What do we assume about FOF 2k7?

[Raiders Army]

Is it just me or do we assume we know things about FOF 2k7 that are carried over from 2k4? For example, check out the following threads:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=55277
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=55236
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=55133
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=55239

To those who have played 2k4 extensively, are you assuming that what you knew in 2k4 is the same as 2k7?

[Raiders Army]

*crickets*

Okay...obviously a non-issue then. My bad for even bringing this up.

[PSUColonel]

good questions actually. I have always wondered why it is Jim would not clue us in on what I would consider to be very important aspects of FOF. I just don't understand why it needs to be a secret, or a mystery?

[GMO]

I think these are the most important ratings for these positions:

QB - Intelligence
WR - Route-Running
RB - Breakaway speed

[wade moore]

good questions actually. I have always wondered why it is Jim would not clue us in on what I would consider to be very important aspects of FOF. I just don't understand why it needs to be a secret, or a mystery?

I will say for the umpteenth time that I don't understand why people want every little detail of how the ratings effect play. To me what's the point of the game at that stage?

[RedKingGold]

good questions actually. I have always wondered why it is Jim would not clue us in on what I would consider to be very important aspects of FOF. I just don't understand why it needs to be a secret, or a mystery?

I think if you read the help file through, you would find some interesting observations. Also, the help file in the roster/draft file editor has some interesting tidbits about what the actual ratings do in game.

As far as other things not fully elaborated on in the game (ex: Red Flag, combine numbers = rating relation, etc); in "real" football, these things are not quantifiable or easy to see as well.

For example, the "Red Flag" player. Most of us assume in FOF2K7 that he has a detrimental effect on a team, but we do not know exactly how much. Now parallel that to Terrell Owens in "real" football. We all think that TO has a negative effect on the Cowboys, yet the team is still 10-4 and likely headed to the playoffs.

Personally, I like the approach. If we knew everything about the game, the keys to winning would be find a formula, rinse and repeat. Instead, there is enough flexibility to the game that people find new things out years after they started playing. And, if you don't think thats realistic; just remember that twenty-five years ago, there was no such thing as the Cover-2 defense or West Coast offense in the "real" NFL.

[RedKingGold]

I will say for the umpteenth time that I don't understand why people want every little detail of how the ratings effect play. To me what's the point of the game at that stage?

Or, what he said.

;)

[PSUColonel]

I will say for the umpteenth time that I don't understand why people want every little detail of how the ratings effect play. To me what's the point of the game at that stage?


I wouldn't want every little detail, but more explaination on how certain aspects of the game work, like red flags, leaderhisp, personality, intelligence and leadership. How do these all work together?

[wade moore]

I wouldn't want every little detail, but more explaination on how certain aspects of the game work, like red flags, leaderhisp, personality, intelligence and leadership. How do these all work together?

Just a difference of opinion. I dont' want to know how these work together, to me that's part of what makes it a game and not a formula.

There are things that I would like Solecismic to explain better at times (for instance who covers who in certain coverage schemes), but explaining how certain ratings interact I just don't think should be spelled out. It takes the game out of the formula imo.

[Leonidas]

Compared to Football Manager Jim tells us a whole lot. I have no complaints. It's called fog of war and is what makes this game so compelling.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

The problem with this viewpoint is that in real life, you can observe not only the final result but what leads up to the final result. In FOF, it all happens under the hood and you see only the final result. Thus, it makes it impossible to draw any conclusions for some stuff. When this is the case, it becomes pointless to care about some added features/ratings because you have no idea what the the effect is. This lessens the enjoyment of the game.

I don't think anyone wants a detailed explanation about everything but there is a need for better documentation. With that said, Jim has done a a better job of it in FOF2k7.

For example, his documenation for red flags/mentors is fine. His prior documentation in FOF2k4 about passing coverages (or non-documentation I should say) was not good.

[PSUColonel]

As discussed previously, in a game like FM, you can see the effects of a player who is a "red flag". He'll start brawls on the field, he'll speak out in the media against coaches and teamates, or he'll be dispruptive in the clubhouse. These are all indications of what a player is doing to a team. (especially if other players don't like him, and the team is playing poorly) In FOF, well we all know we aren't ecxactly getting that kind of feedback.

[Ajaxab]

I have to agree with PSUColonel here. There are aspects of this version that seem difficult to manage given the information available (in game and via the help file) that the game's fog of war makes it hard to know whether one is even in a battle at times.

[Galaril]

I agree with what PSU Colonel is saying. I don't care about how the rating break down in the game engine like some text sim developers tell us TMI. But, there are a lot of aspects to FOF that are just way to blurry in explanation and/or understanding. I never understood why we have to guess what is fixed in patches or why other customers have to be the ones to answer questions as to what something does. This was my complaint with the last FOF and it is why I probaly won't buy anymore of the FOF gamesin the future. I know Jim is one guy, but there are plenty of other one man developers that give afar better understanding of there games whether it be through a game manual, "regular" on board discussion participation and oh yeah readme's for patches. FOF has the most ardent and loyal fanbase and so I am not going to continue in this vain knowing as in the past someone will say how "Jim is always answering questions on the board or interacting with the user base. BTW, This is not a personal attack against Jim, he seems like a good guy it's just my opinion.

[RedKingGold]

It really seems like the majority of you want to have your cake and eat it too.

I like cake, and will make it last until I understand everything about it before I devour it.

:)

[Raiders Army]

Hmmmm....maybe I wasn't clear on the topic of the thread. While I agree with what was previously said (both sides), my point was that I think we're assuming some things from 2k4 are the same in 2k7. For example, I don't think Blocking Strength was essential in 2k4. You needed Pass Blocking and Run Blocking skills to have a successful lineman. I think that 2k7 has been tweaked so that Blocking Strength is more important.

What's interesting to me is that there are a lot of people who are assuming that what we knew about 2k4 is exactly the same in 2k7. I think the majority of what we know is the same but there are some tweaks that happened when 2k7 was released.

[RedKingGold]

Hmmmm....maybe I wasn't clear on the topic of the thread. While I agree with what was previously said (both sides), my point was that I think we're assuming some things from 2k4 are the same in 2k7. For example, I don't think Blocking Strength was essential in 2k4. You needed Pass Blocking and Run Blocking skills to have a successful lineman. I think that 2k7 has been tweaked so that Blocking Strength is more important.

What's interesting to me is that there are a lot of people who are assuming that what we knew about 2k4 is exactly the same in 2k7. I think the majority of what we know is the same but there are some tweaks that happened when 2k7 was released.

While blocking strength was not essential in 2k4, I think it gave you a good indicator on whether the player developed or not. Blocking strength is one of those random ratings which the game generates each time you make a draft file (whereas pass/run technique are roughly the same each time w/o x-factor). So, I have personally found that players with high blocking strength numbers (and other ratings for other positions) have a better chance to develop than those w/ low blocking strength.

[Galaril]

While blocking strength was not essential in 2k4, I think it gave you a good indicator on whether the player developed or not. Blocking strength is one of those random ratings which the game generates each time you make a draft file (whereas pass/run technique are roughly the same each time w/o x-factor). So, I have personally found that players with high blocking strength numbers (and other ratings for other positions) have a better chance to develop than those w/ low blocking strength.

You knows this because..............? Help file? Intuition? Jim?

[KWhit]

I wouldn't want every little detail, but more explaination on how certain aspects of the game work, like red flags, leaderhisp, personality, intelligence and leadership. How do these all work together?

How do those work together on the real football field? Nobody knows. In the NFL, we think that "red flag" players like TO are a distraction and might lead to a slight decrease in a team's overall performance on the field due to lockerroom disharmony, but nobody knows that for sure.

Embrace the ambiguity.

[PSUColonel]

How do those work together on the real football field? Nobody knows. In the NFL, we think that "red flag" players like TO are a distraction and might lead to a slight decrease in a team's overall performance on the field due to lockerroom disharmony, but nobody knows that for sure.

Embrace the ambiguity.

slight??? He destroyed the Eagles. ;)

[Raiders Army]

While blocking strength was not essential in 2k4, I think it gave you a good indicator on whether the player developed or not. Blocking strength is one of those random ratings which the game generates each time you make a draft file (whereas pass/run technique are roughly the same each time w/o x-factor). So, I have personally found that players with high blocking strength numbers (and other ratings for other positions) have a better chance to develop than those w/ low blocking strength.
Gotcha. Do you think that's the same in 2k7?
You knows this because..............? Help file? Intuition? Jim?
I believe he says it's based on anecdotal evidence from 2k4.

[Bonegavel]

I think the funny part about this is that I don't even think that FOF2007 stuff works the way I think it should. :)

The whole underrated vs overrated has me all buggered.

[Galaril]

Gotcha. Do you think that's the same in 2k7?

I believe he says it's based on anecdotal evidence from 2k4.

This is a prime example of what I am talking about. I guess it is fun to talk and discuss this but after a while it is, at least for me kind like I don't have all day to discuss about what some feature does in FOF. It all seems to be conjecture albeit educated conjecture.

[RedKingGold]

Gotcha. Do you think that's the same in 2k7?

I believe he says it's based on anecdotal evidence from 2k4.

Yes and yes (at least in some cases). Until I find different, I'm using the majority of strategies that I found worked in 2004 in 2007. Not saying they're greatly successful (I only have one MP playoff performance to show for it), but I'm not going to abandon them until I see enough evidence that they fail. For example, some ideas about the draft (combine studs, looking for players with at least some grey, etc.) have carried over from FOF2K4 to FOF2K7.

This is a prime example of what I am talking about. I guess it is fun to talk and discuss this but after a while it is, at least for me kind like I don't have all day to discuss about what some feature does in FOF. It all seems to be conjecture albeit educated conjecture.

You would be surprised how much of the work is already done for you by such great studies found in the strategy forum. I'm not shy to admit that the majority of my theories about players in the draft have been derived directly from SkyDog's studies from FOF2K4.

As KWhit and others have said in this forum, I believe that pretty much all of the things that would be obvious to see are given to us in the help file in some way, shape or form. Some of the other things, (red flag, what do combine numbers mean, how do I fix my cohesion) are not black and white, but neither are these things in the NFL. If they were, then every team in the NFL would be 15-1.

In short, I'm thinking you and Matt Millen might have an awful lot in common. ;)

[Warhammer]

This is a prime example of what I am talking about. I guess it is fun to talk and discuss this but after a while it is, at least for me kind like I don't have all day to discuss about what some feature does in FOF. It all seems to be conjecture albeit educated conjecture.

The problem is this issue is a feel thing. It is not a given that all high strength Linemen are going to develop. It's not a given that they won't. This is something where actual play comes into play.

Additionally, if it was in the documentation that a player like this would develop and the guy didn't people would complain about that.

My issue is that the documentation should be there for hard coded things. What does each bar actually mean? The 2k4 definition of Getting Downfield is a good example, many people thought it was the ability of the WR to get off the line, etc. There have been greatly improved coverages added to the game which I love, but there is some stuff that is lacking. For example, for a LB in a Zone 2 BnR scheme should he be good at zone or BnR defense to be effective?

[Galaril]

Yes and yes (at least in some cases). Until I find different, I'm using the majority of strategies that I found worked in 2004 in 2007. Not saying they're greatly successful (I only have one MP playoff performance to show for it), but I'm not going to abandon them until I see enough evidence that they fail. For example, some ideas about the draft (combine studs, looking for players with at least some grey, etc.) have carried over from FOF2K4 to FOF2K7.



You would be surprised how much of the work is already done for you by such great studies found in the strategy forum. I'm not shy to admit that the majority of my theories about players in the draft have been derived directly from SkyDog's studies from FOF2K4.

As KWhit and others have said in this forum, I believe that pretty much all of the things that would be obvious to see are given to us in the help file in some way, shape or form. Some of the other things, (red flag, what do combine numbers mean, how do I fix my cohesion) are not black and white, but neither are these things in the NFL. If they were, then every team in the NFL would be 15-1.

In short, I'm thinking you and Matt Millen might have an awful lot in common. ;)

The problem is this issue is a feel thing. It is not a given that all high strength Linemen are going to develop. It's not a given that they won't. This is something where actual play comes into play.

Additionally, if it was in the documentation that a player like this would develop and the guy didn't people would complain about that.

My issue is that the documentation should be there for hard coded things. What does each bar actually mean? The 2k4 definition of Getting Downfield is a good example, many people thought it was the ability of the WR to get off the line, etc. There have been greatly improved coverages added to the game which I love, but there is some stuff that is lacking. For example, for a LB in a Zone 2 BnR scheme should he be good at zone or BnR defense to be effective?


RedKingGold,

Thnaks the matt millen comment was too good.lol.:D

And after think about what you said I kind of agree and mor eunderstand you guys side of this. I should try to appreciate that this really is a lot like the real NFL in it's unpredictableness.

WarHammer,

I agree with you I am really most concerned with having some of the " hardcoded things spelt out" like what does a mentor mean. I know alot of it is spelled out in the help file as well as the great studies done by SkyDog.

[EagleFan]

Now parallel that to Terrell Owens in "real" football. We all think that TO has a negative effect on the Cowboys, yet the team is still 10-4 and likely headed to the playoffs.


He was so much of a detriment to the team that they somehow went from 10-4 to finishing 9-7. They took a win away from them at some point. ;)

[GMO]

RedKingGold,

Thnaks the matt millen comment was too good.lol.:D

And after think about what you said I kind of agree and mor eunderstand you guys side of this. I should try to appreciate that this really is a lot like the real NFL in it's unpredictableness.

WarHammer,

I agree with you I am really most concerned with having some of the " hardcoded things spelt out" like what does a mentor mean. I know alot of it is spelled out in the help file as well as the great studies done by SkyDog.


Where can I find the studies done by Skydog?

Thanks.

[Joker]

I'd like someone to do a study on combine numbers so I can compare my data.