly stats. At least it shouldn't be in a serious sports sim.

When players routinely break the all time record by 135%, something somewhere is wrong. To compare it with baseball, 135% of the all time home run record is 98 home runs. If a baseball sim had players routinely hitting 85-98 home runs, I can't imagine any serious text simmer* denying that something was wrong, despite the fact that some people out there would get a thrill seeing their #4 hitter slug 95 home runs with 260 RBIs every year

* serious text simmer does not include the fanboys who would see nothing wrong with it, saying, "well, people wanted to see more home runs. This is great!! Thanks, developer! I love you! Please be my friend!"

I see your point yabanci...But, I wasn't saying I was OK with getting 550 carries a season, but that I was OK with the fact that the starting RB was getting the *extra carries* in blowouts...that is how the human player would "exploit" the AI. If there is a choice between the AI being tweaked to not allow this type of overloading the RB's then I am all for it. But if not, I would rather have the AI exploit this as well as the human vs. only the human. BTW I am not a fanboy (not sure if you were implying that or not). ;)

Shkspr

11-18-2006, 10:16 PM

BTW I am not a fanboy (not sure if you were implying that or not). ;)

Compared to yabanci we're all fanboys. :p

yabanci

11-18-2006, 10:47 PM

I see your point yabanci...But, I wasn't saying I was OK with getting 550 carries a season, but that I was OK with the fact that the starting RB was getting the *extra carries* in blowouts...that is how the human player would "exploit" the AI. If there is a choice between the AI being tweaked to not allow this type of overloading the RB's then I am all for it. But if not, I would rather have the AI exploit this as well as the human vs. only the human. BTW I am not a fanboy (not sure if you were implying that or not). ;)

yeah, sorry, the whole post was not really directed so much at your comment but at the idea in general. And there's only one fanboy here who sticks out like a sore thumb. Didn't intend to imply that you were one at all.

cartman

11-18-2006, 11:02 PM

And human players in a baseball sim might like their sluggers to hit 98 home runs. Human players in a soccer sim might like thier strikers to score 12 goals in a game. But at some point, reality has to be imposed into a sports sim. Only four players in NFL history have carried it more than 400 times, with an all time high of 410. That's not just a coincidence. If the Lions could have run Barry Sanders 550 times, they would have, but it's physically not possible. This isn't Madden. Just because you want to do the impossible doesn't mean you should be able to do it. High endurance is not a magic power that allows superhuman feats, regardless of how much the human (or the AI) wants to rack up silly stats. At least it shouldn't be in a serious sports sim.

When players routinely break the all time record by 135%, something somewhere is wrong. To compare it with baseball, 135% of the all time home run record is 98 home runs. If a baseball sim had players routinely hitting 85-98 home runs, I can't imagine any serious text simmer* denying that something was wrong, despite the fact that some people out there would get a thrill seeing their #4 hitter slug 95 home runs with 260 RBIs every year

* serious text simmer does not include the fanboys who would see nothing wrong with it, saying, "well, people wanted to see more home runs. This is great!! Thanks, developer! I love you! Please be my friend!"

Your comparison might carry more weight if you didn't have an obvious bias against someone here.

The examples you gave (98 HRs in baseball, 12 goals a game in soccer) are so far outside the norm that it is laughable. As the person you have so little respect for showed, the number of carries for a team is well in line with NFL numbers. The number of extra carries for a single back is in the 3 to 5 extra carries per game for an entire season realm. So far, it seems that this 550 carries in a season is an aberration, not something that is occurring every season.

My question to you, if it wasn't Wade that made the response, would you have been so venomous in your replies?

yabanci

11-19-2006, 02:54 AM

Your comparison might carry more weight if you didn't have an obvious bias against someone here.

The examples you gave (98 HRs in baseball, 12 goals a game in soccer) are so far outside the norm that it is laughable. As the person you have so little respect for showed, the number of carries for a team is well in line with NFL numbers. The number of extra carries for a single back is in the 3 to 5 extra carries per game for an entire season realm. So far, it seems that this 550 carries in a season is an aberration, not something that is occurring every season.

My question to you, if it wasn't Wade that made the response, would you have been so venomous in your replies?

Which would you say is farther outside the norm? 555 carries or 98 home runs? Both are 35% higher than the all-time records.

Only one running back has carried the ball more than 407 times in the last 22 years. It's rare that you sim a season without doing that.

As for an aberation, I pulled out the official player file, set x-factor on, injuries to 200, simmed one season. Top ten rushers:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5863/top10bq1.jpg

So the aberration theory doesn't hold up. Sim one season and break both the single season carries record and the single season rushing yards record. Sim one season and you have four guys do what only one running back has done in the last 22 years.

Not a game-breaking problem, but obviously there's a problem. It's the law of unintended consequences. Two things were markedly improved: (1) high endurance running backs are no longer being kept on the bench (that's good); (2) the AI teams seem to be playing more to their strengths (also good). But, the unintended consequence is high endurance RBs are now running off the charts, way outside the realm of realism (that's bad). You can't argue with the facts. I suspect it will get corrected. It always has in the past. But denial and playing pals won't improve the game. This is all stating the obvious.

Vinatieri for Prez

11-19-2006, 03:01 AM

Y, I don't consider "carries" to be any type of record. Rushing yards, touchdowns, catches, passing yards -- those are records to care about. A better analogy you would be making is a pitchers in a baseball sim throwing 120 pitches on average instead of 107. And certainly not the holy grail home run record.

Would I like it more accurate. Yes. Does it matter much in the grand scheme of things. No.

Ben E Lou

11-19-2006, 06:45 AM

The variance in maxcarries I'm seeing in this thread is stunning, and has bothered me from the start. Some people are seeing 550ish, while others (like me, mature career, 10 years with 6.0b), are seeing maxcarries not even get to 440. What's going on here? A few possibilities...

X-Factor? When it is on, I wonder if some backs with already-high endurance get a bit of a boost.
Stadiums? I'd be willing to bet that this is a factor. If you level the economic playing field at the start of a career, playing in all those VG stadiums has *got* to be an injury-reducing agent.
Roster Sets? I know that some tests have been run with default, but I wonder if some have been done with non-game roster sets. Those could have some imbalances.
Early-Career Issues? A curioisty in FOF2K4, that I believe has carried forward to FOF2K7, is that stats usually take a few seasons to stabilize more closely to NFL norms. Things seem to be generally at their best when most of the league came in throught the rookie draft. I know that in my longest test career (started with 6.0, and continued with both patches) has run the last 10 seasons with 6.0b, and has yet to see a back get 440 carries.
Dynamic AI Gameplanning When Ahead?--I was trying to isolate a few things earlier this morning, and started up around 30 careers from scratch and ran season one. On one set of settings, I started up the same season with the same settings 10 times, and got maxcarries ranging from the 370's to the 480's.

SOME/ALL OF THE ABOVE???--Since it isn't happening every time or all the time, I wonder if the guys in the 550s are a little of everything, a combination of a high-endurance back getting an X-factor endurance boost playing in stadiums that aren't conducive to injuries on a team that wins a lot.

I just started up a fresh 6.0b career on a machine that I've not added any mods to at all yet, other than one of Todd's logo sets, and I'm going to see what happens with various stats in it as things progress, and take a gander at the guys who are getting higher carries.

Ben E Lou

11-19-2006, 07:03 AM

I wonder if the guys in the 550s are a little of everything, a combination of a high-endurance back getting an X-factor endurance boost playing in stadiums that aren't conducive to injuries on a team that wins a lot.I'm in 2010 (level economic playing field start), and just saw my first big-carry guy. NY has a back who was in the original preference draft who got 482 carries. They went 12-4 that year, and averaged a 17-point spread in their 12 wins. Here's his log:

<table border="1" bordercolor="#9d0507" width="90%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#9d0507"><td colspan="4" align="center">2010 Regular Season (12-4)</td><td align="center">Passing</td><td align="center">Rushing</td><td align="center">Receiving</td><td align="center">Attendance</td><td align="center">Log/Box</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="center">Week 1</td><td align="center">34</td><td>Philadelphia Condors (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/21schedule.html)</td><td align="center">10</td><td>A.Melino 13-21-170</td><td>J.Garcia 40-157</td><td>N.Long 2-57</td><td align="center">59,300</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010052118.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010052118.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#dcdce4"><td align="center">Week 2</td><td align="center">38</td><td>Tennessee Raftsmen (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/28schedule.html)</td><td align="center">14</td><td>A.Melino 16-24-173</td><td>J.Garcia 39-124</td><td>N.Long 3-73</td><td align="center">60,300</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010062818.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010062818.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="center">Week 3</td><td align="center">31</td><td>at Atlanta Raptors (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/1schedule.html)</td><td align="center">34</td><td>A.Melino 29-43-436</td><td>J.Garcia 10-64</td><td>N.Long 11-281</td><td align="center">78,600</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010071801.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010071801.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#dcdce4"><td align="center">Week 4</td><td colspan="3" align="center">Bye Week</td><td colspan="5">
</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="center">Week 5</td><td align="center">26</td><td>Dallas Lone Stars (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/7schedule.html)</td><td align="center">24</td><td>A.Melino 34-55-435</td><td>J.Garcia 20-89</td><td>O.Eyer 8-151</td><td align="center">59,300</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010090718.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010090718.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#dcdce4"><td align="center">Week 6</td><td align="center">14</td><td>at Detroit MoCats (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/9schedule.html)</td><td align="center">11</td><td>A.Melino 26-34-250</td><td>J.Garcia 33-77</td><td>D.Spain 3-78</td><td align="center">56,700</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010101809.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010101809.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="center">Week 7</td><td align="center">27</td><td>Green Bay Green Wave (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/10schedule.html)</td><td align="center">0</td><td>A.Melino 15-22-164</td><td>J.Garcia 33-213</td><td>N.Long 2-55</td><td align="center">60,900</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010111018.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010111018.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#dcdce4"><td align="center">Week 8</td><td align="center">21</td><td>Chicago Bruins (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/5schedule.html)</td><td align="center">6</td><td>A.Melino 14-23-205</td><td>J.Garcia 34-137</td><td>D.Spain 4-79</td><td align="center">61,600</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010120518.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010120518.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="center">Week 9</td><td align="center">27</td><td>at Minnesota Norsemen (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/15schedule.html)</td><td align="center">21</td><td>A.Melino 27-34-409</td><td>J.Garcia 29-180</td><td>N.Long 8-152</td><td align="center">61,500</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010131815.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010131815.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#dcdce4"><td align="center">Week 10</td><td align="center">31</td><td>at Philadelphia Condors (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/21schedule.html)</td><td align="center">7</td><td>A.Melino 19-27-256</td><td>J.Garcia 43-190</td><td>D.Spain 5-87</td><td align="center">67,000</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010141821.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010141821.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="center">Week 11</td><td align="center">34</td><td>at Washington Landslides (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/29schedule.html)</td><td align="center">10</td><td>A.Melino 21-26-231</td><td>J.Garcia 29-118</td><td>G.Baumgartner 4-66</td><td align="center">54,800</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010151829.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010151829.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#dcdce4"><td align="center">Week 12</td><td align="center">10</td><td>Houston Apollos (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/31schedule.html)</td><td align="center">13</td><td>A.Melino 17-36-145</td><td>J.Garcia 24-154</td><td>J.Garcia 3-41</td><td align="center">61,600</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010163118.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010163118.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="center">Week 13</td><td align="center">10</td><td>Arizona Pioneers (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/0schedule.html)</td><td align="center">15</td><td>A.Melino 18-29-241</td><td>J.Garcia 20-65</td><td>G.Baumgartner 4-89</td><td align="center">61,600</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010170018.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010170018.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#dcdce4"><td align="center">Week 14</td><td align="center">20</td><td>at Indianapolis Stallions (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/11schedule.html)</td><td align="center">34</td><td>A.Melino 20-35-245</td><td>J.Garcia 19-89</td><td>R.Curtis 6-125</td><td align="center">60,000</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010181811.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010181811.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="center">Week 15</td><td align="center">37</td><td>Washington Landslides (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/29schedule.html)</td><td align="center">14</td><td>A.Melino 20-29-293</td><td>J.Garcia 31-128</td><td>J.Garcia 9-146</td><td align="center">61,600</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010192918.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010192918.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#dcdce4"><td align="center">Week 16</td><td align="center">21</td><td>at Jacksonville Cougars (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/12schedule.html)</td><td align="center">7</td><td>A.Melino 14-28-153</td><td>J.Garcia 38-174</td><td>N.Long 3-37</td><td align="center">44,900</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010201812.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010201812.html)</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="center">Week 17</td><td align="center">30</td><td>at Dallas Lone Stars (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/7schedule.html)</td><td align="center">7</td><td>A.Melino 21-26-220</td><td>J.Garcia 40-141</td><td>N.Long 7-60</td><td align="center">72,400</td><td>Log (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/log2010211807.html) Box (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/box2010211807.html)</td></tr></tbody></table>
18.25 carries per game in losses
34.08 carries per game in wins

Ben E Lou

11-19-2006, 07:05 AM

Dola:

What's VERY interesting (and perhaps telling) about that season is that even with the nice stadiums, the next-highest RB only had 341 carries.

Dutch

11-19-2006, 07:09 AM

I'm early in a career using the default player file. I'm in 2011.

Looking at the individual single-season records, there are two guys that stand out.

1. RB Ken Wihite, 461 carriers, 2010 (92 endurance in 2011)
2. RB Bucky Dromeshouser, 459 carries, 2010 (97 endurance in 2011)

Next on the list is

3. RB Lewis Burnett, 412 carriers, 2009 (81 endurance in 2011)
4. RB Cedric Benson, 411 carries, 2008 (49 endurance in 2011)
5. RB DeAngelo Williams, 399 carriers, 2010, (71 endurnace in 2011)

(BTW: Rushing Yardage Note - If you rush for more than 1,760 yards, your player card is immortalized by noting you have joined the "mile-run" club.)

Ben E Lou

11-19-2006, 07:16 AM

(BTW: Rushing Yardage Note - If you rush for more than 1,760 yards, your player card is immortalized by noting you have joined the "mile-run" club.)Yeah, there's a "Two-Mile Club" for QB's, too.

Front Office Midget

11-19-2006, 04:40 PM

SkyDog, Alexanders' 550-carry season was not using the X-Factor, not Level Economic Playing Field, Yabanci's roster set, 1st season, on a dominating Seattle team.

Eaglesfan27

11-19-2006, 05:14 PM

SkyDog, Alexanders' 550-carry season was not using the X-Factor, not Level Economic Playing Field, Yabanci's roster set, 1st season, on a dominating Seattle team.

I think the lack of subbing of starters in blowouts along with the combination of excellent clock killing strategy is contributing heavily to the inflated carry stats.

Ben E Lou

11-19-2006, 06:13 PM

Early-Career Issues? A curioisty in FOF2K4, that I believe has carried forward to FOF2K7, is that stats usually take a few seasons to stabilize more closely to NFL norms. Things seem to be generally at their best when most of the league came in throught the rookie draft. I know that in my longest test career (started with 6.0, and continued with both patches) has run the last 10 seasons with 6.0b, and has yet to see a back get 440 carries.Interesting stuff here with starting a new 15-season career. Here are the guys with >374 carries in each season:

2006: 463, 419, 399, 394, 393
2007: 436, 435, 402, 398, 375
2008: 450, 402, 401, 399, 393
2009: 499, 386
2010: 482
2011: 396, 395, 393
2012: 413, 399, 396
2013: 409
2014: 404, 401, 382
2015: 417, 401, 375
2016: None (maxcarries=351)
2017: None (maxcarries=344)
2018: 397
2019: None (maxcarries=372)
2020: 434, 389

I'll run a few more seasons, but based on what I'm used to seeing in FOF2K4, and so far in FOF2K7, I'd be willin' to bet that the max will stay in the 350-450 range the rest of the way, with maybe the occasional outlier. This career has had four seasons of 450 or more carries, and all four occurred in the first five years. I've always said that as long as things work themselves out for my longterm careers, I'm ok with a some aberrations in the first few seasons. It's much better than the alternative that I've seen in other games: stats that go out of whack once the original roster pool is gone, and remain out of whack.

Buccaneer

11-19-2006, 06:24 PM

Ben E Lou

11-19-2006, 06:41 PM

I've always been curious about that. What is the difference between the players the game creates at the beginning of the career vs the ones created 10 yrs in? Does the Grassy Knoll exist in that it typically creates players/rosters that are a little better than the ones created later?I doubt that there's any difference in the players that are created. Later in careers, though, we're seeing the combined effects of changes in cohesion, player development, top players getting injured, and other factors. It's a much more remarkable feat to get stats right in Season 15 than it is in Season 1, at least in my estimation. An initial roster set can be fine-tuned to fit exact position-by-position logarithmic talent distributions. 15 years in, the system has been subject to busts, booms, CEI's to top-tier players, early retirements, AI decisions to sit guys who therefore end up never developing, mentors, coordinators with varying abilities to help players develop, and more.

wade moore

11-19-2006, 06:42 PM

yeah, sorry, the whole post was not really directed so much at your comment but at the idea in general. And there's only one fanboy here who sticks out like a sore thumb. Didn't intend to imply that you were one at all.

I'm pretty confidant that this is directed at me, so if it's not ignore my rant below.

You take these stabs and jabs apparently without even READING what I wrote.

I've said that I think this is a problem, that I think it should be fixed, that it is an endurance issue and should be changed for both humans AND the AI.

I did put the caveat that some people may not like this, that Solecismic has to decide what they think is best for their company.

But, I've said that this is bad, I think it should be fixed, and I do not like the numbers this way.

Keep throwing your jabs out there, but I am fully admitting that I do not like the way that this works. Sorry if I'm able to understand that it might not make a good business decision to fix it. You are one of those people who think that appeasing you is much more important than having a successful business, well, you're an idiot for that. This is a business for Solecismic, it is not "let's make the perfect game for yabanci."

yabanci

11-19-2006, 11:24 PM

...You are one of those people who think that appeasing you is much more important than having a successful business, well, you're an idiot for that. This is a business for Solecismic, it is not "let's make the perfect game for yabanci."

Actually, I think it's pretty evident that Jim's success has been in creating realistic football simulations, not games with silly Madden-like stats for people who like superhuman players who can do the physically impossible. As far as I can tell, that hasn't changed. In any event, believe whatever you want. It's irrelevant.

DolphinFan1

11-20-2006, 12:35 AM

As someone already mentioned. People are comparing the stats to the NFL. We have combined run hundreds if not thousands of seasons in the various FOF games. The NFL has what... 40 plus seasons. You are going to have anomalies in the game. I think it will all even out. Just my opinion.

Front Office Midget

11-20-2006, 12:45 AM

I must say I'm not quite as alarmed at the RB Total Rushes as I was at first. That 550 carry season was insane, but it doesn't happen every year. I still think it needs a tad fixing, but it's not the worst thing ever. I'd rather see a Multiplayer Converter before a new patch. :P

Ben E Lou

11-20-2006, 05:57 AM

We have combined run hundreds if not thousands of seasons in the various FOF games.Correction: My guess is that we've collectively run into the hundreds of thousands with FOF2K4, and well into the thousands with FOF2K7. I'm sure I ran a few thousand with FOF2K4 by myself.

With FOF2K7, I've run...
a 25-year fastsim career with 6.0
a 35-year fastsim career with 6.0a/6.0b to just look at long-term stuff in general, roster building, etc.
a 20-year fastsim career with 6.0b yesterday to look at RB carries in the long-term
a 9-year career with 6.0/6.0a in which I was truly playing
a 5-year career with 6.0b that will probably be my long-term one
40 seasons of new gamestarts in 2006 to look at the impact of stadiums and X-factor on RB carries
20-30 seasons to begin my testing of how to implement the Run N Stunhttp://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/trademark.gifThat's somewhere in the ballpark of 150-160 seasons already from just one guy. ;)

wade moore

11-20-2006, 07:22 AM

Actually, I think it's pretty evident that Jim's success has been in creating realistic football simulations, not games with silly Madden-like stats for people who like superhuman players who can do the physically impossible. As far as I can tell, that hasn't changed. In any event, believe whatever you want. It's irrelevant.

Back at ya tiger.

BigPitt

11-20-2006, 09:46 AM

To make everyone happy the game needs some Maximum Football customizing options.:)

BigPitt

11-20-2006, 09:48 AM

What I really would like to see is a stat based baseball game where the all-time home run record would be 99. The top BA about .550 and maybe a 55 game winner. All about 35% above the real records.

cartman

11-20-2006, 10:00 AM

What I really would like to see is a stat based baseball game where the all-time home run record would be 99. The top BA about .550 and maybe a 55 game winner. All about 35% above the real records.

I'm sure if you created custom rosters with the attributes tweaked for certain players, then that would be entirely possible.

scoman

11-20-2006, 04:40 PM

Sorry if i missed it,but does anyone know if Jim has commented on this matter,or has any intention of fixing it,thanks.

yabanci

11-20-2006, 08:52 PM

Sorry if i missed it,but does anyone know if Jim has commented on this matter,or has any intention of fixing it,thanks.

no comment and no way to know for sure, but he's always fixed statistical anomalies in the past.

stevew

11-20-2006, 09:09 PM

stevew

11-20-2006, 09:12 PM

dola

May have been the game where Larry Johnson ended up doing it as well.

Bonegavel

11-21-2006, 05:23 AM

Into year 2011 in my league and each year there are a lot of players @ 350 carries and above. Not a deal breaker for me, but it would be nice if this was corrected downward a bit.

SunDevil

11-21-2006, 11:38 AM

I just read this and thought it was interesting, but do not know if this is something to add to the game.

Alexander has struggled all season, even when supposedly healthy. Running backs tend to take a substantial step back after having 370 carries in a season. Add Alexander as another data point supporting that theory. He has missed six games and averaged only 2.7 yards per carry. Alexander was hesitant at times and had few running lanes. He showed some flashes of his old form, but they were few and far between.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/11/21/ramblings/any-given-sunday/4575/

jbmagic

11-21-2006, 12:16 PM

During one game I was listening to a year or so ago, they commented that in NFL History no back had carried the ball 30 straight times in 3 games(i believe). Other than Julius Jones and Earl Campbell.

I heard the samething. That is amazing not many have done it.

But with exrtreme gameplanning, Human has a big advantage over AI to have their RB carry the ball a lot per game.

I wish their was a limit on how extreme human can make their gameplanning especially for Single Play.

Eaglesfan27

11-21-2006, 01:19 PM

I wish their was a limit on how extreme human can make their gameplanning especially for Single Play.

There is. It is called self-control (if you think extreme plans are a problem.)

yabanci

11-21-2006, 07:45 PM

I just read this and thought it was interesting, but do not know if this is something to add to the game.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/11/21/ramblings/any-given-sunday/4575/

The full study was published in Pro Football Prospectus 2006, the book by the Football Outsiders guys. It's in the Seahawks section and was prompted by Shaun Alexander's 370 carries last year. They looked at every running back who has run the ball 370 times or more and discovered that it had ruined the careers of nearly every player, Eric Dickerson being the main exception. They looked that the data and predicted the same thing would happen to Shaun Alexander. As expected, he's missed six games and is averaging 2.7 YPC. Including postseason carries, two other RBs had 370+ carries last year: Clinton Portis with 384, four injuries and IR'd after 8 games this year; Edgerrin James with 373, YPC has droped from 4.2 to 3.1 this year.

For those who don't have the book, here is the opening of the essay:

"370 Carries Revisited

We've developed a number of theories that come up again and again, both on our website and in Pro Football Prospectus.
One of them, the 370-Carry Theory, goes like this: 'unless he is named Eric Dickerson, a running back with 370 or more carries during the regular season will usually suffer either a major injury or loss of effectiveness the following year.'
Some recent examples include Curtis Martin's colapse last year, Jamal Lewis's struggles for the last two years, and Ricky Williams falling from 4.8 yards per carry in 2002 to 3.5 yards per carry in 2003. Terrell Davis, Jamal Lewis, and Edgerin James each tore his ACL a year after going over 370 carries. The 370 carry barrier helped destroy the careers of Early Campbell, Barry Foster, and Gerald Riggs...."

[summarizing some examples:]

Terrell Davis: 392 carries at 5.1 YPC in 1998; missed 12 games in 1999 rushed for 3.1 YPC, missed 11 games in 2000 and rushed for 3.6 YPC, and missed 4 games in 2001, after which he retired at age 29

Eddie George: 403 carries for 1509 yards in 2000; never again was an effective player, YPCs of 3.0, 3.4, 3.3, and 3.3 in following years the 370+ year.

Thurman Thomas: 418 carries (incl postseason) in 1993, continued to play well but never again was able to carry the ball 300 times in a season.

Joe Morris: 414 carries (incl postseason) in 1986; YPC plummeted from 4.4 to 3.4 in the following year and by 1989 his career was over due to nerve damage and broken bones in his feet.

Jamal Lewis: 412 carries (incl postseas) in 2000, tore ACL next season; 389 carries with 5.2 YPC in 2003, followed by injuries every year and YPCs of 4.3, 3.4, 3.5;

Earl Campbell: 373 carries at 5.2 YPC in 1980, then missed and average of 7 games per year over the next four years with YPC drops to 3.8, 3.4, 4.0, 3.8, 2.9, and 4.1 before retiring.

Natrone Means: 400 carries (incl postseason) in 1994; never again played a full season and retired at age 28.

Dorsey Levins: 400 carries (inc postseason) in 1997, played only 7 games following year with YPC drop from 4.4 to 3.3 and never again had 100 carries in a season after 1999.

Curt Warner: 395 carries (incl postseason) in 1983, blew out knee in first game of 1984 and was out for the season.

They found that players with 390+ carries (postseason rushes included) averaged a 33% drop in rushing yards in the following year and 11% drop in YPC.

TroyF

11-21-2006, 07:51 PM

I cited the article plenty when people were drafting Alexander #1 in fantasy leagues. I thought it was a huge mistake and that anyone who did it was asking for serious trouble. He's a wonderful player, but he took a beating last year. He was never considered the toughest runner or the guy with the biggest heart in the league either. There was no doubt in my mind he would take a massive nosedive this year, even worse than the FO numbers indicated they would.

st.cronin

11-21-2006, 08:07 PM

Eric Dickerson was the man.

SunDevil

11-21-2006, 08:34 PM

Thanks for the info yabanci. I am going to have to get that book.

Mike Lowe

11-21-2006, 08:48 PM

The full study was published in Pro Football Prospectus 2006, the book by the Football Outsiders guys. It's in the Seahawks section and was prompted by Shaun Alexander's 370 carries last year. They looked at every running back who has run the ball 370 times or more and discovered that it had ruined the careers of nearly every player, Eric Dickerson being the main exception. They looked that the data and predicted the same thing would happen to Shaun Alexander. As expected, he's missed six games and is averaging 2.7 YPC. Including postseason carries, two other RBs had 370+ carries last year: Clinton Portis with 384, four injuries and IR'd after 8 games this year; Edgerrin James with 373, YPC has droped from 4.2 to 3.1 this year.

For those who don't have the book, here is the opening of the essay:

"370 Carries Revisited

We've developed a number of theories that come up again and again, both on our website and in Pro Football Prospectus.
One of them, the 370-Carry Theory, goes like this: 'unless he is named Eric Dickerson, a running back with 370 or more carries during the regular season will usually suffer either a major injury or loss of effectiveness the following year.'
Some recent examples include Curtis Martin's colapse last year, Jamal Lewis's struggles for the last two years, and Ricky Williams falling from 4.8 yards per carry in 2002 to 3.5 yards per carry in 2003. Terrell Davis, Jamal Lewis, and Edgerin James each tore his ACL a year after going over 370 carries. The 370 carry barrier helped destroy the careers of Early Campbell, Barry Foster, and Gerald Riggs...."

[summarizing some examples:]

Terrell Davis: 392 carries at 5.1 YPC in 1998; missed 12 games in 1999 rushed for 3.1 YPC, missed 11 games in 2000 and rushed for 3.6 YPC, and missed 4 games in 2001, after which he retired at age 29

Eddie George: 403 carries for 1509 yards in 2000; never again was an effective player, YPCs of 3.0, 3.4, 3.3, and 3.3 in following years the 370+ year.

Thurman Thomas: 418 carries (incl postseason) in 1993, continued to play well but never again was able to carry the ball 300 times in a season.

Joe Morris: 414 carries (incl postseason) in 1986; YPC plummeted from 4.4 to 3.4 in the following year and by 1989 his career was over due to nerve damage and broken bones in his feet.

Jamal Lewis: 412 carries (incl postseas) in 2000, tore ACL next season; 389 carries with 5.2 YPC in 2003, followed by injuries every year and YPCs of 4.3, 3.4, 3.5;

Earl Campbell: 373 carries at 5.2 YPC in 1980, then missed and average of 7 games per year over the next four years with YPC drops to 3.8, 3.4, 4.0, 3.8, 2.9, and 4.1 before retiring.

Natrone Means: 400 carries (incl postseason) in 1994; never again played a full season and retired at age 28.

Dorsey Levins: 400 carries (inc postseason) in 1997, played only 7 games following year with YPC drop from 4.4 to 3.3 and never again had 100 carries in a season after 1999.

Curt Warner: 395 carries (incl postseason) in 1983, blew out knee in first game of 1984 and was out for the season.

They found that players with 390+ carries (postseason rushes included) averaged a 33% drop in rushing yards in the following year and 11% drop in YPC.

Hold the phone...this is one of the most biased things I've ever read. What are the statistics on RBs who do NOT get 370+ carries per year? I'm not saying it is the same because I have no idea but I'm willing to bet there are similarities.

Also, isn't this a simple case of probability? The more carries a RB gets the more likely he is to become injured.

CraigSca

11-21-2006, 09:23 PM

I'll play devil's advocate as well. This almost smells of the sophomore jinx. Could this really just be an issue of regressing to the mean as opposed to some 370 carry "ceiling"?

Was the study definitive?

yabanci

11-21-2006, 09:33 PM

Hold the phone...this is one of the most biased things I've ever read. What are the statistics on RBs who do NOT get 370+ carries per year? I'm not saying it is the same because I have no idea but I'm willing to bet there are similarities.

Also, isn't this a simple case of probability? The more carries a RB gets the more likely he is to become injured.

According to the study, on average, runnning backs with 300-369 and no postseason carries saw total yards drop by 15% the following year and yards per carry by just 2%. In comparison, those with 370+ carries dropped 33% in total yards and an 11% in yards per carry.

It's not a simple case of probability, but it is true that overworked running backs are more likely to suffer injuries and major loss of effectiveness in subsequent years. That's why you don't see running back carring the ball 400+ time per year, much less 550 or even 500.

Anyway, it's not my study. If you think it's the most biased thing you've ever read, write to Fooball Outsiders and tell them it's crap and prove them wrong. I suppose it would help to read the study as well.

CraigSca

11-21-2006, 09:46 PM

Interesting. 11% doesn't sound like much, but there's a huge difference between 4.4 yards per carry and 3.96.

I see they mentioned total yards and yards per carry - did they say what the delta is in number of carries?

yabanci

11-22-2006, 04:02 AM

Here's the new world record.

Emmitt Smith - rated 78/78 overall, 100 endurance.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1507/1992xm8.jpg

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1271/1992bse0.jpg

wade moore

11-22-2006, 05:43 AM

Is this happening with the out of the box rosters or just the roster files created by you?

The numbers seem off out of the box, but I don't think I've seen anything over about 425 or 440 out of the box - the 550 and 600 numbers seem to be coming from the roster files that you've created.

yabanci

11-22-2006, 06:01 AM

Northwood_DK

11-22-2006, 06:07 AM

But all the extreme running numbers come from custom-made rosters, correct?

Ben E Lou

11-22-2006, 06:08 AM

But all the extreme running numbers come from custom-made rosters, correct?It appears that the most extreme ones do.

Phototropic

11-22-2006, 06:15 AM

My 505 with Alexander was default rosters on my 2nd sim attempt.

Ben E Lou

11-22-2006, 06:19 AM

My 505 with Alexander was default rosters on my 2nd sim attempt.
Considering we're seeing 550-600+, I wouldn't consider 505 to be in the "most extreme."

yabanci

11-22-2006, 06:20 AM

Considering we're seeing 550-600+, I wouldn't consider 505 to be in the "most extreme."

This was posted earlier in the thread. Default rosters, injuries 200.

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5863/top10bq1.jpg

Ben E Lou

11-22-2006, 06:21 AM

This was posted earlier in the thread. Default rosters, injuries 200.

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5863/top10bq1.jpgYah, I know. I don't believe you.

yabanci

11-22-2006, 06:24 AM

Yah, I know. I don't believe you.

you've really got to be kidding me. Wow.

Ben E Lou

11-22-2006, 06:27 AM

No, I'm not. Based on my tests, I'm thinking you probably used the wrong roster set.

yabanci

11-22-2006, 06:32 AM

No, I'm not. Based on my tests, I'm thinking you probably used the wrong roster set.

you've got balls calling me a liar.

I just simmed again. Default rosters. here are the results. I'll send you the saved game if you want. Not hard to do.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7308/1ch5.jpg

Ben E Lou

11-22-2006, 06:39 AM

...and on the computer that I've never touched a single file I get...

http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/test.jpg

Incidentally, I'm not necessarily calling you a liar (although I must admit I haven't completely discounted the possibility). More likely, I know that it's easy for people like you to mess with rosters and game files and think that the one you're using is the default, when in actuality, it isn't. shurg

yabanci

11-22-2006, 06:48 AM

...and on the computer that I've never touched a single file I get...

Incidentally, I'm not necessarily calling you a liar (although I must admit I haven't completely discounted the possibility). More likely, I know that it's easy for people like you to mess with rosters and game files and think that the one you're using is the default, when in actuality, it isn't. shurg

Of course you can get that. You can get 550. You can get 500. You can get 450. You can get 400. You can get well under 400.

Denial and calling people liars when they show you something you don't want to see doesn't help anyone.

Ben E Lou

11-22-2006, 06:56 AM

Of course you can get that. You can get 550. You can get 500. You can get 450. You can get 400. You can get well under 400.

Denial and calling people liars when they show you something you don't want to see doesn't help anyone.I've done over 40 new gamestarts with default rosters, 6.0b, and have *never* gotten over 500 carries (got very close). Which seems more logical?

1. that a guy who messes with roster sets more than nearly anyone else around here got confused about which roster set he was using?

or

2. that a guy who messes with roster sets more than nearly anyone else just happened to do two consecutive new gamestarts with the EXACT SAME BACK getting 541 and 553 carries--more than 50% more than said back is getting in most of my test runs.

yabanci

11-22-2006, 07:08 AM

I've done over 40 new gamestarts with default rosters, 6.0b, and have *never* gotten over 500 carries (got very close). Which seems more logical?

1. that a guy who messes with roster sets more than nearly anyone else around here got confused about which roster set he was using?

or

2. that a guy who messes with roster sets more than nearly anyone else just happened to do two consecutive new gamestarts with the EXACT SAME BACK getting 541 and 553 carries--more than 50% more than said back is getting in most of my test runs.

I'm telling you I used the default roster. If you don't want to believe that, I can't really help you. If you are suggesting I doctored the file, then you can go fuck yourself.

Ben E Lou

11-22-2006, 07:20 AM

If you are suggesting I doctored the file, then you can go fuck yourself.Has the spirit of jbmagic taken over your reading comprehension skills??? No, I have not *completely* eliminated the possibility that you're doing something intentional just to be a jerk, but I've already said twice that I think it is much more likely that it's just plain ol' pebcak at work.

..a guy who messes with roster sets more than nearly anyone else around here got confused about which roster set he was using...

More likely, I know that it's easy for people like you to mess with rosters and game files and think that the one you're using is the default, when in actuality, it isn't.

Phototropic

11-22-2006, 07:25 AM

Considering we're seeing 550-600+, I wouldn't consider 505 to be in the "most extreme."
Maybe not, but I just felt it beneficial to clarify what my results were based upon as it might be of some help. The more information we have the better.

wade moore

11-22-2006, 07:28 AM

no, these aren't from roster files made by me. Nice effort, though.

fwiw, I wasn't trying to attack you. I know that you create a lot of commonly used historically files, and this was CLEARLY a historical file. It is pretty common knowledge that user created rosters can create anomolies based on talent distribution, etc. The only reason I put "created by you" is because I know that you are very good with creating the historical files (which are a benefit to the community btw).

At any rate, it was a legitimate question. Most (and possibly all) of the numbers I had seen to this point (missed the one that you pasted from earlier in the thread, I don't always catch all of the posts) seemed to be from user generated rosters.

So, mr. defensive, it was a completely legitimate question in trying to get our heads round the issue.

Bonegavel

11-22-2006, 07:58 AM

wade moore

11-22-2006, 08:03 AM

Are there too many plays from scrimmage which could be adding to this problem?

Nah. I think in this thread it's been pretty well accepted that this is an endurance issue, not a # plays issue. The team totals for attempts is pretty well in line with NFL numbers, it's the individual rush attempts that are off.

Northwood_DK

11-22-2006, 08:08 AM

Regardless of talent files, it seems the game should use the 370 rule since that seems to be the current ceiling in the NFL.

How hard would it be to test the total number of the previous year's carries and then penalize the player for the entire next year?

At the begining of the next season...

if(player.nTotalCarriesPreviousYear > 370){

player.CurrentStatsPenalize(1);
player.InjuryProne(1);

}

It seems that there should be an Eric Dickerson or 2 every X number of years or so, but the evidence seems pretty clear that most RBs don't go beyond 350 carries a year.

Are there too many plays from scrimmage which could be adding to this problem?

I’m not sure that is even a problem. Have anyone actually tested if these guys with extreme running numbers retire earlier or are more injury prone later in the career.

What you suggest will not prevent the extreme seasons some people are seeing now it will only secure that the same player don’t do it two seasons in a row.

Mike Lowe

11-22-2006, 08:11 AM

According to the study, on average, runnning backs with 300-369 and no postseason carries saw total yards drop by 15% the following year and yards per carry by just 2%. In comparison, those with 370+ carries dropped 33% in total yards and an 11% in yards per carry.

It's not a simple case of probability, but it is true that overworked running backs are more likely to suffer injuries and major loss of effectiveness in subsequent years. That's why you don't see running back carring the ball 400+ time per year, much less 550 or even 500.

Anyway, it's not my study. If you think it's the most biased thing you've ever read, write to Fooball Outsiders and tell them it's crap and prove them wrong. I suppose it would help to read the study as well.

Relax! Thanks for the info. Have a good holiday. I hope no one is sitting around reading/studying reports on RB carries tonight! Go to the bar!

Phototropic

11-22-2006, 08:13 AM

Relax! Thanks for the info. Have a good holiday. I hope no one is sitting around reading/studying reports on RB carries tonight! Go to the bar!
Time to change my plans! ;)

BigPitt

11-22-2006, 09:19 AM

Ben E Lou

11-22-2006, 09:23 AM

Lets face it. If this game is to represent real football it would be impossible for a back in the NFL to carry 550+ times a year. Ever.I disagree with that statement. It would be STUPID to do so, but if a coach and player were both hard-headed enough, he could do it. The player would certainly be ineffective.

BigPitt

11-22-2006, 10:35 AM

I'll add something to my statement.

It would be IMPOSSIBLE to carry 550+ times a year and average over 2,0 yards per carry; probably less.

And I'm not sure that 2.0 qualifer is necessary. That player would never last the season. He could not survive without injury. The more tired you get the more likely an injury. That is a know fact.

MizzouRah

11-22-2006, 10:52 AM

Hopefully buy now - and I haven't finished my first season yet - Jim knows this MIGHT be an issue and is looking at it.

dbd1963

11-22-2006, 10:55 AM

Yeah, this one is a bit of a bummer because I'll have to restart my league when it does get fixed, but hey -- I restart them all the time anyway.

I imagine in MP this would be a killer.

Bonegavel

11-22-2006, 01:35 PM

I disagree with that statement. It would be STUPID to do so, but if a coach and player were both hard-headed enough, he could do it. The player would certainly be ineffective.

Agreed.

And you know that current NFL coaches would give those players 500 plus touches a year if it was feasible. There is an obvious aversion (except in the cases above) to giving a single RB more than, roughly, 350 carries a season.

Seems that the game has figure out what Endurance gives most 1st string RBs 300-340 carries and make this the max endurance for just about all RBs with only the occasional END/Health that creates a Dickerson and make it a setting (checkbox or whatnot) where you can allow the game plan to push the RBs to hit higher numbers knowing that there is a chance it will hurt the player.

Northwood_DK

11-22-2006, 02:22 PM

I have just finished simming 50 seasons to get some numbers on this. I simmed 25 seasons with the original players file and 25 seasons with the yabanci player file and this is what I found.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
After 50 sims I only had one season with a player with over 500 carries. That was Shaun Alexander with 517 carries (from the yabanci file). The three highest was all recorded by Shaun Alexander from the yabanci file. The average player with the most carries had 450.7 rushing attempts pr season and in all seasons with over 475 rush attempts the player was Alexander.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The 50 sims also produced a total of 28 players with over 450 carries and they were split down the middle with 14 from each file. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
When looking at player with over 400 carries we start to see a difference. The original file produced 2.96 players pr season with over 400 carries while the yabanci file only had 1.56. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Going down to 350 carries or more the numbers say 8.28 pr season for the original file and 5.00 for the yabanci file.

[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]<TABLE style="WIDTH: 360pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=480 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 60pt" span=6 width=80><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80 height=17>Org file</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80>max</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80>Over 500</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80>Over 450</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; 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BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>8</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>15</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>452</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>10</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>16</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>[B]481[/B]</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>7</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>17</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>436</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>9</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>18</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>480</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>9</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>19</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>432</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>11</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>20</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>464</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>8</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>21</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>441</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>10</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>22</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>470</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>23</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>420</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>8</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>24</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>478</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18 x:num>25</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>447</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>10</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Avg</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="449.56" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(B2:B26)">449,56</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(C2:C26)">0,00</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.56" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(D2:D26)">0,56</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="2.96" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(E2:E26)">2,96</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="8.28" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(F2:F26)">8,28</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(C2:C26)">0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(D2:D26)">14</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(E2:E26)">74</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(F2:F26)">207</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Yab file</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">max</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Over 500</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Over 450</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Over 400</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Over 350</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>459</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>470</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>408</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>414</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>5</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>466</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>6</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>491</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>7</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>470</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>8</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>453</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>9</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>442</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>10</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>448</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>11</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>410</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>12</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>452</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>13</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>470</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>14</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>436</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>15</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>395</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>16</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>444</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>7</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>17</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>[B]514[/B]</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>18</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>474</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>19</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>444</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>7</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>20</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>492</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>21</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>485</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>22</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>479</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>23</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>478</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>24</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>386</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18 x:num>25</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>416</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>7</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Avg</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="451.84" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(B31:B55)">451,84</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.04" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(C31:C55)">0,04</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.56" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(D31:D55)">0,56</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="1.56" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(E31:E55)">1,56</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="5" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(F31:F55)">5,00</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(C31:C55)">1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(D31:D55)">14</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(E31:E55)">39</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(F31:F55)">125</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Tot avg</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="450.7" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(B31:B55,B2:B26)">450,7</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.02" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(C31:C55,C2:C26)">0,02</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.56" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(D31:D55,D2:D26)">0,56</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="2.26" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(E31:E55,E2:E26)">2,26</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="6.64" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(F31:F55,F2:F26)">6,64</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <o:p></o:p>[/FONT][/COLOR]
<o:p> </o:p>
[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]All sims was season 1 with x-factor and 150 injury setting. <o:p></o:p>[/FONT][/COLOR]

kcchief19

11-22-2006, 03:33 PM

One of them, the 370-Carry Theory, goes like this: 'unless he is named Eric Dickerson, a running back with 370 or more carries during the regular season will usually suffer either a major injury or loss of effectiveness the following year.'
For those of you who tire from my rants about misusing statistics, please look away. You've been warned. ;)

Personally, I subscribe to this theory. I don't include an Eric Dickerson exception because then you'd have to include a Ricky Williams, Ladanian Thomlinson, etc. Getting more than 370 attempts in a season is a warning sign, but it doesn't mean that every back who does it goes to pot and anyone making such a claim is foolish.

Since 1995, 12 players have carried more than 370 times in a season:

3 suffered an injury or major performance drop off the following season and their career was pretty much over (Curtis Martin, Terrell Davis, Jamal Anderson).

3 suffered a decline the following season, but continued putting up impressive numbers for their career following their down season (Jerome Bettis, Edgerrin James, Eddie George)

2 were suspended the following season, which had nothing to do with being injuried from carrying the ball 370 times and more to do with their love of weed or hoping to get action from women who love weed.

1 had fewer carries the following year but still ran for 1,600 yards and caught 100 passes (Thomlinson)

1 carried the ball more than 370 times the following season too
(Ricky Williams; Terrell Davis and Edgerrin James was one carry away from joining this club as well, rushing 369 times in the season before breaking the 370 barrier; Curtis Martin rushed for 368 and 367 times each earlier in his career and showed no ill effects the following seasons)

1 suffered no ill effects at all (Emmitt Smith)

1 too early to tell (Alexander)

How does that compare to the running back population of a whole? I imagine its comparable, but there is enough of a correlation to believe that there is some after effects. But the sample size is so small that it is inappropriate to say that 370 is definitely a career breaker.

kcchief19

11-22-2006, 03:51 PM

In terms of FOF, I've had nine 370-carry seasons by four different players in eight years -- the NFL has had 12 seasons in the last 11 years by 10 different players.

Based on my experiences and what I'm seeing from others, I think that FOF is more favorable toward workhorses -- there's no cumulative carryover from season to season -- and there might be a variance of .5 to 1 per game more than you would expect in real life. My top three seasons have been 421, 417 and 415 -- all others have been under 400. If those were toned down by a half carry per game, it wouldn't be awful.

But that's a minute adjustment that simly isn't worth it. As a fan of the game, this is something I don't want Jim tinkering with it -- there's nothing wrong with it.

I won't question anyone, but I will say that based on seeing a player get 500+ carries in back to back sims as mentioned earlier seems highly unlikely. While it's certainly possible, I think Ben was reasonable to ask if there was a possibility that the player file may inadvertently not bee the original player file, or that other modifications might make a difference.

One odd note -- in my 20-year test sim with injuries set to 100, I had only three seasons of attempts more than 370 -- 390, 382 and 380. Go figure.

cartman

11-24-2006, 12:56 PM

Lets face it. If this game is to represent real football it would be impossible for a back in the NFL to carry 550+ times a year. Ever.

So there should be some type of cap on the formula used that enables this to happen no matter what numbers are inserted in the rosters. The idea "garbage-in, garbage-out" cannot be allowed to take over and keep the game realistic. If realism is not part of the product then so be it. Just let that be known.

My feeling is that this was not the intention of the designer and there is some screw-up in the program that needs attention.

That sounds like something reasonable on the surface, but it just isn't practical. You can still create a custom roster that would fit within the parameters you suggest, and still have skewed statistics. If you have a few studs created on one team, and the rest of the players in the league set to near the minimum allowable settings, then you would still see stats that were out of whack. If the import process changes the stats that people input, they would complain that the game was making changes to what they wanted to create.

To have the sim engine put out accurate statistics that is was created to do, there is a talent distribution curve that needs to be followed. If people want to create their own rosters, they need to recognize the fact that the stats output might not accurately reflect real world stats.

Northwood_DK

11-24-2006, 03:00 PM

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1314055&postcount=151 (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1314055&postcount=151)<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Same test but now with 6.0c. This is the result of 25 seasons with the original player file and injury setting 150.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

In the 25 sims it happened 8 times that a player had over 150 carries (it was Shaun Alexander all 8 times). The numbers of player with over 400 carries pr season is down from 2.96 pr season to 1,28 and the number of players with 350+ carry seasons is also down.

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 360pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=480 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 60pt" span=6 width=80><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80 height=17></TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80>Max</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80 x:num>500</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80 x:num>450</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80 x:num>400</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80 x:num>350</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>416</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>434</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>412</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>410</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>7</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>5</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>474</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>6</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>464</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>7</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>418</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>8</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>458</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>9</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>419</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>10</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>424</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>7</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>11</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>412</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>7</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>12</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>445</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>13</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>415</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>14</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>421</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>15</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>481</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>16</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>428</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; 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BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>24</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>432</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18 x:num>25</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>426</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 2pt double; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Avg</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="437" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(B2:B26)">437,00</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(C2:C26)">0,00</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.32" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(D2:D26)">0,32</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="1.28" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(E2:E26)">1,28</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="5.28" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(F2:F26)">5,28</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(C2:C26)">0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(D2:D26)">8</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(E2:E26)">32</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=SUM(F2:F26)">132</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><O:p</O:p

BigPitt

11-24-2006, 07:30 PM

CraigSca

11-24-2006, 07:44 PM

I don't get it. If you pass on this - where are you going to go for a more statistically accurate career simulation?

Ben E Lou

11-24-2006, 07:46 PM

What's funny is that he whines about the carries reported with an injury setting that has been stated again and again to not be the most realistic.

MizzouRah

11-24-2006, 09:51 PM

scoman

11-24-2006, 10:07 PM

Fictional league with injurys at 200,i simmed 6 seasons,all seasons combined i had 4 guys over 400,with 464,424,409,441. 3 of the years produced highs of 395,371 and 379.Better than 6.0 b,but not at nfl standards quite yet.There does seem to be a difference between fictional rosters and real player rosters,with the real player rosters being a little closer to real life attempts.

kcchief19

11-24-2006, 10:41 PM

Well I guess if this is the closest to real numbers "C" patch can get I can pass on FOF07. Sorry but this is a killer for me.

In looking at three of the top runners in NFL history their highest season totals were Alexander 370, Emmit Smith 377 and Walter Payton 369. Yes I know there were higher numbers but the 495 above is still almost 25% above the NFL record.

The new features are not worth the inaccuracy. The cost of the game is not that great but I have tired supporting the types of games published in the past year or two.
Good. Now we don't have to hear you whine about a non-issue over a VERY minor statistical issue. I have no idea what you're looking for, but if you're problem is that using an injury setting that is not realistic results in about six running backs a year getting about one carry to many per game than is expected, then I can only imagine the meltdown you go into playing other football games. Madden must make you want to set your hair on fire and kill yourself.

Of course, given what you've show us thus far, I imagine you'll be one of the types who bitch and moan about how the game sucks and you'd never buy it, then roll in once a week with a complaint about the game you allegedly didn't buy.

AlexB

11-25-2006, 01:14 AM

Good. Now we don't have to hear you whine about a non-issue over a VERY minor statistical issue. I have no idea what you're looking for, but if you're problem is that using an injury setting that is not realistic results in about six running backs a year getting about one carry to many per game than is expected, then I can only imagine the meltdown you go into playing other football games. Madden must make you want to set your hair on fire and kill yourself.

Of course, given what you've show us thus far, I imagine you'll be one of the types who bitch and moan about how the game sucks and you'd never buy it, then roll in once a week with a complaint about the game you allegedly didn't buy.

Many a true word spoken in jest ;)

Northwood_DK

11-25-2006, 07:01 AM

With the injury setting set at 200 I’m now down to just 4 players breaking 450 carries in 25 simm-attempts and less then 5 players pr season with over 350 attempts.

I like the numbers and to call the a game-breaker is way out of proportion.

Northwood_DK

11-25-2006, 07:04 AM

I also want to clarifier that this is season 1 re-simmed 25 times and that don’t necessarily gives a correct picture. I believe that if I ran a season for 25 years the numbers would be even lower.<O:p</O:p

Ben E Lou

11-25-2006, 07:04 AM

Taking the Top 30 rushing attemps in the NFL last year you have:

(0) 500+
(0) 450-499
(0) 400-449
(4) 350-399
(6) 300-349
(7) 250-299
(7) 200-249
(11) 150-199

My first season with FOF 2k7(c):

(0) 500+
(0) 450-499
(0) 400-449
(6) 350-399
(7) 300-349
(9) 250-299
(10) 200-249
(9) 150-199

Teeny, tiny sample thus far.. but I'm ok with this type of statistics.

Todd, you play with "real" players usually, I know. One thing that has only been hinted at here is that a fictional start (which I usually use) is inherently unrealistic with regards to cohesion, injuries, and probably other factors, too. I've noticed that in my fictional leagues, I'm getting high carries early, but nothing over 420 once I get 10 seasons in or so. I just ran a quick test with 5 new gamestarts with 6.0c with the most "realistic" settings possible: no X-factor, Injuries=200, default rosters, default stadiums, and didn't have a single run with more than 2 backs breaking 370 carries.

Matt: I'm aware of and regret the potential effect of what I just posted, but if we're lucky, he's already gone for good and won't see it.

BigPitt

11-25-2006, 08:22 AM

Ben E Lou

11-25-2006, 08:30 AM

What a strange little man.

EagleFan

11-25-2006, 08:44 AM

Please don't feed the troll. :D

DolphinFan1

11-25-2006, 09:59 AM

Sounds like somebody needs some cheese with that whine.

MizzouRah

11-25-2006, 10:02 AM

Todd, you play with "real" players usually, I know. One thing that has only been hinted at here is that a fictional start (which I usually use) is inherently unrealistic with regards to cohesion, injuries, and probably other factors, too. I've noticed that in my fictional leagues, I'm getting high carries early, but nothing over 420 once I get 10 seasons in or so. I just ran a quick test with 5 new gamestarts with 6.0c with the most "realistic" settings possible: no X-factor, Injuries=200, default rosters, default stadiums, and didn't have a single run with more than 2 backs breaking 370 carries.

Matt: I'm aware of and regret the potential effect of what I just posted, but if we're lucky, he's already gone for good and won't see it.

Yep, and so far I'm happy with the stats the game produces. It's nice to know they normalize for you fictional players as well.

RedKingGold

11-25-2006, 10:43 AM

I'm a whinner too!!!!

DolphinFan1

11-25-2006, 11:14 AM

My only comment on this subject is this. I don't have a problem with stats being different than the NFL. This is a game. It is much closer than any other sports sim out there. The game does a good job with most of the stats. Plus, after playing a few seasons, you will get used to it and adjust. At least I will. I am just happy that I can play the game and not have scores 50-40 and such like Madden and have to play 5 minute quarters just to get stats somewhat realistic.

TroyF

11-25-2006, 11:16 AM

First off - I did not see that injuries were set to 100 in the stats show.

Second - I don't like being called a whinner. I'd be more than happy to meet anywhere in the USA with anyone wishing to do that to me face to face.

Third - SKYDOG is an idiot. And it seems he has a pack of 5-6 vultures following him on this board. My apologies to the 95% here who have some class.

You know something? The running back carries thing bothered me a bit as well, especially because I don't like having to play with realistic injuries. So knowing that with the injuries sitting on 100, there are a lot of guys craching 400+ is bothersome. That's why I let the people who test these things out get to work on it. (I've bought the game and will delve into it bigtime today and tomorrow, freakin FM is addicting as hell)

All of that said? There is only one idiot here. I love the "I'll meet anyone here face to face" line. What exactly is that supposed to mean? You are going to kick my ass if I call you a whiner to your face? Takes a big man to threaten people on a message board for bruising his feelings. You must be a tough man.

PS: I know of more than one person on this board you would NOT like to have take you up on your offer. When you challenge a board with thousands of members it may be a good idea to know WHO you are actually challenging. I know you aren't a trained fighter, especially in martial arts, because we are trained to find ways to avoid fights rather than get into them, so that means ANY trained fighter would have a huge advantage over you.

DolphinFan1

11-25-2006, 11:17 AM

He just needs a nap.

MizzouRah

11-25-2006, 11:34 AM

All I know is, patch "c" has done it for me. I can't stop playing and the kids want to go to the park. :(

It's such a differnce when switing back from TCY now, meaning it feels like the NFL and TCY feels like college football. I guess since it's a whole new way to play FOF for me now, that the two feel more different to me... which is a good thing.

BigPitt

11-25-2006, 12:01 PM

TroyF

11-25-2006, 12:12 PM

Skydog & TRoyF---
I said nothing about hitting anyone. Simply that people on these boards are always shooting off their mouths behind the curtain of the internet. At your ages you should know better. Probably no education. Whatever - I don't have time to make 5000 posts. Unlike you my my time is spent mainly with people.

1) So your meaning was you wanted to meet us face to face so you could buy us a beer?

2) My 2.40 posts per day just destroys my social life. I mean, I have no idea how I get anything done or talk to any real life humans. Take this morning, I've posted twice now in a few hours. The rest of those hours were spent pouring over threads looking for my next chance to add a post, not calling up friends and setting up plans for tonight or cooking pasta that I'm taking to my grandfather this afternoon.

3) In a matter of 3 posts, you've now wanted to start a fight, insulted us by saying we have no friends and called us uneducated dolts who have no life other than the message board. I know I'm going to go out of my way to help you if you ever have a question about any text sim again.

4) Please, please, for the love of God, do what you just said you'd do. LEAVE.

5) Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Phototropic

11-25-2006, 12:27 PM

To get back on topic, I simmed about 5-6 seasons with the new patch, and while there are the occasional 400-420 carry years, I've have 2-3 seasons where no one breaks 380. Overall it looks much better, and I'm just going to pray someone breaks Alexander's leg in the first season. ;)

Northwood_DK

11-25-2006, 12:37 PM

I'm just going to pray someone breaks Alexander's leg in the first season. ;)

He has been the man behind all the 450+ seasons I have seen in the now 100 simms I have done. I have also noticed that Detroit have not made the playoffs once in those 100 seasons so Jim have that part of the game perfected.<O:p</O:p

Flasch186

11-25-2006, 01:53 PM

i mean how hard would it be for Jim just to take the same interface, plug in some more teams, make a poll and, abracadabra, TCY2. Gimme an hour, and Ill have it done if someone can do the logos and stuff for me.

j/k ... just trying to lighten the mood.

Vinatieri for Prez

11-25-2006, 08:25 PM

I don't like being called a whiner

Too bad. You may not like it, but you are. If you don't want to be called one, then stop doing it.

RedKingGold

12-10-2007, 05:17 PM

BigPitt and scoman; where have you gone?

Ben E Lou

12-10-2007, 05:24 PM

Heh. I dunno, RKG, but re-reading this reminded me that I never thanked you for running yabanci off.

Thank you.

RedKingGold

12-10-2007, 05:33 PM

Heh. I dunno, RKG, but re-reading this reminded me that I never thanked you for running yabanci off.

Thank you.

True, and I didn't even have to get the pitchfork out of the closet.

PiemasterUK

12-12-2007, 03:44 AM

Just read this whole thread, half of it before I realised that it was a year old :)

Has this issue been addressed in any of the patches since then?

scoman

12-12-2007, 07:26 PM

Just read this whole thread, half of it before I realised that it was a year old :)

Has this issue been addressed in any of the patches since then?

Yes,In V 6.1a the 1st string RB total carries for a season are very much in line with current NFL standards.

RedKingGold

03-31-2009, 07:49 PM

I was doing a search for something and found this gem of a thread.

Bump for comic relief.

Page 3 is interesting/fun (not quite the dude trying to upload something to FOFC from My Computer, but pretty close)