OT - My TDCB thoughts and a proposal

[JonInMiddleGA]

The following is my open letter to Arlie following the release of TDCB v1.20

I'm posting it here because, well, I'm not sure how long it will be left on the forum there. I'm also posting it here because I'd like the gamers here to give feedback on the proposal that it references (which will be posted here in a minute).

Arlie,

"You pays your money, you takes your chances", that's how the saying goes.

But that doesn't say you have to suffer in silence.

I don't want to rant, I don't want to rave, I just want to be honest: I'm burned up and burned out with the disappointment of TDCB. 1.20 has done it for me, I just want it to be over.

In simplest terms, 1.20 isn't right and I have absolutely no confidence at this point TDCB ever will be.

After a series of excuses for one problem after another, to have the change-defense bug in this release is inexcusable (although I have little doubt many will try).

To release the game with such an obvious error leads me to the conclusion that the testing process used on this product is woefully ineffective. That alone dooms future release in my opinion. Honestly, I could go on for a great while about what I think of the testing effort but it wouldn't be anything new and I doubt seriously it would change anything, it certainly wouldn't change the current condition of TDCB.

I bought the game in spite of my previous disappointments with the now-affiliated OOTP. I bought the game in spite of my serious concerns about .400 Software overall. I bought the game in spite of the iffy nature of any new release.

I bought it because

a) I wanted what it promised to deliver b) I believed you'd try hard to deliver
c) I wanted to believe you could deliver

But I don't have that belief any longer. I don't even hold out any hope for that any more.

I don't know if it's you, if it's the entire .400 team, if it's something in the process somewhere, or just an incredible run of bad luck.

But I don't really care about the why's anymore. I just want it to be over.

What I do care about is the feeling that I paid for something I didn't get and no longer believe I'll ever get: a properly working, fully featured, as-advertised product.

I just want to take the game off my hard drive and get my money back, call it even & forget about it.

But therein lies the rub -- from my understanding of previous posts from .400 officials, the window of opportunity for a refund is now closed to those who bought early.

And something about that just doesn't
sit well with me. It's like being punished for having faith in you and the company. Punished for giving you a chance to correct the problems with the initial release. Punished for trying to be patient. Punished for trying to be supportive.

And that's just not right.

I don't want to be a disgruntled customer, I just want an equitable end to the situation.

In a seperate thread, I'm going to post a solution that I'd find satisfactory. I'm going to ask that, if I place the thread in the wrong forum, that it be moved rather than deleted. I'm asking you to consider that forthcoming request and if it seems fair to you, that you use every bit of influence you have at the company level to make it a reality.

I'm directing this to you specifically, rather than at the company, because you have the biggest stake in TDCB, it's your work more than anyone else's, it's your vision, and it's you that will be most closely connected to how the game is perceived.

And while some, including you perhaps, will disagree with my handling this personal appeal publically, I'm doing so because I don't believe I'm the only person feeling this way. And because I'm not looking for special treatment, I'm looking for a broader solution.

Sincerely,
Jon

[JonInMiddleGA]

The following is the "proposal" I referenced in the first post

As I said in a previous post, I'm looking for a way to get out of the TDCB loop without any hard feelings -- at this point, I've lost all hope & all faith in the product and just want my money back.

But, from previous posts I've read and seen referenced, a refund is no longer an option for me since I bought the game during the initial release, the window of opportunity for a refund is now closed (30 days is the figure I believe has been used)

I believe it's safe to say that we could agree that TDCB isn't where a lot of customers want it to be and it isn't where the developers want it to be
But those of us who bought early, waited through the patches, tried to hang in there, but have now reached our limit of understanding are stuck by the return policy as I understand it. We're essentially being punished for trying to be patient, and that just doesn't seem right.

That leaves this particular customer pretty darned disgruntled at this point, and having given up hope for the game, it leaves me looking for a solution to that problem. So I'd like to propose a solution, one that's customer friendly, good for public relations and company imaging and doesn't leave TDCB or .400 Software saddled with vocal dissatisifed customers.

I'll call it a "Buyer Amnesty Program" --

.400 Software admits that TDCB isn't where they would like it to be at the current time while being positive and reassuring that it will indeed reach those goals in the near future.

In the interest of good customer relations however, a window of opportunity will be opened for refunds for anyone who desires one.

It can be a time-limited offer, 2 weeks perhaps, a last-chance-to-get-out- if-you-want opportunity.

If the number of customers who feel as I do is very small, you lose little in the way of dollars but could gain a nice public relations coup.

If the number of customers who choose to exercise the option is large, then the short-term cash loss is more significant obviously, but at least you have a chance to re-claim them when you deliver as you believe you will.

It has the potential to be a win-win situation either way, as above all else, you move very close to removing the vocal dissatisfied customers from the future sales equation -- what's left for them to bitch about if you let them go away? Otherwise, you risk them costing .400 Software more sales with bad word of mouth than they
personally accounted for.

So ... how 'bout it guys? Let's find a solution that gets me and anyone else who feels like me off your back and out of your hair. This way, you at least have a chance to re-capture that group sometime in the future. Otherwise, you know we're likely gone for good, and it's not likely that we're going to go away quietly.

Hopefully, this request will get serious consideration and quick postive action, I think the benefits are very real.

Jon Loveless

[JonInMiddleGA]

And to complete the supadola post, here's what I'm hoping I get from re-posting these here:

Look, I may bitch about some things or some people or whatever at FOFC sometimes, but one thing I've said & believed for some time is that there's a damn good contingent of text-simmers here. Serious gamers, semi-serious gamers, most of all, adults who've been around the block more than once.

I didn't think I could explain the "Buyer Amnesty Program" very well without some context to wrap it in. But I'm quite serious about the idea.

I really believe what I said in that post, that it's a win-win solution in the long-run for a developer the size of .400 Software. Which means it's also adaptable for developers of similar size who find themselves in similar situations. And I think there'll be general agreement that this situation (with TDCB) isn't completely unique.

So, what say you simmers? Do you think I've lost my mind with this notion? Is it a great idea in theory that would suck in practice?
Am I overestimating the impact of word-of-mouth on product sales _at this level_? Is this a more unique situation than I'm thinking, it's not something that would be much use beyond this one instance?

I'm trying to look at this as not just a customer but as a business owner, and while the businessman recognizes the risk, it just seems to me that the reward potential outweighs it. It's good p.r. (which is hard to come by) and neutralizes some of your harshest critics from the loop, all for the cost of a few sales. That's a prettygood bargain IMO.

So go ahead gang, kick the tires, tell me true what you think.

[samifan24]

I think your letter to Arlie is well-written and I feel the same way, but until your wrote them, I couldn't put what I was feeling into words. I really think your "Buyer Amnesty" program could work. .400 has shown a willingness to respond to their customers--they know they made a mistake with TDCB's release and I'm hoping they see this as a truce of sorts. We (those who spring for the Buyer refund, should one become available) can get our money and sanity back while the company can make the best of a tough situation.
I look forward to future releases from .400, but I know now to exercise more caution when purchasing games such as TDCB. I think the point now is for .400 to make the best of the situation for all involved, and your proposal gives Arlie, Joe & company such an option. I, for one, hope they accept. Keep us posted Jon.

[Eilim]

It's a tough call, especially with a product that has a demo available for download. (Although I, like I'm sure many others, purchased the game before the demo was available.. I suppose that was a mistake on my part.)

I just don't know if they'd take a chance on exactly how many people would take them up on the offer. With the lead programmer leaving his "day job", any sort of financial hit may be hard to swallow.

Hopefully I'm just being a pessimist, and they will see the logic behind your argument. If they do, atleast now I know I'll have the money to spare for CM4 when it comes out :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Eilim
It's a tough call, especially with a product that has a demo available for download. (Although I, like I'm sure many others, purchased the game before the demo was available.. I suppose that was a mistake on my part.)

That's why I intended (not sure if I was clear about that really) to limit the offer to those who purchased sans demo.

And yeah, I think there's a number of us who believe we made a mistake in buying early. But I think it's an even bigger mistake for companies, especially small ones, to leave too many unhappy customers in their wake.

Thanks much for the feedback,
Jon

[korme]

How is the defensive sets a showstopper? I guess if you go game-by-game it is, but for me, since I don't play out games, I'm having no problems, and currently enjoying 1.2.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Shorty3281
I guess if you go game-by-game it is,

There ya go, that's how it's a show-stopper.

Minus that feature (game-by-game in-game), I'd never have purchased the game, never would have even considered it.

[Eilim]

As Jon stated in the TDCB forums, for me atleast.. Its a case of "The straw that broke the camels back."

My playing time so far has been the equivalent of play a few games/sim a few seasons every patch. Just to put it aside and wait for the next patch. While I understand others have have fun with the game as it has been, it has just hasn't been that way for me.

The funny thing is, I'm a simmer, I don't coach the game's myself. If the other issues mentioned in this patch are just quirks to specific user configurations I probably would find the game somewhat enjoyable now (Not really, the new sim and save times are also driving me nuts.). This error is just too much though, it reminds me of the TCY title in the first release of FOF4, this far into the release its just insane for something like that to get through in my opinion. As such, I've just completely lost faith in the development of the game.

Will I scream foul if they don't offer some sort of refund policy? No , I realize they are in business to make money, and it can be claimed I've had a "working" product for too long a time to be given a refund. But I can honestly say after this experience it will be a cold day in hell before I buy another .400 studios product that hasn't been out for a year.. if at all.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Eilim
... and it can be claimed I've had a "working" product for too long a time to be given a refund.

I think there could be great debate over that claim, at least if it applies to "working as advertised". That hasn't happened yet, whether it will ever happen is what I've lost faith in.

I just don't like feeling punished because I ever believed it would happen nor do I want anyone else to be in that same boat.

[Rich1033]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
So, what say you simmers? Do you think I've lost my mind with this notion? Is it a great idea in theory that would suck in practice?
Am I overestimating the impact of word-of-mouth on product sales _at this level_? Is this a more unique situation than I'm thinking, it's not something that would be much use beyond this one instance?
Very well said. I think you made some great points, and .400 studios would be wise to give you at the very least a well thought out response. The one problem I see is if they open up this window for returns once, then can they shoot down all requests for returns in the future? Do the customers who bought the game after the demo was released deserve to have the same opportunity because of broken promises? It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

In my opinion they should listen and make the offer you proposed. I have not purchased TDCB, but do know that I will look a lot harder at future .400 studio releases before I even consider buying them.

[korme]

Jon, 1.21 is already out. Please reconsider. Arlie stayed up until 5AM EST for ya :)

[Arles]

I guess I don't understand what is the big issue with this update to warrant that kind of response. The patch had a few minor errors that I took full responsibility for, and were quickly fixed. Heck, the main "showstopper" (defensive sets) was simply a display problem and the game actually changed to the set you chose (it just didn't update the display). The other issues were small interface errors that were simply a minor nuisance and nothing more.

There was nothing, and I repeat nothing, that negatively impacted gameplay in 1.20. Everything complaint was cosmetic with the exception of the UK Windows setting problem. There were no huge crashes, major gameplay issues, incorrect stat tracking, or new or old features that did not function.

Still as I have tried to do on almost all prior occassions, I made sure to quickly fix the few interface errors and also make a few other requested changes (subbing after 2nd free throw, tweak endurance a little more, and fix some of the blowout logic to sub more bench players). All of this was done within a few hours of the initial patch being released (well before over 80% of the owners of TD even had a chance to download 1.20).

Now, to Jon's idea. While a noble one, I don't see a precedent anywhere in the gaming industry for that type of response. Not from Baseball Mogul, FOF, OOTP, CM, EA or any other group. I prefer to take the road of improving the game to the point to where everyone enjoys playing it and feels they got their money's worth. It's not like this game had all kinds of stability issues and numerous people were having problems getting the game to work. In fact, the reason for this last patch was to add some additional needed features and continually tweak the sim engine to give as many people a positive experience as possible. And, with this latest patch, I think that the game has grown from both a feature list and sim engine standpoint to the point that I had hoped for back when I started development.

What you are essentially asking is that I just give up, throw in the towel after a few complaints, and give everyone their money back. I don't see how this helps the current users of TD (a vast majority of whom enjoy the game) and the potential buyers of TD down the road.

So, Jon, I guess my question is what features of the current version of the game do you feel are not working or up to your expectations? From what you have said, you didn't even bother installing the patch (1.20 or 1.21). So, I don't see how you can have this level of disappointment for something you didn't even bother trying. My goal here is to make TD the best game possible and I would be glad to hear any feedback you (or anyone else) have on version 1.21.

Arlie

[Eilim]

I think what possibly brought on this response was the "Hype" generated for this patch (Which, probably isn't really your fault.) that gave the feeling that with it the single player experience would pretty much be complete.

It also seems that most of the people upset are also in the same boat with me, that we haven't been playing this game the whole time through. Due to what we viewed as faults in the gameplay in our.. hmm.. areas of specialized interest in the game we just would try it after new patches, see if what we took issue with was fixed, if not looked on the forums and saw if someone brought our concerns up and if someone (You or Scott) addressed or took notice of them. Then we proceed to wait for the next patch. This process tends to heighten the feeling of "Not getting what you paid for."

During this process you tend to build a little angst, some more than others. Yes, bugs happen, in this case a trivial one in patch some of us falsely assumed was the be all/end all of the single player patches made us come to the conclusion we've invested enough time in this game.

Do I expect you to give up and throw in the towel? Ofcourse not, this is your "baby" and hopefully something you have some emotional investment in, not to mention the fiscal responsibilty to those who paid and are still waiting for the best college hoops sim known to man. Thing is, I don't have that much of a vested interest in the game. I only have the money I paid... and that stopped being enough to keep my attention after this patch. Besides my money, my time is valuable, I've invested enough for what from my gaming experience is little in return.

In my case, you just happen to be catching the short end of the stick of 5 years of dealing with the existing software publishing paradigm. It's why I never expected a refund (Won't deny I would have taken it if it had been offered, as I don't intend to play anymore.), never really attacked the game itself and the few posts I made were at how the game has been released from start to this point.

I in all honesty hope you do get the game to the point you, and those customers who stick with you are happy with the game. I don't doubt you will. I just believe all attempts should be made to get it to that point before people have to start paying for it, nomatter what the industry norm is.

*Edited to clarify a point a little bit*

[Arles]

Eilim,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Because of some unwise decisions made (by myself and others), this game was released before it probably should have been. There was some pressure put on us to release the game on a certain date because of a preorder process some at .400 decided to use. In retrospect, this was a very bad idea and one that I plan on avoiding like the plague in the future.

Unfortunately, there are some people that have (will) be turned off from future games I work on because of that unwise decision. It's one of those situations where I have made the bed and now I must lay in it.

But, since that rocky beginning, my goal has been to try and win people back and really make everyone feel that they will get the game they originally paid for. But, atleast for this version of the game, there will be a certain few that have given up after giving their hard-earned time into the game. My hope is that each of you will atleast give 1.21 a chance, as I think it really does add a great deal to the gameplaying experience. But, if you decide not to, I can't really fault you for that.

I can only pledge to learn from what happened with the initial TD release and use that as motivation to do it the correct way for football and any future versions of TD.

Arlie

[Ben E Lou]

An excerpt from a post I made over at .400....

I have been a beta tester of the patches. From what I could tell, most of the beta process for the patch was focused on the long-term aspects of the game. When I was recruited, .400 Studios was clearly looking for people to sim long-term stuff. They asked for people with high-end fast machines that could do multiple seasons fairly quickly. Based on the information I was given, I never coached a single game during the beta process. I assumed that they already had some other beta testers who were looking at "micro" in-game stuff. (And frankly, I think this was a wise and fair assumption.)

LESSON TO BE LEARNED HERE BY SIM DEVELOPERS: <u>There needs to be "strategic beta testing" for a game like this.</u> .400 Studios tends to take the ambitious tack of making their games have micro, macro, multiplayer and customizable. In order to avoid "Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" Syndrome, there need to be folks looking at all the different ways the game can be played at all junctures. As has been pointed out by programmers, sometimes a fix in one area of the game will knock something out of whack in an entirely different place. Looking at the OOTP series, it certainly appears that prior to OOTP5, testing was primarily focused on in-game AI, multiplayer and customization. However, the long term aspects of the game, such as realistic fictional player creation and development, finances, etc. were sorely lacking. In TDCB, the beta process seems to have perhaps gotten too long-term focused. It would seem that you would need a few Jon types, who'd coach every game during beta as well as a few SkyDog types, who'd focus on recruiting and quick-simming. If the game is going to try to cover all the bases. The testing needs to cover all the bases.

[klayman]

I have to say that personally, I feel that I've gotten my money's worth out of the game since 1.18. It wasn't perfect, but it was still enjoyable to play, for me anyways. I haven't had any crashes with the game, and haven't really become frustrated with it's development.

But I can understand Jon's position. I've been in those situations where you just don't feel you got value for the game you purchased, especially if you had high hopes for that product.

I have no solutions though. Just wanted to put a different opinion on the game out there.

[Dutch]

I feel for Jon. I was personally very displeased with the decision to release TDCB in it's "out of the box" state. It was a woefully bad decision. The game was obviously 3 months early.

With v1.18 (I think) I decided to purchase the game. It wasn't bad, but it certainly lacked a lot of what I really wanted from the game. So I left it alone after playing a season or two.

Today I went back after seeing Jon's post and downloaded v1.21 and found the game to be much stronger. I am pleased with the work that v1.20(1) accomplished.

So I'm glad the game is closer to where it should be, but waiting for a game to get patched to the point where it's stable and somewhat full of advertised options is a drag.

What Jon is experiencing is high hopes and let downs. Not the kind of emotional ups and downs you want from your customers, Arlie and Joe.

What are we supposed to do with your future releases of games if we want to wait for it to be stable and (advertised) feature loaded? Are we supposed to visit your forums constantly? What about people who don't like to visit forums all the time?

I know you guys are relatively new, but you have to take care of your customers. For they are the ones that pay your salary. Make purchasing a game from you something that is emotion free.

You folks obviously are very talented and have the potential to make fun management games, but please try to avoid creating such a large pocket of disgruntled fans.

I know you will try better next time, and remember, when you take care of your fans, they will take care of you. Don't expect it the other way around.

Good luck and keep up the hard work.

[Joe Stallings]

I think the more appropriate thing to do in this situation would have been to contact me or Markus and demand a refund (which would have been gladly offered). Hate to say this, but cross-posting multiple, lengthy messages in different message forums across two Internet sites over one's disgust over a $35 video game makes me wonder what the real intention here is.

And saying we aren't listening, we aren't taking care of customers, aren't working hard, aren't trying, or whatever, well, I know personally that that isn't true. And that's good enough for me.

JMS

[HornedFrog Purple]

Hopefully Jon wont see this as fanboyism. :)

vtbub and I were the first ones to notice the defensive sets bug. Anyways I went to the chat and TC Yogi was there along with Joe. So I simply asked about the defensive sets. Yogi said he could switch them on the fly. I was puzzled so I asked if he could do it in-game. He said yes.

I asked him if he had 1.20 and he basically said it wasnt the public 1.20. I got the message.

My theory is when we the people voted and got them to release this new patch, arlie had to go to a regressive patch that didnt have any multiplayer elements. This is what the majority wanted. Unfortunately, this had a defensive sets bug in it.

My point of it is we the consumer reaped what we had sown in this case. The good news out of all this was since I knew that it was working in Yogi's version, it wasnt going to be a big deal to fix, although the prospect of downloading another 16 megs isnt always fun I know for some people.

I am not being a fanboy I dont think, just stating what I had learned in the chat which was open to everybody and believe me it was NOT full of fanboys. ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
I think the more appropriate thing to do in this situation would have been to contact me or Markus and demand a refund (which would have been gladly offered). Hate to say this, but cross-posting multiple, lengthy messages in different message forums across two Internet sites over one's disgust over a $35 video game makes me wonder what the real intention here is.

I'm going to answer this here (and over there if it's in both places) because it's the one thing that had the post sitting on my screen for quite a while before I posted it.

It's the question I asked myself harder than you might think. But when I had my answer, I posted the messages.

I didn't want an individual solution, I wanted something broader (which I referenced somewhere along the way). I don't think I'd have been fully satisfied with an individual solution, I wanted something that covered everybody who felt the way I did.

Since posting, there have been enough thank-you notes in my e-mail from other users to have convinced me I made the right decision. That I said what they wanted to say but didn't for various reasons.

My "real intention" is exactly what I said -- I want the program I described, nothing more, but not much less either. And the posts were a first step toward making that goal a reality.

And saying we aren't listening, we aren't taking care of customers, aren't working hard, aren't trying, or whatever, well, I know personally that that isn't true.

If you read my messages from last night, I addressed that. I didn't say you weren't listening, I didn't say anyone wasn't working hard, I didn't say anyone wasn't trying (at least not on the .400 staff).

If you find me saying those things, please point them out to me & I'll publically apologize for the misstatement in both forums I posted in, because none of those things were part of my complaint.

My focus was on the result of those efforts, not on the tenacity of them.

Jon

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Arles I don't see a precedent anywhere in the gaming industry for that type of response. Not from Baseball Mogul, FOF, OOTP, CM, EA or any other group.


Agreed. I'm looking for .400 Software to step up to the plate and set that precedent. If it were commonplace, the public relations benefit would be minimal at best.

What you are essentially asking is that I just give up, throw in the towel after a few complaints, and give everyone their money back.

Not at all. All that would be lost is a relatively small portion of sales.

Unless of course you believe "everyone" feels about TD as I do. And if that's the case (which I don't believe it is) then do you really want to keep the money of a legion of dissatisifed customers in the first place?

Otherwise, it becomes a short-term vs long-term decision.

So, I don't see how you can have this level of disappointment for something you didn't even bother trying.

I don't quite know how to explain that again. It's the sum total of continued disappointment with TD, not with one night or one patch.

Jon

[Anrhydeddu]

Expectations.

Because of 400's willingness to be open and engage in a continuous dialog with its customers, it is held to a higher standard or perhaps receive more higher expectations. I guess that can be both good and bad but certainly much more preferable than a non-communicative developer where the mode is 'take it or leave it'.

[Bee]

I responded to this thread at the .400 studios forum. I'm too lazy to copy it over.

:D

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Bee
I responded to this thread at the .400 studios forum. I'm too lazy to copy it over.

:D

And I just responded to you over there, at roughly the same moment you were posting this here.:p

[Arles]

Jon, if we did institute this process, how would we be able to discern between the people that had honest intentions and had a game that never met their expectations after giving it 3-4 weeks, and people that enjoyed the game for 3-4 weeks, got bored and simply wanted to move on to a different game?

That, IMO, is why you haven't (and won't) see a policy like this from any game manufacturer. For every one guy with noble intentions like Jon, there will be 10 that are finished playing and are just looking to a refund so that they can buy OOTP5, Age of Mythology or some other new game that fits their fancy.

Arlie

[kcchief19]

The posts in this thread is why I doubt I will ever buy another .400 product. Once again, Joe is trashing a customer and indicating that if Jon had privately asked for a refund he would get it, but since he went public, screw you. That's garbage.

Jon's not proposing that everybody be able to return the game. He's proposing those who ordered the game before the demo was available be allowed to return to the game. At the time of the refund window closing, the game still was not the game that was promised. That meant that original customers were indeed taking a leap of faith on the product. If the product isn't delivered, then you're screwed.

I did not try TDCB until the demo came out for several well documented reasons. After playing an hour, I came across so many bugs in the demo and poor design choices that I found the game completely unplayable. There was no chance at purchase.

Since I gave up on the game at the point, I have not followed its progress, but am I to understand that key advertised features such as MP are still not in the game or do not work properly? If that's true, then .400 cannot be defended. Bucc, you can't even compare your perception of Jim to .400. Jim delivers a working product without issuing 20 patches that two months later still isn't a complete.

If Jon and others like him are so unhappy, .400 would be smart to give him his money back rather than have him doing what he is doing now -- sharing his disappointment with everyone he knows. It's customer service 101.

On the other hand, I'm floored that our resident arch conservative would propose such a liberal thumbing of the nose at caveat emptor and laissez-faire economics. :)

edit: Arlie posted as I was posting -- the biggest reason why there is no comparable policy from other gaming companies is that there have been so few comparative situations -- company releases game that is buggy and without promised features and still doesn't have its act together almost two months later. The only comparable situation was FPS99, which did EXACTLY what Jon is proposing. FOF, BM and all the other games you listed may have had bugs at release, but I am not aware of any of them that released so many patches (which is a sign of sloppiness, not a sign of customer service) without addressing the totality of the problems. You're in uncharted waters here. If this is not personal, then why are you still arguing with this guy?

[sabotai]

Actually, I think there is precedent for Jon's idea. Maybe they used different terminology, but there have been a few "recalls" of games where customers were given a period of time to get their money back. FBPro: 99 being the most famous of them...

I paid for TDCB and I have barely played it. Even if the game is up to par now, my interest in the game has dwindled to non existance. I guess like many others, the thought of the past 2 months of this game's process just leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

But I won't demand a refund. If such a thing like Jon's idea is used, I'll probably take advantage of it. But I did make the mistake of buying early and I'll accept it as punishment for my mistake. But what I won't do is buy anymore .400 products on their release date. I've learned my lesson.

Also, with the team still trying to fix TDCB and get it up and running smoothly, and it being mid-February, and also taking into account that they had a solid game (CAD) to work off of....anyone think they can get a football sim done and ready and COMPLETE by this fall?

[Arles]

First of all, comparing FBPro 99 to TDCB isn't fair at all. Since 1.19, there have been very few (if any) major stability problems and most of the requests have been in the area of AI tweaks and new feature ideas. Plus, Sierra simply decided to recall all versions of the game and disband the series, which is not what I think Jon is advocating here.

I also think that we may have had a disconnect here from the start. Here's a post that I just made on the TDCB board which should clear things up:

----------------------------
Originally posted by MiddleGA
That's why I proposed it with limitations and a statement that this was being done under "unusual circumstances", not as a broad permanent policy change.

Still, you've considered the idea & made your decision. And that was a part of my original request too, so at least I accomplished that much.

I suppose we both move on from here and decide what our next step will be.

Thank you for your consideration,
Jon Loveless

Jon, if you would have asked Joe or myself for a refund last night before this whole discussion began, you would have gotten it. In fact, we will still give you a refund. I thought the whole point of this wasn't about yourself and WAS aimed at getting a "broad permanent policy change".

If all you wanted was special treatment based on circumstances for a refund, you would have gotten that at any point in this process (from Dec to today). We have followed your posts along the way and know the patience that you have shown with TD. In fact, we have given three people with similar situations as yourself a full refund well after the "last return date" (during the 1.19 process) based on prior conversations that we had. We just didn't feel the need to broadcast that to the entire world and wanted to continue dealing with people on a 1-to-1 basis.

So, if you (or SimRat) would have simply asked us for a refund, you would have gotten it (and still can) based exactly on the reasons people have posted above. We have already made 10-15 "special case" refunds to people that were not happy with the progress of the game and had let us know early in the process of their frustration. So, I guess the morale is to ask us next time before going into a lengthly series of posts about what you think we won't do.

Arlie

[korme]

Atleast try 1.21 Jon, good god.

Please, find one problem in it.

[vtbub]

I hope that the cranky attitude of the .400 staff is due to overtiredness.


Guys,

You've botched this up. You released a product that was buggy beyond belief. If any other company did what you did on their first release, they would be out of business. And now after six patches, you get your knickers in a twist because we get upset over a rather big bug?

It is now February. Two major features that was promised on release are still not in the game, women's teams and multiplayer. I think that the community has cut you a tremendous amount of slack. Your products are enjoyable and I will continue to purchase the products that appeal to me.

Your huge mistake is adding new features before old ones are completely fixed. Putting lipstick on a pig does not make the pig any prettier. All games should evolve, the fact that you are willing to patch is very nice. Quality needs to trump quanity, however.

My suggestion at this point is to throw TDCB into an open beta for those who purchased the game on the first night or pre-ordered it. Like you, we want this to work. We want you to succeed. As a whole many of us get enjoyment from .400's products.

I know that you will never please everybody, and I know that you have people who will hang on every word you say. Those of us in the middle are the ones who are showing frustration.

Ron

[korme]

vt, download 1.21

People are posting this without realizing that 1.21 is fully functional.. good god. :rolleyes:

[vtbub]

Actually d/l'd 1.21. Reread what I said.

[korme]

You never mentioned that you did, and it still seems you are grumpy. What's wrong with 1.21?

Do you really want women's teams that badly?

[vtbub]

Haven't played it yet.

And yes I do:(

[korme]

Weirdo. :)

[vtbub]

Oh Shorty:). Would you like to come over and play Buckeye?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Arles We just didn't feel the need to broadcast that to the entire world and wanted to continue dealing with people on a 1-to-1 basis.

But if you had done so, none of this public discussion would have been neccessary. Something to consider perhaps.

So, I guess the morale is to ask us next time before going into a lengthly series of posts about what you think we won't do.

Actually, I think the moral of the story is something quite different, very different in fact, but we can agree to disagree on that I believe.

I'm satisifed that we now appear to be on the same page and that every customer has the same information to base their decision upon.

Thank you for your time,
Jon

{edited to fix vb code typo}

[SirFozzie]

I come not to bury .400, but to..well.. not to praise them.. but eh..

May I make a suggestion, though to Arlie, Jon and any of the .400 software folks? Sign up (or at least offer) positions on the Beta team to Jon, VT, or some of the other folks who are disappointed, (or even as VT said, offer some more of your buying public spots on the beta team.) You'd have some of the harsher critics on the same side, making the game better overtime... and it has the added benefit of showing these folks that you do care..

Also.. in not-so-pure terms, this would temper the criticism from some folks.. Unless it's like a 1.20 bug (TC quite frankly stated that the bug was not in the last beta he received, so it was something introduced at the last second), folks would KNOW about any possible bugs.. and it prevents you from being ambushed.

It's your call, it's your buisness.. But I think this would be a good reach out to those disaffected with .400 software and the two of you (whether for good reasons, or just trying to troll everybody.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by Shorty3281
You never mentioned that you did, and it still seems you are grumpy. What's wrong with 1.21?

Well, in my case, I can't perform recruiting actions on more than one player without a CTD. I didn't have that problem as of 1.19 (didn't do any recruiting in the short time I had 1.20, so I'm not sure if it's in there or not). I've discovered a workaround, though. I just have to change screens after I get done selecting my recruiting actions for the particular player.

It's not a major thing, but let's not tout 1.21 as the finished single-player product. It's not, but it is getting there. :)

Oh...and Arles, in my opinion, comparing TDCB to FBPro 99 isn't that far off base. I was one of the few who could actually play it before they recalled the game. The two titles have taken strikingly similar paths in many respects. To your credit, however, you seem to be on the right track. That's something that the Sierra team couldn't seem to accomplish.

[Joe Canadian]

.400 Studios did infact make a mistake in releasing TDCB far to early. They have admitted that... can't we just move on? People fall into three groups IMO, they are:

1) I've given up on TDCB, and probably .400 Studios for that matter.

2) TDCB still has bugs, but I'm going to stick with it and help with the process of fixing them.

3) TDCB ROCKS! It doesn't have any major bugs, stop reporting bugs!!!!

For people who are in group #1, move on get a refund. Unless your motives are to continuly bash the company and employees, I really don't see the point in dwelling on the subject.

For people in group #3, you are wrong. TDCB still has bugs that need to get fixed.

I'm in group #2, I don't see the point in bashing, or bitterly complaing about the company. Constructive critisim, and bug reporting will eventually solve the problems that exist.

But hey... I'm going to be called a fanboy for this... and that doesn't bother me. It seems that if you don't disagree with a company you are called a fanboy by some. It's a game people... why the constant name calling, lets just help it get fixed and enjoy playing it, and enjoy the community, and enjoy life in general :).

Peace!

[astralhaze]

But Joe, you are a fanboy ;)

[Bee]

I want a pony.

[Joe Stallings]

kcchief:

Once again, Joe is trashing a customer and indicating that if Jon had privately asked for a refund he would get it, but since he went public, screw you. That's garbage.

What are you talking about? I have never trashed a customer, publicly or privately. And you say "once again" I have done this? I think you must have the wrong person. And FYI, the customer in question asked for a refund - in public - and was <b>given</b> a refund less than 24 hours later (I know because I signed off on it). And with no questions asked whatsoever. In fact, the refund was offered, not requested. Get your facts straight.

I came across so many bugs in the demo and poor design choices that I found the game completely unplayable.

I would be interested to know what these were. I read your earlier post on this board about your impressions of the game and I hardly think that constitutes "so many bugs and poor design decisions." Maybe you didn't share all of these bugs in your post. I would like to know what they are.

You're in uncharted waters here

Really? You must not follow the games industry very closely. I'm looking at 4 titles here on my PC which were not very stable (at all) at release. 2 of them were eventually up for game of the year last year. Based on our sales numbers, support requests, and forum feedback, I can say with confidence that approximately 95% of the people who have purchased the game can play the game error-free (and yet we are still updating the game). I think most of your larger developers (with teams of 20-40 people, not 2 like with TDCB) would be content with a number significantly smaller than that, don't you?

kccheif, your disdain for anything related to TDCB, .400 and especially OOTP is well documented on this board. My real question to you is: why? Is it because you think we are lazy? Not dedicated to our customers? Don't work hard enough? Don't listen to suggestions from customers (and non-customers)?

I mean, to indicate that you don't care for a game or even a series of games is one thing, but it seems like you make extra effort to call people out personally. I don't understand why.

JMS

[Bee]

Seriously.

One of those midget ponies.

[Chief Rum]

Don't let kc get your goat, Joe. He has never let the facts (Pac-10 versus Big-12 in football or basketball, FOF4's release, .400 Software issues, Iraq, Republicans, etc.) actually get in the way of his opinion. I find him to be one of the most consistently biased and irrational posters here, because of his refusal to do any legit resarch on issues or to approach anything with even a semblance of objectivity, rationality or free thought and analysis.

Sorry for the harsh judgement, but I have been dealing with his heavy-handed, poorly-thought-out arguments for a couple years now and you just get a little tired of it. JoninMiddleGA's opinion I can respect immensely. vtbub's I can give the benefit of the doubt, too (because I don't know him too well). SimRat I can at least respect the work he puts into his posts, even if I believe he is overwhelmingly negative. But kcchief is just at the limit.

Chief Rum

[vtbub]

Since I can't keep my big mouth shut, I wanted to give my impressions on the 1.21 patch.

I think that it progresses the game a long way. My scorers seem to score. Games flow like games. Staples of college basketball such as flagrant fouls, fastbreaks, tie-ups are finally in the game and not overused.

The 1.21 patch does fix the not being able change defense on the fly. Scrums for the ball seem to add rebounds to the stats of the person that the pbp plays.

It seems harder now for smaller schools to be competitive, truly showing the strengths and weaknesses of your programs.

It seems that we dwell on the negatives of things and just stay quiet when things work well. If it's fair for me to call someone out when things go bad, it would be wrong for me not to give credit when it is deserved.

Arlie, Joe, You did good.

Ron

[astralhaze]

A shettling (sp?) pony? What color?

[Anrhydeddu]

kccheif, your disdain for anything related to TDCB, .400 and especially OOTP is well documented on this board.

Which is exactly the reason why there was no need to feed that troll.

I consider Matt (kcchief19) a friend but Chief Rum's characterization unfortunately is right on, imo. His extreme fanboyism of FOF/Solecismic and extreme anti-fanboyism (is that a word?) of 400 makes his views worth no more than a grain of salt.

As far as TDCB, I hope lessons are learned in what to do better next time.

[RawIsDan]

I always get a kick out of people who try to make it a cause and rally the people. It's just a game. If it doesn't meet your expectations, get your money back and move on.

[Arles]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
As far as TDCB, I hope lessons are learned in what to do better next time.

This, IMO, is the most important item to be gleaned from this entire discussion. As a bit of a game writing newbie, I certainly have learned a great deal of what needs to be done for the next game I work on. Things from putting more time into certain things (which will be easier since I am now developing games fulltime), organizing a BETA team, making sure things are 110% tested before even hinting at a release and, the hardest for me, knowing when to stop making changes or additions before releasing.

I also realize that the next game I do will need to be better than the average guy just to overcome the potential negative initial attitudes that some may have because of how TD was released.

Arlie

[SirFozzie]

Arlie.. without trying to sound condescending.. welcome to the real world of game design.

I once wondered why Jim Gindin never hung out with the folks here on FOFC. After all, 95% of us here support his games, would gladly buy new games from him, and well, that the input of the people who liked the game the most would make future games better off.

But then I realized, that even with the overwhelming positive nature on this board towards FOF, the old saw comes into play. "You Can't Please everybody all the time".

Look at the shellacking that Jim took on the pre-patched version of FOF4. We all new it was going to be fixed, Jim's always been top notch about it, (just like you guys), but still, there was a small but not insignificant crowd of folks calling for his head.

And that's after FIVE seperate games (the four FOF editions, and TCY)

You have 1 and a half games under your belt (I only count CAD as a half game because the whole nature of it changed during it's patches)

It's cold comfort.. but know this.. for every person screaming at you that this is awful, this needs to be fixed, this game is worthless.. there may be 5.. 10.. maybe even 100 folks who enjoy the game. Look at our Village Challenge for example.

TDCB is still a work in progress.. I have a couple issues with 1.21.. it shouldn't be a regular thing for fast breaks to occur after a missed free throw, because there's usually at least one, if not more defenders at half court before the ball is controlled on the rebound.

Multiplayer is still missing, as is the women's teams (I thought that was going to be in 1.20 ;)).

BUT..

TDCB is still a very enjoyable game, and one I spend many hours on. Consider this one person who not only won't ask for a refund.. but will anticipate your next game with hand on wallet, ready to spend.

Thanks for letting me speak my piece.

David "SirFozzie" Yellope

[daedalus]

A teensy bit OT since I don't have TDCB . . . but, although, I can't say I agree with the guy all the time (actually, I seem to disagree with him more often than not) but I can't say kcchief is quite as bad as he seems to be represented here.

[John Galt]

I want a pony too (but not My Little Pony).

[Bee]

Originally posted by astralhaze
A shettling (sp?) pony? What color?

Is that what they are called? Cool.

I'm not particular on the color.

[Vince]

What is this Bee? Are you trying to keep my name off the top of the "Last Post" script? Sheesh...

And I believe it's Schetland Pony...

EDIT: I think I only need a few more posts to have threadkilled the entire first page. I need to find something more constructive to do with my time when I'm drunk on a Saturday night.

[Bee]

I just think there are not enough ponies in college basketball. I think Arlie should address this in an upcoming patch, the customers demand it!

And I think you are right...Schetland Pony sounds right.