Another NBA on court brawl [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

Deattribution

12-16-2006, 09:50 PM

Nuggets-Knicks brawl ends with 10 players ejected
Associated Press

NEW YORK -- Ten players, including NBA scoring leader Carmelo Anthony, were ejected for fighting during a wild brawl near the end of Saturday night's game between the Denver Nuggets and New York Knicks.

All 10 players on the court at the time were tossed for their involvement in the ugly incident that spread across the court and spilled into the crowd at Madison Square Garden.

Anthony scored 34 points before the melee took place with about 1:15 left in the Nuggets' 123-100 victory over the Knicks.

The fight started after Knicks reserve Mardy Collins flagrantly fouled Denver's J.R. Smith. With punches being thrown by several players, the hitting and grabbing continued for several minutes before coaches and security ran onto the court and finally restored order.

Anthony was involved in a fight with the Knicks' Nate Robinson, who jumped into to jaw at Smith after the foul. Both Smith and Robinson ended up flying into the stands in the NBA's ugliest scene since the brawl between Pacers players and Detroit fans in 2004.

With each team forced to put five new players on the floor, Denver finished up the win and ended a two-game losing streak. Marcus Camby had 24 points and nine rebounds, and Andre Miller added 12 points and 10 assists for the Nuggets.

Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press

There's also a video on the ESPN site... I always thought MLB players were the biggest overpaid babies, but NBA players by far take the cake.

wade moore

12-16-2006, 09:56 PM

Deattribution

12-16-2006, 10:01 PM

I just watched the video on ESPN.com...

Is it just me or is this not THAT bad...

It certainly doesn't compare to the brawl at the palace. There were no non-NBA people involved. They say it "spilled into the crowd" but the only thing I saw was spilling into the camera-men, etc.

Yeah, Melo and some others probably deserve a suspension, but I think it's a bit much to compare this to the Brawl at the Palace from what I saw.

I don't think it is that comparable other than them saying it's the worse they've seen since but all it would have taken was something to be thrown on court and the place could have erupted. Fortunately nobody was that stupid or intolerable.

kingfc22

12-16-2006, 10:01 PM

Melo's a little bitch. Love how he throws a sucker punch then runs backwards to mid-court.

Deattribution

12-16-2006, 10:03 PM

Yeah I thought that was funny for mr 'I got Street Cred'. :rolleyes:

dime

12-16-2006, 10:24 PM

in the 80s, white guys were at least involved in the fights...sometimes starting them with each other! (mchale/rambis)

these days they're peacemakers at best, and I bet david stern wishes they were more involved because it'd at least play better on TV if it wasn't a completely "black" fight. perhaps he needs to institute some secret incentives or something.

stevew

12-16-2006, 11:20 PM

Carmelo Anthony says "stop snitching."

What a little bitch.

M GO BLUE!!!

12-16-2006, 11:34 PM

YES!!!

Finally. It's about time us Knicks fans had something to talk about other than how bad the team sucks because of Isiah.

Deattribution

12-16-2006, 11:37 PM

YES!!!

Finally. It's about time us Knicks fans had something to talk about other than how bad the team sucks because of Isiah.

Now you can talk about how bad they suck at wussy fighting ;)

WVUFAN

12-16-2006, 11:41 PM

A bunch of thugs (which is pretty much all the NBA is nowadays) got into another brawl.

Whatta a surprise. :rolleyes:

heybrad

12-16-2006, 11:43 PM

So is Melo's new nickname Hit and Run?

Crim

12-16-2006, 11:48 PM

Hey Brad.

stevew

12-16-2006, 11:51 PM

I hope they suspend Carmelo for at least 20 games.

JeffNights

12-16-2006, 11:58 PM

Carmelo is a fat immature bitch.

bulletsponge

12-17-2006, 12:00 AM

So is Melo's new nickname Hit and Run?

suckerpunch and run

Anthony

12-17-2006, 12:06 AM

i bet the thinking in the Knicks lockerroom and in IT's office is "great, at least now the fans will think we have heart and play with passion". but no, guys, the team sucks and is an embarassment to the city.

Leonidas

12-17-2006, 01:48 AM

Dutch

12-17-2006, 06:38 AM

The NBA should fight every night instead of whatever it is they do. I haven't paid this much attention to the NBA since the last brawl.

CU Tiger

12-17-2006, 08:21 AM

I read an article that quoted Robinson as saying he didn't understand the reaction to what was a good, clean, hard foul. OK Nate, there was nothing good or clean about the foul. It was a BS, late game, I'm pissed off for losing so I'm going to whack the next guy who drives the basket foul. The kind of foul the NBA has tolerated for far too long.

I really dont care one way or another, but...
Did you watch the whole game?
Not that I condone the the brawl or even the foul, but when you are up by 20 an you stil have your starters on the court with 1:15 you know what you are doing.
George Karl was sending a message mainly because he and Larry Brown are close friends.
The orevious possesion on a breakaway he did a bit of showboating (which leading by 20 is as poor sportsman ship as the hard foul IMO)

After watching this a few times, it looks like immediately following the foul he try to catch the Nuggett to keep him from falling, but is unsuccessful.

Not saying it justifies anything, but I dont think the nuggets are blameless here either.
Really George Karl cost his team. Had Mello not been on the court he would never be looking at the suspension he is getting ready to get (and should get, I would kick him out of the NBA. until he grew a set of nuts personally) but what if he had been injured. Explain to your owner well our season is over, because our star was injured while we ran up the score on the guy who fired my friend...

I really think the only fair and reasonable course of action is to shut down the entire NBA.

TroyF

12-17-2006, 08:27 AM

You can't see it on the video, but Melo is getting choked before he throws the slap.

http://images.sportsline.com/u/photos/basketball/nba/img9875483.jpg

That snapshot was seconds before he threw the slap. He realized he shouldn't have thrown it and ran back to avoid further suspension, but he was not the instigator of the situation by any means.

To that point Melo had not done anything except push Collins away from JR.

What's amazing to me about the coverage is how much crap the Nuggets are getting here without any facts to backup what happened.

Collins tackles JR Smith and Robinson gets into Smith's face and escalates things. JR didn't do a thing at any point in the game to warrant that. In fact, he was tackled earlier in the game as well, with no flagrant being called. Same type of play, up around the neck and thrown to the floor.

Melo went in to get Collins and Robinson off of JR and the Knicks went after Melo. As things "looked" to be dying down on video, the stills show Melo was being choked with two Nuggets trying to get the guy away from Melo. He throw a punch at that point, gets away and moves back down the court.

Melo deserves 10 or 15 games. He shouldn't have throw the punch. But the Knicks deserve just as much, for starting it, for escalating it and for ordering it.

TroyF

12-17-2006, 08:34 AM

CU,

I did watch the entire game. The Nuggets subs were up at about the 2 minute mark and never had a chance to get into the game. Should Karl have had the starters pulled earliers? Hell yes. And in a chat room during the game I made the point he should have before the brawl ever started. They shouldn't have been in the game.

But I also saw JR get tackled in much the same fashion earlier in the game and it didn't look to me that Collins was trying to help JR at all. It looked like one of the worst fouls I've seen in the NBA in years. The only intent Collins had was to injure JR Smith. And Robinson jumping in right after the play, as JR was just getting up from being decked, shows what the Knicks were trying to do.

I also watched the Knicks/Nuggets game in Denver a month ago. A game the Knicks won and taunted the Nuggets as they were going off of the court. The Nuggets players had talked about that before the game last night and I'm sure that was more of the "message" they were trying to send than GK being friends with Larry Brown.

If Melo gets more than 10-15, the league is a disgrace.

Logan

12-17-2006, 08:35 AM

He realized he shouldn't have thrown it and ran back to avoid further suspension

Easily the dumbest thing I've ever read on this board.

He ran back because he's a little bitch, just like 99% of the NBA. He threw a punch, when everything had already died down, and ran away so he wouldn't have to deal with the consequences.

TroyF

12-17-2006, 08:44 AM

Easily the dumbest thing I've ever read on this board.

He ran back because he's a little bitch, just like 99% of the NBA. He threw a punch, when everything had already died down, and ran away so he wouldn't have to deal with the consequences.

I've watched Melo for the four years he's been in Denver. During that time, he's been elbowed in the face once, hard fouled to many times to count, had at least five guys get in his face on different occasions and comitted a "flagrent" on Manu Ginobili in a playoff game that got him ejected. (I put flagrant in quotes because Manu even said the foul wasn't that bad and he didn't think there was a reason Melo should be ejected)

Not once during that time has he ever thrown a punch. He threw one this time with multiple Knicks around him, while getting choked, to get the hell away. If he was such a little bitch, why'd he ever get involved in the first place? He was the first Nugget outside of JR to get involved. He pushed Collins away from JR and then tried to do the same with Robinson. If he was so scared of getting involved or hit, why did he put himself in the situation? And if he was so violent that he only thinks with his fists, why didn't he come into the fray swinging?

It's clear to me Meo took the swing, instantly regretted it and backed off. I don't think for a second a kid from the inner city streets of Baltimore is scared of Jerrod Jeffries. I guess YMMV.

stevew

12-17-2006, 09:02 AM

Easily the dumbest thing I've ever read on this board.

He ran back because he's a little bitch, just like 99% of the NBA. He threw a punch, when everything had already died down, and ran away so he wouldn't have to deal with the consequences.

Quoted for Truth.

George Karl was being a goon by having the starters out there in the first place. Now it will be fun to see that dickhead have to cope without his starters for a few games. And hopefully without his "superstar" for at least 20.

dime

12-17-2006, 09:07 AM

reading this thread reminded me that the board is called "front office football" and not "I've seen more than ten NBA games in my lifetime"

here is a great column breaking down the sillyness of the brawl (but not the predictable overreaction to it)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-brawl121706&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

wade moore

12-17-2006, 09:11 AM

I hope they suspend Carmelo for at least 20 games.

Really?

REALLY?

What is the precedent for that?

Oilers9911

12-17-2006, 09:18 AM

Everybody involved should be heavily suspended. The brawl itself wasn't that over the top but any time you have a fight and two men go flying into the crowd there is a chance that a paying customer could get hurt. Imagine you have those seats with your kids and these two thugs come flying on top of your kid and injure him or her. That's why the suspensions should be heavy.

stevew

12-17-2006, 09:20 AM

Really?

REALLY?

What is the precedent for that?

There was no precedent for suspending all those Pacers guys for 20+ games either. But blatent thug like behavior from one of the leagues supposed "superstars" should result in a harsh punishment.

Look at how authoritarian Stern has gotten lately, at least a 10 game suspension is certainly within the realm of possibility.

All these thug assholes need to sit down if they are going to give the league a bad image. I enjoy the NBA no matter what, but for a marketing standpoint and for the overall health of the league, this type of stuff needs to stop. And it needs to be dealt with severely.

stevew

12-17-2006, 09:30 AM

TroyF

12-17-2006, 09:40 AM

There was no precedent for suspending all those Pacers guys for 20+ games either. But blatent thug like behavior from one of the leagues supposed "superstars" should result in a harsh punishment.

Look at how authoritarian Stern has gotten lately, at least a 10 game suspension is certainly within the realm of possibility.

All these thug assholes need to sit down if they are going to give the league a bad image. I enjoy the NBA no matter what, but for a marketing standpoint and for the overall health of the league, this type of stuff needs to stop. And it needs to be dealt with severely.

I'll agree with that and I think what should be dealt with most severely is the assholes who start it all. I watched Stern torpedo the Pacers season when it was Ben Wallace who was the one who escalated the entire incident, threw a towel at Artest (that came just a few seconds before the cup) and acted like a five year old who had his Barney videos taken away.

Hell, the way that went down, if I'm an NBA player, I don't worry about starting something. Hell, do something to rile up the other team, escalate it as far as I can and then when things get out of control I'll watch the commish destroy their season. Seems perfect to me.

I have no doubt Stern will come down harshly on Melo. I also have no doubt most of the brain dead idiots calling Melo a sissy and a thug have no clue as to what they are talking about. While the incident was "dying down" Melo was in the midst of a choke hold with his arms at his side that two other Nugget players couldn't get him out of.

Melo shouldn't have thrown the punch. It was brain dead. Idiotic. Mornic. Stupid. Pick whatever term you want to use. But my guess is about 8 out of 10 of us would have thrown something in that situation. Maybe 10 of 10. Your instinct is to attack back. He gave into it, realized it was stupid right away and backed off. The guy choking him (jeffries I believe) will probably get four or five times less punishment, because choking someone is more acceptable than throwing a punch.

Something is really wrong with that line of thinking.

heybrad

12-17-2006, 09:52 AM

I'd be right there with you Troy if Melo punched him to get him off of him. But the reality is they were separated and order was getting restored and Melo came back around and retaliated. That's what looks really bad.

Either way, both teams are idiotic with Isiah Thomas being the King idiot of the night. His comments afterwards were just assinine.

The irony to me is that it won't be long, and I'm talking a game or two, before somebody is lighting up a team and the announcers tell us that... "Somebody needs to put that guy on his ass!" Happens all the time.

CU Tiger

12-17-2006, 10:12 AM

But my guess is about 8 out of 10 of us would have thrown something in that situation. Maybe 10 of 10. Your instinct is to attack back.

I do not dispute this fact.
I KNOW I would have thrown that punch, butI owuld have followed it with another or a tackle or something, I wouldnt have ran across the court like a little bitch.

I like Melo, but that was punk. He knew it.

I also think you are exaggerating a bit on the choke...
He was being held around his neck collarbone but he was not being choked, there is a difference.

I honestly think you are too close to be unbiased.

The one thing I think is funny, is how the pro Melo anti LeBron crowd tried to paint LeBron into a whinytheir rookie thug during both seasons, and it appears (at least from a casual observer POV) they have it exactly backwards.
Oh well, again I vote - Disband the NBA

wade moore

12-17-2006, 10:30 AM

Oilers9911

12-17-2006, 10:46 AM

I'll agree with that and I think what should be dealt with most severely is the assholes who start it all. I watched Stern torpedo the Pacers season when it was Ben Wallace who was the one who escalated the entire incident, threw a towel at Artest (that came just a few seconds before the cup) and acted like a five year old who had his Barney videos taken away.

Artest and Jackson torpedoed the Pacers season by acting like common thugs and going into the crowd. Yes the drink thrower was an idiot and yes Ben Wallace acted childish but going into the crowd and beating up a fan (the wrong one if i'm not mistaken) was what should have been dealt with harshly and was. Look at it this way, I walk up to you on the street and put a Kick Me sign on your back. You freak out and club me with a bat. Was what I did stupid? Sure. But what you did was worse and deserves the harshest punishment.

Deattribution

12-17-2006, 11:03 AM

Easily the dumbest thing I've ever read on this board.

He ran back because he's a little bitch, just like 99% of the NBA. He threw a punch, when everything had already died down, and ran away so he wouldn't have to deal with the consequences.

Agreed. Nothing wrong with being a fan of Mel, but to try to say 'he threw a punch then decided he didn't want to be involved' is ridiculously stupid on levels beyond anything I've read here. He wanted to get a cheap shop and run away, that's it.

Logan

12-17-2006, 11:21 AM

Blah, blah, defend Carmelo, blah...

Whatever man. Keep on thinking how much of a warrior your boy is, how he was being choked within an inch of his life, and how he was smart to "back away" (not run, of course). The rest of us will be over here in reality where we don't view things through powder-blue glasses.

TheOhioStateUniversity

12-17-2006, 11:31 AM

I'm laughing at the liberal use of the term "thug"....

John Galt

12-17-2006, 11:32 AM

I'm not familiar with this Kermit Washington incident - but sounds like it involves a coach, which to me is going to be a different story to.

No, this was way back when Rudy T. was a player. It was just a brutal punch and totally screwed him up. I'm sure it is on youtube or something - you should look at it if you are curious at all about NBA history.

Maple Leafs

12-17-2006, 11:41 AM

I miss hockey brawls.

None of this throw one punch and run a girl stuff.

Weak sauce, NBA.

miami_fan

12-17-2006, 11:45 AM

I don't expect the punishments to be anywhere close to the ones handed out for the Palace brawl nor should they be. The suspension I am going to look closely at is the one given to Collins. David Stern has made the elimination of "excessive physical play" a priority over the last couple of years. With the suspensions doled out during last year's playoffs for cheap shots/perceived cheap shots, I want to see how heavy he comes down on this one.

My guess on the penalties are

Anthony-10 to 12 games

Robinson, Collins and Smith- 8 games though I think Collins probably deserves more since without his cheap shot, there is no brawl.

Jeffries-5 games

Frye, Lee, Miller, Najera, and Camby all will get a game though I have seen any reason to suspend them at this point. I know the smart move for them would have been to move away from the fray, but they all seem to be trying to break things up.

miami_fan

12-17-2006, 11:48 AM

I'm laughing at the liberal use of the term "thug"....

One entry found for thug.

Main Entry: thug
Pronunciation: 'th&g
Function: noun
Etymology: Hindi & Urdu thag, literally, thief
: a brutal ruffian or assassin : GANGSTER, TOUGH

VPI97

12-17-2006, 12:16 PM

For precedent's sake, they gave Kermit Washington 26 games for a sucker punch to the face of Rudy Tomjanovich a generation ago. Granted, that was a bit more brutal than the one Carmela did. But they have certainly suspended people quite a bit in the past.
The Kermit Washington - Rudy T punch was the first thing I thought of when I saw the clip of Carmelo. I wouldn't be shocked if they let him off lightly (it is the NBA, after all), but I think he should get 20-25 games off for sucker punching a guy. Classless move by the guy.

DeToxRox

12-17-2006, 12:32 PM

I miss hockey brawls.

None of this throw one punch and run a girl stuff.

Weak sauce, NBA.

Quoted for truth.

Karlifornia

12-17-2006, 04:30 PM

Logan

12-17-2006, 04:36 PM

I met Tie Domi when the Leafs were staying at the same hotel in Philly that I was at for a conference in March. He was a nice guy and very approachable.

I would never, ever approach Ron Artest in public. The guy is completely insane.

TheOhioStateUniversity

12-17-2006, 05:41 PM

In interviews I have never gotten the feeling Ron Artest is insane, a little different...yes, but insane no. As far as approaching him I really couldn't make that call until I sensed the vibe he gave off in whatever situation I encountered him. Logan knows Ron Artest personally though.

Oilers9911

12-17-2006, 05:50 PM

Why do NBA players get called thugs, but NHL players are lauded?

Yeah, Artest went to fight with fans....what about Tie Domi pulling that dude into the penalty box?

Just seems like a double standard.

I'm the last guy to defend Tie Dummy but in this case he didn't pull the guy into the penalty boxy, the guy was lunging at him and the glass gave way and the guy basically tumbled in with Domi.

molson

12-17-2006, 05:50 PM

Why do NBA players get called thugs, but NHL players are lauded?

I'll give you one guess.

Logan

12-17-2006, 05:53 PM

The guy decided it was a good idea to lay down on the scorers' table after a brawl. He also flipped out after getting kicked out of a game at MSG and put a beatdown on a video camera that would make the fax machine in Office Space cower in fear. I've never met Mike Tyson or Dennis Rodman, but I don't have any problem classifying them either.

miami_fan

12-17-2006, 06:23 PM

Why do NBA players get called thugs, but NHL players are lauded?

This literally made me laugh out loud. I hope this was a rhetorical question.

Easy Mac

12-17-2006, 06:31 PM

I'll give you one guess.

because violence is part of hockey and not basketball?

TheOhioStateUniversity

12-17-2006, 06:40 PM

WVUFAN

12-17-2006, 07:02 PM

While I agree there are distinct philosophical differences between the games of basketball and hockey, the physicality involved in basketball cannot be ignored. The extremes seen in the Pacers incident and in this most recent Knicks incident should never be ignored or excused but surely anyone who has played basketball can attest, in a heated game a hard foul,misplaced elbow, or intense post up can easily lead to aggression.

Bullshit.

It's an excuse that idiotic, overpaid, childish little boys who don't have a lick of sense say when they're caught acting like the little punks they are.

There's not a tenth of the huge brawls like this in college basketball that there are in professional, and that's because there's better controls in place. The inmates run the asylum that is the NBA, and it's to the point where it's completly out of control.

I agree with CU, disband the whole damn sport.

Neuqua

12-17-2006, 07:34 PM

Bullshit.

It's an excuse that idiotic, overpaid, childish little boys who don't have a lick of sense say when they're caught acting like the little punks they are.

There's not a tenth of the huge brawls like this in college basketball that there are in professional, and that's because there's better controls in place. The inmates run the asylum that is the NBA, and it's to the point where it's completly out of control.

I agree with CU, disband the whole damn sport.

Would you say the same for NCAA football then?

molson

12-17-2006, 07:58 PM

Would you say the same for NCAA football then?

Or baseball as well for that matter?

There's many more bench-clearing brawls during the baseball season than there are in the NBA. Yet, when it happens in baseball, it's usually considered an amusing distraction.

sterlingice

12-17-2006, 08:10 PM

Or baseball as well for that matter?

There's many more bench-clearing brawls during the baseball season than there are in the NBA. Yet, when it happens in baseball, it's usually considered an amusing distraction.

To be fair, there's a reason why MLB "fights" are considered amusing distractions. A lot of the time, there's not even a punch thrown- just a lot of idiots dancing around.

SI

KWhit

12-17-2006, 08:19 PM

You can't see it on the video, but Melo is getting choked before he throws the slap.

That snapshot was seconds before he threw the slap. He realized he shouldn't have thrown it and ran back to avoid further suspension, but he was not the instigator of the situation by any means.

You wouldn't happen to be a Nuggets fan, would you? Things had totally died down and he rushes up, sucker punches a guy, and then runs away.

And if you look at the video closely, people are trying to keep Carmello away from the action. I don't buy that he was getting "choked" at all.

miami_fan

12-17-2006, 08:28 PM

You wouldn't happen to be a Nuggets fan, would you? Things had totally died down and he rushes up, sucker punches a guy, and then runs away.

And if you look at the video closely, people are trying to keep Carmello away from the action. I don't buy that he was getting "choked" at all.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/12172006/photos/knicks090.jpg

I am not sure when this pic was taken but as you can see he was choked at some point.

KWhit

12-17-2006, 08:32 PM

http://www.nypost.com/seven/12172006/photos/knicks090.jpg

I am not sure when this pic was taken but as you can see he was choked at some point.

I saw the pic when it was posted earlier in the thread. And I can see a guy with his hand on Carmelo's neck/shoulder. It is unclear from this shot whether this is a choke or a push.

I don't have a dog in this fight (so to speak) but you can't tell from a still photo if that's a choke or not.

Logan

12-17-2006, 08:36 PM

I haven't been able to find it online, but the print edition of today's NY Daily News has a picture of Anthony with his hand around Robinson's throat.

KWhit

12-17-2006, 08:40 PM

I haven't been able to find it online, but the print edition of today's NY Daily News has a picture of Anthony with his hand around Robinson's throat.

http://www.nydailynews.com/images/editors/sports1217.jpg

KWhit

12-17-2006, 08:40 PM

I haven't been able to find it online, but the print edition of today's NY Daily News has a picture of Anthony with his hand around Robinson's throat.

You didn't try very hard.

;)

Logan

12-17-2006, 08:45 PM

You didn't try very hard.

;)

Mother-effer!

Seriously, I looked through each of the 4 or so articles about the game for the pic. My problem was I was going off of the home page, and not the sports section.

Actually though, this is different than the picture I was talking about in print. This one gives a better view of how he's grabbing Robinson's neck, while the first pic I saw was a little more ambiguous (like the one of Melo getting grabbed) so you couldn't tell exactly what was happening.

Deattribution

12-17-2006, 08:51 PM

Melo is clearly just lending a helping hand across the throat, the stand up guy he is to make sure the incident doesn't escalate, he was not the instigator of the situation by any means. . . . .

Sadly even in that picture he looks like he's ready to duck and run.

cthomer5000

12-17-2006, 08:53 PM

The NBA should fight every night instead of whatever it is they do. I haven't paid this much attention to the NBA since the last brawl.

Im with you. I would be a season ticket holder if they could guarantee this kind of action once in a while. It's the only thing that makes it interesting.

WVUFAN

12-17-2006, 10:10 PM

Would you say the same for NCAA football then?

And if it was the same group of people or the same team doing it all the time (like it is in college football ... coughMiamicough ... than I would say that.

But it's not. It seems to be pervasive throughtout the entire NBA.

Dutch

12-18-2006, 01:31 AM

Im with you. I would be a season ticket holder if they could guarantee this kind of action once in a while. It's the only thing that makes it interesting.

Exactly, if there is a probable threat that once per game two guys would throw off their head-bands and face guards, and lock in mortal combat, that would definately get my attention.

Logan

12-18-2006, 03:53 AM

Saw the replay of Isiah telling Carmelo to stay out of the paint.

He's screwed (hopefully).

stevew

12-18-2006, 04:17 AM

wade moore

12-18-2006, 06:32 AM

And if it was the same group of people or the same team doing it all the time (like it is in college football ... coughMiamicough ... than I would say that.

But it's not. It seems to be pervasive throughtout the entire NBA.

What about MLB? There are FAR more fights in MLB than NBA.

What say you?

WVUFAN

12-18-2006, 06:55 AM

What about MLB? There are FAR more fights in MLB than NBA.

What say you?

So how many MLB fights wind up in the stands? It's not close to being the same thing.

10, 15 years ago when good players with proper attitudes played, I very much enjoyed the NBA. I liked it when Isiah Thomas, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, all people who acted like, y'know, ADULTS played the game.

Now there's idiots on the court that act like fools off the court (such as bitching they have to dress up properly before games) and making the entire league look bad. I don't blame the players, really ... the NBA is drafting them out of high school and thrusting a bunch of money at kids clearly not ready to accept the responsibility that goes with being a celebrity. The NBA needs to take ahold of this situation. David Stern is a horrible commissioner, and they need to get someone with a heavy hand to right the ship.

wade moore

12-18-2006, 07:12 AM

How many NBA fights have wound up in the stands?

One. That's right, one.

If you're buying the argument that this fight went into the stands, you'll have to show me footage that ESPN didn't because I saw nothing in the stands on their footage.

wade moore

12-18-2006, 07:14 AM

Dola: And yeah, I should throw NHL in with MLB since it's far worse as far as one on one fights.

WVUFAN

12-18-2006, 07:21 AM

Dola: And yeah, I should throw NHL in with MLB since it's far worse as far as one on one fights.

Fighting is part of that sport.

dime

12-18-2006, 07:32 AM

So how many MLB fights wind up in the stands? It's not close to being the same thing.

10, 15 years ago when good players with proper attitudes played, I very much enjoyed the NBA. I liked it when Isiah Thomas, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, all people who acted like, y'know, ADULTS played the game.

Now there's idiots on the court that act like fools off the court (such as bitching they have to dress up properly before games) and making the entire league look bad. I don't blame the players, really ... the NBA is drafting them out of high school and thrusting a bunch of money at kids clearly not ready to accept the responsibility that goes with being a celebrity. The NBA needs to take ahold of this situation. David Stern is a horrible commissioner, and they need to get someone with a heavy hand to right the ship.

the league has gotten "blacker", but so has pop culture in general. david stern's heavy-handed moves have been a clear attempt to accomodate folks such as yourself, who are offended and frightened by sweatpants, rap lyrics and so on. I don't think it's going to work on either front, but he is trying.

baseball has had quite a few incidents in the stands, I'm sure someone will come along and list them all. these incidents just don't get the OHMYGODLOOKATTHESAVAGES kind of play that a "brawl" (with one girly punch?) an NBA game gets, what with all its terrifying cornrows, tattoos and homeboy posturing.

you think isiah thomas had a "proper attitude"?!? he was one of the dirtiest players of all time! if you don't know anything about basketball just recuse yourself, there's no shame in that.

Subby

12-18-2006, 07:32 AM

I'm laughing at the liberal use of the term "thug"....
For once I completely agree with you. I guess a black guy with tatoos and/or cornrows is automatically a thug. The only thing predictable is some folks' overtly racist reactions to anything negative that happens in the NBA...

Subby

12-18-2006, 07:36 AM

And this thread lends credence to my long held hypothesis that WVUFAN is going to celebrate his 80th birthday next year.

wade moore

12-18-2006, 07:43 AM

For once I completely agree with you. I guess a black guy with tatoos and/or cornrows is automatically a thug. The only thing predictable is some folks' overtly racist reactions to anything negative that happens in the NBA...

Agreed.

WVUFan has still not celarly explained how this is worse than MLB that has all-out bench clearing brawls on a consistent basis.

Once last year an ugly incident happened in the stands with a couple of NBA players.

That does not make the league full of thugs.

JonInMiddleGA

12-18-2006, 08:09 AM

That does not make the league full of thugs.

Wanna figure out the percentage of NBA players with rap sheets vs MLB players withrap sheets? (I don't have the patience to go through the rosters & the book-in sheets but I'd be willing to hazard a guess).

I would suggest the same comparison with the NFL but the Bengals sort of skew that beyond reasonability ;)

wade moore

12-18-2006, 08:17 AM

Wanna figure out the percentage of NBA players with rap sheets vs MLB players withrap sheets? (I don't have the patience to go through the rosters & the book-in sheets but I'd be willing to hazard a guess).

I would suggest the same comparison with the NFL but the Bengals sort of skew that beyond reasonability ;)

If you want to use that argument for defining "thug" I might be with you a little more, but that's not what WVUFan is saying here. He's saying that this incident and incidents like it are what is making the NBA a league of thugs. IMO, this type of incident happens in this order of frequency in the professional leagues

1. NHL
2. MLB
.
.
.
3. NBA
.
.
4. NFL

I have no idea on MLS...

FWIW, I think there are thugs in the NBA, but I don't thing there are necessarily that many more than in other leagues.

JonInMiddleGA

12-18-2006, 08:21 AM

FWIW, I think there are thugs in the NBA, but I don't thing there are necessarily that many more than in other leagues.

{shrug} I reckon we'll just have to disagree.

As for the actual incident, it looked more like a bitchslap fight than a brawl to me. But it was still the most interesting thing to happen in the league in a couple of years.

wade moore

12-18-2006, 08:26 AM

{shrug} I reckon we'll just have to disagree.

As for the actual incident, it looked more like a bitchslap fight than a brawl to me. But it was still the most interesting thing to happen in the league in a couple of years.

For the "thug" thing, I think it all depends on your definition.. If you limit it just to their criminal records, then yeah, NBA might be higher % wise. But if you include everything that I think should be included, I think it becomes much closer.

As for the incident, I agree, which makes me even more baffled as to why this makes WVUFan call them thugs.

WVUFAN

12-18-2006, 08:31 AM

For once I completely agree with you. I guess a black guy with tatoos and/or cornrows is automatically a thug. The only thing predictable is some folks' overtly racist reactions to anything negative that happens in the NBA...

There's plenty of black people with cornrows and tatoos in the NFL, and you don't see the NFL being considered by a large group of people in this country (including some on ESPN) as being a group of thugs.

But we all must be racists, right? Because we expect people to behave decently and with respect, that's a racist attitute. We're not letting NBA players "be real" or whatever.

I MUST be 80 years old or so, because I expect athletes to conduct themselves like decent human beings. That's the comeback ... I'm an 80 year old with just doesn't understand the modern NBA, and infer that those who don't like the way the NBA handles itself MUST be racists? C'mon.

So if that's what you think I am, I accept it. I guess I'm one of those that want to be able to watch a sport without disliking the majority of people who play in it because of their attitude. I'm one of the few minority that believe professional athletes have a responsibility to be role-models to youth in word and deed. I'm one of those "old people" (I'm 35, by the way, Subby) who would rather watch college basketball because the way the NBA players act on and off the field makes me sick.

But that MUST just be me. After all, the image problem the NBA has by it's own admission MUST be just a bunch of old, racist people like me bitching and has no basis in actual fact. Is that what y'all are saying?

I long for the days when good athletes like Michael Jordan and Larry Bird played. Sure, there's some players I enjoy watching (like LeBron James), but on the whole, people like Iverson, Artest and half the rest of the NBA has caused me to actively turn the channel when a game comes on.

There's bad apples in the NFL too, but the NFL keeps such a tight reign on their players that those few don't ruin the game for the rest. You don't see the NFL players bitching when they dress in suit and tie to away games, as most teams require. But, like you said, I guess the NFL just isn't letting players "express" themselves.

EDIT: Normally I wouldn't care enough about the NBA to respond like above, but I honestly don't like being called a racist. Old man, I'm fine with. I get called that all the time. :-)

Maple Leafs

12-18-2006, 08:39 AM

Why do NBA players get called thugs, but NHL players are lauded?

Yeah, Artest went to fight with fans....what about Tie Domi pulling that dude into the penalty box?
Bad example. As someone mentioned already, Domi wasn't at fault in the penalty box incident. But even more than that, Domi was regularly criticized by media. Geez, Damien Cox probably has a car or two he bought with the money he made writing "Domi is a thug" columns. Factor in the hyperventilating by US media over incidents like Todd Bertuzzi and Marty McSorely, and your whole "double standard" argument falls apart pretty quickly.

Chubby

12-18-2006, 08:47 AM

I love all the people bringing up fighting in the NHL as if it exists anymore (or is even close to what it used to be 5-6 years ago)

Subby

12-18-2006, 08:53 AM

WVUFAN - my comments are based on your complete overreaction to an incident which jimga correctly referred to as "a slap fight".

You obviously do not follow the league and don't really watch the games. The large majority of the league is made up of professionals who play hard every night and earn what the free market is paying them. Using this incident as your springboard for demonizing the NBA and its commisioner is ridiculous.

If you don't like the product, fine - but quit overgeneralizing about the character of 450+ professional athletes whose behavior is probably no worse on average than any of the other major professional team sports. For every overhyped, media-saturated headcase like Ron Artest there are twenty other guys who play their asses off and stay out of trouble.

Look, you and I are the same age and I can be every bit as curmudgeonly - it just bothers me when seemingly intelligent people overgeneralize about something that, in reality, they don't really know all that much about.

WVUFAN

12-18-2006, 09:13 AM

You obviously do not follow the league and don't really watch the games. The large majority of the league is made up of professionals who play hard every night and earn what the free market is paying them. Using this incident as your springboard for demonizing the NBA and its commisioner is ridiculous.

That's probably true, but those few people are destroying the overall image of the league for everyone else.

If you don't like the product, fine - but quit overgeneralizing about the character of 450+ professional athletes whose behavior is probably no worse on average than any of the other major professional team sports. For every overhyped, media-saturated headcase like Ron Artest there are twenty other guys who play their asses off and stay out of trouble.

The "product" is fine. I like the SPORT of basketball. I don't like some the "professional" players who play it. It depends of what you consider the product. I watch college basketball all the time.

Look, you and I are the same age and I can be every bit as curmudgeonly - it just bothers me when seemingly intelligent people overgeneralize about something that, in reality, they don't really know all that much about.
I never said I was an expert on the NBA, but I certainly can say from what I've read and seen that the NBA's image is in the dumps, and there's a reason for that the goes beyond race. Underestimating the problem as "just a fight" is just as bad as any overgeneralization I make, and the NBA has a problem that isn't being addressed.

CU Tiger

12-18-2006, 09:41 AM

NBA
30 teams * 82 games = 2460 potentials for incident

MLB
30 * 162 games = 4860 potentials for incident

Baseball has what 3 or 4 good real incidents a year
Basketball has 1 or 2

The rate is about the same.
Lets not act like this was the first scuffle since Auburn Hills incident.
It was just the highest profile.

Also its not about racism. The image is about PROFESSIONALISM. Jordan, Magic, Isaih, David Robinson, hell even Dennis Rodman. If you saw them come into the arena (like I did when I worked for the Hornets) it was about who had the finest taylor, nicest suit tie etc.

The sweats ball cap and untied sneakers are fine, but not at work. Hell if I came to work like I dress on my day off (even when I go out, I dont put on a jacket and tie generally) I would be fired. Thats what Stern is trying to impress upon these guys. Look like professionals.

I really dont think the fight was that bad. I do think mello looked like a lil bitch, and I think the product as a whole sucks these days. Thats why I say dissolve the leeague. Not because of this chicken shit fight. Dissolve the league because we are paying millions for an inferior product.

Why do we lose all international competitions? Because we have no discipline. Don't tell me the intenational game is that much different, the goal is still to put the ball in the basket. If it was the style (and not the intensity and pssion) that makes the Euros better, Mark Cuban would ahve already hired the Italian National team and won an NBA championship. The American "style" of Basketball is untouchable when it is played by professionals who care. Just ask, MJ, Magic, David Robisnon, Scottie Pippen, Karl Malone, Charles Barkely about 92.

See the kids watched them and watched a Barkley flap his jaws and throw chumps through windows and thought thats what made him cool. They missed the hard work, the diving on the floor, the dedication. They have the act, not the substance.

Thats why Barkley was right. He was not (or should not have been) a role model. Hard work, dedication, integrity, and mental toughness can't be learned from a TV or a video game, not even a PS3.

Damn this is ridiculously long.
Summary
Thugs bad
Basketball product bad
Race unimportant
Mello Lil Bitch

wade moore

12-18-2006, 09:45 AM

NBA
30 teams * 82 games = 2460 potentials for incident

MLB
30 * 162 games = 4860 potentials for incident

Baseball has what 3 or 4 good real incidents a year
Basketball has 1 or 2

FWIW, I disagree with your assumptions here. I think MLB has far more than 3 or 4.

Leonidas

12-18-2006, 10:05 AM

I really dont care one way or another, but...
Did you watch the whole game?
Not that I condone the the brawl or even the foul, but when you are up by 20 an you stil have your starters on the court with 1:15 you know what you are doing.
George Karl was sending a message mainly because he and Larry Brown are close friends.
The orevious possesion on a breakaway he did a bit of showboating (which leading by 20 is as poor sportsman ship as the hard foul IMO)

After watching this a few times, it looks like immediately following the foul he try to catch the Nuggett to keep him from falling, but is unsuccessful.

Not saying it justifies anything, but I dont think the nuggets are blameless here either.
Really George Karl cost his team. Had Mello not been on the court he would never be looking at the suspension he is getting ready to get (and should get, I would kick him out of the NBA. until he grew a set of nuts personally) but what if he had been injured. Explain to your owner well our season is over, because our star was injured while we ran up the score on the guy who fired my friend...

I really think the only fair and reasonable course of action is to shut down the entire NBA. Didn't watch the game. In fact, please, somebody just shoot me if I am ever caught deliberately watching a Knicks game. And I wasn't assigning blame, I was merely laughing at Nate Robinson's ludicrous assertion that it was a clean foul. Ever since Rick Mahron nearly decapitated Mark Price these kinds of fouls have been prevalent in the NBA. I'd even say condoned as a legitimate part of defensive intimidation, which is not beautiful the game I was taught to play in high school 25 years ago. If the NBA really wants to deal with this, then forget the stupid flagrant foul rule. You commit a flagrant foul, it's an automatic ejection and three game suspension the first time. Second time you get 20 games,, third time a season, fourth time banishment. Then maybe we can think about getting this back to the fabulous game it once was when Magic, Larry, and the Doc played a wonderful, athletic game that kept us riveted.

wade moore

12-18-2006, 10:25 AM

DIf the NBA really wants to deal with this, then forget the stupid flagrant foul rule. You commit a flagrant foul, it's an automatic ejection and three game suspension the first time.

It's an automatic ejection in the NCAA and seems to be pretty effective imo.

Young Drachma

12-18-2006, 10:39 AM

For once I completely agree with you. I guess a black guy with tatoos and/or cornrows is automatically a thug. The only thing predictable is some folks' overtly racist reactions to anything negative that happens in the NBA...

Exactly. That's why I hate when this happens in basketball. Everyone immediately tries to brand it as some sort of endemic problem with the sport, when in hockey...people go knowing nothing about the game, but LOVING the hard hits and of course, the fights.

Hate the sport if you want, but don't turn it into an excuse to be a racist.

And I don't even like the NBA much.

Young Drachma

12-18-2006, 10:44 AM

I can agree that the NBA product is at best, lackluster. But, I think that's just a problem that the sport of basketball has to begin with and David Stern's management of the league.

WVUFAN

12-18-2006, 12:06 PM

I'm watching Cold Pizza right now, and I have to compliment David Stern on fining the TEAMS $500K each for the brawl. I like how he says "if the teams continue to his the type of employees that causes altercations such as the one on Saturday, they were bear the responsibilities for their actions on and off the court". He also indicated coaches and general managers for teams would start to get fines for player actions as well as the players themselves getting fined and suspended.

I like that.

Gary Gorski

12-18-2006, 12:17 PM

There's plenty of black people with cornrows and tatoos in the NFL, and you don't see the NFL being considered by a large group of people in this country (including some on ESPN) as being a group of thugs.

Ah but you're missing an important difference - NFL players are much more "covered up". They wear helmets and full jerseys so you don't see the cornrows and tatoos etc and because people don't see them they don't label the same stereotype on those players.

Because we expect people to behave decently and with respect, that's a racist attitute. We're not letting NBA players "be real" or whatever.

I MUST be 80 years old or so, because I expect athletes to conduct themselves like decent human beings. That's the comeback ... I'm an 80 year old with just doesn't understand the modern NBA, and infer that those who don't like the way the NBA handles itself MUST be racists? C'mon.

I'm one of the few minority that believe professional athletes have a responsibility to be role-models to youth in word and deed.

Now I didn't make any previous comments to you but you started your post by referencing the NFL and you don't seem to have the same dislike for that league yet wasn't it just this weekend when a grown man spit in the face of another one? And wasn't a high profile quarterback fined for flipping off the crowd recently? Or how about earlier this season when one guy stomped on a man's face with his cleats? Those are examples of decent behavior?

I long for the days when good athletes like Michael Jordan and Larry Bird played. Sure, there's some players I enjoy watching (like LeBron James), but on the whole, people like Iverson, Artest and half the rest of the NBA has caused me to actively turn the channel when a game comes on.

There's bad apples in the NFL too, but the NFL keeps such a tight reign on their players that those few don't ruin the game for the rest.

Half of the NBA acts like Carmello Anthony, Iverson (not really sure why you brought him into this as I don't recall him being involved in a brawl recently) and Ron Artest? That's as blanket of a statement as saying half the NFL acts like TO or the Bengals.

If you're going to say you don't like the NBA because you don't like the sport of basketball, fine. I'll even buy the argument that you don't like the NBA because its evolved into a more athletic game with less fundamentals than in the "old days". But if you're going to say you don't like the NBA because of how a small percentage of its players behave but yet claim that half of the players act that way while not sharing the same opinion of how players in other sports behave then that doesn't add up. I think what happened in that game was terrible and I think it has no place in the sport and that a small percentage of the people in the NBA are thugs. But that same percentage exists in the other sports as well and there are just as many incidents of bad behavior whether it is spitting in someone's face or throwing a 100 MPH fastball intentionally at someone's head that I don't understand how you can pass judgment on an entire group of players in one sport and not in the other sports.

stevew

12-18-2006, 12:21 PM

Well, Carmella got his 15 game suspension, a couple other guys got 10. I'm sure he will appeal to try to get it reduced. All in all, I applaud Stern for being pretty harsh, hopefully it sends a message that you need to calm.thefuck.down when tempers flare. While Marty Collins did do a pretty hard foul, the person to blame here was really JR Smith. If he just shoots his free throws, none of this shit happens. Oh Well.

Crapshoot

12-18-2006, 12:28 PM

For once I completely agree with you. I guess a black guy with tatoos and/or cornrows is automatically a thug. The only thing predictable is some folks' overtly racist reactions to anything negative that happens in the NBA...

"". Suspensions all around, but "thug" gets thrown around all to often as a thinly veiled euphemism for "black." Iverson personifies this IMO - Simmons' had one of his better articles on this last week. There's a lot of older guys (ie - sportswriters) who react strongly to a culture they don't understand and don't like.

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 12:30 PM

You never saw The Chief slap Laimbeer in the face and immediately run towards the lockeroom, melo style.

wade moore

12-18-2006, 12:35 PM

molson

12-18-2006, 12:43 PM

So how many MLB fights wind up in the stands? It's not close to being the same thing.

10, 15 years ago when good players with proper attitudes played, I very much enjoyed the NBA. I liked it when Isiah Thomas, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, all people who acted like, y'know, ADULTS played the game.

Now there's idiots on the court that act like fools off the court (such as bitching they have to dress up properly before games) and making the entire league look bad. I don't blame the players, really ... the NBA is drafting them out of high school and thrusting a bunch of money at kids clearly not ready to accept the responsibility that goes with being a celebrity. The NBA needs to take ahold of this situation. David Stern is a horrible commissioner, and they need to get someone with a heavy hand to right the ship.

Why are you so obsessed with how players feel about the dress code? People complain about the dress code in my law office, are they thugs too?

You're greatly exaggerating the amount of incidents and lawbreakers in the NBA. They weren't choir boys in your perceived "glory days" of the NBA. You're making a ton of generalizations, even though you're clearly not familiar with the current product. Where are these ideas coming from, I wonder.

stevew

12-18-2006, 12:47 PM

Stern had a pretty good quote:

"I was very disappointed," Stern said. "Clearly, we're not getting through or players in certain circumstances just don't want to be restrained. I would suggest that those players will not have long careers in the NBA."

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 12:49 PM

There's a lot of older guys (ie - sportswriters) who react strongly to a culture they don't understand and don't like.

Are they supposed to like it?

WVUFAN

12-18-2006, 12:50 PM

Now I didn't make any previous comments to you but you started your post by referencing the NFL and you don't seem to have the same dislike for that league yet wasn't it just this weekend when a grown man spit in the face of another one? And wasn't a high profile quarterback fined for flipping off the crowd recently? Or how about earlier this season when one guy stomped on a man's face with his cleats? Those are examples of decent behavior?

In each of those instances (and I'm sure Owens will get heavily fined) those players were suspended and/or fined. Stuff will happen, but the difference is that the NBA allows non-violent off the field stuff to happen with no response, whereas the NFL comes down pretty hard on it.

So lemme ask you this question, then ... why does the NBA have the image of being a "thug league" (those are ESPN's words, not mine) and the NFL doesn't. It's not because NFL players have a helmet on covering cornrows and uniforms covering the tattoos. That just doesn't fly.

Half of the NBA acts like Carmello Anthony, Iverson (not really sure why you brought him into this as I don't recall him being involved in a brawl recently) and Ron Artest? That's as blanket of a statement as saying half the NFL acts like TO or the Bengals.

Fair enough. But perception is EVERYTHING in the overall image of a professional league. When you allow a minority of people acting like thugs (like Iverson ... his attitude and demeanor is why I brought him up), the decent players oftentime get caught up in the image as well.

But you and Subby are absolutely right ... I'm sure the majority of NBA players are fine people, but there's an overall impression of the league and it's players that is less than steller. I was wrong to call all the NBA thugs, as I'm sure that's not the case.

If you're going to say you don't like the NBA because you don't like the sport of basketball, fine. I'll even buy the argument that you don't like the NBA because its evolved into a more athletic game with less fundamentals than in the "old days".

That sentence seems to indicate that "old days" (and by that, I mean the 1980's and early 90's) were less athletic, and I completely disagree with that.

But that same percentage exists in the other sports as well and there are just as many incidents of bad behavior whether it is spitting in someone's face or throwing a 100 MPH fastball intentionally at someone's head that I don't understand how you can pass judgment on an entire group of players in one sport and not in the other sports.

Because the management in the other sports do not allow those few bad people to influence the overall image of the league.

Terrell Owens has what I call an "NBA Attitude", and if he was an NBA player, I firmly believe he would be considered a regular player when it comes to his attitude and demeanor. In the NFL, he's consider by most the "anti-NFL"; someone who has a me-first attitude, no team skills and a poor attitude.

Whether the majority of NBA players are fine, upstanding people isn't the point. It's that the perception of the league overall is very, very bad. Saying it's because the majority of players are black just doesn't fly. The NBA has a pretty stellar image in the 80's and the majority of players were black back then. The NFL is mostly black, and they don't have that image.

So ... something is different between the attitudes in the NBA that causes the league to have that image (and this is by David Stern's own admission when he said today he's trying to clean up the NBA's tarnisted image), and you can't tell me it's because we can see Allen Iverson's hair style.

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 12:52 PM

You never saw The Chief slap Laimbeer in the face and immediately run towards the lockeroom, melo style.

This is an excellent point. I'm actually confused why Carmelo got suspended at all. Isn't it enough of a punishment that the entire Association now considers him a pussy?

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 12:55 PM

This is an excellent point. I'm actually confused why Carmelo got suspended at all. Isn't it enough of a punishment that the entire Association now considers him a pussy?

I'm amazed I hear people defend his "bitch slap". Whether or not you think the Knick deserved it, my only point is if you decide you are going to go after someone at least do it like a man. Oh and don't give me the "melo was being smart to avoid further penalty crap." ...like he was thinking like that.

In my day The Chief would start throwing haymakers and it was your job to prepare to defend yourself.

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 12:57 PM

He should just change his name to Carmelo The Pussy.

WVUFAN

12-18-2006, 12:58 PM

Why are you so obsessed with how players feel about the dress code? People complain about the dress code in my law office, are they thugs too?

Do they get into fist fights in the middle of court?

Where are these ideas coming from, I wonder.

I don't know ... why don't you tell me?

Maybe it's because I expect people calling themselves "professionals" and making millions of dollars a year to dress the part. Much like if I had a lawyer, I wouldn't expect them to come into court (or even dress when they're in the office) in an unprofessional manner.

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 12:59 PM

He should just change his name to Carmelo The Pussy.

4 foot tall Nate Robinson isn't running for any lockeroom. He'll body slam you if you come near him.

molson

12-18-2006, 01:00 PM

wade moore

12-18-2006, 01:01 PM

Do they get into fist fights in the middle of court?

I don't know ... why don't you tell me?

Maybe it's because I expect people calling themselves "professionals" and making millions of dollars a year to dress the part. Much like if I had a lawyer, I wouldn't expect them to come into court (or even dress when they're in the office) in an unprofessional manner.

I think my biggest problem with your side of the argument is that any time someone points out a flaw you shift argument. Then when someone points to a flaw there you shift again. Somehow you end up shifting back to an initial argument that someone disputed.

For instance here, someone disputes your clothing argument, and you go back to the fistfights which I think has been pretty universally proven that other sports that you are not criticizing have far more fistfights than the NBA.

heybrad

12-18-2006, 01:02 PM

http://i16.tinypic.com/2qmjmo6.jpg

molson

12-18-2006, 01:04 PM

Do they get into fist fights in the middle of court?

OK, so someone is only a thug if they complain about the dress code AND get into fist fights? How many people is that? You sound like my grandfather complaining about "the blacks" and all the crimes they commit.

BrianD

12-18-2006, 01:08 PM

Did the theme of this thread just change from "NBA brawls are bad" to "NBA brawls need to be tougher"? Melo's slap wasn't so bad except for the fact that it wasn't a full punch?

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 01:09 PM

Did the theme of this thread just change from "NBA brawls are bad" to "NBA brawls need to be tougher"? Melo's slap wasn't so bad except for the fact that it wasn't a full punch?

sort of

I mean not only did he do something wrong, the execution was terrible. He got the double whammy. He's suspended and known as a pansy.

Subby

12-18-2006, 01:10 PM

I have a hard time calling that a brawl when the biggest (and only) hit came from someone who slapped and ran...

Crapshoot

12-18-2006, 01:11 PM

How exactly does Iverson act like a "thug"?

Because he has tatoos and cornrows- duh. :rolleyes: Isn't WVUFan clear enough about this yet?

Subby

12-18-2006, 01:11 PM

A bunch of thugs (which is pretty much all the NBA is nowadays) got into another brawl.

Whatta a surprise. :rolleyes:
I just want to quote your first post in this thread again because it is becoming difficult to tread through all of your backpeddling double-speak bullshit...

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 01:12 PM

Did the theme of this thread just change from "NBA brawls are bad" to "NBA brawls need to be tougher"? Melo's slap wasn't so bad except for the fact that it wasn't a full punch?

NBA brawls don't need to be tougher, just there are certain players who should just go sit on the bench when they break out. Like Carmelo the Pussy. Seriously, what did he accomplish? He made himself a laughing stock. Plus he had to get suspended.

Pumpy Tudors

12-18-2006, 01:14 PM

You can really see some people's true colors in this thread.

(like Carmelo's color is yellow lolololol)

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 01:17 PM

who more thug Melo or Bette Midler

thanks

BrianD

12-18-2006, 01:18 PM

NBA brawls don't need to be tougher, just there are certain players who should just go sit on the bench when they break out. Like Carmelo the Pussy. Seriously, what did he accomplish? He made himself a laughing stock. Plus he had to get suspended.

So you seem to accept as a given that brawls will break out, and the "pussy players" should stay on the bench so the "men" can take care of business. Have I got that about right?

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 01:18 PM

who more thug Melo or Bette Midler

thanks

I don't know, but Melo would make a terrible werewolf.

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 01:19 PM

So you seem to accept as a given that brawls will break out, and the "pussy players" should stay on the bench so the "men" can take care of business. Have I got that about right?

that normally worked for Pedro Martinez until he decided to go all thug on a 90 year old man

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 01:20 PM

So you seem to accept as a given that brawls will break out, and the "pussy players" should stay on the bench so the "men" can take care of business. Have I got that about right?

I don't actually care about the NBA at all. Every year I try and get interested in the league but, like MLB, I find the product to be unbearable.

But, having said that, I really don't get how anybody can have one ounce of respect for Carmelo right now.

Crapshoot

12-18-2006, 01:20 PM

Are they supposed to like it?

I'm not sure why liking rap, flashy cars, or having a good time (as most young people with money are apt to do) is some sort of character flaw. Are these guys supposed to say "yes sir, no sir" to reporters?

sabotai

12-18-2006, 01:21 PM

I miss hockey brawls.

None of this throw one punch and run a girl stuff.

Weak sauce, NBA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0fFqTSbZEg

albionmoonlight

12-18-2006, 01:22 PM

Did the theme of this thread just change from "NBA brawls are bad" to "NBA brawls need to be tougher"?

I'm having a little trouble following this thread myself, but I think that we are heading toward the conclusion that Melo and WVUFAN need to have a no-holds-barred steel cage match with The Chief as special guest referee in order to determine whether Alan Iverson would make a good lawyer.

Or something like that.

JonInMiddleGA

12-18-2006, 01:23 PM

So lemme ask you this question, then ... why does the NBA have the image of being a "thug league" (those are ESPN's words, not mine) and the NFL doesn't. It's not because NFL players have a helmet on covering cornrows and uniforms covering the tattoos. That just doesn't fly.

1) I think you're understimating the negative image that is growing around the NFL. Right now it's the Bengals. But if another team starts to consistently go the (old) Trailblazers route I believe you'll begin to see/hear a lot more of the same stuff that goes with the NBA.

2) I think you're grossly understimating the difference that the helmets & uniforms covering the cornrows & gang tats is making.

wade moore

12-18-2006, 01:24 PM

How exactly does Iverson act like a "thug"?

I don't like the characterizations some people are making in this thread, but pulling Iverson out as your shining example is not a wise strategy.

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 01:25 PM

I'm not sure why liking rap, flashy cars, or having a good time (as most young people with money are apt to do) is some sort of character flaw. Are these guys supposed to say "yes sir, no sir" to reporters?

I'm not saying it's a character flaw. What I'm suggesting is that preferring Larry Bird to Allen Iverson does not make somebody a racist.

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 01:26 PM

I don't like the characterizations some people are making in this thread, but pulling Iverson out as your shining example is not a was strategy.

lol

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 01:27 PM

I'm not saying it's a character flaw. What I'm suggesting is that preferring Larry Bird to Allen Iverson does not make somebody a racist.

How about someone who perfers Brian Scalabrine over Iverson?

Pumpy Tudors

12-18-2006, 01:27 PM

I'm really sick of all this "thug" talk. There hasn't been a single thug in the NBA since Arvydas Sabonis left the league.

BrianD

12-18-2006, 01:28 PM

I don't actually care about the NBA at all. Every year I try and get interested in the league but, like MLB, I find the product to be unbearable.

But, having said that, I really don't get how anybody can have one ounce of respect for Carmelo right now.

I agree that the NBA is a crappy product. I just don't see how Melo gets the short end of the respect-stick. Obviously you get no respect for slapping and running, but would he get more respect for throwing a real punch? Does he get less respect than the guy committing the flagrant foul? It seems like one giant grab-bag of no-respect to me.

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 01:30 PM

How about someone who perfers Brian Scalabrine over Iverson?

Brian Scalabrine was no Chris Dudley.

albionmoonlight

12-18-2006, 01:31 PM

2) I think you're grossly understimating the difference that the helmets & uniforms covering the cornrows & gang tats is making.

Agree 100%.

People joke about the "uniform police" in the NFL and players getting fined $5,000 for having their socks the wrong color or having their jersey untucked or whatever.

But the NFL is no dummy. They know that they are selling a product, and, like all good salesmen, they are making sure that the packaging is unblemished.

Better people joke about the "sock police" then wonder if the NFL is suitable entertainment for children.

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 01:31 PM

Brian Scalabrine was no Chris Dudley.

I raise Chuck Nevitt.

stevew

12-18-2006, 01:35 PM

1)
2) I think you're grossly understimating the difference that the helmets & uniforms covering the cornrows & gang tats is making.

"""

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 01:35 PM

I raise Chuck Nevitt.

Brad Lohaus!

stevew

12-18-2006, 01:35 PM

I raise Chuck Nevitt.

Mark Eaton. Both of you guys lose.

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 01:36 PM

Brad Lohaus!

Paul Mokeski!

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 01:38 PM

Mark Eaton. Both of you guys lose.

Damn.

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 01:39 PM

Damn.

Mark Eaton has too much bounce to count in this. Anyone who saw Chuck Nevitt play will concur he's 10 times the white man Shawn Bradley is.

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 01:43 PM

Mark Eaton has too much bounce to count in this. Anyone who saw Chuck Nevitt play will concur he's 10 times the white man Shawn Bradley is.

:confused:

You must be thinking of a different Mark Eaton. The Mark Eaton I remember had all the bounce of a medicine ball. He was a guy that got paid a lot of money to stand under the basket with his hands up in the air.

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 01:46 PM

:confused:

You must be thinking of a different Mark Eaton. The Mark Eaton I remember had all the bounce of a medicine ball. He was a guy that got paid a lot of money to stand under the basket with his hands up in the air.

You never saw Chuck Nevitt then. Eaton actually had skills that a black man could possibly have in terms of blocking shots and running somewhat. Nevitt had none of that. His only attribute was being white and tall.

CU Tiger

12-18-2006, 01:46 PM

1) I think you're understimating the negative image that is growing around the NFL. Right now it's the Bengals. But if another team starts to consistently go the (old) Trailblazers route I believe you'll begin to see/hear a lot more of the same stuff that goes with the NBA.

2) I think you're grossly understimating the difference that the helmets & uniforms covering the cornrows & gang tats is making.

I agree. While the NFL has a much better image, and I for one certainly like the product a lot better, the NFL has had far more serious "crimes" "surrounding" it. And probably is more of a thug league, if the truth be told. I.E Tank's bodyguard/friend this past weekend. Rayray Carruth and the baby momma murder for hire. Nate Newton and his 20 tons of pot in his tractor trailer (ok a little hyperbole but not much), the Ray Lewis ATL superbowl incident, Jamal Lewis cocaine charges, Michael Irvin and well everything he does (strippers, prostitutes, crack, coc, pot, and racism) etc. Do I need to continue?

The point is (IMO) if you have a good product no one cares, or at least they turn their head quickly. The NBA is a bad product so sportswriters look for anything enjoyable in the sport to write about. Just so happens it is more interesting to calculate the speed of Melo's back pedal than it is analyze any Knick's jump shot.

In sports we love a winner, and we like anyone on our team.

That is one reason the NFL is hard for me to watch. I am a die hard Dallas fan, but I hate T.O.. It is hard to pull for a team and hope one of their best players suffers a career ending and life altering injury on every play.

But amny Cowboy fans, forgave all the day he was signed. You want the picture of whats wrong with sports? He wears 81

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 01:50 PM

You never saw Chuck Nevitt then. Eaton actually had skills that a black man could possibly have in terms of blocking shots and running somewhat. Nevitt had none of that. His only attribute was being white and tall.

I actually think I am confused, because in my memory Chuck Nevitt is in fact black.

Maple Leafs

12-18-2006, 01:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0fFqTSbZEg
Nice.

The guy on the purple team who takes the faceoff, then drops flat on his face and just lays there during the entire fight... is that Carmello Anthony?

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 01:52 PM

I actually think I am confused, because in my memory Chuck Nevitt is in fact black.

From what I recall he was a razor thin, 7-4ish white man with a mustache and ball hugger shorts.

spleen1015

12-18-2006, 01:55 PM

hxxp://www.freewebs.com/nbagiants/Chuck_Nevitt.jpg

Mr. Nevitt with Mr. Bol

VPI97

12-18-2006, 01:56 PM

How exactly does Iverson act like a "thug"?

Probably because of that whole thing where he was convicted of a felony when he helped incite a race riot and attacked a bunch of people (including two women).

wade moore

12-18-2006, 02:00 PM

Probably because of that whole thing where he was convicted of a felony when he helped incite a race riot and attacked a bunch of people (including two women).

Come on now, there's a laundry list much longer than that.

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 02:00 PM

what better manute bol, a basketball player or a hockey player

albionmoonlight

12-18-2006, 02:02 PM

I am disturbed by the shocking lack of references to Big Country in this thread.

He may not be the whitest stiffiest guy in the history of the NBA. But he deserves to be in the discussion.

Ajaxab

12-18-2006, 02:03 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0fFqTSbZEg

Gotta love how the p.a. starts playing 'Eye of the Tiger' as the fight escalates. The MSG p.a. should have kept that song on cue for Marshmello.

rkmsuf

12-18-2006, 02:04 PM

I am disturbed by the shocking lack of references to Big Country in this thread.

He may not be the whitest stiffiest guy in the history of the NBA. But he deserves to be in the discussion.

Problem is that there may be a debate in the white department regarding Chuck Nevitt vs others but he wins going away in the stiff department.

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 02:07 PM

I am disturbed by the shocking lack of references to Big Country in this thread.

He may not be the whitest stiffiest guy in the history of the NBA. But he deserves to be in the discussion.

Not even close. Upon careful reflection, I think it has to be Chris Dudley. After all, he went to YALE.

LloydLungs

12-18-2006, 02:17 PM

Chuck Nevitt was totally white. Has anyone mentioned Kurt Nimphius in this thread yet? How about Tom Boerwinkle?

And yeah, I doubt the "thuggery" levels of the NFL and NBA are substantially different. Probably 90+% of those leagues are okay guys, with the badasses grabbing the headlines, but CU Tiger is right -- generally people let the NFL slide because everyone loves the NFL. So the NBA gets the "image problem." Just taking my (barely) hometown team, I don't think there's a single bad seed on the Hornets roster. If 99% of the NBA is thugs we must have every single non-thug in the league on our roster, plus a few stealth thugs.

Or maybe it's an absurdly wild generalization/code.

stevew

12-18-2006, 02:23 PM

Probably because of that whole thing where he was convicted of a felony when he helped incite a race riot and attacked a bunch of people (including two women).

That conviction was also thrown out on appeal.

Gary Gorski

12-18-2006, 02:25 PM

In each of those instances (and I'm sure Owens will get heavily fined) those players were suspended and/or fined. Stuff will happen, but the difference is that the NBA allows non-violent off the field stuff to happen with no response, whereas the NFL comes down pretty hard on it.

So lemme ask you this question, then ... why does the NBA have the image of being a "thug league" (those are ESPN's words, not mine) and the NFL doesn't. It's not because NFL players have a helmet on covering cornrows and uniforms covering the tattoos. That just doesn't fly.

What off the field stuff are you talking about? The incidents I referenced (TO spitting, Vick flipping off the fans and the guy stepping on someone's face) all happened on the field as did this fight. Are you talking about off the field incidents like murdering people and hiding in the trunk of a car? Oh wait, that wasn't the NBA. Guess what, there are "thugs" off the field in the NFL too. And on the helmet and jersey covering the cornrows and tats - if JIMG agrees with me on the effect of that then you know its truth :)

But perception is EVERYTHING in the overall image of a professional league.

Hence why the NFL players with their cornrows and tats covered DOES make a difference.

When you allow a minority of people acting like thugs (like Iverson ... his attitude and demeanor is why I brought him up), the decent players oftentime get caught up in the image as well.

I disagree and use you as my example. Is there a bigger ass in sports than TO? Iverson may have been a selfish ass earlier in his career but even he can't hold a candle to TO but that doesn't deter you from considering him the exception rather than the rule in the NFL so why would Iverson's (former) behavior affect your view of the general population of the NBA but not have the same effect with a guy like TO in the NFL?

That sentence seems to indicate that "old days" (and by that, I mean the 1980's and early 90's) were less athletic, and I completely disagree with that.

Uh...well look at the players referenced in the posts before this one. Mark Eaton, Chuck Nevitt...yeah those guys were the pillers of athleticism. The NBA game is much quicker and has guys on average with far greater athletic abilities (not necessarily greater basketball skill or ability though) than it did back in the 80s. Sure there were great athletes back then but there were also far more guys who today would be considered less athletic than the guys who play now.

Terrell Owens has what I call an "NBA Attitude", and if he was an NBA player, I firmly believe he would be considered a regular player when it comes to his attitude and demeanor. In the NFL, he's consider by most the "anti-NFL"; someone who has a me-first attitude, no team skills and a poor attitude.

So to you someone who is selfish and has a bad attitude = NBA player as opposed to = your average run of the mill jackass that is prevalent in all aspects of life. Why do you call that an "NBA Attitude"? Again, you're stereotyping an entire group of people based on your perceptions.

Whether the majority of NBA players are fine, upstanding people isn't the point. It's that the perception of the league overall is very, very bad... something is different between the attitudes in the NBA that causes the league to have that image (and this is by David Stern's own admission when he said today he's trying to clean up the NBA's tarnisted image), and you can't tell me it's because we can see Allen Iverson's hair style.

And why is that? Why do you see NBA players as a bunch of thugs but not NFL players that way? Both leagues have players that are selfish media whores who care only about themselves. Both leagues have a handful of incidents over the course of a season that result in fines and suspensions. What is so different about the leagues?

Well the difference you refuse to acknowledge is a pretty big one. You said it yourself, perception is EVERYTHING. If Allen Iverson looked like Isiah Thomas would you have the same opinion of him? BTW, what is your opinion of guys like Thomas, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Kevin McHale, Bill Laimbeer, Charles Barkley etc...you know, the guys from this "glory era" where players weren't "thugs" yet did all kinds of dirty things and got into fights on the floor. Why aren't those guys thugs? Because they don't look like rappers? Well some NFL guys do too...except the majority of people only see them in full uniforms so other than height, weight and skin tone (and in some cases extremely long hair) the players all look the same. You can't see who "looks like a thug".

If you have some other glaring differences between players on the whole between the two sports I would love to hear them. What accounts for the perception that NBA players are a bunch of selfish thugs but NFL players are the opposite other than people's own stereotypes based on the outward appearance of the players?

stevew

12-18-2006, 02:25 PM

I'll be honest, though, I enjoy a good Ann Iverson soundbit as much as anyone.

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 02:28 PM

There is way too much spitting in the NFL.

wade moore

12-18-2006, 02:28 PM

I'll be honest, though, I enjoy a good Ann Iverson soundbit as much as anyone.

Iverson has some clear bad/criminal behavior in his past besides sound bites. I could maybe buy that he hasn't done anything recently, but to claim he only has bad soundbites is just not accurate.

miami_fan

12-18-2006, 02:29 PM

stevew

12-18-2006, 02:30 PM

Iverson has some clear bad/criminal behavior in his past besides sound bites. I could maybe buy that he hasn't done anything recently, but to claim he only has bad soundbites is just not accurate.

I was referring to his momma.....they used to play some hilarious ones of her on Tommy and Rumble.

wade moore

12-18-2006, 02:31 PM

I was referring to his momma.....they used to play some hilarious ones of her on Tommy and Rumble.

Oh, yes, INDEED.

VPI97

12-18-2006, 02:32 PM

That conviction was also thrown out on appeal.

LOL...you do know why, right?

...and I don't mean the 'read between the lines' reason...I mean the reason that was stated on the appeal.

Crapshoot

12-18-2006, 02:35 PM

Probably because of that whole thing where he was convicted of a felony when he helped incite a race riot and attacked a bunch of people (including two women).

You mean the one the Virginia court of appeals overturned for lack of evidence? Innocent until proven Guilty.. except when I don't like the guy.

Pumpy Tudors

12-18-2006, 02:39 PM

Just for the record, there are lots of white thugs in the NBA out there, and there have been for years. Hell, 15 years ago, if a similar fight had occurred, Jack Haley would've been out there whipping the shit out of somebody with a towel. Kurt Rambis would've thrown his glasses at somebody, too.

Seriously, I actually blame all this thug shit on Rex Chapman.

VPI97

12-18-2006, 02:39 PM

You mean the one the Virginia court of appeals overturned for lack of evidence? Innocent until proven Guilty.. except when I don't like the guy.

Although the evidence would have been sufficient to prove
individual assaultive conduct, it was insufficient to prove
beyond a reasonable doubt that Iverson acted as part of a mob.
Therefore, the convictions are reversed and the case is remanded
to the circuit court for such further action as the Commonwealth
may be advised.

The conviction for "maiming by mob' was overturned because while they could prove he tried to decapitate a couple women with a folding chair, they couldn't prove he did it while he was "part of a mob'.

Yeah...he's not a thug.

st.cronin

12-18-2006, 02:44 PM

Seriously, I actually blame all this thug shit on Rex Chapman.

I always got him confused with Rex Walters.

CU Tiger

12-18-2006, 03:03 PM

Wait a minute..decpitating is nothing.

Iverson threw his wife out in the snow, naked.
Thats O G thug style at its best.

Slap tha Ho
Put tha bitch in tha sno

Pumpy Tudors

12-18-2006, 03:06 PM

I always got him confused with Rex Walters.
Good point. I might have meant Rex Walters.

Pumpy Tudors

12-18-2006, 03:10 PM

what better, rex chapman or rex walters

thanks

LloydLungs

12-18-2006, 03:13 PM

So the Hornets are missing a thug? I nominate Peja Stojakovic. He's got a sort of a thug look.;)

I was only counting guys that have played more than 10 games the past two seasons.

I'm not bitter.

LloydLungs

12-18-2006, 03:15 PM

Good point. I might have meant Rex Walters.

The head coach at Florida Atlantic is a thug??!? Cool, they're coming to the Chamber of Horrors to play UNO in two weeks.

Yes, I have managed to connect it all back to UNO. Really wasn't that difficult either.

Pumpy Tudors

12-18-2006, 03:30 PM

The head coach at Florida Atlantic is a thug??!? Cool, they're coming to the Chamber of Horrors to play UNO in two weeks.

Yes, I have managed to connect it all back to UNO. Really wasn't that difficult either.
January 4, baby! I have the schedule up on my wall at work.

You, sir, are The Man.

Subby

12-18-2006, 03:43 PM

January 4, baby! I have the schedule up on my wall at work.

You, sir, are The Man.SHUT YOUR MOUTH THUG!!!111 :mad:

bhlloy

12-18-2006, 03:49 PM

spleen1015

12-18-2006, 04:00 PM

SHUT YOUR MOUTH THUG!!!111 :mad:

I was waiting for someone else to call Pimpy a thug. I couldn't be first.

Pumpy Tudors

12-18-2006, 04:30 PM

Maybe I really am an assblack. :(

Atocep

12-18-2006, 04:31 PM

Can anyone explain how Thomas didn't get suspended for telling his players to go after one of the Nuggets starters? Even the NHL will suspend or fine coaches for deliberate headhunting late in a game. Seems like Stern had a great chance to send an even bigger message and struck out.

Unless he figures that the biggest punishment possible for the Knicks is to leave Thomas in charge for as many games as he can. Which is probably true come to think of it.

I read that there's a seperate investigation to see exactly what Thomas told his players. They have the tape of him telling Carmelo not to go in the paint, but I would think they'd need more proof than that to issue a suspension.

Karlifornia

12-18-2006, 04:33 PM

This is sports. It's testosterone mixed in with high-stakes competition. The only way to increase the likelihood of people fighting would be to let the players drink before games.

It happens in all sports. Oh, and who says it only spills into the crowd in NBA games? What about Rangers pitcher Frank Francisco throwing a chair and breaking a (female) fan's nose at Oakland Colesium? What about Chad Kreuter fighting with that Cubs fan? What NBA teams do they play on again?

To say that this is just the NBA's problem is asinine.

dime

12-18-2006, 05:27 PM

...
Terrell Owens has what I call an "NBA Attitude", and if he was an NBA player, I firmly believe he would be considered a regular player when it comes to his attitude and demeanor. In the NFL, he's consider by most the "anti-NFL"; someone who has a me-first attitude, no team skills and a poor attitude.
...

just stop talking for awhile, champ.

WVUFAN

12-18-2006, 05:49 PM

What off the field stuff are you talking about? The incidents I referenced (TO spitting, Vick flipping off the fans and the guy stepping on someone's face) all happened on the field as did this fight. Are you talking about off the field incidents like murdering people and hiding in the trunk of a car? Oh wait, that wasn't the NBA. Guess what, there are "thugs" off the field in the NFL too. And on the helmet and jersey covering the cornrows and tats - if JIMG agrees with me on the effect of that then you know its truth :)

I had this big long paragraph I was typing up trying to refute this, and I decided as I was typing this up to turn on ESPN, and NFL Countdown is on right now.

So as I'm finishing up this long sentence I find myself watching some of the highlights from the games yesterday. I then pause and realize that, really, the uniforms do make a difference. I honestly never made that connection before, and when you made the statement earlier I dismissed it before, quite honestly, it sounded silly to me that something like that could affect my opinion of a completely different sport like I does.

I'll have to sit down and watch an NBA game and see if the reason why I dislike the sport is due to the players or just my incorrect perceptions.

So I'll do that, and until I do, I'll shut up about things I evidently don't know anything about.

Groundhog

12-18-2006, 05:59 PM

Uh...well look at the players referenced in the posts before this one. Mark Eaton, Chuck Nevitt...yeah those guys were the pillers of athleticism. The NBA game is much quicker and has guys on average with far greater athletic abilities (not necessarily greater basketball skill or ability though) than it did back in the 80s. Sure there were great athletes back then but there were also far more guys who today would be considered less athletic than the guys who play now.

Indeed. I was watching one of the Bulls-Suns finals games a few months ago, and it really jolted my memory on this issue. Back then I didn't notice it as much, but boy, some of the guys Phoenix and Chicago had on the court would not survive in today's NBA. As soon as Jordan beat his man one on one he could basically just stroll right past the next 2 defenders, who reacted to his drive about 3 seconds too late. And this was not even the 80s.

Groundhog

12-18-2006, 06:05 PM

I had this big long paragraph I was typing up trying to refute this, and I decided as I was typing this up to turn on ESPN, and NFL Countdown is on right now.

So as I'm finishing up this long sentence I find myself watching some of the highlights from the games yesterday. I then pause and realize that, really, the uniforms do make a difference. I honestly never made that connection before, and when you made the statement earlier I dismissed it before, quite honestly, it sounded silly to me that something like that could affect my opinion of a completely different sport like I does.

I'll have to sit down and watch an NBA game and see if the reason why I dislike the sport is due to the players or just my incorrect perceptions.

So I'll do that, and until I do, I'll shut up about things I evidently don't know anything about.

The uniforms make a difference, and so do the amount of players on each team. With only 15 players (and only 7 or 8 who are "names" usually) per roster, each player is instantly in more of a spotlight than that backup OLB for your local football team who got in to a pub brawl on the weekend.

There definately are thugs in the NBA, and guys who I detest for their attitude and lack of professionalism (Nate Robinson springs to mind instantly), but there are also lots of good guys too, both on the court and off. I personally don't mind players showing fire and emotion on the court, even if it leads to punches being thrown from time to time (usually only once or twice a season, if that). It's just a shame in some respects that the fans sit so close to the court and as a result sometimes it spills over to them.

molson

12-18-2006, 07:58 PM

Come on now, there's a laundry list much longer than that.

It's not as long as the perception (and the bowling alley thing was almost 15 years ago for christ's sake).

He ain't an angel. But if AI's the absolute worst of the NBA, the league's in pretty damn good shape.

But my point wasn't to defend AI (though his bad reputation FAR outweighs reality), but to try to understand why the NBA has this image. Nobody's presented any evidence that it's any worse than any other league, at any other time. Instead, people are running off at mouth, expressing the first thing that comes to their minds about the league. I just find it very interesting how these opinions are so strong, even though they're based solely on gut impressions. What are these gut impressions based on? The NBA isn't covered nearly as much as other leagues anymore, but the news that does get out is sticking with certain people in intense, illogical ways.

Basically, if it were possible to expose people to the same amount of negative information about the NBA, NFL, and MLB, (and there is far more negative information about the latter two), I believe the NBA would still have the worst reputation. Simply because it's league is the youngest, the blackest, the most connected to urban black culture and hip hop. Stern realizes this, which is why he's resorted to superficial remedies like dress codes.

I know all that didn't make much sense, I just find this entire thread really troubling, and I've been trying to sort out why.

wade moore

12-18-2006, 09:35 PM

I agree with all of your points, I just think that AI is a bad example for making your point, that's all. He's not the worst out there, but he's not a standard you want to hold people up against either.

CU Tiger

12-19-2006, 07:58 AM

The one point that has bothered me throughout this is the ascertation that it is wrong of us to have a problem with hiphop culture ingling with the NBA.

I think in this vain we are trying to turn an issue racial that otherwise doesnt need to be. I think an NBA player coming to the arena (his office) in "Hip Hop apparel" is unprofessional, yes I do. I also think showing up in bib overalls, with a hayseed in your mouth is unprofessional, or you can insert any other stereo tyoe you want here.

Think of it this way. Doctor's wear scrubs often in a hspital, so in theory it shoulddnt matter what they show up to work in. If my doctor comes strrolling in in beach shorts and flip flops, Im having second thoughts.

molson

12-19-2006, 09:16 AM

I think in this vain we are trying to turn an issue racial that otherwise doesnt need to be. I think an NBA player coming to the arena (his office) in "Hip Hop apparel" is unprofessional, yes I do. I also think showing up in bib overalls, with a hayseed in your mouth is unprofessional, or you can insert any other stereo tyoe you want here.

As far as I know, the NFL, MLB, and NHL don't have off-the-field dress codes, (and if there are, we certainly don't hear about them). The NBA is the only league where we care what the players wear when they AREN'T playing.

Pumpy Tudors

12-19-2006, 09:42 AM

As far as I know, the NFL, MLB, and NHL don't have off-the-field dress codes, (and if there are, we certainly don't hear about them). The NBA is the only league where we care what the players wear when they AREN'T playing.
I used to argue against the NBA dress code, but I've completely changed my mind on it. I'm not completely for it, but I don't have a problem with it either.

For the record, the NHL does have a dress code, and many minor-league hockey leagues and clubs have dress codes, too. The NFL and MLB leave it up to each individual team. (source: the sidebar at hxxp://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=364190)

You don't hear about these dress codes because you don't have many players complaining about them. Honestly, I've never heard about any players in those other leagues complaining about the dress code. The only dress code complaint I've heard was from Mike Nolan, coach of the 49ers, and most of us know that that's because the NFL wasn't allowing him to wear a suit on the sidelines. There have been other situations like Peyton Manning and his black shoes or Jake Plummer and his Pat Tillman sticker, but those are completely different from the NBA players complaining about wearing business-casual clothing.

The NBA dress code isn't a bad thing. Again, I had argued against it at one time, but I see it another way now. Asking them to wear collared shirts or sportcoats is not taking anybody's identity away, and that's what the players complained about. Nobody's telling them what to wear when they're out with friends or sitting at home. Some of them just don't want to dress like they're going to work. Does this make them thugs? No, but it does make them appear to be acting like babies.

To tie this back to the post I'm quoting, most people don't care what the players wear when they're at a family reunion or a concert or a restaurant. When they're on the job, whether it's on the team plane or in the locker room or in the stands, it's a completely different story. Personally, I don't care if they wear clown suits, but I see where the league is coming from with the dress code, and I don't have any problem with it.

st.cronin

12-19-2006, 09:45 AM

You know who else I could never keep straight?

Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro.

Pumpy Tudors

12-19-2006, 09:48 AM

You know who else I could never keep straight?

Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro.
I had the same problem with Vinnie Johnson and Vinny Del Negro.

st.cronin

12-19-2006, 09:52 AM

I had the same problem with Vinnie Johnson and Vinny Del Negro.

If Vinnie Johnson was the microwave, what was Vinny del Negro? A thermos?

CU Tiger

12-19-2006, 11:29 AM

Avery Johnson a.k.a Vinny de Negro
:eek:

Thats taking racial undertones to a WHOLE new level...:D

miami_fan

12-19-2006, 12:30 PM

I used to argue against the NBA dress code, but I've completely changed my mind on it. I'm not completely for it, but I don't have a problem with it either.

For the record, the NHL does have a dress code, and many minor-league hockey leagues and clubs have dress codes, too. The NFL and MLB leave it up to each individual team. (source: the sidebar at hxxp://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=364190)

You don't hear about these dress codes because you don't have many players complaining about them. Honestly, I've never heard about any players in those other leagues complaining about the dress code. The only dress code complaint I've heard was from Mike Nolan, coach of the 49ers, and most of us know that that's because the NFL wasn't allowing him to wear a suit on the sidelines. There have been other situations like Peyton Manning and his black shoes or Jake Plummer and his Pat Tillman sticker, but those are completely different from the NBA players complaining about wearing business-casual clothing.

The NBA dress code isn't a bad thing. Again, I had argued against it at one time, but I see it another way now. Asking them to wear collared shirts or sportcoats is not taking anybody's identity away, and that's what the players complained about. Nobody's telling them what to wear when they're out with friends or sitting at home. Some of them just don't want to dress like they're going to work. Does this make them thugs? No, but it does make them appear to be acting like babies.

To tie this back to the post I'm quoting, most people don't care what the players wear when they're at a family reunion or a concert or a restaurant. When they're on the job, whether it's on the team plane or in the locker room or in the stands, it's a completely different story. Personally, I don't care if they wear clown suits, but I see where the league is coming from with the dress code, and I don't have any problem with it.

I am not going to rehash the whole dress code debate. My problem is that there is a different (double?) standard. If not wearing a collared shirt to the game makes you unprofessional and/or a thug if you are a basketball player, then not wearing a collared shirt to the game makes you unprofessional if you are a football player, a hockey player etc. If a small percentage of basketball players getting into trouble makes the NBA a "league full of thugs", then a small percentage of football/hockey/soccer/baseball players getting into trouble should make their leagues equally "full of thugs". I don't believe that's the case.

molson

12-19-2006, 12:41 PM

I am not going to rehash the whole dress code debate. My problem is that there is a different (double?) standard. If not wearing a collared shirt to the game makes you unprofessional and/or a thug if you are a basketball player, then not wearing a collared shirt to the game makes you unprofessional if you are a football player, a hockey player etc. If a small percentage of basketball players getting into trouble makes the NBA a "league full of thugs", then a small percentage of football/hockey/soccer/baseball players getting into trouble should make their leagues equally "full of thugs". I don't believe that's the case.

Yup. And I find it impossible to believe that young NHL players aren't complaining about whatever dress code they adhere to - it's just not reported as "news", since NHL players aren't otherwise perceived as "troublemakers".

TroyF

12-19-2006, 01:19 PM

Nothing is going to happen to Thomas, despite him calling for the hit. Somehow Robinson and JR get the same penalty, when Robinson was the guy who escalated the situation to the point it went to. And Collins gets 6 games after a second consecutive night where he gave someone a flagrant in the closing seconds of a Knicks loss.

Melo deserved his punishment (though I think 10 would have been a hell of a lot more fair). Thomas walks away scot-free for ordering the hit.

Just like at The Palace, the NBA's stance is that it's just fine to start the riot, just don't respond to it.

At least the national media has pretty much to a person said that Melo's punishment is unacceptable, especially with Thomas not suffering any consequence for his actions.

The funniest thing to me is the 500k fine for the two teams. Wow, that's gonna be a crusher there. Lets see, Melo loses 600k+ in salary over the next five weeks. I wonder where the Nuggets are coming up with the 500k to pay the league. . .