Breaking: Saddam to be strung up within next 3 hours

[Ben E Lou]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/1.5/ceiling/bnb/breaking_news.gif Saddam Hussein's execution will take place before 6:00 a.m. Saturday local time (10:00 p.m. Friday ET), Munir Haddad, a judge on the appeals court that upheld the former dictator's death sentence, told CNN.

[molson]

I wish our death penalty was so efficient.

[WVUFAN]

I wish our death penalty was so efficient.

No kidding. Our mass murderers get to languish in jail for decades on our tax dollars while their lawyers tie up the courts with appeal after ridiculous appeal.

[DaddyTorgo]

woo woo!

world won't miss him

[Vegas Vic]

I really feel for our troops. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,239877,00.html) While I could care less about Saddam, it's now going to become much more obvious that you can't solve centuries of tribal hatred with military force.

[JPhillips]

What a fucking joke this trial and execution have become. I don't think we could have designed a more arbitrary system if we tried.

And before I get slammed, of course Saddam is an evil butcher who deserves his sentence.

[Glengoyne]

I wish our death penalty was so efficient.
Hear Hear!

Or is it Here Here! Or maybe Hear Here?

Note: I've asked that question before, and no one ever responds.

Note: Sorry for the distraction.

[WVUFAN]

What a fucking joke this trial and execution have become. I don't think we could have designed a more arbitrary system if we tried.

And before I get slammed, of course Saddam is an evil butcher who deserves his sentence.

Not gonna slam you, but I'm not understanding your point -- you don't like the system the Iraqis use, but the result is fine with you... so while you feel the system is arbitrary, the end result is right what it should be.

Right?

[Senator]

Our long national nightmare continues...

[JPhillips]

There is no process that we can point to as being fair. This should have been an introduction to a fair and impartial judiciary, but it's been an arbitrary process throughout. An announcement that he'll be killed within three hours is ridiculous.

[Vegas Vic]

you don't like the system the Iraqis use, but the result is fine with you.

Does someone want to tell me what an "Iraqi" is? It appears as though we're the only ones who think in those terms, because the people who live there sure as hell don't think of themselves as "Iraqis".

[WVUFAN]

Does someone want to tell me what an "Iraqi" is? It appears as though we're the only ones who think in those terms, because the people who live there sure as hell don't think of themselves as "Iraqis".

By "Iraqi" I mean a person who lives within the country of Iraq. Whether they choose to call themselves that is irrevelant. Much like I might call a person who lives in West Virginia a "West Virginian" whether or not they think of themselves in that context.

I understand your point, just wanted to clarify my meaning in that message.

[Glengoyne]

Does someone want to tell me what an "Iraqi" is? It appears as though we're the only ones who think in those terms, because the people who live there sure as hell don't think of themselves as "Iraqis".

I don't get it? The citizens of Iraq don't consider themselves to be from Iraq? Is there some other word that they use? Some other word that we should use? I can't really see a problem with the term. Isn't it just like calling someone British, Irish, American, Somali, Argentinian, or Saudi?

[WVUFAN]

An announcement that he'll be killed within three hours is ridiculous.


I agree. They should have strung him up right after the trial was up. They waited a little long to execute him.

[Vegas Vic]

By "Iraqi" I mean a person who lives within the country of Iraq. Whether they choose to call themselves that is irrevelant. Much like I might call a person who lives in West Virginia a "West Virginian" whether or not they think of themselves in that context.

I understand your point, just wanted to clarify my meaning in that message.

I wasn't referring to whatever term they may call themselves. I was referring to the larger issue that the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds in Iraq don't even consider themselves to be fellow countrymen anymore. Ironically, this was a non-issue when Hussein was in power.

[Ben E Lou]

There is no process that we can point to as being fair. This should have been an introduction to a fair and impartial judiciary, but it's been an arbitrary process throughout. An announcement that he'll be killed within three hours is ridiculous.To clarify, it doesn't sound like it was an announcement, but basically a leak.

[Mustang]

Our long national nightmare continues...

What? 'Full House' get put back on the air?

[cartman]

I just wish we could have done this for a lot cheaper than $500 billion.

[Greyroofoo]

Personally I think he should be hanged just as the clock strickes midnight on New Years.

Would be a great dramatic reffect.

[Raiders Army]

Personally, I don't see how most of you cares about this. It doesn't affect you at all.

[st.cronin]

It would have been much better if had been "killed" trying to avoid apprehension.

[k0ruptr]

Personally I think he should be hanged just as the clock strickes midnight on New Years.

Would be a great dramatic reffect.

great, with a live video outside times square as well.

[rexallllsc]

Meanwhile, al Qaeda members Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri are still on the loose.

Meanwhile, the Taliban is slowly retaking Afghanistan, and some of their leadership is still on the loose.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

[Glengoyne]

I wasn't referring to whatever term they may call themselves. I was referring to the larger issue that the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds in Iraq don't even consider themselves to be fellow countrymen anymore. Ironically, this was a non-issue when Hussein was in power.

Well not really. It was an issue, but there was a heavy handed dictator with an Army willing to do his bidding holding the thugs at bay. What happened was the US allowed a power vaccuum to develop in post war Iraq, and that vacuum allowed these, essentially criminals, to gain power at many levels.

To me, the most reasonable argument NOT to go into Iraq was that we probably wouldn't be able to resolve the exact division that we see today. I still felt that something had to be done about Hussein, but this was by far the most persuasive argument against action. Actually, I thought the Kurds would be a much larger issue than the Sunni/Shiite conflict, but those who with actual experience with the region correctly identified the Sunni Shiite conflict to be a bigger problem than I honestly could ever have expected.

[Mustang]

It would have been much better if had been "killed" trying to avoid apprehension.

Or accidentally slit his throat cutting that ZZ top beard off

[cartman]

This clip from Cannibal! The Musical is grotesquely fitting (might not be safe for work):

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Q9ZEdOLSE

[Vegas Vic]

Actually, I thought the Kurds would be a much larger issue than the Sunni/Shiite conflict, but those who with actual experience with the region correctly identified the Sunni Shiite conflict to be a bigger problem than I honestly could ever have expected.

I agree, and now that we've "delivered" democracy to Iraq, our troops are stuck in the crossfire between Iraq's "citizens". Could someone tell me what our troops are supposed to be doing at this point? I'm not even sure that they know, and that's a damned shame.

[Radii]

This clip from Cannibal! The Musical is grotesquely fitting (might not be safe for work):

Just when I had almost gotten that awful awful movie out of my head forever.... ugh.

[molson]

I can't wait until this is done. The whole "handing Saddam over to the Iraqis" thing seems a tad risky (especially when an appeals court judge announces the time frame of the execution).

[Noble_Platypus]

I wish our death penalty was so efficient.

It seems most people agree with you.


http://www2.foxnews.com/polls/poll_results/bg_results_Business.jpg__basic_1902.htm

[molson]

It seems most people agree with you.


http://www2.foxnews.com/polls/poll_results/bg_results_Business.jpg__basic_1902.htm

That's the most loaded wording of a question I've ever seen (though I agree with premise).

[M GO BLUE!!!]

What a fucking joke this trial and execution have become. I don't think we could have designed a more arbitrary system if we tried.

And before I get slammed, of course Saddam is an evil butcher who deserves his sentence.

I might be the only person in the country who agrees with you. Saddam is a man who likely deserves to have his neck snapped for many things in his life, but the trial and conviction could have practically been scripted. Was there ever a chance that he could have argued the In order to make an omelet defense and cited the current events in Iraq as a justification? No. As soon as he was captured his execution was imminent.

If the result of a trial is predetermined before it begins with absolutely no chance any evidence, argument or justification can affect the outcome, then why have the trial in the first place?

[st.cronin]

If the result of a trial is predetermined before it begins with absolutely no chance any evidence, argument or justification can affect the outcome, then why have the trial in the first place?


In order that there be a permanent record of his crimes. The Nuremberg trials were, if anything, even more loaded than Saddam's, but their purpose was noble.

[AlexB]

Congrats, the western world has 'delivered' democracy to the Iraqi people. No win situation - most Iraquis don't give a shit about Saddam right now, more about where their slice of the pie is coming from.

Sunnis/Shiites is no longer the distinction people need to make - now it's warlords vs. capitalists - if we stay, the latter win, if we evacuate, the former win. There is no democracy/freedom - there's only one set of people vs. another.

Saddam is either gonna be a martyr or a cause. The western world has fucked up big time here - and unfortunately while the US has been dumb, we've been dumber. Think Alec Guiness in the original Star Wars - 'Who is the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows?'

Bush might be a fuckwit, but unfortunately for me Blair is even dumber. Reminds me of a Jim Carrey film somewhere, but I can't quite place it...

[M GO BLUE!!!]

That's the most loaded wording of a question I've ever seen (though I agree with premise).

Should the U.S. save millions in tax dollars by having a shorter time period for prisoners on Death Row, like Iraq?

LOL!

How could a question be more loaded?

[JPhillips]

What about,

Should the U.S. save millions in tax dollars by having a shorter time period for prisoners on Death Row and give ponies to children?

[WVUFAN]

What about,

Should the U.S. save millions in tax dollars by having a shorter time period for prisoners on Death Row and give ponies to children?

Funny.

It may be loaded, but it's stating the truth. The US would save millions of dollars by having shorter time periods for Death Row immates.

[cartman]

Funny.

It may be loaded, but it's stating the truth. The US would save millions of dollars by having shorter time periods for Death Row immates.

We'd save 100X that amount by legalizing marijuana and releasing the non-violent criminals in prison now due to pot, but that is a discussion for another thread.

[molson]

Funny.

It may be loaded, but it's stating the truth. The US would save millions of dollars by having shorter time periods for Death Row immates.

Sure, but I bet the results would be somewhat different if the question was, "Should the US increase the number of innocent people that are executed by having shorter time periods for Death Row inmates?". Perhaps the NY Times will run that poll.

[Easy Mac]

What about,

Should the U.S. save millions in tax dollars by having a shorter time period for prisoners on Death Row and give ponies to children?

what kind of ponies? will the US have to pay for the upkeep of ponies and their disposal?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

We'd save 100X that amount by legalizing marijuana and releasing the non-violent criminals in prison now due to pot, but that is a discussion for another thread.

I didn't realize Saddam was being executed for selling trey bags... :D

[WVUFAN]

We'd save 100X that amount by legalizing marijuana and releasing the non-violent criminals in prison now due to pot, but that is a discussion for another thread.

Yup. Indeed another discussion, as I have a feeling we're in completely opposite viewpoints on that matter.

[AlexB]

what kind of ponies? will the US have to pay for the upkeep of ponies and their disposal?

Nice. If you're not careful you'll get the US/UK government onto you to offer you a job to deflect current affairs from the events themselves to the post-effect...

NOTE - to anyone from a country whose troops are in Iraq/Afghanistan/similar - the locals like the lack of killing while you are there; they don't give a shit about the wider picture. As far as we're concerned, handing power back as is the popular picture would mean betraying the current anti-Muslim gospel, and therefore is not gonnna happen....

[Rizon]

I'm not sure what the point of hanging a Saddam look-a-like and smuggling the real one back to the US is.

[King of New York]

I'm puzzled by 1) why this information was leaked, rather than officially disclosed (if that is indeed the case), and 2) why they (whoever they are) chose to schedule the hanging for the wee hours of the morning, Iraq time, and Friday night, US time. Scheduling it for a tiome when no one is awake or paying attention suggests that those imposing the sentence are not terribly proud of what they are doing, and are trying not to draw attention to the event. Or maybe it is for security reasons?

[SirFozzie]

It's because a Muslim holiday of forgiveness begins at Sunup local time, and it would REALLLLLLLY piss off the folks to do it during the holiday

[Icy]

[conspiracy mode ON]

How can we be sure that is the real Sadam the one that will be hung?
What about if it all is an act?
What about if there is a deal to hide him under a new identity somewhere and to hung another poor guy that looks like him?

[conspiracy mode OFF]

[cartman]

[conspiracy mode ON]

How can we be sure that is the real Sadam the one that will be hung?
What about if it all is an act?
What about if there is a deal to hide him under a new identity somewhere and to hung another poor guy that looks like him?

[conspiracy mode OFF]

It's 3am in Toledo, Icy. Go back to sleep...

:D

[Icy]

It's 3am in Toledo, Icy. Go back to sleep...

:D

Yep, going to now :)

[RendeR]

My few tidbits of personal opinion:

1) I hope his neck doesn't rbeak and he gets to hang tehre till he asphyxiates.
2) Death row inmates shouldn't get any time, once sentenced they should die, period. I fully believe that if you've reached death row you're guilty enough of something to deserve it. In our history how many "innocent" people have been executed?
3) Yes, Iraq is a mess, yes it was a rediculous mistake to go in there as we did. We should have let the SEAL teams snipe his ass in 1991 when we had the opportunity. Would have avoided SO much of this bullshit.

[Mustang]

I'm just waiting for it to appear on youtube and all the edited variations..

[cartman]

I'm just waiting for it to appear on youtube and all the edited variations..

Look for it on liveleak dot com first. It used to be Ogrish, but they sold out.

[MJ4H]

What about,

Should the U.S. save millions in tax dollars by having a shorter time period for prisoners on Death Row and give ponies to children?
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/Gorgonian14/pony.jpg

[Mustang]

Saddam is sooooooo getting one of these tonight

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_erection


In case anyone is wondering how the hell I found this one Wikipedia.. I put in liveleak and this was one of the hits.

[Joe]

Half hour left?

"An adviser to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said Saddam would be executed before 6 a.m. Saturday, or 10 p.m. Friday EST. Saddam and others were convicted of murder in the killings of 148 Shiite Muslims from an Iraqi town where assassins tried to kill Saddam in 1982."

[cartman]

I wonder what O'Reilly will say if Hussein's last meal is falafel.

[Easy Mac]

I wonder what O'Reilly will say if Hussein's last meal is falafel.

depends on what kind of falafel

[Noble_Platypus]

My few tidbits of personal opinion:

1) I hope his neck doesn't rbeak and he gets to hang tehre till he asphyxiates.
2) Death row inmates shouldn't get any time, once sentenced they should die, period. I fully believe that if you've reached death row you're guilty enough of something to deserve it. In our history how many "innocent" people have been executed?
3) Yes, Iraq is a mess, yes it was a rediculous mistake to go in there as we did. We should have let the SEAL teams snipe his ass in 1991 when we had the opportunity. Would have avoided SO much of this bullshit.

I agree on all 3 points

[Toddzilla]

2) Death row inmates shouldn't get any time, once sentenced they should die, period. I fully believe that if you've reached death row you're guilty enough of something to deserve it. In our history how many "innocent" people have been executed?Enough so that we need a system much more protective of the accused (and convicted) as the one you propose.

[WVUFAN]

Enough so that we need a system much more protective of the accused (and convicted) as the one you propose.

The convicted does not need protecting.

[Joe]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i132/VINCESPUKE/1450607395_m.gif

[cartman]

The convicted does not need protecting.

Are you gunning for the role of Pontius Pilate?

/just sayin'

[Joe]

2) Death row inmates shouldn't get any time, once sentenced they should die, period. I fully believe that if you've reached death row you're guilty enough of something to deserve it. In our history how many "innocent" people have been executed?


The 123 innocent people who have been released from death row since 1973 disagree.

[stevew]

Shouldn't this be intitled "Neck Breaking News"

[JeffNights]

Originally Posted by RendeR
2) Death row inmates shouldn't get any time, once sentenced they should die, period. I fully believe that if you've reached death row you're guilty enough of something to deserve it. In our history how many "innocent" people have been executed?


The 123 innocent people who have been released from death row since 1973 disagree.




PWNED

[Easy Mac]

Oh that Saddam, the great Ironist
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2003_Feb_3/ai_97189368
Saddam says Iraq to 'break the neck' of U.S. if attacked


Asian Political News (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ), Feb 3, 2003 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2003_Feb_3)

<!-- google_ad_section_start --><!-- if there is a query term, show widget --> <!-- code re-engineered from partners/us/search_art_main --> Find More Results for: "saddam neck break "
How did you vote... (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_4_38/ai_n16776182)
The Break-Fast Club (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmopi/is_200311/ai_kepm322810)
An intellectual's... (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmtpi/is_200604/ai_n16256741)
Saddam says he... (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20060406/ai_n16194022)




<!-- no query term? print empty widget --> BAGHDAD, Jan. 30 Kyodo
President Saddam Hussein warned the United States on Wednesday that if it attacked Iraq it would suffer considerable losses and said if ''evil persists in the heads of the Americans, we will break their necks.''
The president was speaking to a group of senior army commanders. His speech of about one hour, aired by official Iraqi TV networks, came a day after U.S. President George W. Bush delivered his State of the Union address conveying Bush's determination to attack Iraq militarily if necessary to disarm the country of weapons of mass destruction.
''Iraqis have prepared what they can (for confrontation),'' a defiant Saddam said. ''Addressing the Americans in this manner does not mean that we are afraid of evil but want to evade him and keep him away.''
Citing the U.S. building up a military presence in the Middle East and conducting ''propaganda campaigns'' aimed at Iraqis, Saddam said, ''Iraq has calculated all this and has included it in its (military) exercises in detail, including how the population would confront them.''
Advertisement
<script language="JavaScript1.1" src="http://oascentral.looksmart.com/RealMedia/ads/adstream_jx.ads/www.findarticles.com/p/articles/tn_news/mi_m0WDQ/@Middle"> </script> <script language="JavaScript"><!-- if (parseFloat(navigator.appVersion) == 0) { document.write('<IFRAME WIDTH=300 HEIGHT=250 MARGINWIDTH=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 HSPACE=0 VSPACE=0 FRAMEBORDER=0 SCROLLING=no BORDERCOLOR="#000000" SRC="http://oascentral.looksmart.com/RealMedia/ads/adstream_sx.ads/www.findarticles.com/p/articles/tn_news/mi_m0WDQ/@Middle"></iframe>'); } // --> </script>

Saddam said past experiences of war have fortified his troops, accusing the U.S. of being ''deluded.''
He then said Iraq fighting back would result in the U.S. and the world suffering economic harm.
COPYRIGHT 2003 Kyodo News International, Inc.
COPYRIGHT 2003 Gale Group

[Easy Mac]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/u/U/saddam_hang.gif

[Toddzilla]

The convicted does not need protecting.We were talking about the wrongly convicted, and yes, they do need protection.

[Rizon]

The 123 innocent people who have been released from death row since 1973 disagree.

Nah, people with bad luck should get the fuck out of life.

[Toddzilla]

The convicted does not need protecting.We were talking about the wrongly convicted, and yes, they do need protection.

[WVUFAN]

We were talking about the wrongly convicted, and yes, they do need protection.

No court system is perfect. It comes down to a simple question of philosophy -- conceding that the court system is not perfect and that mistakes WILL be made, are you willing to execute potentially innocent people to ensure the guilty ones also die, or do you not punish anyone appropriately for fear of getting the wrong person?

I believe in the former, you the latter. I honestly think that's what it breaks down to. I'm willing to allow those 173 people to die to eliminate the thousands who deserved to die. Justice for the murder victims over everyone else.

[Noble_Platypus]

The 123 innocent people who have been released from death row since 1973 disagree.

123 out of how many hundreds of thousands? I think that .00001% or whatever it works out to doesnt jusity the gazillions of dolars we spend letting the guilty live out their lives on "death" row.

[Toddzilla]

I'm willing to allow those 173 people to die to eliminate the thousands who deserved to die. Justice for the murder victims over everyone else.That is one of the most disturbing opinions I've ever read on this board. Just...wow.

[Joe]

123 out of how many hundreds of thousands? I think that .00001% or whatever it works out to doesnt jusity the gazillions of dolars we spend letting the guilty live out their lives on "death" row.

As of July 1, 2006, there were 3,366 prisoners awaiting execution in the United States.

[WVUFAN]

123 out of how many hundreds of thousands? I think that .00001% or whatever it works out to doesnt jusity the gazillions of dolars we spend letting the guilty live out their lives on "death" row.

Gotta be fair here ... there's been 1027 people executed since 1976. No where near the amount you're thinking of.

My point stands, but I wanted to set the record straight on the number of executed.

[kingfc22]

And he's dead. reportedly

[Easy Mac]

123 of 4,299 either on death row or executed, or about 2.9%... 1 in 34... not quite the small number you suppose

[MJ4H]

does this count towards the famous people die in 3s rule?

[Easy Mac]

And he's dead. reportedly

And I just finished episode 4 of season 2 of sleeper cell... eery.

[WVUFAN]

That is one of the most disturbing opinions I've ever read on this board. Just...wow.

Fair enough. I feel the same about those unwilling to allow the guilty to die over fear of getting someone innocent. That's what I find disturbing.

Just differing viewpoints, I guess

[kingfc22]

does this count towards the famous people die in 3s rule?

I'm gonna go with yes.

Very eeary how this rule always work.

[Greyroofoo]

Instead of the death penalty, we should just take our most serious criminals and drop them off on some island in the pacific, set up cameras, and have the government make up its expenses as the most the successful reality show ever made airs.

[kingfc22]

Instead of the death penalty, we should just take our most serious criminals and drop them off on some island in the pacific, set up cameras, and have the government make up its expenses as the most the successful reality show ever made airs.

We can test our nuclear bombs there.

[PSUColonel]

HE's DEAD!!!!! HOOORAY!!!!!

[PSUColonel]

bye bye Saddam

[WVUFAN]

Instead of the death penalty, we should just take our most serious criminals and drop them off on some island in the pacific, set up cameras, and have the government make up its expenses as the most the successful reality show ever made airs.

I'm for that. I'd be like the movie Battle Royale -- the one who survives get's a lifetime in jail instead of death.

[MJ4H]

I wonder what it will be like when they do this to osama.

[RedKingGold]

Sorry, eye for an eye is never acceptable and every life ever born in this world has meaning.

Just my 2 cents.

(ducks and cover)

[Rizon]

Sorry, eye for an eye is never acceptable and every life ever born in this world has meaning.

Just my 2 cents.

Hey, somebodies gotta be fodder.

[illinifan999]

I'm willing to allow those 173 people to die to eliminate the thousands who deserved to die. Justice for the murder victims over everyone else.

Where is the justice for those that were innocent and executed?

[stevew]

I'm for that. I'd be like the movie Battle Royale -- the one who survives get's a lifetime in jail instead of death.

How about a Surviving the Game type scenerio. We can let people go out in the woods, and Charles S Dutton, Rutger Hauer, and Oscar Winner F. Murray Abraham will hunt them with rifles

[WVUFAN]

Where is the justice for those that were innocent and executed?

Some company said that since 1973, 16 people have been executed but were innocent, but only 5 were actually ruled by the courts as being so.

So ... out of the 1000+ people executed, we got it wrong 5 times. That's acceptable.

[st.cronin]

How about a Surviving the Game type scenerio. We can let people go out in the woods, and Charles S Dutton, Rutger Hauer, and Oscar Winner F. Murray Abraham will hunt them with rifles

A better idea would be to set some wild animals loose - lions, giant apes, crocodiles, that sort of thing.

[stevew]

A better idea would be to set some wild animals loose - lions, giant apes, crocodiles, that sort of thing.

Yeah, but then it wouldn't be able to be shown on TNT late at night.

[PSUColonel]

Sorry, eye for an eye is never acceptable and every life ever born in this world has meaning.

Just my 2 cents.

(ducks and cover)

agreed. I am in a very unique position to talk about this a bit. I at one time in my life was against the death penalty. I actually witnessed a lethal injection in Delaware in 2001.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/hameen715.htm

I shortly after that spoke and interviewed Sister Helen Prejean (from the movie Dead Man Walking) about what I had seen, and what she has seen. I was firmly convinced killing in any form was wrong at that time. Then 9/11 happened.

http://www.prejean.org/

I went to ground zero the day after, and saw much of the aftermath. It was the smell of burning jet fuel and rotting flesh that remains my most vivid memory of that day. Anyway, after seeing how evil my supposed "fellow human beings" can be, I decided the death penalty is a needed deterrent against crimes such as this.

[Joe]

Some company said that since 1973, 16 people have been executed but were innocent, but only 5 were actually ruled by the courts as being so.

So ... out of the 1000+ people executed, we got it wrong 5 times. That's acceptable.

I disagree

[Easy Mac]

agreed. I am in a very unique position to talk about this a bit. I at one time in my life was against the death penalty. I actually witnessed a lethal injection in Delaware in 2001.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/hameen715.htm

I shortly after that spoke and interviewed Sister Helen Prejean (from the movie Dead Man Walking) about what I had seen, and what she has seen. I was firmly convinced killing in any form was wrong at that time. Then 9/11 happened.

http://www.prejean.org/

I went to ground zero the day after, and saw much of the aftermath. It was the smell of burning jet fuel and rotting flesh that remains my most vivid memory of that day. Anyway, after seeing how evil my supposed "fellow human beings" can be, I decided the death penalty is a needed deterrent against crimes such as this.

The death penalty would have been an obvious deterrent to the hijackers of 9/11

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Anyway, after seeing how evil my supposed "fellow human beings" can be, I decided the death penalty is a needed deterrent against crimes such as this.

Yeah, that death penalty sure is a good deterrent against those suicide bombers.

[PSUColonel]

No, it wouldn't since they killed themselves, but seeing the act somehow changed my view on the death penalty. It's difficult to explain.

[Toddzilla]

Fair enough. I feel the same about those unwilling to allow the guilty to die over fear of getting someone innocent. That's what I find disturbing.

Just differing viewpoints, I guessI never said the guilty shouldn't die...jeez, I may get by "Bleeding-Heart Liberal" card revoked for that...I fully believe if someone is guilty, and convicted, and exhausted their appeals - or in other cases they admit guilt - then the executions should be swift.

But mistakes are made - lots of them. That (123 or 173) number of death-row inmates being released on appeal illuminates the need for being thorough over being quick.

[WVUFAN]

The death penalty would have been an obvious deterrent to the hijackers of 9/11

Pour pig's blood on them, then threaten to immediately kill them.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Some company said that since 1973, 16 people have been executed but were innocent, but only 5 were actually ruled by the courts as being so.

So ... out of the 1000+ people executed, we got it wrong 5 times. That's acceptable.

Just curious: Would you still feel this way if you had a loved one sitting on Death Row that you knew was innocent?

[Toddzilla]

Just curious: Would you still feel this way if you had a loved one sitting on Death Row that you knew was innocent?Ugh - that's a loaded question if I've ever heard one.

[Raiders Army]

The 123 innocent people who have been released from death row since 1973 disagree.

#1, were those people declared innocent or were they declared not guilty to be released from death row?

#2, I doubt that they're truly innocent and haven't committed any crime whatsoever to warrant the death sentence, even if they're innocent of the crime that they're on death row for.

#3, as it was said above no system is perfect and a few eggs have to be broken to make an omlette.

[King of New York]

From a purely practical point of view, I don't think that the execution of Saddam is gonna make the US look anything but vindictive. Compared to the trials of folks like Hoess and Goering after WW II, this trial was a circus.

[WVUFAN]

I never said the guilty shouldn't die...jeez, I may get by "Bleeding-Heart Liberal" card revoked for that...I fully believe if someone is guilty, and convicted, and exhausted their appeals - or in other cases they admit guilt - then the executions should be swift.

But mistakes are made - lots of them. That (123 or 173) number of death-row inmates being released on appeal illuminates the need for being thorough over being quick.

I didn't accuse you of that, but there is not anyway to be absolutely sure of the guilty of any single person. Period. So, appeals or no, you run the chance to killing an innocent person when you execute. A long appeal generally doesn't work .. it just expands the cost involved in keeping the prisoner in jail.

[RedKingGold]

No, it wouldn't since they killed themselves, but seeing the act somehow changed my view on the death penalty. It's difficult to explain.

I think your viewpoint is well-spoken, however, it also exemplifies why I believe what I do. My view against the death penalty (or any form of the premeditated taking of human life) is that we, as human beings, are simply unable to fairly judge the value of a life. You have let several events in your life directly impact your judgment on whether or not death is a proper punishment for a person. This is not a negative as to have these feelings is perfectly human. If you were not to feel outraged against 9/11, then it could be argued that you are not a human being yourself.

It is a tangled predicament we put ourselves in. The only way we can properly judge a life is to seperate ourselves from all things that make us human. It is because we are unable to to this, that I am against any form of premeditated taking of a life.

[King of New York]

Also, isn't it somewhat odd that the president has not released a statement about such an important event?

[Raiders Army]

Just curious: Would you still feel this way if you had a loved one sitting on Death Row that you knew was innocent?

My loved ones don't sit on death row. None of them have ever seen the inside of a jail. I would be willing to bet that most of the people on death row have seen the inside of a jail more than once.

[Easy Mac]

My loved ones don't sit on death row. None of them have ever seen the inside of a jail. I would be willing to bet that most of the people on death row have seen the inside of a jail more than once.

64.4% had a prior felony conviction at the time of the murder.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/images/DOT.GIF 08.2% had a prior homicide conviction at the time of the murder.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/images/DOT.GIF 07.9% had criminal charges pending at the time of the murder.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/images/DOT.GIF 26.7% were on probation or parole at the time of the murder.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/images/DOT.GIF 4.9% were incarcerated or had escaped from incarceration.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/images/DOT.GIF 14% had accumulated more than one death sentence.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/images/DOT.GIF 22% were married, 21% divorced, and 03% widowed.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/images/DOT.GIF 39% were high school/GED graduates.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/images/DOT.GIF 40% were under the age of 25 at arrest; 2.9% are under 25 now.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/images/DOT.GIF 0.2% were 60+ years at arrest; 3.8% are 60+ years now.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/images/DOT.GIF The average age was 40 years. (27 at sentencing)

[Toddzilla]

From a purely practical point of view, I don't think that the execution of Saddam is gonna make the US look anything but vindictive. Compared to the trials of folks like Hoess and Goering after WW II, this trial was a circus.The U.S. isn't the one that put Hussein on trial - it was an "international tribunal" for war crimes. We just captured him.

Also, isn't it somewhat odd that the president has not released a statement about such an important event?Yeah, kinda fishy - especially considering the history between Hussein and the President's daddy.

[st.cronin]

From a purely practical point of view, I don't think that the execution of Saddam is gonna make the US look anything but vindictive. Compared to the trials of folks like Hoess and Goering after WW II, this trial was a circus.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "circus" but this trial was much, much "fairer" than the Nuremberg trials.

[Joe]

#1, were those people declared innocent or were they declared not guilty to be released from death row?

#2, I doubt that they're truly innocent and haven't committed any crime whatsoever to warrant the death sentence, even if they're innocent of the crime that they're on death row for.

#3, as it was said above no system is perfect and a few eggs have to be broken to make an omlette.

The people I previously referenced either

1) had their conviction overturned and were acquitted at re-trial or had all charges dropped.

or

2) were given an absolute pardon by the Governor based on new evidence

[JPhillips]

Nice to see the Culture of Life in full swing here.

[PSUColonel]

It isn't a matter of simply deciding to allow a lengthy appeal system, it simply turns out that way when someone exhausts every option to avoid execution. Those options ar guaranteed to any individual under the terms of our constitution. Here is a case I covered beginning ten years ago, ending with Capano's sentence of death essentially being commuted.

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060303/NEWS/603030339&theme=CAPANO


The author of the article was a friend of mine while I was working in Wilmington.

[Senator]

What happened? Did somebody die?

[PSUColonel]

I think your viewpoint is well-spoken, however, it also exemplifies why I believe what I do. My view against the death penalty (or any form of the premeditated taking of human life) is that we, as human beings, are simply unable to fairly judge the value of a life. You have let several events in your life directly impact your judgment on whether or not death is a proper punishment for a person. This is not a negative as to have these feelings is perfectly human. If you were not to feel outraged against 9/11, then it could be argued that you are not a human being yourself.

It is a tangled predicament we put ourselves in. The only way we can properly judge a life is to seperate ourselves from all things that make us human. It is because we are unable to to this, that I am against any form of premeditated taking of a life.


I can relate to you, since I as I said, I at one time was also very much opposed to the death penalty.

[Easy Mac]

Gerald Ford was killed by the corpse of Richard Nixon... oh, and Tom Brokaw is gay.

[kcchief19]

Some company said that since 1973, 16 people have been executed but were innocent, but only 5 were actually ruled by the courts as being so.

So ... out of the 1000+ people executed, we got it wrong 5 times. That's acceptable.
A citation on such a claim would be nice.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnists/wickham/wick059.htm
This article states that for every seven people executed since the death penalty was reinstated, one person has been freed from prison or had their sentence reduced after being on death row.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States#Controversy_over_use_of_death_penalty
67 percent of capital punishment convictions are overturned mainly due to poor legal representation, prosecutorial misconduct or incorrect instructions to juries.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=110
Since 1973, 123 people who were sentenced to death later were exonerated by acquittal in a new trial, having charges dropped or having charges dismissed. In 14 of those cases DNA evidenced provide their innocence.

Does it happen frequently? No. But to me, a thousand people killed for "good reason" isn't justication for killing one person for no reason. Personally, I think death is too good for murders. Why let them off the hook when you can let them rot in a hole? If you want to argue that death row inmates should simply be in a small cell, never leave and get not TV or recreation, I'm on board.

I understand the reason why people want the death penalty, but I just don't get it. My record on religion is mixed, but my Catholic upbringing was strong enough to instill in me the belief that killing is wrong. Then again, we look down our nose at Islam and China in this country, yet this is one of the few issues we seem to see eye-to-eye with them on while the rest of the world thinks we're nuts. This issue makes interesting bedfellows.

I will offer one olive branch -- I might be willing to support the death penalty if we made it a capital crime to wrongly prosecute and sentence someone to death. If you are a judge or prosecutor and want to pursue the death penalty, fine. But if someone you execute is later proven innocent, you get to follow them to the gallows. Honestly, I think that's an absurd idea, but so is the idea of someone pursuing the death penalty in a case so they can climb the political ladder.

That said, I really wish a debate about the death penalty wasn't tied up with Hussein. His crimes aren't on a comparable scale. He took part in genocide, which is a mass murder on a scale so immense that it dwarfs any comparisons to a single act. I'll be honest in saying I'm indifferent about Saddam being executed. I don't have a problem with it -- so long as more people don't die to an upsurge in violence caused by his so-called martyrdom.

[sachmo71]

I almost felt bad about this, but then I watched the South Park movie again and realized he's living it up in h-e-double hockey sticks.

[SirFozzie]

and.. it's over.

[WVUFAN]

A citation on such a claim would be nice.

http://www.truthinjustice.org/prob-innocent.htm -- mind you I said innocent after execution.


Does it happen frequently? No. But to me, a thousand people killed for "good reason" isn't justication for killing one person for no reason.

That's the point where we differ. The good of the whole is more important than that of the few. If we execute 1000 guilty and get 1 innocent, than that is acceptable to me.


Personally, I think death is too good for murders. Why let them off the hook when you can let them rot in a hole? If you want to argue that death row inmates should simply be in a small cell, never leave and get not TV or recreation, I'm on board.

Because I and other citizens would have to pay for it, and they're not worth it.


I will offer one olive branch -- I might be willing to support the death penalty if we made it a capital crime to wrongly prosecute and sentence someone to death. If you are a judge or prosecutor and want to pursue the death penalty, fine. But if someone you execute is later proven innocent, you get to follow them to the gallows. Honestly, I think that's an absurd idea, but so is the idea of someone pursuing the death penalty in a case so they can climb the political ladder.

To be fair, you would put the jury to death as well, as they are actually the ones to convict them. Good luck finding a jury in that case.

[Glengoyne]

The U.S. isn't the one that put Hussein on trial - it was an "international tribunal" for war crimes. We just captured him.

....

I don't think it was an international tribunal. I think this was entirely an Iraqi affair.
That said, I think the reason for that was that the UN, the World Court, and pretty much all other War Crimes or International venues declined jurisdiction on the Saddam case. There wasn't much choice left for the Iraquis.



I'm not sure what you mean by a "circus" but this trial was much, much "fairer" than the Nuremberg trials.

I'll second this. I don't think this trial was a hugely unfair affair. The evidence, what I know of it, seems pretty open and shut. It seems to me that they held a trial, he had attorneys to defend him. He was convicted. I'm not sure how much of a case can be made for him getting rushed to justiced or ramroaded through the system.

[biological warrior]

Ok, Now that Iraq's Center of Gravity has fallen, what next? I mean, as far as The Principles of War are concerned (Clauswitzian), both CoG's falling means we have won, right?

[rowech]

Gerald Ford was killed by the corpse of Richard Nixon... oh, and Tom Brokaw is gay.

I'm so glad someone else knows this skit. I've been thinking about it all week.

[illinifan999]

The good of the whole is more important than that of the few. If we execute 1000 guilty and get 1 innocent, than that is acceptable to me.



So you are or you aren't against murder? You seem to throw up 2 conflicting viewpoints. Murder is wrong, but executing (murdering) an innocent person is ok?

[Raiders Army]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=110
Since 1973, 123 people who were sentenced to death later were exonerated by acquittal in a new trial, having charges dropped or having charges dismissed. In 14 of those cases DNA evidenced provide their innocence.

Does it happen frequently? No. But to me, a thousand people killed for "good reason" isn't justication for killing one person for no reason.

Going down the list right now of the 123. On a quick glance I notice that that number is slightly skewed. Some of those 123 are still in jail on other charges, so even if they were killed and there was an "oops" it wouldn't be a big deal. Remember Al Capone was arrested on tax evasion charges.

Anyhow, I fully admit that in some cases it's blatantly obvious that the person should be released from death row. See Delbert Tibbs:

Tibbs was sentenced to death for the rape of a sixteen-year-old white girl and the murder of her companion. Tibbs, a black theological student, was convicted by an all-white jury on the testimony of the female victim whose testimony was uncorroborated and inconsistent with her first description of her assailant. The conviction was overturned by the Florida Supreme Court because the verdict was not supported by the weight of the evidence, and the state decided not to retry the case. Tibbs' former prosecutor said that the original investigation had been tainted from the beginning and that if there was a retrial, he would appear as a witness for Tibbs. (Tibbs v. State, 337 So.2d 788 (Fla. 1976)).

However, for every Delbert Tibbs there seems to be a James Creamer:

Creamer was sentenced to death for a murder allegedly committed with six other individuals who were sentenced to life. (Cobb Superior Court, Cobb County, Georgia, Certified record) After an investigation by the Atlanta Constitution, a federal judge declared that the prosecution had withheld and destroyed evidence, a witness admitted she had lied in court, and another man confessed to the crimes (Emmett v. Ricketts, 397 F. Supp 1025 (N.D. Ga. 1975)). The convictions against all seven men were overturned, and charges were later dropped. An appellate judge in a related case stated that all seven individuals in this case were sentenced to life. The Clerk of the Cobb Superior Court has certified that Creamer alone was originally sentenced to death. Creamer was resentenced to life in prison in September 1973.

My point is that it isn't like 123 individuals on Death Row are all saints in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[RedKingGold]

That's the point where we differ. The good of the whole is more important than that of the few. If we execute 1000 guilty and get 1 innocent, than that is acceptable to me.

Who are you and how can you yourself determine what is good for the whole? Who is the whole?


Because I and other citizens would have to pay for it, and they're not worth it.

Fickle sentiments of the mindless masses. You are grouping together an entire group of people without care or concern of their individual stories or tribulations. Why don't we just have a mass execution? Isn't that exactly what Saddam did?

To be fair, you would put the jury to death as well, as they are actually the ones to convict them. Good luck finding a jury in that case.

More mass murder. Looks like the death penalty for you! ;)

[PSUColonel]

Pour pig's blood on them, then threaten to immediately kill them.

stack them naked in pyramids while showing them homosexual porn videos and playing the village people for eternity. Then make them watch as prison guards take a steaming shit on the koran ;)

[RedKingGold]

Is this where someone says, "In before the lock"?

[WVUFAN]

So you are or you aren't against murder? You seem to throw up 2 conflicting viewpoints. Murder is wrong, but executing (murdering) an innocent person is ok?

I consider "murder" to be more in line with definition listed here:

"special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (ie, First Degree Murder, which is the only crime punishable by death in most states)"

Not what you're saying, ie the taking of a life. We have two completely different definitions of the word. So an execution by the government after a legal trial is NOT murder, in my opinion.

[Easy Mac]

so just to make sure, it is considered hanged, correect, not hung.

[Joe]

I consider "murder" to be more in line with definition listed here:

"special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (ie, First Degree Murder, which is the only crime punishable by death in most states)"

Not what you're saying, ie the taking of a life. We have two completely different definitions of the word. So an execution by the government after a legal trial is NOT murder, in my opinion.

My dictionary says murder is the unlawful killing of one human by another, so death by the means discussed in this thread wouldn't apply.

[RedKingGold]

I consider "murder" to be more in line with definition listed here:

"special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (ie, First Degree Murder, which is the only crime punishable by death in most states)"

Not what you're saying, ie the taking of a life. We have two completely different definitions of the word. So an execution by the government after a legal trial is NOT murder, in my opinion.

Um. Read the definition you provided a little more closely. Malice aforethought basically means "guilty mind", so that you must have an intent to commit murder. Further, in the definition you provided, notice the bolded words. Execution is a premeditated murder, and you can use any information you want to debate its use. However, it does not change the fact that an execution is a premeditated action with the intent of taking a life.

[Senator]

Way to ruin a good party thread, you geeks.

[King of New York]

I don't think it was an international tribunal. I think this was entirely an Iraqi affair.
That said, I think the reason for that was that the UN, the World Court, and pretty much all other War Crimes or International venues declined jurisdiction on the Saddam case. There wasn't much choice left for the Iraquis.

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm getting at. Yes, Saddam Hussein was guilty of crimes against humanity--no argument there. But he wasn't tried in the Hague by impartial, third-party judges. He was tried by a court held in a country under foreign military occupation, where the desire of the occupiers for a conviction and execution was no secret. And that does not make the US look good.

Plus, with the Shi'ites literally dancing around his corpse, the execution is gonna look like more Shi'ite-Sunni retribution, rather than an act of justice.

[WVUFAN]

Um. Read the definition you provided a little more closely. Malice aforethought basically means "guilty mind", so that you must have an intent to commit murder. Further, in the definition you provided, notice the bolded words. Execution is a premeditated murder, and you can use any information you want to debate its use. However, it does not change the fact that an execution is a premeditated action with the intent of taking a life.

You're bolding the wrong part:

"occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (ie, First Degree Murder, which is the only crime punishable by death in most states)"

But Joe had a much more concise definition earlier:


My dictionary says murder is the unlawful killing of one human by another ...

Government execution is not unlawful.

[RedKingGold]

Way to ruin a good party thread, you geeks.

Nipples.

[RedKingGold]

You're bolding the wrong part:

"occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (ie, First Degree Murder, which is the only crime punishable by death in most states)"

Your right. Here's the full quote again with the proper bolds:

"special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (ie, First Degree Murder, which is the only crime punishable by death in most states)"

Which means, that a murder is taking of life during another crime OR premeditation. Common sense here. Premeditation and commission of a serious life are not mutally exclusive.

Government execution is not unlawful.

At one point, depriving a person of their human rights simply because they were black was also not unlawful. Also at one point, consumption of liquor was unlawful. The point? Just because something is not unlawful does not mean it is or will always be considered that way.

[WVUFAN]

At one point, depriving a person of their human rights simply because they were black was also not unlawful. Also at one point, consumption of liquor was unlawful. The point? Just because something is not unlawful does not mean it is or will always be considered that way.

Your initial question was how I could say I'm against murder and believe in "murder" by the government, and I've answered that. You can argue the legalities of capital punishment all you want, but to me, there's a very clear distinction between murder and execution. At least to me (and you were asking my opinion on this) there's a huge difference between the two.

If the Supreme Court suddenly reversed themselves and declared capital punishment illegal, and then the government executed someone it would be murder. Until then, it IS legal and it is NOT murder. At least not in my opinion.

[RedKingGold]

You can argue the legalities of capital punishment all you want, but to me, there's a very clear distinction between murder and execution. At least to me (and you were asking my opinion on this) there's a huge difference between the two.

You've never really nor quite clearly explained this "huge difference". Please re-explain it so I can understand it.

If the Supreme Court suddenly reversed themselves and declared capital punishment illegal, and then the government executed someone it would be murder. Until then, it IS legal and it is NOT murder. At least not in my opinion.

Keep in mind that the Supreme Court has already once ruled that the death penalty was illegal about thirty years ago. Since Gregg v. Georgia, the pendulum has quietly been swaying back against the death penalty, based on decisions about mentally retarded defendants and a minimum age at the time of the crime (meaning if you are 17-year old serial killer who kills thirty people, you will not be able to receive the death penalty).

[headtrauma]

If being funny were a crime, I'd give this guy the chair:

hxxp://www.glumbert.com/media/badrobber

[Joe]

I found this interesting:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/ExonsByRegion.gif

[Joe]

LOL on the bottom of the fox news screen:

"BREAKING NEWS: Pres. Bush was asleep when Saddam was executed."

[cartman]

Also, isn't it somewhat odd that the president has not released a statement about such an important event?

I think they forgot to tell him it was ok to come out of the tornado shelter in Crawford.

[WVUFAN]

You've never really nor quite clearly explained this "huge difference". Please re-explain it so I can understand it.

Ok. To me, there's a difference between a man killing someone during a robbery and trying that same man, having him found convicted by a jury of his peers, and then lawfully executed for his crimes. One is murder, a crime against society, the other is the punishment for that crime.


Keep in mind that the Supreme Court has already once ruled that the death penalty was illegal about thirty years ago. Since Gregg v. Georgia, the pendulum has quietly been swaying back against the death penalty, based on decisions about mentally retarded defendants and a minimum age at the time of the crime (meaning if you are 17-year old serial killer who kills thirty people, you will not be able to receive the death penalty).
Again, when or if the Supreme Court makes that decision, and an execution by the state is mandated to be illegal, then if a government executes someone it's murder. Regardless of the sway of the capital punishment pendulum, it's not swung all the way to the left just yet.

[Greyroofoo]

Some people might say that 'lawfully executed' is an oxymoron.

Not me though, Saddam didn't get nearly what he desereved.

[miami_fan]

Saddam is dead. YEAH!

However I don't see this event making a big difference in the current situation in Iraq.

[ISiddiqui]

If anyone goes to CNN.com, they'll find a video showing Muslims in Dearborn, Michigan dancing in the streets to this news. I'm not holding my breath that it's going to be much on the news, but perhaps we can hand them out to that crazy Congressman in Virginia and all the others that think Muslims in this country are out to get the US.

[mauchow]

Releasing shortly CNN is sayin...

[Hammer755]

I found this interesting:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/ExonsByRegion.gif

Considering that the South performs > 80% of the nation's executions (source (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=8&did=186) - same as yours), I assume that what you find interesting is that they only have roughly 55% of its exonerations.

[Rizon]

This thread is missing only a debate on gays and abortion to complete the full Internet Debate Cliche.

[Easy Mac]

This thread is missing only a debate on gays and abortion to complete the full Internet Debate Cliche.

sodomy=murder, so gay's should be hanged in the womb, so that it will be a miscarriage and end all abortion.

Does that work?

[duckman]

This thread gets two thumbs down.

http://ldopa.net/wp-content/uploads/ThumbsDown.JPG
http://ldopa.net/wp-content/uploads/ThumbsDown.JPG

[M GO BLUE!!!]

This thread is missing only a debate on gays and abortion to complete the full Internet Debate Cliche.

I worked with a gay guy who used to brag that he was hung.

[EagleFan]

most Iraquis don't give a shit about Saddam right now, more about where their slice of the pie is coming from.

Ah yes, I guess the throngs of people in Iraq that were celebrating the decision don't give a crap about it. :rolleyes:

[Dutch]

Wow, bombs everywhere have united and are very pissed about this whole thing. A suicide bomb killed folks just after the execution.

Bomb kills 15 in Iraqi fish market
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061230/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_bomb
1 hour, 14 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A bomb planted aboard a minibus exploded in a fish market south of Baghdad on Saturday, killing 15 people, a hospital official said.

The explosion occurred in Kufa, 100 miles south of the Iraqi capital.

The 15 dead included three women and four children, said Haidr Nahi, service director of the al-Furat al-Awssat Hospital. Some 25 others were wounded, he said.

[Toddzilla]

Ping: Godwin

[AlexB]

Ah yes, I guess the throngs of people in Iraq that were celebrating the decision don't give a crap about it. :rolleyes:

Do you understand the difference between 'many' and 'most'?

[stevew]

In the words of the esteemed Busta Rhymes, "nod ya head, and break yo neck."

[sachmo71]

Wow, bombs everywhere have united and are very pissed about this whole thing. A suicide bomb killed folks just after the execution.

Bomb kills 15 in Iraqi fish market
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061230/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_bomb
1 hour, 14 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A bomb planted aboard a minibus exploded in a fish market south of Baghdad on Saturday, killing 15 people, a hospital official said.

The explosion occurred in Kufa, 100 miles south of the Iraqi capital.

The 15 dead included three women and four children, said Haidr Nahi, service director of the al-Furat al-Awssat Hospital. Some 25 others were wounded, he said.

I don't see the direct correlation of this bombing to the execution of Saddam, nor any evidence that 'bombs everywhere have united'. Are you saying that all of the factions fighting in Iraq are going to unite now because of this?

If so, I disagree.

[EagleFan]

Do you understand the difference between 'many' and 'most'?

Funny, I was just going to ask you the same question....

[st.cronin]

Isn't a thread about Saddam immune to Godwin's Law, under the premise that Saddam : Hitler :: 1945 :2006 ?

[flere-imsaho]

More reading for Raiders Army: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/

[Raiders Army]

More reading for Raiders Army: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/

Interesting but why me? The website is decidedly biased of course.

[flere-imsaho]

Interesting but why me? The website is decidedly biased of course.

You because on the previous page you said you had been reading up on wrongful convictions and I thought you might find the Center's work interesting. Basically what they do is give law students some experience by having them research and overturn wrongful convictions. While the motivations of some of the participants may be biased, the work they do is pretty straightforward, and the case studies are very illustrative of the problems with our justice system.

[Dutch]

I don't see the direct correlation of this bombing to the execution of Saddam, nor any evidence that 'bombs everywhere have united'. Are you saying that all of the factions fighting in Iraq are going to unite now because of this?

If so, I disagree.

I liken the headline more closely to "Bullet kills man in Detroit".

[MIJB#19]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm getting at. Yes, Saddam Hussein was guilty of crimes against humanity--no argument there. But he wasn't tried in the Hague by impartial, third-party judges. He was tried by a court held in a country under foreign military occupation, where the desire of the occupiers for a conviction and execution was no secret. And that does not make the US look good.

Plus, with the Shi'ites literally dancing around his corpse, the execution is gonna look like more Shi'ite-Sunni retribution, rather than an act of justice.Well said.

[Oilers9911]

Some company said that since 1973, 16 people have been executed but were innocent, but only 5 were actually ruled by the courts as being so.

So ... out of the 1000+ people executed, we got it wrong 5 times. That's acceptable.

You want to know an acceptable number of innocent people being executed is? None. To me that is acceptable.

[Joe]

Considering that the South performs > 80% of the nation's executions (source (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=8&did=186) - same as yours), I assume that what you find interesting is that they only have roughly 55% of its exonerations.

Yes, that and also that the midwest was so high. And that the Northeast has had more exhonerations than executions.

[Raiders Army]

You because on the previous page you said you had been reading up on wrongful convictions and I thought you might find the Center's work interesting. Basically what they do is give law students some experience by having them research and overturn wrongful convictions. While the motivations of some of the participants may be biased, the work they do is pretty straightforward, and the case studies are very illustrative of the problems with our justice system.

Ah, gotcha. I find a lot of the information there revealing and extremely interesting; however, I still keep in the back of my mind that the justice system is still a good thing overall. I think it would be easy to read about all of the things that have gone wrong with the justice system and disregard the positives...in other words, I think that reading about case after case gives you the thinking that the criminal justice system is irreparably broken.

Regardless, there is a lot of good info on that website. Thanks!

[rexallllsc]

I can't quite put my finger on it, but something has disturbed me about this whole process (sham trial, execution).

[PSUColonel]

I can't quite put my finger on it, but something has disturbed me about this whole process (sham trial, execution).

the trial was more than fair.

[duckman]

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone and another one gone
Another one bites the dust hey
Hey I'm gonna get you too
Another one bites the dust

[k0ruptr]

video on liveleak now.

taken from a cell phone, heh.

[Easy Mac]

video is also on google video.

[DaddyTorgo]

anyone have it DLed? I don't have a good firefox extension for DLing videos off sites like that, and i want to have it for...historical purposes I guess.

[Schmidty]

anyone have it DLed? I don't have a good firefox extension for DLing videos off sites like that, and i want to have it for...historical purposes I guess.

No offense, but that's flopping creepy.

[Tekneek]

the trial was more than fair.

Elaborate on that, if you will. Compare his trial to our own standards of fairness. The articles I have read definitely give me some doubt about the way things went down, but I'd like to read your analysis.

[duckman]

Elaborate on that, if you will. Compare his trial to our own standards of fairness. The articles I have read definitely give me some doubt about the way things went down, but I'd like to read your analysis.

He'll have plenty of time to think about it since he's in the box right now. :D

[flere-imsaho]

Ah, gotcha. I find a lot of the information there revealing and extremely interesting; however, I still keep in the back of my mind that the justice system is still a good thing overall. I think it would be easy to read about all of the things that have gone wrong with the justice system and disregard the positives...in other words, I think that reading about case after case gives you the thinking that the criminal justice system is irreparably broken.

Fair enough. The conclusion I came to (and bear in mind that I worked at Northwestern for a while, and so was pretty familiar with their work) was not necessarily that the justice system was wholly broken, but that enough mistakes are made so as to make the exercise of re-examining some cases (which the Center does) a worthwhile one.

Anyway, it's this kind of thing that's shaped my thinking on the death penalty. I don't have a moral problem with the death penalty, per se. I have no intrinsic problem with putting someone to death who has committed wholly reprehensible actions. However, it seems to me that we have to significant problems with the death penalty these days:

1. The endless appeal cycle that costs millions of dollars and ties up court time.
2. Innocent people are put to death.

It seems to me that the common-sense solution is simply to give these people life without parole sentences. This solves both issues. You don't have endless death row appeals, since they're not on death row (the normal appeals process would still apply, of course), and if it's later found that the conviction was incorrect (DNA evidence, witness recanting testimony, etc...) you at least haven't killed an innocent person.

Regardless, there is a lot of good info on that website. Thanks!

You're welcome. :D

[Dutch]

More than 1,000 West Bank Palestinians mourn Saddam
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061231/wl_mideast_afp/iraqjusticeexecution_061231131023

Some 200 Palestinians demonstrated in protest at Saddam's execution on Saturday in the West Bank town of Bethlehem.

The former Iraqi dictator was one of the most popular Arab leaders among Palestinians, due in large part to his payments of millions of dollars to the families of suicide bombers and anti-Israel fighters, as well as his missile attacks on Israel during the 1991 Gulf War.


Fixed. What a swell guy that good ole Saddam was.

[SFL Cat]

^^^yes, I'm an advocate for putting the perp down at the scene when possible. That way there are is no endless series of appeals, and there is absolute certainty (well as absolute as you can probably get) you've got the right guy. :cool: