Cubs sign Soriano

[Coffee Warlord]

8 years, 136 million. Bit of a too-long deal for a 30 year old, but hey.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-061119cubssoriano,1,6514808.story?coll=cs-cubs-headlines

[bulletsponge]

thats what? 17 mil a season? whoa thats a lot of money for a 30yo who cant play D

[JPhillips]

Great work by Bowden, again.

[Logan]

thats what? 17 mil a season? whoa thats a lot of money for a 30yo who cant play D

Not sure of where Chicago is planning on using him, but I feel like his defensive shortcomings in LF were kind of overblown (after the first month or so of the season).

[JPhillips]

According to the article they're going to play Soriano in CF. I hope that's wrong. He'll be passable in LF, but he'll be a disaster in CF.

[mauchow]

He's athletic enough to play centerfield, but is he talented enough? Probably not. I won't mind it too much if he plays centerfield since that will mean Pierre won't be back.. which would be fantastic.

[JPhillips]

From what little I saw his big problem is he doesn't make quick decisions on balls. That's not a giant problem in LF, but in CF you want a guy that gets good jumps. He'll cost a lot more runs in CF than he will in LF.

[Crapshoot]

Roffle. That's a god awful deal, but its the Cubs.

[MizzouRah]

Wow.

[RedKingGold]

8 years for a 31 year old? I bet Chicago gave him a no-trade clause as well. Four years down the road (when the Cubs are on their next GM) that trade is going to be a A-rod type albatross.

[jbmagic]

I thought he doesn't want to play in the outfield and prefers to play 2b only.

[RedKingGold]

I thought he doesn't want to play in the outfield and prefers to play 2b only.

$-D

[watravaler]

Meh...the contract is big but the Cubs have the money...makes them a tougher team, without question...

[ISiddiqui]

They've always had the money, the question is whether they'd use it. And whether this contract will make it less likely to shell out for pitching.

[dime]

hendry has always wanted soriano; he broke his "no deals longer than 5 years" rule here so he must be appropriately desperate. they will put him in CF; murton and jones are corner OFs in the worst way. they will need at least one defensive sub in the OF with this group.

1. CF Soriano
2. LF Murton
3. 1B Lee
4. 3B Ramirez
5. C Barrett
6. RF Jones
7. 2B DeRosa
8. SS Itzuris

they will hit next year, if nothing else. they haven't been a good hitting team since 03, really.

[sterlingice]

Horrible. After doing such a good job with Aramis and Wood, they go and do this :(

SI

[Sweed]

8 years for a 31 year old? I bet Chicago gave him a no-trade clause as well. Four years down the road (when the Cubs are on their next GM) that trade is going to be a A-rod type albatross.

Take this post as intended with a qualifying BIG IF.

IF the Cubs were able to keep their pitching healthy and actually won a WS in those first four years and then Soriano fell off the table it would be money well spent. The last four years wouldn't matter.

I would say the guy looks to be in great shape. In this day and age I can see him still being a quality player into his late 30's. Worth 17 mil when he's 37-39? Probably not, but then the way the Cubs are opening the wallet I don't think they plan on him helping them win then as much as in the next two to three years.

The thing that would worry me as a Cardinal or Astros fan is that the Cubs have always had the money to spend. In the past though they have almost always gone after the second tier FA's (guys well past their prime) hoping they regain form. Or even worse standing pat and doing nothing at all. Now they finally appear to be ready to play on a stage that competes with other large market teams.

Whether it pays off or not it's a good sign for Cub fans.

[sterlingice]

hendry has always wanted soriano; he broke his "no deals longer than 5 years" rule here so he must be appropriately desperate. they will put him in CF; murton and jones are corner OFs in the worst way. they will need at least one defensive sub in the OF with this group.

1. CF Soriano
2. LF Murton
3. 1B Lee
4. 3B Ramirez
5. C Barrett
6. RF Jones
7. 2B DeRosa
8. SS Itzuris

they will hit next year, if nothing else. they haven't been a good hitting team since 03, really.

How good of a hitting team are you with Barrett and Jones at 5/6, tho, really?

SI

[ISiddiqui]

Soriano will probably be better as a 2/3 than a leadoff hitter. Find someone with a really good OBP for that leadoff spot.

[MizzouRah]

Yeah, why would you waste his power and bat him at leadoff?

[John Galt]

Yeah, why would you waste his power and bat him at leadoff?

Ask the Nats.

[dime]

barrett and jones are pretty good at the 5 and 6 spots...unless you're the yankees or red sox, anyway.

[Toddzilla]

Yeah, why would you waste his power and bat him at leadoff?Because he stole 40 bases. Without Pierre coming back, Soriano is the only bona-fide speed guy on the entire roster. OBP or no OBP, he has to lead off - for crying out loud he doesn't make enough contact or take enough pitches to hit 2 or 3.

Ideally you put a very patient contact-hitter in the 2 spot behind Soriano and 3-4-5 are Ramirez, Lee, and Jones (in any order) and the Cubs should score a bunch of runs.

Also, this means without a doubt the Cubs are trading Matt Murton. No way no how can Soriano play CF in the majors, much less in one of the hardest parks to play CF. Soriano is the new left fielder and Murton should be packing his bags right now.

Cubs will likely deal Murton for pitching (rumor: to Cleveland for Jake Westbrook) and then they'll sign Matthews Jr. (who, BTW, the Cubs released outright a few years ago when he sucked).

And finally, all of this is moot unless the Cubs can sign 2-3 goos starters. Heh.

[Hammer755]

Because he stole 40 bases. Without Pierre coming back, Soriano is the only bona-fide speed guy on the entire roster. OBP or no OBP, he has to lead off - for crying out loud he doesn't make enough contact or take enough pitches to hit 2 or 3.

Ideally you put a very patient contact-hitter in the 2 spot behind Soriano and 3-4-5 are Ramirez, Lee, and Jones (in any order) and the Cubs should score a bunch of runs.

Also, this means without a doubt the Cubs are trading Matt Murton. No way no how can Soriano play CF in the majors, much less in one of the hardest parks to play CF. Soriano is the new left fielder and Murton should be packing his bags right now.

Cubs will likely deal Murton for pitching (rumor: to Cleveland for Jake Westbrook) and then they'll sign Matthews Jr. (who, BTW, the Cubs released outright a few years ago when he sucked).

And finally, all of this is moot unless the Cubs can sign 2-3 goos starters. Heh.

OBP >>>> SB for a leadoff hitter. That fact cannot be stressed enough. If Hendry signs Matthews to a big contract, I think he'll have wrested the title of Dumbest Big-League GM from Jim Bowden.

[JS19]

I just don't see how you can put a 40+ HR guy in the leadoff spot. Especially when you have the ability to have a Soriano, Lee, Ramirez heart of the order.

[MizzouRah]

Toddzilla, I agree to disagree with you - hell Bonds used to steal 40 bases. :)

#2 might not be too bad, but I like him at #3 - just like JS19 has said.

[Crapshoot]

OBP >>>> SB for a leadoff hitter. That fact cannot be stressed enough. If Hendry signs Matthews to a big contract, I think he'll have wrested the title of Dumbest Big-League GM from Jim Bowden.

Woah - Dave Littlefield has this title sewn up. :D

[Hammer755]

Woah - Dave Littlefield has this title sewn up. :D

Well, there's only so much damage you can do in Pittsburgh. :2cents:

[jbmagic]

hendry has always wanted soriano; he broke his "no deals longer than 5 years" rule here so he must be appropriately desperate. they will put him in CF; murton and jones are corner OFs in the worst way. they will need at least one defensive sub in the OF with this group.

1. CF Soriano
2. LF Murton
3. 1B Lee
4. 3B Ramirez
5. C Barrett
6. RF Jones
7. 2B DeRosa
8. SS Itzuris

they will hit next year, if nothing else. they haven't been a good hitting team since 03, really.

Their starting and relief pitchers still sucks.

[primelord]

In Soriano's career he has 2,052 at bats in the lead off spot and 1,850 at bats outside of the lead off spot. The vast majority of the latter are in either the #3 or #5 slot.

Leadoff Spot: Avg: .291 OBP: .340 SLG: .544 OPS: .884
Outside LO: Avg: .267 OBP: .303 SLG: .473 OPS: .773

Stats per 500 At Bats:

Leadoff Spot: R: 87 HR: 29 RBI: 68
Outside LO: R: 71 HR: 24 RBI: 75

Overall in his career he has been less productive outside of the leadoff spot. Also while he strikes out at almost exactly the same rate in both he actually walks more in the lead off spot than else where.

[Fouts]

Soriano takes a lot of heat here for his lack of OBP, but he just got PAID!

[jbmagic]

Can Soriano pitch too? :)

[Toddzilla]

...and just to re-iterate, Soriano will NOT play centerfield.

I steadfastly refuse to believe, even with an organization that has redefined stupidity, the Cubs could be that stupid.

[MizzouRah]

Yeah, I don't buy him playing CF either.

[Toddzilla]

Yeah, I don't buy him playing CF either.This brings to mind the defensive spectrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_spectrum), as defined by Bill James:

DH - 1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS - C (- P)

The Left side being the easiest defensively and the right being the hardest. Players can move right-to-left with relative ease as the positional demands decrease.

Soriano was a bad defensive 2B. Thats understating it a bit, actually. He was a horrible defensive 2B. He made a very good transition to LF last year - as the spectrum might indicate. Moving (back to the right) to CF would be a disaster.

[dime]

the cubs actually have a very good bullpen, assuming that ryan dempster is no longer allowed to pitch in the 9th inning.

trading murton is a bad idea because his value is highest to the team he's already on...he'd be a spare part for other teams. the OF defense is going to be bad regardless, might as well keep murton and fill the CF hole with soriano.

[Swaggs]

Well, there's only so much damage you can do in Pittsburgh. :2cents:

Sad, but true. :(

[Toddzilla]

the cubs actually have a very good bullpen, assuming that ryan dempster is no longer allowed to pitch in the 9th inning.

trading murton is a bad idea because his value is highest to the team he's already on...he'd be a spare part for other teams. the OF defense is going to be bad regardless, might as well keep murton and fill the CF hole with soriano.No no no a thousand times no. There is bad defensive OF, and there is catastrophic outfield defense. Soriano would cost the Cubs many many runs if he played in CF. Multiple runs a game? Maybe. His defensive shortcomings are such that they would dwarf any offensive contribution he made.

Just please...no...stop the insanity.

[dime]

I don't think that soriano's, erm, unconventional defense would cost the Cubs more runs than having some no-hit flychaser in the lineup everyday would. Hendry has been after soriano for a few years to play CF, so for better or for worse he believes the guy can be adequate out there. Considering he's only played OF for one full year, I don't think it's unreasonable to think he could continue to improve out there.

I don't want any more tom goodwin types in CF because of their "defense". There are only a couple balls in CF that could separate a good defender from a poor one, but those guys will kill a rally every time they come up to hit.

[QuikSand]

His defensive shortcomings are such that they would dwarf any offensive contribution he made.

That's a pretty bold statement. If Soriano had a fairly predictable offensive season, just how badly would he have to play CF to offset his additional offense on beyond a replacemenbt level player? I shudder to think.

[JPhillips]

I think Todd has gone too far, but I still think Soriano in CF is lowering his value to the team. You can't simply separate his defensive and offensive play. He's going to be the most watched and criticized player in Chicago with that salary. Every time he misplays a ball or throws to the wrong man the crowd is going to kill him. That's bound to have an effect eventually on his offensive numbers. Putting him in CF is setting him up to disappoint and anger the Chicago fans.

With a guy like Soriano I would think you'd want to put him in a position to maximize his positives. If he's in a situation where his defensive play weighs on his offensive numbers this will be a terrible signing.

[Subby]

His stolen bases are almost negligible in value - he got caught 17 times in addition to his 41 successes.

[stevew]

I'm glad that the Phils didnt give him that kind of money.

[CraigSca]

This past August, while driving home from the Phiadelphia airport, I happened upon a Phillies-Nationals game on the radio. This is when the Phillies were in the midst of their (ultimately futile) playoff drive. Twice in the 4 innings I listened to, Soriano made plays that won't even show up in a boxscore but really show what his play defensively is all about. There was a line drive the announcers commented he misplayed into a single, and then 3 innings later he allowed Howard to go from first to second because he lolly-gagged on the throw into the infield.

While range factor can show at least a part of plays like this occurring, I really doubt the current defensive statistics can fully reveal the defensive player Soriano is (or isn't).

[Bee]

I think Soriano is a good player, but he's not worth that kind of money especially on a long contract like that. Give me the two draft picks and the free cash to sign a couple solid young players instead of Soriano.

[JPhillips]

Bee: With Bowden that means two HS pitchers and a couple of promising "five-tool" guys.

[Butter]

8 years is a surprise. They are going to be dying in 3-4 years when they want to unload him and nobody can take him except Boston or New York.

[Toddzilla]

I'll try to avoid hyperbole and just say that a player's defensive contribution to the team's success - particularly up the middle (CF, 2B, SS, C) - have been and still are very very underrated.

I believe

Juan Pierre CF + Matt Murton LF > Soriano CF + Murton LF

and

Soriano LF + Above average CF >>> Pierre CF + Murton LF


Deal Murton for pitching and sign a decent CF, and the Cubs are WAY ahead of last year.


EDIT: Shit --- so much for hyperbole....

[Toddzilla]

8 years is a surprise. They are going to be dying in 3-4 years when they want to unload him and nobody can take him except Boston or New York.Oh yeah. Players decline in production a lot faster that you think they do, so Soriano could very well be an average offensive outfielder in 3-4 years. In that case - ouch!

But, if he's got longevity like Moises Alou, then the Cubs got a long-term bargain.

I also didn't realize that Soriano is getting less-per-year than they gave Sosa 5 years ago (4 years $72M). Of course, Sosa would *right now* be in year 7 of an 8 year deal, so....oh noes.

[Bee]

Bee: With Bowden that means two HS pitchers and a couple of promising "five-tool" guys.


Do you actually think Bowden is in charge of anything?

[RedKingGold]

I'm glad that the Phils didnt give him that kind of money.

"

[RedKingGold]

Dola

I also heard that the Cubs are pursuing Cliff Floyd to play left field. That would mean the outfield for the Cubs would have Floyd in left, Soriano in center, and Jacque Jones in right.

That may be the worst defensive outfield we've seen in professional baseball in the past decade.

[Bee]

It's really surprising to me that they'd play Soriano in center. I don't understand the thinking there at all.

[JPhillips]

If not, why is he there? I think he has a lot to do with the baseball side of things. He doesn't run wild, but Caston can't deal with everything. With the stadium, TV network, advertising, promotions, etc. that Caston has to be involved with he can't handle everything on the baseball side.

Bowden believes in HS pitchers and "five tool" guys more than anything. Look at his record in Cincinnati. Unless he's controlled during the draft I believe he'll spend the picks on HS pitchers and he'll spend free agent money on less proven players that have tools.

I don't fault the Nats for not resigning, but not dealing Soriano was a huge mistake.

[Toddzilla]

Dola

I also heard that the Cubs are pursuing Cliff Floyd to play left field. That would mean the outfield for the Cubs would have Floyd in left, Soriano in center, and Jacque Jones in right.

That may be the worst defensive outfield we've seen in professional baseball in the past decade.+5

[Bee]

If not, why is he there? I think he has a lot to do with the baseball side of things. He doesn't run wild, but Caston can't deal with everything. With the stadium, TV network, advertising, promotions, etc. that Caston has to be involved with he can't handle everything on the baseball side.

Bowden believes in HS pitchers and "five tool" guys more than anything. Look at his record in Cincinnati. Unless he's controlled during the draft I believe he'll spend the picks on HS pitchers and he'll spend free agent money on less proven players that have tools.

I don't fault the Nats for not resigning, but not dealing Soriano was a huge mistake.


Bowden probably handles day to day stuff, but anything of importance is Stan Kasten IMO. From what I understand it was Kasten that had final say on all the trade offers during the season when they were trying to offload Soriano and it was his decision not to make a trade. I'd be shocked if it's not Kasten who has the final say on free agent signings and draft picks.

As far as not dealing Soriano during the season, it's easy to say it was a huge mistake but we don't know what was being offered. It takes two to tango and with how tightly everyone seemed to be holding onto their prospects they might not have had an offer better than the two draft picks they ended up with.

I'm don't care one way or the other about Bowden, but I just don't think he has any real decision making authority now. I think Kasten is going to be the one making the calls and he's already said how he plans on building the team. Soriano didn't fit in that plan at all, but a couple draft picks and the money to sign a few decent young players would.

[Coffee Warlord]

See, I really wish they'd stick with Murton in left, or even try him in center (unless they really go batshit insane with the checkbook and sign Carlos Lee). Muton's above average defensively, and is decent at the plate.

Or, better yet, trade him for pitching, keep Pierre in center and leading off, and bat Soriano 2nd.

[John Galt]

Soriano is interesting in that he has old player skills (power + free swinging), but he is still athletic and fast. Normally, I wouldn't expect him to age well. Looking at his PECOTA comparables (before last season), you see some bad names for players aging (Chris Sabo, A. Boone, Sandberg, Nomar, Mondesi, Fryman), but his top 2 comparables represent the extremes to which he could play: Jeff Kent v. Kelly Gruber.

There is no doubt that the Cubs massively overpaid. And CF is going to be an adventure. But if Soriano does have a Jeff-Kent-type end of his career, the Cubs will be reasonably happy. I just don't think that is going to happen.

[ISiddiqui]

See, I really wish they'd stick with Murton in left, or even try him in center (unless they really go batshit insane with the checkbook and sign Carlos Lee). Muton's above average defensively, and is decent at the plate.

Or, better yet, trade him for pitching, keep Pierre in center and leading off, and bat Soriano 2nd.

Yeah, I just looked at Murton's numbers and he ain't bad. A .365 OBP was one of the highest on the Cubs. Does he have any speed? He could bat leadoff (I still am wary of putting Soriano in that #1 spot).

[Cuckoo]

Yeah, I just looked at Murton's numbers and he ain't bad. A .365 OBP was one of the highest on the Cubs. Does he have any speed? He could bat leadoff (I still am wary of putting Soriano in that #1 spot).

Nah, not much speed. He's better than a station to station guy but he's certainly not what you'd want in the leadoff spot as far as speed.

I like Murton, and I think he's going to be a heckuva hitter as he continues to develop his power. He already has a fairly solid eye for balls and strikes.

As one of the resident Cubs fans on the board, I'll throw in my $.02 on the signing. Is it a lot of money? Yep. Is it too many years? Yep. Will the Cubs regret it down the line? Probably. But I sure am glad to see it. Hendry has some aggressiveness to him this offseason that is refreshing. For us Cubs fans who are used to seeing Chicago pick up the 2nd tier free agents, this is a step in the right direction.

No doubt the Cubs still need pitching. Prior, Miller, and Hill are all question marks, two for injuries and the other for youth. If they can pick up a couple of starters, I think they'll be quite competitive in the Central this next year.

[weegeebored]

I don't think that the Cubs are worried that much about the long contract dollars. The Tribune Company is looking to sell some of its newpapers -- and a little sports team that plays on the North Side of Chicago.

They are not done overpaying for players yet either. Still, I can't help thinking that these are the Cubs and it won't matter who they sign or how much they spend -- I don't see a World Series in their future.

[Toddzilla]

A Yankees friend of mine laughed at me today and said "Ha Ha! The Cubs are going to turn into the Yankees, buying all of their players and spending too much money."

I thought about that for a second, and the Yankee's 26 World Championships, and smiled.

[IrishHand]

Awful, awful, awful deal.

I asked three smart baseball fanatic buddies of mine "would you want Soriano on your favorite team with that contract - yes or no?" and got laughter from each - bearing in mind that their favorite teams are all big-market (Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox).

[Irrelevant Dude]

I'll try to avoid hyperbole and just say that a player's defensive contribution to the team's success - particularly up the middle (CF, 2B, SS, C) - have been and still are very very underrated.

I believe

Juan Pierre CF + Matt Murton LF > Soriano CF + Murton LF

and

Soriano LF + Above average CF >>> Pierre CF + Murton LF


Deal Murton for pitching and sign a decent CF, and the Cubs are WAY ahead of last year.


EDIT: Shit --- so much for hyperbole....
Yeah you're right, it worked out great for the Cubs last year!

[dime]

Awful, awful, awful deal.

I asked three smart baseball fanatic buddies of mine "would you want Soriano on your favorite team with that contract - yes or no?" and got laughter from each - bearing in mind that their favorite teams are all big-market (Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox).


Um...

Red Sox - Trot Nixon $7.5 million , Josh Beckett $10 million, Mike Lowell $9 million, Matt Clement $9.8 million, et cetera.

Dodgers - Juan Pierre $9 million, Jeff Kent $9.4 million, Rafael Furcal $9 million, etc.

Yankees - Jason Giambi $20 million, Randy Johnson $16 million, Jaret Wright $7.7 million, Kyle Farnsworth $5.5 million, Jorge Posada $12 million, Carl Pavano $8 million, etc.

your smart baseball fanatic buddies have no reason to laugh at anyone. I suggest they start watching the games now and then.

[primelord]

Um...

Red Sox - Trot Nixon $7.5 million , Josh Beckett $10 million, Mike Lowell $9 million, Matt Clement $9.8 million, et cetera.

Dodgers - Juan Pierre $9 million, Jeff Kent $9.4 million, Rafael Furcal $9 million, etc.

Yankees - Jason Giambi $20 million, Randy Johnson $16 million, Jaret Wright $7.7 million, Kyle Farnsworth $5.5 million, Jorge Posada $12 million, Carl Pavano $8 million, etc.

your smart baseball fanatic buddies have no reason to laugh at anyone. I suggest they start watching the games now and then.

What point are you trying to make? That just because the teams they root for have already have ridiculous contracts on their roster, that they should want Soriano on a ridiculous contract too? Were they the ones that signed those players to those contracts? How does it make them less smart or fanatic baseball fans? What in the response led you to believe they didn't know what they are talking about and that they needed to watch more games?

[primelord]

It always cracks me up when people flip out about the contracts these teams are giving out. Does anyone here really believe that for the next few years Soriano will not help the Cubs? Do you honestly believe they are worse off by signing him. Forget the dollar figures and the length of the contract for a moment. I am with everyone that he is not the worlds best option in CF, but I certainly don't agree that his defensive miscues will be a bigger impact than his bat in this lineup in a hitters park.

So it seems the real issue here is the fact that he is going to be 31 before the season starts and he has an 8 year mega deal. Who cares? Until the Cubs don't make a signing or some other move to help their ball club specifically because they are paying Soriano so much, what does it matter? I think we can all agree that while 17 million may be a lot for him, the market certainly says he is worth somewhere in the teens. The gap between what he is probably truely worth and what the Cubs gave him is not going to get you another impact player. It's not like they could have signed him and Carlos Lee (not syaing they should sign Lee just using a big name free agent) if they would have only given him 14.

If we are talking about small market teams then maybe I understand fans freaking out about big deals. For a team like the Cubs it really doesn't matter because they can frankly spend whatever they want. The poster above pointed out some of the ridiculous contracts on the Red Sox, Dodgers and Yankees. Again I say who cares? Does that ever stop them from going out and getting who they want anyway?

Fans of big market teams need to stop obsessing about the amount of the contracts they sign these ball players to. If you honestly believe the player won't help your team then I say bitch away. If your real concern though isn't that the player will help your team, but that the team paid too much for him, don't worry about it. If there is another guy out there they want they will still go after him.

[ISiddiqui]

What point are you trying to make? That just because the teams they root for have already have ridiculous contracts on their roster, that they should want Soriano on a ridiculous contract too? Were they the ones that signed those players to those contracts? How does it make them less smart or fanatic baseball fans? What in the response led you to believe they didn't know what they are talking about and that they needed to watch more games?

Not only that, but the length of a deal also determines how ridiculous a contract is. And besides, I don't think Giambi at $20 mil is that much of a bad deal. He has had OPS+ of over 150 the last two years (by comparison's sake, Soriano had an OPS+ of 132 last season).

[Toddzilla]

In general, a mega-contract like Soriano's would preclude a team from adding additional players. For example, if the Phillies or Orioles or Padres has signed Soriano for 8y x $17M, they most likely would no longer be able to afford bring on other players to help the team. In that respect, it is a terrible contract.

In context, however, it was made clear by the Cubs President that this contract would *not* limit the Cubs ability to go out and sign other free-agents to help the team. The Cubs will still go out and spend $30M more on a few pitchers - overspend even. In that respect, the contract itself is meaningless.

All that matters is that Alfonso Soriano is a Cub, and I'm happy with that.