Possible Penguins relocation [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

duff88

12-22-2006, 01:54 PM

So it looks like more and more obvious that the city of Pittsburgh won't get a new arena anytime soon so the Pittsburgh Penguins, as good a hockey city as Pittsburgh is, are likely going to relocate either this summer or next summer. The possible markets for this relocation are:

Kansas City - The Sprint Center looks like a state-of-art arena waiting for a team, there would also be no competition with the NBA. Questionnable wether Kansas City would support the team.

Houston - Huge city with a very good arena in the Toyota Center; there would still be a lot of competition with the Texans, the Astros, the Rockets, college sports, etc.

Portland - The Rose Garden is an OK arena for an NHL team, is Portland a big enough market to support both the Trailblazers and an NHL team?

Seattle - It doesn't look like they have any chance; no arena (I think the SuperSonics have a clause to not be in competition with an NHL team) and questionnable fan support.

Las Vegas - I hope not... It's a market that every sports league is considering, but there are questions about the gambling problems that may occur and wether there would be any fans. The NHL doesn't need a second team in the desert.

Wisconsin - Either Madison or Milwaukee. They have great support of the U of Wisconsin and have a great history in college hockey; still a big question mark and probably not among the frontrunners.

Hartford - There would certainly be enough support, but there is no suitable arena and it doesn't seem like one is going to be built soon.

Winnipeg - The 15,000 seats arena might be a bit too small for the NHL, but it's a real hockey hotbed with true hardcore fans. I don't think the NHL wants to move Crosby and Malkin to Canada.

Quebec - Don't have an arena, but is probably the best hockey market without an NHL team. The mayor has no interest in building an arena, and combined with the fact that the NHL probably don't want to move Crosby and Malkin to Canada, I think it's farfetched.

Southern Ontario - It was mentionned earlier, I think it's a silly idea.

What do you guys think; even those who don't know much hockey but who live in these areas?

bbor

12-22-2006, 02:04 PM

Re:Southern Ontario...prolly the BEST choice out of all these listed.Certainly the most hockey interest out of those places listed from the states.Why not 2 teams in Toronto ala the Clips/Lakers?

Pumpy Tudors

12-22-2006, 02:05 PM

Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic, but I think the Penguins will stay in Pittsburgh. It's a shame that Isle of Capri won't be building an arena in Pittsburgh, but I expect the state to work out a deal with the Penguins. I don't know what makes me say that, so I guess it's just a hunch.

Of the places you mentioned, fans in Winnipeg and Hartford are the ones most likely to give the team the same support that it gets in Pittsburgh. I don't find it likely that the team will move to a city that already had a team, though (regardless of the reasons that those other teams moved).

That leaves Houston and Kansas City as the other realistic possibilities. I don't know much about either place, but I don't think Houston can effectively support two pro hockey teams (with the AHL's Aeros already being there). Two pro hockey teams may work in Chicago or Philadelphia, but I don't know about Houston. As for Kansas City, I have no idea, but KC's Arena Football team would suffer with an NHL team moving in, and that's a shame.

(long live the AFL)

bbor

12-22-2006, 02:07 PM

I don't think K.C is an option.The NHL would be stupid to revisit an old site that they have used before,Look at Atlanta.

Pumpy Tudors

12-22-2006, 02:09 PM

I don't think K.C is an option.The NHL would be stupid to revisit an old site that they have used before,Look at Atlanta.
...and I'd be stupid for forgetting that my favorite team originated in Kansas City. Ooooops.

Honolulu_Blue

12-22-2006, 02:13 PM

I'd love to see the team go to Canada, but I don't think that would happen.

As for the rest... Not sure. I wouldn't mind seeing Pittsburgh head out West so that Detroit could move into the Eastern Conference. That would make their schedule significantly less taxing travel-wise and when all is said and done they'd likely be back in the same division as Toronto. I'd enjoy that.

That said, I'd like the Pens to stay in Pitsburgh if at all possible.

bbor

12-22-2006, 02:19 PM

HB you may get your wish...apparenly the league officials are talking about make 4 divisions instead of the 6 they have now.

Schmidty

12-22-2006, 02:26 PM

HB you may get your wish...apparenly the league officials are talking about make 4 divisions instead of the 6 they have now.

The Leafs, Wings, and Blackhawks should be in the same division. It's idiotic that they aren't.

bbor

12-22-2006, 02:30 PM

The Leafs, Wings, and Blackhawks should be in the same division. It's idiotic that they aren't.

Bring back the damn Chuck Norris division and then we'd see some real hockey :D

Schmidty

12-22-2006, 02:36 PM

Bring back the damn Chuck Norris division and then we'd see some real hockey :D

That's another thing. Hockey had the coolest division names in any sport, so what the hell were they thinking when they disposed of them? The NHL makes so many stupid decisions, it's ridiculous.

Galaxy

12-22-2006, 02:43 PM

I believe an interested owner wants to bring a team back to Hartford. They seem to have an arena proposal in the wings.

What do you think of Quebec City and Baltimore? Would the Southern Ontario team be put in Toronto or Hamilton? Could Southern Ontario support three teams (throw in the Sabres, which do draw a nice base from the border).

cuervo72

12-22-2006, 02:54 PM

Hockey is such an afterthought in Baltimore. When I was in college, they preempted NHL playoff games with the PBA...and local HS basketball. It would be a horrible choice, IMO.

Vinatieri for Prez

12-22-2006, 04:31 PM

Seattle - It doesn't look like they have any chance; no arena (I think the SuperSonics have a clause to not be in competition with an NHL team) and questionnable fan support.

In case you haven't heard, the Sonics will be gone soon, so there will not be any competition. And the Key Arena, while not the greatest anymore, can still get the job done for hockey (it already is used for WHL Seattle Thunderbirds). So I wouldn't rule them out, except for what I believe would be an unstable fan base.

And if they don't leave, as I understand it, the current ownership group is looking at the only option being to build a brand new arena in the suburbs -- a multi-purpose building that could also house and NHL franchise.

Schmidty

12-22-2006, 04:56 PM

Hockey will never work in Seattle. Fans here only seem to have room in their hearts for the Mariners and recently, the Seahawks. Not only that, but the few hockey fans that are in the area already root for the Canucks.

Moving the Penguins to Seattle would be a disaster.

Franklinnoble

12-22-2006, 05:03 PM

Arco Arena in Sacramento will probably be vacant soon...

stevew

12-22-2006, 05:06 PM

I would love if they could get a new arena done in Pittsburgh, but I'm not expecting much. Hell, a state of the art arena might even bring an NBA team to the city. The place they play at now sucks, it's a pain to get to via the interstate. It would have been nice to throw something up when they were spreading the bread for the Steelers/Pirates fields.

Pyser

12-22-2006, 05:13 PM

put em in canada. dont care where. id vote for toronto, they can support a second team.

JonInMiddleGA

12-22-2006, 05:48 PM

Hell, a state of the art arena might even bring an NBA team to the city.

Would you be willing to settle for the Hawks?

General Mike

12-22-2006, 06:03 PM

Put them in Hartford, call them the Whalers, and get it over with already.

Young Drachma

12-22-2006, 06:05 PM

Put them in Hartford, call them the Whalers, and get it over with already.

There is that idea.

Young Drachma

12-22-2006, 06:06 PM

...and I'd be stupid for forgetting that my favorite team originated in Kansas City. Ooooops.

Go Scouts! I mean, go Rockies! I mean..Go Devils! :)

Some ESPN columnist had a problem with the new arena in Newark saying it's a bad idea, but..I really believe that having an arena that is centrally located is the best idea ever. Who wants to go to the Meadowlands when they have to work the next day? It's too remote, but most folks just aren't smart enough to figure that out.

And Nets will move there soon too. The Brooklyn deal is as bad an idea is any.

Young Drachma

12-22-2006, 06:09 PM

Arco Arena in Sacramento will probably be vacant soon...

Meh. There are already too many hockey teams in California. Take the Ducks or the Kings. Your choice.

rexallllsc

12-22-2006, 06:56 PM

That's another thing. Hockey had the coolest division names in any sport, so what the hell were they thinking when they disposed of them? The NHL makes so many stupid decisions, it's ridiculous.

The NBA-ification of the NHL killed a lot of the tradition and personalization of the sport.

The NHL tried to break from it's "niche" status and go big. Failed miserably. They should've realized that there's a big difference between grabbing a ball and going outside and the hockey equivalent.

bulletsponge

12-22-2006, 07:01 PM

Hockey in Houston?! LMFAO!

kcchief19

12-22-2006, 07:23 PM

I don't think K.C is an option.The NHL would be stupid to revisit an old site that they have used before,Look at Atlanta.
Dark Cloud hinted at the argument against this line of thinking, but I'll spell it out. The Kansas City Scouts failed and relocated to Denver and became the Colorado Rockies, which also failed and moved to New Jersey. By the line of thought that revisiting an old site is a stupid idea, then putting the Avalanche in Denver was a stupid idea.

Kansas City has a lot going for it. One is that all of the suites are presold, which means there is a big chunk of money already there. Now that the possibility of getting the Penguis looks realistic, they are starting to presell premium club seats before they even have a team for the Sprint Center.

Kansas City has never abused hockey; hockey abused Kansas City. The Scouts were a Mickey Mouse operation, as evidenced by their failure in Denver too. They also had to compete with the NBA in a building in a shitty location. The new Sprint Center is the jewel of a new major entertainment district. Those two differences are huge.

In the early '90s, we had an IHL team that was affiliated with San Jose, and the Sharks had a bunch a great young studs at the time. The team was a winner, and the building was packed -- they led the IHL in attendance for a few years. Then San Jose jerked their affiliation to join with a team closer to California and when we ended up with a team of never-was has beens and never-would losers, the fan interest soured. Then the IHL imploded and we lost the team through no fault of our own.

If hockey gets to Kansas City first, it will be a winner. I don't think we can support both a NBA and NHL team, but whichever look puts a team here first will be successful. I'd LOVE to land the Penguins because it's a team on the rise.

Kansas City also has the connections. Boots Del Biaggio owns the NHL rights to put a team in the Sprint Center, and he had an agreement to buy the team before they tried to go the Isle of Capri route. He also owned a minor league team with Mario Lemieux, and he and Luc Robitaille are both involved with Anschutz Entertainment who manages the Sprint Center.

cuervo72

12-22-2006, 08:08 PM

I actually thought DC was arguing that the NHL shouldn't make the same mistake it has with Atlanta...

Pumpy Tudors

12-22-2006, 08:11 PM

Hockey in Houston?! LMFAO!
It's working for the Aeros.

bhlloy

12-22-2006, 08:30 PM

I would love to see an NHL team move back into Hartford, Winnipeg or Quebec. I hate that Bettman is so set against putting a team back in Canada where hockey is the national sport and truly loved, but hey I guess it is all about the $$$.

For the reasons above, KC seems like the only logical choice. Maybe Portland has an outside chance with an already established AHL team and arena.

clintl

12-22-2006, 08:33 PM

Arco Arena in Sacramento will probably be vacant soon...

If that doesn't work out, Stockton has a new arena.

stevew

12-22-2006, 08:58 PM

Would you be willing to settle for the Hawks?

I could probably deal with them. I grew up on the TBS Hawks, Nique, et al.

Franklinnoble

12-23-2006, 12:23 AM

If that doesn't work out, Stockton has a new arena.

Good point... if the city of Stockton paid $1 million just to secure a Neil Diamond concert, imagine what they'd shell out for an NHL franchise.

bbor

12-23-2006, 12:38 AM

The sooner Bettman realizes that the NHL is a gate driven league and not a tv driven league the better off the NHL will be.The only reason for him not to put this team in Canada is because of tv....which makes no sense as the NHL TV deal is shit.

I don't care where the team ends up as long as it is properly supported,i am not against an American city getting the team...but having said that i truly do beleive the team would do better in Winnipeg or Quebec.

Vinatieri for Prez

12-23-2006, 12:59 AM

I vote for Winnipeg.

cthomer5000

12-23-2006, 01:17 AM

dispersal draft

Young Drachma

12-23-2006, 03:21 AM

That's another thing. Hockey had the coolest division names in any sport, so what the hell were they thinking when they disposed of them? The NHL makes so many stupid decisions, it's ridiculous.

Bettman trying to turn hockey into basketball. He's responsible for a lot of the stupid decisions and the owners shouldn't have bought into it.

Young Drachma

12-23-2006, 03:24 AM

I actually thought DC was arguing that the NHL shouldn't make the same mistake it has with Atlanta...

Well..I don't know what I think of Kansas City. Seems like a bad idea to me. I mean, I get why they want a team for that arena and an intra-state rivalry with the Blues would be great.

But, I think there are other markets -- Hartford and Winnipeg -- are two that stick out in my mind as much better candidates.

Of course, KC has what neither of them does...a brand spankin' new arena without a tenant.

I think there are enough teams in crappy markets, that there should be enough teams to go around, if one wanted to get into that.

But I pray Houston doesn't get this team. That's a terrible idea on a lot of levels. But, this is Bettman's league. So prepare for a disaster, if there was one.

sooner333

12-23-2006, 04:00 AM

I hope they go to Kansas City...a hockey team there might make Oklahoma City a better NBA relocation site (except for the Sonics, because they will go to OKC if they leave Seattle...but I bet the suburbs make their arena for the Bennett group). Plus, I really don't want hockey here over basketball.

sterlingice

12-23-2006, 11:38 AM

It's working for the Aeros.

Woo! Go Aeros!

SI

lynchjm24

12-23-2006, 02:21 PM

Put them in Hartford, call them the Whalers, and get it over with already.

You sir are the King of Kings.

Ragone

12-24-2006, 08:38 AM

lynchjm24

12-24-2006, 12:00 PM

So why is it that hartford seems to be a good idea over kc/houston, when hartford lost their previous team to a move less then 10 years ago.

I'm not trying to be mean, it just doesn't make sense to me

I think the league has realized it's mistake moving into the South too quickly and with too many teams. Now that isn't really an argument for Hartford over Houston but I think that there are a lot of warm weather franchises who are wondering if it's ever going to 'work'.

The NHL could have been a great league, if they had been bright enough to break the union 15 years ago instead of waiting until now. Had they just cancelled the season back during the last lockout they could have skipped the extra expansions and kept the league in cities like Hartford and Winnipeg.

They tried to roll with the NBA, instead of staying with 21 teams they felt the need to move to 30 (or however many there are now, I'm not paying any attention). They felt that doing stupid things like renaming the divisions would make them more popular with the common fan when it really just made them less popular with their hardcore fan.

The NHL probably is never coming back to Hartford. Bettman doesn't want a team here, the Bruins and Rangers don't want a team here. There is some support for a new arena, but it's a long way from being built and no one is going to move without that building being delivered. Hartford is a better NHL market then probably 7-8 cities that have teams, there is money here and many more kids here grow up playing hockey in New England then anywhere but Canada and Minnesota.

You would think it would translate but at the end of the day Connecticut just doesn't have great sports fans. The 'average' fan will only support a winner and there just aren't enough corporate headquarters here to support the amount of money that needs to be spent to support pro franchises.

ScottVib

12-24-2006, 01:30 PM

So why is it that hartford seems to be a good idea over kc/houston, when hartford lost their previous team to a move less then 10 years ago.

Losing the team in Hartford was never due to a lack of fan support. It was strictly related to the revenues coming in from the stadium (the Civic Center was actually a part of a mall in Hartford and is terribly outdated) and Karmanos getting a sweethart deal from the officials in Raliegh. It took several seasons for the Hurricanes attendence to reach the levels they had in Hartford.

A team in Hartford even with the attendence numbers the lame duck Whalers had their final season was approximately 14,000 about 87% of capacity at the old Mall. That mark would give the Whalers a higher total attendence then original 6 members Chicago and Boston. They'd also be outdrawing Washington, St. Louis, the Islanders, New Jersey, and Phoenix. Percentage-wise they'd be approximately even with the Kings at around 20th place. This would add Nashville, Atlanta, and Florida to the list of teams that Hartford would outdraw. Plus getting the Penguins would seem to bring things full circle. The franchise in Hartford hit its low point when GM Eddie Johnston traded Ron Francis and Ulf Samuelsson (two of the most popular Whalers) to Pittsburgh, then Johnston left to go coach the Penguins to the Stanley Cup the next year. The state does in fact own the Whaler name and all trademarks, so a relocated team could be called the Whalers and don the old jerseys. There is local ownership ready to build an arena should they acquire a team.

The problems with Hartford are: Neither New York team nor Boston wants the Whalers in the Hartford market. The arena is less viable now then it was in the 90's and construction on a new arena has not started. Furthermore the Civic Center is presently managed by Madison Square Garden, so its highly unlikely that MSG would offer support to a rival team.

Its a pipedream, but I wish the Whalers would come back, I try to watch hockey now, but I just can't get into it the way I did when I had my favorite team to root for.

Joe Canadian

12-24-2006, 03:18 PM

As I see it there are only two ways this turns out, maybe three. What I think will happen, though it doesn't look too likely right now, is that the city\county\state will cave and Mario will have his new arena in Pittsburgh. This is what I want to happen, and this is what the league wants. Pittsburgh can support an NHL team, and I'd rather not see a team move from a hockey market only to return via another franchise later on, see Minnesota.

However if the team moves there's really only two places it's going to end up, Kansas City... and the very long shot, Las Vegas. If Mario does decide to sell the team again, there are confirmed (by the leagues) buyers ready to move the teams to those two cities. KC has the arena the NHL really wants to put a franchise in, and Vegas has the political will to build one. The team is not going to Canada... but I'll get to that later.

If we do see a team move, like I said, I'd rather it not be the Penguins. There are so many other franchises that desperately need new cities... both Florida teams, Atlanta, Phoenix, etc. Those places will never be hockey markets, and they should have never had teams put there in the first place. Which leads me to...

Mr. Bettman. It is clear that he still holds the same mandate, and goal they he did when he first became commissioner. He wants to grow the game in the US, but he wants to do that by putting franchises in big markets, even if they shouldn't have hockey teams in them. He wants teams in Houston, Vegas, Kansas City, and Portland. If someone wants to move a team anywhere else, he's going to fight them tooth and nail.

I don't really get why he is continuing to hold this POV, or why the league governors are backing him on this. It has failed, and failed horribly.

Why not concentrate on making the league healthier, and then move teams to those sexy markets. IMO, it would benefit the league so much more, to have teams in cities where people actually want to go to the arena, and to have owners that are genuinely interested in the team.

As for Canada... it's not going to happen any time soon. The southern Ontario region is THE best place to put a team, if the league wants healthy franchises. It is not silly like someone previously said, it's smart. But it won't happen... and when it does, it certainly won't be the Penguins. The league does not want Crosby in Canada... they want him to spread the game like Gretzky did, and he can't do that up here.

The NHL needs to get back into Hartford, Winnipeg, and Quebec City... and they need at least one more team in southern Ontario... IF having strong franchises is their goal. It seems they are more interested in having large markets, because they think that will give them a bigger national television market. That's not going to happen on OLN, but still that doesn't seem to matter to Bettman and the NHL.

While up beating up on Bettman... if they increase the size of the nets, I will never watch the NHL again, it will have become a joke league. They should instead be making youth nets smaller, so kids 5-6 years old aren't playing with NHL size nets... maybe then they'd learn to score more.

bhlloy

12-24-2006, 04:17 PM

Young Drachma

12-24-2006, 04:22 PM

My understanding is Tampa Bay is actually one of the better markets of the Sun Belt teams in hockey, along with Dallas. They even managed to get awarded the Frozen Four in 2012 or something.

But Atlanta, Florida, Nashville and Phoenix need to go pronto. Did Nashville build that arena for hockey, though? At least with the other two, someone else is using the arena or in the case of the Panthers, it doesn't matter one way or another. No one would notice if they left.

ISiddiqui

12-24-2006, 04:35 PM

Though, interestingly, Atlanta has better attendance per home game than Pittsburgh this season. As for Tampa Bay, they aren't just one of the better Sun Belt teams. They are THIRD in attendance per home game in the entire NHL! Trailing only Montreal & Detroit. Though they do have a bigger stadium than Toronto, Calgary, etc.

It is intersting that Boston, Washington and NJ are so low. They are playing pretty decent hockey. Though I guess with Boston and Washington, fan favs have been dealt, and NJ has never drawl well, not even when they were winning those Stanley Cups.

Young Drachma

12-24-2006, 04:49 PM

New Jersey doesn't draw well because the Meadowlands don't have a NJ Transit rail link. But no one talks about that. It's too hard to get there during the week if you live in the Central part of the state.

The new arena will truly test whether the market will draw or not.

ISiddiqui

12-24-2006, 05:03 PM

kcchief19

01-04-2007, 01:29 PM

KevinNU7

01-04-2007, 01:45 PM

It is intersting that Boston, Washington and NJ are so low. They are playing pretty decent hockey. Though I guess with Boston and Washington, fan favs have been dealt, and NJ has never drawl well, not even when they were winning those Stanley Cups.
Boston has to deal with bad ownership and management that has made it abundently clear that they are all about making huge profits. They are one of the most expensive tickets in the leage and due to all the corporate sales that occur they do not care about playing a half empty arena or bringing in some real talent because I they are doing well without it. It will be like this for the foreseeable future.

Young Drachma

01-04-2007, 03:12 PM

I used to live in Jersey... the reason they don't draw well is because there are already too many Rangers and Flyers fans in the state. There isn't that big of a pool of left over fans to draw from. I don't think a Newark stadium will help all that much (maybe a little bit).

I believe it will. Especially once the Nets move there, too. If folks will go to Newark to watch opera at the NJPAC, I have no doubt they'll go to a Devils or a Nets game there at a brand spanking new arena and avoid the hefty parking prices and traffic in NYC.

Wolfpack

01-04-2007, 03:27 PM

I believe it will. Especially once the Nets move there, too. If folks will go to Newark to watch opera at the NJPAC, I have no doubt they'll go to a Devils or a Nets game there at a brand spanking new arena and avoid the hefty parking prices and traffic in NYC.

So, you don't expect the Nets to end up in Brooklyn?

Young Drachma

01-04-2007, 03:39 PM

So, you don't expect the Nets to end up in Brooklyn?

They've already extended their lease at the Meadowlands until 2010. And state officials are pushing hard to close the arena there once the Newark Arena opens. The only reason the one in Newark wasn't state funded, was because of lobbyists in both the boons of north jersey and south jersey folks, being upset because of course, suburban New Jerseyeans hate their cities and want to forget they exist.

Anyway...no. That arena in Brooklyn was doomed from the start and the only reason Bruce RATner was interested in the Nets, was to get the precious real estate that he's going to bulldoze to build gentrified lots of expensive places that no one currently in that neighborhood could ever hope to afford.

He had no community backing, short of part-owner Jay-Z.

It was DOA and that's why they haven't so much as broken ground ceremonially. Once the Devils abandon the Continental Airlines arena, there will be no reason for the Nets to stay in the boons by themselves.

The Devils already offered them a chance to move there that remains an open-ended invite and well, basketball would play a lot better to the locals in Newark than hockey ever would, plus it'd have all the other advantages such as close access to Newark Penn Station, etc.

It just makes sense. No one thought minor league baseball would work there and it has. The NJPAC was the first major investment at that point in the city and with their new mayor needing real results, etc., having two major teams move to the city will be a PR coup. The Devils are already on board and so, yeah.

I think RATner would need to sell the team though, before they'd move to Newark. No way he wants anything to do with the team once the arena deal in Brooklyn is offically declared dead.

KevinNU7

01-04-2007, 03:41 PM

If we do see a team move, like I said, I'd rather it not be the Penguins. There are so many other franchises that desperately need new cities... both Florida teams, Atlanta, Phoenix, etc. Those places will never be hockey markets, and they should have never had teams put there in the first place. Which leads me to...

Joe I'm sorry but this needs to be said. "Spoken like a true canadian." It does not need to be cold out for people to enjoy hockey. Tampa Bay not only puts a good product on the ice but they are #3 in attendance right now. They might be the most successful expansion product for the NHL in the last 20 years. Getting rid of them would be the silliest thing the NHL has even done.

Young Drachma

01-04-2007, 03:42 PM

Kansas City held their presss conference today to outline the general terms of their offer to the Penguins for moving to KC. In a nutshell, it's a sweetheart of a deal -- no rent and they get a share of all building revenue, not just hockey revenue.

Mario and his group were in town yesterday to tour the building and meet with AEG.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2720130

Yeah, it's a hell of a deal it seems. And one of the venture capitalists that helped get the arena built, has an agreement to own any team that moves to KC with the arena. And he and Mario co-own a minor league club.

This deal is as good as done. 30 days and the Pens will make their decision. Hello KC Pens.

KevinNU7

01-04-2007, 03:46 PM

I really hope they change the name. KC Penguins is terrible

Young Drachma

01-04-2007, 03:48 PM

Joe I'm sorry but this needs to be said. "Spoken like a true canadian." It does not need to be cold out for people to enjoy hockey. Tampa Bay not only puts a good product on the ice but they are #3 in attendance right now. They might be the most successful expansion product for the NHL in the last 20 years. Getting rid of them would be the silliest thing the NHL has even done.

Agreed. "Hockey Bay" is a good market and they've won a Cup. It's full of northeastern snowbirds. I joked that you know those people have juice when they can get a baseball team for the sole purpose of watching the Yankees and Red Sox play without having to travel north each year.

I hated that Carolina got a team, but if ownership invests and the team wins..I have no gripe. And yes, I know they moved there and it was a sweetheart deal. But hey, if it works...

The Panthers need to go, though.

cuervo72

01-04-2007, 03:49 PM

KC Sunshine

Young Drachma

01-04-2007, 03:49 PM

I really hope they change the name. KC Penguins is terrible

Agreed. But to what? Bring back the Scouts? Probably not. So, I wonder what they'll do with that.

st.cronin

01-04-2007, 03:53 PM

Kansas City Krosbys

Vinatieri for Prez

01-04-2007, 04:28 PM

So, my guess is KC gets lined up; Mario leverages the offer to the gov't in Pitt; if they don't come close, then the team is gone.

Jonathan Ezarik

01-04-2007, 04:35 PM

This whole thing makes me sick. :(

Dr. Sak

01-04-2007, 04:41 PM

Young Drachma

01-04-2007, 04:56 PM

Will the NHL move another team to KC, then? Seems like a dream for that league to have a city that actually wants in. And not just some city with a arena and nothing else to put it in.

On second thought....

kcchief19

01-04-2007, 05:20 PM

The free rent deal isn't as sweet as it sounds. KC will still control most of the revenue due to parking and concessions. Pittsburgh is going to offer the Pens complete control over the revenue due to parking and concessions. Plan B only wants the Pens to pay somewhere around $3 million a year which they can offset with selling the naming rights.
The free rent isn't the real sweetner -- it's the one-half management ownership in the building with no buy-in. The Penguins would get one-half of all building revenue, which includes non-hockey revenue. That means the Penguins would get half the revenue from concerts, college basketball games and other events. The Sprint Center has also already sold all of its suites, so they are guaranteeing that revenue. Plus they get a partner willing to buy into the team -- it's revenue bonanza for the team owners.

No doubt that this is a legitimate option if the Pens can't get what they want in Pittsburgh. Anschutz made it clear in they understand that Pittsburgh doesn't need to match this offer to keep the team. And Kansas City isn't going to try and outbid Pittsburgh. So if they pull off Plan B in the next 30 days, the Penguins will stay. But the city has had eight years to put its act together, so who thinks that will happen in the next month?

Public sentiment on sports radio thus far sounds like Kansas City Penguins is great with us -- it's a great name and I wouldn't want it changed.

sterlingice

01-05-2007, 07:32 AM

Public sentiment on sports radio thus far sounds like Kansas City Penguins is great with us -- it's a great name and I wouldn't want it changed.

Yeah, I don't see what's so awful about KC Penguins. Yes, it's not alliterative like Pittsburgh, but as someone on the radio put it, it's not as if there were Penguins in Pittsburgh.

SI

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-05-2007, 08:20 AM

Kansas City held their presss conference today to outline the general terms of their offer to the Penguins for moving to KC. In a nutshell, it's a sweetheart of a deal -- no rent and they get a share of all building revenue, not just hockey revenue.

Mario and his group were in town yesterday to tour the building and meet with AEG.

The KC group leader said on talk radio that he believes it's a better than 50/50 chance that the Pens move to KC. He also said that if the Pens don't happen to move to KC, he's nearly certain that KC will have a NHL franchise via a move or expansion for the 2008-2009 season. He said the NHL commish is eager to get a team in KC as soon as possible.

KJDelaney

01-05-2007, 08:24 AM

I would love to see Quebec City or Winnipeg.

Butter

01-05-2007, 08:26 AM

Just what the NHL needs: more expansion.

KJDelaney

01-05-2007, 08:30 AM

Not expansion, relocation.

Butter

01-05-2007, 08:31 AM

Mizzou B-ball fan said KC thinks they're a good shot for expansion if they don't get the Pens.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-05-2007, 08:32 AM

Not expansion, relocation.

Bettman has been quoted as wanting to 'grow' the league. Privately, they have discussed expansion once a new TV contract is done as they are not happy with the current one.

Oilers9911

01-05-2007, 08:35 AM

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-05-2007, 10:06 AM

My two cents is this. I don't think KC would be a good market to go to. The midwest is football and basketball country and while St. Louis has done ok with the Blues (until lately) it is a much larger city than KC and at least has a positive history with hockey.

Regarding teams in the southern US. I have no problem with it but Bettman needs to admit that some markets just are not working. Tampa is solid, I would give Atlanta a thumbs up because they have had nothing but crap teams until this season so let's see if they support a winner before we condemn them. I think the Panthers may be a lost cause. Nashville is a concern because they have had good teams in the last few years and still struggle at the gate.

As for Pittsburgh my gut says they stay in Pittsburgh and I think that is how it should be. Pittsburgh over the years has a solid history of supporting that team and I think it will get done to let them stay. Here is what I would like to see happen (in my wildest dreams).

Pittsburgh stays put.
Florida Panthers moves to Quebec City (Les Nordiques return)
Nashville moves to Winnipeg.

KC had a minor league team for over 10 years during the 90s that averaged over 13,000 people/game on the weekends and 10,000+ on weekdays. Also, every single NHL exhibition game held in KC over the past several seasons has sold out despite no local interest in any of those teams. There's a reason KC is on the top of the NHL 'next up' list. New arena and a huge fan base hungry for hockey. While the midwest is a big college basketball hotbed, the NBA honestly isn't a big sport here. Most don't like the NBA-style of game in the midwest.

Oilers9911

01-05-2007, 10:17 AM

KC had a minor league team for over 10 years during the 90s that averaged over 13,000 people/game on the weekends and 10,000+ on weekdays. Also, every single NHL exhibition game held in KC over the past several seasons has sold out despite no local interest in any of those teams. There's a reason KC is on the top of the NHL 'next up' list. New arena and a huge fan base hungry for hockey. While the midwest is a big college basketball hotbed, the NBA honestly isn't a big sport here. Most don't like the NBA-style of game in the midwest.

Yes I have read up on KC's minor league team and they had success. But that wa sin the 90s and a minor league team. The NHL team would have MUCH more expensive tickets than the $15 (estimated) tickets that the minor league team had. I just wonder if it would be as successful with a much more expensive night out at the game.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-05-2007, 10:47 AM

Yes I have read up on KC's minor league team and they had success. But that wa sin the 90s and a minor league team. The NHL team would have MUCH more expensive tickets than the $15 (estimated) tickets that the minor league team had. I just wonder if it would be as successful with a much more expensive night out at the game.

The ticket prices are actually pretty reasonable. Season tickets for all home games will range from $350 for end seats in the upper deck (just under $10/game) all the way up to $5,000 for prime seats on the glass. With that said, all 72 of the suites are already sold and they are currently running a season ticket drive. Corporations alone have already pledged to purchase a large portion of tickets in the arena. They'll most likely sell 80% of the arena in season tickets between corporations and individuals once it's all said and done. The NHL is aware of that. It's a big improvement over the revenue situation in Pittsburgh.

wishbone

01-05-2007, 05:33 PM

Portland always has a loud group of people fighting to bring hockey in. I honestly don't think that people would support the team well enough, but it's possible that the group that owns the Rose Garden could provide a good schedule that might get people in the doors.

On a side note, the Blazers are offering a new ticket package right now:

You get 2 tickets to 3 games (Suns 2/6, Bobcats 3/1, and the Pistons 3/14) PLUS 2 movie passes AND a $20 Gift Certificate for McCormick and Schmick's Seafood Restaurants for $90 - $400 depending on seats.

Young Drachma

01-05-2007, 08:10 PM

My two cents is this. I don't think KC would be a good market to go to. The midwest is football and basketball country and while St. Louis has done ok with the Blues (until lately) it is a much larger city than KC and at least has a positive history with hockey.

Regarding teams in the southern US. I have no problem with it but Bettman needs to admit that some markets just are not working. Tampa is solid, I would give Atlanta a thumbs up because they have had nothing but crap teams until this season so let's see if they support a winner before we condemn them. I think the Panthers may be a lost cause. Nashville is a concern because they have had good teams in the last few years and still struggle at the gate.

As for Pittsburgh my gut says they stay in Pittsburgh and I think that is how it should be. Pittsburgh over the years has a solid history of supporting that team and I think it will get done to let them stay. Here is what I would like to see happen (in my wildest dreams).

Pittsburgh stays put.
Florida Panthers moves to Quebec City (Les Nordiques return)
Nashville moves to Winnipeg.

Quebec City doesn't have an arena and there was a collective yawn when the Nords left. Hartford would be a much better market and I think the promise of a team could get them to get themselves together to get an arena there. And it's not as if any of the NY-area teams could whine, because there was a team there once before and it's a solid market with a good building if they can get said good building.

JeffNights

01-05-2007, 08:37 PM

bbor

01-05-2007, 08:52 PM

Why did the Cheifs fold?

SteelerFan448

01-06-2007, 12:21 PM

Pittsburgh 'sweetened' there deal when they met with Mario this week. Another thing to consider is that Mario's billionaire partner helped raise a lot of money for PA's Gov. Ed Rendell. They are buddies and Rendell likes to take care of his people. Also, Rendell is close to the Flyers owner and would influence him and other owners to block a potential move (got the info from KDKA.com).

Galaxy

01-06-2007, 12:46 PM

Is Mark Cuban and his group still in the running?

Jonathan Ezarik

01-06-2007, 12:50 PM

As of now, Mario has taken the Pens off the market. I don't know if this means that he's not listening to offers or not, and I won't believe Cuban is serious until Mario says it himself.

cartman

01-24-2007, 01:56 AM

I thought the calls that the Penguins played in a hellhole might have been overstated, until I saw this video today of the visitor's locker room. Damn, I've seen high schools that have better facilities. Just plain sad.

hxxp://www2.sportsnet.ca/video/videoPlayer.php?url=rtmp://38.99.151.50/sportsnet/SCA_MELLON_07_01_21.1.flv

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-24-2007, 07:34 AM

Draft Dodger

01-24-2007, 08:00 AM

Why did the Cheifs fold?

great googely moogely

Suburban Rhythm

01-24-2007, 01:49 PM

Pittsburgh is quickly running out of time and Lemieux isn't exactly enthralled with the 'best and final' offer from Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania politicians.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2740053

Talk in KC is that Lemieux's patience with the Pittsburgh officials is wearing really thin. It's not like Pittsburgh didn't know it was coming. They've been saying they need to replace Mellon Arena for several years now.

Alot of this, in my opinion, is the two sides negotiating through the media, so if/when it falls through, they can all point and say "Hey, look, we did the best we could"--from both sides.

More recent, as of this afternoon.
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07024/756398-100.stm

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-24-2007, 02:06 PM

Alot of this, in my opinion, is the two sides negotiating through the media, so if/when it falls through, they can all point and say "Hey, look, we did the best we could"--from both sides.

More recent, as of this afternoon.
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07024/756398-100.stm

Honestly, I think the politicians have more to lose in this case. No one would blame the Lemieux group if the team ended up leaving. He stepped in to buy the team and keep it in Pittsburgh. The city and state have had plenty of time to get this ironed out and haven't done so. The government officials are playing with fire and risking losing the team.

If a city like KC can give $500 million to the Royals and Chiefs to renovate their stadiums and build a brand new $250 million arena at the same time, surely Pittsburgh can find money to build a new arena. If they can't, they maybe the Penguins shouldn't stay, which may be the conclusion that Lemieux and the other owners may be coming to at this point.

kcchief19

01-24-2007, 02:19 PM

Why did the Cheifs fold?
I assume you're asking about the Scouts, our short-lived NHL team in the '70s. They left town for several reasons, the significant issue being that leagues across the board were struggling in the '70s, the NHL specifically. It's important to note that the Scouts left for Denver to become the Colorado Rockies before failing there and winding up in New Jersey. Denver seems to be doing OK second time around. The No. 2 issue is that Kansas City built its old arena in the absolutely ghetto part of town in the middle of a rundown industrial warehouse area that was a pit. The Kings left in the mid-80s primarily because of the arena -- support for the team was strong, but the arena was a shithole. The new arena is going to be crown jewel in the middle of entertainment district in the heart of dowtown.
Alot of this, in my opinion, is the two sides negotiating through the media, so if/when it falls through, they can all point and say "Hey, look, we did the best we could"--from both sides.
No doubt that's exactly what is happening. Pittsburgh's latest proposal still isn't as good as Kansas City's -- I'm seeing what looks like the Penguins having to lay out about $10 million a year to buy out Isle of Capri's deal and contribute to the building before they start getting revenue in addition to giving up development rights on the ground they currently own. In, KC they will pay no money and get half of all building revenues.

I think Mario is playing hardball. If Pennsylvania doesn't sweeten the offer, I think KC has a chance. But I do think the posturing is to get the best deal in Pittsburgh.

cartman

01-24-2007, 02:21 PM

Houston is also in on the game as a possible relocation site. Evidently Mario is planning on making a couple of visits since he is in Dallas for the All-Star break.

Suburban Rhythm

01-24-2007, 02:25 PM

Honestly, I think the politicians have more to lose in this case. No one would blame the Lemieux group if the team ended up leaving. He stepped in to buy the team and keep it in Pittsburgh. The city and state have had plenty of time to get this ironed out and haven't done so. The government officials are playing with fire and risking losing the team.

If a city like KC can give $500 million to the Royals and Chiefs to renovate their stadiums and build a brand new $250 million arena at the same time, surely Pittsburgh can find money to build a new arena. If they can't, they maybe the Penguins shouldn't stay, which may be the conclusion that Lemieux and the other owners may be coming to at this point.

Sadly, your logical thinking would be lost on a good percentage of the Pittsburgh population. Somehow, they'd see it as Mario owing it to them (much in the same way Cowher owed the fans to not quit/tell us why he's leaving/blah blah blah). They expect the politicians to be liars.

The most recent development--Don Barden, whose group won the Pittsburgh casino license and has pledged $7.5M a year towards a building, is now involved in the sharing of revenues. In the original meeting, Barden was not present or his participation, outside of the slots revenue funding (which is technically with the state, not the Pens). The second meeting he is there, and this splitting of parking and redevelopment revenue is added. Also, yearly rent of $2M, not discussed in the first meeting, was added.

I am not saying the deal itself is not pretty sweet. However, when you put your "best deal on the table" in the first meeting, and then add a $2M a year rent AND split of previously undiscussed revenue...you've changed the deal.

My gut feeling is the deal is good enough that, if it comes to it, the NHL would step in and say a fair enough plan is in place to block the relocation.

Jonathan Ezarik

01-24-2007, 02:25 PM

No one would blame the Lemieux group if the team ended up leaving.

Not true. No one would have blamed him if the city/state hadn't put forward a good offer, but from what I've seen, the deal on the table now is pretty good. And you'd better believe that a lot of us that love Mario would turn on him in a heartbeat if he moves our team.

Jonathan Ezarik

01-24-2007, 02:30 PM

The most recent development--Don Barden, whose group won the Pittsburgh casino license and has pledged $7.5M a year towards a building, is now involved in the sharing of revenues. In the original meeting, Barden was not present or his participation, outside of the slots revenue funding (which is technically with the state, not the Pens). The second meeting he is there, and this splitting of parking and redevelopment revenue is added. Also, yearly rent of $2M, not discussed in the first meeting, was added.

I think involving Barden in the mix is what's really irked Pens ownership. It wasn't a smart move by Rendell to invite him to the meeting. But what can we expect from the Governor of Philadelphia? You know that if this was the Flyers, there never would have been any talk of the team moving. Rendell would have ensured that the state found a way to build them a new arena a long time ago.

Suburban Rhythm

01-24-2007, 02:33 PM

No doubt that's exactly what is happening. Pittsburgh's latest proposal still isn't as good as Kansas City's -- I'm seeing what looks like the Penguins having to lay out about $10 million a year to buy out Isle of Capri's deal and contribute to the building before they start getting revenue in addition to giving up development rights on the ground they currently own. In, KC they will pay no money and get half of all building revenues.

I think Mario is playing hardball. If Pennsylvania doesn't sweeten the offer, I think KC has a chance. But I do think the posturing is to get the best deal in Pittsburgh.

Right...the question comes down to:

50% of all building revenue in KC <=> 100% of building revenue + portion of parking revenue/arena development revenue + naming rights $$$ - $2M/year rental - 18% (most recent number) of total arena cost - $10M up front IOC buyout

They know, with the current market for Pens fans, and team pointed upwards, they are guaranteed many sellouts. Plus all the other revenue that comes with a new building (suites, etc). While the rent free building in KC sounds nice, if they are playing to a 60% full building, how long before it is a loss compared to what would have been generated in Pittsburgh?

And that $10M...that might be the stupidiest thing I've ever seen. Why in the world the ownership agreed to that with IOC is beyond me.

Jonathan Ezarik

01-24-2007, 02:40 PM

And that $10M...that might be the stupidiest thing I've ever seen. Why in the world the ownership agreed to that with IOC is beyond me.

If this is true, it is probably the stupidest thing ever. Almost like Mario and company wanted an excuse to get out of town if the IOC deal didn't come about. However, didn't the Pens keep $10 million from Balsillie when he withdrew his bid?

Fidatelo

01-24-2007, 02:42 PM

It's important to note that the Scouts left for Denver to become the Colorado Rockies before failing there and winding up in New Jersey. Denver seems to be doing OK second time around.

It should also be noted that the Nordiques walked into Denver and promptly won a Stanley Cup, then continued to be one of the half-dozen most dominant teams in the league for a decade. This is a pretty good recipe for success regardless of the location. If you send Winnipeg to Denver and Quebec to Phoenix...

Thankfully, for whoever gets the Penguins, there is a half-decent chance of experiencing something similar, so I could see the Penguins working in KC (just as I could see that team working in a lot of places). Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury... good grief, that's a goldmine Pittsburgh is letting slip away.

Suburban Rhythm

01-24-2007, 02:51 PM

If this is true, it is probably the stupidest thing ever. Almost like Mario and company wanted an excuse to get out of town if the IOC deal didn't come about. However, didn't the Pens keep $10 million from Balsillie when he withdrew his bid?

Yes, allegedly, they did. But, they didn't know that would happen when they signed the IOC deal. Still doesn't change the fact that was a dumb ass move.

Young Drachma

01-24-2007, 03:00 PM

Houston is also in on the game as a possible relocation site. Evidently Mario is planning on making a couple of visits since he is in Dallas for the All-Star break.

Apparently, Bettman loves the city for a relocation.

Suburban Rhythm

01-25-2007, 06:57 AM

Apparently, Bettman loves the city for a relocation.

Lemieux is in Dallas for the All-Star game...however, it appears there are no plans to visit Houston while in Texas.

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07025/756612-61.stm

While team officials haggle over details of an arena deal here, it doesn't appear that they will visit Houston this week while in Dallas for the NHL All-Star Game. There had been speculation they would travel to Houston, which is seeking a pro hockey team.

Representatives of Houston Mayor Bill White and the Harris County-Houston Sports Authority said they were not aware of any plans for a site visit.

Mayoral spokesman Frank Michel said the Penguins called earlier in the week and asked if Houston wanted to be on a short list of cities for the team if negotiations fell through in Pittsburgh. The city replied yes.

"That really was the extent of it," he said. "We understand there are negotiations going on [in Pittsburgh] and we also understand that the Penguins' intent is to try to stay there."

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-25-2007, 07:21 AM

Word this morning on the airwaves in KC is that the other cities are no longer being considered as a choice for a move per one of the members of the relocation committee here in KC. The Pens are either staying in Pittsburgh or they're moving to KC. This would seem to correlate with some comments from reps in Houston and Winnipeg.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-25-2007, 07:35 AM

They know, with the current market for Pens fans, and team pointed upwards, they are guaranteed many sellouts. Plus all the other revenue that comes with a new building (suites, etc). While the rent free building in KC sounds nice, if they are playing to a 60% full building, how long before it is a loss compared to what would have been generated in Pittsburgh?

Couple of points:

1. KC has a building ready to go and the suites are sold out. The team would have to wait 3-4 years at a minimum to get something similar together in Pittsburgh. Judging from the fact that they've dragged their feet this long, even 3-4 years may be an optimistic number.

2. They won't be playing to a 60% full building anytime soon if they move the team to KC. The relocation committee has already got commitments to fill 65% of the seats without a team even in place. The committee and arena management team (which includes people who manage the Staples Arena and have NHL exec experience) fully expect a season ticket base in the 85-90% range. Having lived in Baltimore for the past year, I know the general perception of midwest towns is far from the actual reality. There is a lot of corporate dollars and money along with a city growing at 4-5% clip annually.

3. This city fills Arrowhead for every game for many years despite not having a playoff win in 12 years. The Royals sell 1.6 million tickets in a year for a team that wins 42% of their games. If this city ever got a team like the Pens with the amount of young star power that they have, they'd fall flat on their face with excitement. The NHL has said that KC will likely get an expansion team by 2008-2009. But the powers that be realize that the players that the Pens already have in place make them a much more attractive alternative. The expansion team is just a secondary fall-back at this point.

Suburban Rhythm

01-25-2007, 07:56 AM

Couple of points:

1. KC has a building ready to go and the suites are sold out. The team would have to wait 3-4 years at a minimum to get something similar together in Pittsburgh. Judging from the fact that they've dragged their feet this long, even 3-4 years may be an optimistic number.

2. They won't be playing to a 60% full building anytime soon if they move the team to KC. The relocation committee has already got commitments to fill 65% of the seats without a team even in place. The committee and arena management team (which includes people who manage the Staples Arena and have NHL exec experience) fully expect a season ticket base in the 85-90% range. Having lived in Baltimore for the past year, I know the general perception of midwest towns is far from the actual reality. There is a lot of corporate dollars and money along with a city growing at 4-5% clip annually.

3. This city fills Arrowhead for every game for many years despite not having a playoff win in 12 years. The Royals sell 1.6 million tickets in a year for a team that wins 42% of their games. If this city ever got a team like the Pens with the amount of young star power that they have, they'd fall flat on their face with excitement. The NHL has said that KC will likely get an expansion team by 2008-2009. But the powers that be realize that the players that the Pens already have in place make them a much more attractive alternative. The expansion team is just a secondary fall-back at this point.

Guess I am generalzing...my point was though, they know what they have in Pittsburgh. The team was still well supported in 2002-2004, when they were awful.

Pittsburgh is known to them. I believe all your numbers, but it is still a risk to move.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-25-2007, 08:22 AM

Pittsburgh is known to them. I believe all your numbers, but it is still a risk to move.

Blame your city and state leaders. If the financial deals were the same, this would be over and done with already and the Pens wouldn't be going anywhere.

The Pennsylvania governor is just blowing smoke with his 'we have a better offer than KC' speech. KC is offering a sweetheart of a deal. If it weren't for the history of the franchise in Pittsburgh and the owner who's trying to find a reason to keep the team in Pittsburgh, this team would be moved already. Pittsburgh officials should be thanking their lucky stars that they have someone like Lemieux to even give their city a shot at this point. KC city leaders used to act like the Pittsburgh leaders are now. Thankfully, they've now figured out how important professional teams are to the economy and image of a town.

stevew

01-25-2007, 08:24 AM

I hope that the Governor of Philadelphia will help keep the Pens in this state. But I'm really not sure that the jackass is aware that Pittsburgh is actually within his governing region.....

Suburban Rhythm

01-25-2007, 08:29 AM

Blame your city and state leaders. If the financial deals were the same, this would be over and done with already and the Pens wouldn't be going anywhere.

The Pennsylvania governor is just blowing smoke with his 'we have a better offer than KC' speech. KC is offering a sweetheart of a deal. If it weren't for the history of the franchise in Pittsburgh and the owner who's trying to find a reason to keep the team in Pittsburgh, this team would be moved already. Pittsburgh officials should be thanking their lucky stars that they have someone like Lemieux to even give their city a shot at this point. KC city leaders used to act like the Pittsburgh leaders are now. Thankfully, they've now figured out how important professional teams are to the economy and image of a town.

Actually, it should have never gotten to the point of matching the KC deal. The building should have been done about 2 years ago. In all those PG links, you'll see quotes from one politician or another pointing out the "7 years" it's been. Lemieux bought the team in April of 1999 and then said a new building is needed to keep the team here. Promises, lies and 7+ years later, they are still working on it.

Some think the reason Burkle is taking center stage now is because he has zero connection to Pittsburgh, and if he will take much less heat than Lemieux if the team leaves. Others see it as a positive, since he's truly the $$$ in the ownership group, and Mario can be the public face to stir up the controversy.

KevinNU7

01-29-2007, 10:40 AM

Pittsburgh is known to them. I believe all your numbers, but it is still a risk to move.
Pittsburgh is also known to the owners as a place where city/state officials don't do enough for their business

SteelerFan448

01-29-2007, 08:31 PM

Arena Deal Could Be Reached This Week

Andy Sheehan
Reporting

(KDKA) PITTSBURGH The on again, off again talks between the Pittsburgh Penguins and government officials are on again.

And now it looks like there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Sources tell KDKA Investigator Andy Sheehan that the two sides are very close to a deal and if all goes well, they could have an announcement in the next few days.

Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl confirmed what sources close to the talks are saying that a deal could be imminent.

"It's my hope that sometime this week we can get back to talks with the Penguins and ultimately reach a deal," said Ravenstahl.

The two sides were actually close to a deal two weeks ago then tempers flared and talks broke off.

However, in the past week, cooler heads have prevailed and the framework of an arena deal will be on the table this week.

"Time is of the essence and we have gone back and forth," said Ravenstahl. "I'm hopeful this week that we will have an answer from the Penguins and hopefully a deal."

That would mean that not only will they two sides agree on the funding of a new arena and the divisions of revenues but also who will develop the Mellon Arena site after the old arena is torn down.

This weekend State Representative Jake Wheatley and some Hill District ministers complained of being shut out of the discussions but Ravenstahl says that will soon change.

"I can ensure the residents of the Hill District that they will be represented at the table and that any development that happens in their community will have their input," said Ravenstahl.

http://kdka.com/topstories/local_story_029161459.html

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-30-2007, 07:48 AM

Sounds like that article was written with some incomplete information. If there was advancement on a new arena, the governor certainly wasn't aware of it. Here's a toned-down version of what's going on. Basically, not a whole lot.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribunereview/sports/penguins/s_490868.html

From what I know about the newspaper business, that article title in the previous post probably wasn't selected by the author of the article. Someone probably got a bit overexcited.

kcchief19

01-30-2007, 09:30 AM

Forgive the the Pittsburgh media ... they're having a rough couple of weeks with the Steelers head coach hiring fiasco.

My impression reading the KDKA story was that they were getting played again. Both sides have been negotiating extensively through the media. I saw this as Pittsburgh positioning themselves so that if the Penguins leave they can claim that it wasn't them and the team was being unreasonable and walked away from a good deal.

I'll admit I'm biased because I want the Penguins, but I think it's put up or shut up time. Pittsburgh has the proverbial gun to its head. The Kansas City deadline is next week, and while I'm sure we would extend it, I don't think the NHL has any interest in that. If Pittsburgh can't get its act together now, I think that tells you everything you need to know.

Frankly, I think the NHL would be better leaving and returning to the Pittsburgh market once they get their head out of their ass. I firmly believe the city believes the team would never leave, and they can yank them around. We'll see if somebody blinks in the next week.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-30-2007, 09:34 AM

My impression reading the KDKA story was that they were getting played again. Both sides have been negotiating extensively through the media. I saw this as Pittsburgh positioning themselves so that if the Penguins leave they can claim that it wasn't them and the team was being unreasonable and walked away from a good deal.

Frankly, I think the NHL would be better leaving and returning to the Pittsburgh market once they get their head out of their ass. I firmly believe the city believes the team would never leave, and they can yank them around. We'll see if somebody blinks in the next week.

I think that most in Pittsburgh agree with your first comment.

I totally agree with your second comment. Even KC was smart enough to not try to bluff to that level with the Royals and the Chiefs. The fact that it's not a done deal yet speaks volumes.

Ryche

01-30-2007, 09:43 AM

If hockey can leave Minnesota, it sure as hell can leave Pittsburgh.

Suburban Rhythm

01-30-2007, 11:07 AM

Frankly, I think the NHL would be better leaving and returning to the Pittsburgh market once they get their head out of their ass.

That may never happen!

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-31-2007, 07:38 AM

Not sounding good for Pittsburgh. No meetings scheduled for this week and the mayor expects a decision at the end of the week. Seriously, if I was the mayor, I'd be calling Mario every 15 minutes, 24x7. At least make the ownership think you want them to stay and maybe they'll take the worse deal and not leave town......

Pittsburgh mayor expects word from Pens this week
ESPN.com news services

PITTSBURGH -- The city's mayor says he expects to know soon if the Penguins will remain in Pittsburgh and move into a new arena, or leave, most likely for Kansas City, at the end of this season.

"I anticipate that sometime this week we will have an answer," Mayor Luke Ravenstahl told the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review on Monday. "There will be some kind of dialogue back and forth this week."

The Tribune-Review reported that Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell and Penguins co-owner Ron Burkle spoke on Monday, but that another face-to-face meeting between the two sides has not been scheduled.

"We're making progress, but there is no deal by any means as of yet," Rendell said Monday of the situation. Asked about Ravenstahl's comments about a decision being made this week, Rendell said, "That could be."

Penguins officials declined to comment, the newspaper reported.

The team's lease at Mellon Arena, the oldest building in the NHL, expires in June. Last week at the NHL All-Star Game in Dallas, team co-owner Mario Lemieux said the time was drawing near for the Penguins to decide whether to stay or to relocate.

The Penguins have not asked the league for permission to move, but have "reserved their right to make a formal relocation application" if they don't get an arena deal, deputy commissioner Bill Daly told the Tribune-Review.

Last week, Rendell said the city and state proposal for a new arena already was the best given any of Pennsylvania's seven major pro sports teams, and he threatened to take his case to the NHL Board of Governors if the Penguins attempted to move.

Lemieux said at the team's negotiating session with Rendell, county and city leaders took a step backward because of a request the team share revenues from a redevelopment of the Mellon Arena site with casino operator Don Barden.

Barden was chosen last month by the state gaming board to build the only slots machine parlor license granted in Pittsburgh. Barden has agreed to contribute $7.5 million per year toward a new arena, but also wants to redevelop the area around Mellon Arena, where the Penguins have played since 1967.

The Sprint Center in Kansas City has offered the Penguins free rent and revenue sharing if they move to the city, which had an NHL team -- the current New Jersey Devils franchise -- in 1974-76.

14ers

01-31-2007, 06:51 PM

3. The Royals sell 1.6 million tickets in a year for a team that wins 42% of their games.

You really shouldn't bring the Royals into this.

2006 KC Attendance 1,372,684

Even the lowly Pittsburgh Pirates managed to sell half a million more tickets than the Royals in 2006.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

Dr. Sak

01-31-2007, 06:58 PM

Well on the plus side for Pittsburgh, Mario hasn't talked to the people in KC since their first and only meeting.

I think that the NHL wants to keep the team in Pittsburgh and will force the current owners to take whatever deal the city/state gives them as long as it is some what reasonable. The Pens are right now playing at 95% capacity for each home game. I honestly would be surprised if the Pens would move now.

SteelerFan448

01-31-2007, 08:35 PM

Reports now are that as long as the talks continue to progress, they could be done within the next 24 hours and there could be an announcement as soon as Friday. On the otherhand, there are still the possibility of a setback during the talks.

sterlingice

01-31-2007, 10:05 PM

You really shouldn't bring the Royals into this.

2006 KC Attendance 1,372,684

Even the lowly Pittsburgh Pirates managed to sell half a million more tickets than the Royals in 2006.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

Should we point out now or later that the Pirates have a new stadium?

SI

Swaggs

01-31-2007, 10:38 PM

Should we point out now or later that the Pirates have a new stadium?

SI

Stadium had nothing to do with it.

You should, however, point out that the Pirates hosted the All-Star game and strong-armed their fans to buy season tickets if they wanted a chance to attend it.

kcchief19

01-31-2007, 10:49 PM

Stadium had nothing to do with it.

You should, however, point out that the Pirates hosted the All-Star game and strong-armed their fans to buy season tickets if they wanted a chance to attend it.
Both had something to do with it. New stadiums bring fans. If the team sucks, it won't accelerate attendance as much, but it's better than a sharp poke in the eye.

Swaggs

01-31-2007, 11:33 PM

Both had something to do with it. New stadiums bring fans. If the team sucks, it won't accelerate attendance as much, but it's better than a sharp poke in the eye.

I don't disagree, but the new stadium is six-years old and the novelty of its newness has worn off (although it is a fantastic ballpark). It did cause a significant spike in its first season, when the team went from 1.7M to 2.4M in attendance. But, the Pirates' front office made a terrible PR move after their initial season at PNC Park, as they significantly raised ticket prices (for the second consecutive season) after losing 100 games. The ticket price increase caused a lot of ill will towards ownership and the team, and they did not get the 2-3 year wave of increased attendance that the novelty of a new stadium normally provides.

In the five seasons after PNC's opening season attendance spike, they have been within roughly 5% of the 1.7M they had in their last season at Three Rivers, except for last season, when the All-Star game interest drove their attendance up near 1.9M.

By the way, the on-field product (AKA, the Pirates) are, sadly, not much of a factor, as they have not had a winning record since 1992 and the fan support has grown decidedly apathetic with ownership failing to field a competitive team AND pocketing 10s of millions of dollars in revenue sharing.

devynd

01-31-2007, 11:49 PM

As far as I can tell, from living in the Pittsburgh area, the whole Kansas City thing is only a negotiating ploy to get a better deal here. Whether Kansas City's offer is better than Pittsburgh's is irrelevant; all that matters is whether the offer here is good enough to make staying worthwhile. The chief reason for the delay is that the current arena lease doesn't expire until June and the slots licenses weren't granted until the last month or two. (The Pens' partner Isle of Capri would have contributed the entire cost of a new arena, but they didn't get the license; because the Pens had an exclusive deal with IOC -- in the hopes that such a deal would clinch the license for IOC -- they couldn't do much negotiating until after IOC was denied the license.)

Nine years ago the local and state governments pushed through a "Plan B" to use tax money to build a new football stadium and a new baseball park in Pittsburgh, even in the face of public opposition and in the wake of a tax referendum that went down by a 2-1 margin in 10 of 11 counties. There is certainly the political will to do whatever the government feels like doing regardless of what anyone else wants. No one has given any real reason to believe that anything in the past few weeks has been anything but posturing by both sides to get the best deal possible.

Things will be what they will be, but it sounds like Kansas City has some good hockey fans, and if so, it's a shame to see you set yourselves up for disappointment. The Pens aren't going anywhere except the playoffs. And it's about time.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-01-2007, 06:33 AM

Things will be what they will be, but it sounds like Kansas City has some good hockey fans, and if so, it's a shame to see you set yourselves up for disappointment. The Pens aren't going anywhere except the playoffs. And it's about time.

I can see that you're obviously a big Pens fan, but it sounds like you're not fully aware of the situation. KC is going to get a franchise one way or the other. If the Pens don't end up coming to KC, the NHL has all but given one of the two expansion franchises which are expected in 2008 or 2009. The only difference with the Pens is that they'd be here one year earlier and obviously have a roster with some young players already in place.

Also, your exact attitude in believing that this is nothing more than posturing is what has lost many a city a sports franchise. Never assume that they aren't serious. They are and they will move if their needs aren't met. People don't get in a situation where they can lose millions of dollars just because they are really attached to a city. They're invested in that team to make money.

Swaggs

02-01-2007, 07:28 AM

Is it fairly common info that there will be expansion in 2008/09? That seems like a pretty odd move for a league that has regressed so much in the past few seasons. Will the NHL ever get a national television deal again?

I am one fan that the NHL lost--not so much out of protest, but rather because I saw that my life went on just fine without following it (I got more interested in NCAA basketball, I guess). I still read up about the Pens as much as I can, but I only see them 3-5 times a year, since I now live out of their viewing area. So, I hope a national TV deal with a Fox or ESPN is on the horizon.

Suburban Rhythm

02-01-2007, 07:38 AM

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07032/758485-61.stm

Best Jim Mora voice-

"Tulsa? TULSA!?"

Fidatelo

02-01-2007, 08:00 AM

Is it fairly common info that there will be expansion in 2008/09?

I don't think it is by any means a certainty. Bettman and some of the owners would probably be all over it, but Bettman is also possibly on the way out after '08 (his contract ends and there are already rumors of people being contacted about becoming the new commish). I'd say there is a chance of expansion, but I think Mizzou is being a little optimistic at this point.

14ers

02-01-2007, 08:10 AM

Is it fairly common info that there will be expansion in 2008/09? That seems like a pretty odd move for a league that has regressed so much in the past few seasons. Will the NHL ever get a national television deal again?

Does this count?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/Nhlnbc.jpg

2006-07 NHL season

For the 2006-2007 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006-07_NHL_season), NBC will reportedly broadcast three regional games for nine weekend dates during the regular season. They will also broadcast on ten dates during the playoffs (not including Stanley Cup Finals). The additional broadcast windows are expected to replace the Arena Football League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_AFL_on_NBC), which NBC dropped after the 2006 season.
The newly monikered NHL on NBC Game of the Week is tentatively scheduled to premiere for a second season January 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_13), 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_in_television) with three regional games (LA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Kings) vs. STL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Blues_%28hockey%29), BOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Bruins) vs. NYR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Rangers), PIT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Penguins) vs. PHI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Flyers)) at 2:00 p.m. ET (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Eastern_Time_Zone). Games will start at various times and various days this season, ranging everywhere from 12:30 to 3:30 during the season (this variation primarily results from NBC's commitments to the PGA Tour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGA_Tour) and other programming). A few games aired only on the West Coast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_of_the_United_States) (and on NHL Center Ice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_Center_Ice)) will begin at 6:00 p.m. ET, although NBC is cutting back on such games this season.
It was also rumored that NBC wanted to broadcast an annual outdoor game (specifically, the New York Rangers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Rangers) vs. the New York Islanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Islanders) at Yankee Stadium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee_Stadium)), but this will not happen until at least 2007-08 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007-08_NHL_season). Having lost rights to the Gator Bowl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gator_Bowl) on New Year's Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Day) to CBS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBS), the possibility of doing a New Year's Day game has increased, assuming NBC renews its broadcast contract.
The NHL on NBC will make a move to Sundays after its season premiere (listed above) for the final eight dates of the season. NBC's nine games amounts to the most U.S. broadcast television coverage the league has had since 1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997-98_NHL_season), on FOX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOX_NHL_Saturday).

Suburban Rhythm

02-01-2007, 08:12 AM

BREAKING NEWS...from the other local paper. But, bear in mind, this is the paper that reported Russ Grimm as head coach 2 days prior to Tomlin accepting the job.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/penguins/s_491255.html

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-01-2007, 08:51 AM

I don't think it is by any means a certainty. Bettman and some of the owners would probably be all over it, but Bettman is also possibly on the way out after '08 (his contract ends and there are already rumors of people being contacted about becoming the new commish). I'd say there is a chance of expansion, but I think Mizzou is being a little optimistic at this point.

The NHL committee here in KC has been told by the NHL that there is a 90% chance that a team will be in KC for 08-09 and a near certainty that there will be one in 09-10. They were told that it would be first in line for expansion when it occurs. This was as of earlier in the week.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-01-2007, 09:32 AM

Little less emotion built into this article. Basically says a deal might be coming, but it's anything but done and time is running out. Conspiracy theorists probably would say this is the politicians feeding stuff to make the Pens management look bad if they back out in the end.

http://kdka.com/local/local_story_031155623.html

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-01-2007, 10:54 AM

Looks like the 'source' underestimated the ability of Pittsburgh politicians to screw up. If there's one thing that I've learned from this whole situation, it's that Pittsburgh needs to elect a whole new set of city leaders. No deal done yet and there may, in fact, have been a setback in the negotiations.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=194369&hubname=

Fidatelo

02-01-2007, 11:27 AM

Mizzou, I find it interesting that you consider the "Penguins in Pittsburgh" deal to be far from certain, and yet at the same time feel the "Team in KC by '09" deal to be a virtual lock.

14ers

02-01-2007, 12:01 PM

Does this count?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/Nhlnbc.jpg

The additional broadcast windows are expected to replace the Arena Football League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_AFL_on_NBC), which NBC dropped after the 2006 season.
I can't believe I missed this statement in my own post.

Anyone know where the Arena Football League is going? I know John Elway lost his car dealership deal in denver, did he also lose his football team?

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-01-2007, 12:02 PM

Mizzou, I find it interesting that you consider the "Penguins in Pittsburgh" deal to be far from certain, and yet at the same time feel the "Team in KC by '09" deal to be a virtual lock.

Two totally different situations.

The information concerning the Pens and their deal came straight from TSN.com, who is a very reliable source. That's certainly not my words. The deal is not done at all, contrary to the story this morning. The head of the NHL committee in KC has always openly stated that the Pens deal is 50/50 whether they stay or move to KC. He has also always stated that if the team moves, the blame would definitely be on the Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania leaders and not the Pens ownership. Few would disagree with that statement after 7 years of waiting for an arena.

As far as KC having a team by 09-10, that's directly from Bettman and the NHL leaders regarding an expansion team. KC has been the #1 choice for expansion as soon as the new arena was approved. All KC is doing is trying to grab a team even earlier than that.

All that is direct information. None of that is my opinion whatsoever.

Wolfpack

02-01-2007, 12:19 PM

I can't believe I missed this statement in my own post.

Anyone know where the Arena Football League is going?

To ESPN/ABC since I believe Disney (through those outlets) now has part ownership of the league.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-01-2007, 12:39 PM

FYI......for those that are curious about the NHL 21 committee here in KC, here's the info on them. It's available on the web, so I'm not giving away any private information here.

NHL 21 Address:

Paul McGannon/Tom Rieger
NHL21
1209 W. 66th Terr.
Kansas City, Missouri 64113
Phone: 913-219-7774
Fax: 816-444-3250

Paul McGannon is the one that is in constant contact with the NHL regarding getting a team in KC in the near future. He's also the one that has said that the NHL told him that a team in KC by 09-10 is a near certainly.

Fidatelo

02-01-2007, 12:43 PM

Two totally different situations.

The information concerning the Pens and their deal came straight from TSN.com, who is a very reliable source. That's certainly not my words. The deal is not done at all, contrary to the story this morning. The head of the NHL committee in KC has always openly stated that the Pens deal is 50/50 whether they stay or move to KC. He has also always stated that if the team moves, the blame would definitely be on the Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania leaders and not the Pens ownership. Few would disagree with that statement after 7 years of waiting for an arena.

As far as KC having a team by 09-10, that's directly from Bettman and the NHL leaders regarding an expansion team. KC has been the #1 choice for expansion as soon as the new arena was approved. All KC is doing is trying to grab a team even earlier than that.

All that is direct information. None of that is my opinion whatsoever.

In regards to the Penguins, I agree with you, nothing is done so who knows.

In regards to expansion, you are ignoring the fact that no one has made a decision on expansion. I agree, if the NHL expands KC is candidate #1 for a team. That's a big 'if' though, because just like with the Penguins situation, nothing has been finalized.

I just think you are looking at it through slightly rose-colored glasses and I wanted to point it out.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-01-2007, 12:46 PM

I just think you are looking at it through slightly rose-colored glasses and I wanted to point it out.

Fair enough.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-01-2007, 12:48 PM

PA governor now stating that deal is not close, though they have submitted a revised offer. This is the same guy that said he was very optimistic earlier in the week.

***insert government officials finding way to blame ownership when they leave***

http://post-gazette.com/pg/07032/758616-100.stm

duff88

02-01-2007, 09:39 PM

Anyone else watched the Canadiens-Penguins game tonight? It was probably the game of the year; it looked like a playoffs matchup and the crowd at the Mellon Arena was electric, simply one of the most intense and excited crowd I've seen in the entire year.

As someone on HFBoards said, this game needs to be taped and shipped nationwide through the US.

devynd

02-02-2007, 12:25 AM

KC is going to get a franchise one way or the other.
[snip]
<SNIP>
Also, your exact attitude in believing that this is nothing more than posturing is what has lost many a city a sports franchise. Never assume that they aren't serious. They are and they will move if their needs aren't met. People don't get in a situation where they can lose millions of dollars just because they are really attached to a city. They're invested in that team to make money.

My attitude isn't really relevant, as I am not part of the negotiations. However, I take the negotiations seriously and I believe that both sides do as well. My point is this: when Mario visited KC, his chief purpose (as I see it) was to push for a better deal in Pittsburgh by showing that the Pens are serious about moving if they don't get a deal to their liking. In other words, Kansas City is getting used. I've seen it happen to other cities before, particularly Tampa/St. Pete in baseball and Jacksonville in football; fortunately they got expansion teams eventually.

I don't assume that the Pens are irrevocably attached to Pittsburgh -- although it should be clear that they certainly have no attachment to any other city. What I do see is that the two sides (the Pens and local/state government) have both the means and the will to make a deal, and especially with the league coming out in support of the Pens staying, and what a big PR disaster it would be for Crosby's team to leave town, there is sufficient pressure on both sides to ensure that they won't walk away from the table if anything workable is there.

I am in no position to say that a move is impossible, but I can certainly say with complete confidence that fans in Kansas City should not be putting their hopes into it. The chance of moving is nowhere near 50%; it might be as little as 1%. If and when Kansas City gets a team of any kind, so much the better for the fans there, but you're only setting yourself up for disappointment if you're so strongly expecting the arrival of a team that probably isn't coming.

Suburban Rhythm

02-02-2007, 08:01 AM

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-02-2007, 08:17 AM

I don't assume that the Pens are irrevocably attached to Pittsburgh -- although it should be clear that they certainly have no attachment to any other city. What I do see is that the two sides (the Pens and local/state government) have both the means and the will to make a deal, and especially with the league coming out in support of the Pens staying, and what a big PR disaster it would be for Crosby's team to leave town, there is sufficient pressure on both sides to ensure that they won't walk away from the table if anything workable is there.

I am in no position to say that a move is impossible, but I can certainly say with complete confidence that fans in Kansas City should not be putting their hopes into it. The chance of moving is nowhere near 50%; it might be as little as 1%. If and when Kansas City gets a team of any kind, so much the better for the fans there, but you're only setting yourself up for disappointment if you're so strongly expecting the arrival of a team that probably isn't coming.

Just to correct a couple of inaccuracies in your points. First, if the government had the means to get a deal done, any chance they might have got it done in the last 7 years that this has been an issue? It's one thing to play hardball, but when you're doing it for 7 years while handing the other franchises new stadiums, that's not going to excite the Pens management. Also, the NHL has been quite clear that they are not going to force the Pens to do anything. They have clearly stated to both the KC group and the Pens that they are free to move if no deal is done by the soft deadline of February 4th that was put into place.

50/50 means there's just as good of a chance of them staying as there is going. Certainly that's not 'strongly expecting'. Also, I do find it amusing that there have been sites and people in Pittsburgh attacking KC for trying to land the team. KC just wants to have hockey. If KC didn't step in to offer the team an alternative, you can be assured that another city would. The Pens fans should point their venom at the city and state leaders, not KC (This comment was in no way intended for anyone in this thread as a put-down as it hasn't happened here).

Suburban Rhythm

02-02-2007, 08:22 AM

http://www.cafepress.com/helpthepens.98803805

Proudly wearing this shirt to work today--
With no offense to Mizzou b-ball!

Pumpy Tudors

02-02-2007, 08:31 AM

Anyone know where the Arena Football League is going? I know John Elway lost his car dealership deal in denver, did he also lose his football team?
As already pointed out, the AFL is just switching networks. As for the health of the AFL, it's doing just fine. Elway's team will contend as always, Bon Jovi's team is going to be on television more than President Bush, and the VooDoo is back.

Go AFL!

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-02-2007, 09:16 AM

http://www.cafepress.com/helpthepens.98803805

Proudly wearing this shirt to work today--
With no offense to Mizzou b-ball!

LOL! That's what I'm talking about. I'm sure this entrepeneur has similar 'Houston', 'Winnipeg', 'Hamilton', and 'Oklahoma City' shirts ready to go in case the tide changes.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-02-2007, 09:20 AM

Suburban Rhythm

02-02-2007, 09:29 AM

Still no deal. Interesting that Pittsburgh city leaders would like to have meetings next week, but Pens owners have balked thus far. The Pens said they would give KC a go/no go by Sunday. Should be interesting with no deal in place at this point.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07033/758870-61.stm

I'm in Pittsburgh...but I've given up trying to follow it already. Tired of hearing the politicians tell us how hard they are working now, after 7 years of nothing, but tired, too, of the ownership group telling us how upset they are, etc etc.

So many wildly conflicting reports, someone just let me know when the decision is made. Until then, I'll just enjoy a team playing REALLY well right now.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-02-2007, 02:09 PM

Source within ownership group now saying that Penguins owners are looking to accelerate talks with Kansas City. I'm sure some Pittsburgh fans will just say they're using KC to get a deal, but at some point, it becomes a situation where Pittsburgh really needs to step to the plate or the Pens are walking. Take it from a fan in a city who's lost pro teams in the past.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07033/758954-61.stm

Pumpy Tudors

02-02-2007, 02:13 PM

If I've learned anything from all this, it's the reasons not to negotiate through the media. We've gotten 200 different reports over the past month, and, frankly, we still don't know shit.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-02-2007, 02:21 PM

If I've learned anything from all this, it's the reasons not to negotiate through the media. We've gotten 200 different reports over the past month, and, frankly, we still don't know shit.

Oh, I think you can read a lot into the latest article. The owners are now throwing out one final bluff of sorts. They're implying they're serious about moving and that Pittsburgh has to improve their offer. We went from the Pittsburgh people meeting with the owners early next week to the KC people meeting with the owners early next week. Pittsburgh probably has one last chance to improve their offer. The Pitt owners would have already accepted the KC deal if they weren't willing to give Pittsburgh leaders one more shot.

Pumpy Tudors

02-02-2007, 02:22 PM

Oh, I think you can read a lot into the latest article. The owners are now throwing out one final bluff of sorts. They're implying they're serious about moving and that Pittsburgh has to improve their offer. We went from the Pittsburgh people meeting with the owners early next week to the KC people meeting with the owners early next week. Pittsburgh probably has one last chance to improve their offer. The Pitt owners would have already accepted the KC deal if they weren't willing to give Pittsburgh leaders one more shot.
The same thing could have been said a month ago.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-02-2007, 02:28 PM

The same thing could have been said a month ago.

The difference is that the NHL and the Pens have told Pittsburgh that they need to decide quickly (NHL set Sunday, Feb. 4th as the target date for a decision). While they may not meet that, the fact that they are ready to proceed in talks with KC on Sunday is a pretty good indicator what they think of the Pittsburgh 'revised' offer.

I'm sure we're going to know a lot more on Monday.

kcchief19

02-06-2007, 05:20 PM

Anybody hear anything? I actually was in a meeting with someone today who would be in the know and he told me that it's not looking good for the Penguins coming here. Sigh.

We're going to get and NHL team ... I just wanted a good NHL team. :)

Jonathan Ezarik

02-06-2007, 05:30 PM

I haven't heard anything new. I wouldn't mind KC having a team, just not my Pens. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the Preds move out of Nashville. They've got the best record in the league but they can't sell out at home?

devynd

02-07-2007, 11:25 AM

Anybody hear anything?

There hasn't been any word here since last week, and even then it was the usual rumors. I'm not sure if we'll really know anything until a deal is actually completed. Beyond that, I'm not sure if it would be productive to say much more here until the matter is resolved.

As far as KC getting a good team, it really didn't take that long for most of the recent expansion teams to get good, so if you get an expansion team that isn't necessarily bad news -- and it's not as if the Pens weren't playing like an expansion team the last few seasons.

Jonathan Ezarik

02-07-2007, 11:46 AM

I really hope the NHL doesn't expand. I think it's too big as it is right now.

KevinNU7

02-14-2007, 09:03 AM

I'm not dead yet

Wolfpack

02-14-2007, 11:25 AM

I'm not dead yet

As a matter of fact, I just wrote an article for Redbook.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-05-2007, 02:08 PM

Big news coming out of Pittsburgh. Pens have called off talks and are now aggressively looking to move to Kansas City. Given that the deal is already on the table and the Pens like it, this may not take long..........

Pens not very likely to stay in Pittsburgh....
Penguins declare impasse in arena talks
Will pursue other offers aggressively, letter says

Monday, March 05, 2007
By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The Penguins have declared an impasse in negotiations with government officials over construction of a new arena and will aggressively explore relocating the team to a new city.

Penguins co-owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle notified Gov. Ed Rendell, Allegheny County Chief Executive Dan Onorato and Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl about their decision in a letter today.

The team is declaring an impasse even though it has agreed to pay $3.6 million a year in rent, plus another $400,000 a year in capital expenses, for an annual contribution of $4 million, for a new arena.

They also have agreed to pay $500,000 for a parking garage to be built as part of the arena complex.

Despite that, the parties have been unable to reach an agreement.

"Unfortunately, we still don't have a deal and are faced with mounting uncertainty that an agreement can be reached in a time frame that is realistic for our organization," the letter states. "Therefore, we have no choice but to declare an impasse and to notify NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman that we will aggressively explore relocation."

The team owners also said in the letter that Friday's appeals on the Pittsburgh slots license "cause us great concern." Don Barden, the winning casino bidder, has pledged $7.5 million a year from slots proceeds toward an arena. But with appeals filed against the award, construction of the casino could be delayed and it is not clear when arena payments could begin.

"A project of this scope, with so many complex issues, can ill afford further delays that add more risk and more uncertainty," the letter continues. "The risk has been magnified by what we perceive as a lack of collaboration from the public sector in the negotiations."

One of the last straws came Friday when public officials refused to share interest rate information with the team regarding the state's financial assumptions, according to sources close to the Penguins.

The Penguins have increased their contribution from $2.86 million per year, which was part of the original offer that was presented by state and local leaders at a meeting Jan. 4.

The team now is expected to be more aggressive in bargaining with Kansas City, which has a nearly finished new arena but no hockey team.

The declaration of an impasse doesn't mean the Penguins have definitely decided to leave, but at this point there is no indication they intend to talk any more with local officials.

The team said it had already extended its original deadline of early February because it was interested in staying in Pittsburgh.

"Our good faith efforts have not produced a deal, however, and have only added more anxiety to what we thought at best was a risky proposition for us moving forward."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07064/767020-100.stm

kcchief19

03-05-2007, 03:37 PM

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-05-2007, 04:38 PM

Funny thing is that this morning on the radio here in KC they were interviewing a reporter in Pittsburgh who said that the negotiations were down to who would cover cost overruns. The word here was that the Penguins thought the building would cost $290 million but the state thought it would come in at $270 million. It sounds like Rendell was trying to put pressure on the Penguins to pick up the overruns and they have no interest in that. The reporter put the chance of the Penguins leavin at "10 percent."

Funny thing is, this is what went through my head when I heard the report this morning: "Too bad, sounds like we won't get the Penguins. Wait a minute -- the way these negotiations are going, they'll probably be in Kansas City by the end of the week."

Pittsburgh's warning message was early last month when the Penguin management gave the indication that they would consider KC. That last threat was more of a power play by the Penguins management. This time, it's a 'we've had enough' message. Reportedly, the Pens have just about had it with the local and county government. Too bad as it seems that Rendall actually had Pittsburgh's best interests in mind despite his Philly roots.

Pitt's loss is KC's gain. I'd love to watch Crosby play in KC for the next 10-15 years.

kcchief19

03-05-2007, 08:50 PM

It's hard to trust what is happening because both sides have used he media as a negotiating tool. Granted, this is the last straw. Time is running out and the only bluff the Pens have left is to go to the city saying they've got Kansas City's offer and are ready to sign. If the city caves and agrees to cover overruns, they're going to stay in Pittsburgh.

I'm unsure on what signals we're getting on he prospects of this happening. Del Biaggio had said a season ticket drive would start after the first of the year, and that hasn't happened yet. If this happens, I'm going to try to find a way to buy season tickets. It would be a blast.

stevew

03-05-2007, 08:57 PM

This whole thing would go smoother if Fast Eddie wasn't trying to make sure he came out ahead on the deal in his own interests. Four more fucking years of the state of Philadelphia.

JonInMiddleGA

03-05-2007, 09:26 PM

Four more fucking years of the state of Philadelphia.

Until looking it up out of idle curiosity (or maybe not quite idle since I did do something about it), I never consciously realized that the Philly metro area was so close to making up half the population of Pennsylvania. Almost 48%, 5.8 million of 12.4 million, according to the 2005 pop. estimates.

By comparison, Atlanta metro is 54% of Georgia's estimated '05 population.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 06:56 AM

Lemieux didn't pull any punches in the letter to the gov't officials.........

March 5, 2007

Dear Governor Rendell, County Executive Onorato and Mayor Ravenstahl:

Nearly eight years ago we bought the Penguins out of bankruptcy and have worked ever since to try to get a new multi-purpose arena. Now, with a growing sense of urgency because our lease at Mellon Arena expires in June, we have engaged in two months of negotiations on your "Plan B" proposal. We agreed to pay $3.6 million in annual rent as part of our proposal to keep the team in Pittsburgh. We also agreed to pay $400,000 a year in capital expenses, for an annual contribution of $4 million. This amounts to $120 million over 30 years. In addition, we agreed to be at risk for cost overruns. We can do no more.

Unfortunately, we still don't have a deal and are faced with mounting uncertainty that an agreement can be reached in a time frame that is realistic for our organization. Therefore, we have no choice but to declare an impasse and to notify NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman that we will aggressively explore relocation.

This is a disappointing but necessary conclusion, given the uncertainty that exists as we attempt to move forward. The recent appeals filed with the Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board, which may delay even further the awarding of the slots license and the primary funding source of the arena plan, cause us great concern. A project of this scope, with so many complex issues, can ill afford further delays that add more risk and more uncertainty.

The risk has been magnified by what we perceive as a lack of collaboration from the public sector in the negotiations. That does not bode well for the public/private partnership necessary to successfully navigate the multiple issues of an arena development of this magnitude.

On January 4, we visited Kansas City and were greeted with open arms by arena officials and political and business leaders and were treated as valued new partners in the community. The terms of the deal offered in Kansas City were for a rent-free arena with no risk of cost overruns and no risk to arena funding. The arena is scheduled to open for next season.

Despite this great offer, we wanted to keep the team in Pittsburgh and thought we owed it to our fans to do everything we could to make it work here. With that in mind, and on behalf of our organization, our loyal fans and the Pittsburgh region, we have made a single-minded effort to bring this new arena process to a successful conclusion and keep the team in Pittsburgh. Since the January 4 meeting we have played by the rules, extended our original deadline by 30 days, declined to visit any other cities and sought to work with you to try to finalize a deal.

Our good-faith efforts have not produced a deal, however, and have only added more anxiety to what we thought at best was a risky proposition for us moving forward. Those risks and the fact that our lease expires in less than four months leave us with no choice but to explore every option to ensure the long-term future of the Penguins organization.

Sincerely,

Mario Lemieux

Ron Burkle

cc: Gary Bettman, Commissioner

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 06:58 AM

Sounds like Rendall may not have been quite as helpful as I previously implied in another post. 'Table-pounding outburst' is probably not the best way to get a deal done......

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07065/767149-61.stm

Penguins' arena negotiations on thin ice
Tuesday, March 06, 2007

By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The Penguins dropped the gloves in negotiations over a new arena yesterday, declaring an impasse in the talks and saying they would "aggressively explore relocation."

The decision surprised Allegheny County Chief Executive Dan Onorato and Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl, both of whom insisted they thought the two sides were close to a deal to keep the team in Pittsburgh.

But Penguins co-owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle painted a far different picture in a letter to Mr. Ravenstahl, Mr. Onorato and Gov. Ed Rendell, saying they still haven't been able to reach a deal even though they have agreed to pay $4 million a year toward a new arena -- the same amount demanded by public officials nearly a year ago.

"Therefore, we have no choice but to declare an impasse and to notify [National Hockey League] Commissioner Gary Bettman that we will aggressively explore relocation," the letter said. "This is a disappointing but necessary conclusion, given the uncertainty that exists as we attempt to move forward."

The decision could push the team closer to a move to Kansas City, where the Penguins have been offered the new $276 million Sprint Center rent-free with no construction costs and half the building revenues.

Toward that end, team officials may meet this week with representatives for the Anschutz Entertainment Group, which will manage the Sprint Center and share revenues with the team.

William "Boots" Del Biaggio, the California venture capitalist who has an agreement in place with AEG to run an NHL franchise at the Sprint Center in Kansas City if he can procure one, had no comment on the letter.

A source speaking on condition of anonymity said, "I just can't see them leaving Pittsburgh. I think they're still negotiating, and this is a way to get the governor's office serious about completing the final details."

AEG President Tim Lewieke told the Kansas City Star last weekend that there are dates on hold for the team, but added he would "be very surprised if Pittsburgh came Kansas City's way."

The Penguins' Mellon Arena lease expires June 30.

Declaring an impasse does not mean the team will move, and sources close to the Penguins would not rule out further talks with state and local officials.

Both Mr. Onorato and Mr. Ravenstahl vowed to reach out to the team to try to resolve the latest flare-up.

Officials were scrambling last night to try to set up a meeting with the Penguins later this week.

"At the end of the day, I think we all have the same interests in mind, and that is to get a deal done and to keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh. We are prepared to sit back down as soon as possible, and that could be as long or as short as the Penguins want it to be," Mr. Ravenstahl said.

Frank Brown, a spokesman for Mr. Bettman, said the commissioner, who has been serving as a go-between in the talks, is aware of the latest developments and is in touch with the parties.

"Any further comment at this point would not be constructive," he said.

A spokesman for Mr. Rendell, who declared the two sides "very close" to a deal last week, declined comment.

The mayor wouldn't rule out an appeal to the NHL to block a move if it came to that. He said public officials didn't believe they would have to use that option because "we feel that we have a competitive deal on the table."

"But certainly, if it's something that we have to resort to as a last-ditch effort, it's something we'd certainly consider before we let the team leave," he said.

In their letter, team owners said appeals filed by Isle of Capri Casinos Inc. and Forest City Enterprises over the Pittsburgh casino license Friday "cause us great concern." Both casino license winner Don Barden and Forest City had pledged $7.5 million a year toward the arena, but that major funding source is now tied up in litigation before the state Supreme Court.

"A project of this scope, with so many complex issues, can ill afford further delays that add more risk and more uncertainty," the letter stated. "The risk has been magnified by what we perceive as a lack of collaboration from the public sector in the negotiations."

The declaration of an impasse came even though the two sides appeared to be close to agreement on major financial terms.

In addition to the $7.5 million a year committed by Mr. Barden, the state has agreed to contribute $7.5 million a year from a gambling-backed economic development fund, an increase of $500,000 over the amount originally proposed in the Plan B funding formula.

That formula initially called for the Penguins to contribute $4 million a year, including $1.16 million annually in naming rights, plus an upfront contribution of $8.5 million.

By the time state and local officials met with Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle Jan. 4, the team's share had dropped to $2.86 million a year, according to sources close to the Penguins. The upfront share would be covered by the sale of the Penguins-owned former St. Francis Central Hospital, needed for the new arena, to the city-county Sports & Exhibition Authority.

The Penguins' share later increased after local officials dropped a proposal to use amusement tax revenue to raise $1.2 million a year. That pushed the team share to $3.6 million a year, plus another $400,000 annually for capital expenses. The team also has agreed to pay $500,000 a year for a parking garage to be part of the arena complex.

Sources close to the Penguins say, however, it's not so much the financial terms as it is a perceived lack of collaboration from public officials that has led to the impasse. They said the tone from the public side has been unduly adversarial for the last two months, including a table-pounding outburst by Mr. Rendell during a Jan. 18 meeting.

The last straw, according to those sources, came Friday, when state officials refused to share interest rate information with the team regarding the financing of the arena. The Penguins believe the two pots of gambling related revenues, plus their share, should be enough to pay for a $290 million arena; state officials indicated there's still a gap.

While the Penguins complained about a lack of collaboration from public officials, Mr. Onorato said public officials have sensed the same adversarial tone from the Penguins.

"I would say that our feelings would probably be the exact same as theirs but in reverse," he said. "But I just assumed that's part of negotiation and you ultimately get to a point where both sides agree."

Neither he nor Mr. Ravenstahl saw the appeals of the casino license as a major impediment, pointing out that all three applicants had agreed to help finance an arena.

In their letter, Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle said they had extended their deadline for replying to Kansas City officials by 30 days because they wanted to stay in Pittsburgh.

"Our good-faith efforts have not produced a deal, however, and have only added more anxiety to what we thought at best was a risky proposition for us moving forward," the letter stated.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 09:02 AM

More info coming out of KC. Sounds like the key is going to be whether Lemieux comes to visit KC again. If he visits KC on Thursday or Friday, expect a deal to move the franchise to KC.

Reports are that Bettman is pushing the Penguins management to make a decision one way or the other in the next couple of weeks because planning by the league for next season's schedule is being held up at this point until they figure out where the Pens will be located. Evidently the league likes to plan road trips to minimize travel and the divisions may be rearranged if the Pens move to KC, possing moving the Pens to the Western Conference.

kcchief19

03-06-2007, 10:47 AM

I get the distinct feeling that this is like a free agent wooing ... if Lemieux and his group come to Kansas City, I don't think AEG will let them leave without a deal signed. Granted, there's local pressure on getting a team for the arena -- perhaps even more pressure pending the outcome of the mayoral election -- so AEG may be willing to move a bit, even though the original sweetheart offer was made under the pretense of this being the one and only final offer.

I don't think AEG wants to be leveraged. They know Bettman has pledged to put a team here by '09 regardless, and they might be willing to wait rather than give away the farm. If Lemeiux comes back, I think he gets a final offer that expires if he gets back on a plane -- and that will eliminate the Pens' leverage in Pittsburgh.

The bad news for Pittsburgh fans is that it sounds like this is no longer about money. It sounds like it's become personal. Lemieux doesn't like being jerked around and he doesn't like the tactics. I'm sure the Pens must be thinking that if the relationship with the city/county/state is already soured, it's only going to get worse. If it's no longer about money and it's personal, that may be the last straw.

Suburban Rhythm

03-06-2007, 12:14 PM

The bad news for Pittsburgh fans is that it sounds like this is no longer about money. It sounds like it's become personal. Lemieux doesn't like being jerked around and he doesn't like the tactics. I'm sure the Pens must be thinking that if the relationship with the city/county/state is already soured, it's only going to get worse. If it's no longer about money and it's personal, that may be the last straw.

I agree with that to a point, but it's going on year 8 nearly. If his feelings weren't hurt in the first 7 years, why now?

Also, Lemieux is the 'figurehead' owner, the public piece. Ron Burkle is the money guy. I'd imagine he'll have some say too.

Pittsburgh side update- http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07065/767234-100.stm

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 12:34 PM

Pittsburgh side update- http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07065/767234-100.stm

Yikes! The city council is now firing shots at the mayor. Always nice when people that should be allies in this situation start eating their own.

FWIW.......this article makes it quite clear just how clueless the gov't officials were about the situation. They insisted publicly that everything was going well while the house was burning to the ground behind them.

Suburban Rhythm

03-06-2007, 01:10 PM

Yikes! The city council is now firing shots at the mayor. Always nice when people that should be allies in this situation start eating their own.

FWIW.......this article makes it quite clear just how clueless the gov't officials were about the situation. They insisted publicly that everything was going well while the house was burning to the ground behind them.

I absolutely believe Rendall's statement Friday were not out of cluelessness, but out of desparation--to make another 'best effort' look for the cameras and newspapers.

As far as the Mayor/City council...the mayor is a 26 year old kid who is now mayor because the prior mayor died last fall, and this kid was the president of city council. The council member calling him out is his soon to be opponent for the mayor's office.

Scarecrow

03-06-2007, 03:13 PM

For the people that think it's just a tactic to get more:

Text of the Penguins' letter to Rendell, Ravenstahl and Onorato
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

March 5, 2007

Dear Governor Rendell, County Executive Onorato and Mayor Ravenstahl:

Nearly eight years ago we bought the Penguins out of bankruptcy and have worked ever since to try to get a new multi-purpose arena. Now, with a growing sense of urgency because our lease at Mellon Arena expires in June, we have engaged in two months of negotiations on your "Plan B" proposal. We agreed to pay $3.6 million in annual rent as part of our proposal to keep the team in Pittsburgh. We also agreed to pay $400,000 a year in capital expenses, for an annual contribution of $4 million. This amounts to $120 million over 30 years. In addition, we agreed to be at risk for cost overruns. We can do no more.

Unfortunately, we still don't have a deal and are faced with mounting uncertainty that an agreement can be reached in a time frame that is realistic for our organization. Therefore, we have no choice but to declare an impasse and to notify NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman that we will aggressively explore relocation.

This is a disappointing but necessary conclusion, given the uncertainty that exists as we attempt to move forward. The recent appeals filed with the Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board, which may delay even further the awarding of the slots license and the primary funding source of the arena plan, cause us great concern. A project of this scope, with so many complex issues, can ill afford further delays that add more risk and more uncertainty.

The risk has been magnified by what we perceive as a lack of collaboration from the public sector in the negotiations. That does not bode well for the public/private partnership necessary to successfully navigate the multiple issues of an arena development of this magnitude.

On January 4, we visited Kansas City and were greeted with open arms by arena officials and political and business leaders and were treated as valued new partners in the community. The terms of the deal offered in Kansas City were for a rent-free arena with no risk of cost overruns and no risk to arena funding. The arena is scheduled to open for next season.

Despite this great offer, we wanted to keep the team in Pittsburgh and thought we owed it to our fans to do everything we could to make it work here. With that in mind, and on behalf of our organization, our loyal fans and the Pittsburgh region, we have made a single-minded effort to bring this new arena process to a successful conclusion and keep the team in Pittsburgh. Since the January 4 meeting we have played by the rules, extended our original deadline by 30 days, declined to visit any other cities and sought to work with you to try to finalize a deal.

Our good-faith efforts have not produced a deal, however, and have only added more anxiety to what we thought at best was a risky proposition for us moving forward. Those risks and the fact that our lease expires in less than four months leave us with no choice but to explore every option to ensure the long-term future of the Penguins organization.

Sincerely,

Mario Lemieux

Ron Burkle

cc: Gary Bettman, Commissioner

KevinNU7

03-06-2007, 03:28 PM

must be difficult to read back like 5 posts

kcchief19

03-06-2007, 06:02 PM

Pumpy Tudors

03-06-2007, 07:26 PM

Another odd thing that has struck me is some of the overlap in players in Pittsburgh and Kansas City. Isle of Capri, which won the casino license and is kicking in money to the arena, also has a casino in Kansas City that is only about five minutes away from the Sprint Center. Forest City, which is leading the redevelop of the area around the planned Pittsburgh arena, is also the project developer for an urban redevelopment project in Downtown Kansas City located a few blocks away.
Isle of Capri didn't win the casino license in Pittsburgh. If they had, the Penguins wouldn't be going anywhere because IoC would've built the arena without costing the Penguins a cent.

That is, unless something dramatic has happened in the past few days that I didn't hear about (which is possible).

Pyser

03-06-2007, 07:56 PM

cuervo72

03-06-2007, 08:20 PM

Rendell. R-e-n-d-e-l-l.

kcchief19

03-06-2007, 08:22 PM

Isle of Capri didn't win the casino license in Pittsburgh. If they had, the Penguins wouldn't be going anywhere because IoC would've built the arena without costing the Penguins a cent.

That is, unless something dramatic has happened in the past few days that I didn't hear about (which is possible).
Drat ... you would think I would have remembered that. I was just reading about Forest City and Isle of Capri appealing the decision on the license and got it stuck in my head that IoC had won it.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 08:25 PM

ok, i dont get it

did kc build a state of the art arena and just hope theyd land a hockey or basketball team?

thats sorta odd, considering how much of a battle it is to build arenas in other places.

KC built the arena because there was already a need there and the NHL has repeatedly told KC that if they built a new arena, they'd jump to the top of the list when a new team became available. If KC doesn't get the Pens this year, they are very likely to get either the Predators or an expansion team in the next year or two. It's just a matter of when in regards to the NHL coming to KC. The owners of the new arena in KC also own the Staples Center in LA and have a lot of connections that they can use in both the NBA and NHL.

The arena will be used quite a bit already even without the NHL or NBA. The old arena is in a bad area and is not well maintained. The new arena was needed to get KC back in the B12 tourney basketball rotation (It was the site of the Big 8/Big 12 tourney until the old arena became so bad that they were forced to move it). It also puts KC back into the mix to host NCAA regional b-ball tourney events. The National College Basketball Hall of Fame and the national headquarters of the NABC (National Association of Basketball Coaches) will be located at the new arena and will be open year-round. Also, many concert tours skipped KC because the old arena wasn't equipped to handle their stages and equipment. That won't be a problem anymore. The KC arena football team will play there as well. KC also has one of the largest convention centers in the nation that is only two blocks from the new arena. Many of the conventions will use the arena for large scale meetings when the big groups are in town.

Dr. Sak

03-06-2007, 08:27 PM

Bettman is coming to Pittsburgh Thursday when the two sides talk again.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 08:27 PM

Isle of Capri didn't win the casino license in Pittsburgh. If they had, the Penguins wouldn't be going anywhere because IoC would've built the arena without costing the Penguins a cent.

That is, unless something dramatic has happened in the past few days that I didn't hear about (which is possible).

I know that there are two lawsuits currently filed challenging the status of that casino license. That is causing some problems as that could drag on for quite some time, resulting in that money being in limbo until it's resolved.

kcchief19

03-06-2007, 08:29 PM

ok, i dont get it

did kc build a state of the art arena and just hope theyd land a hockey or basketball team?

thats sorta odd, considering how much of a battle it is to build arenas in other places.
Yes, but it was somewhat of a unique situation here. Kemper Arena is an asbolute hole, and there was sufficient momentum to get the ball rolling on an arena just so we could battle to keep the Big XII tournament and attract major concerts and events that skip KC because we don't have a state of the art arena.

But the kicker was AEG agreeing to come in and run the arena and pick up cost overruns. AEG was convinced that it could land an NHL or NBA team, so they were willing to take a gamble if the city stepped up to the plate. Kansas City needs a tenant to help pay off the bonds on the arena, but AEG actually has the most to lose if the building is empty. I think it's pretty clear that the NHL assured AEG if the arena was built, they would put a team in KC.

I think it's almost easier to build an arena to attract a team than it is to keep a team. OKC did it, we're doing it and some other cities have done it too. Voters seem willing to pay more to win a payoff than they are to pay to keep what they have.

Dr. Sak

03-06-2007, 08:29 PM

SFL Cat

03-06-2007, 08:30 PM

It's hockey...who cares

*runs and hides as razor sharp pucks come whizzing at me*

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 08:33 PM

What I heard today is the deal for the Pens staying in Pittsburgh is all about done except the cost overruns. The State wants the Pens to pay it all upfront while the Pens want to pay it off over time.

That report was incorrect. It was cited on a Pens fan board, but I'm pretty sure they've already found that was info that was passed on before the letter, but wasn't published until after the letter was sent when it was already outdated and found to be inaccurate.

Dr. Sak

03-06-2007, 08:42 PM

So info I got from Stan Savern (who covers the Pens everyday) and got this info from an interview with someone from the Pens is wrong? I'm sorry I don't believe you.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 08:45 PM

So info I got from Stan Savern (who covers the Pens everyday) and got this info from an interview with someone from the Pens is wrong? I'm sorry I don't believe you.

That info was correct a couple of days ago, but wasn't telling the whole story. Read the letter above directly from the Pens management that was published the same day that article was published. I'm thinking they didn't send that letter just because there was one or two things left to iron out. If so, that's the biggest overreaction by a management team I've ever seen.

Dr. Sak

03-06-2007, 08:53 PM

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 09:09 PM

First let me start by saying I am not a Pens fan. I am a Flyers fan but I really like hockey.

I'm not going to argue anymore because it is like beating my head against a wall. This is a hot topic in Pittsburgh and I highly doubt they would be reporting two day old news as brand new stuff on Fox Sports Pittsburgh, the home of the Pens. Savern is pretty connected inside the Pens and he is the one talking about the only issue being the overruns. The Pens brass is pretty pissed about the way they have been treated by the politicans but i doubt that gets in the way of a deal.

They have one of the highest if not THE highest TV ratings for a local market in the country. They are playing at 95% capacity and they are already accepting non-refundable deposits for season tickets for next season.

Even though all this stuff has come out I really doubt they are going anywhere. Bettman coming to Pittsburgh on Thursday just tells that the NHL does not want this team to go anywhere. KC will get a team but it wont be the Pens.

All that and the team is still losing money and has been waiting for a new arena for 8 years now.

Also, I would note that Bettman has all but dismissed any talk that he will intervene at this point.

Mario Lemieux and members of the Pens ownership are coming to Kansas City on Thursday and then are flying on to meet with officials in Las Vegas on Friday. If they're doing that just because they need to iron out a cost overrun situation, that's an awfully big overreaction.

FWIW.......the cost overrun difference is a much bigger situation than you make it out to be. The price of steel has increased dramatically in recent weeks and Pittsburgh officials are aware that the price is widely expected to increase dramatically in the next couple of years. There's a reason that the city doesn't want cost overruns on their end. They know that it's pretty likely that there will be large cost overruns if the arena were to be built and they don't want to foot that bill.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 09:12 PM

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 09:29 PM

Article now out on Sports Illustrated website. Rendall is playing the "I'm going to make Gary Bettman keep you from moving" card. That's usually not a good sign that you feel a deal is even close to being done. It should also be noted that the Pens management group publicly states in this article that they are even willing to cover cost overruns, so there's obviously something else holding up the deal other than cost overruns as the Fox Sports Pittsburgh writer had implied..........

'If they don't take it ...'
Gov. Rendell says he'll ask NHL to stop Pens' move
Posted: Tuesday March 6, 2007 6:41PM; Updated: Tuesday March 6, 2007 7:19PM

PITTSBURGH (AP) -- Gov. Ed Rendell says he will turn to the National Hockey League to prevent the Pittsburgh Penguins from moving, one day after the team said it had reached an impasse in negotiations with state, county and local officials to finance a new arena.

"The governor believes we have put an exceptionally attractive offer on the table," according to a statement released by Rendell's office. Later in the day, Rendell told reporters, "If they don't take it, we're going to be up in New York asking the NHL to bar the Penguins from moving."

On Monday, the Penguins said they will actively pursue relocation and blamed government officials for failing to cut a new arena deal.

Owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle said the team has agreed to pay $120 million over 30 years toward a new $290 million arena and to cover any cost overruns.

The Penguins' lease at 46-year-old Mellon Arena, the oldest arena in the league, expires June 30. The Penguins have repeatedly said they may move the team, or sell it to someone who would move it, if no deal for a new arena is in place by then.

Officials in Kansas City have offered the Penguins free rent and half of all revenues if they agree to play in the soon-to-be-completed $262 million Sprint Center.

Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl said he believes it is in the team's best interest to stay in Pittsburgh and said a deal can be reached despite the team's frustration with negotiations so far.

henry296

03-06-2007, 09:52 PM

More fuel to the fire.......

The Detroit Free Press is reporting that 'inside' sources (I'm assuming that means NHL or Red Wings officials) have already made the decision that Detroit will be moved to the Eastern Conference if the Pens move to KC and join the Western Conference. Pretty doubtful that this kind of a decision would be made if the Pens staying in Pittsburgh was a done deal.

That doesn't suprise me at all. I'm sure the NHL has realignment plans for a variety of scenarios including the Penguins in Vegas, KC, and Pittsburgh. I wouldn't be surprised if the schedules have been determined in all three scenarios, too. That is just good contigency planning.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 10:14 PM

That doesn't suprise me at all. I'm sure the NHL has realignment plans for a variety of scenarios including the Penguins in Vegas, KC, and Pittsburgh. I wouldn't be surprised if the schedules have been determined in all three scenarios, too. That is just good contigency planning.

I would agree on the schedule. The problem is obviously that the deadline for schedule finalization is quickly approaching. It's getting close to the point where they have to make a final decision.

cuervo72

03-06-2007, 10:15 PM

Rendall

Again, unless this is a deliberate play on his name, it is spelled R-E-N-D-E-L-L.

(Yes, yes, I know. Consider it a mild form of mental illness.)

JonInMiddleGA

03-06-2007, 10:18 PM

Gov. Rendell says he'll ask NHL to stop Pens' move

Lemme see here, I'll play Bettman.

On one side of the argument is a governor who we're not quite sure how to spell his name. On the other side of the argument is the man affectionately known as Super Mario. And on one side is the 21st largest MSA in the U.S. but one that's lost population in the past 5 years while on the other is the 27th largest MSA which grew by 6% in the past 5 years.

Hmm ... decisions, decisions.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-06-2007, 10:30 PM

Yet another article on the situation from www.tsn.ca. This guy is usually pretty accurate regarding situations that he writes on. Pretty accurate assessment that Pittsburgh still can hold on to the Pens if they stop jacking around while nothing that Pittsburgh officials should come to the realization that the Pens are now one final step away from leaving Pittsburgh and will be allowed to move as long as the reasoning behind the move is sound.

McKenzie: Penguins on the power play
Bob McKenzie

3/6/2007 7:31:53 PM

The Pittsburgh Penguins making noise like they may bolt to Kansas City is not a hollow threat, because it is within the realm of possibility that the team could re-locate.

But let us also see this "impasse" for what it is: the final negotiating tactic to get a deal done in Pittsburgh.

A meeting will be held later this week in Pittsburgh involving all the interested parties, including NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, whose presence would appear to be two fold.

The first - to implore the various levels of government to close the deal to keep the pens in Pittsburgh. But second - to make sure the Penguins' ownership isn't getting greedy with a lucrative Kansas City deal in their back pocket.

At the end of the day, the National Hockey League doesn't really want the Penguins in Kansas City.

It wants them in the good hockey market that Pittsburgh is, provided the new arena deal makes dollars and sense for the franchise. So while Bettman will cajole the politicians to close the deal, he will also be sending a strong message to the Penguins that there are roadblocks on the way to Kansas City and it is the league, not the Penguins, that has the final say on franchise transfers.

It appears the two sides have the basis for a deal in place, but there are concerns with the possibility of cost overruns on a new arena and who would be responsible for them.

That's apparently the sticking point right now.

The smart money suggests that with Bettman prodding both sides, they will come to a workable compromise.

But in any case, this is the final act in a play that has been running way too long.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 09:09 AM

Pens ownership moved up their trip to Vegas to today. The Pennsylvania officials want to meet with the Pens owners tomorrow, which may bump the KC visit to Friday.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07066/767364-53.stm

Penguins owners taking a look at Las Vegas today
Wednesday, March 07, 2007

By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The Penguins will travel to Las Vegas today to explore a possible move, as state and local leaders try to arrange a meeting with the team to get talks here back on track.

Las Vegas is one of three cities interested in talking to the team after Penguins co-owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle sent a letter to Gov. Ed Rendell, Allegheny County Chief Executive Dan Onorato and Mayor Luke Ravenstahl on Monday declaring an impasse in negotiations and saying they would "aggressively" consider relocation.

Team officials also are hoping to set up a meeting this week, possibly in Los Angeles, with representatives of Anschutz Entertainment Group, manager of the $276 million Sprint Center being built in Kansas City. They also are trying to set up a meeting in Houston, another city trying to attract a National Hockey League team.

At the same time, Mr. Rendell, Mr. Onorato and Mr. Ravenstahl are hoping to meet with all principals, including Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle, possibly tomorrow in Philadelphia, to try to salvage a deal they have described as close to being done.

"This is a priority for us. There's a lot of flexibility in our calendars. We're going to try to get this done," Mr. Onorato said. "Let's get back in a room, find out what triggered the letter. Let's get that resolved and let's close the deal."

Despite the letter declaring an impasse, Mr. Ravenstahl insisted yesterday that the two sides were close to an agreement on funding a new arena. He said the parties need to "sit down, talk about the specifics, find out where we're not in agreement, and go from there."

He said he expected National Hockey League Commissioner Gary Bettman, who has served as a go-between the last two weeks, to be part of any new round of talks.

In Las Vegas, the Penguins are expected to talk with Mayor Oscar Goodman, who first met with National Hockey League officials several years ago in a bid to land a franchise.

The team's arena situation in Las Vegas may not be much better than it is in Pittsburgh. At least initially, the team most likely would play in the 23-year-old Thomas & Mack Center, site of the recent National Basketball Association All-Star Game.

In remarks before the game, NBA Commissioner David Stern said the league would not return to the arena. He said it was "not suitable for future All-Star events" and "not equipped to hold major league events." NBA officials also had complaints about power and lighting capacity.

Mr. Goodman claims to have five groups interested in investing in an arena, but there is no firm timetable for construction or even a deal to get one built. There's also been a continuing concern about locating a professional sports franchise in a city that allows betting on pro sports.

A spokeswoman for Mr. Goodman would not confirm today's meeting with representatives from the Penguins.

In Houston, no meeting has been set up so far. But Patrick Trahan, a spokesman for Mayor Bill White, said the mayor's office has extended an invitation to talk to the team about a possible move "when the time was right."

Officials in Houston have been trying to attract an NHL team to play in the Toyota Center, an arena that opened in 2003 and is home to the NBA Houston Rockets and the Houston Aeros of the American Hockey League.

The frontrunner in a potential relocation is Kansas City, where the $276 million Sprint Center is nearing completion and will be available next season. The Penguins are being offered a deal that includes no rent, no construction costs and a split of building revenues with AEG.

AEG spokesman Michael Roth had no comment on the situation with the Penguins yesterday.

In declaring an impasse Monday, Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle said the team had agreed to put up $4 million a year toward a new arena -- $3.6 million a year in rent and $400,000 a year in funding for capital expenses. The Penguins also are adding $500,000 a year for a new parking garage.

The $4 million is exactly the same as Mr. Rendell asked the team to contribute last year under the proposed Plan B funding formula.

Other major financial elements also appear to be in place -- $7.5 million a year for 30 years from Pittsburgh casino winner Don Barden and $7.5 million annually from a gambling-backed state economic development fund, up $500,000 from the initial Plan B proposal.

Despite that, the two sides have been unable to work out a deal, leading many to wonder exactly what the holdup was. Asked about that, the mayor replied, "Numbers are numbers, and they present numbers perhaps in a different way than we present numbers."

Mr. Ravenstahl would not rule out an appeal to the NHL to block a relocation by the Penguins if the team tried to move. Mr. Rendell made the same point in interviews in Philadelphia yesterday, although a spokesman played down the threat, saying it would be a "last resort kind of thing."

"It's important to emphasize they're still trying to work this thing out," spokesman Chuck Ardo said.

The Penguins have expressed frustration as much with the tone of the talks as the substance.

Sources close to the team indicated one of the final straws came Friday, when the state refused to share interest rate information in a dispute over whether more money is needed in the financing package. They're concerned that the antagonistic tone could carry over if issues arise during construction. The Penguins co-owners said in their letter, "We can do no more."

Mr. Onorato, who said it "truly was a shock" to get Monday's letter, said one reason he wants to meet quickly is to find out exactly what is bothering the team and get it resolved.

He acknowledged there "seems to be a big disconnect" in the way the public officials have viewed the negotiations as opposed to the Penguins.

"There's been so much movement in the last month, I thought it was positive movement," he said.

Mr. Rendell said last week one of the few remaining outstanding issues was how to account for an extra $20 million added as a contingency to a proposed arena bond issue. That increased the amount of the bond issue from $270 million to $290 million.

The Penguins also have a concern about the impact the losers' appeals of the Pittsburgh slots license award will have on funding, although both Mr. Onorato and Mr. Ravenstahl indicated it would not be a major impediment.

KevinNU7

03-07-2007, 09:29 AM

I don't get why Vegas doesn't have a kick ass arena already. You'd think MGM could throw $200M+ into an arena with their name all over it. Then they can host events there offer hotel rooms for functions and get the ball rolling. Makes sense to me that a Casino would want to have a nice facility near by just in case one of the top 4 sports ever wants to come they will be ahead of he class.

Dr. Sak

03-07-2007, 10:07 AM

Oh Shit! Eklund is reporting that his "sources" are saying the Pens will stay in Pittsburgh. Which means...KC here they come.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 10:44 AM

Rendell is a serious nutbag. Yesterday he's publicly threatening to get the NHL involved to stop the Pens from moving. Today, he's publicly stating that media reports are overblown and that he's very optimistic that a deal can be reached. Someone seriously needs to medicate these people. It's no wonder these people can't put their heads on straight and get a deal done after seeing this whole thing play out in public.

http://post-gazette.com/pg/07066/767507-100.stm

Rendell 'still optimistic' about arena deal
Wednesday, March 07, 2007

By Tom Barnes, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

HARRISBURG -- Negotiations between government officials and the Penguins "are not as bleak as the papers make it sound,'' Gov. Ed Rendell said today, adding he is "still optimistic'' the team will remain in Pittsburgh.

Mr. Rendell expects to return further talks "later this week'' with team officials, talks that will include National Hockey League Commissioner Gary Bettman. Mr. Rendell said he is remaining positive despite the fact that Penguins officials are in Las Vegas today to discuss a move there.

As for the letter received from Penguins officials this week declaring an "impasse'' in the talks with Pittsburgh, Allegheny County and state officials, Mr. Rendell said, "I think there are negotiating ploys that are used by both sides in the process.''

Asked if the letter was such a ploy, he said, "I think to some degree it is.'' He said the letter was "a way of letting the commissioner know that we haven't gotten all the way yet and there are still one or two outstanding issues.''

He said he is staying optimistic about what have turned into difficult talks.

"As I said to the Post-Gazette when I was out there (a few days ago), we haven't nailed it down yet, and there are one or two areas that we haven't nailed down,'' he said.

He said he spoke last weekend to Commissioner Bettman -- after getting the Penguins' impasse letter.

"I said 'Commissioner, notwithstanding this letter, I think we're making great progress and I actually think we are very close.' The commissioner has been helpful recently and he will be at the next meeting.''

Mr. Rendell said he sees no "financial advantage'' for the Penguins in a move to Las Vegas, because, like Pittsburgh, it would have to build a new hockey arena from scratch. That differs from Kansas City, which is completing a new arena and wants a hockey team to fill it.

"The financial advantage that (the team) has always said to me that accrues to them most greatly is the ability to move into a new building right away and start realizing 'plus side' revenues,'' he said. "In Las Vegas, they don't have that advantage. Las Vegas couldn't build a new [arena] any faster than we could. So that advantage, which they have been saying all along is one of their big fiscal drivers, doesn't exist.

"It does exist in Kansas City, sure, which is one of the reasons I have increased out participation, and we've worked hard. Since we started meeting (about two months ago), the Penguins have asked for about 14 changes from the original Plan B proposal. My guess is that we've made 12 or 13 of the 14.

"So that's why I'm optimistic. I think we're pretty close. And I'm looking forward to the next meeting as hopefully even wrapping it up."

KevinNU7

03-07-2007, 10:54 AM

Rendell: Hey Tom can you make another article saying everything is still great? Take some old quotes, make up some new ones. You know the drill we do this every few days.

Barnes: No problem. Hey should we start discounting Las Vegas since they are heading over their today?

Rendell: I don't see how that can possibly hurt our negociations. Get to it.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 10:58 AM

Just as a sidenote.....

Some of you may have seen the adverse reaction by Pittsburgh-area fans towards Kansas City over this whole situation. The Pittsburgh fans in general are throwing some pretty harsh barbs towards KC in general. They might be surprised to find that KC actually empathizes with their plight. Sure, KC would love to have the Penguins come to town. We know that we'll get a NHL team at some point in the very near future. Why not get a team with a young nucleus that will contend for some time to come?

With that said, we've been in Pittsburgh's situation in the past and certainly know how it feels. We lost the A's when they moved to Oakland. We lost the Kings to Sacramento just before the NBA's popularity boom began. Some may not realize that we lost the NHL Scouts, who were moved and became the New Jersey Devils. A lot of that movement was done when KC was still struggling with growth in the metropolitan area.

Things are much different now in Kansas City. The growth rate of 6-7% that we are seeing right now is amazing. We will soon have a great new arena which will be able to house many events that skip our town right now. A NHL tenant is soon-to-come as well, whether it is the Pens, Predators or an expansion team. Construction will soon start on a new $300M performing arts complex, which will be one of the finest in the nation. Over $500M was just recently allocated for a renovation of the Truman Sports Complex (Arrowhead Stadium and Kauffman Stadium). Both of those stadiums are great venues and will only get better. We have a brand new racetrack as well and have both NASCAR and IRL events every year. A new soccer stadium is likely soon to come for the KC Wizards.

Pittsburgh needs to follow KC's lead if it wants to stay in the game. I know that the population numbers are falling in that area. Pittsburgh city leaders need to reinvent that city and make it a place that people want to live. The football and baseball stadiums are a good start, but they have to do more than that. Hopefully they don't wait too long to make those decisions so they avoid anything that hinders the growth of the city.

Suburban Rhythm

03-07-2007, 11:18 AM

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 11:25 AM

Are you referring to this?

http://www.cafepress.com/helpthepens.98803805

That's one, but certainly not the only one. Obviously, KC is there as a good venting tool, though Pittsburgh fans should mainly be blaming their government officials for failing to get a deal over the previous 8 years when they already knew it was a problem. I would note that the declining population problem in Pittsburgh obviously hurts the economic and tax base, which probably doesn't help their ability to get funds together to get something done.

Suburban Rhythm

03-07-2007, 11:30 AM

That's one, but certainly not the only one. Obviously, KC is there as a good venting tool, though Pittsburgh fans should mainly be blaming their government officials for failing to get a deal over the previous 8 years when they already knew it was a problem. I would note that the declining population problem in Pittsburgh obviously hurts the economic and tax base, which probably doesn't help their ability to get funds together to get something done.

Declining tax base didn't stop a football and baseball stadium from being built, again with public opposition. Government ineptitude is the goal scorer, with ownership greed with an assist. Maybe give the second assist to declining tax base.

Simms

03-07-2007, 11:33 AM

Some may not realize that we lost the NHL Scouts, who were moved and became the New Jersey Devils.

Not to detract from your very good post, but the Scouts actually moved to Denver to become the Rockies. The Rockies then moved to Jersey. :)

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 11:36 AM

Not to detract from your very good post, but the Scouts actually moved to Denver to become the Rockies. The Rockies then moved to Jersey. :)

Very good point. I skipped a stop because I figured most wouldn't know the NHL Rockies any more than the NHL Scouts. I probably should have said 'who eventually became the NJ Devils'.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 12:05 PM

Simms, you actually indirectly pointed out another thing about this whole discussion. Denver had that NHL team for a short time and then it moved to Jersey. Rendell in the article today made the comment that KC had already had a NHL team in the past and it failed and so he didn't see why it would be any more of a success this time.

That's one of the worst arguments against a move to KC that I've ever seen. To use the NHL and KC of the early '70 as logic to imply that a NHL team would not now (or in the future) succeed in KC is a reach at best. Using that logic, Denver never should have got another shot at the NHL. They seem to be doing just fine.

Also, this idea that people like Rendell keep bringing up that the team won't be supported in KC is antiquated thinking as well. KC fans are not idiots and they're nothing but loyal. The Royals win 60-65 games and draw 1.3 million fans for the season. The Chiefs have the best environment in the NFL and sell out that stadium for the entire year despite the fact that the last QB to lead us to a playoff win was Joe Montana in the early '90s. Our Arena football team nearly sold out every game last year despite a final record of 3-13. Implying that KC fans don't know the game of hockey and wouldn't come out to see one of the brightest young superstars in the game is crazy. There's also Chicago, St. Louis, Minneapolis, and Denver transplants that would love to have a local NHL team to see on a regular basis.

Note that this is certainly not meant to knock the Pittsburgh fans. They've supporting the club despite all of the blunders by their politicians. Unfortunately, those politicians are the ones that hold the club's fate in their hands, not the fans.

Pyser

03-07-2007, 12:24 PM

ok, now im rooting for the pens to move to kc. this is great on 2 fronts:

1 - detroit to the east. that would just be wonderful all around.
2 - crosby, malkin and the rest to the western conference, and the atlantic division remains in the devils grasp! ha!

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 12:44 PM

Butter

03-07-2007, 12:45 PM

I kinda figured they'd move Columbus to the East. Nashville would also be a candidate.

Wolfpack

03-07-2007, 01:00 PM

I kinda figured they'd move Columbus to the East. Nashville would also be a candidate.

True, but if they bumped Detroit to the east, they'd be able to re-unite two of the better O6 teams by putting them in with Toronto in the Northeast Division (along with Montreal, Ottawa, and Buffalo). I suspect if this came to pass, then Boston would be bumped to the Atlantic Division (which makes some sense, really--the only crucial tie the Bruins had in the Northeast Division was with Montreal and renewing the feud with the New York area in another sport is more the right speed, I think).

I guess if the Pens go to the West, they just take Detroit's place so they can have an in-state rivalry with St. Louis. The only other team that could really re-align would be Minnesota to the Central, which would put the Pens in the Northwest, probably.

Scarecrow

03-07-2007, 01:02 PM

KevinNU7

03-07-2007, 01:11 PM

FWIW.......the construction is still on time and on budget. Amazing how these kind of things stay on budget and on time when a private company is responsible for any cost overruns........

http://www.sprintcenter.com/arena_webcam.php
Can't decide if I like the exterior view or not. It's cool that you can see outside from the balcony, but I wonder if they have considered the impact to hockey/basketball at sunset

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 01:39 PM

I just get the feeling that the move to KC is inevitable, and that the Pittsburgh/Pennsylvania politicians are just trying to save face for the next elections. 'We tried everything to keep the Penguins, but Mario was an asshole about it.'

There was an article talking about that today.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07066/767367-61.stm

Risks over arena great for public officials and franchise
Wednesday, March 07, 2007

By James O'Toole, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The Penguins' latest declaration that they are seeking a home beyond Pittsburgh may have been an authentic expression of eight years of frustrating negotiations, but it was also a calculated effort to boost pressure on state and local officials to resolve, once and for all, their quest for a new arena.

The talks, which may resume tomorrow, pose significant, though varying, degrees of political risk for the three officeholders involved, just as they carry substantial business and public relations risks for the franchise.

For Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl, the flight of the flightless birds would offer a ready-made issue to his mayoral challenger, Councilman William Peduto.

Mr. Peduto, who has been a passionate hockey fan since growing up in Scott down the block from former Penguins player Lowell MacDonald, seized on the latest development yesterday, blaming Mr. Ravenstahl for taking a back seat to Gov. Ed Rendell and Allegheny County Chief Executive Dan Onorato throughout the talks.

He contrasted what he characterized as a subsidiary role by the mayor with the leading one played by former Mayor Tom Murphy in the negotiations that produced PNC Park and Heinz Field.

Mr. Ravenstahl, who said he had reached out to the Penguins in response to their letter declaring an impasse in the arena talks, rejected his rival's critique, noting the central financial role of the state in any prospective deal.

"Without the governor at the table, there's absolutely no way we could be in discussions to keep the team here," he said.

Mr. Onorato has no similar short-term jeopardy. His re-election is all but assured with no Republican opponent and only a long-shot challenge from community organizer Richard Swartz for the Democratic nomination.

Mr. Onorato is widely seen as having ambitions beyond the courthouse, however. The departure of the popular sports franchise could complicate those plans. Mr. Onorato has led a relatively charmed public life since taking over as the county's second chief executive.

By introducing a base-year system for property tax assessments, he finessed an issue that had dogged county officials for decades. He recently welcomed the news that US Airways had decided to locate its expended operations center in the county. But the Penguins issue could turn into a hurdle on a potential road to higher office.

From a purely political perspective, the arena issue was a bigger potential problem for Mr. Rendell before his landslide re-election last year.

His opponent, Lynn Swann, joined a long list of politicians of both parties in embracing the casino bid of Isle of Capri, then the Penguins' partner, which pledged to build a new arena in return for the awarding of a slot machine license.

Mr. Rendell took the lead in crafting the so-called Plan B, wherein all three of Pittsburgh's slots bidders were asked to help finance a new arena. He is barred from seeking a third term as governor, so the talks could do little to cloud his personal ambition.

Their resolution, could, at most, have a marginal, intangible impact on the clout he brings to battles over broader state issues. A popular governor is in a better position than an unpopular one in asking for tough votes on such issues as health care or the budget.

"I think the political stakes for the governor are certainly less than they are for the two local officials running for re-election, but having said that, the governor ... has worked hard on this project because it is important to Western Pennsylvania,'' said Chuck Ardo, a spokesman for Mr. Rendell. "It's got less to do with politics than it does with the fact that he thinks it's important for Pittsburgh to have a hockey team."

Despite the impression that might be conveyed by the callers to sports talk radio, the political pressure on public officials concerning the Penguins does not come solely from one side.

Mr. Peduto invoked the former Mayor Mr. Murphy in his criticism of Mr. Ravenstahl. But among the political problems that assailed Mr. Murphy in the latter part of his administration was enduring criticism of his role in championing public financing for the North Shore sports facilities.

In the run-up to last year's elections, Western Pennsylvania voters were the targets of polling on almost every conceivable public issue. If those surveys had found big majorities favoring public financing of the arena, local and state politicians would be lining up behind such proposals, making the Penguins talks easier for all sides.

But the issue is a double-edged sword to politicians.

"Who lost the Penguins?" could become to Pittsburgh politics what "Who lost China?" was to the national political debate of the 1950s, a source of never-ending, unresolvable bickering.

At the same time, as the fate of Mr. Murphy and former county Commissioners Bob Cranmer and Mike Dawida suggests, there is political peril in being perceived as having given away the store to a sports franchise.

In a reflection of that reality, under the outline of Plan B, a pledge of $7.5 million in gaming proceeds from the eventual Pittsburgh casino winner, Majestic Star, along with other gaming-generated revenues and a substantial contribution from the team, are the heart of the financing deal still on the table. The political players have emphasized repeatedly that the proposal does not depend on tax dollars.

The prospect of the Penguins' exit raises the question of what would happen to the Majestic Star portion of that revenue stream. Even though Isle of Capri lost out on the slots license, it was a political and public relations achievement on its part and that of the casino operator's allies, the Penguins, that a public consensus developed early that arena financing was an appropriate goal for slots revenue.

Part of the argument was that this was private money rather than tax dollars. But if that revenue stream is not needed for a new arena, would it be available for some other public purpose? Officials close to the talks disagreed on whether it could be redirected or simply added to Majestic Star's prospective profits.

"That's highly speculative," said Bob Oltmanns, a Majestic Star spokesman.

While they don't have to worry about the next election, the Penguins aren't immune from risk in this situation. Mario Lemieux will always be a Pittsburgh sports legend. Whatever happens with the team, he won't be a contender for the pariah status Art Modell assumed in Cleveland with the exit of the Ravens, nee Browns. But the prospect of the Kansas City Penguins, or the Las Vegas Penguins, would inevitably complicate his relationship with an adopted home whose team he saved on the ice and in the front office.

From a business standpoint, the lease details offered by Kansas City seem favorable to the team. And with its current makeup, the odds are that a winning, young team could sell tickets in any sizable city, at least in the near term. The real danger for the team in a new city is whether it could cultivate the long-term fan base that allowed the team to attract crowds even in its down years. That relationship, built over decades, will be at risk for all sides as the brinkmanship over the arena continues.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 01:41 PM

Can't decide if I like the exterior view or not. It's cool that you can see outside from the balcony, but I wonder if they have considered the impact to hockey/basketball at sunset

Al Gore mandated that our arena be the first 'green' arena in the nation. A view of the sunset was what was negotiated.

Dr. Sak

03-07-2007, 01:44 PM

Just as a sidenote.....

Some of you may have seen the adverse reaction by Pittsburgh-area fans towards Kansas City over this whole situation. The Pittsburgh fans in general are throwing some pretty harsh barbs towards KC in general.

The only reason I even got remotely testy with any of my responses was because you seem to be the know all about this situation and refuse to listen to anyone else's point of view. You've been basically reporting since the beginning that the Pens to KC would be a done deal anyday. Plus you sit there and say how KC is leaps and bounds ahead of Pittsburgh, so yeah you are going to get people throwing it back at you. You can read all the articles in the papers that you want, but there is one thing I have found about writers in this town. They are very pessimistic.

Some of what you do say is correct and I agree with the notion that the govenment has dropped the ball on this one. Not so much Fast Eddie but the city itself. They kept promising...promising...and more promising ownership that an arena would be built. And I cannot blame Lemieux for getting pissed off. The only reason he is the owner of this team is because the Pens did not have the cash to pay him the money he was owed. So he agreed that instead of taking the money he would take a stake in the team instead. Now one of the sticking points is the State not telling the Pens what the interest rate is on the bond. Call me a homer or whatever but I find it hard to believe that this point will be the breaking point. The State/City is dumb, but not that dumb.

What the city also has going against it is the fact that the losers of the slot licenses are now filing an appeal which will hold up the money for the proposed Arena. Bardon has already applied for an extension - for when the Slots Parlor is to open. He is requesting to bring in riverboats to allow for gambling to offset the delay in his opening of the Slots Parlor. So it is the gaming boards fault for picking this guy, who might not have the funding they thought he had. And who has buddies on the Gaming Board...Fast Eddie. So now the Isle of Capri and the other ones are challenging that Bardon doesn't have the money to build the Casinos. This right here is not a good sign. The worst part in this all is that even if the Pens do move, an Arena will be built. That has already been established. It will be just too little too late.

Your other point about Pittsburgh's population dwindling is correct on the surface but have you actually been to a Penguins game in the past 3 years? If you have you would notice that 70% of the crowd are people below the age of 35. If you show up to the game 2 hrs beforehand you would see a line out of Gate A that stretches half way around the stadium. That line is the college students lining up for student rush tickets. A program (a great one IMO) that will allow college students to buy any available ticket at $20 with a valid student ID. So the Pens let them in cheaper in hopes they will get hooked and when they get out of college they will buy regular priced tickets. And it seems to be a program that is working.

Also when they talk about the Population in Pittsburgh they only include what is going on in Allegheny county. I don't live in Allegheny County but in a surrounding county. In those counties the population is not decreasing, it is increasing because the people want out of the 3% income tax range. So on paper it looks like the fan base is losing numbers but it isnt. It's a mere 20-30 min drive to the Arena from the surrounding counties. And just as a side note, those surrounding counties also had a tax increase to pay for Heinz and PNC Park.

You're correct when you say that the City needs to do build up so people want to live there and they have, but it is still a work in progress. But it is not as far behind as you might think. Since PNC Park and Heinz Field have been build, the North Side is a really nice place to go. Also in Homestead the entire Waterfront area has been built up and it a really nice place. Between the Arena and the Stadiums the Arts District has been renovated. As far as how they compare to KC, I have no idea because I don't comment on things I haven't seen. The next area is the Hill District, where Mellon Arena is located.

Even when the Pens were bad their attendance numbers (% wise) were only bad one year. In 03-04 they only played at 70% capacity, but had 23 wins. In the other years (since 2000) of sub 38 wins, Mellon Arena was filled over 90% each time. The only season since 2000 they've had a winning one was 2000-01 where they played at 98% capacity. So it isn't like they have been having stellar teams of late, but yet the people still keep coming. Yeah I realize last year was because of Sidney but those other years they really had crap. Their marquee player was Ryan Malone and the GM was trading players for a pack of gum and some cash. Just look at the Jagr and Kovalev deals.

And while you bring up the Royals having good attendance for bad teams, did you know that since 2000 the Pirates have outdrew the Royals by over 2 million fans? The Pirates have not had a winning season since the early 90s. I would assume that the Chiefs and Steelers draw comparable numbers with respect to their stadium size. I know there is a waiting list for Steeler tickets that is upwards of 20 years. So the loyalty is here, good or bad teams.

Bettman has come out and said that he thinks the Pens should stay in Pittsburgh. Why do you think the Blackberry owner pulled back his offer? Because Bettman made it known that if Pittsburgh gives a halfway decent offer to bulid an Arena, the NHL would make it very difficult if not impossible for them to move the team to KC. I think that is what the Lemieux Group is trying to show right now. Because if they don't Bettman will try his best to block it and also if Bettman lets the Lemieux group move without any hard evidence that the Pittsburgh Deal is not a good one, he'll get his ass sued by the Blackberry owner. It is their (ownerships) last card, and now that Bettman is coming on Thursday he'll get to witness first hand what the talks and the deal being presented is like.

Mario just wants the money he is owed. The man is tired of this game and just wants to retire. Also he has a lot of loyalty to the team and the city. He has stated many times that he wants to stay in Pittsburgh to live after he retires. I doubt he does that if the team moves to KC. I really believe that it would be a last resort that Mario would allow the Pens to move. But I really can't blame the guy, he just wants what is owed to him and to enjoy retirement.

Finally, KC "rent free" deal does have it perks but let's not make it out to be the best thing since sliced bread. The KC deal does not let the ownership have any hand in the venues that take place that aren't hockey. That is being included in the Pittsburgh deal along with the Pens being in full control of the parking and concession reveune. While "rent free" has a great ring to it, it isn't super as it sounds.

It is pretty well known that stuff does not get done without major threats, scares and usually resolves itself at the 11th hour. So this is where we are at now. I do believe Mario is prepared to move the team if it comes to it, but I still think in the end they will still be in Pittsburgh.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 02:34 PM

The only reason I even got remotely testy with any of my responses was because you seem to be the know all about this situation and refuse to listen to anyone else's point of view. You've been basically reporting since the beginning that the Pens to KC would be a done deal anyday. Plus you sit there and say how KC is leaps and bounds ahead of Pittsburgh, so yeah you are going to get people throwing it back at you. You can read all the articles in the papers that you want, but there is one thing I have found about writers in this town. They are very pessimistic.

It is pretty well known that stuff does not get done without major threats, scares and usually resolves itself at the 11th hour. So this is where we are at now. I do believe Mario is prepared to move the team if it comes to it, but I still think in the end they will still be in Pittsburgh.

I shortened up your quote to avoid a monster post.

My post was actually not in relation to anything you had posted, but rather some of the things that were published in the paper today as well as the general barbs on Penguin fan boards. You had said you weren't even a Pens fan and not from Pittsburgh.

Whatever the case, I think there's actually some very good discussion in this thread. All cities go through this type of thing. Having actually lived less than an hour from Philadelphia for a couple of years until moving back to KC last summer, I'm pretty aware actually of what's going on in Pennsylvania. The western 2/3 of Pennsylvania are really struggling right now. It's not nearly as vibrant and attractive area as it used to be.

Also, a couple of points in regard to your population movement discussion. First, you mentioned that the population is simply moving out to the subarb areas. The population information backs that up to an extent. The population of the city of Pittsburgh has fallen steadily at a 9.5% clip over the past 25 years........

Pittsburgh, PA

City Population

1980: 423,959

1990: 369,879

2000: 334,563

2003 estimate: 325,337

Percent change, 1990–2000: -9.5%

So the city itself has lost roughly 25% of its total population. That in itself should be frightening to city leaders. They're losing a lot of tax base in the city proper and it's going to other areas. As a metro area, a dying urban core is a very bad thing. You don't want your population to move out to other areas. The key to a vibrant city is to keep the urban core progressive and growing. Here are the stats for the metro Pittsburgh area.

Metropolitan Area Population

1980: 2,219,000

1990: 2,394,811

2000: 2,358,695

Percent change, 1990–2000: -1.5%

So those stats seem to show that the 100,000 have stayed and population has slightly increased. Now, here are the same numbers for Kansas City.

Kansas City

City Population

1980: 448,028

1990: 431,236

2000: 441,545

2003 estimate: 442,768

Percent change, 1990–2000: 1.5%

Metropolitan Area Population

1980: 1,433,000

1990: 1,582,875

2000: 1,776,062

Percent change, 1990–2000: 12.2%

Note the differences. Kansas City has a stable urban core from a population perspective. In addition, the growth rate of the overall metro area is borderline explosive. FWIW.....current estimates now show that growth rate is in the 15% range. KC is currently adding 20,000 resident A YEAR right now. Pittsburgh's metro area actually lost 40,000 residents between 1990 and 2000. That's not what you want to see in your city if you're a Pittsburgh resident.

KevinNU7

03-07-2007, 02:35 PM

Wow, that was a long one

Suburban Rhythm

03-07-2007, 02:56 PM

I shortened up your quote to avoid a monster post.

My post was actually not in relation to anything you had posted, but rather some of the things that were published in the paper today as well as the general barbs on Penguin fan boards. You had said you weren't even a Pens fan and not from Pittsburgh.

Whatever the case, I think there's actually some very good discussion in this thread. All cities go through this type of thing. Having actually lived less than an hour from Philadelphia for a couple of years until moving back to KC last summer, I'm pretty aware actually of what's going on in Pennsylvania. The western 2/3 of Pennsylvania are really struggling right now. It's not nearly as vibrant and attractive area as it used to be.

Also, a couple of points in regard to your population movement discussion. First, you mentioned that the population is simply moving out to the subarb areas. The population information backs that up to an extent. The population of the city of Pittsburgh has fallen steadily at a 9.5% clip over the past 25 years........

Pittsburgh, PA

City Population

1980: 423,959

1990: 369,879

2000: 334,563

2003 estimate: 325,337

Percent change, 1990–2000: -9.5%

So the city itself has lost roughly 25% of its total population. That in itself should be frightening to city leaders. They're losing a lot of tax base in the city proper and it's going to other areas. As a metro area, a dying urban core is a very bad thing. You don't want your population to move out to other areas. The key to a vibrant city is to keep the urban core progressive and growing. Here are the stats for the metro Pittsburgh area.

Metropolitan Area Population

1980: 2,219,000

1990: 2,394,811

2000: 2,358,695

Percent change, 1990–2000: -1.5%

So those stats seem to show that the 100,000 have stayed and population has slightly increased. Now, here are the same numbers for Kansas City.

Kansas City

City Population

1980: 448,028

1990: 431,236

2000: 441,545

2003 estimate: 442,768

Percent change, 1990–2000: 1.5%

Metropolitan Area Population

1980: 1,433,000

1990: 1,582,875

2000: 1,776,062

Percent change, 1990–2000: 12.2%

Note the differences. Kansas City has a stable urban core from a population perspective. In addition, the growth rate of the overall metro area is borderline explosive. FWIW.....current estimates now show that growth rate is in the 15% range. KC is currently adding 20,000 resident A YEAR right now. Pittsburgh's metro area actually lost 40,000 residents between 1990 and 2000. That's not what you want to see in your city if you're a Pittsburgh resident.

I've alluded to this is in previous posts, but...

If we are talking attracting people to the city, it goes WAY beyond the arena. The city has been crumbling for decades, as your numbers show.

I work in town, actually for the company which the current building is named after. I live in the suburbs, but it is less than 7 miles from my front door to my desk.

There are attractions on what is called the South Side (as the name would have you believe, the south portion of the city)...but it is over river from the true downtown area. Same goes for the North Shore, where the Steelers and Pirates stadiums are, and the development around those (also where the casino is to be built). There is NOTHING in town. about 8-10 blocks from the arena is the Cultural district, the symphony hall and playhouse. Other than that, there is the arena. Nights of Pens games, there are 17,000 people in town who otherwise would be getting into their cars/buses/trolleys to go back home.

They actually are attempting to lure people back into town by converting older office spaces into condos--at about $500,000 a pop. As a 31 year old with two kids, why in the world am I moving into the downtown area at that price?

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 04:11 PM

They actually are attempting to lure people back into town by converting older office spaces into condos--at about $500,000 a pop. As a 31 year old with two kids, why in the world am I moving into the downtown area at that price?

Kansas City was at that stage about 10-15 years ago. They were trying to get people to move downtown, but no one would move there because there were no services or entertainment in the area. Now, they've built a new arena downtown and an entertainment and shopping district next door. Also, they added services like new grocery stores and restaurants. Now, they can't build the condos fast enough. The urban core is seeing tremendous residential growth as a result. Also, they're not looking to get 31 year old people to move down there. They're looking to draw empty nest baby-boomers who are looking to downsize. The problem is that until they get lots of things in the area to do, retirees aren't going to want to move there because nothing is convinient. If the city population continues to decline at a 10% clip, it's unlikely that many services will want to open up shop in places where less and less people reside.

kcchief19

03-07-2007, 06:18 PM

I think Mizzou-B-Ball and bsak have both brought up great points and counterpoints. Only two initial impressions.
And while you bring up the Royals having good attendance for bad teams, did you know that since 2000 the Pirates have outdrew the Royals by over 2 million fans? The Pirates have not had a winning season since the early 90s.
I think the Pirates/Royals support is pretty comparable in both cities. I'm not doubting the 2 million fan difference since 2000, but I think the bulk of that difference would certainly have been fueled by the new stadium in Pittsburgh. Discount that, and I think fan support is a wash.

Finally, KC "rent free" deal does have it perks but let's not make it out to be the best thing since sliced bread. The KC deal does not let the ownership have any hand in the venues that take place that aren't hockey. That is being included in the Pittsburgh deal along with the Pens being in full control of the parking and concession reveune. While "rent free" has a great ring to it, it isn't super as it sounds.
For clarification, the KC deal would make the Penguins equaly partners in the arena with no buy-in. They would receive 50 percent of all non-hockey revenue from concerts, trade shows, arena football and other events. The no buy-in portion of the KC offer was more significant than the free rent in most respects. The only thing they would get in Pittsburgh they don't get in Kansas City is parking revenue because virtually all our parking is privately owned. Financially, the Kansas City deal is far superior than the deal in Pittsburgh -- even the team has admitted that.

But, as I said before, I don't think this is about money in more. The only reason for Pittsburgh to stay in Pittsburgh is loyalty to the fans. I believe the team is willing to put up with a lot of grief from the local government to stay, and the only reason they would leave is because they no longer trust and cannot work with the local government.

Like MBBF said, I'll be bittersweet if the Penguins come here because while I'll be very excited to get a great young team here, I'd hate to see a team with such a connection to its city leave. We've been there before. The A's left town in such a bad deal that the AL immediately guaranteed to give us a new team virtually the moment they left -- the 1969 round of MLB expansion was primarily because Charley Finley screwed us so badly. The Kings were doing well in Kansas City, and actually were more profitable in Kansas City than they were during their early days in Sacremento. The Scouts were so poorly run that they failed in Denver too. We now what it's liked to get hosed.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 08:30 PM

But, as I said before, I don't think this is about money in more. The only reason for Pittsburgh to stay in Pittsburgh is loyalty to the fans. I believe the team is willing to put up with a lot of grief from the local government to stay, and the only reason they would leave is because they no longer trust and cannot work with the local government.

Totally agree with this point. If it were a situation where the team was looking for the best deal financially, the Penguins would have been committed to KC a few months ago. The difference financially is quite a bit. Pittsburgh should be thanking their lucky stars for Mario. They're painting him as the bad guy on a lot of the fan boards, but he's honestly the only reason they still have a chance at keeping the team in the city.

Fidatelo

03-07-2007, 08:50 PM

Pittsburgh should be thanking their lucky stars for Mario. They're painting him as the bad guy on a lot of the fan boards, but he's honestly the only reason they still have a chance at keeping the team in the city.

Mario's been the only reason that city's had a team for the last 20 years.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-07-2007, 09:13 PM

Wow, lots of changes in the this situation over the last few hours. Las Vegas is basically out judging from the comments in the article below. Houston has removed itself from consideration. The reason? Kansas City officials have 'substantially sweetened' their deal that was already considered the best offer to the point where Houston officials feel they have no chance at even offering a comparable offer. Also, the meeting on Friday that was supposed to be in KC will now be held at the AEG business offices in Los Angeles, who are building and will own the new arena in KC.

Tomorrow's meeting with PA officials becomes even more important now. They need to really nail something down tomorrow to keep themselves in the running. Allowing the ownership group to go to the AEG business offices in LA with any level of bad vibes regarding the PA officials could make for big problems at this point. I'm guessing that we'll hear specifics on what was added to the KC deal tomorrow or Friday. Local radio is reporting that the Penguins were floored by the new additions.

Although this sweetens the deal for the Pens, it really doesn't change much in regards to the city of Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has always had an inferior offer when compared to KC's offer. All that has happened now is KC showing that they're willing to make the effort to be more than just a pawn in this situation and to put further pressure on Pittsburgh to work quickly. The problem is that without an arena in progress and with part of the funding for a future arena tied up in multiple lawsuits, the Pittsburgh officials are going to have a really tough time reacting as quickly as they need to in order to get things done. Really interesting move by KC and AEG officials.

Houston drops out of bidding for Penguins
Wednesday, March 07, 2007

By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

As state and local political leaders prepared for talks tomorrow with officials of the Pittsburgh Penguins, a city that was interested in having the team move there said it was dropping out of the running.

City of Houston officials said the city was dropping its pursuit of the team for now, saying it could not compete with a new offer from Kansas City.

Michael Moore, chief of staff to Houston Mayor Bill White, said Kansas City had "sweetened substantially" an earlier offer to the Penguins that included free rent and half the building revenues at the new Sprint Center.

"We want an NHL team but we're not going to give everything away," he said. "We're not going to get into this bidding war back and forth."

He said one factor is that Houston already has the National Basketball Association Rockets playing at the Toyota Center, while Kansas City is trying to fill an empty arena.

Earlier in the day, Penguins co-owner Ron Burkle met with Las Vegas Mayor Oscar Goodman to explore a possible move. Mr. Goodman has been seeking to bring a National Basketball Association or National Hockey League team to Las Vegas.

"They had a very pleasant conversation," said Elena Owens, special assistant to the mayor.

She did not know how long the parties met or whether they planned to meet again.

In Las Vegas, the Penguins most likely would have to play in the 23-year-old Thomas & Mack Center until city officials find funding to build a new arena. The Thomas & Mack Center was used for the NBA All-Star Game and won anything but rave reviews from NBA Commissioner David Stern, who said the league would not return to the arena.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-08-2007, 06:29 AM

Today's article pretty much confirms what was implied last night. Very important meeting for Pittsburgh's chances happens today. They've got to get something to the point today where the Pens ownership calls off the meeting with KC/AEG officials. If they walk out of that meeting today without substantial progress, that's not going to be good for Pittsburgh.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07067/767816-61.stm

Penguins owners will meet with officials, NHL chief today in Philadelphia
Thursday, March 08, 2007

By Mark Belko and Tom Barnes, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Penguins officials will meet with state and local leaders today in Philadelphia in what could be a pivotal moment in deciding whether the team stays here or moves elsewhere next season

Penguins co-owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle will meet with Gov. Ed Rendell, Allegheny County Chief Executive Dan Onorato and Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl.

The stakes are so high that National Hockey League Commissioner Gary Bettman, who has been serving as a go-between for the last three weeks, will sit in on the negotiations.

The fact that the meeting is being held in Mr. Rendell's hometown, known for its rough-and-tumble style, is not lost on team officials. Sources close to the Penguins warn privately that Mr. Rendell's style may not be ideally suited for this delicate stage of the talks and said a more collegial approach could hasten the conclusion of negotiations.

A day after vowing that political leaders may go to the NHL to block a move of the team, Mr. Rendell softened his tone yesterday, saying he was "still optimistic" the Penguins would remain in Pittsburgh.

"I think we're pretty close. And I'm looking forward to the next meeting as hopefully even wrapping it up," he told reporters in Harrisburg.

Today's hastily arranged make-or-break session comes four days after Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle declared an impasse in talks over a new arena and said they would "aggressively explore" a possible relocation.

Since receiving the letter Monday declaring the impasse, Mr. Ravenstahl and Mr. Onorato also have been reaching out to the team. Mr. Onorato said yesterday it would be a "tragedy" if the Penguins left Pittsburgh given how close the two sides were.

He said his goal heading into today's meeting is to find out what led negotiations to break down, to resolve it and "to close the deal."

"I think this is the meeting to get it done," he said.

Even as state and local leaders prepare for a crucial face-off, Mr. Burkle and other team officials began exploring other options, meeting for about an hour yesterday with Las Vegas Mayor Oscar Goodman in his office.

"They had a very pleasant conversation," said Elena Owens, special assistant to the mayor.

Mr. Goodman, who has been actively seeking a professional sports team, would not give reporters any details of his talks.

According to the Las Vegas Review-Journal, Mr. Goodman was asked whether he thought Las Vegas was being used as a bargaining chip in the Pittsburgh negotiations. He replied, "I learned that lesson a long time ago. I will never allow the city to be used as leverage."

Team officials also talked yesterday with Tim Lewieke, president of Anschutz Entertainment Group, which will manage the $276 million Sprint Center in Kansas City, to be ready by next season. Officials there have offered a deal that includes no rent or construction costs and a split of the building revenues.

The Penguins also were looking to talk to officials in Houston about a possible relocation, but in a new development last night, Houston dropped its pursuit of the team for now, saying it could not compete with a new offer from Kansas City.

Michael Moore, chief of staff to Houston Mayor Bill White, said Kansas City had "sweetened substantially" an earlier offer to the Penguins that included free rent and half the building revenues at the new Sprint Center.

"We want an NHL team, but we're not going to give everything away," he said. "We're not going to get into this bidding war back and forth."

He said one factor is that Houston already has the NBA Rockets playing at the Toyota Center, while Kansas City is trying to fill an empty arena.

Today, all eyes will be on Philadelphia, where state and local leaders hope to salvage a deal they thought was close to being completed, only to learn otherwise from the team.

The Penguins have agreed to put up $4 million a year toward a new arena -- the same amount Mr. Rendell asked the team to chip in a year ago when he unveiled his Plan B funding formula. That includes $3.6 million a year in rent and $400,000 annually toward capital improvements.

Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle said in their letter they can contribute no more. They also are putting up $500,000 a year for a parking garage.

Under Plan B, another $7.5 million a year would come from casino licensee Don Barden. The state also has pledged $7.5 million a year, up $500,000 since negotiations began, from a gambling-backed economic development fund.

One of the key economic issues still to be decided is how to account for an extra $20 million added as a contingency to a proposed arena bond issue, bringing the total borrowing to $290 million.

There's also a question of whether the money on the table will be enough. The Penguins believe the gambling and team contributions will cover the $290 million; the state believes there's still a gap.

For the team, however, the talks may be as much about tone as substance. The Penguins were upset that public officials pulled back on an initial offer that set their contribution at $2.8 million as well as a table-pounding outburst by Mr. Rendell Jan. 18.

Sources close to the team indicated the last straw came Friday when state officials refused to share interest rate information with them in the dispute over whether more money was needed in the financing plan.

At the same time, Penguins have been welcomed with open arms in Kansas City, where corporate leaders have pledged support in ticket sales and sponsorships.

Despite the ruffled feathers, Mr. Rendell said he is still hopeful an agreement can be reached. He said he told Mr. Bettman the same thing after getting the letter from the Penguins declaring an impasse.

"I said, 'Commissioner, notwithstanding this letter, I think we're making great progress and I actually think we are very close,' " he said.

Mr. Rendell said he sees no "financial advantage" for the Penguins in a move to Las Vegas, because, like Pittsburgh, it would have to build a new hockey arena from scratch. That differs from Kansas City, which is completing a new arena and wants a hockey team to fill it.

Mr. Rendell said that since the two sides started meeting two months ago, the Penguins have asked for about 14 changes from the original Plan B proposal. He said his "guess" is that public officials have "made 12 or 13 of the 14."

The Penguins also have raised concerns about the impact the losers' appeals of the Pittsburgh slots license award will have on funding, although Mr. Onorato and Mr. Ravenstahl did not see that as a major impediment.

Suburban Rhythm

03-08-2007, 06:40 AM

Pretty off the topic here, but about 2 weeks ago, I passed Dan Onarato on my way to work. I was getting coffee, he was walking down Grant Street (no doubt to check out the Convention Center that is also falling apart)...
I was tempted to kick him in the shin and tell him to quit jagging off Mario.
But I opted for a keep the Pens as I crossed the street.

And Yes, today is pretty much the day.

Dr. Sak

03-08-2007, 06:51 AM

Suburban Rhythm

03-08-2007, 06:52 AM

The latest news is that the Penguins agreed to allow Rendell free reign of the concessions stands during their games as part of the deal. Since stuffing his fat face is the only thing Rendell is even slight competent at I don't see any reason why the deal won't get done.
Except he'll have to drive in from Philly. Of course, with his driver doing about 110 down the turnpike, he'll be here in no time.

Dr. Sak

03-08-2007, 06:56 AM

Except he'll have to drive in from Philly. Of course, with his driver doing about 110 down the turnpike, he'll be here in no time.

Another funny off topic story about Rendell. He came to our work to visit our Manufacturing plant. Our HR department told all of us engineers to leave early for the day because they know non of us like him. So I am walking out next to a co-worker as we part to go to our cars. I get a call 2 mins later from that co-worker telling me he almost got hit by a car speeding through the parking lot, and guess who's car it was? Yep Ed Rendell.

Suburban Rhythm

03-08-2007, 06:58 AM

This might have been posted in this thread already, but found it interesting...

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/2006/0213/sports_overextend/1.html

Pittsburgh is the 4th most over-extended sports market....KC is 5th.

Dr. Sak

03-08-2007, 06:58 AM

Critical arena meeting today with Pens, Rendell
By Andrew Conte and Rob Rossi
TRIBUNE-REVIEW

After a "pleasant conversation" Wednesday with Las Vegas Mayor Oscar Goodman, Penguins officials are expected back in Pennsylvania today for a make-or-break meeting on building a new Pittsburgh arena.

Team owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle planned to meet in Philadelphia with Gov. Ed Rendell, said team spokesman Tom McMillan. Burkle traveled to Las Vegas without Lemieux.

The California billionaire also intended to talk with AEG, the company operating Kansas City's new Sprint Center, McMillan said.

Penguins officials decided not to hold a meeting in Houston with city leaders and officials of the Toyota Center, an arena official in Texas said.

If negotiations with the Penguins don't succeed, "we would certainly not take it lying down," Rendell said yesterday. "I would feel a deep obligation to the people of Pittsburgh, the Pittsburgh region and the Penguins' fans."

National Hockey League Commissioner Gary Bettman and Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly are expected to attend the meeting in Philadelphia. Rendell reiterated that he would seek the league's help to keep the team from leaving.

"Again, I don't believe that will be necessary," Rendell said, calling the latest offer "a great stadium deal."

The meeting comes after Lemieux and Burkle declared an impasse in the arena talks and said they would "aggressively explore relocation." The team's lease at Mellon Arena expires in June.

This is a vital meeting for a deal to be reached in Pittsburgh, said Marc Ganis, president of SportsCorp, a Chicago-based consulting firm, who advised local officials on securing stadiums for the Steelers and Pirates.

"The sides don't have to come to an agreement," Ganis said. "What they have to do is convince Bettman that the deal on the table in Pennsylvania is substantial and that there is flexibility to resolve the open issues."

In Las Vegas, Burkle met privately with Goodman, who emerged saying he had a "very pleasant conversation" with the Penguins officials, said the mayor's spokeswoman, Elena Owens.

Goodman told the Las Vegas Review-Journal he does not believe the Penguins are using Las Vegas as leverage to secure a quick resolution to the arena situation in Pittsburgh. Penguins officials did not tour the Thomas & Mack Center and there are no plans for them to do so, said facility director Daren Libonati.

A spokesman for Houston Mayor Bill White said the city extended an invitation to team owners. The Penguins would have to share Houston's Toyota Center with the National Basketball Association's Rockets.

"We put the ball in their court. When we heard what was going on up there, we said the offer is still open to come down here and check it out," said mayoral spokesman Michael Moore.

However, Tad Brown, the CEO of Clutch City Sports & Entertainment, which operates the Toyota Center, said last night the Penguins decided against a meeting.

"They decided not to come," Brown said, explaining that he understands Kansas City officials have sweetened their offer to the Penguins.

"It sounds like Kansas City has offered them a much more favorable deal," Brown said.

An official with AEG confirmed last night that it has sweetened the offer.

In January, Kansas City officials offered the Penguins free rent and partial revenue to play in the new Sprint Center.

"We don't spend our days worrying about whether or not they will leave Pittsburgh, but we do now strongly believe that Kansas City is where they will end up," said Michael Roth, vice president of communications for AEG.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-08-2007, 07:11 AM

I think the Pirates/Royals support is pretty comparable in both cities. I'm not doubting the 2 million fan difference since 2000, but I think the bulk of that difference would certainly have been fueled by the new stadium in Pittsburgh. Discount that, and I think fan support is a wash.

Yes, that was one of those situations where the stats he used don't tell the actual story. The stadium is what caused that difference. Also, using the population information that I gave earlier, Pittsburgh actually has 28% more people than KC in their metro area (2000 census). Given that information, you'll actually find that per capita, Pittsburgh actually drew less fans than Kansas City did 2000-present even with the boost caused by the stadiums. Also, Pittsburgh averaged 3 wins more than Kansas City during that time period. Neither won any division championships.

Here are the numbers from 2000-present:

KC averaged roughly 1.55M fans per season in a city of roughly 1.75M people. The team averaged 66 wins during that time period.

Pittsburgh averaged roughly 1.85M fans per season in a city of roughly 2.4M people. The team averaged 69 wins during that time period.

The numbers are even worse for Pittsburgh if you go back to 1990. Note that Pittsburgh held a 33% advantage in population in 1990. Here are those statistics for 1990-present:

KC averaged roughly 1.73M fans per season during that time period. The team averaged 70 wins during that time period and had 4 winning seasons with no division championships.

Pittsburgh averaged roughly 1.61M fans per season during that time period. The team averaged 74 wins during that time period and had 3 winning seasons with 3 division championships.

So, in summary, Kansas City drew over 100,000 more fans per season in a town that's roughly 30% smaller than Pittsburgh to see a team that won less games per season, had no division championships and had no new stadium to increase fan interest. The fallacy that somehow KC doesn't support the Royals is exactly that......totally false.

Here's the raw data if anyone is curious.......

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/kc/history/year_by_year_results.jsp

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/pit/history/year_by_year_results.jsp

Suburban Rhythm

03-08-2007, 07:32 AM

Yes, that was one of those situations where the stats he used don't tell the actual story. The stadium is what caused that difference. Also, using the population information that I gave earlier, Pittsburgh actually has 28% more people than KC in their metro area (2000 census). Given that information, you'll actually find that per capita, Pittsburgh actually drew less fans than Kansas City did 2000-present even with the boost caused by the stadiums. Also, Pittsburgh averaged 3 wins more than Kansas City during that time period. Neither won any division championships.

Here are the numbers from 2000-present:

KC averaged roughly 1.55M fans per season in a city of roughly 1.75M people. The team averaged 66 wins during that time period.

Pittsburgh averaged roughly 1.85M fans per season in a city of roughly 2.4M people. The team averaged 69 wins during that time period.

The numbers are even worse for Pittsburgh if you go back to 1990. Note that Pittsburgh held a 33% advantage in population in 1990. Here are those statistics for 1990-present:

KC averaged roughly 1.73M fans per season during that time period. The team averaged 70 wins during that time period and had 4 winning seasons with no division championships.

Pittsburgh averaged roughly 1.61M fans per season during that time period. The team averaged 74 wins during that time period and had 3 winning seasons with 3 division championships.

So, in summary, Kansas City drew over 100,000 more fans per season in a town that's roughly 30% smaller than Pittsburgh to see a team that won less games per season, had no division championships and had no new stadium to increase fan interest. The fallacy that somehow KC doesn't support the Royals is exactly that......totally false.

Here's the raw data if anyone is curious.......

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/kc/history/year_by_year_results.jsp

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/pit/history/year_by_year_results.jsp
Not going to dispute those numbers, but that is comparing apples to oranges.

Baseball, in Pittsburgh anyway, is a leisure activity. People go to 1) see the (relatively) new park 2) be outside somewhere nice in the summer and 3) perhaps see a baseball game. But the game is distinctly third.

Basing hockey attendance (Pittsburgh's actual and KC's projected) off that is a little silly. Why not use the Chiefs and Steelers, both who have sold out every game for the last how many years?

To add on from from post yesterday, this seems to be the argument--

I get what you are saying, declincing population/tax base, etc etc, how in the world can they afford to build a new building?
What reply is this-- how can they afford not to? The Downtown area is DEAD without that arena.

If the Penguins leave, there will be clamoring for a new multi-purpose building in about 3 years. While they still might be able to get the casino money and other state funds, who is then picking up the $4M a year or so the Pens were contributing? There would be no main tenant to fork over what amounts to about 20% of the cost.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-08-2007, 07:46 AM

Not going to dispute those numbers, but that is comparing apples to oranges.

Baseball, in Pittsburgh anyway, is a leisure activity. People go to 1) see the (relatively) new park 2) be outside somewhere nice in the summer and 3) perhaps see a baseball game. But the game is distinctly third.

Basing hockey attendance (Pittsburgh's actual and KC's projected) off that is a little silly. Why not use the Chiefs and Steelers, both who have sold out every game for the last how many years?

To add on from from post yesterday, this seems to be the argument--

I get what you are saying, declincing population/tax base, etc etc, how in the world can they afford to build a new building?
What reply is this-- how can they afford not to? The Downtown area is DEAD without that arena.

If the Penguins leave, there will be clamoring for a new multi-purpose building in about 3 years. While they still might be able to get the casino money and other state funds, who is then picking up the $4M a year or so the Pens were contributing? There would be no main tenant to fork over what amounts to about 20% of the cost.

Chiefs and Steelers are pretty much the same situation from 1990 on. There's no difference overall from a percentage of seats sold. The Steelers have had more post-season success, though I'd have to check to see regular season wins. I only responded about baseball because that was what he brought up as a way to show increased support. I agree that it doesn't relate to hockey totally, but it was a bad example to use given the numbers I posted.

Let's assume that the Penguins leave for KC. If that happens, Pittsburgh will just end up having a situation much like Cleveland did with the Browns. The NHL will move a team or give an expansion team to that city that would have been headed for KC if the Pens hadn't moved there. Pittsburgh will build a new arena for that team and hockey will be back in Pittsburgh. To some extent, the real competition here is not who gets the Pens, but rather who gets the team with the talented young nucleus that the Pens currently have. Both cities will eventually end up with NHL teams a few years from now.

Dr. Sak

03-08-2007, 07:57 AM

Suburban Rhythm

03-08-2007, 07:58 AM

Chiefs and Steelers are pretty much the same situation from 1990 on. There's no difference overall from a percentage of seats sold. The Steelers have had more post-season success, though I'd have to check to see regular season wins. I only responded about baseball because that was what he brought up as a way to show increased support. I agree that it doesn't relate to hockey totally, but it was a bad example to use given the numbers I posted.

Let's assume that the Penguins leave for KC. If that happens, Pittsburgh will just end up having a situation much like Cleveland did with the Browns. The NHL will move a team or give an expansion team to that city that would have been headed for KC if the Pens hadn't moved there. Pittsburgh will build a new arena for that team and hockey will be back in Pittsburgh. To some extent, the real competition here is not who gets the Pens, but rather who gets the team with the talented young nucleus that the Pens currently have. Both cities will eventually end up with NHL teams a few years from now.

I'd like to think that is the case, although I'd prefer just to keep the Pens here.

But, same as KC looking to draw a team, a new building in a must first. KC built their's with no tenant. For Pittsburgh to do that, the money needs to come from somewhere. If that $4M makeup comes from either existing Regional Asset District tax money, or a tax increase, why isn't that an option now?

Suburban Rhythm

03-08-2007, 08:04 AM

I'm not sure if Suburban can confirm this or not but Crosby has been pretty vocal in recent interviews that he doesn't want to go to KC. He has even hinted that when he becomes a RFA at the end of next season he would look to go elsewhere. And I do believe that teams would be willing to part with the huge amounts of draft picks they would lose by signing him as a RFA.
Can't say I've heard that.

He has said in the past he would accept below market (which for him would be the league max) if it meant keeping the roster intact.

Not refuting what you are saying bsak, but Sid also seems to always have the right/politcally correct answer for everything. I don't know that he'd come out and say that to the media.

Something to keep in mind once he hits RFA-
1) I believe he must actually reach RFA. If I understand the current CBA, the Penguins can NOT negotiate an extension with him while he's still in his entry deal.
2) However, he is under no obligation to sign any offer sheets. The other 29 teams can all offer him max deals, but if he chooses not to sign the offer, it doesn't matter.
3) If he does choose to sign the offer, the Pens will match it. Period.

He's Penguins/whatever the KC name would be property until he's 25, at least.

Dr. Sak

03-08-2007, 08:11 AM

Can't say I've heard that.

He has said in the past he would accept below market (which for him would be the league max) if it meant keeping the roster intact.

Not refuting what you are saying bsak, but Sid also seems to always have the right/politcally correct answer for everything. I don't know tha the'd come out and say that to the media.

Something to keep in mind once he hits RFA-
1) I believe he must actually reach RFA. If I understand the current CBA, the Penguins can NOT negotiate an extension with him while he's still in his entry deal.
2) However, he is under no obligation to sign an offer sheets. The other 29 teams can all offer him max deals, but if he chooses not to sign the offer, it doesn't matter.
3) If he does choose to sign the offer, the Pens will match it. Period.

He's Penguins/whatever the KC name would be property until he's 25, at least.

I know I found it some where while digging around yesterday. I am still searching. Side note...this makes me sick sticking up for Crosby. I really can't stand him.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-08-2007, 08:46 AM

I'm not sure if Suburban can confirm this or not but Crosby has been pretty vocal in recent interviews that he doesn't want to go to KC. He has even hinted that when he becomes a RFA at the end of next season he would look to go elsewhere. And I do believe that teams would be willing to part with the huge amounts of draft picks they would lose by signing him as a RFA.

To be honest, what the players want doesn't really doesn't matter all that much. There are going to be some that love going there and some that don't like it at all. In future years, KC would be very attractive to some and not attractive to others. It's all relative.

KC is known for being well-liked as a place to play in general. The media pressure is relatively low, the schools and community are very laid back and the fans are a loyal bunch. The Chiefs have the highest percentage of all NFL teams of players who stay in the community after their careers are over. The Royals are in the top 5 in the MLB on that same stat. There always going to be some people that don't want to come to certain markets in certain situations.

My understanding from what I've read is that if the Pens, wherever they end up, want to keep Crosby for the foreseeable future, they can do that under the NHL rules regarding players that young. Even if he were to leave, the draft picks would be instrumental in building the franchise.

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-08-2007, 09:07 AM

WOW! The KC/AEG group improved the offer significantly to the Penguins ownership group. KC has now offered to build a new exclusive practice facility for the Penguins (10-15M is the rough guess on that offer) plus they have increased the percentage of profits that the Penguins get from arena revenues (previous offer was that the Penguins would get 50% of all event revenue, including concerts, sporting events, and convention meetings in the arena).

This is going to make it even tougher for Pittsburgh. They need to make sure that the ownership group doesn't leave the table in Philly today until a deal is done. Best part of this deal is that KC is still not spending a dime more. All of these additions come out of the private sector from the AEG group. I honestly never knew what a difference a privately-run arena could have for the community. They take all the risks and the community is in a win-win situation. It's a wonderful position to be in for Kansas City.

Dr. Sak

03-08-2007, 09:26 AM

Mizzou B-ball fan

03-08-2007, 09:49 AM

I really don't think it matters how much Kansas City sweetens their offer at this point. Read the articles on ESPN and even TSN. All of them clearly state that if there is a reasonable offer from the city the league is going to force (for lack of a better term right now) the Penguins to accept the offer and stay in Pittsburgh.

People have been calling Bettman's office all day yesterday and today. The response that they get from his secretary is "The NHL does not want to lose this market, who she said is "one of our strongest". And that Mr Bettman will do what he can to help the situation."

There's no doubt that the KC deal is better but what KC doesn't have right now is the support of the NHL removing a team from "one of the strongest" fan bases to a place where hockey failed once. You can say how much things have changed over the years but the fact is KC had a team and lost it.

To some extent, you are correct that the NHL would like to keep a team in the Pittsburgh market. I certainly don't think that you're wrong in that regard. However, even if the team were to leave, it would be likely that they would do something like what they did with the Cleveland Browns where the city would hold onto the name and they'd just give Pittsburgh a new franchise once they have the whole arena thing straightened out.

With that said, I think your idea that the NHL will turn down this kind of offer simply due to loyalty is a bit out of line with reality. The NHL is still recovering from the sting of the strike/lockout from a couple of years ago. Media revenue is way down from what it was and there are a lot of teams that simply aren't making the money that they used to. The NHL would set a dangerous precedent if it were to hold the Pens in Pittsburgh without an arena deal simply because they want to keep the team in place. The NHL can't force the Pens to pay $120M into an arena deal that could cost them millions in extra fees. Granted, this could be resolved, but it doesn't appear that the government is willing to take on that risk that they're trying to pass on to the team at this point.

The other reason it sets a dangerous precedent is the vast difference in offers. The difference in cash outlay when you put together what it would cost the Pens in Pittsburgh and the free facility with practice facility alone is $130-135 million dollars. That's not pocket change. That doesn't even include the percentage of revenue that the Pens would received from all events at the arena. The fact that the Pens (specifically Mario Lemieux) is even continuing negotiations due to loyalty to Pittsburgh in the face of these numbers is honestly quite amazing. 99% of people would have already moved the franchise at this point.

Let's assume a block on the move for a moment. The reason a block would be dangerous is that the Board of Governors would be essentially telling other owners that they have to take offers that are vastly inferior to a bid from another town solely due to loyalty to that city and its fan base despite the fact that the increased unknown costs down the road may hurt the franchises bottom line. As a NHL owner trying to maximize the profit and equity in your investment, how would you feel if you were put in that position in future years because of the Pittsburgh block? It's not a good way to do business and the Board of Governors and the team owners woudn't be wise to put themselves in that kind of a position.