Jesus....

[nfg22]

So basically this will probably be controversial but I dont mean it that way. If you dont want this then just ignore it please. I am not doing this because of Christmas or X-mas or whatever you want to call it. I am doing this because I was reading some of my old PM's from back in the day with the Jesus:Superping thread. I realized that people in this world need the salvation of Jesus. I know people might get mad, maybe ill get banned, but the fact is I am not doing this for those reasons. I need to tell you the gospel.

Everyone has sinned, and well all fall short of the glory of God. This I am sure most of you have heard. Yet this is serious. Whether you think Im just a nut or a fanatic that doesnt matter. Just because you think this is not true does not make it so. It is truth. I could quote the Bible but if you dont believe in Christ and havent given Him lordship then you wouldnt believe anyways. Since you have fallen short the anger of God rests upon you. This is a harsh truth that does not usually get preached but it is true. In a pradoxical fashion, which means that it seems like a contradiction but it is not, God loves you and wants to redeem you from this anger. He sent His Son to be the sacrifice of sacrifices that whoever may believe in Him and what He did they might be saved. This results in belief, which results in a changed life for salvation not only in the future but now. This gives the chance to worship Him and to live free from sin. Sin will still happen, but you shall no longer be a slave to it. You will be a slave to God, who has done this work that you may live in Him and be zealous for good works abounding in faith.

Once again I did not write this to be a bigot or to piss anyone off but I did it to represent the truth. If that makes me a bigot then so the truth does. But I love and wish to bring this to you. Any questions I can be reached here, and if I am to get banned then I will take emails at [email protected].

[Logan]

Did Skydog accidentally log-in under his alt name?

[Rizon]

Jesus died of a barbiturate overdose on my bathroom floor five years ago.

[RendeR]

Its a great theory you have that this IS truth, however truth is in the heart of the believer and if someone doesn't BELIEVE as you do then your so called truth is meaningless to that person and has no validity to that person.

This is the hardest thing for any BELIEVER of ANY religion to learn to accept.

If someone does not BELIEVE as you do then no amount of preaching at them is going to mean anything. none of your beliefs have any direct effect on that person. YOU might believe it does, but that does not make it so, to quote your own arguement.

Its all well and fine for YOU to believe. Stop assuming that YOUR belief is the only one or even the right one. You believe it is, but that does not make it so.

[RendeR]

Jesus died of a barbiturate overdose on my bathroom floor five years ago.


He's talking about Jesus (jeez-us) not that drug running monkey f***er friend of yours Jesus (hey-soos)

[Pumpy Tudors]

GIT YR POPCORN RDY

[Logan]

Its all well and fine for YOU to believe. Stop assuming that YOUR belief is the only one or even the right one. You believe it is, but that does not make it so.

This is going to be my one serious post of this thread, then I'll continue being an idiot.

A few years ago, when I was at RU, a good friend of mine, who I've known since 1st grade, and who happens to be a very religious person (I believe he's Coptic Orthodox, being that his family is from Egypt), held the following conversation with me (a very unreligious Jew):

Him: I mean this with no disrespect, but what happens if you find out, upon your death, that everything you believe in is wrong?

Me: I don't know. I'll deal with it I guess. But what happens if you find out, upon your death, that everything YOU believe in is wrong?

Him: I'm not wrong.


That pretty much sums up my feelings on those types of people.

[korme]

crucifixed and all i got was this lousy t-shirt

[Young Drachma]

This will not end well.

[Maple Leafs]

This will not end well.
The beginning and middle won't be much to write home about either.

[Daimyo]

in before the lock

[JediKooter]

Pics please

[MikeVick7]

GIT YR POPCORN RDY
awesome.

[MacroGuru]

Wait a minute, so you are saying god is angry, we must deal with his anger by proving ourselves?

What about the plan of salvation that the lord has set forth for us to live our lives by? The one to follow as best as possible, knowing that as he has created man that there will be times that we stray from his path (Sin) and that we have the chance of repentence.

By providing us a plan of salvation, that would deny that god is angry and that he wants you to learn, grow, and become like him based upon his plan.

[Schmidty]

I will not read any of this thread, because it doesn't matter. I've heard it all, and I don't want to get involved in an intellectual debate about something that is totally unknowable and spiritual.

I grew up Calvinist, and although I now see the Arminianistic side, I still shade toward the sovereign face of God. And no, I don't want to get into a debate about predestination.

Anyway, it doesn't matter to me what people say about Jesus or God. I am not a moron, nor am I unintelligent; however, I know that the Holy Spirit is in your heart, or It is not. I can plant a seed, but I can't make a person believe.

I don't mind people slamming Jesus or God (I have even been known to make an innocent joke), because God is sovereign, and it doesn't matter if He is mocked. I mean, it does, but that's between Him and that person. He is the force of all of the natural world, but He is also the personal Creator of all beings.

He's God, and I'm not, so say what you will.

[Groundhog]

Whether you think Im just a nut or a fanatic that doesnt matter. Just because you think this is not true does not make it so. It is truth. I could quote the Bible but if you dont believe in Christ and havent given Him lordship then you wouldnt believe anyways.

And yet, because you think it's true, that makes it so?

And why even bother posting this at all? I could start a thread preaching Scientology dogma, Islamic dogma, Mithraic dogma, or any of the other thousands of religious dogma out there, and say exactly what you just said. And to a non-believer of whichever faith I chose to preach, it would be equally convincing (ie. not at all).


Once again I did not write this to be a bigot or to piss anyone off but I did it to represent the truth.

Thanks, but you succeeded to be both a bigot AND to piss people off. And if it's OK with you, I'll be the judge of what I consider to be "truth".


If that makes me a bigot then so the truth does. But I love and wish to bring this to you. Any questions I can be reached here, and if I am to get banned then I will take emails at [email protected].

Thanks for your "love", but I find posts like this very offensive and in future would just wish you keep it to yourself. I neither want nor need your religion. I have no problem with your religion nor the vast majority of those who follow it, but I do have a problem with you rubbing it in my face like I'm some kind of lost soul who desperately needs it in order to survive. This could not be further from the truth.

[molson]

That pretty much sums up my feelings on those types of people.

Ya, same here.

I don't believe in anything in particular, but don't claim I know all the answers. I could pretend to believe, but presumably, God could tell the difference. So I won't bother to fake it, even if Christians ask me to. If God created me, he created me a non-believer. Thus, if God created me, he sentenced me to hell before I was even born. Not much I can do about that.

[molson]

Once again I did not write this to be a bigot or to piss anyone off but I did it to represent the truth. If that makes me a bigot then so the truth does. But I love and wish to bring this to you. Any questions I can be reached here, and if I am to get banned then I will take emails at [email protected].

Not only are you a bigot, but you're actually holding yourself to be some kind of idol or prophet. "My name is nf22, my word is truth".

[Groundhog]

That pretty much sums up my feelings on those types of people.

I remember being in high school and having a discussion almost identical to this with a religious friend of mine. I asked him what would become of his faith if someone invented a time machine and travelled back to the time of Christ and either found that he never existed or that he was just an regular man.

My friend just said that it wouldn't happen. I asked him to just pretend it did happen, and he again said that Jesus did exist and was the son of god so it's not even worth discussing.

Obviously any athiest who went back in time and saw that Jesus DID exist, and that his miracles DID occur, would become an instant believer (if not a sympathetic one), yet If a believer travelled back and saw that it was a myth, I don't think even that would alter their faith.

It's this kind of thinking that really sort of freaks me out to be honest.

[Bad-example]

Worst Thread Ever Version 2363902.0

[Galaxy]

I remember being in high school and having a discussion almost identical to this with a religious friend of mine. I asked him what would become of his faith if someone invented a time machine and travelled back to the time of Christ and either found that he never existed or that he was just an regular man.

My friend just said that it wouldn't happen. I asked him to just pretend it did happen, and he again said that Jesus did exist and was the son of god so it's not even worth discussing.

Obviously any athiest who went back in time and saw that Jesus DID exist, and that his miracles DID occur, would become an instant believer (if not a sympathetic one), yet If a believer travelled back and saw that it was a myth, I don't think even that would alter their faith.

It's this kind of thinking that really sort of freaks me out to be honest.

Scary. What if Jesus already has returned? Everything is a belief. Until some superior being shows up, or until we die, we can only have believes.

[law90026]

I remember being in high school and having a discussion almost identical to this with a religious friend of mine. I asked him what would become of his faith if someone invented a time machine and travelled back to the time of Christ and either found that he never existed or that he was just an regular man.

My friend just said that it wouldn't happen. I asked him to just pretend it did happen, and he again said that Jesus did exist and was the son of god so it's not even worth discussing.

Obviously any athiest who went back in time and saw that Jesus DID exist, and that his miracles DID occur, would become an instant believer (if not a sympathetic one), yet If a believer travelled back and saw that it was a myth, I don't think even that would alter their faith.

It's this kind of thinking that really sort of freaks me out to be honest.

The difficulty with this argument is that a Christian can't think that way. If a Christian truly believes, this is a moot point and isn't worth discussing because a Christian would know/believe your scenario cannot be true. By conceding that he wouldn't believe in his faith anymore thereafter (which must be the logical conclusion from your scenario), it would be a lack of faith on his part. It simply isn't a fair argument to put forward in my opinion.

It's different for someone who doesn't believe and you show him conclusive evidence. You're essentially asking your friend to entertain the possibility that his faith is potentially false. Not sure if I've made any sense above but hopefully I have.

[MacroGuru]

The difficulty with this argument is that a Christian can't think that way. If a Christian truly believes, this is a moot point and isn't worth discussing because a Christian would know/believe your scenario cannot be true. By conceding that he wouldn't believe in his faith anymore thereafter (which must be the logical conclusion from your scenario), it would be a lack of faith on his part. It simply isn't a fair argument to put forward in my opinion.

It's different for someone who doesn't believe and you show him conclusive evidence. You're essentially asking your friend to entertain the possibility that his faith is potentially false. Not sure if I've made any sense above but hopefully I have.

Wait...based upon said argument, all christians are blind cattle, and therefore cannot think for themselves, challenge dogma, or scripture?

To me, the best kind of Christians are just that. Those who challenge, force thought, and look into all realms of their belief and others, not to blindly follow because it is set that way.

This is what makes me unpopular in Utah and the Mormon community. I challenge belief, rules, and laws created by the mormon church, although I converted over at the age of 18, I still studied all religion to ensure to me at the time, I was making an honest choice. Since then, I have grown up, seen and witnessed a lot, formulate another opinion and grown my belief in the best way possible, for myself.

My children are encouraged to create their own belief, and we do this by allowing them to experience all religion, and not tying them down to the one we both are.(were)

[nfg22]

Wait a minute, so you are saying god is angry, we must deal with his anger by proving ourselves?

What about the plan of salvation that the lord has set forth for us to live our lives by? The one to follow as best as possible, knowing that as he has created man that there will be times that we stray from his path (Sin) and that we have the chance of repentence.

By providing us a plan of salvation, that would deny that god is angry and that he wants you to learn, grow, and become like him based upon his plan.

Well basically you cant learn and grown when you are still in darkness. Until you accept the light and become of it you will not know it. It has nothing to do with proving yourself. God's anger is because of your sin, but upon acceptance His love redeems you. This is not proving yourself.

[nfg22]

And yet, because you think it's true, that makes it so?

And why even bother posting this at all? I could start a thread preaching Scientology dogma, Islamic dogma, Mithraic dogma, or any of the other thousands of religious dogma out there, and say exactly what you just said. And to a non-believer of whichever faith I chose to preach, it would be equally convincing (ie. not at all).



Thanks, but you succeeded to be both a bigot AND to piss people off. And if it's OK with you, I'll be the judge of what I consider to be "truth".



Thanks for your "love", but I find posts like this very offensive and in future would just wish you keep it to yourself. I neither want nor need your religion. I have no problem with your religion nor the vast majority of those who follow it, but I do have a problem with you rubbing it in my face like I'm some kind of lost soul who desperately needs it in order to survive. This could not be further from the truth.


Im not concerned that your pissed off. And yes I do recognize that you dont believe this is truth. It doesnt matter, it is. I dont preach this so you will like it, I preach because it is life to those who believe.

[MacroGuru]

Well basically you cant learn and grown when you are still in darkness. Until you accept the light and become of it you will not know it. It has nothing to do with proving yourself. God's anger is because of your sin, but upon acceptance His love redeems you. This is not proving yourself.

So to accept the light is to know and understand God is angry? My understanding is that god is angry with the Wicked every day and judges the righteous. However, your blanket statement states that god is always angry, regardless.

But in order to be righteous, you must follow gods plan, not just accept his love. His love is unconditional and the first step towards the path of righteous.

[nfg22]

So to accept the light is to know and understand God is angry? My understanding is that god is angry with the Wicked every day and judges the righteous. However, your blanket statement states that god is always angry, regardless.

But in order to be righteous, you must follow gods plan, not just accept his love. His love is unconditional and the first step towards the path of righteous.

I didnt mean God is always angry with everyone. Sorry I miss spoke. Basically God is angry at sin yet He loves sinners and wishes to give them a way to redeem and come back to Him for He desires to have them as His own again. This is remarked in the prodigal son. The father accepts lovingly, and yes just by accepting his love. The son who comes back is willingly coming back, repentant.

It is not because you have become perfect but because you realize you need God and wish to be perfect. It wont happen right away but it is a change of the heart, not of works. Yet the heart will result in works. Thank you for your serious question. I hope I have remedied it a little.

[nfg22]

Also I do not expect all of you to believe this to be truth. I dont expect you to just jump into this, but God does work in hearts. Also for those of you who say that saying things are true does not make converts, it sure has for centuries, and the Church still has converts

[JHandley]

I need to tell you the gospel.


This is the key phrase. It has nothing to do with us or our beliefs. You were struck, for whatever reason, to tell us the gospel. It's all about you.

[MacroGuru]

I didnt mean God is always angry with everyone. Sorry I miss spoke. Basically God is angry at sin yet He loves sinners and wishes to give them a way to redeem and come back to Him for He desires to have them as His own again. This is remarked in the prodigal son. The father accepts lovingly, and yes just by accepting his love. The son who comes back is willingly coming back, repentant.

It is not because you have become perfect but because you realize you need God and wish to be perfect. It wont happen right away but it is a change of the heart, not of works. Yet the heart will result in works. Thank you for your serious question. I hope I have remedied it a little.

My questions are to find out and dig into your viewpoint, find out why you think the way you do.

What I read into your writing is that we are basically saying the same thing, but in different ways.

[nfg22]

My questions are to find out and dig into your viewpoint, find out why you think the way you do.

What I read into your writing is that we are basically saying the same thing, but in different ways.

Maybe...but just dont think that it is or that I am saying it is by works alone or that God's anger is always burning against you...

[korme]

nfg22: Please let me fall onto you.

Deaf Ears: Ok.

[law90026]

Wait...based upon said argument, all christians are blind cattle, and therefore cannot think for themselves, challenge dogma, or scripture?

To me, the best kind of Christians are just that. Those who challenge, force thought, and look into all realms of their belief and others, not to blindly follow because it is set that way.

This is what makes me unpopular in Utah and the Mormon community. I challenge belief, rules, and laws created by the mormon church, although I converted over at the age of 18, I still studied all religion to ensure to me at the time, I was making an honest choice. Since then, I have grown up, seen and witnessed a lot, formulate another opinion and grown my belief in the best way possible, for myself.

My children are encouraged to create their own belief, and we do this by allowing them to experience all religion, and not tying them down to the one we both are.(were)

Perhaps to clarify. It's not a question of not challenging scripture or dogma.

However, the scenario put forward, i.e. Jesus never existing or being a normal man, challenges one of the fundamental basis of the Christian faith. If you accept that to be true, it's hard to fathom how you could consider yourself to be a Christian.

It's not blind acceptance to the faith. As an example, challenging an interpretation of the Bible is one thing; challenging the validity of the Bible is a separate issue, which is more akin to the hypothetical scenario put forward.

There is a difference between the two scenarios.

[SirFozzie]

You missed everything after the first word in the topic, nfg22.

Jesus.. Does not want nfg22 to alienate half the board with a half cocked attempt to preach "the truth".

[nfg22]

where is your basis for him not wanting me to alienate the board...honestly He said "I come not to bring peace but division" Speaking of His message. Also why is my attempt half cocked? Is it because what I say is not truth? Because then you are wrong, I know that doesnt stand up in intellect, but at the moment I am not arguing with intellect but with Spirit and Truth. Yet I can argue with intellect when neccesary as far as intellect can argue this.

Also please do not take any attitude in my statement...I promise I am not mad nor bitter....

[SirFozzie]

Since you have fallen short the anger of God rests upon you.

You will be a slave to God, who has done this work that you may live in Him and be zealous for good works abounding in faith.

Once again I did not write this to be a bigot or to piss anyone off but I did it to represent the truth. If that makes me a bigot then so the truth does.

and the #1 reason that I think you may piss off half the board.. you your self thought so as well!

I know people might get mad, maybe ill get banned, but the fact is I am not doing this for those reasons.

[nfg22]

I understand...I am not saying that I will make the board happy or that I will not alienate them. I understand they may become hardened to this truth. As the verse I quoted says. Yet this gospel is not for those who reject but those who accept. I am not happy nor do I desire that people get mad and reject, but I know it will happen and I cannot stop from preaching the truth because people will not accept. It must be preached.

[JHandley]

nfg22, how do you respond to spam?

[nfg22]

The food? I like it alot....the mail...I usually send 18000 tracts to the company.....Honestly I am just replying one, cause I am bored of cleaning my room for semester break and also because I hope that in some way a part of them is sincere and I can get through

[Tigercat]

This thread confuses me, and no spaghetti or stale bread based deity is helping me through it.

[JHandley]

I asked because you've spammed us. People worldwide have announced that all spam is a nuisance and react by instantly rejecting the offers therein.

There is nothing altruistic about your actions, whatsoever. Let's get that out of the way right now. Nothing. You wanted to preach to us, so you gave us an unsolicited preaching. You are exactly the same as the folks who want to sell me viagra at low, low prices.

If you really wanted to help lead people to Christ, you would seek and make yourself available to people who are looking for Christ. Do you honestly believe you would find someone on this board who has never heard of Christianity? There's no enlightening going on. You are offensive only in that you have choosen the worst possible avenue to do your evangelism. Spam preaching is not going to work on any but the weakest minds. Much like the folks who sell viagra for low, low prices.

Is that really what you want to do with your life? Spinning your wheels like this?

In some way, I do admire your courage and faith. It's the manifestation that's bothersome. Put your money where your mouth is and go to ministry where your message might do some good. It's not doing any good here except for the sense of purpose that you give yourself.

[nfg22]

Sir I thank you for the words. Honestly you speak wisdom. Yet it must be preached everywhere. I might be spamming and maybe everyone has heard it, yet I had to hear it for 19 years before I got it. it wasnt presented differently. I do pray and hope that I put my money where my mouth is, and by my standards I do. I evangelize in the streets and serve in soup kitchens just so I can preach, not as much as I should but I do it none the less.

Yet think of this. If we are truly fallen, I ask you to assume this, then how can we ever "want" to hear of a good God who we chosenly walked away from. We cant, it isnt about you wanting to hear but you needing to hear. Many of the people of Jesus' day thought He was blaspheming spam all over, but it simply isnt true. Thank you for your civil discussion.

[Brillig]

If God is angry, and anger is one of the seven deadly sins, then God is a sinner? This explains much.

[Butter]

If God is angry, and anger is one of the seven deadly sins, then God is a sinner? This explains much.

It's kinda like your former pot-head dad telling you not to smoke weed, eh?

[JPhillips]

Pride cometh before the fall

[Bee]

I enjoyed his video from youtube where he sings "I will survive" and then gets hit by the bus.

[sachmo71]

So basically this will probably be controversial but I dont mean it that way. If you dont want this then just ignore it please. I am not doing this because of Christmas or X-mas or whatever you want to call it. I am doing this because I was reading some of my old PM's from back in the day with the Jesus:Superping thread. I realized that people in this world need the salvation of Jesus. I know people might get mad, maybe ill get banned, but the fact is I am not doing this for those reasons. I need to tell you the gospel.



Why do you feel that you need to do this?

[ISiddiqui]

If God is angry, and anger is one of the seven deadly sins, then God is a sinner? This explains much.

Nice :D.

And as we all know, anger leads to the Dark Side. So is God Darth Vader? Inquiring minds what to know.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Nice :D.

And as we all know, anger leads to the Dark Side. So is God Darth Vader? Inquiring minds what to know.

I thought it was hate that led to the Dark Side?

[ISiddiqui]

I thought it was hate that led to the Dark Side?

Well anger leads to hate or something. Ask Yoda.

[Coffee Warlord]

See, all God does is generate angry talk on the board. He has obviously failed, and it's time for a change.

Therefore, I am hereby announcing my candidacy for God in the upcoming election. What will you get under my new reign as your deity? Glad you asked! First of all, His Most Holy Warlord fully believes in sacrificial yaks, free pics of half-naked and naked co-eds, Pumpy Pics (tm), and partaking in the Dual Sacraments of Coffee and Guinness.

Other than that, just shoot up a prayer to His Most Holy Warlord every now and again and I'll make sure ya have an absolutely badass suite in the afterlife.

CW for God. Vote early, vote often.

[KWhit]

Now Yoda's a guy I could get behind. This God character, I'm not so sure. He sounds kind of uptight - what with all the anger and this "everyone has sinned" crap. My daughter is 6 months old. She's pooped her pants a few times, but I don't know if I'd call that a sin!?

[DanGarion]

Oh this wasn't a parody thread?

[Logan]

It's different for someone who doesn't believe and you show him conclusive evidence. You're essentially asking your friend to entertain the possibility that his faith is potentially false. Not sure if I've made any sense above but hopefully I have.

I understand what you mean, and it's exactly what my issue is. He can question me, but I can't question him back? Give me a fuckin break.

[BrianD]

See, all God does is generate angry talk on the board. He has obviously failed, and it's time for a change.

Therefore, I am hereby announcing my candidacy for God in the upcoming election. What will you get under my new reign as your deity? Glad you asked! First of all, His Most Holy Warlord fully believes in sacrificial yaks, free pics of half-naked and naked co-eds, Pumpy Pics (tm), and partaking in the Dual Sacraments of Coffee and Guinness.

Other than that, just shoot up a prayer to His Most Holy Warlord every now and again and I'll make sure ya have an absolutely badass suite in the afterlife.

CW for God. Vote early, vote often.

You had me at Guinness.

Vote Coffee Warlord

[Pumpy Tudors]

What's that about half-naked and naked Pumpy Pics (tm)?

[Coffee Warlord]

What's that about half-naked and naked Pumpy Pics (tm)?

No no. Pics of women shall be naked and half-naked. Pics of Pumpy (tm) shall be wearing the Holy Robes of the New Church of Warlordia.

[John Galt]

He told people to eat his body and drink his blood
That's so cool
Jesus was so cool
But then some people got jealous of how cool he was
So they killed him
But then he rose from the dead
He rose from the dead, danced around
Then went up to heaven
I mean, that's so cool
Jesus was way cool

No wonder there are so many Christians

[Franklinnoble]

Wow... dude's just trying to share his faith, and you all are ready to burn him at the stake.

Merry freakin' Christmas, everybody.

[flere-imsaho]

Wow... dude's just trying to share his faith,

By his own admission, he is not just sharing his faith, but is evangelizing. He is also, through context, criticising the life choices of those who don't share his view.

There is a subtle, but important, distinction here.

Edit: Having said that, I'm not offended by his post, nor do I have a problem with him making a post like this here. Generally-speaking, as long as he (or anyone else like him) doesn't directly affect my personal liberties in pursuit of his evangelical agenda, he can say what he wants.

[nfg22]

By his own admission, he is not just sharing his faith, but is evangelizing. He is also, through context, criticising the life choices of those who don't share his view.

There is a subtle, but important, distinction here.

You speak truth. problem is you cant hold to a Christian view, well to a real Christian view and not critisize those who dont, because it is a one way belief. Althoygh I cant make anyone believe all I can do is say what the truth is.

[Coffee Warlord]

You speak truth. problem is you cant hold to a Christian view, well to a real Christian view and not critisize those who dont, because it is a one way belief. Althoygh I cant make anyone believe all I can do is say what the truth is.

Yep, that whole understanding and acceptance thing can just be thrown right out the fucking window, eh?

Reaffirmation of why I despise formal religions right there.

[nfg22]

Yep, that whole understanding and acceptance thing can just be thrown right out the fucking window, eh?

Reaffirmation of why I despise formal religions right there.

Its kinda like gravity tho...whether you believe you will fall or not, you do.

[law90026]

I understand what you mean, and it's exactly what my issue is. He can question me, but I can't question him back? Give me a fuckin break.

This ... is a fair point to make. Being a former non-believer, I know exactly where you are coming from.

I guess I come from a more moderate approach. If you want to believe, I would help .. but I would also leave you the hell alone if you let me know that's not the path you want to take. Some Christians of course take evangelism to a whole different level. Whether that's right or wrong .. I guess it's not always for us to judge?

[Franklinnoble]

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

So, basically, you guys aren't discouraging him or anything.

If you really think you've lived a sin-free life, then by all means, go ahead and flame him for pointing out your need for salvation. But we all know sin is wrong. We all know it's wrong to lie, steal, and hate. Maybe instead of lashing out at a guy who's trying to share the Gospel, you should instead think about why we're all hard-wired with this thing called a conscience, and examine the truth of it instead.

[nfg22]

This ... is a fair point to make. Being a former non-believer, I know exactly where you are coming from.

I guess I come from a more moderate approach. If you want to believe, I would help .. but I would also leave you the hell alone if you let me know that's not the path you want to take. Some Christians of course take evangelism to a whole different level. Whether that's right or wrong .. I guess it's not always for us to judge?

Depends if you believe in scripture. In the bible it says, "I judge those not of us but I judge those who are us."

I cant judge those out of the church for oing wrong things because they dont believe, how can I expect them to not sin until they believe. But those in the church we can judge because they live by our standard.

[Toddzilla]

Whomever edited the first post gets a beer on me next time I see him/her.

Lawl-a-licious.

[flere-imsaho]

Also for those of you who say that saying things are true does not make converts, it sure has for centuries, and the Church still has converts

Historically, the number of people converted to Christianity either through conquest or through the Christian missionaries' provision of a better material life outnumbers those converted by a conscious decision to believe.

You speak truth. problem is you cant hold to a Christian view, well to a real Christian view and not critisize those who dont,

Really? Because isn't this exactly what Jesus himself did? He may have criticized sins, but his story is generally one of love and acceptance.

Its kinda like gravity tho...whether you believe you will fall or not, you do.

Except for, you know, that whole thing about empirical provability.

[Toddzilla]

http://noun.oike.ca/images/fsm.jpg

[JS19]

Nobody fucks with DE JESUS.....little Big Lebowski for ya....on another note, it's guys like this that give you religous folk a bad name.

[Toddzilla]

http://www.redrag.net/uploads/spagmonstergame.jpg

[JonInMiddleGA]

This will not end well.

Easiest.
Prediction.
Ever.

[Toddzilla]

http://www.inkycircus.com/photos/uncategorized/fsm_1.jpg

[JS19]

I should change that, not a bad name, but guys like this make guys like me think that all these religous people aren't all there in the head. And again, I should say not all religous people, bc i'm sure many of you are, but probably don't take it like this guy does.

[Bee]

Could Jesus have walked on water if there was a conveyer belt moving in the opposite direction at the same speed?

edit: Assuming he's on roller skates with free-moving wheels of course.

edit2: And wearing one of those aerodynamic skater hats.

[Toddzilla]

Ping: Brillig - Clean up needed in thread, please...

[Franklinnoble]

Really? Because isn't this exactly what Jesus himself did? He may have criticized sins, but his story is generally one of love and acceptance.


Dude... don't act like you know Jesus if you've never actually read the Bible.

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

[Butter]

Maybe instead of lashing out at a guy who's trying to share the Gospel, you should instead think about why we're all hard-wired with this thing called a conscience, and examine the truth of it instead.

Maybe instead of trying to convert everybody, you COULD LEAVE US NON-BELIEVERS THE FUCK ALONE.

We sure have missed your brand of self-righteousness lately, FN. Thank goodness for this thread.

[Butter]

To clarify, I don't think anyone has a problem with a religious discussion here, or even a discussion about Christianity and its tenets.

It's when someone comes on and says YOU ARE A SINNER AND YOU NEED SAVED that I get to say: fuck off.

[Toddzilla]

Dude... don't act like you know Jesus if you've never actually read the Bible.Dude...don't act like you know Jesus even if you have read the Bible.

[Franklinnoble]

Maybe instead of trying to convert everybody, you COULD LEAVE US NON-BELIEVERS THE FUCK ALONE.

We sure have missed your brand of self-righteousness lately, FN. Thank goodness for this thread.

Dude... seriously... you need to relax a bit. I'm not saying I'm any better than you. In the words of Paul the Apostle, I'm chief amongst sinners around here.

[nfg22]

Historically, the number of people converted to Christianity either through conquest or through the Christian missionaries' provision of a better material life outnumbers those converted by a conscious decision to believe.



Really? Because isn't this exactly what Jesus himself did? He may have criticized sins, but his story is generally one of love and acceptance.



Except for, you know, that whole thing about empirical provability.


yes many people have been converted for a better life and such things but that doesnt mean its false.

I am trying to love people by preaching the same gospel Jesus did, as he said "repent and believe for the kingdom of God is near."

Last....I dont know what that means but the fact is if all of you could see the truth you would be in the truth cause you would know its truth, but your blind, only God can open your eyes.

[John Galt]

the fact is if all of you could see the truth you would be in the truth cause you would know its truth

Whoa. You just blew my mind.

[Bee]

Whoa. You just blew my mind.
Ain't that the truth.

[JediKooter]

I like Yoda, the man is never angry. Oh he'll get disapointed every now and then, for example, when some punk kid off of some backwater twin sunned planet calls his home a slimey mudhole, but, Yoda knows he's just some punk kid and leaves it at that. No need to preach, no need to make him feel like he's lost. Yoda brings the punk kid into his home, shares his food with him, reunites him with Obi Wan and then agrees to train him.....for free!!

Some may say that he did get angry once, when he found out what Anakin had done in the Jedi temple. He charged Obi Wan with killing Anakin. That was not out of anger, it was for the common good of the entire galaxy. It was something that had to be done, plain and simple. No anger needed.

See, Yoda had the ability to think beyond himself and knew the galaxy did not revolve around him. Rather he was part of the galaxy, a cog you might say, that could enfluence people and other things around him. Yet, he had no worshippers. He had no fans. He had no: WWYD bumper stickers. He was simply, Yoda, Jedi Master.....Saving one punk kid at a time.

[Pumpy Tudors]

This is the greatest thread in the history of history.

[korme]

The reason I am not into faith is that at some point I got tired of people shoving it down my throat.

[Logan]

Whomever edited the first post gets a beer on me next time I see him/her.

Lawl-a-licious.

Appreciate this post, as I had no idea that happened :).

[ISiddiqui]

Yoda for God! The current God isn't doing such a good job, what with all the hatred and wars and murder and stuff. We should fire him. Maybe we can get The Donald to do it. It'd get some great ratings.

[Franklinnoble]

The reason I am not into faith is that at some point I got tired of people shoving it down my throat.

Nobody's shoving it down anyone's throat here. If you think nfg is a lunatic, and you don't want to hear what he has to say, just ignore him.

That is, unless someone's sitting next to you with a gun to your head saying "Click that thread or die, Shorty." Then, yeah, that's a little fanatical.

[ISiddiqui]

Man, I must be slipping, I forgot about this until a few seconds ago:

Pedro Cerrano (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0371660/): Bats, they are sick. I cannot hit curveball. Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. I ask Jobu to come, take fear from bats. I offer him cigar, rum. He will come.
Eddie Harris (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0743304/): You know you might think about taking Jesus Christ as your savior instead of fooling around with all this stuff.
Roger Dorn (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000929/): Shit, Harris.
Pedro Cerrano (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0371660/): Jesus, I like him very much, but he no help with curveball.
Eddie Harris (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0743304/): You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?

[John Galt]

Nobody's shoving down anyone's throat here. That's the thing. If you think nfg is a lunatic, and you don't want to hear what he has to say, just ignore him.

That is, unless someone's sitting next to you with a gun to your head saying "Click that thread or die, Shorty." Then, yeah, that's a little fanatical.

While no one is literally shoving it down Shorty's throat, no one is literally "ready to burn [nfg22] at the stake (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1340417&postcount=59)" either. ;)

I stand by my earlier quote from King Missile - Jesus was way cool.

[cartman]

That is, unless someone's sitting next to you with a gun to your head saying "Click that thread or die, Shorty." Then, yeah, that's a little fanatical.

Some saying that unless you live your life according to their interpretation of a religious text, they are doomed in the afterlife isn't fanatical?

If the Bible was so clear on the correct path to take, why are there so many offshoots of Christianity?

[law90026]

Some saying that unless you live your life according to their interpretation of a religious text, they are doomed in the afterlife isn't fanatical?

If the Bible was so clear on the correct path to take, why are there so many offshoots of Christianity?

It's what a faith does .. it states what it states. The same way a Taoist believes in 18 levels of hell, the same way a Buddhist believes in Karma and reincarnation, the same way a Muslim believes in their version of heaven, the same way a Hindu believes in their own pantheon and heaven ... that's what faith is ...

And as for the different "offshoots" of Christianity .. at least from the Methodist church I'm from, there's no right or wrong "offshoot". They have slightly different approaches to things but the fundamental basis is still the same,

[JHandley]

Wow... dude's just trying to share his faith, and you all are ready to burn him at the stake.

Merry freakin' Christmas, everybody.

Just like the people who want to sell me low-priced V1agra. As I said earlier, what he's doing is not altruistic. It's purely selfish. He wanted to share his faith. We didn't ask for it. The way I know this is because he said so himself "I need to tell you the gospel"

The people responding aren't trying to burn him at the stake, they're trying to opt-out of his spam.

[ISiddiqui]

Why can't we all get along folks!

http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/fsmcard.jpg

He wants us to be happy!!

[nfg22]

Just like the people who want to sell me low-priced V1agra. As I said earlier, what he's doing is not altruistic. It's purely selfish. He wanted to share his faith. We didn't ask for it. The way I know this is because he said so himself "I need to tell you the gospel"

The people responding aren't trying to burn him at the stake, they're trying to opt-out of his spam.

Thats assuming that God isnt true and He didnt send his workers to preach. So my need, yes I am not doing it for you, but I could very well be doing it for the God you say doesnt exist...anyways call me selfish call me whatever...just believe the truth.

[Bisbo]

Will Self has a great new book out, called "The Book of Dave" - its about how a post-disaster society in the future finds a diary written by Dave, a London taxi driver, and accept it as scripture. They sound like our friend who started this post.

I always enjoy dialogue with the deeply religious, because it is fascinating to see what makes them tick. I am not offended by preaching per se; what is upsetting, though, is the inflexible certainty of their own beliefs, and the outright rejection of everyone else's. That's why the old chestnut - that more people have been killed in the name of religion than anything else - is true, and that's what makes all forms of this type of religion abhorrent.

[sachmo71]

They see Franklin rollin'
They hatin'
Patrollin'
And tryin to catch him ridin ironical.

[Telle]

Why can't we all get along folks!

http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/fsmcard.jpg

He wants us to be happy!!


Hmmm.. I'd be more impressed by one with oregano being sprinkled that said "Seasoning Greetings" ..but that's just me.

[John Galt]

They see Franklin rollin'
They hatin'
Patrollin'
And tryin to catch him ridin ironical.

:D

[Toddzilla]

I stand by my earlier quote from King Missile - Jesus was way cool.Did he have a Detachable Penis?

[DanGarion]

I'm still confused this isn't a parody thread?

[Raiders Army]

It must just be me, but I think the best way to convert people into non-believers isn't by posting a message on a Football Text-Sim message board. I'm guessing it didn't work at the Maddenmania message boards.

Oh, and maybe god could give you an apostrophe key for Christmas. It doesn't seem like you use it nfg. BTW, what's your name mean? Not For God?

[RendeR]

Evangelism is the highest form of pride and ego. "You do not believe therefore I must help you to believe because MY belief is the only truth"

Pride is a sin, hence Evangelism is also a sin. Sinning to bring people to God sounds rather evil to me. Jeezus would not approve methinks.

[RendeR]

DOLA: Welcome back Frank, missed your unique form of self-indulgence.

[DanGarion]

BTW, what's your name mean? Not For God?
I always figured it was for New Found Glory, the band.

[headtrauma]

Is it wrong to spank it to this thread?

Please advise.

[RendeR]

Is it wrong to spank it to this thread?

Please advise.

According to most christians I've talked to "spanking it" is a sin, so yes indeed, it would be wrong , at least to those people.

[Telle]

According to most christians I've talked to "spanking it" is a sin, so yes indeed, it would be wrong , at least to those people.

I'm not sure the Flying Spaghetti Monster would approve either.. since then it wouldn't be a "noodly appendage".

[JediKooter]

I'm not sure the Flying Spaghetti Monster would approve either.. since then it wouldn't be a "noodly appendage".

It would be eventually.

[RendeR]

I'm not sure the Flying Spaghetti Monster would approve either.. since then it wouldn't be a "noodly appendage".


I just want to say here in the public forum:


I love my wife. =)

[dbd1963]

Earth is a reform school for incorrigible spirits. If you are here, you are already in trouble..

I'm afraid, if we don't all straighten up soon, it's going to be DETENTION for the lot of us.

I learned all this from that holy work, The Breakfast Club.

[DanGarion]

According to most christians I've talked to "spanking it" is a sin, so yes indeed, it would be wrong , at least to those people.
I'm Christian, and I don't believe it's a sin.

[sabotai]

http://www.irregardlessproductions.com/WhereIsYourGodNow.jpg

[dbd1963]

It's a SIN!?!?!?!??!

[DolphinFan1]

I haven't read this whole thread. Just the 1st three pages. I don't have a problem with this, as I am a born again Christian, just with how it was presented.
If he wanted to get a message across at Christmas time then it should have been something like this.
If it wasn't for God giving us Jesus, his only begotten son, there wouldn't be "Christ"mas. It's been commercialized so much that the true meaning of it is almost gone, which is wrong.
The ACLU makes me mad with their trying to take God out of everything and Christ out of Christmas. But they want all the money and stuff generated during the Christmas season.

That's my rant. Put God back in Christmas like it was meant to be.

[WVUFAN]

Depends if you believe in scripture. In the bible it says, "I judge those not of us but I judge those who are us."

I cant judge those out of the church for oing wrong things because they dont believe, how can I expect them to not sin until they believe. But those in the church we can judge because they live by our standard.

I'd like to think of myself as a Christian, although I'm not very religious. I believe that it's the duty of Christians to be there for those who want to learn more about the religion, but not to push it on others. God gave us all Free Will, including the will to choose not to follow, so in many ways by pushing it, you're doing a disservice to God ... you're driving away those who might otherwise have an open ear to what you're saying.

Also, be careful about spouting Bible quotes, or someone will quote one back to you, such as the one that gives rules on a father selling his daughter into slavery ...

"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her." Exodus 21: 7-11

EDIT: Stupid Enter key. :-)

My point in the quote isn't that the Bible is bad, it's just that it can be manipulated by pretty much anyone to mean what they want it to mean.

[RendeR]

I'm Christian, and I don't believe it's a sin.


You must be one of those "Modern enlightened" Christians....

[Franklinnoble]

I'd like to think of myself as a Christian, although I'm not very religious. I believe that it's the duty of Christians to be there for those who want to learn more about the religion, but not to push it on others. God gave us all Free Will, including the will to choose not to follow, so in many ways by pushing it, you're doing a disservice to God ... you're driving away those who might otherwise have an open ear to what you're saying.

Also, be careful about spouting Bible quotes, or someone will quote one back to you, such as the one that gives rules on a father selling his daughter into slavery ...

"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her." Exodus 21: 7-11

EDIT: Stupid Enter key. :-)

My point in the quote isn't that the Bible is bad, it's just that it can be manipulated by pretty much anyone to mean what they want it to mean.

That verse does not mean "go sell your daughter into slavery." Study it a little more carefully.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I haven't read this whole thread. Just the 1st three pages.

Uh, dude... The first three pages are the whole thread.

[RendeR]

That verse does not mean "go sell your daughter into slavery." Study it a little more carefully.


Study his post a bit frank, he's saying that any verse can be INTERPRETED in whatever way someone feels like doing. Your interpretation probably won't agree with mine or his, but that doesn't make any of us the RIGHT interpretation.

[SirFozzie]

Too bad The Dog doesn't allow avatars,

http://static.last.fm/coverart/300x300/1412493.jpg

I would pay good money to make this nfg22's new avatar :D

[dbd1963]

Study his post a bit frank, he's saying that any verse can be INTERPRETED in whatever way someone feels like doing. Your interpretation probably won't agree with mine or his, but that doesn't make any of us the RIGHT interpretation.

Wait, are you letting him get away without acknowledging that there is tacit approval of the sale of your daughters (with a buy back clause)?

It was written in ancient Hebrew and has been translated any number of times, but they'd have to really botch the job badly if that passage doesn't mean what it simply says. And if they botched the translation there..

[WVUFAN]

Study his post a bit frank, he's saying that any verse can be INTERPRETED in whatever way someone feels like doing. Your interpretation probably won't agree with mine or his, but that doesn't make any of us the RIGHT interpretation.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to say, only RendeR said it better. It's not good quoting Bible verses when the meaning can be quite literally manipulated to fit pretty much any point. It doesn't prove a point; just causes greater division where there should be none.

Plus it's pretty dangerous believing whole cloth in a book that really no one knows the meaning of, or the intent of.

[Bisbo]

Where can I buy one of these handmaidens?

[Ben E Lou]

I've debated and prayed over whether or not to post in this thread at all, and if so, what to post. I hate to have to call out brothers in Christ, but the more I thought about it and even prayed, the more one unescapable thought train kept coming back:

1. I am commanded to be Christ-like as best as I can be.
2. Jesus rarely doled out harsh words, but when he did, they were virtually always directed at those who claimed to be of the faith, not at those who were outside the faith.
3. When he doled out those harsh words to those of the faith, they were specifically at those who had screwed up God's message and in so doing had alienated others.

Jesus said that we would be hated on account of his name. He did NOT say, "Go ye therefore and act like a religious jerk, so that they may hate thee." Not at all. Jesus was a friend of sinners. The people who were most comfortable with him were prostitutes, thieves and the like. The religious of the day were the ones who hated him, and ultimately had him killed, and it was the religious of the day to whom he spoke his most harsh words.

Countless surveys have been taken and studies done. Anyone want to take a guess at what the #1 thing that pushes non-believers away from seriously considering Christ?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Christ's followers and so-called followers, that's what. Non-believers don't want to be associated with anything to do with us, and frankly, I can't say that I blame them. If I'd seen this thread when it was first started, I would have deleted it. And to be perfectly honest, I would have deleted it out of embarrassment. Christ's followers and so-called followers have done more to be hurtful, push people away, and ultimately damage the credibility of Christ than any non-believer has come close to doing. From the awful things done in the crusades and the inquisition, to the way today that somehow "Christians" (I've said before how I hate that word) today feel it is their holy duty to offend people for the sake of Jesus. It truly breaks my heart.

Jesus was and is about bringing GOOD news to people, binding up the brokenhearted, proclaiming liberty to captives, freedom to prisoners, and comforting those who mourn. There is not a hint of one person who was afraid to get close to him. There were those who mocked him. There were those who envied him. Some misunderstood him. Others revered him. However, among all of them, there was never a hint of anyone who was hesitant to approach or get close to him because of a concern about being condemned or rejected. We have strayed FAR from that today.

I Thess 1:8--"We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel, but our very lives as well, because you had become so dear to us." Are non-believers DEAR to you? No, not do you look at them with pity, but are they your dear friends? Do you count among your closest friends those whom your faith would say would need you the most, or do you spend all of your time in "holy huddles" with those of the same faith?

Preach the gospel at all times. Use words only when absolutely necessary. The world doesn't need an explanation of Jesus nearly as much as it needs a demonstration of his love, grace, and compassion.

--Ben

[RendeR]

Well Said Ben. I am not a believer and I have serious issues with religion, but I agree wholeheartedly with your statements above. Very well put. Bravo.

[Tigercat]

For centuries people have been reading the bible and drawing out a message of fear and unrest.

I guess in at least a few ways I am no better than those that just see that in the message of Jesus, because I just see one of love and compassion and can't imagine how anyone could see anything else. So needless to say, great post Ben. I am personally surprised and relieved that someone made a post in this thread that could make me feel good.

[Raiders Army]

Uh, dude... The first three pages are the whole thread.

I think it depends on what your settings for the board are. I believe the default is 25 posts per page. He might have his settings set to that.

[Galaxy]

I can just picture God and Jesus smoking a bong, drinking some alcohol and flirtin with the ladies.

[Dutch]

Well said, Ben.

[Scarecrow]

damn skygod, well put.


moves SG's name up a few notches on 'the list'

[flere-imsaho]

Thanks for the great post, SkyDog.

Although...


2. Jesus rarely doled out harsh words, but when he did, they were virtually always directed not at those who claimed to be of the faith, not at those who were outside the faith.

I think you have an extra "not" here.

[Cuckoo]

Well said, Ben.

*nods*

[SirFozzie]

I've debated and prayed over whether or not to post in this thread at all, and if so, what to post. I hate to have to call out brothers in Christ, but the more I thought about it and even prayed, the more one unescapable thought train kept coming back:

1. I am commanded to be Christ-like as best as I can be.
2. Jesus rarely doled out harsh words, but when he did, they were virtually always directed at those who claimed to be of the faith, not at those who were outside the faith.
3. When he doled out those harsh words to those of the faith, they were specifically at those who had screwed up God's message and in so doing had alienated others.

Jesus said that we would be hated on account of his name. He did NOT say, "Go ye therefore and act like a religious jerk, so that they may hate thee." Not at all. Jesus was a friend of sinners. The people who were most comfortable with him were prostitutes, thieves and the like. The religious of the day were the ones who hated him, and ultimately had him killed, and it was the religious of the day to whom he spoke his most harsh words.

Countless surveys have been taken and studies done. Anyone want to take a guess at what the #1 thing that pushes non-believers away from seriously considering Christ?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Christ's followers and so-called followers, that's what. Non-believers don't want to be associated with anything to do with us, and frankly, I can't say that I blame them. If I'd seen this thread when it was first started, I would have deleted it. And to be perfectly honest, I would have deleted it out of embarrassment. Christ's followers and so-called followers have done more to be hurtful, push people away, and ultimately damage the credibility of Christ than any non-believer has come close to doing. From the awful things done in the crusades and the inquisition, to the way today that somehow "Christians" (I've said before how I hate that word) today feel it is their holy duty to offend people for the sake of Jesus. It truly breaks my heart.

Jesus was and is about bringing GOOD news to people, binding up the brokenhearted, proclaiming liberty to captives, freedom to prisoners, and comforting those who mourn. There is not a hint of one person who was afraid to get close to him. There were those who mocked him. There were those who envied him. Some misunderstood him. Others revered him. However, among all of them, there was never a hint of anyone who was hesitant to approach or get close to him because of a concern about being condemned or rejected. We have strayed FAR from that today.

I Thess 1:8--"We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel, but our very lives as well, because you had become so dear to us." Are non-believers DEAR to you? No, not do you look at them with pity, but are they your dear friends? Do you count among your closest friends those whom your faith would say would need you the most, or do you spend all of your time in "holy huddles" with those of the same faith?

Preach the gospel at all times. Use words only when absolutely necessary. The world doesn't need an explanation of Jesus nearly as much as it needs a demonstration of his love, grace, and compassion.

--Ben


Bingo, Ben.

Or to put it simpler.. "You shall know them by their works".

Not words.. works.

[timmae]

Its kinda like gravity tho...whether you believe you will fall or not, you do.


Wow, this could be good... I'm waiting for the train wreck that is science slaming full throttle into faith. :D

[Franklinnoble]

Read Matthew Chapter 10.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

[Fonzie]

Read Matthew Chapter 10.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Promise?

[Scarecrow]

Read Matthew Chapter 10.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Matthew 10 (King James Version)

1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

11And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

12And when ye come into an house, salute it.

13And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

17But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

21And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

24The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

25It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

26Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

27What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

40He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

41He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

42And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

[Fonzie]

The Bible sure uses a lot of words.

[Brillig]

I'm betting none of the devout here have been saluting the houses they've been coming into. Hellfire and damnation will ensue, after a brief commercial interruption.

[BrianD]

14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.


Sounds like a lot of people not receiving you nor hearing your words. Shake the dust off and take off already.

[JediKooter]

The Bible sure uses a lot of words.

There also seems to be an overuse of 'eth' a lot too.

[Eaglesfan27]

I've debated and prayed over whether or not to post in this thread at all, and if so, what to post.
--Ben



I also was debating on what if anything to post in this thread. Didn't quote your whole post just to save space, but very well said. I agree with everything you posted.

[CraigSca]

You know, never has there been a thread on this board that has depressed, saddened and sickened me as much as this one.

While I don't advocate and may question the methods that nfg initially used to "spread the Word", I have no doubt that his heart was in the right place. Yet, what has transpired here is a "God/Jesus is laughable" free-for-all. It saddens me tremendously, and I probably a) shouldn't have read as much as I have and b) not be adding to it.

We talk often of tolerance for other's religion/lifestyle/whatever, yet I see an absolute lack of it here. Nfg didn't ring your doorbell and invite himself in while you're eating dinner, he didn't call you on your telephone while you're trying to watch the latest episode of your favorite program. You read his thread and decided to have a field day. Whether misguided or not, he was only trying to talk of something he felt important.

I consider myself a somewhat infrequent yet valuable contributor to the board. I like a lot of the people here. I have an open mind, and my open mind has chosen what apparently a lot of people consider the "ridiculous" Biblical version of God and his son, Jesus. Choose to mock my beliefs, that's up to you. But don't preach to me that you're open-minded when you choose to mock someone's beliefs that don't match your own.

In the meantime, I'm going to crawl under my "do unto others" and "love one another" rock.

Thank you.

[sabotai]

I have no doubt that his heart was in the right place.

Why not?

[JPhillips]

Craig: Just curious, how do you feel about telemarketers? I think this is a similar situation. Nfg isn't well known around here yet he chose to start a thread that he had to know would devolve into a disaster. I don't doubt his sincerity, but I surely question his wisdom.

And, what Skydog said.

[k0ruptr]

Happy Solstice everybody.

http://www.naturetemple.net/images/p9spirit2pagan.jpg

[CraigSca]

Why not?

Funny, re-reading my post, I KNEW this would be picked out. Let's just say I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[BrianD]

You know, never has there been a thread on this board that has depressed, saddened and sickened me as much as this one.

While I don't advocate and may question the methods that nfg initially used to "spread the Word", I have no doubt that his heart was in the right place. Yet, what has transpired here is a "God/Jesus is laughable" free-for-all. It saddens me tremendously, and I probably a) shouldn't have read as much as I have and b) not be adding to it.

We talk often of tolerance for other's religion/lifestyle/whatever, yet I see an absolute lack of it here. Nfg didn't ring your doorbell and invite himself in while you're eating dinner, he didn't call you on your telephone while you're trying to watch the latest episode of your favorite program. You read his thread and decided to have a field day. Whether misguided or not, he was only trying to talk of something he felt important.

I consider myself a somewhat infrequent yet valuable contributor to the board. I like a lot of the people here. I have an open mind, and my open mind has chosen what apparently a lot of people consider the "ridiculous" Biblical version of God and his son, Jesus. Choose to mock my beliefs, that's up to you. But don't preach to me that you're open-minded when you choose to mock someone's beliefs that don't match your own.

In the meantime, I'm going to crawl under my "do unto others" and "love one another" rock.

Thank you.


Given the history of this place, a post like this is the FOFC equivalent of inviting himself in while we are eating dinner. There have been any number of potentially volatile subjects brought up and discussed in a reasonable manner (aside from a few specific posts or posters). This guy decided to start his post by saying that he knew people would hate the post but he was going to do it anyway. By strict definition, this could probably be qualified as trolling. That is going to bring people out against the poster no matter what they think of his beliefs. Had the same post been written about a particular political party, it could even be looked at for boxing or banning purposes.

Had the guy just come out and said "I know you don't all believe as I do, but in the spirit of the season I just wanted to say I love you all and wish God's peace be upon you", this probably wouldn't have turned into one giant "Merry Christmas" thread. The tone of the post set the tone of the thread.

[CraigSca]

Craig: Just curious, how do you feel about telemarketers? I think this is a similar situation. Nfg isn't well known around here yet he chose to start a thread that he had to know would devolve into a disaster. I don't doubt his sincerity, but I surely question his wisdom.

And, what Skydog said.

I'm not a big fan of telemarketers, who would be?

As I said, I may question his methods, but I will (updated) give him the benefit of the doubt. However, his method, whether misguided or not, is separate from the subject material. The vitriol I see is overwhelming and that's the part that saddens me. I guess I shouldn't be surprised in this day and age, but it's just difficult for me to let this lie. I probably should have.

[CraigSca]

Given the history of this place, a post like this is the FOFC equivalent of inviting himself in while we are eating dinner. There have been any number of potentially volatile subjects brought up and discussed in a reasonable manner (aside from a few specific posts or posters). This guy decided to start his post by saying that he knew people would hate the post but he was going to do it anyway. By strict definition, this could probably be qualified as trolling. That is going to bring people out against the poster no matter what they think of his beliefs. Had the same post been written about a particular political party, it could even be looked at for boxing or banning purposes.

Had the guy just come out and said "I know you don't all believe as I do, but in the spirit of the season I just wanted to say I love you all and wish God's peace be upon you", this probably wouldn't have turned into one giant "Merry Christmas" thread. The tone of the post set the tone of the thread.

Agreed, I just wish the messenger was separated from the message.

[timmae]

We talk often of tolerance for other's religion/lifestyle/whatever, yet I see an absolute lack of it here.

...

Choose to mock my beliefs, that's up to you. But don't preach to me that you're open-minded when you choose to mock someone's beliefs that don't match your own.


Dude, I hear what you are saying but 95% of the subjects on this board get "mocked". How do you think many of the "punchlines" get brought about? Brings to mind a friend of mine who repeatedly states that he's not racist, sexist or the like... he hates everyone the same. I guess FOFC mocks all subjects the same..

[Toddzilla]

Happy Solstice everybody.Blessed Be, my brother.

[JediKooter]

To all: http://www.greenthinkers.org/blog/uploaded_images/festivus-795671.jpg

[sabotai]

A programming note to our viewers, the role of Schmidty will now be played by CraigSca.

:D

[Toddzilla]

Preach the gospel at all times. Use words only when absolutely necessary. The world doesn't need an explanation of Jesus nearly as much as it needs a demonstration of his love, grace, and compassion.[/SIZE][/FONT]nfg=pwn3d.

[CraigSca]

A programming note to our viewers, the role of Schmidty will now be played by CraigSca.

:D

Sorry, I don't understand this reference.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You know, never has there been a thread on this board that has depressed, saddened and sickened me as much as this one.


Look on the bright side: at least the reaction shouldn't be very surprising.

edit to add: Although it may be somewhat surprising to me. Only about 20-25% of the posts came from people I already have on ignore. I counted because I was expecting something more like half.

[sabotai]

Look on the bright side: at least the reaction shouldn't be very surprising.

Certainly correct. The reaction by many people in this thread was not surprising at all.

[Brillig]

Considering that the thread started on a wholly intolerant note, I wouldn't expect great openmindedness from anyone who read the OP. People who believe that they have cornered the market on the "one truth" and go around lecturing others that "they had best mend their ways" (which is precisely what nfg did), fully deserve to be ridiculed as the village idiots that they are.

[Maple Leafs]

General observation: everytime we have one of these threads and the religious folks butt heads with the anti-religious folks, each side takes turns making the other look good.

[CraigSca]

Sabotai,

Seriously, could you enlighten me on the Schmidty reference? I'd really like to understand what you were saying.

[Icy]

Good post Ben, you got way more respect from me now in your believer condition. I was a believer once, a lot of years ago, but not anymore, and one of the big reasons is exactly what you described, christians talking a lot and doing the opposite around me. Both brain washed guys like the one who started the thread and the Christian high staff corruption are the worst enemies of the real Christians.

A little off topic now, is there really a Monster called "Flying Spaghetti Monster" ???? How can be anybody afraid of that? I can only laught while trying to imagine a spaguetti flying around, it's really ridiculous. I'll google it to find how it's named in Spanish as i can't remember anything like that from the years i expent in Christians schools.

[WVUFAN]

A little off topic now, is there really a Monster called "Flying Spaghetti Monster" ???? How can be anybody afraid of that? I can only laught while trying to imagine a spaguetti flying around, it's really ridiculous. I'll google it to find how it's named in Spanish as i can't remember anything like that from the years i expent in Christians schools.

Icy: here's a link explaining about the Flying Spagetti Monster:

hxxp://www.venganza.org (http://www.venganza.org)

Good stuff.

[Karlifornia]

Is there an abridged version of the bible anywhere? I've always wanted to hunker down and read the whole enchanted enchilada, but the book is so boring it's ungodly. Maybe they could get that Dan Brown fellow do a re-write.

And what's up with that whole genesis chapter? Sounds like someone ran out of ideas. They should change the name of it from Genesis to "Begat".

I did like how that one broad who turned and looked back at the fire turned into a pillar of salt. It was a real masterstroke, because if he had turned her into sugar, well...there would have been one hell of an ant infestation.

In speaking of animals...Noah getting two of every animal had to be a freaking chore. Just think that he got two cottonmouths, two black mamba, two brown recluse spiders, two japanese giant hornets, hell the fucker got two warthogs on that rig. So this Noah cat was wild Jeff Corwin, Steve Irwin, Manny Puig, and Jack Hanna all rolled into one ball of Divine Animal Catcher. Why didn't he hire an assistant? That's how P Diddy built his empire.

And a talking snake in a tree? Get real...everybody knows talking snakes didn't even exist until the late 1960's.

[Buccaneer]

I've debated and prayed over whether or not to post in this thread at all, and if so, what to post. I hate to have to call out brothers in Christ, but the more I thought about it and even prayed, the more one unescapable thought train kept coming back:

1. I am commanded to be Christ-like as best as I can be.
2. Jesus rarely doled out harsh words, but when he did, they were virtually always directed at those who claimed to be of the faith, not at those who were outside the faith.
3. When he doled out those harsh words to those of the faith, they were specifically at those who had screwed up God's message and in so doing had alienated others.

Jesus said that we would be hated on account of his name. He did NOT say, "Go ye therefore and act like a religious jerk, so that they may hate thee." Not at all. Jesus was a friend of sinners. The people who were most comfortable with him were prostitutes, thieves and the like. The religious of the day were the ones who hated him, and ultimately had him killed, and it was the religious of the day to whom he spoke his most harsh words.

Countless surveys have been taken and studies done. Anyone want to take a guess at what the #1 thing that pushes non-believers away from seriously considering Christ?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Christ's followers and so-called followers, that's what. Non-believers don't want to be associated with anything to do with us, and frankly, I can't say that I blame them. If I'd seen this thread when it was first started, I would have deleted it. And to be perfectly honest, I would have deleted it out of embarrassment. Christ's followers and so-called followers have done more to be hurtful, push people away, and ultimately damage the credibility of Christ than any non-believer has come close to doing. From the awful things done in the crusades and the inquisition, to the way today that somehow "Christians" (I've said before how I hate that word) today feel it is their holy duty to offend people for the sake of Jesus. It truly breaks my heart.

Jesus was and is about bringing GOOD news to people, binding up the brokenhearted, proclaiming liberty to captives, freedom to prisoners, and comforting those who mourn. There is not a hint of one person who was afraid to get close to him. There were those who mocked him. There were those who envied him. Some misunderstood him. Others revered him. However, among all of them, there was never a hint of anyone who was hesitant to approach or get close to him because of a concern about being condemned or rejected. We have strayed FAR from that today.

I Thess 1:8--"We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel, but our very lives as well, because you had become so dear to us." Are non-believers DEAR to you? No, not do you look at them with pity, but are they your dear friends? Do you count among your closest friends those whom your faith would say would need you the most, or do you spend all of your time in "holy huddles" with those of the same faith?

Preach the gospel at all times. Use words only when absolutely necessary. The world doesn't need an explanation of Jesus nearly as much as it needs a demonstration of his love, grace, and compassion.

--Ben


As one who has talked about matters of faith here, I have been and am still in complete agreement with this. I have spoke at length against the modern day Pharisees with their emphasis on church fortresses, cliquesh (sp?) ministries, comfort-zone fellowships and substituting magic words for real acts of grace. No wonder, as Ben said, our Lord reserved his harsh words for the Pharisees of His day.

From one of my favorite authors

Perhaps the most subversive and dangerous of all Christ’s examples was his fierce hostility to religion. Christ opposed formalized worship in all its guises, including ritual purifications, sacrifice, the Sabbath [in adhering to a "holy" day], codes of eating, priesthoods, and the Temple. He declared that the only authentic religion was that of the heart, the inner union with the Father that he had achieved and would share with his followers. He opposed religion that was proud of its virtues, built expense monuments to its own glory, and was more eager to impose burdens on its followers than it was willing to share or lift them. He opposed religion that ignored the poor and cultivated the rich, that scorned society’s outcasts while flattering its rulers.

[ISiddiqui]

A little off topic now, is there really a Monster called "Flying Spaghetti Monster" ???? How can be anybody afraid of that? I can only laught while trying to imagine a spaguetti flying around, it's really ridiculous. I'll google it to find how it's named in Spanish as i can't remember anything like that from the years i expent in Christians schools.

:)

No, it started because of the whole Kansas debate about teaching Intelligent Design in schools. A guy wrote a letter saying that he felt that if ID was going to be taught that the story of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) should be taught as well. The FSM was basically a parody of the big 3 monotheistic religions. He demanded that Pastafarianism (the religion of the FSM) also be taught since ID was going to be in schools.

Since then it's taken off like a rocket as a parody of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God story (with the implied assertion that there is as much proof for the FSM's existance as there is for the God of the Hebrews):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[Icy]

Icy: here's a link explaining about the Flying Spagetti Monster:

hxxp://www.venganza.org (http://www.venganza.org)

Good stuff.

WTF? is that serious or just a joke trying to ridiculize religion?? If it's serious, how can anybody believe in that 80's B series monster????

I'm amazed now, i really try to respect everybody's beliefs and can enjoy having a good discussion with believers who have a more open mind and can discuss intelligently about it (like Skydog), but that FSM thing is really laughable and i can't respect anybody believing on that.

The guy who invented that stuff must be laughing out loud at the all the stupids believing on it. I'm sorry for saying this, but I can't show any respect for the believers on that unless it's just a bad joke. If i were a believer, i would be really ashamed of those guys and also really angry about the damage they do to real believers.

[Icy]

:)

No, it started because of the whole Kansas debate about teaching Intelligent Design in schools. A guy wrote a letter saying that he felt that if ID was going to be taught that the story of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) should be taught as well. The FSM was basically a parody of the big 3 monotheistic religions. He demanded that Pastafarianism (the religion of the FSM) also be taught since ID was going to be in schools.

Since then it's taken off like a rocket as a parody of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God story (with the implied assertion that there is as much proof for the FSM's existance as there is for the God of the Hebrews):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Ah ok, it makes more sense now, as i posted above i was really afraid of the intelligence level of some humans around us.

[sabotai]

Ah ok, it makes more sense now, as i posted above i was really afraid of the intelligence level of some humans around us.

Feel free to continue to worry about the intelligence level of some humans around us. We've got plenty of other reasons to. ;)

[Fonzie]

As one who has talked about matters of faith here, I have been and am still in complete agreement with this. I have spoke at length against the modern day Pharisees with their emphasis on church fortresses, cliquesh (sp?) ministries, comfort-zone fellowships and substituting magic words for real acts of grace. No wonder, as Ben said, our Lord reserved his harsh words for the Pharisees of His day.

From one of my favorite authors

Who is that author, Bucc?

[Buccaneer]

Who is that author, Bucc?

Something Willis (Craig?). He wrote Lincoln at Gettysburg.

[sabotai]

Something Willis (Craig?). He wrote Lincoln at Gettysburg.

Garry Willis.

[Fonzie]

Thanks.

[Buccaneer]

That's it. I don't have his book near me.

[sabotai]

Correction, Garry Wills (not Willis). I've been trying to google that quote but can't find it.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Is there an abridged version of the bible anywhere? I've always wanted to hunker down and read the whole enchanted enchilada, but the book is so boring it's ungodly. Maybe they could get that Dan Brown fellow do a re-write.


I'm rather fond of this version. (http://www.thebricktestament.com/)

[Buccaneer]

Running the risk of stepping into the middle of the debate, I want to be clear that while there are many valid criticisms of "religions" and "man's churches", as well as against legalism, there is still the message of being Christ-like and understanding what it means to be in a relationship with God. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (notice fruit or "what the Spirit brings" is singular). That is only the beginning of understanding.

[nfg22]

I'd like to think of myself as a Christian, although I'm not very religious. I believe that it's the duty of Christians to be there for those who want to learn more about the religion, but not to push it on others. God gave us all Free Will, including the will to choose not to follow, so in many ways by pushing it, you're doing a disservice to God ... you're driving away those who might otherwise have an open ear to what you're saying.

Also, be careful about spouting Bible quotes, or someone will quote one back to you, such as the one that gives rules on a father selling his daughter into slavery ...

"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her." Exodus 21: 7-11



EDIT: Stupid Enter key. :-)

My point in the quote isn't that the Bible is bad, it's just that it can be manipulated by pretty much anyone to mean what they want it to mean.

It can be made to mean alot of things but just because it can be preverted doesnt mean I cant use it. Its kinda like a car, it can be used to run over people, steal things, and run away, but we still use it for good, such as getting around. Also if you read the bible and claim to be a Christian, you would see that the apostles definetly pushed their faith on people....

[nfg22]

I've debated and prayed over whether or not to post in this thread at all, and if so, what to post. I hate to have to call out brothers in Christ, but the more I thought about it and even prayed, the more one unescapable thought train kept coming back:

1. I am commanded to be Christ-like as best as I can be.
2. Jesus rarely doled out harsh words, but when he did, they were virtually always directed at those who claimed to be of the faith, not at those who were outside the faith.
3. When he doled out those harsh words to those of the faith, they were specifically at those who had screwed up God's message and in so doing had alienated others.

Jesus said that we would be hated on account of his name. He did NOT say, "Go ye therefore and act like a religious jerk, so that they may hate thee." Not at all. Jesus was a friend of sinners. The people who were most comfortable with him were prostitutes, thieves and the like. The religious of the day were the ones who hated him, and ultimately had him killed, and it was the religious of the day to whom he spoke his most harsh words.

Countless surveys have been taken and studies done. Anyone want to take a guess at what the #1 thing that pushes non-believers away from seriously considering Christ?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Christ's followers and so-called followers, that's what. Non-believers don't want to be associated with anything to do with us, and frankly, I can't say that I blame them. If I'd seen this thread when it was first started, I would have deleted it. And to be perfectly honest, I would have deleted it out of embarrassment. Christ's followers and so-called followers have done more to be hurtful, push people away, and ultimately damage the credibility of Christ than any non-believer has come close to doing. From the awful things done in the crusades and the inquisition, to the way today that somehow "Christians" (I've said before how I hate that word) today feel it is their holy duty to offend people for the sake of Jesus. It truly breaks my heart.

Jesus was and is about bringing GOOD news to people, binding up the brokenhearted, proclaiming liberty to captives, freedom to prisoners, and comforting those who mourn. There is not a hint of one person who was afraid to get close to him. There were those who mocked him. There were those who envied him. Some misunderstood him. Others revered him. However, among all of them, there was never a hint of anyone who was hesitant to approach or get close to him because of a concern about being condemned or rejected. We have strayed FAR from that today.

I Thess 1:8--"We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel, but our very lives as well, because you had become so dear to us." Are non-believers DEAR to you? No, not do you look at them with pity, but are they your dear friends? Do you count among your closest friends those whom your faith would say would need you the most, or do you spend all of your time in "holy huddles" with those of the same faith?

Preach the gospel at all times. Use words only when absolutely necessary. The world doesn't need an explanation of Jesus nearly as much as it needs a demonstration of his love, grace, and compassion.

--Ben



Skydog. I understand what you are saying, problem is that quote "use words when neccesary" comes from St. Francis of Assici who was fighting the Catholic Church who would not love people at the time...Also what about in Titus when it says "if you love God you will be persecuted", or when Jesus said "Remember that the world will hate you because it hated me first." We cann worry that people are going to be offended. Other wise we wouldnt be killed for preaching in some cases.

[nfg22]

Is there an abridged version of the bible anywhere? I've always wanted to hunker down and read the whole enchanted enchilada, but the book is so boring it's ungodly. Maybe they could get that Dan Brown fellow do a re-write.

And what's up with that whole genesis chapter? Sounds like someone ran out of ideas. They should change the name of it from Genesis to "Begat".

I did like how that one broad who turned and looked back at the fire turned into a pillar of salt. It was a real masterstroke, because if he had turned her into sugar, well...there would have been one hell of an ant infestation.

In speaking of animals...Noah getting two of every animal had to be a freaking chore. Just think that he got two cottonmouths, two black mamba, two brown recluse spiders, two japanese giant hornets, hell the fucker got two warthogs on that rig. So this Noah cat was wild Jeff Corwin, Steve Irwin, Manny Puig, and Jack Hanna all rolled into one ball of Divine Animal Catcher. Why didn't he hire an assistant? That's how P Diddy built his empire.

And a talking snake in a tree? Get real...everybody knows talking snakes didn't even exist until the late 1960's.


Start with Luke or Mark...

[nfg22]

This may be my last post in this thread unless there are serious questions....but let me say something. I dont care that I am being mocked and such. Also I feel it is the call to preach the word. I also live it, and I know that cant show here because I do not post as much as alot of you but I know in my conscience that I do my best to live for God. Anyways, all of you have an awesome Christmas and just try seeking God once to see if He is real, and I dont mean a five minute prayer but really seek Him, because if my fanatical view is right, then you have no other choice and if Im wrong, then you wasted some time, but the risk/reward is pretty good.

[Raiders Army]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2713/nelsonkh6.gif

[Raiders Army]

wait, that's pointing at me.

[lighthousekeeper]

Start with Luke or Mark...

Now I'm really confused, because I thought Luke *was* Mark - disciple to Lord Yoda?

http://accordionguy.blogware.com/Photos/2005/05/mark_hamill_people_magazine_1981.jpg



then again, I never thought Jim Baker was a QB either, so shows what I know about Christianity.

[Buccaneer]

Skydog. I understand what you are saying, problem is that quote "use words when neccesary" comes from St. Francis of Assici who was fighting the Catholic Church who would not love people at the time...Also what about in Titus when it says "if you love God you will be persecuted", or when Jesus said "Remember that the world will hate you because it hated me first." We cann worry that people are going to be offended. Other wise we wouldnt be killed for preaching in some cases.

I would say that the goal is not how persecuted a believer can be but in how we can be an expression of God's grace in whatever circumstances He puts us. I have seen too many wanting to say the words to fight but leaving no room in the heart to love, to care or to minister to the needs of one another.

[nfg22]

I would say that the goal is not how persecuted a believer can be but in how we can be an expression of God's grace in whatever circumstances He puts us. I have seen too many wanting to say the words to fight but leaving no room in the heart to love, to care or to minister to the needs of one another.

Im sorry if I seemed like I came here to fight or to hate. I did not mean to. I just wanted to present the truth, I never said anything more, I never called anyone out or anything other than saying they needed Jesus. my intention was not to hate or to get persecuted. I dont see anywhere where I was trolling. If you can find it, other than the first post where I stated the truth, because I was not egging anyone on. yet I apologize if you were offended by anything other than the gospel. yet I will not apologize for the gospel for even scripture says "The gospel is offensive to those who are perishing".

[Glengoyne]

I'm with Craig in his feeling that nfg's heart was likely in the right place, and that the vitriol directed at him was dispoportionate to his act. I'm also with SkyDog in his assessment that nfg's message was misguided.

In fact, Ben, that was one heckuva post. Christianity should be a positive and affirming message. Christians should be examples of Christ's love, and beyond that, exemplify a spirit of grace in their actions and interactions with others.

[Buccaneer]

Im sorry if I seemed like I came here to fight or to hate. I did not mean to. I just wanted to present the truth, I never said anything more, I never called anyone out or anything other than saying they needed Jesus. my intention was not to hate or to get persecuted. I dont see anywhere where I was trolling. If you can find it, other than the first post where I stated the truth, because I was not egging anyone on. yet I apologize if you were offended by anything other than the gospel. yet I will not apologize for the gospel for even scripture says "The gospel is offensive to those who are perishing".

Be a light to shine. Tell Cam that you are praying that the health problem with his child is not serious. Tell Toddzilla that you gave thanks to God that his burglary was not more serious. Tell Troy and others that are traveling (or trying to travel) that you hope they make it safely and expedientely. In being that light, others will see.

[Buccaneer]

I'm with Craig in his feeling that nfg's heart was likely in the right place, and that the vitriol directed at him was dispoportionate to his act. I'm also with SkyDog in his assessment that nfg's message was misguided.

In fact, Ben, that was one heckuva post. Christianity should be a positive and affirming message. Christians should be examples of Christ's love, and beyond that, exemplify a spirit of grace in their actions and interactions with others.

You would have to admit, however, that it would be hard to do in a limited medium that we have here. For most of us, what we write is all we have to go on, so the challenge is how we, as believers, can present ourselves in such a way that we can be an example as if in a physical sense.

Here is the mission statement of one of the ministries I support:


Praying for young people.
Going where kids are.
Building personal relationships with them.
Winning the right to be heard.
Providing experiences that are fun, adventurous and life-changing.
Sharing our lives and the Good News of Jesus Christ with adolescents.
Inviting them to personally respond to this Good News.
Loving them regardless of their response.
Nurturing kids so they might grow in their love for Christ and the knowledge of God's Word and become people who can share their faith with others.
Helping young people develop the skills, assets and attitudes to reach their full God-given potential.
Encouraging kids to live connected to the Body of Christ by being an active member of a local congregation.
Working with a team of like-minded individuals -- volunteer leaders, committee members, donors and staff.

The key is to meet them where they are and to love as Christ did.

[JediKooter]

Im sorry if I seemed like I came here to fight or to hate. I did not mean to. I just wanted to present the truth, I never said anything more, I never called anyone out or anything other than saying they needed Jesus. my intention was not to hate or to get persecuted. I dont see anywhere where I was trolling. If you can find it, other than the first post where I stated the truth, because I was not egging anyone on. yet I apologize if you were offended by anything other than the gospel. yet I will not apologize for the gospel for even scripture says "The gospel is offensive to those who are perishing".

The problem is, it isn't the truth, it's faith. Unfortunately, faith does not equal truth. I don't believe you are wrong or right in believing in your faith and god, but, if it is something that makes you happy and a better person, that's awesome. Heck, I don't even know for sure if my beliefs are the correct ones, but, it's what makes me happy.

As a suggestion, maybe if you work on your presentation of your faith a little more, you won't turn off so many people to it. I think what SkyDog said was pretty good advice.

[NoMyths]

In speaking of animals...Noah getting two of every animal had to be a freaking chore. Just think that he got two cottonmouths, two black mamba, two brown recluse spiders, two japanese giant hornets, hell the fucker got two warthogs on that rig. So this Noah cat was wild Jeff Corwin, Steve Irwin, Manny Puig, and Jack Hanna all rolled into one ball of Divine Animal Catcher. Why didn't he hire an assistant? That's how P Diddy built his empire.

Noah Studies (http://www.blackbird.vcu.edu/v5n2/poetry/penberthy_b/noah.htm)

[Glengoyne]

You would have to admit, however, that it would be hard to do in a limited medium that we have here. For most of us, what we write is all we have to go on, so the challenge is how we, as believers, can present ourselves in such a way that we can be an example as if in a physical sense.

I agree. I actually cut my post there short, because I didn't want to get off on a rant. I intended to make the point that we should dwell on the positive aspects/traits of christianity, and not get carried away beating others, believers and non-believers alike, over their heads with our "faith".



Here is the mission statement of one of the ministries I support:



The key is to meet them where they are and to love as Christ did.

Youth for Christ? Or Young Life like Ben? Those are the two I can think of that come closest.

[CU Tiger]

I have read and debated whether to post a reply to this thread.

On one hand it is a subject I feel great conviction for, on the other, I am a relative new poster here (though I have lurked and read on and off for years) and I am really unsure what weight, merit or "good" a post by me can do.

I feel that Skydog made a GREAT post, and spoke very succinctly. I also feel that the OP had his heart in the right place, though his delivery I feel was flawed.

I hate to use this analogy, but it really is the best one I know...

The kids in the kiosks at the mall at Christmas time who stop you and say "just a second of your time" and try to sell you...whatever...
Are they bad people?
I don't know. Probably not.
Is there product bad?
I don't know, but I assume it is because of the way they thrust it at me, obviously they feel if I analyzed it I would not conclude to buy their poduct.

The 'Product" we as Christians have to sell, is of the highest quality, given time to analyze and compare it I feel in time all will come to the conclusion that it is the clear chocie.
Therefor, my "sales approach" or ministry if you choose, is I genuinely try to help every person I encounter, somehow... Whether its as simple as a smile, a compliment, or holding a door for someone I try to think what can I do RIGHT NOW to positively influence the world. By association I influence evryone around me, they see my actions and I find them to be contagious. However, I do not shy away or hide my beliefs, and I am never afraid to say "I'll pray for you" or "God bless you" or any other "religious" expression if it is how I feel and it is appopriate, however I also do not look for situations to interject these words merely for effect.

Lots of quotes have been thrown around, I guess the 2 most appropriate to my feelings here are
"Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still; those convinced by choice alone will fight the battle as their own"
and
"You catch more flys with honey than you do with vinegar"

I want each and every peron I know to believe in and love God and experience His love and blessing. However I will not give up or abandon them if they do not. I will instead not alienate them, and stay close to them so that maybe in time the Light that is my life will shine on them and open their eyes."

I will not post again in this thread, but I do hope that everyone has a Merry Christmas, and that everyone gets at least a few minutes to enjoy and reflect on the Spirit of the Holiday. A spirit of giving not taking, one of helping not hurting, of building not destroying.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm also with SkyDog in his assessment that nfg's message was misguided.

I hope you don't mind if I quibble just a tiny bit.

Given your whole post I really don't think you meant that as a hard slam or anything, I'm just picking up on that one phrase to jump on a thought here, so please don't take this as a harsh critique of the quoted comment or anything. (and where I'm headed isn't much, if anything, new)

I'm not sure we're qualified to say that the message he attempted to deliver was misguided. If anything, I feel like the message was spot on ... but the delivery maybe could use some work. Thing is, I'm not 100% comfortable even going down that path either.

See, I get the impression that something was put on nfg's heart & he had to act on it or bust. Problem is, I don't know what was pressed upon him to say or do. Like you said, I believe his intentions were good (regardless of the outcome). I can also certainly understand questioning his delivery, but at the same time, I don't have any conviction about whether his delivery was off the mark for what was put upon him to do or if it was actually precisely what was he was told to do ... because I'm not privvy to the communications between him & God. I can think, I can guess, I can theorize ... but I don't know.

What I have a lot more confidence in is my belief that this wasn't some random post. I'm virtually certain that this wasn't something random, nor was it something that he did on a lark, and he sure didn't do it to win friends at FOFC, I feel that he was responding to a burden & did the best he could to fulfill that responsibility.

Back to my primary point though: he may not have gotten the delivery just right, but that's a flaw with the messenger, not necessarily with the message.

[Glengoyne]

I hope you don't mind if I quibble just a tiny bit.

...

I don't mind that quibble, and I even agree with the emphasis that the problem was with the delivery. I'm also going to agree with your sentiment, at least what I believe is your sentiment, that the delivery wasn't so ham fisted that it deserved the response it received.

I think my position is that the gospel isn't a dish that should be served up cold-turkey (to mix a metaphor). Blurting out the gospel to strangers on a street corner, isn't near as effective as sharing it with someone in the context of a relationship. Not that the gospel message is something that we should be ashamed of or afraid of sharing, but that there is a time, a place, and a manner that is appropriate. With regard to manner, I believe that SD's post is a far better presentation of christianity to a non-believer than what the original poster achieved.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm also going to agree with your sentiment, at least what I believe is your sentiment, that the delivery wasn't so ham fisted that it deserved the response it received.

Heck, I think that's almost a given.

Maybe I can borrow something from your latest post to do a better job of getting across the point I was considering (my train of thought jumped the tracks a bit earlier, I couldn't quite get my keyboard around what I was pondering)

Not that the gospel message is something that we should be ashamed of or afraid of sharing, but that there is a time, a place, and a manner that is appropriate. With regard to manner, I believe that SD's post is a far better presentation of christianity to a non-believer than what the original poster achieved.

As a general rule, I wouldn't disagree with that commentary. Thing is though, I don't really believe that this rule of thumb is an absolute absolute. The exception? What if God has a specific purpose/point/plan for a specific instance of a different delivery? A "mysterious ways" exception, if you will.

We already know that the same essential message(s) can be conveyed with different deliveries -- otherwise imagine how repetitive church would get over a lot of Sundays ;) -- so it isn't any stretch at all to believe that there are examples of unusual deliveries that appear off-based to the average mortal eye but are actually in tune with what God wanted in a given circumstance.

Mind you, I don't have any definite conviction that this is one of those cases , but I did/do have a fairly strong "but perhaps" (maybe better stated as "but what if ...") about it.

[flere-imsaho]

I think my position is that the gospel isn't a dish that should be served up cold-turkey (to mix a metaphor). Blurting out the gospel to strangers on a street corner, isn't near as effective as sharing it with someone in the context of a relationship.

I've always thought (and I'm willing to believe I'm being off-base here), that doing this is more akin to the self-flagellation various Christian sects used to do (still do?) than actual "spreading the word". Perhaps some Christians feel they need to suffer, and by metaphorically going into the Lions' den, that's exactly what they're doing?

[KWhit]

As a general rule, I wouldn't disagree with that commentary. Thing is though, I don't really believe that this rule of thumb is an absolute absolute. The exception? What if God has a specific purpose/point/plan for a specific instance of a different delivery? A "mysterious ways" exception, if you will.

You could say that about anything. If you truly believe in the "higher purpose" aspect of life, then everything is good. Everything is for the best. Even the people posting about the Flying Spaghetti Monster and ripping nfg.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If you truly believe in the "higher purpose" aspect of life, then everything is good. Everything is for the best

No, at least not what I'm talking about. Only things done in accordance with God's will would fall under the "good due to higher purpose" clause.