Jim Moron, Jr.

[stevew]

Mora says he's happy with Falcons By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com


ATLANTA -- Coach Jim Mora on Friday said that his goal is to stay with the Atlanta Falcons "for a long time," and called his Thursday interview with a Seattle radio station, in which he essentially characterized the head coach position at the University of Washington as his dream job, as only a joke.

"It was me doing a radio interview with a close friend and former college roommate, and just joking about the [Washington] job," Mora told ESPN.com. "In fact, I say two or three times during the thing that I want Ty [Willingham, current Washington coach] to succeed. I mean, I want to be here in Atlanta forever. This is where I want to raise my family. Our 10-year-old, she's how many years away from college, and she's already trying to decide whether she wants to go to Georgia or Georgia Tech. I guess you've got to watch what you say to anybody anymore. I'm doing an interview with my best friend, joking around, and all of a sudden it's a big story. Believe me, there's nothing to it."


The 15-minute interview, on Seattle-based KJR, was hosted by Dave Mahler and Hugh Millen. The latter was a teammate and roommate of Mora at Washington and the two have remained close friends. A former NFL quarterback, Millen has visited with Mora in Atlanta and stayed as a guest at his home.



With about two minutes remaining in the interview, Mahler asks Mora to make him a promise. "If it ever works out, if there's an opening and you're available, we want you to catch the Huskies," Mahler said.



Mora's response: "Well, I really have a lot of respect for Ty, and I know he'll do a great job. But if he ever decides to move on, and get in the NFL, or, you know, go back to Notre Dame or whatever ... if that job's open, you'll find me at the friggin' head of the line, with my resume in hand, ready to take that job."



Later in the interview, Mora contends that he would take the Washington job even if the Falcons were coming off a Super Bowl victory. At one point, he says: "I don't care if we're in the middle of a playoff run, I'm packing my stuff and coming back to Seattle."



Despite his contention that he was not serious, and his reiterations to ESPN.com that he is happy in his current position with the Falcons and that there are no indications Willingham is about to be fired, there is no audible hint of jocularity on Mora's part during the interview. About the only time he laughs is when he suggested that, if he ever landed the Washington job, he would have to hire Millen, whom he refers to by his longtime nickname for him, "Dewey," as his quarterbacks coach.



Millen and Mahler seemed to have provided Mora several opportunities during the interview to make light of the session. Each time, Mora dug his hole a bit deeper, even he acknowledged on Friday.



"Yeah, I probably should have been a little clearer ... but I just figured everybody knew I was joking," Mora said. "I need to be more careful, I guess, about what I say."



Late in the day, the team issued a news release from Mora. In part, it read: "First and foremost, I'm sorry. ... What I said was not appropriate for my players, the Falcons' organization, our fans, and Tyrone Willingham. ... I want every fan in Atlanta to know that my heart and passion are right here with the Falcons, and winning our game this weekend."



Certainly, Mora has a strong feel for his alma mater. He was a walk-on defensive back for the Huskies, a standout player, and later an assistant coach under Washington legend Don James.



And there is this: Two years ago, when Washington was in the midst of its search for a new coach, some intermediaries at the school spoke to Mora about the job, ESPN.com has learned. There are no indications that Mora, who was coming off his first season in Atlanta, a campaign in which he led the Falcons to the NFC championship game, ever discussed the opening with university officials. But he had in-depth talks with the intermediaries before opting to not pursue the job.

Friday, Washington officials released a statement which said, in part: "The leadership at UW has the greatest confidence that [Willingham] will soon return UW to its place as one of the elite college football programs in Division I football. It is certainly an expectation of ours that there would be a great deal of interest in what we feel like is one of the top head coaching jobs in the country. However, the position is simply not available and we have no expectation that it will be in the forseeable future."

Mora, 45, is in his third season with the Falcons, his first job as an NFL head coach, and has compiled a 27-20 record, to counting playoff games After an 11-5 mark in 2004, his debut season, the Falcons fell to 8-8 in 2005, despite a 6-2 start to the season. Atlanta is 7-6 this year and battling for an NFC wild card spot.

There has been some speculation that Mora's job security is tenuous, and owner Arthur Blank recently told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution that an 8-8 record and a non-playoff year were not acceptable. There have been no signs, however, that Blank is inclined to dismiss Mora, whom he likes. It is more likely that Blank, who sought changes on Mora's coaching staff a year ago but was rebuffed, might mandate some alterations among the assistants.

Whether a joke or not, Mora's comments in the radio interview likely will not play well with Blank, who has expressed some concerns in the past about his coach's temperament and missteps.

I wonder if he'll make it to next season in the ATL. Certainly not good to hear your coach talking like this, even if he's "just joking."

[Maple Leafs]

I don't think you have this whole "parody post" thing down, yet.

[stevew]

I swear that was a computer glich. Lately it's been double posting for me out of my control.

[KWhit]

Wow. ATL talk radio is going nuts about this right now.

[KWhit]

They're playing other clips from the interview and Mora rips the Atlanta media too - sounding totally serious while he's doing it.

It doesn't sound like he's joking about any of this.

[Butter]

What else to expect from Playoffs?!?!, Jr.

[GrantDawg]

They're playing other clips from the interview and Mora rips the Atlanta media too - sounding totally serious while he's doing it.

It doesn't sound like he's joking about any of this.

It didn't to me, either.

[KWhit]

From the clips I have heard of the interview, this is actually worse than the article makes it sound.

[GrantDawg]

From the clips I have heard of the interview, this is actually worse than the article makes it sound.


Honestly? I'd have fired him. They just might after the Cowboys game.

[stevew]

Who wins in a battle of wits, Moron Jr., or Vick? Always seemed like it made sense to have one of the dumbest qb in the league coached by the dumbest head coach in the league.

[Ben E Lou]

There is no Jim Mora, Jr.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

Well, there might be, but he's not the Falcons' coach. Tuning in to the Stews now to catch up...

[sooner333]

Well, on the bright side...maybe he put himself in the running for the Alabama job!

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

Well, there might be, but he's not the Falcons' coach. Tuning in to the Stews now to catch up...

"Rowdy" Roddy Piper is on the Stews right now! :D :D :D

[Radii]

From the clips I have heard of the interview, this is actually worse than the article makes it sound.


From what I've heard I agree with this completely. It didn't sound like he was joking at all.

[Eaglesfan27]

Does anyone else think he is trying to get fired? These clips sound very bad, and I just can't imagine him being that stupid.

[AlexB]

I think the title of this thread deserves a http://www.talkingballs.co.uk/images/smilies/tumbleweed.gif

[JonInMiddleGA]

I wonder if he'll make it to next season in the ATL.

I sure hope not.

I've reached the conclusion that he really is as dumb as he appears to be. It's not an act, it's not poor p.r., it's just that he's really as fucking stupid as he seems.

Naturally this means the if Blank wises up & removes him he won't even have to leave Atlanta. He'll be snapped up for a key role down on North Avenue lickity split, he'd be a perfect fit with the existing coaching staff.

[Ben E Lou]

Naturally this means the if Blank wises up & removes him he won't even have to leave Atlanta. He'll be snapped up for a key role down on North Avenue lickity split...http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_pray.gif (javascript:emoticon(':pray:')) http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_pray.gif (javascript:emoticon(':pray:')) http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_pray.gif (javascript:emoticon(':pray:')) http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_pray.gif (javascript:emoticon(':pray:')) http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_pray.gif (javascript:emoticon(':pray:'))

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/16253327.htm
You'd think I'd learn. You think you get enough shots at this, you'd figure it out. But I never cease to amaze myself at some of the things that come flying out of my mouth before I can get them back."

Nah Jimmy. I used to think that, but now I've figured out that you're simply an idiot & can't help it.

[Tekneek]

Does anyone else think he is trying to get fired? These clips sound very bad, and I just can't imagine him being that stupid.

Why not? I'm trying to figure out just why everybody thought he was so great.

[Rando]

There is no Jim Mora, Jr.

I had thought that all this talk of a "Jim Mora jr" was a result of people not realizing that because the Falcon's head coach and his father didn't share the same middle name, the younger one wouldn't be known as "Jr". Then I learned the terrible truth.

It seems that Arthur Blank, upon learning that his quarterback was apparently a "Coach killer" decided his team needed a backup plan, should the unthinkable occur. So he had some crackpot scientist create a 1/3 sized clone of Jim Mora.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3918/minimora1ea2.jpg
He's the little one. (on the right)

I can't say I agree with the idea that what the organization needs is more Mora, but I have heard that the little guy has been a positive locker room influence with his unique ability to look Warrick Dunn in the eye while speaking to him.

Also I have to say, if I were going to create a 1/3 sized clone of any NFL coach, I'd have to go with Bill Parcells.

[Solecismic]

I thought I was going to have to put another person on ignore when I clicked on this title. Phew. Missed the big Mora controversy while I was out of town. Humor is always lost on the media. They ran Keith Foulke out of here for much the same reason.

[Yellow5]

I was in the car coming home that day and heard the entire thing and didn't take it serious at all. I thought it was clear that he was just having some fun talking to Millen.

He was also talking about how Fox Sports can kiss his ass. :)

[Tekneek]

I thought I was going to have to put another person on ignore when I clicked on this title. Phew. Missed the big Mora controversy while I was out of town. Humor is always lost on the media. They ran Keith Foulke out of here for much the same reason.

This always happens...which should make someone wonder why he didn't know. He may have thought he was just joking around with an old pal, but if it is on the radio it may very well end up going everywhere. When you are already on the hot seat, this sort of banter on the radio isn't going to make it better. Go out and lose the next football game and it looks even worse. It makes it look like he is in over his head. It doesn't have to be true for it to be one more thing that helps him get fired.

[KWhit]

It did NOT sound like he was joking. At a couple of points in the interview he said "I'm not kidding" and "I'm absolutely serious."

He was not yuck-yucking around.

[waltwal]

now i know why the President of the US has a press secretary. That way when something crazy is said it is always possible to say that the spokesperson got it confused. Everyone (yes i mean everyone) should have a spokesperson that way anything that is ever said can ultimately be written off as a mistake by the spokesperson. i have spoken to John Kerry on this matter and he, Mel Gibson and Michael Richards agree with me on this matter. i guess you can add the Mora family to the group.

[GrantDawg]

Is there any word on whether Moron made it out of the stadium with the pink slip, or will they give him time to pack and give it to him tommorow? After todays game, there is not a single person, from the front office down, that should have a job by Tuesday.

[Buccaneer]

A serious question. If you (Falcons) had your pick of any coaches in the league, who would you have at head coach and oc?

[ISiddiqui]

A serious question. If you (Falcons) had your pick of any coaches in the league, who would you have at head coach and oc?

Any coach? I think I'd go with Cowher and Mularkey. Now the Steelers didn't do well this year, but I think their coaching philosophy would be best for the Falcons (they wouldn't try to pigeon hole a West Coast offense on that bunch).

Though I seriously believe that firing Dan Reeves was one of the dumbest things the Falcons have done in the "Vick era".

[GrantDawg]

A serious question. If you (Falcons) had your pick of any coaches in the league, who would you have at head coach and oc?

Cower or Fisher as head coach. I'm not sure on a name as a OC. The team needs more of a personnel change on the o-line and receiving corp than anything. Two big interior linemen and at least two receivers that runs great routes and have sure hands.

[Buccaneer]

at least two receivers that runs great routes and have sure hands.<!-- / message -->

Aren't those a valuable/scarce commodity in the league?

[GrantDawg]

Aren't those a valuable/scarce commodity in the league?


They are, but not impossible to find. The Falcons don't need a TO as much as a Wayne Chrebet. Great hands, fundamentally sound. And considering they have spent two first round picks on receivers in the last three years, you'd think they could have at least one.

[ISiddiqui]

They are, but not impossible to find. The Falcons don't need a TO as much as a Wayne Chrebet. Great hands, fundamentally sound. And considering they have spent two first round picks on receivers in the last three years, you'd think they could have at least one.

And this is where the loss of Finneran hurt Vick. Would have been a really nice option.

[GrantDawg]

And this is where the loss of Finneran hurt Vick. Would have been a really nice option.


The way Vick has played this year, it may have been the difference in two more wins.

[flere-imsaho]

two receivers that runs great routes and have sure hands.

Vick is often inaccurate and throws the ball as fast as possible with no touch. So, receivers with great hands I agree with, but I'd stress body control (i.e. being able to adjust body position on the fly) over straight-forward route running.

[VPI97]

Vick is often inaccurate and throws the ball as fast as possible with no touch. So, receivers with great hands I agree with, but I'd stress body control (i.e. being able to adjust body position on the fly) over straight-forward route running.
You don't watch many Atlanta games, do you? Vick has shown tremendous improvement on his touch in most of his outings this year. In years past, what you said may have been true, but not this season.

[stevew]

Cower or Fisher as head coach. I'm not sure on a name as a OC. The team needs more of a personnel change on the o-line and receiving corp than anything. Two big interior linemen and at least two receivers that runs great routes and have sure hands.

You guys can have Cowher in one more week.

[flere-imsaho]

You don't watch many Atlanta games, do you? Vick has shown tremendous improvement on his touch in most of his outings this year. In years past, what you said may have been true, but not this season.

I've seen four Falcons' games this year, the latest being two weeks ago. While I'll agree that he's shown improvement, I wouldn't call it "tremendous". He still shows a propensity to just wing it in there and hope for the best, especially when he's a) behind b) under pressure or c) hasn't played well so far that game.

I stand by my statement: if the Falcons want Vick to complete passes to his receivers, they need to find and invest in receivers who, first-and-foremost, have great hands and great body control.

[AgustusM]

I never understood how he got the job in the first place. when he was on the niners he was the defensive coordination that was consistently in the bottom 10 of defensive teams every year the coached them. true, there was not a lot of talent to work with, but I will still amazed (and happy, hell I wanted him fired as DC) that he got the falcons job.

[Kodos]

Blank should also fire the current uniform designer and go back to either the classic black or red unis with the old falcon logo.

[dawgfan]

Jim Mora the elder was correct - Michael Vick is a coach-killer. Phenomenal athlete, and I think Mora the younger and his assistants are doing a great job of leveraging his strengths, but I think Vick's "potential" is going to doom his coaches for as long as he's considered to have that "potential".

I'd love to have Mora the younger at the UW.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'd love to have Mora the younger at the UW.

And so would Falcons fans.

[Rizon]

Jim Mora the elder was correct - Michael Vick is a coach-killer. Phenomenal athlete, and I think Mora the younger and his assistants are doing a great job of leveraging his strengths, but I think Vick's "potential" is going to doom his coaches for as long as he's considered to have that "potential".

I'd love to have Mora the younger at the UW.

"

It took the Steelers 8 years to figure this one out, which means the Falcons should have it figured out by 2008.

[dawgfan]

And so would Falcons fans.
How about a swap - you guys hire Ty Willingham and we'll take Mora.

[Maple Leafs]

It took the Steelers 8 years to figure this one out, which means the Falcons should have it figured out by 2008.
Seriously. When will the Falcons learn, you can not win a Super Bowl with some over-rated, crappy QB who puts up terrible passing ratings like, say, 22.6.

[ISiddiqui]

Seriously. When will the Giants learn, you can not win a Super Bowl with some over-rated, crappy QB who puts up terrible passing ratings like, say, 28.3

--

Considering the lack of talent on the Falcons, I wonder what kind of record people think the Falcons would have without Vick? Oh right... that happened when Vick was injured for a year... how did that work out anyway?

Though, interestly, the total offensive yardage rank for the Falcons has gone up from last year (which went up from 2004). The main problem has been the lack of rushing TDs. Which has gone done each year since the 11-5, NFC Championship year. This year, for the #1 rushing team to be 23th in rushing TDs is a disgrace (btw, they are 14th in passing TDs, which is an improvement over last year, which was an improvement over 2004). It seems the loss of Duckett was bigger than thought, now that there is lacking a big brusing back to get those short yardage TDs and they've had to settle for chip shot FGs.

[QuikSand]

The main problem has been the lack of rushing TDs. Which has gone done each year since the 11-5, NFC Championship year. This year, for the #1 rushing team to be 23th in rushing TDs is a disgrace.

Seems to me this is a broader reflection on the nature of the Falcons running game -- it's clearly not the traditional grind-it-out, ball-control rushing attack that you think of from most top rushing teams. Theirs is far more opportunistic, for lack of a better term. I seem to recall some analysis, maybe from Football Outsiders, discussing the Falcons and how their rushing success rate was far lower than other teams who post big rushing totals.

[rkmsuf]

#1 rushing team will always be a huge misdirection as to the nature of the Falcons. With Vick running on passing plays and going for 1,000 yards, their ability to "run" the ball in the traditional sense is overstated.

Such as at the goalline. The fact they lead the league in rushing has no bearing on their ability to get 1 or 2 yards on 3rd or 4th down without using some semblence of finesse.

The Falcons on offense are inconsistent. That clashes with the traditional view of a powerful running team but is consistent when you watch how they play. Vick led offenses will always be this at their best. At their worst they will be a terrible, turnover prone offense if they try and insist Vick be a pure passer.

Falcons best friend would be a great defense but that they do not have.

[ISiddiqui]

Seems to me this is a broader reflection on the nature of the Falcons running game -- it's clearly not the traditional grind-it-out, ball-control rushing attack that you think of from most top rushing teams. Theirs is far more opportunistic, for lack of a better term. I seem to recall some analysis, maybe from Football Outsiders, discussing the Falcons and how their rushing success rate was far lower than other teams who post big rushing totals.

Interestingly enough, Duckett, even though he didn't have many yards rushing last year, did have 8 TDs rushing. Which was the same number of rushing TDs he had in 2004 (and he had 11 in 2003). It seems the Falcons have missed that presense at the goalline, because Duckett was their downhill, grind-it-out running back. Norwood is more like Dunn, a shifty, more finesse type runner.

[Deattribution]

Mora isn't the Falcon's biggest problem, and I think Falcon fans will figure that out next year if he's gone and then they are even worse.

Vick doesn't understand how to put touch on the ball, everything he throws is a 100mph fast ball and that contributes to the number of dropped passes. It's still the receivers responsibility to catch the ball, but unless him and his receivers build some chemistry (which a new coach could potentially help) it doesn't matter who they bring in, they will look like shit.

[GrantDawg]

Mora isn't the Falcon's biggest problem, and I think Falcon fans will figure that out next year if he's gone and then they are even worse.

Vick doesn't understand how to put touch on the ball, everything he throws is a 100mph fast ball and that contributes to the number of dropped passes. It's still the receivers responsibility to catch the ball, but unless him and his receivers build some chemistry (which a new coach could potentially help) it doesn't matter who they bring in, they will look like shit.


Replay the drops, and you will see that is not the problem. In the past, yes, but not this year. The drops this year were not (largely) on hard thrown passes. There were many, many perfectly thrown passes dropped this year by wide open receivers. I think the drops really were a mental thing on the receivers. The press that follow the team say that the receivers never drop passes in practice. They just seem to lose the ability to catch once the clock starts on a real game.

[Deattribution]

There are some real gems in here from 'Coach Killer' Ron Mexico

The Atlanta Falcons are 7-8 and could be eliminated from postseason contention before Sunday's kickoff against the Eagles. If they don't make the playoffs, it will be for the second straight season. Their last playoff game was the last time the Falcons visited Philadelphia, the NFC Championship Game on Jan. 23, 2005.

Surely, they will be looking for the reasons why they haven't been able to get back to the playoffs. One person who has absolved himself from the blame is quarterback Michael Vick.

"I rushed for (over) 1,000 yards this year," said Vick in a conference call with Philadelphia reporters on Wednesday. "I threw a career-high 19 touchdowns, still one game to go. I've accomplished a lot of things. I think I've played consistently week in and week out. I can't say what more I could've done. What I can say is that I feel good about what I've accomplished this season."

Vick said he doesn't know what else he can do to help the team
Yes, Vick has thrown for 2,393 yards and became the first quarterback in NFL history to rush for over 1,000 yards in a season. It is true that he has thrown a career-high 19 touchdown passes this season. So, why aren't the Falcons having more success, especially on offense? In what many would have considered a must-win game against the Carolina Panthers last week, the Falcons only mustered three points. Vick only threw for 109 yards and two interceptions.

But if you ask him, Vick simply doesn't know where things have gone wrong this season. To him, his stats have been "gravy."

"I don't know. I can't really say," said Vick. "That's for you guys to go watch the film and see what really went wrong. Stat-wise, everything looks good. It looks gravy. I think we had a good year, but at the same time something didn't go right. That's the question that needs to be answered.

"Anytime you have over 3,000 yards of total offense in a season as a player, I think you should be in the winning bracket in the wins and loss column. You should have way more wins than you have losses."

But they don't. Is offensive coordinator Greg Knapp putting Vick and the Falcons in a good position to win games?

"I don't know," said Vick. "I think so. I hope so. I can't say. I really can't say."

Is it the wide receivers? The Falcons have three former first-round picks at wide receiver (Michael Jenkins, Ashley Lelie and Roddy White) and none of them have more than 37 receptions or 420 yards this season.

"We've had a lot of dropped balls this year, but as a player I have to move on," said Vick. "I'm going to take the heat. I'm going to take the criticism for the losses."

At least Vick doesn't complain to the media.

"I never went to the press and said this is what's going on," said Vick. "I just take all the heat."

Yet, the former No. 1 overall draft pick believes that he's criticized differently than other quarterbacks.

"I'm looked at in a totally different echelon than everybody else," said Vick. "Even though we all great. I don't see commentators and reporters saying certain things about quarterbacks that they say about me when they're making mistakes. It's like I'm the worst person in the world when I throw an interception. Other guys go out and throw four or five interceptions in a game, and it's all good. Nobody talks about it. I throw one and I'm not doing my job. It's tough, but I don't even care. "

Vick admitted the toughest part of this season, and he's had a few including the time he improperly gestured to Falcons fans following a 31-13 blowout loss to the Saints on Nov. 26, was when his head coach's father, Jim Mora Sr., a former NFL head coach, called him a "coach killer" and said that "he's not a passer."

"I was just trying to figure out why would he say that and where did it come from," said Vick. "I never figured it out. I never knew why. I always went out and played each game 100 percent."

How can Mora say Vick's not a passer? The stats speak for themselves.

"I've got 19 touchdown passes," said Vick. "What more can you say? It shouldn't even be a question. It's not even a question anymore. A career-high.."

Exactly.

Atleast he will always have one fan (himself, that is). I understand the guy has had a decent to good season, but to have your starting QB talking about how 'gravy' his #'s are when his team is about to be 8-8 and out of the playoffs at best... ugh.

And here's another account of the same conference call....

In the conference call today, Michael Vick said he's got his mind on playing well against the Birds on Sunday and making sure they get back to Atlanta before the New Year comes in on Sunday night. He had the nerve to say that. You can see his mind isn't on the game and the commitment to try to win their last game. Vick is thinking about the New Year's Eve party that will take place afterwards.

When asked about the NFC Championship game he played against the Eagles a couple of years ago, he said he remembers the cold weather and he wished he had taken it more seriously. How can this guy have the nerve to say that? He wishes he had taken it more seriously. I don't see how the Atlanta fans could put up with a guy who would say such a thing.

Over and over again Vick talked about how he was having a great year passing because he had a career best 19 TD passes. He talked about the 19 TD passes like that was a special accomplishment. The young QB says he thinks he's treated differently than other quarterbacks because more is asked of him.

Vick was gushing with praise for himself and the great year he's had even though he didn't even make the All-Pro squad. Vick said, "I rushed for 1,000 yards this year. I threw a career-high 19 touchdowns, with still one game to go. I've accomplished a lot of things. I think I've played consistently week in and week out. I can't say what more I could've done. What I can say is that I feel good about what I've accomplished this season." This is flat out ridiculous when you consider the guy is throwing for less than two hundred yards a game. I don't see how the Falcons can think they can win a championship with Vick having such low passing standards.

[QuikSand]

I'm definitely with the second statement above. After this many seasons in the league, don't we now consider 19 TD for a season to be... well... pretty weak, all things considered?

[stevew]

Asking for praise for a 19 TD is the football equivalent of the Chris Rock "I ain't never been to jail" bit.

[st.cronin]

I'm no fan of Vick, but I think the Vick bashing goes a little bit overboard. I think he's a good qb. He's very similar in some ways to Allen Iverson. He's certainly not the prototypical qb, but I absolutely think he could win a Super Bowl.

[Kodos]

It's gravy.

I was a fan of Vick when he came in and seemed to have a lot of potential, but at this point I can't imagine him ever becoming a true passing threat. Averaging slightly over 1 passing TD a game is gravy?

[ISiddiqui]

Well 19 TDs is a career high and his team has gone to a Conference Championship (with a 1st round bye) in the past.

And he did say his stats looked 'gravy' but something just didn't go right. He wasn't just praising himself and saying everyone else sucks. In fact he said he'll take the heat.

[VPI97]

I'm definitely with the second statement above. After this many seasons in the league, don't we now consider 19 TD for a season to be... well... pretty weak, all things considered?
Weak? Really? Nineteen touchdowns put him in the top 10 in the league and his attempts per TD ratio is better than all of those above him but Manning & Palmer. Yeah...weak.

I think Vick hit the nail on the head with his comments that he gets criticized differently than any other quarterback.

[ISiddiqui]

I think Vick hit the nail on the head with his comments that he gets criticized differently than any other quarterback.

And this thread proves it :D. I actually just looked at attempts per TD myself to make that point. Compared to the number of attempts he has 19 TDs is a very nice number, especially when you consider that the team is a run first, run often, offense.

[Kodos]

But they don't have a good goaline runner, so don't they end up passing more in the redzone than a true running team. Vick's rushing numbers make their running game look better on paper than it is.

[cuervo72]

Weak? Really? Nineteen touchdowns put him in the top 10 in the league and his attempts per TD ratio is better than all of those above him but Manning & Palmer. Yeah...weak.

I think Vick hit the nail on the head with his comments that he gets criticized differently than any other quarterback.

10th in the league, but if you were to combine McNabb/Garcia (28), McNair/Boller (21), Batch/Roethlisberger (22), Cutler/Plummer (19), Hasslebeck/Wallace (25), Romo/Bledsoe (24), then not quite as high on the list. Sure, Vick has been more durable, but the top 10 might be misleading here.

[cuervo72]

But sure, attempts/TD is another matter.

[VPI97]

But they don't have a good goaline runner, so don't they end up passing more in the redzone than a true running team. Vick's rushing numbers make their running game look better on paper than it is.
In theory, that would be true. But in actuality, Mora and Knapp insist on running Dunn into the line for no gain in goalline opportunities. That's why the team's red zone numbers are horrible, why the team is 7-8 and why they're not going to the playoffs.

[cuervo72]

Looking at team stats, their poor 3rd down % can't help things much either.

[Deattribution]

Of these amazing 19tds he's thrown, 15 of them came in 5 games (4, 4, 3, 2, 2)... This would be nice if the season wasn't 16 games long. That's 4tds in the other 10 games.

[VPI97]

Of these amazing 19tds he's thrown, 15 of them came in 5 games (4, 4, 3, 2, 2)... This would be nice if the season wasn't 16 games long. That's 4tds in the other 10 games.

So 78% of his TD's came in five games? Well, 78% of Tom Brady's TD's came in seven games....don't see you railing on him now, do we?

[Deattribution]

So 78% of his TD's came in five games? Well, 78% of Tom Brady's TD's came in seven games....don't see you railing on him now, do we?

What's the Pats record? How many rings does he have? How reliable has he been? What type of yardage has he put up comparable to Vick? I'd say 4 to 1 atleast.

Uh, yeah... I'm sure we could pull some comparable numbers of Vick and Montana too, if you really want but that doesn't make Vick, Montana, nor does it make Brady, Vick.

He isn't consistent, when hes' bad, he's bad. When he's good, he wants to be considered great.

[VPI97]

What's the Pats record? How many rings does he have? How reliable has he been? What type of yardage has he put up comparable to Vick? I'd say 4 to 1 atleast.
When it comes to 2006, they both have no shot at a ring and Vick has put up more total yardage than Brady.

[QuikSand]

I think Vick hit the nail on the head with his comments that he gets criticized differently than any other quarterback.

Takling that at face value, I think I agree. Part of that is that those who try to look at this stuff fairly analytically have a hard time measuring the effect of a really mobile QB on the rest of the game. He's clearly a serious running threat - that adds greatly to his overall value - but it's hard to know how to add that into the mix when the most traditional measures of a QB's contributions are in the passing game. There;s also little doubt that defenses have to play ATL differently because of Vick's skills. But again - I don't know how much of their overall rushing game's success is attributable to the threat of Vick. Some, I'd hazard, but I've got nothing but a guess there.

And when we look at traditional passer measures, it's just tough to find a lot to like about Vick's results. His completion percentage is just awful, his yards per attempt is pedestrian, his interception percentage is mediocre... and his passer rating (the supposedly combined measure of all this sort of stuff) is well below average. SO, superficially, this makes him look like a lousy passer. Some people say that watching him play backs this up, others disagree. I don't get to watch enough ATL games to have a strong opinion.

So, it gets frustrating to feel like it's a moving target. As of a few years go, we were told to focus on the W/L record by the Vick supporters -- that he wins games, and that's what counts. And ATL behind Vick did indeed win plenty of games for a stretch there. Now they aren't winnign quite as many games, and we're being told to focus on a cherry-picked set of stats? A career-high TD total? TD/attempt ratios? Both are fine, and his TD/attempt ratio is an impressive number -- but it sure does seem like the lack of a power running back on the team does have at least something to do with it -- Duckett had 8 TDs last year, right? Take away just 4 of those short Vick TD passes and turn them into short Duckett runs, and you're right back to Atl-with-Vick's usual total -- about 1 passing TD per game, which ranks a bitl below average for an NFL team. I'm just not all that wowed by the 19 TD total, or any single stat that supports it.

So, from an analytical perspective... it's tough to come to any conclusion other than Vick is a super-talented runner, who either lacks the skill to be a very effective NFL passer, or hasn't found a system that allows him to do so. I know that we get to hear about his lack of supporting cast, or the lack of a system built to suit him, but that simply can't be the whole story, can it? Isn't there just something direct about the ability to read defenses, make the right throws to the right places at the right time?

I'm at a loss. I am no expert here. I'd like to feel comfortable reaching some kind of firm conclusion about a player who has been a regular starter at such a stat-rich position for this long in the NFL. But honestly, the fact that there continues to be such a debate about Vick is awfully interesting -- maybe it is that he's finally the guy to come along and break the mold on how we try to analytically assess the effectiveness of quarterbacks.

[Deattribution]

When it comes to 2006, they both have no shot at a ring and Vick has put up more total yardage than Brady.

This is news to me, last I saw the Pats were in the playoffs. They don't have the best chance, but they by far have a better chance than the Falcons.

Some more comparisons

Vick has 6 games in which he hasn't thrown a single TD, for a whooping 792 yards. That's a tad over 130 yards per game.

Brady has 3, in those games 3 games he threw for 584 yards. That's including a game where him and his team were completely dismembered by the Dolphins scheme.

Total yardage for Vick, 3415. On 52% passing (despite only throwing 374 passes he can't throw 60%) and a 74.9 passer rating.

Total yardage for Brady, 3407. (huge difference there huh, hope those 8 yards makes up for the difference in record) 61.8%, one less INT, 4 more TDs and a 87.0 QB rating.

The one thing they do have in common is they both have garbage receivers, yet Brady is clearly the more efficient passer by far.

[flere-imsaho]

You can talk stats all you want, but that's not what really stood out for me from the articles.

How about this:

But if you ask him, Vick simply doesn't know where things have gone wrong this season. To him, his stats have been "gravy."

"I don't know. I can't really say," said Vick. "That's for you guys to go watch the film and see what really went wrong. Stat-wise, everything looks good. It looks gravy. I think we had a good year, but at the same time something didn't go right. That's the question that needs to be answered.

From Vick's perspective, as long as he puts up good numbers, then he's done his job and the fact that the Falcons can't win more than every other game is not his problem. Is this the perspective of a leader?

Do we recall Peyton Manning, in 2004, ending the season by saying "Well, I threw 49 TDs, so it's obviously not my fault."?

Do we anticipate Ladanian Tomlinson, should the Chargers not win the Super Bowl, saying "Hey, I scored 31 TDs, it's not my problem."?

He isn't consistent, when hes' bad, he's bad. When he's good, he wants to be considered great.

Exactly.

[VPI97]

The one thing they do have in common is they both have garbage receivers, yet Brady is clearly the more efficient passer by far.
Well, it's not all that clear that he's been more efficient player. On average, the Falcons gain more yards per play when the ball is in Vick's hands than the Pats do when the ball is in Brady's hands.

Goes back to the whole concept of people not knowing how to judge a player like Michael Vick. Of course the people who try to pigeonhole him into a certain way that they think a QB should play are going to be critical. But, in my opinion, those people are close minded and have no interest in looking at Vick objectively for one reason or another.

[flere-imsaho]

Of course the people who try to pigeonhole him into a certain way that they think a QB should play are going to be critical. But, in my opinion, those people are close minded and have no interest in looking at Vick objectively for one reason or another.

I'd love to look at Vick objectively, but it's here that I agree with QuikSand's post, in that it's difficult to determine what objective criteria we should (now) use to judge Vick.

Your argument is not helped by Vick's continuing insistence that he's a great and special player, despite the fact that he's unable to lead his team consistently to victory from the game's most influential position.

Well, it's not all that clear that he's been more efficient player. On average, the Falcons gain more yards per play when the ball is in Vick's hands than the Pats do when the ball is in Brady's hands.

On average, the Patriots win more games per season when the Brady is QB than the Falcons do when Vick is their QB.

[VPI97]

Do we recall Peyton Manning, in 2004, ending the season by saying "Well, I threw 49 TDs, so it's obviously not my fault."?

Didn't Manning end last season by throwing his offensive linemen under the bus and blaming them for the loss to Pittsburgh?

Your argument is not helped by Vick's continuing insistence that he's a great and special player, despite the fact that he's unable to lead his team consistently to victory from the game's most influential position.
He's the winningest quarterback in franchise history.

On average, the Patriots win more games per season when the Brady is QB than the Falcons do when Vick is their QB.
:rolleyes: <!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

[Deattribution]

Goes back to the whole concept of people not knowing how to judge a player like Michael Vick. Of course the people who try to pigeonhole him into a certain way that they think a QB should play are going to be critical. But, in my opinion, those people are close minded and have no interest in looking at Vick objectively for one reason or another.

There is a reason why there is a perception of what a QB should be, because it works.

He does alot of fancy plays, he scores some pretty TDs but he isn't winning. He's not even a threat anymore, people have adjusted to him and he's just an after thought... That's what he's more pissy about than anything, because the attention isn't centered on him anymore despite the fact he's evolved zero as a passer, or a player.

Vick would be amazing if he could actually throw the ball consistently, but putting a running back at QB doesn't make you the team changing the way the game is played, it only makes you the team with a RB at QB.

[Deattribution]

Didn't Manning end last season by throwing his offensive linemen under the bus and blaming them for the loss to Pittsburgh?


He's the winningest quarterback in franchise history.




Manning said 'we had some problems with our offensive line'.

Do you have anymore excuses you could toss out there?

The most wins for a QB in franchise history for a franchise that has never done jack-squat except walk into a SB stomping.

You complain that people have close minds, and compare too much to other players yet all you do is throw out names of other players. It's ridiculous. Every time your argument is disputed you throw out another name.

[VPI97]

There is a reason why there is a perception of what a QB should be, because it works.

He does alot of fancy plays, he scores some pretty TDs but he isn't winning. He's not even a threat anymore, people have adjusted to him and he's just an after thought... That's what he's more pissy about than anything, because the attention isn't centered on him anymore despite the fact he's evolved zero as a passer, or a player.

Vick would be amazing if he could actually throw the ball consistently, but putting a running back at QB doesn't make you the team changing the way the game is played, it only makes you the team with a RB at QB.
*shurg*

It's obvious you have issues with him, but none of your arguments above are based on fact...just opinion. His role as QB is different from that of most QB roles around the league and people hate him for it. Why that is, I don't know.

[flere-imsaho]

Didn't Manning end last season by throwing his offensive linemen under the bus and blaming them for the loss to Pittsburgh?

At least he was being specific (and correct). Vick's comments show that he just doesn't care - as long as he puts up stats, the Falcons should either win or, if they're not, it's not because of him. That's not the attitude of a leader.

He's the winningest quarterback in franchise history.

You have to admit that the bar's a bit low.

:rolleyes:

So the ability to win games is less important than the ability to gain yards? Interesting viewpoint.

[VPI97]

Do you have anymore excuses you could toss out there?
What?

The most wins for a QB in franchise history for a franchise that has never done jack-squat except walk into a SB stomping.
What?

You complain that people have close minds, and compare too much to other players yet all you do is throw out names of other players. It's ridiculous. Every time your argument is disputed you throw out another name.
flere brought up Manning.

[Deattribution]

*shurg*

It's obvious you have issues with him, but none of your arguments above are based on fact...just opinion. His role as QB is different from that of most QB roles around the league and people hate him for it. Why that is, I don't know.

Umm, what isn't fact? I haven't seen anything I said disputed, only other excuses follow...

His first couple years the only team that seemed to have a handle on Vick was Tampa Bay, that's by far not the case anymore, obvious by the FACT that they're going on two 8-8 (possibly 7-9) seasons without a playoff appearence.

His role is no different, every QB is a QB, he just refuses to put in the effort to be a QB that can run, he prefers to coast along on his 1000 yard rushing seasons and his terrible passing stats saying he's great.

[VPI97]

At least he was being specific (and correct). Vick's comments show that he just doesn't care - as long as he puts up stats, the Falcons should either win or, if they're not, it's not because of him. That's not the attitude of a leader
Well, that interpretation of his quote came from you. It's an interpretation that I don't share (and neither do the people down here accoring to local radio). It's pretty much accepted that he was trying not to come right out and say that Knapp has been horrible.

So the ability to win games is less important than the ability to gain yards? Interesting viewpoint.
My point was that the Pats of the past 5 years without Brady are head and shoulders above the Falcons without Vick in that time fram. Comparing team results from the two franchises is ridiculous.

[flere-imsaho]

flere brought up Manning.

So? You brought up Brady.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm at a loss. I am no expert here. I'd like to feel comfortable reaching some kind of firm conclusion about a player who has been a regular starter at such a stat-rich position for this long in the NFL. But honestly, the fact that there continues to be such a debate about Vick is awfully interesting -- maybe it is that he's finally the guy to come along and break the mold on how we try to analytically assess the effectiveness of quarterbacks.

To tell you the truth, I'm interested in what will happen if Vince Young becomes another Vick (which I think he will in terms of style of QB). Now Young may end up being a better passer than Vick, but I'm not sure if he will. Young does win a lot of games with his legs and seems to be praised for his leadership, so I want to see if his career influences what is said about Vick in the future.

Interestingly, and it may just be me, but it seems that the media that used to be gaga for Vick (and some still are) have migrated to Vince Young.

From Vick's perspective, as long as he puts up good numbers, then he's done his job and the fact that the Falcons can't win more than every other game is not his problem. Is this the perspective of a leader?

You know, I really am starting to believe those people who say that some people just want to take shots at Vick. Later on in the article he says the losses are on him. He'll take the heat. He NEVER said it was not his problem, yet two people who want to take shots at Vick are saying he did. Even though he clearly says he'll take the heat. Misconstruing his words seems to be done fairly often by those who are interested in degrading him.

And what's wrong with saying that he doesn't know what is wrong since the offense put up good numbers?

If Peyton Manning has 50 TDs and the team doesn't make the playoffs, don't you think he'd be wondering what went wrong because they've thrown for all those TDs? Would that mean that he thinks it is not his problem?

[DaddyTorgo]

Well, it's not all that clear that he's been more efficient player. On average, the Falcons gain more yards per play when the ball is in Vick's hands than the Pats do when the ball is in Brady's hands.

Goes back to the whole concept of people not knowing how to judge a player like Michael Vick. Of course the people who try to pigeonhole him into a certain way that they think a QB should play are going to be critical. But, in my opinion, those people are close minded and have no interest in looking at Vick objectively for one reason or another.

if you want to use this argument VPI, and you want to evaluate Vick the player as a hybrid threat, then you can't evaluate him against JUST Brady. Because no one is arguing that other QB's have the mobility that Vick does. That's like having a race between an Olympic Sprinter and a guy in a wheelchair.

But give the guy in a wheelchair a rocket-pack that will propel him at equal speeds and then look at it.

Evaluate the offensive contributions of the ENTIRE backfield of both teams if you want to use Vick's running ability to offset his passing disability. Because sure Brady isn't as mobile, but that's why he has running backs. He shouldn't be penalizied for using them, or you might as well penalize Vick for not using his more.

[VPI97]

Umm, what isn't fact? I haven't seen anything I said disputed, only other excuses follow....

There is a reason why there is a perception of what a QB should be, because it works.
Opinion. Can't make a ruling on what type of QB works since the sample size is heavily weighted towards the traditional style.

He does alot of fancy plays, he scores some pretty TDs but he isn't winning.
Opinion. For this franchise he is winning.

He's not even a threat anymore, people have adjusted to him and he's just an after thought...
Opinion. That counters what most coaches and opposing players say about Vick.

That's what he's more pissy about than anything, because the attention isn't centered on him anymore despite the fact he's evolved zero as a passer, or a player.
Opinion. No explanation needed.

putting a running back at QB doesn't make you the team changing the way the game is played, it only makes you the team with a RB at QB.
Opinion. Reference the statement about sample size above.

[DaddyTorgo]

dola

comparing Vick's rushing+passing vs. Brady's passing+rushing is comparing apples to oranges.

[Deattribution]

My point was that the Pats of the past 5 years without Brady are head and shoulders above the Falcons without Vick in that time fram. Comparing team results from the two franchises is ridiculous.

Yes, clearly, I am the one basing things on opinion, and not fact....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Deattribution]

Opinion. Can't make a ruling on what type of QB works since the sample size is heavily weighted towards the traditional style.


Opinion. For this franchise he is winning.


Opinion. That counters what most coaches and opposing players say about Vick.


Opinion. No explanation needed.


Opinion. Reference the statement about sample size above.

Umm no, that would be your opinion on my facts. My statements have actual facts backing them (such as wins, playoff appearenes, performance and stats), yours just have your unending love for the falcons blinding them.

[flere-imsaho]

My point was that the Pats of the past 5 years without Brady are head and shoulders above the Falcons without Vick in that time fram. Comparing team results from the two franchises is ridiculous.

Really? Because this is what you said:

So 78% of his TD's came in five games? Well, 78% of Tom Brady's TD's came in seven games....don't see you railing on him now, do we?

Not exactly the same thing, is it?

You can compare Vick to Brady all you like, but I doubt it's ever going to be a favorable comparison from a results standpoint. Like it or not, QB is the most visible position for most teams in the NFL, and is arguably the position with the most influence on the outcome of games. Brady has consistently shown the ability to lead his team to wins despite supporting casts of questionable caliber (and frequent injury-depletion). Vick has, well, not.

As long as Vick & the Falcons continue to struggle, and Vick and Falcons' fans continue to proclaim him as the Second Coming, you're both in for some league-wide criticism and ridicule. I'd get used to it, if I were you.

[VPI97]

if you want to use this argument VPI, and you want to evaluate Vick the player as a hybrid threat, then you can't evaluate him against JUST Brady. Because no one is arguing that other QB's have the mobility that Vick does. That's like having a race between an Olympic Sprinter and a guy in a wheelchair.

But give the guy in a wheelchair a rocket-pack that will propel him at equal speeds and then look at it.

Evaluate the offensive contributions of the ENTIRE backfield of both teams if you want to use Vick's running ability to offset his passing disability. Because sure Brady isn't as mobile, but that's why he has running backs. He shouldn't be penalizied for using them, or you might as well penalize Vick for not using his more.

Agreed. Take note, that I was only using Brady as a point of comparision. FWIW, I would take Brady over any QB in the league (including Vick). I was only using him as a comparision point for the criticism of Vick. Based on the numbers that have been sited for rushing and passing, I feel that a case could be made that Vick does a great deal in trying to get his team a win...enough that it can be comparable to a top 5 passer in the NFL.

So the only reason Brady's name was brought up was just to try and show that despite similar yardage and yards per play numbers, you have still have a ton of people irrationally going overboard on Vick, while other QB's in the league don't nearly take as much abuse.

[VPI97]

Umm no, that would be your opinion on my facts.
Apparently, you do not know the definition of opinion (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion) and fact (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact).

[VPI97]

dola

comparing Vick's rushing+passing vs. Brady's passing+rushing is comparing apples to oranges.
Maybe...but I don't really think it's as stark a comparision when you break it down to yards per play.

[VPI97]

You can compare Vick to Brady all you like, but I doubt it's ever going to be a favorable comparison from a results standpoint.
FWIW, the only reason the comparision was made was to illustrate how Deattribution's post regarding TD distribution was a poor method of evaluation.

Brady has consistently shown the ability to lead his team to wins despite supporting casts of questionable caliber (and frequent injury-depletion). Vick has, well, not.
Sure Brady has...but your opinion on Vick's ability to do so is tainted by the fact that despite your claim of "questionable caliber", I don't think anyone could argue that the New England O-line is and has been tremendously better than what Atlanta puts out there on a weekly basis.

As long as Vick & the Falcons continue to struggle, and Vick and Falcons' fans continue to proclaim him as the Second Coming, you're both in for some league-wide criticism and ridicule. I'd get used to it, if I were you.
That's another thing I don't get. I've never seen anything where Michael claims to be the 'Second Coming'...and I'm pretty sure I've never posted anything like that. Where does that come from?

[flere-imsaho]

Based on the numbers that have been sited for rushing and passing, I feel that a case could be made that Vick does a great deal in trying to get his team a win...enough that it can be comparable to a top 5 passer in the NFL.

Here's my point: I don't think being a great QB and finding ways to get your team to win has a lot to do with statistics. I define being a great QB as someone who uses his toolset (whatever it is) to the best effect to win games and has significant intangibles that allow him to do so.

My opinion is that Vick generally doesn't do this. My opinion is that Vick and his fan club honestly believe that raw individual production numbers, and those alone, should equal wins, playoff spots, and Super Bowls.

[Deattribution]

Apparently, you do not know the definition of opinion (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion) and fact (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact).

This is utterly ridiculous, and beyond stupid now. I'm not even going to bother getting into your comprehension level for the simple fact that it's clear to anyone who's read this thread that every 'argument (look up excuse while youre at dictionary.com) you've stated, I've not only had numbers (again, wins, stats and performance to name a few), to dispute those, but also the endless amount of other excuses you have to follow those.

The only thing that wasn't fact and was opinion, was that I said him being the winningest QB in franchise history meant squat.

The stuff is out there, it's not hard to find in this thread either, I already have my opinion based on FACT, while you have your opinion, based well, on opinion.

I'm done. :)

[VPI97]

Here's my point: I don't think being a great QB and finding ways to get your team to win has a lot to do with statistics. I define being a great QB as someone who uses his toolset (whatever it is) to the best effect to win games and has significant intangibles that allow him to do so.
If that's truly your opinion, then I have no idea why you don't like Vick. You just stated the reason why his teammates and most Atlanta fans love him. Rather than argue, I really think you should either watch more Atlanta games or read the AJC online to see what his teammates say about him.

[VPI97]

Irrational rant
*shurg*

[flere-imsaho]

That's another thing I don't get. I've never seen anything where Michael claims to be the 'Second Coming'...and I'm pretty sure I've never posted anything like that. Where does that come from?

Q: What adjectives would you use to describe the way you play football?

A: Electrifying, innovative, nothing like you have ever seen.


Source. (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10152006/sports/serby_s_sunday_qa_with___michael_vick_sports_steve_serby.htm)

That's just from a cursory search. Don't tell me the Atlanta papers haven't annointed him several times at least in the past few years.

[VPI97]

Source. (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10152006/sports/serby_s_sunday_qa_with___michael_vick_sports_steve_serby.htm)
FWIW, I wouldn't equate that to him saying he's God's gift to football. I think that would be a reach.

Don't tell me the Atlanta papers haven't annointed him several times at least in the past few years.If so, it's rare.

In the Falcon fanbase, while the Vick-backers and the anti-Vicks fight over the value he brings to the team, both will agree that he's one of the more selfless players on the squad and he wants to do whatever it takes to get a win. Some just don't think he has the tools to make it happen. Anyway, you can take a few quotes or a few articles and spin it into an opinion that makes him out to be a stats-hungry jerk, but that's really laughable to me. By most indications, that's the reverse of how he really acts.

Edit - Another quote from the artcle you referenced:
Q: What would you want your football legacy to be?

A: That I gave it my best. That I was a great teammate. And that the Falcons won a lot of games and won a couple of Super Bowls.

[stevew]

I just thank god for Tommy Maddox, and the fact that he freed us from the evil clutches of Kordell. Someday you Falcons guys will have your saviour too.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

His big ass contract was the biggest waste of money in football history, almost.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Forget yards, attempts, TDs, picks, etc. Especially regular season stats. One thing matters as a starting QB --- wins. period. I mean I really don't care if some QB threw 4 TDs and 400 yards against Detroit in a regular season game.

Under that standard, Vick is an average QB. Not what the Falcons paid for.

This is why Brady is a star. And Peyton too. I don't care if Peyton throw 50 TDs. He's good because he's been winning 12-13 games a season. Lack of playoff wins hurts him though.

Now I know some will say well this team's defense sucks or this team's O-line sucks. But every team is like that to some extent. A stud QB rises above that and drags his sorry-ass defense or O-line to victory by the end of the game.

[AlexB]

Why not just let him run? Design an offense that is an NFL/college hybrid, allow him to use his legs as much as his arm, and see what happens?

Potential negative - Vick gets hurt through scrambling too much, versus Vick consistently hamstrings Falcons by not being able to be NFL style QB. No diffference.

Potential positive - NFL defences will not be used to facing this type of offence, leading to to...?

My point being at the moment, Falcons with Vick as traditional style QB are at best stagnant. Let him loose. The guy can run.

[ISiddiqui]

Gotta agree with Jari. At least try something different than the normal pro offense. They tried a bit this year, but Knapp is a West Coast offense guy and I don't think he can think that much outside of that box.

Oh, and for those comparing Vick to Kordell... you guys are absolutely crazy. Stewart didn't have nearly the same athletic ability that Vick has. Not even close.

[cuervo72]

Hate to butt into the lovefest here, but Brady vs Vick (as has been said) is not the best comparison.

However...SkyDog did bring up Randall Cunningham in another thread, and how he and his brothers talk about how Vick is hands-down better than Randall.

This is a better comparison...and at the same stage of their career, I don't think Vick has performed as well as Randall. Sixth year, Cunningham rushed for 942 yards, but also passed for 3400 (as he did the year before) improved his completion % to 58.3, and was 30/13 TD/INT. That team had NO running game. Keith Byars was the leading receiver (has been pointed out to me that Byars' rec could almost be considered the Eagles' running game in 1990). He did have Keith Jackson, and a couple of OK WR in Barnett and Calvin Williams. But they weren't world-beaters.

So in comparison to Randall, IMO Vick is trailing, even if most would probably say that Vick >> Cunningham. It's comparisons like that I'm not down with. I just don't see it yet, as dazzling as Vick is.

Also, I think that because of who he is (super-high profile, marketable 1.1) he might get more chances than other similar QB's (David Carr for instance, who is about to be dumped by a horrible Houston team despite having played not that badly). Not a bad thing in and of itself - teams bail on QB's and coaches too quickly IMO - but figured I'd mention it.

[stevew]

Oh, and for those comparing Vick to Kordell... you guys are absolutely crazy. Stewart didn't have nearly the same athletic ability that Vick has. Not even close.

Ah, yes, the "athletic ability" metric. I'll admit that Vick can be breathtaking, but Kordell was no slouch either.

[st.cronin]

Forget yards, attempts, TDs, picks, etc. Especially regular season stats. One thing matters as a starting QB --- wins. period. I mean I really don't care if some QB threw 4 TDs and 400 yards against Detroit in a regular season game.

Under that standard, Vick is an average QB. Not what the Falcons paid for.

Actually, by that standard, he's well above average. Not this year, no, but for his career he has been one of the top qbs in the league.

I don't think he's as good as Brady or Manning, but he doesn't have to be to be a good qb.

[JHandley]

Forget yards, attempts, TDs, picks, etc. Especially regular season stats. One thing matters as a starting QB --- wins. period. I mean I really don't care if some QB threw 4 TDs and 400 yards against Detroit in a regular season game.

Under that standard, Vick is an average QB. Not what the Falcons paid for.



This is mind-boggling to me.

Under this standard, you are completely negating the other 52 players and the coaching staff. Under this standard, Archie Manning is one of the worst QB's in the history of the league. He never had a winning season.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but this is just a ridiculous metric to put on one player on a team.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

That's fine. You don't have to agree with me. Obviously there are some exceptions for QBs playing on COMPLETELY crappy teams. I think that's common sense. But for the majority of teams with varying strengths and weakness, this metric as far as I'm concerned is all that matters. Atlanta fits that bill.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Actually, by that standard, he's well above average. Not this year, no, but for his career he has been one of the top qbs in the league.

I don't think he's as good as Brady or Manning, but he doesn't have to be to be a good qb.

Yes, you are correct. I was only talking about this year. Overall, he has been better than average.

[GrantDawg]

Back to the original point of this thread, a name has surfaced on the perimeter that caught my fancy...Mike Singletary.

[Deattribution]

Arthur Blank must have been a huge 49ers' fan because he apparently has a hardon for their assistants. Too bad they aren't nowhere near as good as they use to be.

Singletary might be good eventually, but I'm not sure he has enough experience coaching to anything other than a disaster right now. He's never even been a coordinator.

[ISiddiqui]

Apparently Lou Holtz today was making noises about Mora to the Alabama job. I don't know why Alabama would have him, but it could be a win-win for all parties if they want him.

[st.cronin]

Apparently Lou Holtz today was making noises about Mora to the Alabama job. I don't know why Alabama would have him, but it could be a win-win for all parties if they want him.

By "all parties" you mean the rest of the SEC, right?

[ISiddiqui]

Well if Alabama actually somehow wants him, then I'm sure they'd be happy if they got him. Alabama fans, on the other hand, probably wouldn't be happy... but they ain't a party to that.

[KWhit]

I say get rid of both Vick and Mora.

[stevew]

I hear that the Falcons like the Steelers OC, Ken Whisenut(sp). I think he will make a good head coach, but I would hate for him to get in a situation with a coach killing QB :). Whiz will sometimes get creative, so he may actually be the type of HC that can use Vick to the best of his abilities. We'll see.....I'm just glad Whiz didn't take the raiders job last year.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

I've heard that the Whiz was taking over for the Chin next year. That's why he didn't take the Raiders gig (or so it's been claimed).

[Buccaneer]

Vick should stop patting himself on the back long enough to recall two games he/they should have won, against lowly Cleveland and Detroit. But those were probably counterbalanced by the wins against Pitt and Cincy.

My wish is for Atl to trade Vick to the Raiders for the 1.2 pick so we and everyone else in the world can stop talking about him just like what happened to Moss. And probably throw in a new coach too, eh?

[RedKingGold]

I like the idea of Whisenhunt with the Falcons. I think (as stated earlier) that he would be able to get the most out of Vick.

Plus, I always thought that Steeler Offensive Line/Assistant Head Coach Russ Grimm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Grimm) would be the guy to take over for Cowher after the season.

[Tekneek]

I remember watching Ken Whisenhunt play at Georgia Tech. He was my favorite player back then.

You guys think Blank will try to break in yet another brand new head coach? I don't see that. I don't think he will fire Mora until he knows he can upgrade and to me that means bringing in somebody that is proven. They do need a real OC, though...

[stevew]

Steelers are going to hire Kirk Farentz from Iowa. That's my darkhorse pick for our coach next year, if Cowher isn't back.

[GrantDawg]

By "all parties" you mean the rest of the SEC, right?


You know, I think Mora might be a good college coach. If he was smart enough to get assistants that instilled discipline (because he won't), he would do well. He would be a good recruiter, and run a clean program.

[st.cronin]

Steelers are going to hire Kirk Farentz from Iowa. That's my darkhorse pick for our coach next year, if Cowher isn't back.

He would be a disaster in the NFL. The guy has no clue how to win a close game, and in the NFL, all games are close.

[Logan]

Steelers are going to hire Kirk Farentz from Iowa. That's my darkhorse pick for our coach next year, if Cowher isn't back.

He would be a disaster in the NFL. The guy has no clue how to win a close game, and in the NFL, all games are close.

Is Ferentz the one who called the moronic WR reverse pass that lost Iowa all their good field position and eventually cost them the game yesterday?