Typical Lebron choke at the buzzer

[amdaily]

Need I say more? The man is as non-clutch as they come. With the Cavs or not, he'll never be on a championship team.

[stevew]

So, I guess scoring the final 6 points in OT doesnt matter? Cavs Win, Cavs Win.

[Danny]

Are you drunk amdaily?

[JPhillips]

Please see last year's playoffs. He killed the Wizards.

[ice4277]

Ping: WrongWay

[kcchief19]

Ping: First seven years of Michael Jordan's career

[Logan]

Yes, he threw Gilbert Arenas out of bounds on a rebound attempt with no call and then *illegally* approached the shooter in the free throw circle and got away with it. Add in 3-4 obvious charges that went uncalled and "he" killed the Wizards.:mad:

I'll count them, but only because they were so obvious.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Need I say more? The man is as non-clutch as they come. With the Cavs or not, he'll never been on a championship team.
How do you feel about Michelle Wie?

[larrymcg421]

I saw this thread last night and seriously thought it was a joke.

[Mateo]

I refuse to call him "king" of anything until he hoists up the golden ashtray

[Butter]

Not a bad road trip for the Cavs, all things considered. LeBron is what, 21? Give the guy some freaking slack. It will come. It may not even come to him in Cleveland, but it will come.

[stevew]

Not a bad road trip for the Cavs, all things considered. LeBron is what, 21? Give the guy some freaking slack. It will come. It may not even come to him in Cleveland, but it will come.

I thought it was a horrid road trip, considering the teams they lost too. Smacked around by portland, nobody should lose to the Sonics either. And Bron had to hulk up to beat Golden State.

[Butter]

Considering their past history on West Coast road trips, it wasn't bad.

I didn't say it was great, did I?

[amdaily]

*yawn*

[stevew]

I'll agree this time. He fucking sucked tonight, and should not have played. And Mike Brown is clueless, if he's going to allow Wade to run the same fucking play 15 times in a row, and not try to stop it. Losses like these, Bron turning into LeBrick from the FT line, piss me off.

[Toddzilla]

Ping: WrongWayLAWL

[stevew]

Man, 2 LeBricks in the final 10 seconds. Ah well, sometimes a loss isn't that painful. Especially if you don't have to watch Larry Hughes play.

[Groundhog]

Oh man, it became a close game? I switched it off midway through the 2nd Q when Dallas was spanking them and Cleveland looked clueless.

It was a pretty good 1st Q though, until that lapse near the end of the quarter. But man, sometimes LeBron gets a little too excited after a big play and then just turns in to a liability with some of the dumb shots he takes the next couple of times down the court. He threw down that monster slam over Diop where he had to adjust the ball and bring it back for the 2-hander, then the next couple of times down the court he throws up an air-ball, a brick, and an pretty ordinairy layup that is cleaned up by Varejo.

[stevew]

Oh man, it became a close game? I switched it off midway through the 2nd Q when Dallas was spanking them and Cleveland looked clueless.

It was a pretty good 1st Q though, until that lapse near the end of the quarter. But man, sometimes LeBron gets a little too excited after a big play and then just turns in to a liability with some of the dumb shots he takes the next couple of times down the court. He threw down that monster slam over Diop where he had to adjust the ball and bring it back for the 2-hander, then the next couple of times down the court he throws up an air-ball, a brick, and an pretty ordinairy layup that is cleaned up by Varejo.

Yeah, it was a pretty exciting game. I shouldn't complain about the bricked threes, since he was the only reason they didn't lose by like 25. Typical Mike Brown puzzling rotations....Snow in when we're down by 7-9. Dude can't finish. Lots of clean look 3s that didn't stay down. A few calls that we kind of got jobbed on towards the end. All in all, I think he's turning the corner. 2 bricked FT's and 2 missed 3's in the final minute. I think that he hit the camera crew pretty damn hard beforehand though.

[Groundhog]

How was Shannon Brown? Looking at the box score it looks like he had his first decent game of the season in limited minutes. I was hoping he'd be a semi-impact player after what looked like a potential steal at our draft position, but it looks like he's some ways off.

[stevew]

How was Shannon Brown? Looking at the box score it looks like he had his first decent game of the season in limited minutes. I was hoping he'd be a semi-impact player after what looked like a potential steal at our draft position, but it looks like he's some ways off.

Eh, He made a decent play when I saw him in there, but I don't know. He needs more run instead of David Wesley, at least. I think he will start getting decent minutes from here out.

[RGunner]

I dont watch Lebron play alot, so i dont know...is he a good 3 point shooter? I think that I would rather have someone other than him shooting a 3 to tie at the end of the game, regardless of whether hes my best player or not, I dont think hes that good of a 3 point shooter

[stevew]

I dont watch Lebron play alot, so i dont know...is he a good 3 point shooter? I think that I would rather have someone other than him shooting a 3 to tie at the end of the game, regardless of whether hes my best player or not, I dont think hes that good of a 3 point shooter
I would rather have someone else shooting a three than him too, but the other guys were bricking them at an alarming rate all night. He's probably an "average" at best 3 point shooter. A quick check indicates that he's about a 33% shooter from 3. Which i believe is about at the range where you either want to get better, or stop shooting them altogether.

[watravaler]

He certainly hasn't improved as a player this season. Hopefully the king spends some time on his game this summer and hasn't peaked too early in his career.

[Groundhog]

He needs a supporting cast more than anything. I think any player would get frustrated if they need to score 50% of the teams points for them to have a chance.

Having said that, the coach deserves plenty of blame too. The Cavs have some guys who should be better scorers than they are, but for a variety of reasons the team's offense stinks more often than not.

[RGunner]

I would rather have someone else shooting a three than him too, but the other guys were bricking them at an alarming rate all night. He's probably an "average" at best 3 point shooter. A quick check indicates that he's about a 33% shooter from 3. Which i believe is about at the range where you either want to get better, or stop shooting them altogether.

thats what I thought, although I heard they had Daniel Gibson in there at that time who is something like a 45%+ 3 point shooter this year....Lebron's dunk in the first quarter was pretty rediculous too, he played a very good game, just has NOBODY on his team to help him, if they get him at least a good point guard and another scorer they would be pretty damn good

[Ragone]

I think if the cavs had pulled the trigger and gotten iverson.. man

[dolfin]

Lebron absolutely needs a better supporting cast. Did you see Wesley get stuffed by the rim!

[Noop]

Man he should have gone to college where he atleast could have felt the pressure of a conference tourney and March Madness.

[TroyF]

33% is solid from three point land. Take 100 shots and you have 99 points. Take 100 two point shots and make 50% and you have 100. Add in the fact that you get more long rebounds off of three and you are fine.

The troubling thing to me about Bron is how all of his numbers are decreasing. His FT percentage is now approaching critical mass. He only hit on 61% last month and has a nice 8-16 start this month. That's a lack of concentration and has nothing to do with his teammates. His rebound, assist, and steal numbers are dropping as well. (and have every year after the second year breakout)

I took a lot of heat a couple of years ago when I ripped him after a Nuggets game. During the closing minutes of that game, there were some bizzare decisions by Lebron. Melo torched a poor Cavs player while Lebron was in the corner D'ing up against a Nugget who wouldn't touch the ball in a clutch situation in 3 million years. Melo demanded to be put on Bron on the other side and was.

Bron got the ball, beat Melo and had a wide open three attempt. He decided to drive instead and ended up kicking it to a covered Vucovic with the game in the balance. I thought that a star player should have been in a more critical role defensively and that there was no excuse for your best player not to take that wide open shot with the game on the line.

I think the guy is an incredible player and I think he can develop the last minute game without a ton of trouble. And I'd much rather have him taking the threes than passing it there, so I think he's got that down better. But I'm not sure why the other numbers are sliding. It's a bit troubling.

[amdaily]

*ahem ahem*

We deserve to lose this game after that play :mad:

[Atocep]

Lebron has played better as of late. I think its obvious his toe injury was affecting him quite a bit. His free throws have recovered and his explosiveness to the basket has returned. The one thing I don't like about his game at this stage is he's always settling for jump shots at the end of games instead of taking the ball to the basket. The guy can get to the basket any time he wants, its like he's trying to be MJ toward the end of his career and win games with 18 foot jumpers.

Something I see with the Cavs is, outside of Lebron, the team has the basketball IQ of a 2nd grader. Lebron ended up shooting a fade away 3 at the end of regulation because Drew Gooden failed to react to the double team Lebron got. He just stood there. Larry Hughes has never been a smart player, he gets by on god given talent. Lebron doesn't need all stars around him, he needs some guys that know how to play basketball. And probably a coach that can actually play to the team's strengths, too.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Yes, he threw Gilbert Arenas out of bounds on a rebound attempt with no call and then *illegally* approached the shooter in the free throw circle and got away with it. Add in 3-4 obvious charges that went uncalled and "he" killed the Wizards.:mad:

Ping: Michael Jordan's entire career :D

[Leonidas]

And while we're at it, what about that Manning guy in Indianapolis. I mean, it took him what, nine, ten years to win a title. The guy is an all-time choker. And don't get me started on Elway. The slacker was nothing without Davis. And what about Julius Erving or Karl Malone. Erving couldn't win a title until he was a pro for over 10 years. The guy sucked. And Malone, most overrated player of all time, never won a title.

I just can't believe the ludicrous criticism Lebron takes. What is he, 21, 22? Jordan was labled a choker for quite a long time before Phil Jackson came along and gave him a winng strategy to work with. I suppose when Greg Oden goes pro he'll be a choker if he doesn't win a title in his first season.

[TroyF]

And while we're at it, what about that Manning guy in Indianapolis. I mean, it took him what, nine, ten years to win a title. The guy is an all-time choker. And don't get me started on Elway. The slacker was nothing without Davis. And what about Julius Erving or Karl Malone. Erving couldn't win a title until he was a pro for over 10 years. The guy sucked. And Malone, most overrated player of all time, never won a title.

I just can't believe the ludicrous criticism Lebron takes. What is he, 21, 22? Jordan was labled a choker for quite a long time before Phil Jackson came along and gave him a winng strategy to work with. I suppose when Greg Oden goes pro he'll be a choker if he doesn't win a title in his first season.


There are some flaws with your post. I agree with the gist of the post. Yes, Bron has plenty of time to win titles, MVP awards and all the rest. He's a 22 year old kid with incredible upside. He's going to go down as one of the top 10 players in the history of the league in all likelihood.

But the flaw is the people criticizing aren't doing it for a title. They are speaking of individual games and how he's playing. When I give the criticism, I'm giving it because I'm seeing some things that concern me. His numbers are down across the board and anyone who is objectively watching has seen a decline in his play this year, teammates aside.

The Lebron James I saw two years ago is a better player than the one out on the floor now. Now understand, what I'm seeing now is an all star. A terrific player. But it's not what I saw two years ago. The guy I saw two years ago got assists because he made great decisions and ran the offense to perfection. He utilized the talent around him (however sparce that was) amazingly well.

The guy I see now is getting assists (and less of them) because he's dominating the ball. he's getting assists in the same way Stephon Marbury or Gilbert Arenas gets assists, not the way he used to get them or a guy like Nash does now.

It's a disturbing trend. I expect he's going to get everything fixed and even if he doesn't, he's still a superstar. But for those who are really studying the game, there is a drop off now. Thet's not a criticism, it's a reality.

[Atocep]

The Lebron James I saw two years ago is a better player than the one out on the floor now. Now understand, what I'm seeing now is an all star. A terrific player. But it's not what I saw two years ago. The guy I saw two years ago got assists because he made great decisions and ran the offense to perfection. He utilized the talent around him (however sparce that was) amazingly well.

The guy I see now is getting assists (and less of them) because he's dominating the ball. he's getting assists in the same way Stephon Marbury or Gilbert Arenas gets assists, not the way he used to get them or a guy like Nash does now.

It's a disturbing trend. I expect he's going to get everything fixed and even if he doesn't, he's still a superstar. But for those who are really studying the game, there is a drop off now. Thet's not a criticism, it's a reality.

Over the past month and a half he's been playing at almost the same level he did last year. He's averaging 30.3 points, around 6 rebounds, and 7 assists per game. His shooting has also gone back to last season's levels, with his free throws actually better.

I think you underestimate the affect his toe injury had on his game, how bad his teammates are at playing basketball, and how bad his coach is at putting Lebron in situations to succeed.

[Leonidas]

There are some flaws with your post. I agree with the gist of the post. Yes, Bron has plenty of time to win titles, MVP awards and all the rest. He's a 22 year old kid with incredible upside. He's going to go down as one of the top 10 players in the history of the league in all likelihood.

But the flaw is the people criticizing aren't doing it for a title. They are speaking of individual games and how he's playing. When I give the criticism, I'm giving it because I'm seeing some things that concern me. His numbers are down across the board and anyone who is objectively watching has seen a decline in his play this year, teammates aside.

The Lebron James I saw two years ago is a better player than the one out on the floor now. Now understand, what I'm seeing now is an all star. A terrific player. But it's not what I saw two years ago. The guy I saw two years ago got assists because he made great decisions and ran the offense to perfection. He utilized the talent around him (however sparce that was) amazingly well.

The guy I see now is getting assists (and less of them) because he's dominating the ball. he's getting assists in the same way Stephon Marbury or Gilbert Arenas gets assists, not the way he used to get them or a guy like Nash does now.

It's a disturbing trend. I expect he's going to get everything fixed and even if he doesn't, he's still a superstar. But for those who are really studying the game, there is a drop off now. Thet's not a criticism, it's a reality.Shall I point out all the people in this thread critiquing Lebron because he hasn't won a title?

amdaily said: "With the Cavs or not, he'll never be on a championship team."

mateo said: " I refuse to call him "king" of anything until he hoists up the golden ashtray", I'm going to assume that's some sort of championship reference

noop said: "Man he should have gone to college where he atleast could have felt the pressure of a conference tourney and March Madness." how many NCAA tourney runs did Kobe Bryant have?

Has he had problems this year? I suppose so. Is the team likely to win more games than last year? Maybe, but they will be pretty close.

Has Lebron won more games in his first three seasons in the NBA than Michael Jordan did. Yes, 127 to 108.

Did Lebron get any rest this summer because of team USA committments? No.

I hope the fans in Cleveland aren't saying this kind of crap. If they are then they don't deserve him.

[BrianD]

Interesting to see the Bron/Jordan comparisons in terms of last-second shots.

"I have missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot, and I missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is precisely why I succeed." -- Michael Jordan

[LionsFan10]

Interesting to see the Bron/Jordan comparisons in terms of last-second shots.

"I have missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot, and I missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is precisely why I succeed." -- Michael Jordan

I like that commercial ...

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/45mMioJ5szc"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/45mMioJ5szc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[Noop]

noop said: "Man he should have gone to college where he atleast could have felt the pressure of a conference tourney and March Madness." how many NCAA tourney runs did Kobe Bryant have?

Okay one I wasn't talking about titles. Two Kobe has one his titles with Shaq and as proven by the Heats recent title I am willing to bet Shaq was the major reason why LA was so dominate. Also name me one high player who has one a NBA championship since the 90's outside of Kobe who had Shaq?

I like LeBron and I happen to think he is a great player but playing in march madness provides unreal pressure. Imagine if the NBA went to a NCAA formula where there was no series just one game either win or lose.

[TroyF]

Over the past month and a half he's been playing at almost the same level he did last year. He's averaging 30.3 points, around 6 rebounds, and 7 assists per game. His shooting has also gone back to last season's levels, with his free throws actually better.

I think you underestimate the affect his toe injury had on his game, how bad his teammates are at playing basketball, and how bad his coach is at putting Lebron in situations to succeed.

I watched the game against the Wizards last night and saw the same player I saw earlier this year. He forced up shots, didn't attack the rim and dominated the ball on offense. The only reason an undermanned Washington was downed was because they couldn't hit FT.

James did take over down the stretch though and showed some of the things that make him such a brilliant basketball player.

The coach is a very good point and one Cleveland needs to address. Still, he's not the guy I saw a couple of years ago right now. Maybe that changes as we get through the rest of the year. I'm ok with being proven wrong.

[TroyF]

Shall I point out all the people in this thread critiquing Lebron because he hasn't won a title?

amdaily said: "With the Cavs or not, he'll never be on a championship team."

mateo said: " I refuse to call him "king" of anything until he hoists up the golden ashtray", I'm going to assume that's some sort of championship reference

noop said: "Man he should have gone to college where he atleast could have felt the pressure of a conference tourney and March Madness." how many NCAA tourney runs did Kobe Bryant have?

Has he had problems this year? I suppose so. Is the team likely to win more games than last year? Maybe, but they will be pretty close.

Has Lebron won more games in his first three seasons in the NBA than Michael Jordan did. Yes, 127 to 108.

Did Lebron get any rest this summer because of team USA committments? No.

I hope the fans in Cleveland aren't saying this kind of crap. If they are then they don't deserve him.

As for the people who mentioned championships, I think they are overexpecting. It's not a reality.

As for the rest. . .


They can only tie the number of wins from last year if they win out. This is in a pretty bad conference with Miami flailing away for most of the year. By anyones assessment, the regular season is a dissapointment.

A lot of guys have come to struggling franchises and won more games than Jordan did their first three years. Carmelo won 136 games in his first three years in a tougher conference and a team that hadn't been to the playofs in a decade. I don't point out the stat to show how great Melo is to Bron. I point out that stat to show that it's essentially meaningless. The turnaround proves he's a great player. We all know that by now. (just as anyone who isn't a moron realizes Melo is a great player) But the flat out win totals are irrelevant. Just because Melo and Bron won more games than Jordan in their first three years does not mean they are going to have a better career. (by the way, both James and Melo will have more wins at the end of their fourth year than Jordan did and will likely finish ahead after year five as well, as Jordan won 47 games his 5th season, a number both the Nuggets and Cavs are likely to eclipse next season)

There were a lot of players who played in the World Championships. This includes the guy who is going to win the MVP this year (Dirk) and a slew of other players who have had great years. (Bosh, Melo, Hinrich, Joe Johnson, Linas Kleiza, Diaw, Ginobili, Obero, and Nocioni to name just a handful) Yes, I'm sure it wore him down a bit, but it wore everyone else down the same.

Besides. . . if you are making excuses for why there is a dropoff, it just affirms there is a dropoff, right? That's an observation and an accurate one. I'm not LBJ bashing because I happen to point it out. You don't need to defend him to the death. It's ok, really. He's a terrific player and I'm sure it's a blip and nothing more. Noticing and pointing out the blip isn't out of line or being over critical. To each his own. . .

[stevew]

In short, basically LeBron would rather hang out at strip clubs with Donyell Marshall, Damon Jones and Larry Hughes til 4am than worry about regular season basketball. There is a deep rooted problem in the cavs roster and coaching staff, basically the players that they have are extremely limited, and their coaching staff does not have control of the team. Perhaps they could put it together and win 16 playoff games and the title this year, but I'm not holding my breath.

[MrBug708]

The coach is a very good point and one Cleveland needs to address. Still, he's not the guy I saw a couple of years ago right now. Maybe that changes as we get through the rest of the year. I'm ok with being proven wrong.

He can have Phil Jackson. As good as the triangle is, the Lakers need to adjust their strategy to the personel that they have.

[TroyF]

I'm not a Cavs fan per say (don't like em, don't hate em), but I'd be willing to bet there are a ton of Cavs fans out there that would love to have him.

[stevew]

Dude, at this point any coach would be an upgrade. I guess I shouldn't be so negative on the team, there have been some guys emerge this year. Daniel Gibson was playing great before he got injured, basically getting anything out of a 2nd round pick is a bonus. Sasha Pavlovic has shown that he's an NBA caliber starter. If the cavs don't resign him this summer, I think that he's the type of guy that could come out of nowhere next year, maybe put up like 16ppg. Anderson Verejao is like my favoritist player in the world, although his minutes and production are inconsistent. I'd much rather see him start over Gooden, but that won't happen. If they cut down on flopping next year, I think it could hurt him. Guy has a knack for getting position, but even i'll admit he's the biggest flopper this side of Vlade Divac and Manu.

Larry Hughes, on the other hand, can kiss my ass. He has a 2 million dollar bonus if they win 49 games this year, and honestly I hope they don't get there. I know it's petty and shit, but he doesn't need anymore pocket change for strippers. I hope to god he's on the first thing smoking out of Cleveland this summer. Too bad Joe Johnson wasn't available to us that summer, cause with him I think they'd be nearly at championship level.

[kingfc22]

CLANK!!!

[Leonidas]

As for the people who mentioned championships, I think they are overexpecting. It's not a reality.

As for the rest. . .


They can only tie the number of wins from last year if they win out. This is in a pretty bad conference with Miami flailing away for most of the year. By anyones assessment, the regular season is a dissapointment.

A lot of guys have come to struggling franchises and won more games than Jordan did their first three years. Carmelo won 136 games in his first three years in a tougher conference and a team that hadn't been to the playofs in a decade. I don't point out the stat to show how great Melo is to Bron. I point out that stat to show that it's essentially meaningless. The turnaround proves he's a great player. We all know that by now. (just as anyone who isn't a moron realizes Melo is a great player) But the flat out win totals are irrelevant. Just because Melo and Bron won more games than Jordan in their first three years does not mean they are going to have a better career. (by the way, both James and Melo will have more wins at the end of their fourth year than Jordan did and will likely finish ahead after year five as well, as Jordan won 47 games his 5th season, a number both the Nuggets and Cavs are likely to eclipse next season)

There were a lot of players who played in the World Championships. This includes the guy who is going to win the MVP this year (Dirk) and a slew of other players who have had great years. (Bosh, Melo, Hinrich, Joe Johnson, Linas Kleiza, Diaw, Ginobili, Obero, and Nocioni to name just a handful) Yes, I'm sure it wore him down a bit, but it wore everyone else down the same.

Besides. . . if you are making excuses for why there is a dropoff, it just affirms there is a dropoff, right? That's an observation and an accurate one. I'm not LBJ bashing because I happen to point it out. You don't need to defend him to the death. It's ok, really. He's a terrific player and I'm sure it's a blip and nothing more. Noticing and pointing out the blip isn't out of line or being over critical. To each his own. . .You are reading way too much into my post. My point is the criticism of Lebron not winning big games at the buzzer, and therefore certain posters labelling him a choker at age 22 is ludicrous. I only posted those numbers up there to demonstrate that at one time the guy considered the greatest clutch player ever was also labelled a choker by his critics at an even more mature age than Lebron. About the only excuse I'm making for Lebron is the fact he has had no real time off in two seasons and he is far and away the youngest guy out of those you mentioned above. I stand by that as a legit problem for him to deal with that few players have had, certainly none as young as him and none who play as many minutes per NBA game as him.

If you want to delve further I think Terry Pluto has some very good questions for coach Mike Brown here: http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/columnists/terry_pluto/17046907.htm

I also think Pluto stands up very well for Lebron when he says the following:
In the past three seasons, James has averaged 42.4, 42.5 and 41.2 minutes. While the 41.2 average this season is the lowest, he still is on the court too much. Since the All-Star break, James is averaging 30.6 points, 6.7 rebounds, 6.4 assists, shooting 49 percent from the field and 73 percent from the foul line. His recent late-game failures should not detract from the fact that he's been brilliant the past two months.

If whatever team you root for were offered Lebron please tell me here and now you would wish them to get somebody else. Short of some guy named Kobe I can't think of another player in the league I'd rather build a team around.

[amdaily]

CLANK!!!

Just got home to post that :D

[TroyF]

Jordan was labeled a choker? Huh? He was labeled as selfish. He was labeled as a guy who shot the ball to much. But choker? No. The guy performed well in the clutch right from the start.

As for who to build around now? Bron at the moment, but that's only assuming this drop off doesn't continue. If it does he becomes one of a group of guys you could easily consider. I watched the game against Detroit today and saw the same things I've seen this year.

As for the minutes per game figure. . . James doesn't play 41 minutes a night. Oh, I know, the stats say he plays 41 minutes a night. But he makes up for it by sleeping on defense 15 to 20 percent of the time. That isn't an insult. He has to do it or he'd be worthless in the final five minutes of every game. He's been doing it from his rookie year, but people have overlooked it, because he's the king. They put him on the opposing teams worst offensive player most of the time for that very reason.

Would a real coach change things? I dunno. James +/- is pretty ridiculous. When he does go off the floor the team really sucks. Just because he's dropped off a bit from the previous two years doesn't mean he's not a great player and he's beyond valuable to that team. I think a new coach would have the idea of resting James more and then use him for 40 minutes anyway.

George Karl talked about using Allen Iverson for less minutes to conserve him. He's still at 42+ a night and Melo is rising up toward the 40 mark. If you take out a game where he got into foul trouble and a blowout, Melo is averaging around 41 in his last 15 games.

I don't think his minutes are going to change. Don't worry about me. I'm just selfish. I want to see the player I saw two years ago. THAT player was the guy you could compare to Mike or Magic. This one isn't quite at that level. I want to see him get back there. Shoot me.

[CleBrownsfan]

Living in Cleveland I've watched 90% of their games. I don't think Bron and the Cavs have any shot to getting back where they were last year. Mike Brown is probably the worst coach in the league. His rotations are a joke!

Also, don't flame this but I truly feel King James has no heart. He does nothing "off the ball" for the team. You never see him give a pick or really dig for a rebound. On D he'll play a very lazy passing lane attempt to steal the ball.

To me Bron is a great player but does not have the X factor a great player has. Here is hoping the Cavs fire Brown afer they get a 5 seed and lose to the Piston in the 2nd round and hopefully get a coach in here Bron respects...

[stevew]

Living in Cleveland I've watched 90% of their games. I don't think Bron and the Cavs have any shot to getting back where they were last year. Mike Brown is probably the worst coach in the league. His rotations are a joke!

Also, don't flame this but I truly feel King James has no heart. He does nothing "off the ball" for the team. You never see him give a pick or really dig for a rebound. On D he'll play a very lazy passing lane attempt to steal the ball.

To me Bron is a great player but does not have the X factor a great player has. Here is hoping the Cavs fire Brown afer they get a 5 seed and lost to the Piston in the 2nd round and hopefully get a coach in here Bron respects...

Pretty much agree with you 100% here.

[Gary Gorski]

I don't get the people so down on LeBron. He's 22 years old and does more with less than anyone else in the league. What other 22 year old player would you possibly want to build a franchise around than LeBron?

Does anyone think that LeBron's "drop-off" maybe have something to do with the fact that he's got a terrible coach and that the front office has surrounded him with a bunch of crap and doesn't do anything to make it better? Jordan was the greatest player ever but he had reliable help - Pippen has been named one of the 50 greatest players ever, he had Ron Harper who was a good defender and could make shots, Paxson and Kerr that could make open threes when teams doubled MJ, had Rodman to rebound and in the prime of his career Horace Grant was a more than serviceable post player.

Look what LeBron has to work with. Larry Hughes is no Scottie Pippen and at $13+ million the biggest steal he has all season is from the Cavs bank account. Drew Gooden? And they resigned him for $23 million over 3 years last summer? Z is ok by the standard of centers in the league and then you've got the flavor of the minute at the other spot (Snow, Pavlovic, Gibson). LeBron hasn't displayed the passing ability that Steve Nash has but LeBron doesn't have Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudamire to pass to either.

The fact that they're in the playoffs period shows what kind of talent LeBron is (and maybe how bad most of the teams in the East are). I think his "drop-off" - which I don't really think is much of one - is because he's tired of being a guy that people expect should be winning championships and matching feats of the greatest player of all time when he's 22 years old and has nothing around him.

[CleBrownsfan]

Does anyone think that LeBron's "drop-off" maybe have something to do with the fact that he's got a terrible coach and that the front office has surrounded him with a bunch of crap and doesn't do anything to make it better?

The Cavs are 3-1 w/out King James. So the talent surrounding him is not that bad. It's Brown f'n up the rotation and his love for Eric Snow.

[lordscarlet]

The Cavs are 3-1 w/out King James. So the talent surrounding him is not that bad. It's Brown f'n up the rotation and his love for Eric Snow.

I don't have an opinion either way, but 4 games is hardly a valid sample size.

[CleBrownsfan]

I don't have an opinion either way, but 4 games is hardly a valid sample size.

My point is that I feel their surronding talent is adequate. They're not playing to their potential...

[stevew]

The Cavs are 3-1 w/out King James. So the talent surrounding him is not that bad. It's Brown f'n up the rotation and his love for Eric Snow.

I kind of have the theory that ESlow has compromising pictures of the coach. Otherwise there is no reason for playing a guy that should see the floor no more than 5 minutes a night. I'd bring snow in for defense at the end of quarters, and possibly for a few minutes here and there if another guy is hot. But nothing like the manlove Brown shows him. Brown finally let Pavs stay in longer than 2 minutes at a time, and the kid's showing he's a player.

[CleBrownsfan]

His number #1 lineup should consist of:

Hughes at the point
Pav
Bron
Varejao
Z

Keep that lineup in there 80% of the time and you win games!

[Crapshoot]

I don't get the people so down on LeBron. He's 22 years old and does more with less than anyone else in the league. What other 22 year old player would you possibly want to build a franchise around than LeBron?

Does anyone think that LeBron's "drop-off" maybe have something to do with the fact that he's got a terrible coach and that the front office has surrounded him with a bunch of crap and doesn't do anything to make it better? Jordan was the greatest player ever but he had reliable help - Pippen has been named one of the 50 greatest players ever, he had Ron Harper who was a good defender and could make shots, Paxson and Kerr that could make open threes when teams doubled MJ, had Rodman to rebound and in the prime of his career Horace Grant was a more than serviceable post player.

Look what LeBron has to work with. Larry Hughes is no Scottie Pippen and at $13+ million the biggest steal he has all season is from the Cavs bank account. Drew Gooden? And they resigned him for $23 million over 3 years last summer? Z is ok by the standard of centers in the league and then you've got the flavor of the minute at the other spot (Snow, Pavlovic, Gibson). LeBron hasn't displayed the passing ability that Steve Nash has but LeBron doesn't have Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudamire to pass to either.

The fact that they're in the playoffs period shows what kind of talent LeBron is (and maybe how bad most of the teams in the East are). I think his "drop-off" - which I don't really think is much of one - is because he's tired of being a guy that people expect should be winning championships and matching feats of the greatest player of all time when he's 22 years old and has nothing around him.

"". I think Troy had a fairly reasoned approach to this, but its still ludicrous - he's being blamed, at 22, for not being Jordan. If the NBA were to do a draft from scratch, does anyone doubt that Lebron would last past the #2 pick (I'm assuming someone might take Kobe)?

[RedKingGold]

My point is that I feel their surronding talent is adequate. They're not playing to their potential...

Again, four games is too small of a sample size to prove the point you are trying to make.

Get rid of LeBron if you want. There will be 28 other franchises ready to take him off of your hands in a few years.

[RedKingGold]

dola

However, I would choose Wade over LeBron.

My own 2 cents.

[stevew]

His number #1 lineup should consist of:

Hughes at the point
Pav
Bron
Varejao
Z

Keep that lineup in there 80% of the time and you win games!

Dude, if we did that, we wouldn't get to see Hot Donny clang wide open threes, and see David Wesley play! Shannon Brown can start, but he can't play more than 8 minutes total. The rotations all year have been a clusterfuck. Gooden is just a mystifing player, he's really good at times, but then he will revert back to being an invalid again and, for example, foul someone shooting a 3. There need to be wholesale changes this offseason, starting with Hughes, hopefully also Gooden, and others. Team needs to get stripped down to the studs, and basically outside of LeBron/Anderson/Z(untradeable, but still effective in spots)/Pavs/Gibson/Shannon everyone needs to go.

[stevew]

dola,

I'd choose Wade too, and I probably watch the cavs at least 75% of the time.

[lordscarlet]

My point is that I feel their surronding talent is adequate. They're not playing to their potential...

But who were the games against? What was the margin of victory? Was it the Celtics by a combined 6 points?

[stevew]

But who were the games against? What was the margin of victory? Was it the Celtics by a combined 6 points?

Actually the one game they lost this year without LeBron was vs the Celtics(no paul peirce). Celtics can't even figure out how to tank correctly.

[Eaglesfan27]

I love watching Wade play, but there is no way I'd take him over LeBron. Wade's style of play along with his stature seem to leave him prone to having injuries problems early in his career. Besides, despite his clutch ability, he doesn't have quite the skill set of LeBron. Wade does have great intangibles which is why I could see him at least being considered ahead of LeBron by some.

[Leonidas]

Jordan was labeled a choker? Huh? He was labeled as selfish. He was labeled as a guy who shot the ball to much. But choker? No. The guy performed well in the clutch right from the start.
Yes. Until Chicago beat the Pistons Mr. Jordan was most certainly being labelled a choker and a pretender. He was even being compared to Dominique Wilkins in the grand scheme of things. Sorry friends, but for a 22-year old, Lebron is winning a lot more NBA games than Jordan. Lay off the guy, please, before he decides New York would better appreciate his talents.

[Leonidas]

So, um, just kinda curious where all the Lebron critics stand these days.

[stevew]

So, um, just kinda curious where all the Lebron critics stand these days.

His team still needs to win 10 more games this offseason for any measure of real success. But assuming they can finish out the nets, I'll be happy for this year if he can put together a strong perfomance vs the Pistons whether they win win or not. They just don't have all the pieces to have a championship level roster, but they're getting close.

[amdaily]

Lets see, 4th quarter stats:

1/5 from the field
2/6 from the line

Lucky to get out of that game alive.

[larrymcg421]

Lets see, 4th quarter stats:

1/5 from the field
2/6 from the line

Lucky to get out of that game alive.

So would it be better if he was 1/5 from the field and 2/6 from the line in the 1st quarter and they had to play catch up the whole game to barely win?

[Logan]

So would it be better if he was 1/5 from the field and 2/6 from the line in the 1st quarter and they had to play catch up the whole game to barely win?

Winner.

[SunDevil]

Nets avoid elimination despite six points in fourth

not a fun game to watch. Another game that I have watched Lebron and come away unimpressed. But somebody has to win this series, neither team is really trying to actually win it though.

[bulletsponge]

Nets avoid elimination despite six points in fourth

not a fun game to watch. Another game that I have watched Lebron and come away unimpressed. But somebody has to win this series, neither team is really trying to actually win it though.


you get the feeling that any team thats already been eliminated from the West would have finished of either one of these team and been playing in the Eastern championship round

[RedKingGold]

If the Cavs do end up making the conference finals, I'd like to hear how amdaily continues to criticize LeBron.

[SunDevil]

If the Cavs do end up making the conference finals, I'd like to hear how amdaily continues to criticize LeBron.

The most ironic word in your sentence is "if". They should have been in the conference finals after last nights game. Did you even watch the game last night? Lebron and his team did not want it last night. They lost at home to a team that only scored 6 points in the four quarter. SIX. In the end you are judged by what you do, not what could of/should of happened. Maybe we will see Lebron take over a game, a game that defines him and sets the tone for the rest of his career, but for now, all I see him do is roll over, show really no emotion, and in the end, lose games that should be won.


Jerry West, whose body outline is the symbol used by the NBA, once said that he hated to lose. It was the worse thing. If I only scored 20 points in the game, I considered that a horrible game.

How many points did Lebron score last night... 20.

[Atocep]

The most ironic word in your sentence is "if". They should have been in the conference finals after last nights game. Did you even watch the game last night? Lebron and his team did not want it last night. They lost at home to a team that only scored 6 points in the four quarter. SIX. In the end you are judged by what you do, not what could of/should of happened. Maybe we will see Lebron take over a game, a game that defines him and sets the tone for the rest of his career, but for now, all I see him do is roll over, show really no emotion, and in the end, lose games that should be won.


Jerry West, whose body outline is the symbol used by the NBA, once said that he hated to lose. It was the worse thing. If I only scored 20 points in the game, I considered that a horrible game.

How many points did Lebron score last night... 20.


The Nets shot the ball well last night and the Cavs, as a team, didn't. Thats why they lost, it has nothing to do with emotion or rolling over or not being able to will them to win. Larry Hughes was 1 for 14 at one point and Lebron did play poorly, but it happens. You can have a bad game in the playoffs or a regular season game in November. The fact is Lebron does have a team in which he's asked carry one win away from the conference finals, which is more than anyone can realistically ask of a 22 year old with absolutely no help.

I'm sure Lebron hates to lose too, so I don't know where you're going with that. Jerry West average 23ppg in the playoffs as a 22 year old. As a 21 year old Lebron averaged 30 per game in the playoffs last season and is averaging 26.2ppg, 7.8rpg, and 8.1apg this season.

Why are people are expecting Lebron to be playing like a 10 year veteran as a 22 year old?

[rkmsuf]

Why are people are expecting Lebron to be playing like a 10 year veteran as a 22 year old?

part of it might be that's it's hard to envision him getting much better than he is now

[MrBug708]

I'm sure Lebron hates to lose too, so I don't know where you're going with that. Jerry West average 23ppg in the playoffs as a 22 year old. As a 21 year old Lebron averaged 30 per game in the playoffs last season and is averaging 26.2ppg, 7.8rpg, and 8.1apg this season.

Was Jerry West a few years out of college?

[Atocep]

Was Jerry West a few years out of college?


Does Lebron James have Elgin Baylor to average over 35ppg in his first 2 trips to the playoffs like West did?

[amdaily]

Didn't both Jordan and West have only 1 full pro season completed at age 22?

Lebron has 4. Stop comparing ages and look at professional experience.

[MrBug708]

Does Lebron James have Elgin Baylor to average over 35ppg in his first 2 trips to the playoffs like West did?

Swell, but what does that have to do with the comment that you made in your post and I highlighted? You can't compare ages with most players then and now. It would be like me asking how many Rings did Kobe have at this point of his career compared to MJ.

Admirable try though...

[Atocep]

Swell, but what does that have to do with the comment that you made in your post and I highlighted? You can't compare ages with most players then and now. It would be like me asking how many Rings did Kobe have at this point of his career compared to MJ.

Admirable try though...

Age plays just a big of a role in development as pro experience, if not bigger. Kobe didn't average over 25ppg until his 5th season in the league. Garnett didn't average 20 until his 4th.

The difference between players now and players "then" is players then had at least 2 years college experience and generally were able to step in and contribute immediately. Kobe didn't, Garnett didn't, Jermain O'Neal sure as hell didn't. Lebron did.

[MrBug708]

Kobe wasn't expected to come in and play as a rookie. Garnett wasn't either. The AAU circuit is much, much more publicized these days then before. I'm not trying to say that Kobe as an 18 year old is better then Lebron as an 18 year old, the draft spot proved that from the beginning. Kobe was good enough to play as a rookie, but he wasn't drafted with the thought that he was going to be nearly as good as he turned out to be

[Atocep]

Kobe wasn't expected to come in and play as a rookie. Garnett wasn't either. The AAU circuit is much, much more publicized these days then before. I'm not trying to say that Kobe as an 18 year old is better then Lebron as an 18 year old, the draft spot proved that from the beginning. Kobe was good enough to play as a rookie, but he wasn't drafted with the thought that he was going to be nearly as good as he turned out to be

But the point is that years in the league couldn't even be used as an excuse for high schoolers until Lebron came around. Lebron changed everything. Until he came along high school players were seen as long-term projects that would take 2-3 years to contribute, it not longer. Age is the defining factor in a player's development and it shows when you look at the other high school players that went directly to the NBA. He stepped in and average over 20ppg as a rookie and over 30ppg in his 3rd year. Something no other high schooler had come close to matching.

The expecations for Lebron have been unrealistically high since he entered the league and for the most part he's actually surpassed them. His team won a playoff series his first time in the playoffs and he has his team 1 win from the conference finals in his second trip. Yet people make it seem like his team wins in spite of him instead of because of the things he does.

If he's overrated its because of insane expectations, not because of the things he's doing on the basketball floor. He's one of the 5 best players in the NBA in his 4th year at 22 years old. Thats awefully damn good no matter how the hell you look at it.

[stevew]

Obviously he was crap on Wednesday, but not to make excuses, he may have had a reason.

CLEVELAND -- LeBron James was hoping to spend Wednesday night celebrating the Cavaliers' first berth in the Eastern Conference Finals in 15 years. Instead he ended up in a rush to be at his girlfriend's side after a deflating and momentum-changing defeat.

At halftime of the Nets' 83-72 blowout win -- yes, it was a blowout, the final differential notwithstanding -- James' longtime girlfriend, Savannah Brinson, had to be taken from Quicken Loans Arena on a stretcher to seek medical attention. She is eight months pregnant with James' second son.



Between this, I hope she's okay, and Z's wife losing twins earlier this year, Hughes's Brother dying, it's been a bad 12 months for the team. Hopefully everything works out for his girlfriend.

[Leonidas]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/basketball/nba/specials/playoffs/2007/05/18/cavs.nets.ap/index.html

Let's see, Kobe is at home, Dwayne is at home, Shaq is at home, Jason is at home, the current MVP is at home, the guy who was MVP the two previous seasons has gone home. Other than Tim Duncan which superstar has had a better postseason run than LeBron? And let's see, Michael didn't make his first conference finals until his fifth season in the league. But I'm sure the haters will come up with something else to criticize LeBron for. Like maybe his sweatband wasn't worn in a professional manner and he chewed gum at the press conference. And he committed more than one foul and missed more than one shot and how he actually had to rely on teammates to win the game. What a slacker.

[RedKingGold]

Let's see. The title of the thread, and the talking point of the intelligent posters here, is an observation about an individual trait in an otherwise very talented players game. LeBron sucks in the clutch. He's done nothing but feed that perception this year. His team went farther than some other star players teams by beating a Washington team that was missing it's two best players and a NJ team that is nothing special. His team is in the conference final of the clearly inferior conference and will be very lucky to win 1 game. No one denies that he has talent and the potential to become one the all time greats, but he is missing a key feature.

Gatorade made a nifty commercial with edited "what if" history that includes Jordan missing the shot over Ehlo. With LeBron, you wouldn't have to edit the video. A jumper at the end for the win means an automatic loss at this point. The addition of that part of his game, if he can do it, would elevate him to his current hype point of all-time great. Right now he's a very good player on a decent team in a bad conference where he doesn't have to make big shots due to the lack of quality competition. Until those big shots at the end go in, he's still not a truly great one.

A simple "I'm wrong" would have sufficed. But thats ok, keep digging.

[jeff061]

A simple "I'm wrong" would have sufficed. But thats ok, keep digging.

You shouldn't speak to a more intelligent poster like that.

[SunDevil]

Let's see. The title of the thread, and the talking point of the intelligent posters here, is an observation about an individual trait in an otherwise very talented players game. LeBron sucks in the clutch. He's done nothing but feed that perception this year. His team went farther than some other star players teams by beating a Washington team that was missing it's two best players and a NJ team that is nothing special. His team is in the conference final of the clearly inferior conference and will be very lucky to win 1 game. No one denies that he has talent and the potential to become one the all time greats, but he is missing a key feature.

Gatorade made a nifty commercial with edited "what if" history that includes Jordan missing the shot over Ehlo. With LeBron, you wouldn't have to edit the video. A jumper at the end for the win means an automatic loss at this point. The addition of that part of his game, if he can do it, would elevate him to his current hype point of all-time great. Right now he's a very good player on a decent team in a bad conference where he doesn't have to make big shots due to the lack of quality competition. Until those big shots at the end go in, he's still not a truly great one.

About sums it up.

[RedKingGold]

You shouldn't speak to someone who thinks they are a really intelligent poster like that.

Fixed.

[Atocep]

Lebron needs to learn the trait of sucking the first 3 and a half quarters of a game then playing his best the last 6 minutes of the game.

Of course I don't think they should even bother keeping score the first 45 minutes of a basketball game, the first 7 innings of a baseball game, or the first 58 minutes of a football game. It should be a clutch-off to decide the winner.

[Gary Gorski]

His team went farther than some other star players teams by beating a Washington team that was missing it's two best players and a NJ team that is nothing special. His team is in the conference final of the clearly inferior conference and will be very lucky to win 1 game.

So does that mean Utah and the players on its team aren't to be held in high regard since they only beat Houston and Golden State to get to the conference finals? The East may be inferior on the whole but Detroit certainly doesn't fall into that category. Then again the alleged best team in the West didn't get out of the first round...

Name me one player on the Cavs roster other than James that you want starting on your favorite team. There's nobody. He's got a supporting cast full of flashes-in-the-pan and never-will-bes and his team is in the conference finals and just beat a team with three players that many teams would LOVE to have (Kidd, Carter and RJ). Give the kid his due - despite nothing around him and a terrible coach he's got his team in the conference finals. They have little chance of beating Detroit but outside of the Spurs I don't know if anyone does so that's kind of hard to hold against LeBron.

[dime]

seems to be a pretty clear division here between the basketball fans and the sports fans who watch it during basketball season or the playoffs.

the criticism of lebron is pretty shallow and subversive at this point. without james, that team may well be the worst in the entire league. with him, they have a good shot at making the nba finals. he's 22. what more needs to be said?

[Atocep]

Basketball fans get that. The GED crowd doesn't.


Keep telling yourself that clutch players exist. Really, its cute.


Your attacks on Gary's game are getting old and annoying and its looking more an more personal. I never bought his game, but I'll respect him as a game designer, as do most people here.

[Atocep]

I'd take LeBron over anyone other than Wade or Kobe at this point if I was starting a franchise, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be smart enough to identify and try to fix his flaw.



Fix not being clutch? What are you going to do, rub a mixture of the blood of Derek Jeter, the hair of Michael Jordan, and the sweat of Larry Bird all over him while Dr. J says a prayer for him?

[larrymcg421]

This is one of the most insane threads ever posted on here. LeBron has (admittedly) missed some 4th quarter shots this year, but that's a pretty small sample size over a person's career. Lots of players have had down years in one area or another. I mean, if he hits some shots next year will he suddenly be "clutch" again?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, he was very clutch against the Wizards last year. Of course, the very jackass that just made a personal insult about the intelligence of people he disagrees with decides that it was only because the refs made terrible calls. Yeah, whining about the refs sure makes you look like a genius.

[Noop]

*popcorn*

[Gary Gorski]

lumping Eldon Brand and Tracey McGrady into the same style of player when trying to make a point about the value of a big man.

He's not lacking anything physical. If he matures to the point of mentally handling the end game, big shot pressure, then he will take the final step into elite status. Right now, he is simply a great player with one glaring flaw.

I'd take LeBron over anyone other than Wade or Kobe at this point if I was starting a franchise, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be smart enough to identify and try to fix his flaw.

Basketball fans get that. The GED crowd doesn't


You would think a basketball fan would at least know the names of the superstar players in the league. So tell us, how you can "fix" what you call a mental issue? And then once you figure out how to fix it send a copy of it to LeBron, Alex Rodriguez and every other athlete who wasn't born with the "clutch" gene. And since the Wizards are your team better mix up a triple batch of the fix for "Zero" so the next time he promises to drop 50 points on someone he can at least get to 10.

Also that entire last paragraph is just ridiculous. Why on earth when picking the #1 player to build your franchise around, in other words THE GUY on your franchise, would you take someone you say is "potential all-time great" who is missing the "clutch" feature. After all, its clear that you can't win an NBA Championship without that "clutch" player...oh wait, D-Wade's making t-Mobile commercials right now and Kobe's figuring out how he can score 100 in a game next season.

Then again maybe that's the smart draft play - take LeBron and then you can just identify which player has the "clutch" gene and grab him in like the 7th round of a restart draft of the NBA and sub him in the final 5 seconds of a game for LeBron when you need that clutch play. Is Toni Kukoc a clutch player because he made a winning shot when Pippen wanted to sit? I'm sure he would be available late in the draft for you to grab. And since you're talking "clutch" and MJ and the Wizards why weren't they putting MJ in the games to make a bunch of game winning shots to carry the Kwame Brown led Wizards into the playoffs? Does your "clutch" gene weaken with age?

Maybe, and call me crazy, but maybe you need some teammates to win. That Kobe guy you mentioned, how's that working out without Shaq? Where was the clutchness of Wade en route to being swept by the Bulls? Could his clutchness not even win one game? Maybe if I added a hidden clutch rating you would like my game better, huh?

[larrymcg421]

Gary, before I buy your game, I need player attribute ratings in several different categories: 1st quarter, 2nd quarter, 3rd quarter, 4th quarter until 2:00 left, 2:00-1:30 in the 4th quarter, 1:30-1:00, 1:00-0:30, :30-0, and OT. This way I can put together a mad rotation of guys who are really good in specific quarters.

[Atocep]

Gary, before I buy your game, I need player attribute ratings in several different categories: 1st quarter, 2nd quarter, 3rd quarter, 4th quarter until 2:00 left, 2:00-1:30 in the 4th quarter, 1:30-1:00, 1:00-0:30, :30-0, and OT. This way I can put together a mad rotation of guys who are really good in specific quarters.

How in the hell are those of us in the GED crowd supposed to handle this much info?

[Izulde]

While I do think there is such a thing as clutch, I find this criticism of Lebron fairly unwarranted. Yes he's had four years in the league, but at 22 years old, he's still several years away from his prime.

Once he hits his prime, both physically and mentally, I think this talk goes away.

[Fidatelo]

I do believe that some players mentally handle pressure situations better than others, but I think it is completely unfair to call someone out as a choker so early in their careers. If he's 32 and still has a history of wilting at the end of games then ya, that's not so good. At this point? Jeez lets just be happy he's so freakin' good in every other aspect of the game.

[dime]

Nobody here is saying he isn't a tremendously talented player with the chance to be an all-time great. What people with a reading comprehension level above that of a retarded emu are saying is that he is missing one feature to his game that would solidify him as more than just a potential all-time great. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Dr. J etc. all hit the big shot when it mattered most...LeBron has yet to do that. He may or may not develop that since it is more a mental than physical attribute. He's not lacking anything physical. If he matures to the point of mentally handling the end game, big shot pressure, then he will take the final step into elite status. Right now, he is simply a great player with one glaring flaw.

I'd take LeBron over anyone other than Wade or Kobe at this point if I was starting a franchise, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be smart enough to identify and try to fix his flaw.

Basketball fans get that. The GED crowd doesn't.

quit bragging about your GED.

if you're a 'basketball fan', then why don't you know anything about basketball? seriously, you sound like jay mariotti or skip bayless or some other dope who spews a "controversial" talking point (lebron is a choker!) and then clings to it in the face of all reason, vainly hoping that those who don't know any better will see it as some sort of intelligent counter-point. it's not. it's just loud stupidity. at least those guys make money embarrassing themselves...what's in it for you?

p.s. I'm sure that danny ferry will be calling you any day now to "identify and try to fix" lebron james' "flaw". make sure your secretary holds all other calls for HiFiRevival, ferry doesn't like being put on hold.

[amdaily]

Scoreless in the last 7 minutes of a very winable game. Nice!

[stevew]

this is the worst thread since the Michelle Wie one.

[Scoobz0202]

I think we should start a thread about every awesome player and highlight every time they have a poor performance. It would be sweet.

[Groundhog]

amdaily, seriously, we get that for whatever reason you have a dislike of LeBron James that seems to verge on the personal.

The guy very nearly had a triple-double and is the sole reason that the Cavs are playing for a chance to be in the NBA final rather than waiting for the lottery balls to give them Greg Oden.

The Pistons are one of the best defensive teams in the nation, with Prince in particular being probably the best one-on-one defender in the NBA. Having your next best player as Larry Hughes, a guy who shoots the ball about as well as me, makes it a lot easier to key in on a penetrating player like LeBron. Even so, James contributed by nearly netting a triple-double, and the Cavs lost by 3 against the team that is likely the NBA champs this year.

[jeff061]

Verge?

[stevew]

Charles Barkley would approve of this thread. Then again, Barkley never won anything. So he can diss on LeBron kicking for the potential win, instead of going for a potential tie.

[larrymcg421]

Of course LeBron is a genius if the shot goes in, just like Jordan was when he kicked it to win two NBA titles.

[larrymcg421]

Didn't both Jordan and West have only 1 full pro season completed at age 22?

Lebron has 4. Stop comparing ages and look at professional experience.

Okay!

A little hard to compare West, since the league was so different. He made the NBA finals in his 2nd and 3rd seasons in an 8 team league. Even with the small league size he didn't win a title until his 11th season, when there were 17 teams in the league.

Jordan

S1: Playoffs, 1st round
S2: Playoffs, 1st round
S3: Playoffs, 1st round
S4: Playoffs, 2nd round
S5: Conference Finals
S6: Conference Finals
S7: Championship

LeBron

S1: No Playoffs
S2: No Playoffs
S3: Conference Semifinals
S4: Conference Finals

So LeBron is a year ahead of Jordan getting to the conference finals. And he'll have at least three more years to match Jordan's championship and 7 more years to match West's championship.

But I understand that LeBron has such a stellar supporting cast around him. I mean, look he's got an NBA top 50 all-time player with him. Oh wait, that was West and Jordan.

You lose.

[stevew]

If anything, LeBron really was too good his rookie year, and they were never able to draft high enough to get another franchise type player to pair him with. And then the Boozer thing. Hell, the Luke Jackson experiment blew up on them, I wish they would have had JR/Josh smith or Al Jefferson. Ah well. millions in blown cap space too.

[Atocep]

If Greg Oden doesn't play at the same level Tim Duncan is right now and win 2 championships as a rookie he'll have a thread similar to this one. Every year the bar for what we expect from young players is raised, while some people just look for reasons to hate great players.

[Groundhog]

Yeah, Tall Poppy Syndrome is all it is, pure and simple.

[RedKingGold]

My god, do the Caviliers (outside of LeBron) suck. How more wide open can you be Donyell? There was no one within a mile of you, and I could have hit that 3-pointer.

If Steve Kerr = Donyell Marshall, then Jordan would have probably won only four championships instead of six

[spleen1015]

Steve Kerr missed 55% of his 3 pointers.

Donyell Marshall has missed 63% of his 3 pointers so far in his career.

Marshall shouldn't have been shooting.

[wade moore]

larry just pnwed amdaily.

[spleen1015]

larry just pnwed amdaily.

Yeah, a little. :D

[RedKingGold]

LeBron James shouldn't have been passing.

Then Michael Jordan should not have passed to Steve Kerr when Kerr was wide open in the NBA Finals, nor should Joe Montana have looked for John Taylor in the end zone for Super Bowl XXIII when Jerry Rice was wide open, etc. etc. When a good 3-point shooter is open in the corner and the play was meant for the ball to go to Marshall in the first place, then LeBron did the right thing. If you want to blame anyone, blame the idiot of a head coach for going for the win or Marshall for missing the wide open three.

Part of greatness is understanding who your teammates are. You only make that pass if you have a three point specialist on the team and he gets open there, otherwise, you go to the freaking hoop yourself.

Once again, as mentioned earlier in this thread, Marshall is the Cavs three point specialist and the best three point shooter on the team. The play was drawn up exactly the way it happened and LeBron put it to perfection, setting up Marshall for an amazing shot. He just missed.

He took 3 shots in the 4th quarter, went 5-15 overall and as the teams primary scorer put up a whopping 10 points in the biggest game of the year so far.

Aren't the Detroit Pistons considered to be one of the most dominating defensive teams of this era? Didn't they absolutely destroy the Magic and Bulls before they got complacent? The most frustrating thing about watching yesterdays game was seeing some of the idiotic shots put up by Larry Hughes. Once again, if LeBron just had a decent point guard or power foward, the Cavs probably win that game.

As for those here taking potshots at Barkley for his after game comments, it's pretty convenient for you to leave out Magic's identical comments when trying to defend Queen James lack of balls at big moments.

Once again, your blatent hatred for LeBron totally weakens your argument and you contradict your earlier posts saying that your view of LeBron is simply because he cannot come up in the clutch and not that you don't like him as a player.

[Deattribution]

It's pretty simple, even if the guy is the biggest choker in the league -

with James = In conference finals with possibility of playing in the NBA finals.

without James = not in the conference finals, maybe not even in the playoffs.

[stevew]

without James = hoping they win the draft lottery tonight

fixed.

[stevew]

Marshall is usually money from that spot, I don't have the statistical breakdown, but I remember him hitting a ton of clutch shots from that spot in the corner this year. I'm not talking game winners, I'm talking the type of 3s that stop the other team from rallying in the 3rd quarter....shit like that, the kind of stuff that helps you win games. But I only watched like 50 cavs games this year, so what the fuck does my GED brain know. Some genius with a stat sheet and the newspaper every third day can better figure it out I'm sure.

[Gary Gorski]

LeBron James shouldn't have been passing. Part of greatness is understanding who your teammates are. You only make that pass if you have a three point specialist on the team and he gets open there, otherwise, you go to the freaking hoop yourself.

Go to the hoop and what? Even if he scores (through the defender and two help defenders) the game is tied and Detroit has 6-7 seconds and a timeout so the ball is at half court. So now you a) have to stop theoretically four players (Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Sheed) who can all hit a game winner especially when the worst that happens is OT and b) if you do go to OT get to play an OT period with James and the rest of the crap he has around him (other than Z, Z was money last night) against four all stars and one former all star in their home gym.

So what's the better chance? Your team with a decent 3 point shooter who is WIDE open taking the shortest 3 point shot on the floor and then trying to get one stop or playing Detroit for a full OT period, at home, in the conference finals and expecting to win that?

Detroit's biggest problem is they know they can flip the switch and turn on the dominance against lesser teams. Cleveland's best chance is to hope Detroit gets lazy and sluggish and steal one at the end - in other words last night exactly. James did absolutely the right thing by making that pass. How can you fault the guy who nearly had a triple double against one of toughest defensive teams in the league? LeBron does understand who his teammates are and its amazing he gets what he does out of them but he's not an outstanding 3 point shooter and in that situation going for the three was absolutely the right move. LeBron drew everyone to him and gave Marshall a look with nobody anywhere near him - LeBron did his job. If it's a one point game and he kicks out for three then I'm right there with you but tying the game meant losing it so I think he did the right thing.

[GoDukes]

What it really comes down to, IMO, is Lebron doesn't play smart. Ever heard him speak (not that it's a sure indicator, but it helps)?

He's a helluva athlete and a very good player, but won't ever be great, IMO, because he's not cerebral enough.

[Logan]

It would've been better if you played the "he bites his nails during crunch time" card.

[larrymcg421]

What it really comes down to, IMO, is Lebron doesn't play smart. Ever heard him speak (not that it's a sure indicator, but it helps)?

He's a helluva athlete and a very good player, but won't ever be great, IMO, because he's not cerebral enough.

Uh, ever hear Bird speak? Magic?

[jeff061]

I would say the smarts of a player is a very important part in how successful they are early in their careers, especially straight out of high school. Test passed.

[Atocep]

Stats and playoff performances have been quoted (you know, facts) that show Lebron is ahead of any NBA player mentioned so far, yet the best anyone can come up with is he's "not clutch" and he's "not cerebral".

Can I get someone that doens't have a GED to figure out Lebron's clutch rating using the equation below so we can end this discussion? I'm going to try and help the "lebron sucks and isn't clutch" crowd by suppling the equation below (since the arguement is severly lacking in facts).

Standard clutch rating: (heart + guts/intangibles) * (ability to speak/cerebralness + big shots made)

[Logan]

Another fucker who forgot the nail-biting!

:)

[st.cronin]

My favorite part of this thread is how some people (on both sides) act like saying "LeBron is no Jordan" is some kind of insult. Of course he's no Jordan!

[Neon_Chaos]

With a chance to win or tie for OT in an opponent's home court, the concensus among most NBA pros and coaches is to always go for the win.

Apparently, the play wasn't designed for Donyell at all. It just so happened that things unfolded the way they did.


From ESPN

"The play wasn't designed for me to get the shot," Marshall said. "Me not having made a 3 all night, they probably didn't even know I was in the game."


"It looked like everybody collapsed because there was nobody near Donyell," Cavs coach Mike Brown said. "I mean, he could have sat and had a cup of coffee before he even shot the basketball. LeBron trusts his teammates, his teammates trust him, and you've just got to step up and knock the shot down."


The play developed perfectly, and Lebron did what he needed to do. He drew in the defense and found the open man for the three. Marshall had a good look and missed; that's just the breaks of the game.

I'm not sure why Lebron should be compared to Jordan, when in fact he's much closer to Magic Johnson in terms of his size and playing style. Lebron's better at creating shots for his teammates, and he stuck to his strength during those final seconds.

If there's anyone who should be compared to Jordan, it's Kobe. And in that similar situation, Kobe would indeed have taken the shot if he saw even a hint of daylight (even if the play was designed for Marshall).

Steve Kerr, a guy who's hit his fair share of big game 3-pointers has a good article up regarding his thoughts on the pass and why it was a good decision by LBJ23:

hxxp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/nba_experts/post/Giving-Cavs-their-best-shot;_ylt=Ai3abloOEVdXZ1IoQAvvDq28vLYF?urn=nba,33578

[Logan]

Is there some revisionist stuff going on? Could've sworn I heard something earlier this morning that quoted Brown as saying that was the specific play design.

[Arles]

You guys are missing the point here. Lebron should have dribbled over to the corner, shoved Marshall into the defender to get him space and then drained the 3-pointer himself.

That's what REAL superstarz do!

[Neon_Chaos]

You guys are missing the point here. Lebron should have dribbled over to the corner, shoved Marshall into the defender to get him space and then drained the 3-pointer himself.

That's what REAL superstarz do!

damn straight.

[GoDukes]

Uh, ever hear Bird speak? Magic?


Yes, all the time. Magic is interviewed almost every time the Lakers play on National TV.

[Carman Bulldog]

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/E4U-gZWHq7A"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/E4U-gZWHq7A" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[SunDevil]

5 points in the whole second half of the game. 5 points.

[amdaily]

Now spin this one.

Ditto says it all....

[Groundhog]

I hope the Cavs trade him for Robert Horry and Derek Fisher so we can actually go out and win some games next season and maybe even make the playoffs.

[amdaily]

I hope the Cavs trade him for Robert Horry and Derek Fisher so we can actually go out and win some games next season and maybe even make the playoffs.

This would almost be funny mid-season, but when the Cavs should have a 2-0 lead on the Eastern Conference champs... give me a break.

[Groundhog]

This would almost be funny mid-season, but when the Cavs should have a 2-0 lead on the Eastern Conference champs... give me a break.

*should*? I don't know about that. The Pistons *should* be stomping the Cleveland LeBronaliers, on paper at least. That they aren't is a combination of the fact that they apparently don't take these games seriously, and that the Cavs have that LeBron James guy on their roster who, even if he isn't scoring, does enough other things to get what is an otherwise lottery-bound roster to the EC finals.

LeBron doesn't have a Scottie Pippen, a Toni Kukoc, or a Steve Kerr. He barely has a Jud Buechler. We've got a 2nd round PG playing big minutes for the sole reason that he's just about the only guy on the roster who seems to be able to knock down an open shot, and a coach who would probably struggle coaching the original Dream Team to an exhibition win over the Kenyan national team.

If we get NBA title-quality players around LeBron and we still can't get over the hump, then I'm willing to discuss this issue. Until then, I'll happily watch my team compete in the EC Finals while fans of the other 26 teams in the league wait for the offseason.

[Young Drachma]

LeBron is just a kid. You all act like he's been in a league a decade and has the sort of talent that Kobe had when he came out. If you had Shaq backing you up, you'd be confident as hell too. Or in Magic's case, James Worthy, Kareem and all of those guys. Hell, Michael Jordan had a better starting cast when he in the playoffs early in his career.

Bottom line is, with LeBron, that squad is a lottery team without having to tank games. He's done nothing short of will that franchise to victory almost so much that we're watching them in their slick new unis and we've basically forgotten that the Cavs were as irrelevant as can be before he showed up.

As for not making the game winning shot, the fact is...he's young. He's not the sort of guy that scores 60 like Kobe and wins games. And if he was, no one would have been heralding him the way they were from before he left high school.

I don't care if this team had Michael Jordan in his prime. They'd still have problems sealing the deal. It's not LeBron's fault his cast of characters are basically a bunch of retreads who should be bench players at best, by and large.

If Detroit was doing anything other than putting the car into cruise control, they'd be winning by 30 or more per night. But it's a testament to LeBron's game and how much he disrupts a defense, that they've been able to stay in these games...and that they gave this same team fits last year.

[Groundhog]

LOL. What a freaking moronic set of statements. The reality of the situation is that the team has been in position to win both games and the "King" has been a jester. It would be one thing if LeBron was good at closing out games/hitting big shots but was struggling in the conference championship series. Then you could chalk it up totally to other issues such as team/coach/inexperience. Instead, we've got an otherwise fantastic player who never makes the game winning shot no matter what.

The horrible coach and mediocre surrounding talent didn't miss a free throw and a shot in the final two minutes tonight. They aren't the ones throwing passes all over the place late in the game. They aren't the ones who transform from aggressive stars to passive role players the more important the situation is. A bunch of turnovers and another poor shooting night for LeBron.

The most 'freaking moronic' thing about this thread is the seeming inability for most people in this thread to grasp the fact that the lack of talent around LeBron might account for his lack of success in the clutch, when his team isn't able to shoot for shit and the D is locked in on him. Yeah, he missed a FT. So did a Piston (Wallace?). And that was hardly the most fucked up thing that happened in the last 60 seconds of that game, with both teams doing their best to throw it away. He missed a shot in the last 2 minutes? I bet a bunch of fucking players did in that disaster of a 4th Q by both teams.

The guy just can't win. First he gets criticized for passing the ball to an open Marshall (a solid 3pt shooter), and now he's getting criticized for attacking the basket and trying to draw a foul. I mean, fuck.

And for the record, LeBron *HAS* hit a game winner before, at least once, and he *has* performed in the 4th quarter before, on many occassions.

LeBron is not a take-over scorer/shooter like Kobe Bryant, and is far more in the playmaking Magic Johnson style of player. People should stop expecting him to just put this fucking team on his back and carry them to the finals while the other 4 guys on the court with him stink up the place ala Kobe and the Lakers, because that's not the skill set he's got. That he does it as much as he does is pretty bloody remarkable all things considered.

[jbergey22]

LOL. What a freaking moronic set of statements. The reality of the situation is that the team has been in position to win both games and the "King" has been a jester. It would be one thing if LeBron was good at closing out games/hitting big shots but was struggling in the conference championship series. Then you could chalk it up totally to other issues such as team/coach/inexperience. Instead, we've got an otherwise fantastic player who never makes the game winning shot no matter what.

The horrible coach and mediocre surrounding talent didn't miss a free throw and a shot in the final two minutes tonight. They aren't the ones throwing passes all over the place late in the game. They aren't the ones who transform from aggressive stars to passive role players the more important the situation is. A bunch of turnovers and another poor shooting night for LeBron.

You have a very limited knowledge of NBA hoops is all I am going to say. You seem to want to label yourself a basketball fan yet you dont seem to know a thing about it. You claim you could identify and teach LeBron how to fix his flaw. From that statement I can tell you dont have the slightest idea, the reason he hasnt been as successful in the clutch is because he doesnt have the confidence in himself and his teamates that he does at other parts of the game. It has nothing to do with teaching him anything, you cant teach him confidence you can only condition him to be put in them situations. In fact it has nothing to do with anything other than the fact he hasnt been in this situation enough. When Kobe was a rookie I remember him wanting to hog the ball as the end of games, I am sure his teammates wanted to kick his ass, but what it did was gave Kobe the confidence to become one the best clutch players of his time because he was NOT afraid to fail. We dont remember how many times Michael Jordan failed because he suceeded enough to make us forget, LeBron will be the same way.

What makes some people better public speakers than others other than the obvious?

What makes Derek Jeter a better player in the post season than Alex Rodriguez?

What makes you better than most as making an ass of yourself with some of the things you say?

Confidence and being comfortable in your surroundings is the answer.
Again you arent born with this, this cant be taught it is just something you need to experience in order to adjust to it.

PS You sound like the fool, when you act like the board know it all and even more of a fool when you try to respond to a comment by ripping on a game that a poster designed.

[stevew]

There is no point arguing with the anti-lebron trolls anymore. So they can all foad.

[Neon_Chaos]

LOL. What a freaking moronic set of statements. The reality of the situation is that the team has been in position to win both games and the "King" has been a jester. It would be one thing if LeBron was good at closing out games/hitting big shots but was struggling in the conference championship series. Then you could chalk it up totally to other issues such as team/coach/inexperience. Instead, we've got an otherwise fantastic player who never makes the game winning shot no matter what.

The horrible coach and mediocre surrounding talent didn't miss a free throw and a shot in the final two minutes tonight. They aren't the ones throwing passes all over the place late in the game. They aren't the ones who transform from aggressive stars to passive role players the more important the situation is. A bunch of turnovers and another poor shooting night for LeBron.

Ilgauskas, Gooden, and Hughes combined for a grand whooping total of 15 points, 5 of 19 from the field. If anything, I'd blame the loss on them and not on Lebron. They could have had this game at the start of the Third Quarter, but Lebron's teammates were nowhere to be found.

[miami_fan]

Dear Danny Ferry,

Since Lebron is weak minded and incapable of leading your team past the regular season....I mean first round of the playoffs......I mean the 2nd round of the playoffs..........I mean the Eastern Conference Finals, I have a proposition for you. The Heat will send you Jason Williams(clutch shooter, lineup diversity), Antoine Walker(very willing to take the big shot anytime you want him to and sometimes when you don't want him to), and James Posey(is there a tougher player in the league? I think not) for the burden of taking that mental weakling off your hands.

Signed
Pat Riley

[Butter]

I guess you have to get tackled in order to get a foul called in the closing moments of a road playoff game.

[Gary Gorski]

The horrible coach and mediocre surrounding talent didn't miss a free throw and a shot in the final two minutes tonight. They aren't the ones throwing passes all over the place late in the game

You're right - the horrible coach drew up a play down one to run down the entire clock and basically put the game on one shot rather than running a quick play that if it failed would at least give them a chance to foul and at worst be down three and could tie with a last second shot. The horrible coach once again also burned all of his timeouts prior to the end of the game so even if the above scenario did happen they would have had to go the length of the floor to get a last second shot. And the horrible coach, down one with Detroit going to the line, had a tantrum at midcourt and got T'd up.

The mediocre surrounding players like Pavlovic only crapped his pants on a wide open shot and then traveled (btw I loved Lebron's facial expression after that - if there was ever an expression like who the hell are these jokers I'm playing with that was it) and of course fellow partner in mediocrity Larry Hughes missed a wide open jump shot from 7 feet out which would have won the game and then you have the third wheel of mediocrity Varejao who I won't fault for the missed tip in but will for deciding to pull a play from the Vlade Divac school of flopping rather than actually trying to defend Wallace on what became the game winning shot. Like he's going to get that call in the final minute of the conference finals in Detroit when one guy is Rasheed Wallace and he's Anderson freakin Varejao.

You know why Lebron had six turnovers? Because he's a forward playing point guard! Well he's playing point guard, shooting guard and small forward all at once really. The guy has 19 points (25% of the team's points), 7 assists, 6 boards and 3 steals and he's the one you want to rag on? The ONLY reason ANYONE else on that team ever scores is because there's basically 5 guys waiting to defend Lebron. The Cavs would be better with Lebron and Detroit's 4 main subs (Hunter, Delfino, Maxiell and McDyess) than they are with their own starters. People want to talk about MJ - well at least when teams were double teaming Jordan at the end of a game they had to know where Kerr, Pippen etc were on the floor - with the Cavs you make sure nobody's standing on the block (although apparently they can't even make a wide open 7 footer) and then everyone guard Lebron because him 1 on 5 is the best shot to score as opposed to anyone else wide open.

[Noop]

I think Melo is likely to win a NBA Championship before Lebron ever will... the reason is not because Melo has a better team(but they play in a better conference it balances out) but because Melo has been through March Madness.(Conference Tourneys and all that) Its something about performing on the biggest basketball stage that seperates college kids from highschool kids.

I do not state this as a fact but rather an observation. I know Kobe has a title but I would put that more on Shaq then Kobe. Wade lead his team to the final four so you know that kid is clutch, Melo as well. Garnett, T Mac, Lebron won't win a title without another college played superstar.

Again just my opinion.

[jbergey22]

Mello wont win an NBA championship with Allen Iverson on his team. Iverson only helps a team that isnt good offensively. His poor shooting percentage and the fact that he loves to shoot hurts the team in the fact he is taking away shots from better options by hoisting his low percentage shots. I agree with your point about NCAA tournament conditions however, I agree that these players are more conditioned to deal with the "high pressure situations" much better than players that havent been through this.

[RedKingGold]

I really only watch playoff basketball, but watching pretty much all of the Cavs playoffs games this year has taught me that if the Cavs just went out and traded for either Jason Kidd or Andre Miller and allowed James to play off the ball, the Cavs would be be consistently in the race for the NBA Finals.

Especially Andre Miller. Anyone wonder why Andre Igwoduala suddenly became a great player after the Iverson trade? It wasn't because the team got rid of Iverson, but because the team got Miller to run the point. He won't make the plays like Kidd or Nash, but he's one of the best pure point guards in the league right now that no one knows about.

[miami_fan]

I really only watch playoff basketball, but watching pretty much all of the Cavs playoffs games this year has taught me that if the Cavs just went out and traded for either Jason Kidd or Andre Miller and allowed James to play off the ball, the Cavs would be be consistently in the race for the NBA Finals.

Especially Andre Miller. Anyone wonder why Andre Igwoduala suddenly became a great player after the Iverson trade? It wasn't because the team got rid of Iverson, but because the team got Miller to run the point. He won't make the plays like Kidd or Nash, but he's one of the best pure point guards in the league right now that no one knows about.

Andre Miller was the Cavs last good point guard.

Who did they replace him with Cav fans?:D

[GoDukes]

I guess you have to get tackled in order to get a foul called in the closing moments of a road playoff game.

That's always been "how it is" though.

[GoDukes]

Dear Danny Ferry,

Since Lebron is weak minded and incapable of leading your team past the regular season....I mean first round of the playoffs......I mean the 2nd round of the playoffs..........I mean the Eastern Conference Finals, I have a proposition for you. The Heat will send you Jason Williams(clutch shooter, lineup diversity), Antoine Walker(very willing to take the big shot anytime you want him to and sometimes when you don't want him to), and James Posey(is there a tougher player in the league? I think not) for the burden of taking that mental weakling off your hands.

Signed
Pat Riley

You must realize that the East is very week and probably the top 9 teams in the West could've hung in there in the Eastern Playoffs. They've got the Pistons and....well....yeah.

[miami_fan]

You must realize that the East is very week and probably the top 9 teams in the West could've hung in there in the Eastern Playoffs. They've got the Pistons and....well....yeah.

Even more reason to trade him to the Heat. Obviously what he has accomplished is lacking. So once again, trade Lebron and saddle a potential conference rival with a mentally weak player.

[Butter]

That's always been "how it is" though.

You're right, it's still stupid, though.

[BrianD]

If Detroit was doing anything other than putting the car into cruise control, they'd be winning by 30 or more per night. But it's a testament to LeBron's game and how much he disrupts a defense, that they've been able to stay in these games...and that they gave this same team fits last year.

Not to take a side, but you really need to decide if it is the Pistons on cruise control, or LeBron's game that is keeping things close. It really doesn't work to have it both ways.

[Groundhog]

Not to take a side, but you really need to decide if it is the Pistons on cruise control, or LeBron's game that is keeping things close. It really doesn't work to have it both ways.

Why?

As I said above, the Cavs should be getting blown out both games on paper. That they aren't is due to a combination of LeBron and the Pistons not coming out with enough fire.

[RedKingGold]

Now now, leave logic out of this. LeBron, as everyone here attests, is a tremendous talent whom teams must base their defense around. It's just a very stupid few who can't seem to comprehend that his inability to make any kind of shot with a game on the line is a negative that must be fixed before he's put in the same class as the truly great players. He doesn't have to make every one, or even necessarily take every one, but at some point he has to at least show the ability to make one.

What does having tremendous talent have to do with the fabled "clutch-shot" ability?

[Groundhog]

Now now, leave logic out of this. LeBron, as everyone here attests, is a tremendous talent whom teams must base their defense around. It's just a very stupid few who can't seem to comprehend that his inability to make any kind of shot with a game on the line is a negative that must be fixed before he's put in the same class as the truly great players. He doesn't have to make every one, or even necessarily take every one, but at some point he has to at least show the ability to make one.

As I also said earlier in this thread, he has hit one. This season.

[larrymcg421]

As I also said earlier in this thread, he has hit one. This season.

Not to mention against the Wizards in the playoffs last year.

[amdaily]

Not to mention against the Wizards in the playoffs last year.

This is a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately league, and Lebron has passed up a game winning shot twice in the ECF's cause he is to insecure to take it.

Champions don't do that.

[Jas_lov]

This is a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately league, and Lebron has passed up a game winning shot twice in the ECF's cause he is to insecure to take it.

Champions don't do that.

I thought he passed up the game tying shot in game 1 and shot the game winning shot in game 2 but missed, i could be wrong though. And champions do have to pass at some point or have you never heard of John Paxson and Steve Kerr? The Cavs just need their role players to all step up on one night. Illgauskas was good in game 1 and sucked in game 2. Palvovich good in game 2, bad in game 1. And Larry Hughes has just been terrible in both games. Every superstar in recent years has always had that other guy to count on whether it's Pippen, Kobe, Parker, Ginobli, Drexler, Dumars, Worthy, Mchale, etc. etc. Lebron doesn't have that guy or anything close.

[larrymcg421]

This is a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately league, and Lebron has passed up a game winning shot twice in the ECF's cause he is to insecure to take it.

Champions don't do that.

Maybe come back to this thread when you've actually watched or even read about the games. Jesus.

[amdaily]

Maybe come back to this thread when you've actually watched or even read about the games. Jesus.

I've seen them both, much to my own Cleveland-native heartbreak.

Watching our supposed superstar pass off sure basket to D. Mashall was bad enough, but to see yet another pass go to the 0-everything Pavlovic in game two was every worse :mad:

[larrymcg421]

Michael Jordan is mentally weak:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxNc89NjsDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNNCQMH0BF8

[amdaily]

I've seen them both, much to my own Cleveland-native heartbreak.

Watching our supposed superstar pass off sure basket to D. Mashall was bad enough, but to see yet another pass go to the 0-everything Pavlovic in game two was every worse :mad:

Eagerly waiting for Brown to insert Newble at the half course line in game 3 so 'Bron can dish a pass back to him to lose the game...

[larrymcg421]

I've seen them both, much to my own Cleveland-native heartbreak.

Watching our supposed superstar pass off sure basket to D. Mashall was bad enough, but to see yet another pass go to the 0-everything Pavlovic in game two was every worse :mad:

That's really stretching game winning shot. I mean, at what point must he always take the shot? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 4th quarter? He did take the shot after that.

Also, Pavlovic was 7 of 10 in game 2. Highest shooting % on the Cavs.

You lose again. Keep trying, though!

[amdaily]

That's really stretching game winning shot. I mean, at what point must he always take the shot? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 4th quarter? He did take the shot after that.

Also, Pavlovic was 7 of 10 in game 2. Highest shooting % on the Cavs.

You lose again. Keep trying, though!

And a big ole' zero from 3pt land on the game; just as Marshall was in game 1.

Hell, even Donyell said he was surprised to get the ball at the point considering how cold he was shooting from that distance. That wasn't a coaching call, that was a Lebron call. And you people need to face it: he fucking blew it big time.

[larrymcg421]

Yeah, pass up a 40% 3pt shooter because he's 0 for 3 in the game. That's a pretty small sample size, don't you think?

[Atocep]

Hell, even Donyell said he was surprised to get the ball at the point considering how cold he was shooting from that distance.

Cold? Donyell hits 6 threes in the previous game against New Jersey and misses his only attempt in game one against Detroit and he's cold from that distance?

[Atocep]

Whats funny is Steve Nash has won two MVPs because he'd make that pass. Lebron James is being ripped on message boards and in the media because he did.

[Brian Swartz]

Steve Nash is the exception. He is automatically immune to the criticism that comes to any other MVP winner, and many other players who have not been MVPs, that can't get their teams to the Finals. The mere fact that he is Steve Nash and that Phoenix is fun to watch automatically precludes the mere possibility that his greatness could be questioned.

[amdaily]

SThe mere fact that he is Steve Nash and that Phoenix is fun to watch

Yeah, that's why he gets the exception...

[Jas_lov]

Whats funny is Steve Nash has won two MVPs because he'd make that pass. Lebron James is being ripped on message boards and in the media because he did.

Yeah, I just don't get all the ripping on Lebron for passing when every superstar passes late in the game at some point. How do you think Robert Horry got his nickname? Lebron has taken his team as far as Nash ever has with a far worse supporting cast albeit in the Eastern Conference, but it's still impressive for a 3rd year player who has to do everything for his team because no one else can create a shot for themselves.

[amdaily]

for a 3rd year player

4th...

[Jas_lov]

4th...

Whoops. You're right for the first time tonight.

[amdaily]

Whoops. You're right for the first time tonight.

No worries, people will try to pull the same faux pas when he is still winless in his is 11th season... ;)

[jbergey22]

No worries, people will try to pull the same faux pas when he is still winless in his is 11th season... ;)


Get a clue or find some other sport to worry about because you are blind when it comes to the NBA.

[MrBug708]

So Lebron passes and he's criticized for passing and not shooting more and yet, Kobe is clutch but is blasted for not being a good team player when he shoots too much.

*sigh*

[Eaglesfan27]

So Lebron passes and he's criticized for passing and not shooting more and yet, Kobe is clutch but is blasted for not being a good team player when he shoots too much.

*sigh*

I agree. It is ridiculous that Lebron is being criticized for making a perfect pass to a wide open teammate that has been a very good 3 point shooter throughout his career.

[Jas_lov]

Under 4 minutes and headed for another good finish. Lebron is approaching a tripple double. Big Z, Palvovich, and Gooden all playing well for a change. Lebron just hit a fadeaway 3 and has 30/9/9.

[Atocep]

Who went and taught Lebron how to make big shots?

[Eaglesfan27]

And another big shot by Lebron.

[Jas_lov]

And that might seal it. I guess Lebron isn't mentally weak after all.

[SackAttack]

Yeah, but c'mon - he missed a 23-footer with less than three minutes to go! Can't let him off TOTALLY easy, right?

:D

[miami_fan]

DAMMIT! Don't believe it Cavs fan, He really can't hit big shots. Make the trade! Make the trade!

[Atocep]

And that might seal it. I guess Lebron isn't mentally weak after all.

Until next game....

[Atocep]

Omg why did Billups pass that to Prince!?! Someone tell Chauncey he's Mr. Big Shot and is contractually obligated to take that shot.

[Brian Swartz]

No doubt. Unquestionable, ironclad proof that Chauncey is mentally weak. Pistons have no chance to win with him in the lineup.

[Groundhog]

Yeah. Chauncey is clearly a big time player, but he just doesn't have that mental edge that the superstars have. No way do these Pistons do anything with him leading the team.

[Logan]

Threads like this are why I <3 FOFC.

[Leonidas]

Waiting for the first anti-LeBron troll to try and take a cheap shot at him now. OK, I'll do it for them. Jordan would have scored 60 and gotten the triple double. LeBron is just a cheap hack. And Detroit isn't any good anyway, wait until LeBron plays a real team from the West like Utah. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Leonidas]

Let's see. The title of the thread, and the talking point of the intelligent posters here, is an observation about an individual trait in an otherwise very talented players game. LeBron sucks in the clutch. He's done nothing but feed that perception this year. His team went farther than some other star players teams by beating a Washington team that was missing it's two best players and a NJ team that is nothing special. His team is in the conference final of the clearly inferior conference and will be very lucky to win 1 game. No one denies that he has talent and the potential to become one the all time greats, but he is missing a key feature.

Gatorade made a nifty commercial with edited "what if" history that includes Jordan missing the shot over Ehlo. With LeBron, you wouldn't have to edit the video. A jumper at the end for the win means an automatic loss at this point. The addition of that part of his game, if he can do it, would elevate him to his current hype point of all-time great. Right now he's a very good player on a decent team in a bad conference where he doesn't have to make big shots due to the lack of quality competition. Until those big shots at the end go in, he's still not a truly great one.
Would some intelligent posters please tell the rest of us retards what happened last night, we need enlightenment as we dumb people thought LeBron stepped up and had a really big game and was clutch. Or am I too stupid to understand the term clutch? Or did the refs give him the game, or, well, what intelligent rationale is available for intelligent posters to explain what really happened since intelligent posters are the only ones capable of understanding the amazing depth of LeBron's inability to play well in an important game. Please, provide we stupid posters some guidance. Please tell us who we really should look to as a great player in this day and age. Nash? Kobe? Wade? Oh, I foolishly suggested those guys are at home watching TV, putting my stupidity on display for the intelligent posters to ridicule. Maybe we stupid fans who consider LeBron to be a real quality player should convert to be Chauncey Billups fans.

[Neon_Chaos]

Wow, I never noticed it, but Billups is averaging 5.67 turnovers per game this series.

[Neon_Chaos]

dola,

I wonder if HiFiRevival ever saw the Cavs-Wizards series last year? You know, the one where LeBron sealed the deal with a game-winning lay-up?

[Groundhog]

dola,

I wonder if HiFiRevival ever saw the Cavs-Wizards series last year? You know, the one where LeBron sealed the deal with a game-winning lay-up?

I'm sure he's seen about the same amount of LeBron in the playoffs this year as with last year - next to none.

[stevew]

fwiw, I still hate it when Lebron takes fadeaway 3's...hell 3's in general. If, and its a big IF, he can ever get to where he's actually a pure shooter like Jordan or Kobe, he'll be fucking unstoppable. For now, his percentages look good cause he gets quite a few dunks.

[stevew]

Shit....I had to work and missed the 2nd half of the game....that was a nice Facial on Sheed.

[stevew]

triple dola....am I wrong to be happy that Larry Hughes may have an injury and miss a game or so.

[miami_fan]

fwiw, I still hate it when Lebron takes fadeaway 3's...hell 3's in general. If, and its a big IF, he can ever get to where he's actually a pure shooter like Jordan or Kobe, he'll be fucking unstoppable. For now, his percentages look good cause he gets quite a few dunks.

The funny thing about this thread is that there are enough flaws in his game at this point that are legitimate that there is no need to go searching for things that just aren't there. Lebron needs to work to get a more consistent jumper. He needs to be more aggressive(selfish?) especially with his current teammates. He needs to be MUCH better at the free throw line. Hell he may have to develop the sixth sense to completely ignore his coach and call his own plays. The idea that he is not "clutch" or is mentally weak flies what we have already seen from him.

[mckerney]

Waiting for the first anti-LeBron troll to try and take a cheap shot at him now. OK, I'll do it for them. Jordan would have scored 60 and gotten the triple double. LeBron is just a cheap hack. And Detroit isn't any good anyway, wait until LeBron plays a real team from the West like Utah. Yeah, that's the ticket.

OMG! LeBron is so bad at and so scared of the final shot he played well enough to beat the Pistons without needing it. LOL, he only went 32-9-9, he didn't hit a big shot people.

[stevew]

The funny thing about this thread is that there are enough flaws in his game at this point that are legitimate that there is no need to go searching for things that just aren't there. Lebron needs to work to get a more consistent jumper. He needs to be more aggressive(selfish?) especially with his current teammates. He needs to be MUCH better at the free throw line. Hell he may have to develop the sixth sense to completely ignore his coach and call his own plays. The idea that he is not "clutch" or is mentally weak flies what we have already seen from him.

It's unacceptable for a "superstar" to shoot less than 80 percent from the line. Ideally he should be closer to 85.

[Brian Swartz]

Shaq and Duncan would beg to differ :).

[dime]

Fantastic. That's the kind of aggressive, I'm the best on the court and I'll play like it when my team needs it most, play that I've been waiting to see from LeBron. The dunk was great, and he finally realized that Rip Hamilton absolutely cannot defend him 1 on 1. Just pull up over him and hit the 15 foot jumper and Hamilton will be helpless. There is absolutely no reason why he hasn't learned this before. He's got a mediocre team around him and always took bad shots or deferred to teammates late. He finally stepped up and put a team away himself. It's about time he ignored his idiot coach and did what was best for the team. Even a miss in that situation would have been a positive since he didn't take a bad 3 or some weak drive to the rim where he cried about a foul. Just knew the situation and took advantage of it.

Now, more polish on that jumper and you've got an unstoppable player.


"take it easy, champ. why don't you stop talking for awhile."

[Groundhog]

triple dola....am I wrong to be happy that Larry Hughes may have an injury and miss a game or so.

Completely justified.

I just hope Brown inserts Gibson in to the lineup over Snow.

[Groundhog]

Even a miss in that situation would have been a positive since he didn't take a bad 3 or some weak drive to the rim where he cried about a foul. Just knew the situation and took advantage of it.


Wrong. A miss in that situation would have had you back in this thread crucifying him for being mentally weak.

[jeff061]

Wrong. A miss in that situation would have had you back in this thread crucifying him for being mentally weak.

Wonder if he is going to streak to both ends of the LeBron fan spectrum after every game.

Post count++.

[Jas_lov]

As much as Detroit struggled in the 2nd quarter they're only down 7 with a nice run at the end. Billups is the only one scoring tonight for the Pistons while the Cavs are getting contributions from Gooden, Gibson, and Big Z as well as Lebron. Gibson especially did really well getting to the basket. Should be an interesting 2nd half.

[dime]

cavs seemed to be a little too content with being up 7 at the half...

[Jas_lov]

Now it's Cleveland really struggling but they should be happy to only be down by 2. Lebron needs to take over in the 4th like in game 3 if they want to win. Not sure Detroit is going to let that happen though.

[Noop]

Man LeBron is really something else. He looks great and if he had another good player on his team he would be damn near unstoppable.

[RedKingGold]

Bump for two "clutch" free throws with 4 seconds left to seal the win and tie the series

[Groundhog]

Yeah, is he clutch yet, or does the next game where he misses a shot in the final 2 minutes make him non-clutch again?

[mckerney]

Yeah, is he clutch yet, or does the next game where he misses a shot in the final 2 minutes make him non-clutch again?

If clutch is something you can magically gain in the middle of the playoffs, he'll be unclutch again shortly.

[Passacaglia]

well, you can't have a little bit of clutch
and, you can can't hope to acquire clutch

[Groundhog]

It might make it easier if the NBA put a 'clutch' rating on the player profile pages.

[Atocep]

When does Billups get a thread? ;)

[Schmidty]

This series is still over. Pistons in 6.

[Groundhog]

Might go to game 7 if Gibson can score 20 points a game for the rest of the series.

Would be a good year for the Cavs to upset the Pistons though, because I kind of like our chances against the Spurs to be honest.

[miami_fan]

Yeah, is he clutch yet, or does the next game where he misses a shot in the final 2 minutes make him non-clutch again?

Let's be honest. He would have been non clutch if Gibson or Gooden had missed any of those shots in the 4th qtr.

[jbergey22]

I think this guy is missing that something special!!!:rolleyes:


What a game, LeBron has carried the Cavs on his shoulders and might be able to single handed beat the Pistons.

[Eaglesfan27]

Best individual performance I've seen in a meaningful game since Jordan.

Also, the most fun I've had watching a game in several years.

[Atocep]

I still haven't seen him win a game at the buzzer.

[stevew]

FOAD bitches. Is that a game winner yet?

[wade moore]

Best individual performance I've seen in a meaningful game since Jordan.

Also, the most fun I've had watching a game in several years.Yes and yes.

[larrymcg421]

Just popping in to say hi.

[dime]

I can't remember seeing such a big game coached this poorly.

that said...

Jordan was never this good. Jordan needed a lot of free throws to score 40, 50 points. James is not getting those calls just yet, he's finishing the play and hitting ridiculous jump shots with two defenders on him 25 feet out.

[mckerney]

LeBron 18
Detroit 16

[Deattribution]

That was an amazing game by James, he completely dominated.

[jbergey22]

***Ping AMDaily & HiFiRevival***

[Jas_lov]

I can't remember seeing such a big game coached this poorly.

that said...

Jordan was never this good. Jordan needed a lot of free throws to score 40, 50 points. James is not getting those calls just yet, he's finishing the play and hitting ridiculous jump shots with two defenders on him 25 feet out.

And James won that game practically by himself starting with the 4th quarter. He scored something like 30 of their last 31 points. Detroit didn't really make anyone else have to shoot the ball at the end which was a huge mistake.

[Neon_Chaos]

LeBron just carved his name in NBA Playoff History.

[RedKingGold]

[QUOTE=ice4277;1364090]Ping: WrongWay

Yup. Amdaily can now be among the immortal FOFC legends WrongWay and Bubba Wheels.

Congratulations on this great honor!

;)

[Radii]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 13 (9 members and 4 guests)


This is better than "Raiders looking great in preseason" and being 0-20.

That was an incredible performance, glad I caught it.

[Hammer755]

I don't care how many game-ending shots he misses, this series tells you all you need to know about LeBron. He is leading a team of nobodies that shouldn't have any chance of hanging with the 4-time defending Eastern Conference champs, and has them in the driver's seat. Even the two games the Cavs lost came down to the final possession. He's the best scorer, shooter, rebounder and passer on his team and it's not even close. He probably had to drive the bus to the airport after the game, too.

[Neon_Chaos]

I'm getting a John Kerry vibe.

[Neon_Chaos]

He is leading a team of nobodies that shouldn't have any chance of hanging with the 4-time defending Eastern Conference champs, and has them in the driver's seat.

The Pistons aren't the defending Eastern Conference champs. The Heat are.

[SirFozzie]

Amdaily should be suspended for an hour or so, just because he got proven wrong wrong WRONG.

One of the Top 5 playoff performances all time? (the only one I can think of off hand that tops it, is Bird (vs Nique), because that was a game 7.

[Neon_Chaos]

dola

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 16 (13 members and 3 guests)

[jbergey22]

LeBron James shouldn't have been passing. Part of greatness is understanding who your teammates are. You only make that pass if you have a three point specialist on the team and he gets open there, otherwise, you go to the freaking hoop yourself. He took 3 shots in the 4th quarter, went 5-15 overall and as the teams primary scorer put up a whopping 10 points in the biggest game of the year so far. Hopefully he learns to recognize situations better as he has so much potential but is still squandering a pretty big chunk of it. As for those here taking potshots at Barkley for his after game comments, it's pretty convenient for you to leave out Magic's identical comments when trying to defend Queen James lack of balls at big moments.

Missed 1 of 2 FT's, got caught in the air and made a pass to someone who shouldn't have the ball when it matters, and missed another potential game winner, all in the last 2 minutes. Pathetic 2nd half display and even worse last 2 minutes. This guy may be the most mentally weak superstar in quite a while.

Now spin this one.

LOL. What a freaking moronic set of statements. The reality of the situation is that the team has been in position to win both games and the "King" has been a jester. It would be one thing if LeBron was good at closing out games/hitting big shots but was struggling in the conference championship series. Then you could chalk it up totally to other issues such as team/coach/inexperience. Instead, we've got an otherwise fantastic player who never makes the game winning shot no matter what.

The horrible coach and mediocre surrounding talent didn't miss a free throw and a shot in the final two minutes tonight. They aren't the ones throwing passes all over the place late in the game. They aren't the ones who transform from aggressive stars to passive role players the more important the situation is. A bunch of turnovers and another poor shooting night for LeBron.

Let's see. The title of the thread, and the talking point of the intelligent posters here, is an observation about an individual trait in an otherwise very talented players game. LeBron sucks in the clutch. He's done nothing but feed that perception this year. His team went farther than some other star players teams by beating a Washington team that was missing it's two best players and a NJ team that is nothing special. His team is in the conference final of the clearly inferior conference and will be very lucky to win 1 game. No one denies that he has talent and the potential to become one the all time greats, but he is missing a key feature.

Gatorade made a nifty commercial with edited "what if" history that includes Jordan missing the shot over Ehlo. With LeBron, you wouldn't have to edit the video. A jumper at the end for the win means an automatic loss at this point. The addition of that part of his game, if he can do it, would elevate him to his current hype point of all-time great. Right now he's a very good player on a decent team in a bad conference where he doesn't have to make big shots due to the lack of quality competition. Until those big shots at the end go in, he's still not a truly great one.

Nobody here is saying he isn't a tremendously talented player with the chance to be an all-time great. What people with a reading comprehension level above that of a retarded emu are saying is that he is missing one feature to his game that would solidify him as more than just a potential all-time great. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Dr. J etc. all hit the big shot when it mattered most...LeBron has yet to do that. He may or may not develop that since it is more a mental than physical attribute. He's not lacking anything physical. If he matures to the point of mentally handling the end game, big shot pressure, then he will take the final step into elite status. Right now, he is simply a great player with one glaring flaw.

I'd take LeBron over anyone other than Wade or Kobe at this point if I was starting a franchise, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be smart enough to identify and try to fix his flaw.

Basketball fans get that. The GED crowd doesn't.

Change your mind HiFirevival?

[Neuqua]

Jordan was never this good. Jordan needed a lot of free throws to score 40, 50 points. James is not getting those calls just yet, he's finishing the play and hitting ridiculous jump shots with two defenders on him 25 feet out.

Oh god, lets not start on this..

[jbergey22]

Read the post after game 3 fuckwad?

Pick a story and stick to it fuckwad. You seen what you wrote, only an absolute fool changes their mind that quick.

[Neon_Chaos]

Hey hey guys, keep it civil now.

[RedKingGold]

No one is mentioning that Mike Brown also almost cost the Cavs the game by his idiotic use of the Cav's last timeout when it was completely unnecessary.

[stevew]

No one is mentioning that Mike Brown also almost cost the Cavs the game by his idiotic use of the Cav's last timeout when it was completely unnecessary.

Yeah, that's just vintage mike Brown.

[cmp]

In all seriousness, does Flip Saunders have a job in Detroit next year? How many legit double-teams were sent LeBron's way in the last 22 minutes of play? Just something you can't let happen in a game so big, and he made no adjustments at all.

If the Pistons can't come back and win this series, Flip is gone.

[Deattribution]

And how legitimate is your argument if you intentionally leave out the post that disproves the point you are trying to make asshat?

You shit all over the guy calling him the most mentally weak superstar ever, deal with the consequences and stop being a bitch about it.