R.I.P. Saddam Hussein

[CU Tiger]

(Rest in pain)

Ok I know we already have this thread.
But it has turned into a debate on capital punishment.

I'm not sure how I feel on capital punishment, I was strongly for it, but as I age and see crooked legal systems I am unsure.


So lets keep this on topic.
Saddam is dead, and I am glad.

[Greyroofoo]

You say keep it on topic,

but already you make a statement about capital punishment.

[Rizon]

i just don't believe in capitals at all, and they should always be punished.

[Antmeister]

Capitol Records steal from their artists and I agree that they should be punished.

[Raiders Army]

So lets keep this on topic.
Saddam is dead, and I am glad.

Just curious, but why are you glad? How has his death affected you at all?

[st.cronin]

I met Trent Green.

[Tekneek]

Just curious, but why are you glad? How has his death affected you at all?

Or his life, for that matter.

[Joe]

he was annoying to watch on tv

[Greyroofoo]

Hitler had a better mustache

[Senator]

Welcome to the board CU Tiger.

[Lorena]

Saddam Hussein: Raped In Prison

[Surtt]

Or his life, for that matter.

Well, I have a half dozen friends in the guard over in Iraq right now.

[RendeR]

Death was to good for hussein, and as a veteran of the first gulf war I have more than enough reasons for my position. he should have suffered more instead of being treated as well as he was.

[Tekneek]

Well, I have a half dozen friends in the guard over in Iraq right now.

Were they over there before he was captured?

[Tekneek]

Death was to good for hussein, and as a veteran of the first gulf war I have more than enough reasons for my position. he should have suffered more instead of being treated as well as he was.

Yeah, since we've already been mortgaging our moral integrity as a nation as much as possible when it comes to this whole Iraq thing, we should've really made it an even bigger international incident and turned a relatively minor dictator (in the scheme of world history) into a martyr.

[JediKooter]

About time he was served a dish he served to so many people.

[Dutch]

Yeah, since we've already been mortgaging our moral integrity as a nation as much as possible when it comes to this whole Iraq thing

Compared to whom?

...we should've really made it an even bigger international incident and turned a relatively minor dictator (in the scheme of world history) into a martyr.

It would have been better to wait until he was a relatively major dictator?

[JediKooter]

It would have been better to wait until he was a relatively major dictator?

Well, Hitler and Stalin did set the bar kinda high. ;)

[Tekneek]

Compared to whom?

Dunno...I didn't know I was making a comparison?

It would have been better to wait until he was a relatively major dictator?

When was that going to happen? He had nothing going on and no chance at growth. All around him were enemies and he had virtually no trade happening. Enron had a better chance at recovering than Hussein did at becoming a major dictator.

[RendeR]

Yeah, since we've already been mortgaging our moral integrity as a nation as much as possible when it comes to this whole Iraq thing, we should've really made it an even bigger international incident and turned a relatively minor dictator (in the scheme of world history) into a martyr.


Apparently you missed the reality that while we captured him but the trial and execution were all handled by the iraqi government/system/etc. The US had nothing more to do with him than maintaining his imprisonment during the proceedings.

We didn't kill him, the Iraqi people did. and frankly, I wish they'd been more bloodthirsty about it.

[Tekneek]

Apparently you missed the reality that while we captured him but the trial and execution were all handled by the iraqi government/system/etc. The US had nothing more to do with him than maintaining his imprisonment during the proceedings.

We didn't kill him, the Iraqi people did. and frankly, I wish they'd been more bloodthirsty about it.

I knew that much, but thanks for the update. I simply misunderstood your own bloodthirst for wishing the US government had done something about it for you. Now I know you wish the Iraqi government/people shared the same bloodlust as you. Seems odd that they wouldn't go as far as you would want them too, considering they should have suffered so badly under this man. Even stranger that Americans would have a more primitive urge over this, after the way most people over there and the 'Arab world' are characterized in the media here.

[Dutch]

Dunno...I didn't know I was making a comparison?

Can you? Are we in a moral dilemna compared to the French, for instance? They wanted peace, afterall, not war. Would it be fair to compare our morality to them?

When was that going to happen?

With the USA cutting him down at the knees in 1991 and imposing UN Sanction on him? Never. However, had the UN Sanctions been lifted, we would have had to wait until he made another move. You are aware that there is much evidence that shows he was trying to establish weapons systems to make moves once UN Sanctions were lifted, right?

[RendeR]

and you misunderstand entirely the his sentence was not the will of the people, but the will of the government who wanted it done fast and quietly to avoid making him that much more of a martyr. The Iraqi people, I would imagine, would have been as bloodthirsty as you seem to think the American people are. You're comparing our popular feelings to the reserved government, try talking to the Iraqi people dancing in the streets and I think you'll discover they too wished him a much more suffering end.

[Tekneek]

Can you? Are we in a moral dilemna compared to the French, for instance? They wanted peace, afterall, not war. Would it be fair to compare our morality to them?

I suppose. Go ahead.

With the USA cutting him down at the knees in 1991 and imposing UN Sanction on him? Never. However, had the UN Sanctions been lifted, we would have had to wait until he made another move. You are aware that he there is much evidence that shows he was trying to establish weapons systems to make moves once UN Sanctions were lifted, right?

I'm not surprised. Are you? All I said was that getting bloodthirsty and primitive on the man wasn't going to help anything and would only empower our enemies. I didn't say Saddam was an honorable gentleman and a great world leader. Oh, but he was never going to be a major world power. Inspectors were on the ground 72 hours before the invasion started. We could've ruled out WMDs before any of our soldiers were killed. I doubt the sanctions would've been lifted when sufficient evidence was presented, although who knows. Interesting evidence has been presented about actions Israel has been involved in, yet few resolutions have managed to be passed against them.

[SportsDino]

I personally think Saddam deserved to die, and would not have mind an Iraqi version of the Mussolini execution celebration... however, the whole process of the trial and rapid execution just shows we've put some real icky people into power in Iraq. They are a puppet state and entirely corrupt/morally bankrupt, which means they will never hold on against a determined resistance and we will lose lots of American soldiers as a consequence.

Proper trial, proper appeal process (even if expidated) would make a better statement at their intent for justice over legalized sectarian violence.

[Dutch]

I suppose. Go ahead.

Like France ignored Germany's systematic dismissal of the terms of the Versailles Treaty? In the name of peace? In the name of what was popular thing to do? That sort of morality is better? As I have always stated, this was never about war and peace. This was about war and bigger war. Or, dealing with a minor dictator or one who wanted to be a major dictator.

I'm not surprised. Are you? All I said was that getting bloodthirsty and primitive on the man wasn't going to help anything and would only empower our enemies. I didn't say Saddam was an honorable gentleman and a great world leader. Oh, but he was never going to be a major world power. Inspectors were on the ground 72 hours before the invasion started. We could've ruled out WMDs before any of our soldiers were killed. I doubt the sanctions would've been lifted when sufficient evidence was presented, although who knows. Interesting evidence has been presented about actions Israel has been involved in, yet few resolutions have managed to be passed against them.

Exactly, the UN isn't the last bastion of morality afterall and they certainly aren't the deterrent. As for WMD's, when the Generals on the 'battlefield' were issuing chem masks because they were certain chem units near them were ready to unleash chem warfare on incoming US forces, that's a pretty good hint that Saddam fooled a lot of people. He's still fooling people.

[Dutch]

I personally think Saddam deserved to die, and would not have mind an Iraqi version of the Mussolini execution celebration... however, the whole process of the trial and rapid execution just shows we've put some real icky people into power in Iraq. They are a puppet state and entirely corrupt/morally bankrupt, which means they will never hold on against a determined resistance and we will lose lots of American soldiers as a consequence.

Proper trial, proper appeal process (even if expidated) would make a better statement at their intent for justice over legalized sectarian violence.

So if it was up to you, you would have over-ruled the Iraqi's how? By walking in with armed US forces and telling them how to run their country and force them to stop being a puppet of the US? How odd.

[Surtt]

Were they over there before he was captured?

I am not sure what that has to do with anything.

You asked if Saddam Hussein's life affected me.
Yes it has.

As for his death, no it won't and I really do not care other then the world is a better place.
If it was up to me I would give him the Noriega treatment and let him rot in jail the rest of his life. Hanging him gives him more importance then he is worth.

[Tekneek]

Exactly, the UN isn't the last bastion of morality afterall and they certainly aren't the deterrent. As for WMD's, when the Generals on the 'battlefield' were issuing chem masks because they were certain chem units near them were ready to unleash chem warfare on incoming US forces, that's a pretty good hint that Saddam fooled a lot of people. He's still fooling people.

I don't recall saying the UN was a bastion of morality. The morality stuff was actually exclusive of the UN commentary.

They do blow their moral highground when they go around the world talking about WMDs that were never found. They talk up 9/11 links that were never validated. All the crap in Abu Ghraib hurts, too. The rapes and murders of Iraqis by American military reflect quite poorly on America, as well.

On one hand Bush, and you, and all sorts of other people like to label Hussein as a "tinhorn dictator", but now he is also this clever man who fooled the world into thinking he had weapons of mass destruction when he had nothing. He got really crafty, all of a sudden, and the "world's only superpower" couldn't figure it out. Maybe they didn't want to figure it out. I remember Scott Ritter being called a traitor (and worse) yet a lot of his claims have come to be true about the state of Iraq's weapons programs and how well the 'occupation' would go. Suddenly, they wanted to completely discard and discredit a man who only a few years before John McCain had said he "wished that the administration had consulted with somebody of Ritter's pay grade during the Vietnam War."

[Tekneek]

I am not sure what that has to do with anything.

You asked if Saddam Hussein's life affected me.
Yes it has.


My question is important. If he was already captured, then his life doesn't have much to do with them being over there. They got sent over there because the government didn't have a plan to finish what they started. His life was effectively over by the time they got there, as far as it having anything to do with them (unless they were charged with protecting him). They are over there because of what happened after he was removed from power, not because of what happened while he was in power.

[Schmidty]

I wish everyone would just shut the flop up. There, I said it.

[Lorena]

(Rest in pain)

Ok I know we already have this thread.
But it has turned into a debate on capital punishment.

I'm not sure how I feel on capital punishment, I was strongly for it, but as I age and see crooked legal systems I am unsure.


So lets keep this on topic.
Saddam is dead, and I am glad.

http://forums.spybot.info/images/smilies/animated/rofl.gif

On topic... riiiiight! :p

[WVUFAN]

I wish everyone would just shut the flop up. There, I said it.

That's flopping awesome!! :)

[Lorena]

I wish everyone would just shut the flop up. There, I said it.
<!-- / message --> <!-- edit note --> <hr style="color: rgb(209, 209, 225);" size="1"> Last edited by Schmidty : Today at 06:00 PM. Reason: Editing because I am trying cut down on saying "Fuck".
Flipping hilarious!! :D :D

[st.cronin]

wtf

[Greyroofoo]

I wish everyone here would just stop flopping around!!!!!

[cuervo72]

I wish everyone here would just stop flopping around!!!!!

http://us.penguingroup.com/static/packages/us/yreaders/froggy/images/frog.gif

Flop, flop, flop.

[st.cronin]

lmfao

[Greyroofoo]

http://us.penguingroup.com/static/packages/us/yreaders/froggy/images/frog.gif

Flop, flop, flop.

i find that frog dirty flopping hawt!

[duckman]

i find that frog dirty flopping hawt!

I would flop it.

[WVUFAN]

If someone is even a little curious, the video of the execution is already online.

[Greyroofoo]

I would flop it.

I think we need a flop or not poll

[duckman]

If someone is even a little curious, the video of the execution is already online.

Pretty fucking horrific. :(

[WVUFAN]

Pretty fucking horrific. :(

* Shrug * It wasn't that bad.

[duckman]

* Shrug * It wasn't that bad.

Seeing another human being die is pretty damn bad IMHO.

[WVUFAN]

Seeing another human being die is pretty damn bad IMHO.

Depends on the human being.

[Vegas Vic]

Several hours after Saddam Hussein was hanged this morning in Baghdad, the state-run television channel, Iraqia, began to run edited video, without sound, of the run-up to the hanging. The video shows Saddam being guided up the steps to the top of the gallows, a scarf being put around his neck and then the noose placed over his head and tightened on his neck. Then it stops. This footage, about a minute long, was played and replayed over and over during the day, and quickly found its way onto all major television stations around the world.

Later this evening, another video of the hanging popped up, this time being shown on Al-Jazeera and Arabiya, two Arabic TV channels based in the Gulf. The new video was of poor quality, was very jerky, and had clearly been shot on a cell phone or some similar device from below by one of the two dozen witnesses to the event. It also had sound. The picture it gave of Saddam’s last moments was very different from the edited, silent version that the Iraqi government had released earlier.

There are five men in black face masks who are visible on the gallows platform around Saddam, acting as guards. As they guide him towards the trap door and put the noose over his head, they start chanting religious slogans with the names of Moqtada al Sadr (the head of the Mahdi army, accused of organizing death squads against Sunnis) and Baqr al Sadr (the father-in-law of Moqtada). Saddam, a Sunni, is outraged at this last-minute provocation, and tells them to “go to hell.” This is generally where the two TV stations cut the video, but on at least one occasion that we saw, Arabiya allowed the video to keep rolling: The cell phone camera is jerked down to the ground, as if the person holding it had to conceal the camera, then it is slowly raised up to Saddam again, and suddenly his body shoots down through the trapdoor. At this, the Arabiya anchor came on and made a scissors symbol with two fingers with a mischievous grin on his face, as if to say that they really shouldn’t have shown that, but so be it. A cynical voyeuristic ploy, nudge nudge wink wink…

However, the impact of this video could be quite significant. First, it will reinforce Sunni suspicions that the execution of Saddam was merely an act of Shiite revenge for decades of repression under Saddam. The building where the execution took place was expressly chosen because it was once used as a detention center by a division of Saddam’s secret police that was focused on the Shiite Dawa party. Some of the witnesses whom the government invited to the execution had themselves once been tortured in that same building. Indeed, Prime Minister Maliki, who signed the execution order the day before the hanging, is a long-term member of the Dawa party and had himself been sentenced to death by Saddam back in 1980 before fleeing the country.

Worse, it will also reinforce the fears of Sunnis that Maliki’s government is beholden to the Mahdi army, Moqtada’s militia. Executions are generally expected to be solemn affairs –- certainly not opportunities for thugs to score some final sectarian points before the “enemy” is disposed of. The video itself seems quite distasteful –- but it is informative to the extent that it reveals the political baggage that the current government carries on its shoulders. It does not add up to a pretty picture.

Link to story (http://blogs.abcnews.com/bizarrebazaar/2006/12/saddams_hanging.html#comment-27102907)

[CU Tiger]

Just curious, but why are you glad? How has his death affected you at all?

How has his death affected me?

His life cost me 4 family members, 3 in the first gulf war. 1 3 days before his capture in Iraq...

So I am glad to see the worthless piece of shit die and hope he enjoys hell

[Vegas Vic]

I guess we'll see which version of hell is worse in two or three years when al-Sadr is running what's left of the country.

[Tekneek]

Quite an interesting bunch in charge over there. US forces will have to stay there for at least a generation.

[Dutch]

I've never seen footage of Saddam executing anybody, but I bet he talked a little shit every once in a while. So I still don't feel sorry for him.

[Tekneek]

I've never seen footage of Saddam executing anybody, but I bet he talked a little shit every once in a while. So I still don't feel sorry for him.

Don't feel sorry for him, then. You shouldn't anyway. Feel sorry for a lot of the civilians in Iraq who aren't taking up arms for any side in these battles. They stand to lose the most.

[Dutch]

Don't feel sorry for him, then. You shouldn't anyway. Feel sorry for a lot of the civilians in Iraq who aren't taking up arms for any side in these battles. They stand to lose the most.

In your estimation, would they lose more because Iraqi law executed the higheset profile criminal in the country or if the Iraqi government had bowed to Al Qaeda's demand to not carry out the sentence?

[RendeR]

Seeing another human being die is pretty damn bad IMHO.


Its not as bad as you would think, and as was said, it depends entirely on the "human being" being killed.

[duckman]

Its not as bad as you would think, and as was said, it depends entirely on the "human being" being killed.

I better say upfront that I was (and still am) for his execution. There is no doubt that man was a sociopath and a monster. However, it always brings great sadness to me, regardless the individual, to see someone die.

[Dutch]

I better say upfront that I was (and still am) for his execution. There is no doubt that man was a sociopath and a monster. However, it always brings great sadness to me, regardless the individual, to see someone die.

I don't want to see Saddam, or anyone die either. But I do believe that his death is a stepping stone on the way to stability in the region.

[Surtt]

My question is important. If he was already captured, then his life doesn't have much to do with them being over there. They got sent over there because the government didn't have a plan to finish what they started. His life was effectively over by the time they got there, as far as it having anything to do with them (unless they were charged with protecting him). They are over there because of what happened after he was removed from power, not because of what happened while he was in power.

I can see your point, but I disagre.
All of this was set in motion when the decision was made to invade. (while he still was in power).

[Tekneek]

In your estimation, would they lose more because Iraqi law executed the higheset profile criminal in the country or if the Iraqi government had bowed to Al Qaeda's demand to not carry out the sentence?

No. They would've been better off if those carrying out the execution had the sense to keep their mouths shut while they did it.

[Vegas Vic]

Don't feel sorry for him, then. You shouldn't anyway. Feel sorry for a lot of the civilians in Iraq who aren't taking up arms for any side in these battles. They stand to lose the most.

That's an interesting observation. So, if all of the Shiites and Sunnis would take up arms, one side could completely exterminate the other, and they could get this thing over with in five or six years instead of 20 or 30. Of course, the Kurds would still be the wild card, and I'm not too sure how things would shake out for them. Another big question that needs to be answered is how much longer would our troops be deployed as sitting ducks in the crossfire?

[Tekneek]

That's an interesting observation. So, if all of the Shiites and Sunnis would take up arms, one side could completely exterminate the other, and they could get this thing over with in five or six years instead of 20 or 30. Of course, the Kurds would still be the wild card, and I'm not too sure how things would shake out for them. Another big question that needs to be answered is how much longer would our troops be deployed as sitting ducks in the crossfire?

My point was that the real losers are the innocents who aren't interested in spilling anybody's blood over any of this, but are going to be killed anyway. Yelling rhetoric before you execute Saddam will only incite more violence which will surely endanger the lives of more people that don't have anything to do with it.

If the troops are there to keep the peace, I can't see them leaving within a generation. If they do, the void will be filled with a lot of violence and quite possibly collapse into a total civil war with more people dead than Saddam Hussein ever killed.

[Vegas Vic]

If the troops are there to keep the peace, I can't see them leaving within a generation. If they do, the void will be filled with a lot of violence and quite possibly collapse into a total civil war with more people dead than Saddam Hussein ever killed.

And the true shame of it all is that it looks like Dubya won't have a chance to dress up and play soldier again in another photo op.

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/5862/missionaccomplishedyt6.gif

[Dutch]

I wonder if the internets will provide any cool shots like that involving President Hillary? :)