Poker ethics question

[Raven]

I've been playing poker with the same group of guys for about 4 months.
Every Wed. night we get together and play a tournament ($30 buy-in), sometimes two (or a cash game afterwards).

There are 6 of us regulars, and occasionally a few others come to play.
Last night it was just the 6 regulars. Two guys were eliminated and left. Of the 4 remaining players, one was dominating and had ~60% of the chips, 2 others were about even with ~17% each, and the short stack was down to about ~6% of the total chips. At this point, a heated debate broke out...

It's folded to the small stack in SB, he calls, and the big stack in BB checked. On the flop, the SB checks, and the BB bets 1/3 of the small stacks chips, he calls but it was obvious to everyone he wasn't comfortable with it. SB checks again on the turn, and BB asks him how many chips he has left. While the BB is considering what to do, it looks like the SB is going to fold - that is, he is about to fold even though the BB hasn't bet yet.

Seeing this, the BB waited to see whether he was going to fold or not, before taking action. At this point, one of the players who had already folded said "You don't have to fold, he hasn't bet yet".

The BB got mad and said something to him, claiming the players out of the hand shouldn't be getting involved. The talker replied along the lines of "It's a friendly game, and nobody else would care". They went back and forth for a minute or two before the hand continued.

Which side do you think was right in this situation? Was the talker out of line, or was the BB just upset because he didn't win a freebie? Was the talker trying to help out the small stack since the three other players combined were still way behind the big stack?

[Ragone]

Honestly. in a friendly setting like that, that is a very reasonable thing to do if someone is going to make a mistake like that. Besides all that, it should be obvious to the bb that any sort of push will put the sb out of that hand

However, in a tournament setting, its always best to just stick to your own hand

[CleBrownsfan]

I agree with Ragone - I've been in many friendly games and that kind of talk goes on all the time. Just remember not to do talk about the hand you're not in if you're playing in a "non-friendly" game....

[Butter]

Honestly. in a friendly setting like that, that is a very reasonable thing to do if someone is going to make a mistake like that. Besides all that, it should be obvious to the bb that any sort of push will put the sb out of that hand.

"

[Flasch186]

Howver you "can" & "Perhaps should" let someone know that they are acting out of turn, "when they do".

[Pumpy Tudors]

Maybe it's considered a friendly game, but there is money involved (and not just a few pennies or a couple of bucks). Personally, I don't like the talker getting involved, although my guess is that he wasn't trying to alter the outcome of the game at all.

With that said, if I were the BB, I wouldn't complain about it at the table. It would only serve to make me look like a jackass, and it might embarrass the SB. That's not really necessary. Maybe I'd say something to the talker in private after the game, but I'd let it slide at the table.

Perhaps I'm strange, but I don't really like allowing certain things just because it's a friendly game. I've never actually complained at the table, but some things have made me cringe. I just feel that there are things that don't need to be done. I understand that lots of people are willing to bend the rules or have a looser etiquette in a friendly game, and that's fine. Those ideas just never really settled into my mind very well. I can deal with it, though.

[Logan]

Eh, no big deal.

[kcchief19]

I'm with the crowd that's OK with this in a friendly game. From the sound of it, it doesn't sound like the comment was going to have any bearing on the hand. This is the kind of thing you say to a friend so they learn and don't make the mistake in the future of acting out of turn.

In a casino, I'm pretty sure this would get himand/or the person he was advising in trouble though.

[lordscarlet]

I agree with the crowd (minus Pumpy). It's friends, you play regularly, it seemed clear he wasn't really paying attention... Let the guy know.

[Maple Leafs]

This can't possibly be the first time this sort of thing has happened at your game. How do you normally deal with players playing out of turn, misdeals, etc? If you enforce the rules tightly at all times, the continue. If you let things slide a bit in the name of keeping it fun (which is the right answer, by the way) then continue.

(My god, I've been playing with the same group of people for two years now and I can barely get these guys to remember that they're the dealer even though everyone is staring at them and they're holding a pack of cards.)

[Pumpy Tudors]

At what point is it no longer a "friendly" game? What if you're playing with friends, but it's for a significant amount of money (whatever you and your friends consider significant)? Does it make a difference then?

Anyway, like I said, I wouldn't make a big stink about it if I were at the game. It wouldn't stop me from playing with those people, and it wouldn't make me think any less of anybody. I guess I just don't "get it" or something. If someone else wants to tell someone that they don't have to fold, so be it. I just wouldn't do that myself. If the guy wants to muck his cards, then let him muck them.

I suppose my mistake was saying that I might say something to the talker privately after the game. After giving it more thought, I'm sure that I wouldn't. First of all, it wouldn't help anything to bring it up. Secondly, I probably wouldn't care enough to even bother. Most importantly, it would still make me look like a jackass, except only to one person instead of to the whole group. It wouldn't be worth the hassle to me. So, basically, I guess I just don't understand why anybody would be the "talker" at the table, but I'm not meant to understand everything.

[BrianD]

I think this is like the "proper english" vs "english dialect" thread. If you are playing with friends, you make up your own ethics and should stay within them. If you are playing with strangers, you should play with the proper poker ethics and not talk about the hand.

I don't think the stakes of the game really matter. You can't get one group of players to play differently depending on the stakes. People may pay a bit more attention and get more quiet while concentrating, but the normal group dynamics are going to eventually come out.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I think this is like the "proper english" vs "english dialect" thread. If you are playing with friends, you make up your own ethics and should stay within them. If you are playing with strangers, you should play with the proper poker ethics and not talk about the hand.

I don't think the stakes of the game really matter. You can't get one group of players to play differently depending on the stakes. People may pay a bit more attention and get more quiet while concentrating, but the normal group dynamics are going to eventually come out.
Well, that helps to answer my question. So if it's with friends, it's considered a "friendly" game. I just asked to help tie together some loose ends in my mind.

[rkmsuf]

I'd call the BB a baby but I don't know him/her. The fact they told the SB they didn't have to fold had no bearing on the hand. Actually they were doing the BB a favor if they kept the SB in the hand at that point perhaps. Most likely the BB bets and the SB folds anyway.

Geesh.

[BrianD]

Well, that helps to answer my question. So if it's with friends, it's considered a "friendly" game. I just asked to help tie together some loose ends in my mind.

I would think so. If people know each other (or at least a majority of the people) before they start playing poker, they will have already formed a group dynamic which will probably be maintained at the poker table. If the group is formed around a poker table, I would expect the group dynamic to be created with poker ethics as a prominent feature, but that may change if the group stays together for a while.

[Maple Leafs]

I think if it's a group of friends, it's considered friendly unless otherwise stated. I have a sub-set of my group that likes to play higher stakes and takes it a little more serious. When we play, we might make a point of saying we'll enforce rules, although even then it will only happen after the first mistake. For example, somebody mucks their cards when they could check, we may let them take them back but announce that that's the only warning for the table that night.

Some people find "friendly" games aren't as fun... if the group you're with prefers playing by the letter of the law then do it.

[SportsDino]

I ran a mostly friendly poker league where we had a set of rules but we still kept it friendly. Usually first mistake is just a warning and the 'intended' play was allowed to be completed. In this case, since it was clear the BB had not acted yet and the expected 'intent' of the player was to fold, we would force the BB to act explicitly since acting on a person's turn takes precedence over mucking a fold.

If any intent was malicious, for instance a person trying to induce mucks, they were warned.

Players outside the hand were not allowed to speculate until a hand was over (although it occurred frequently until it was needed to enforce the rule), however discussions of procedure of this nature were not considered speculation.

Basically, common sense and courtesy should be the rules. I ran about a hundred home games that year and we rarely had major problems (with groups of up to 50 and stakes up to $100 buyin). Generally you should try to set the mood you want in your games, if you want strict tourney play you need to act that way up front. You don't enforce casino mucking rules in between making doofus plays while joking with your buddies.

[Glengoyne]

I don't think the comment was out of line at all. Involved in the hand or not, if someone is about to act out of turn, I think it would perfectly acceptable to say something. I've often told people not to fold out of turn. I don't think this is limited to friendly games. My sentiment is the same, if I'm playing in a casino. This isn't table talk.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I don't think the comment was out of line at all. Involved in the hand or not, if someone is about to act out of turn, I think it would perfectly acceptable to say something. I've often told people not to fold out of turn. I don't think this is limited to friendly games. My sentiment is the same, if I'm playing in a casino. This isn't table talk.
OK, while I understand that people do it, I don't understand why. Why would you tell someone not to fold out of turn?

[SportsDino]

Generally it is more 'sporting' to let the guy know he made a mistake so he can correct it later on. If it is clear the guy is trying to take advantage somehow by this bad fold (maybe trying to get a tell an unorthodox way) then I would muck him, but most of the times you can tell if it is an honest mistake.

[Mustang]

In a friendly game, BB is kind of an ass for waiting to see if the SB is going to fold out of turn and waiting to bet.

In a friendly game, I'm not a stickler for discussing or bringing up rules on the play of the game as they might occur...

[Glengoyne]

OK, while I understand that people do it, I don't understand why. Why would you tell someone not to fold out of turn?

I guess I consider it the same as a bet out of turn. It isn't their turn to act, and they should be corrected.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I guess I consider it the same as a bet out of turn. It isn't their turn to act, and they should be corrected.
I don't know the official rules on this, but a hand can be declared dead at any time. If the cards fall off the table or if they touch the muck, they're dead. Folding the cards at any time can be a binding decision, even if it's out of turn. If someone tries to bet out of turn, that's something that you technically can't do. If it's not your turn, you can't bet. You can fold if it's not your turn, though.

Sorry, it looks like I'm trying to argue against people doing this sort of thing. I really don't mean to do that. I'm probably coming off like an ass here. Urgh.

[Mustang]

I don't know the official rules on this, but a hand can be declared dead at any time.

A hand can be declared dead at any time but, still think you should wait. (I think the dealers will remind the players that it wasn't their turn although, haven't played that much in a B&M casino..).

If I bet with 3 others still in and players 3 and 4 fold while player 2 is thinking, that would upset me. Player 2 doesn't know what 3 and 4 had so, maybe he was thinking he had me beat but, not the other 2 so, now he bets and doesn't fold.

If it is heads up and someone tells the other guy he doesn't need to fold until I bet, that isn't going to affect me as much as the first case.

I'd still remind the guy though although so you don't hit example #1...