Toddler's temper ousts family from plane

[miami_fan]

ORLANDO, Fla. - AirTran Airways on Tuesday defended its decision to remove a Massachusetts couple from a flight after their crying 3-year-old daughter refused to take her seat before takeoff.

AirTran officials said they followed Federal Aviation Administration rules that children age 2 and above must have their own seat and be wearing a seat belt upon takeoff.

"The flight was already delayed 15 minutes and in fairness to the other 112 passengers on the plane, the crew made an operational decision to remove the family," AirTran spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver said.

Julie and Gerry Kulesza, who were headed home to Boston on Jan. 14 from Fort Myers, said they just needed a little more time to calm their daughter, Elly.

"We weren't given an opportunity to hold her, console her or anything," Julie Kulesza said in a telephone interview Tuesday.

The Kuleszas said they told a flight attendant they had paid for their daughter's seat, but asked whether she could sit in her mother's lap. The request was denied.

She was removed because "she was climbing under the seat and hitting the parents and wouldn't get in her seat" during boarding, Graham-Weaver said.

The Orlando-based carrier reimbursed the family $595.80, the cost of the three tickets, and the Kuleszas flew home the next day.

They also were offered three roundtrip tickets anywhere the airline flies, Graham-Weaver said.

The father said his family would never fly AirTran again.

[DanGarion]

Good, serves them right for not controlling their child.

[Greyroofoo]

Huzzah!

[rowech]

Absolutely 100% the right decision.

[Butter]

That kid needed a good spanking. But then they would've arrested the parents for child abuse. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[BrianD]

The 3 extra round-trip tickets seemed unnecessary.

[sabotai]

The Orlando-based carrier reimbursed the family $595.80, the cost of the three tickets, and the Kuleszas flew home the next day.

They also were offered three roundtrip tickets anywhere the airline flies, Graham-Weaver said.

The father said his family would never fly AirTran again.

Sounds like the airline tried to accommodate them the best they could. They refunded their money and (I'm assuming) flew home for free. Also offered 3 free roundtrip tickets. All of this after they made an obvious correct decision (one I wish resturants would enforce). And the father responds in this way. No wonder his kid is a brat.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

The 3 extra round-trip tickets seemed unnecessary.

My thoughts, too. If I understand the article correctly, they get three free round-trip tickets because their child wouldn't behave? I see a rash of "misbehaving" children on AirTran flights.

[Subby]

WTF? How did they let the kid climb under the seats? If it was my kid I would have squeezed him until he passed out.

You guys do that, right? :)

[Honolulu_Blue]

While they may have lost 3 customers for life, I am pretty sure they significantly increased the loyalty of about 112 others.

Not a bad trade off. . .

[CamEdwards]

So they weren't out any money, they got three round trip tickets anywhere Air Trans flies, and they're still bitching because their child was disruptive? Holy crap.

On a related note, I now know what airline I'll be flying if I ever have to travel with my kids. It sounds like an airline that tries to do right by everyone.

[Toddzilla]

I've gone through a situation like this, so I can sympathize with both sides...

My 4-year-old daughter had Cerebral Palsy. When she gets upset, her inclination is to stiffen up like a board and stretch her legs out as far as they can go.

On a flight last year to Arizona for a family wedding, we purchased a seperate seat for her and brought her car-seat with us for safety. Unfortunately, that meant her legs - when straight - were right up against the back of the seat in front of her.

Prior to take-off, I explained to the guy in that seat that my daughter has CP and that during the flight she may kick his seat. It wouldn't be in play, rather it would be out of fear/anger/pain and we couldn't really control it. If it were to get bad, I offered the guy anything he wanted to get from the stewardess in therm of drinks, or I'd switch seats with him so I'd be the one getting bounced around. "No problem!" he said. "Don't worry about it" he said.

Well ,the plane takes off and my daughter starts to lose it. She's scared and the change in pressure is really hurting her head and ears. Buckled in her seat, he's crying pretty loud and kicking the seat in front of her. Well this guy just loses his temper, too. Yelling at us to make her stop, etc. I re-iterate my offer to switch seats, but he refuses. So what can I do? I told the guy "Listen, you're probably in your 40's, and my daughter is 3. She can't help the way she acts, but you can. Either let me help you or shut the hell up." He groused the entire flight, but didn't make to big of a scene. On the way back, we gave my daughter a big dose of cold medicine to clear up her head and make her drowsy, and we checked the car seat so her legs wouldn't reach the seat in front.

So what am I saying? Give kids and the parents of kids on airplanes some slack. I'm sure they don't want to be on that plane any more than you want to have them there, plus when the flight is over, they're still stuck with the kid.

The parents in *this* story? Asshats. Both of them. Good for the the airline to boot them off.

[Toddzilla]

So they weren't out any money, they got three round trip tickets anywhere Air Trans flies, and they're still bitching because their child was disruptive? Holy crap.

On a related note, I now know what airline I'll be flying if I ever have to travel with my kids. It sounds like an airline that tries to do right by everyone.No shit - I'm booking with Air Tran and I'm gonna make sure the little one pitches a World Championship level fit. Free roundtrippers? Aw hells yeah.

[Mustang]

They were on Good Morning America today.. GMA made Air Tran seem like the devil...

[Lathum]

As someone who used to travel alot I applaud the airlines descion. The mother claims they didn't have enough time to calm the child yet the flight was already delayed 15 minutes? How much time did she need. Serves the parents right, learn to control your child.

[Lathum]

dola- Todds story was the first thing that came to mind was perhaps the child is handicapt but it dosn't seem that way.

[Lathum]

They were on Good Morning America today.. GMA made Air Tran seem like the devil...

That doesn't surprise me but I think most rational people who have any travel expierience will side with Airtran

[molson]

It's amazing how so many parents think nothing about how their children make the rest of the world miserable. Whether it be misbehaving at a movie, on a airline, or at a restaurant, it's almost like they want to subject the rest of the world to the horrors they endure every day. (Not all parents, of course)

Edit: I would love to see these same parents' reaction if their precious child was injured as the result of their inability to control her.

[BrianD]

I've gone through a situation like this, so I can sympathize with both sides...

My 4-year-old daughter had Cerebral Palsy. When she gets upset, her inclination is to stiffen up like a board and stretch her legs out as far as they can go.

On a flight last year to Arizona for a family wedding, we purchased a seperate seat for her and brought her car-seat with us for safety. Unfortunately, that meant her legs - when straight - were right up against the back of the seat in front of her.

Prior to take-off, I explained to the guy in that seat that my daughter has CP and that during the flight she may kick his seat. It wouldn't be in play, rather it would be out of fear/anger/pain and we couldn't really control it. If it were to get bad, I offered the guy anything he wanted to get from the stewardess in therm of drinks, or I'd switch seats with him so I'd be the one getting bounced around. "No problem!" he said. "Don't worry about it" he said.

Well ,the plane takes off and my daughter starts to lose it. She's scared and the change in pressure is really hurting her head and ears. Buckled in her seat, he's crying pretty loud and kicking the seat in front of her. Well this guy just loses his temper, too. Yelling at us to make her stop, etc. I re-iterate my offer to switch seats, but he refuses. So what can I do? I told the guy "Listen, you're probably in your 40's, and my daughter is 3. She can't help the way she acts, but you can. Either let me help you or shut the hell up." He groused the entire flight, but didn't make to big of a scene. On the way back, we gave my daughter a big dose of cold medicine to clear up her head and make her drowsy, and we checked the car seat so her legs wouldn't reach the seat in front.

So what am I saying? Give kids and the parents of kids on airplanes some slack. I'm sure they don't want to be on that plane any more than you want to have them there, plus when the flight is over, they're still stuck with the kid.

The parents in *this* story? Asshats. Both of them. Good for the the airline to boot them off.


This story sounds like what more parents should do. You recognized that your kid might cause a disturbance and did everything you could to minimize that disturbance. If the guy isn't going to take your help then he can't really complain. It is the parents that are oblivious to the antics of their child that really bother me.

[molson]

plus when the flight is over, they're still stuck with the kid

This is the parent mindset that completely annoys me. When parents think, "they can deal with my kids for a few hours, I have to deal with them all day". Why is the latter my problem? I've chosen not to have kids, in part because I'm simply not up for that enormous responsibility.

Although, you did handle the situation you described 1000% better and with more consideration than most parents would have.

[Huckleberry]

The parents were asshats, no question, but a couple of observations.

1.) Spanking the kid would have made the situation worse, knucklehead.
2.) The story doesn't indicate that the 15 minutes the flight was already delayed was because of this situation. Just as likely the flight was already 15 minutes delayed because of weather or maintenance when this situation arose.

[Toddzilla]

It's pretty much my MO that whenever I've got to fly with the kid, I let everyone around us know that drinks are on me if the kid acts up.

[sachmo71]

while they fact that they are complaining about this even after getting free tickets is a toolish thing to do, i can imagine how mortifying it must have been if the child where truly out of control.

[BrianD]

It's pretty much my MO that whenever I've got to fly with the kid, I let everyone around us know that drinks are on me if the kid acts up.

How many people take you up on that offer? I would think that the fact that you are trying to control the situation would cause people to be much less annoyed.

[ctmason]

Having traveled quite a fair bit the past two years, I completely understand what the airline did and applaud their decision.

That said, I am certain that the parents were embarrassed and inconvenienced by the airline's move. The airline made restitution. They are a business, they have the right to refuse service. There's no issue here that I see.

I understand kids are kids though, and those that expect parents to immediately beat the ever-living shit out of their kid as soon as they cry on an airplane are the ones with the problem, not the kids and not the parents.

[ctmason]

How many people take you up on that offer? I would think that the fact that you are trying to control the situation would cause people to be much less annoyed.


Its perhaps my lessening faith in humanity coloring my perception, but my experience is that most people will react just as the man did in Todd's earlier story. Then when it hits the fan they explode anyway.

[Toddzilla]

How many people take you up on that offer? I would think that the fact that you are trying to control the situation would cause people to be much less annoyed.That's the point :) I'm basically saying "Yeah, I know flying with a screaming kid stinks, I'm basically helpless to do anything about it".

I bought a couple of Bloody Mary's for some old couple once...but I think they were just taking advantage of my free-drink program.

[BrianD]

That's the point :) I'm basically saying "Yeah, I know flying with a screaming kid stinks, I'm basically helpless to do anything about it".

I bought a couple of Bloody Mary's for some old couple once...but I think they were just taking advantage of my free-drink program.

That is really all us non-kid-having people want. Know what your kid is doing, understand the effects on people around the kid, do what you can to stop it. Parents seem to develop the ability to totally tune out their kids when they want to (probably out of a need to keep sane). The rest of us haven't developed that ability.

[larrymcg421]

The way I see it, this story could not be more positive for Airtran.

They're not going to inconvenience all the passengers because of a bratty kid, but you also see that they're willing to go well beyond to satisfy the family that was kicked off the flight. If anything, this would make me MORE likely to fly Airtran.

[Drake]

while they fact that they are complaining about this even after getting free tickets is a toolish thing to do, i can imagine how mortifying it must have been if the child where truly out of control.

As a parent, fully 50% of my time is spent being mortified. They should be used to it by now. ;)

[Lathum]

Here is a link to the ABC news story and a video interview with the parents. The parents are perhaps the biggest idiots I have ever seen. The father speculates that since the girl recently had ear surgery she felt pain on the trip down and didn't want to get back on the plane which is total BS. If that kid felt any kind of pain on that flight she would have thrown a fit.

ABC also did a horrible job with the interview not having an Airtran rep on ( they never indicated that Airtran may have refused). The kid was totaly antsy during the interview ( all of 5 minutes) and if anything it made me feel less compasion towards the family.

[Lathum]

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/toddlers-temper-ousts-family-from-plane/20070123133709990002?ncid=NWS00010000000001

[Galaril]

My first reaction si to agree with evryone else and say the airline was 100% right. But, the initial post at the beginning of the thread was apparently just one point of view. Below is another. I am not giving an excuses but the 3 year old just had an ear operation a few weeks earlier and , as it states below that may have been a factor in the child flipping out. I don't get the the feeling these were bad parents or a bad kid. Also, the mother was 4 1/2 months pregnant and the 15 minutes sounds liek a delay that was not caused by this incident. And the article certainly gives the impression of the airline staff coping attitude. I for one and sick and tired of the attitude I get form airlines myself sometimes. Anyways read the article below for like I said the otherside of the story.

"In her finer moments—mainly when she’s on land — 3-year-old Elly is an adorable and sweet-mannered child, a blue-eyed charmer who likes to dance and harbors a particular fondness for Thomas the Tank Engine.

“She’s a typical 3-year-old,” said her mother, Julie Kulesza of 7 Primrose St. in Worcester. “She has her moments like all 3-year-olds, but she’s not like one of those ‘Nanny 911’ children you see on TV.”


Elly’s dad, Gerald Kulesza, is a full-time EMT in Boston who also attends nursing school full time, and he did so well last semester that Elly’s mom surprised her husband with a trip to Florida to visit his parents, who live in Bonita Springs. So on Jan. 11, the family flew from Logan Airport to Fort Meyers on AirTran Airways, and even though it was Elly’s first plane trip she behaved like a dream and spent most of the flight coloring in her coloring book and watching movies on a portable DVD player.

“She was great,” her mom remembered. “When we made our descent into Florida we could see the water and she shouted, ‘Look, mommy, there’s the beach where we go swimming,’ and everyone laughed.”

Yes, it was a heartwarming moment for all concerned, and the trip was great, too. The family swam and went sightseeing, and on Jan 14 they drove back to the airport for the return trip home. They checked their luggage — a suitcase and a car seat. As they waited for their flight to be called, Elly contentedly munched on a bag of Cheetos and watched out the window as the planes took off and landed.

Then came … The Boarding. Suddenly and without warning, angelic little Elly morphed into every parents’ nightmare.

Her mom thinks it may have been because of the ear surgery Elly underwent earlier this month, and perhaps her memory of the discomfort and ear pressure she endured during the plane’s descent into Florida. For whatever reason, when they got on the plane, Elly started to cry and wouldn’t stop. Nor would she sit down — she plopped herself down on the floor in front of her seat and proceeded to throw a temper tantrum.

“I was trying to console her and the stewardess came over and said, ‘Did you buy that seat for her?’ remembers Ms. Kulesza, 31, who is four months pregnant. “I said yes, and she told me my daughter needs to sit in it. I told her I was trying.”

Moments later, an AirTran Airways employee armed with a walkie-talkie addressed Mr. Kulesza.

“Sir, you need to get her under control,” she said.

“We’re trying,” Mr. Kulesza noted.

The passengers, meanwhile, were quite understanding and one of them offered the toddler a lollipop, which she rejected. Then the walkie-talkie woman returned to the Kuleszas’ aisle and displayed the raw tact and diplomacy of Donald Trump.

“Sir, you need to get off the plane,” she announced.

“What?” a stunned Mr. Kulesza asked. “Are you serious?”

“Sir, you need to get off the plane now.”

They got off the plane, while their luggage and car seat flew on to Boston. In the terminal they were directed to an AirTran supervisor, who told the couple that the stewardess was uncomfortable “because you have an unruly child who struck a woman on board.”

Mr. Kulesza was incredulous. “That was her mother,” he explained. “She hit her on the arm. Lady, this is a 3-year-old child we’re talking about.”

“Sir, we don’t differentiate between 3 and 33,” the AirTran supervisor replied. Mr. Kulesza said the woman proceeded to lecture him about child discipline, and how she would never tolerate her children behaving in such a manner, at which point Mr. Kulesza said, “You really need to stop talking now.”

The couple were also told that, since they had been ejected from the plane, they were banned from flying with AirTran for 24 hours. So they were forced to return to Bonita Springs for the night, and Mr. Kulesza missed a 16-hour work shift, and the next day they returned to the airport and can surely be forgiven if they fed their daughter enough Children’s Benadryl to fell a stallion. I exaggerate, perhaps, but it’s certainly what I would have done. In any case, Elly slept through the return flight home.

The incident has sparked varied responses from those who heard the story. While many people — mostly parents — sympathize with the Kuleszas, others are less inclined. For example, when I related the tale to an unnamed colleague and asked if he had ever heard of an airline bouncing a child from a flight he said, “No, but I’m all for it. Couldn’t they have checked her with the baggage?”

This colleague, as it happens, has no kids.

AirTran, meanwhile, has apparently had a change of heart. After the airline received a phone call Thursday from yours truly, an AirTran customer service rep called the Kuleszas, apologized profusely for the incident and refunded them the $595 cost of their tickets.

“We do believe the situation could have been handled differently,” said AirTran spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver. “We will use this case as a means to train our agents on dealing with this type of situation on our flights … While there are FAA regulations that mandate all passengers have to be securely fastened in their seat belts before a plane can depart, we need to work with our customers in situations like this to help them — and that is what we will focus on.”

Ms. Kulesza is appreciative of the response, but believes she could have calmed her daughter down, if given the chance.

“It wasn’t like she had a bomb strapped to her waist,” she noted.

AirTran also extended another offer to the Kuleszas — free airline tickets to the destination of their choosing. The offer has been declined.

“I said I appreciated it, but I told them not to bother,” Ms. Kulesza said. “We won’t ever be flying with that airline again.”

[Telle]

As a parent of a toddler, I am in complete agreement with AirTran's actions.

[Lathum]

The problem I have is all the talk of what a great kid she is comes from her mother, grandmother, etc... I would love to hear a first hand account from a passenger on the plane. Plus I would be more inclined to cut the family a break if I knew information on the 15 minute delay and what caused it.

That being said I would be pissed if I missed a connecting flight because people couldn't get their kid under control.

[RendeR]

I think you could take either side in the arguement, until you stop and realize that the Airline doesn't owe these people a good time or any special accomodations.

If the child was unruly to the point of climbing under the seats and the parents weren't getting it under control to the staffs happiness then the parents ought to close their mouths and do as they're told. No excuses.

They can complain all they want but their child was causing a disruption for everyone else. I hope any airline I travel wil do the same.

and yes, I have a toddler.

[st.cronin]

I have a toddler.

I weep for the world.







;)

[Lathum]

If I had sat on the floor and refused to get in my seat when I was 3 my parents would have picked my ass up, deposited it in the seat, strapped me in and that would have been the end of it.

[Mustang]

Plus I would be more inclined to cut the family a break if I knew information on the 15 minute delay and what caused it.


If they were already delayed, I'm sure they didn't want to delay themselves further.

Regardless of whether or not the child was screaming, if the child wouldn't stay in the seat, it is a safety risk. I'd probably get bounced from the flight too. Really, how long do you wait to delay an entire plane?

[RendeR]

I weep for the world.







;)

Don't you dare insult my children.

Pick on me all you want, you leave my family out of it.




Besides, she's FAR better mannered than *I* am.

[st.cronin]

Don't you dare insult my children.

Pick on me all you want, you leave my family out of it.




Besides, she's FAR better mannered than *I* am.

Dude, I *was* picking on you. :D

[RendeR]

Dude, I *was* picking on you. :D


;)

[dawgfan]

The "other side" of the story article is hardly investigative journalism - it is obviously written strictly from the family's point of view. As such, I'm taking it with a grain of salt given the obvious motive for the family to make them look as innocent as possible and the airline and its employees as ungracious as possible.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the AirTran employees were more abrupt than they could've been, and it's possible that one of them did indeed lecture the father on parental responsibility (and if true, said employee should be disciplined). But the end result is something that I agree with - if the parents couldn't control the child and the child's behavior was disrupting the ability of that flight to continue, then bravo to the airline for having the guts to do something about it.

If AirTran is an airline option for me in the future, I will give them priority consideration for my business.

[Craptacular]

AirTran can suck the collective left nut of all Midwest Airlines passengers.

[Klinglerware]

If AirTran is an airline option for me in the future, I will give them priority consideration for my business.


Air Tran? No thank you!

AirTran Airways
AirTran Airways received an F rating for safety. Once under ValuJet the airline was rated by the FAA for being 13 times less safe than other lower cost U.S. airplanes. A high number of AirTran’s DC-9 jetliners have been involved in a large amount of serious aircraft accidents, leading their day to day safety operations to be in question. Since 1985 AirTran Airways has had 110 fatalities, 21 FAA incidents, 7 NTSB incidents, and 39 FAA violations/fines in 1997-2000.

http://www.aviationaccidentlawnews-ntsb.com/html/safetyreports.html

[dawgfan]

Air Tran? No thank you!



http://www.aviationaccidentlawnews-ntsb.com/html/safetyreports.html
OK, I stand corrected. But I do approve of their willingness to consider the feelings of all passengers on a flight and not just an isolated family.

[BrianD]

The "other side" of the story article is hardly investigative journalism - it is obviously written strictly from the family's point of view. As such, I'm taking it with a grain of salt given the obvious motive for the family to make them look as innocent as possible and the airline and its employees as ungracious as possible.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the AirTran employees were more abrupt than they could've been, and it's possible that one of them did indeed lecture the father on parental responsibility (and if true, said employee should be disciplined). But the end result is something that I agree with - if the parents couldn't control the child and the child's behavior was disrupting the ability of that flight to continue, then bravo to the airline for having the guts to do something about it.

If AirTran is an airline option for me in the future, I will give them priority consideration for my business.

That seemed to be quite the loaded article. She "behaved like a dream", "Angelic little Elly", quotes from mom and dad. "Perhaps she remembered the discomfort of the descent"...there must have been lots of discomfort while she was being cute and pointing out the beach where they were going to go swimming. Nice quote by the unnamed colleague who suggested she be checked with the luggage. I think this is basically an OpEd piece disguised as real journalism.

[larrymcg421]

Air Tran? No thank you!
http://www.aviationaccidentlawnews-ntsb.com/html/safetyreports.html

What a silly argument. If you click on the link, the information about all of those airlines is pretty scary. Many of them have far more violations/fatalities than Airtran. Plus they say it received an F rating. When did it receive this rating? It seems like the most recent data is from 1997-2000?

Also, the paragraph on Airtran is including fatalities/violations from the ValuJet days. Well Airtran did not merge with ValuJet until 1997, so it seems pretty silly to include stuff from before that as reflective on AirTran's safety.

[Mustang]

AirTran can suck the collective left nut of all Midwest Airlines passengers.

I second that sentiment.

[sterlingice]

Air Tran? No thank you!

http://www.aviationaccidentlawnews-ntsb.com/html/safetyreports.html

Um... I'm pretty sure they're not giving the whole story there, especially since AirTran was founded in the 90s. For those stats you were giving, you'd have to go back to include ValuJet who they merged with in the late 90s after the ValuJet accident in Florida. Back in the day, ValuJet flew a lot of older planes but nowadays, that's a lot different.

SI

[SuperGrover]

Sorry, it's not that hard to get your kids under control. She's 3 years old, not 3 months. With any type of discipline she would know that she can't in fact throw a tantrum and not have reprecussions.

Parents are all about coddling these days. It doesn't work. You don't neeed to beat your kids to have effective discipline. You do need to give them consequences for their actions. Even at three, they will understand.

This kid has no discipline whicih is why they couldn't console her. Now it's everyone's fault but the parents. Imagine how angry they would be if the situation were reversed, the airline waited, and they missed a connection because some brat couldn't be contained.

Control your kids. Not everyone thinks they're cute.

[SuperGrover]

One more thing, when did it become okay to hit your parents. Had I hit my mother when I was three, she would've beat the living Hell out of me.


I only got spanked once in my life but I knew my boundaries.

[Toddzilla]

Sorry, it's not that hard to get your kids under control.:rolleyes:

[Butter]

1.) Spanking the kid would have made the situation worse, knucklehead.

Not if you do it right. Although more than likely in this case, I would've spanked the kid after the fact for causing the scene in the first place... but first, as someone else said I would've gotten my kid in the seat, strapped them in, and been done with it. That's how it would've gone down. My 4 year old has lost it before. And usually if we're at home I just let him cry it out.... but if it is in public, then we either adjourn to the bathroom for a nice chat, or we can leave. My 6 year old still has control problems, but is much better about them now than he was 3 years ago.

It's never come to that, because he knows to calm down before we have to visit the bathroom. It's all about what works with your kids. My kids are good most of the time, but all kids push boundaries. In this case, whether the kid was remembering the pain of the initial flight in or not, they still needed to be in a seat... and delaying a flight for 15 minutes while somebody calms their kid down is excessive and was dealt with appropriately. If I couldn't control my child for that length of time, I would fully expect to be excused and asked to leave wherever I was.

[Subby]

Sorry, it's not that hard to get your kids under control.
Sorry, but this is a dumb blanket statement.

[molson]

Sorry, but this is a dumb blanket statement.

Maybe, but it's irrelevant. It's doesn't matter to me how difficult it is, if you can't control them, keep them the hell out of movie theaters, restaurants, and even planes except in extremely rare circumstances.

[Toddzilla]

Sorry, but this is a dumb blanket statement.

It's doesn't matter to me how difficult it is, if you can't control them, keep them the hell out of movie theaters, restaurants, and even planes except in extremely rare circumstances.True and True.

[Subby]

Maybe, but it's irrelevant. It's doesn't matter to me how difficult it is, if you can't control them, keep them the hell out of movie theaters, restaurants, and even planes except in extremely rare circumstances.
Unfortunately, there are some people who *don't* have kids that are so self-involved that even the slightest peep from a kid qualifies as the child being out of control. I guess as long as my kids are behaving to my satisfaction, I'll take them wherever I want. :)

[oykib]

Unfortunately, there are some people who *don't* have kids that are so self-involved that even the slightest peep from a kid qualifies as the child being out of control. I guess as long as my kids are behaving to my satisfaction, I'll take them wherever I want. :)

I think that you're missing the point. Your kids are ypur responsibility. I have no idea whether you keep your kids under control or not. But When someone goes to a movie or out for dinner or whatever, they didn'rt pay good money to be bothered by what you consider to be a reasonable amount of tantrum from your kids.

It wouldn't surprise me to see AirTran get an uptick in business from this story. All things being equal, I'd fly them over another bargain carrier if this were their normal policy. That goes any restaurants, cafes, or thetres that had such a policy too.

[DanGarion]

Well ,the plane takes off and my daughter starts to lose it. She's scared and the change in pressure is really hurting her head and ears. Buckled in her seat, he's crying pretty loud and kicking the seat in front of her. Well this guy just loses his temper, too. Yelling at us to make her stop, etc. I re-iterate my offer to switch seats, but he refuses. So what can I do? I told the guy "Listen, you're probably in your 40's, and my daughter is 3. She can't help the way she acts, but you can. Either let me help you or shut the hell up." He groused the entire flight, but didn't make to big of a scene. On the way back, we gave my daughter a big dose of cold medicine to clear up her head and make her drowsy, and we checked the car seat so her legs wouldn't reach the seat in front.


See this guy was just a plain ass. You did everything you could in regards to the problem and he just wanted to be a dick.

[Toddzilla]

Just so we're clear (a parent speaking to non-parents), the phrase "keeping you kid under control" does not equal "keeping your kid perfectly still and silent". Kids make noise. They talk, they laugh, they yell, they cry. It certainly is *not* appropriate for kids to scream and cry continuously in an environment where atmosphere is important (out to dinner, at the movies, in an airplane to a much lesser extent), but to expect children - be them babies, toddlers, or teenagers - to be silent is a complete misunderstanding and misconception on your part, and that is your problem to deal with, not the parents.

[Butter]

But When someone goes to a movie or out for dinner or whatever, they didn'rt pay good money to be bothered by what you consider to be a reasonable amount of tantrum from your kids.

When I'm paying good money for that same dinner, then no one else gets to fucking tell me what is a reasonable amount of noise from my child, so long as they are not being physically disruptive. Deal with it. There are lines that are crossed, but as others said, a kid who is making a bit of noise is not necessarily out of control just because there are people nearby who don't like kids.

However, in this case we are talking about a kid causing a physical disruption in others' lives. There is a large difference.

[Subby]

I think that you're missing the point. Your kids are ypur responsibility. I have no idea whether you keep your kids under control or not. But When someone goes to a movie or out for dinner or whatever, they didn'rt pay good money to be bothered by what you consider to be a reasonable amount of tantrum from your kids.
Oh they are MY responsibility? Thanks. That's probably where I fucked up.

[Mustang]

It took a few messages but, glad to see the thread devolved into the 'I have kids so you can't say anything' vs 'I don't have kids so control them' argument.

Nicely done...

[DanGarion]

You know what I get tired of? Parents that let their children run all around a restaurant (even if it's just around where they are seated). I also hate it when parents don't do anything about their children yelling, there is a time and a place for yelling and it's not when you are at the movies or out to dinner.

If a child is being disruptive, be it vocally or physically it is the parents responsibility to control them and to be extra sensitive to the others around them. This is the responsibility you take on by having children and taking them out, you have to be more aware as to how it affects others.

[Butter]

It took a few messages but, glad to see the thread devolved into ridiculous blanket statements about uncontrollable monster children.

Fix'd.

I think we all agree there are limits. I think the argument is who gets to set the limits. And for some people there is no middle ground.

[DanGarion]

Fix'd.

I think we all agree there are limits. I think the argument is who gets to set the limits. And for some people there is no middle ground.

The middle ground is a well behaved child. :)

[BrianD]

When I'm paying good money for that same dinner, then no one else gets to fucking tell me what is a reasonable amount of noise from my child, so long as they are not being physically disruptive. Deal with it. There are lines that are crossed, but as others said, a kid who is making a bit of noise is not necessarily out of control just because there are people nearby who don't like kids.

However, in this case we are talking about a kid causing a physical disruption in others' lives. There is a large difference.

I've often thought that restaurants should have a family section of the restaurant. Kids do make noise and parents shouldn't be prevented from going to the restaurant (assuming they make reasonable efforts with their kids), but even reasonable noise can be disturbing to people. Why not put all the families with kids in one section and the families without kids in another section? At least that would localize the noise and hopefully be a decent compromise.

[Butter]

The middle ground is a well behaved child. :)

As mentioned before, well behaved is in the eye of the beholder. A bit of noise that is reasonable to some is outrageous to others. For some there is no middle ground.

[molson]

When I'm paying good money for that same dinner, then no one else gets to fucking tell me what is a reasonable amount of noise from my child, so long as they are not being physically disruptive. Deal with it. There are lines that are crossed, but as others said, a kid who is making a bit of noise is not necessarily out of control just because there are people nearby who don't like kids.


There's a "bit of noise" and there's "no one else gets to fucking tell me what is a reasonable amount of noise from my child". Your latter comment is a little ridiculous, because courtesy is ALL about the other party, not your own interpretations of what is reasonable. If someone thinks its reasonable to park across 3 handicap spaces, they're still a jackass. I honestly think some parents are amused by watching the rest of deal with what they deal with all day.

Here are the lines, (just in my opinion), since people are talking about different things:
Restaurants: Everyone's talking and laughing, so obviously that's no big deal. I don't give a crap what a little kid or anyone else is doing unless it's volume is to the point I have trouble conversing myself.
Movies: If it's a G-rated kids movie, then there's leeway, but you have to expect that going in. But if you're taking your kids to a movie that the general population is attending, and they don't have the discipline to stay completely quiet, wait for the video.
Planes: I really think planes demand the most courtesy in terms of drugging your kid or taking the long drive instead. Some people need to work on planes, some people need to sleep, and everyone can hear what everyone else is doing. Talking at a reasonable volume is fine (and from my experiences, most kids are great on planes - either that or parents are politely drugging them or waiting until they're older to take the long vacation).
Public places: People really need to pay attention to where their kids are. If I have use to an ATM, and there's a random little kid playing with it, it shouldn't be my job to discipline him in getting him to move and figure out where his parents are (that happened yesterday).
Court: My favorite place - any peep and the bailiff whisks the kid and mother away.

I don't hate kids. But I personally would never have any until I was financially comfortable to the point where I could afford child care or have a stay-at-home parent. I am alarmed daily at the kinds of people are that reproducing quickly in our country.

[Drake]

I figure we were all children once, and as such, surely annoyed somebody. I'm willing to cut parents and kids some slack.

[Subby]

We were at TGI Fridays one time and one of my four year olds got up from the table because he had to go to the bathroom and he totally dropped his pants and started peeing right next to the booth!

Fortunately he did this quielty and did not disturb the surrounding casual dining patrons. Plus he is a little angel and has the cutest little bottom. Like two little bubbles!

[Drake]

Okay, Subby wasn't ever a kid. He emerged fully formed from the forehead of Zeus. He's that sexy.

[DanGarion]

As mentioned before, well behaved is in the eye of the beholder. A bit of noise that is reasonable to some is outrageous to others. For some there is no middle ground.

Think of what bothered you when you didn't have children and then times it by two. That's probably a good place to start.

A bit of noise is fine, but is that bit of noise the kid going. "MOM! MOM! LOOK AT THAT!", "MOM I' HUNGRY!", "MOMMY"

For 15 minutes? That disruptive.

[BrianD]

I figure we were all children once, and as such, surely annoyed somebody. I'm willing to cut parents and kids some slack.

Nah, parents earn their slack. If they make an effort and are willing to take their kids outside for a talk when they get really bad, I'll give them some slack. The parents who feel that they deserve a meal out and can take that time to not pay attention to their kids get no slack. Efforts need to be made on both sides.

[DanGarion]

We were at TGI Fridays one time and one of my four year olds got up from the table because he had to go to the bathroom and he totally dropped his pants and started peeing right next to the booth!

Fortunately he did this quielty and did not disturb the surrounding casual dining patrons. Plus he is a little angel and has the cutest little bottom. Like two little bubbles!
First problem was that you took your child to TGIFridays. ;)

[DanGarion]

Parents look at it this way. If there was a group sitting next to and they are being loud and obnoxious (such as cussing loudly and yelling). What are you going to do about it?

[DanGarion]

Nah, parents earn their slack. If they make an effort and are willing to take their kids outside for a talk when they get really bad, I'll give them some slack. The parents who feel that they deserve a meal out and can take that time to not pay attention to their kids get no slack. Efforts need to be made on both sides.

Agreed. It's the ones that let their children talk over the PG-13/R rated movie that the child shouldn't be watching in the first place. And the parents that let their children run around the theater without doing anything about it that get no slack.

[Butter]

There's a "bit of noise" and there's "no one else gets to fucking tell me what is a reasonable amount of noise from my child". Your latter comment is a little ridiculous, because courtesy is ALL about the other party, not your own interpretations of what is reasonable.

The previous statement I was referencing, however, said that people going out "didn't pay good money to be bothered" by a child. So, the inference I got was that the childless get to determine what is reasonable behavior for the child, instead of the parents. And, insofar as that statement is concerned, "no one else gets to fucking tell me what is a reasonable amount of noise from my child". I've never had a complaint, but on occasion my wife has been approached by people in grocery stores with suggestions about how to control our crying, fit-pitching child... to which her response has always been: fuck off (well, in more polite terms).

If you want to get into a discussion about a lack of civility in society, that's one thing... But it is certainly not confined to children's behavior, and it is certainly not confined to people being overall less tolerant of any perceived slights. They're both contributing factors.

[ISiddiqui]

Just so we're clear (a parent speaking to non-parents), the phrase "keeping you kid under control" does not equal "keeping your kid perfectly still and silent". Kids make noise. They talk, they laugh, they yell, they cry. It certainly is *not* appropriate for kids to scream and cry continuously in an environment where atmosphere is important (out to dinner, at the movies, in an airplane to a much lesser extent), but to expect children - be them babies, toddlers, or teenagers - to be silent is a complete misunderstanding and misconception on your part, and that is your problem to deal with, not the parents.

Aside from the fact that in a non-children's movie, if you kid is talking, laughing, yelling, or crying, even if it isn't "continuously", you are completely ruining the movie experience for everyone else in the theater as much as some guy who wants to talk during the movie is.

[DanGarion]

Aside from the fact that in a non-children's movie, if you kid is talking, laughing, yelling, or crying, even if it isn't "continuously", you are completely ruining the movie experience for everyone else in the theater as much as some guy who wants to talk during the movie is.
Unfortunately there is a certain amount of parents that don't think there is such a movie. They think their children should go with them to see, "The Hitcher" with a side of "Wedding Crashers". And then they wonder why Johnny misbehaves.

[Subby]

Sin City is my six year old's favorite movie. The cartoon-style violence and clever dialogue remind him of Tom and Jerry. When we saw it in the theater together he kept screaming for Rosario Dawson's character to get killed because she had such a frightening hair style. A couple of people yelled at him to shut up, but his yelling was really cute in a Verne Troyer sort of way that I just threw my hands up in the air and chuckled!

[DanGarion]

Sin City is my six year old's favorite movie. The cartoon-style violence and clever dialogue remind him of Tom and Jerry. When we saw it in the theater together he kept screaming for Rosario Dawson's character to get killed because she had such a frightening hair style. A couple of people yelled at him to shut up, but his yelling was really cute in a Verne Troyer sort of way that I just threw my hands up in the air and chuckled!
Haha. comedy gold.

[ISiddiqui]

Depends on your meaning of comedy... I guess. If I paid to see the movie, I wouldn't have found it funny.

[DanGarion]

Depends on your meaning of comedy... I guess. If I paid to see the movie, I wouldn't have found it funny.
I'm assuming he was joking. If he's not then it's not funny...

[ISiddiqui]

I'm lost when there is a lack of smilies ;).

[panerd]

Can we come to an agreement on this one then? I will give you and your family some slack at restaurants like Applebee's (etc.) because kids will be kids and I do understand a little bit about how kids behave. And then when you choose to take your kids to a bar to eat and the adults around you are rowdy you can give us some slack with occasional cussing and debauchery because you know you are with your 6 year olds eating at a fucking bar.

[Subby]

Depends on your meaning of comedy... I guess. If I paid to see the movie, I wouldn't have found it funny.
I guess you had to be there, then - because he is really, really cute (like Danny Pintauro in his heyday cute) - so you see this cute kid screaming at the screen and pleading for violence - I don't know - I guess it just struck me as completely hilarious.

[ISiddiqui]

We should have a scared smilie... oh, and as hilarious as it may have been, I wouldn't have minded it in a restaurant like a Fridays or something, it isn't so much in a movie theater, especially with the cost of tickets these days.

[rkmsuf]

lol at dudes getting upset because they took their date to Fridays and families were there with loud kids.

[ISiddiqui]

No one should be upset if they went to Fridays and some kids were loud. It's Fridays for fuck's sake! Now if the kid was constantly screaming... that's another issue, as I'm sure the resulting headache wouldn't be welcomed by anyone. But just loud kids... pfft. It's a Fridays for crying out loud.

[Butter]

Can we come to an agreement on this one then? I will give you and your family some slack at restaurants like Applebee's (etc.) because kids will be kids and I do understand a little bit about how kids behave. And then when you choose to take your kids to a bar to eat and the adults around you are rowdy you can give us some slack with occasional cussing and debauchery because you know you are with your 6 year olds eating at a fucking bar.

Is it the "bar" at that same Applebee's?

[Passacaglia]

Can we come to an agreement on this one then? I will give you and your family some slack at restaurants like Applebee's (etc.) because kids will be kids and I do understand a little bit about how kids behave. And then when you choose to take your kids to a bar to eat and the adults around you are rowdy you can give us some slack with occasional cussing and debauchery because you know you are with your 6 year olds eating at a fucking bar.

Forgetting about bars, and moving on to restaurants, doesn't this just make noise in general louder and louder? I moved to Chicago recently, and it feels like every time I go to a nice restaurant, everyone is just way too loud. I blame yuppies most, but kids are to blame as well. Or at least families -- come to think of it, the last time I remember was at a Trattoria, and there was a family (or two) at a table near us, and the parents were by far more annoying than the kids.

[panerd]

Is it the "bar" at that same Applebee's?


I am talking actual bars. They have tables to sit at and eat but after 8:00 those same tables will be filled with people drinking alcohol. This is obviously from personal experience. There is a Missouri home football game during the day, afterwards the fans go to actual bars to celebrate (not McDonalds, not even Fridays, real bars), and then people with their kids get upset when it is rowdy and loud.

[heybrad]

If you want to get into a discussion about a lack of civility in society, that's one thing...
That's what keeps running through my mind when reading this thread. Everyone is so bent out of shape on how a child might disrupt their movie or restaurant experience. The following scenario is far more likely and highly annoying.

*sitting in a restaurant or movie theater quiety*
*cell phone rings... answered by stupid fuck*
"JOHNSON HERE.... pause.... YEA, I'M IN A RESTAURANT, CAN'T TALK."
"WHAT, YOU'RE BREAKING UP"

[Huckleberry]

In this case, whether the kid was remembering the pain of the initial flight in or not, they still needed to be in a seat... and delaying a flight for 15 minutes while somebody calms their kid down is excessive and was dealt with appropriately.

Once again absolutely nowhere does it say that the 15 minute delay was because of the child.

[rkmsuf]

I am talking actual bars. They have tables to sit at and eat but after 8:00 those same tables will be filled with people drinking alcohol. This is obviously from personal experience. There is a Missouri home football game during the day, afterwards the fans go to actual bars to celebrate (not McDonalds, not even Fridays, real bars), and then people with their kids get upset when it is rowdy and loud.

ah, so what? I'm assuming they leave. Unless a couple of crooked stares derail the party train.

After 8:00 these things normally take care of themselves.

[DanGarion]

Once again absolutely nowhere does it say that the 15 minute delay was because of the child.

They already had 15 minutes to shut the kid up. Regardless if it was because of them.

[rkmsuf]

They already had 15 minutes to shut the kid up. Regardless if it was because of them.

If it has gone on since boarding and for 15 minutes since with little visable hope I think a resonable person would beging to think this may in fact be a problem for the flight.

That's just me. Some people would sit there for a couple hours hoping the child tired themself out. I think it's safe to assume the airline acted in good faith in trying to do what was best for the safe and timely completion of this flight.

[panerd]

ah, so what? I'm assuming they leave. Unless a couple of crooked stares derail the party train.

After 8:00 these things normally take care of themselves.

No they don't leave. They complain to the manager.

[Subby]

One time we were at an Applebees and there was a long wait for a table, so all six of us sat at the bar to have our dinner. I was drinking Bud Dry and hitting on the bartender mainly because my kids were annoying the shit out of me and my wife kept bugging me to "step in" and do something.

Whatever.

Anyway, one of my four year olds grabbed my beer when I wasn't looking and just started drinking it. I guess he thought it was his juice or something. I was like - what the fuck, elroy, does this look like your sippy cup? Anyway, the manager comes over and starts yelling at me for letting my kid drink my beer. All up in my grill. So we are going at it and then my kid lets out this monster burp that totally catches everyone off guard. Well it was so cute that manager just had to laugh and he ended up comping us dessert. After that everyone kept coming over and telling me how preccocious my kids were!

[rkmsuf]

No they don't leave. They complain to the manager.

that's some balls

particularly if this is a consistent thing. what did it happen once that someone complained?

If it happens all the time this can't be a "bar" in the sense I am picturing it.

[Butter]

At that point, the manager has to decide what is best for the restaurant. Just like AirTran decided what was best for their flight. Is it best to accommodate the loud, raucous group of adults who just showed up or to accommodate the family who is bothered by the loud, raucous group?

Maybe the loud, raucous group should learn to shut the hell up so the rest of the patrons can enjoy their meal...

[rkmsuf]

At that point, the manager has to decide what is best for the restaurant. Just like AirTran decided what was best for their flight. Is it best to accommodate the loud, raucous group of adults who just showed up or to accommodate the family who is bothered by the loud, raucous group?

Maybe the loud, raucous group should learn to shut the hell up so the rest of the patrons can enjoy their meal...

which is why I wonder the nature of this place to begin with

[panerd]

that's some balls

particularly if this is a consistent thing. what did it happen once that someone complained?

If it happens all the time this can't be a "bar" in the sense I am picturing it.

The manager didn't do anything. He came over and told us about the complaint but that was about it. What is a Columbia, Missouri bar manager going to do? Kick out 90% of the alumni base that will be spending $100's of dollars or the guy whose wife and kids are going to split a chicken strips and a sprite.

My more general point is that there are some childless people who are completely out of touch with how children behave just like there are some people with kids who are completly out of touch with the fact that not every place is a good place to take their kid.

[rkmsuf]

My more general point is that there are some childless people who are completely out of touch with how children behave just like there are some people with kids who are completly out of touch with the fact that not eveyplace is a good place to take their kid.

quoted for truth

[DanGarion]

The manager didn't do anything. He came over and told us about the complaint but that was about it. What is a Columbia, Missouri bar manager going to do? Kick out 90% of the alumni base that will be spending $100's of dollars or the guy whose wife and kids are going to split a chicken strips and a spirte.

My more general point is that there are some childless people who are completely out of touch with how children behave just like there are some people with kids who are completly out of touch with the fact that not every place is a good place to take their kid.
And that is the point I was trying to make.

[molson]

Once again absolutely nowhere does it say that the 15 minute delay was because of the child.

How can a kid walking under seats and refusing to sit down NOT delay a flight? They're not going to take off until he's sitting and belted in. How long are they supossed to wait?

[flere-imsaho]

Once again absolutely nowhere does it say that the 15 minute delay was because of the child.

Yes it does. Anyone over the age of 2 has to be belted in before the plane can push away from the gate. The article's pretty clear on this point. The kid didn't want to be belted in, and the parents weren't belting him in.

[Klinglerware]

It took a few messages but, glad to see the thread devolved into the 'I have kids so you can't say anything' vs 'I don't have kids so control them' argument.

Nicely done...

Concur. Now, if we can only bring in the requisite tipping discussion (a slight possibility based on the direction of the thread), or racial profiling (less of a possibility), then we'll have a real FOFC classic on our hands...

Again, keep up the good work!

[Huckleberry]

They already had 15 minutes to shut the kid up. Regardless if it was because of them.

If it says somewhere that the 15 minute delay happened after boarding but before takeoff I didn't see it.

How can a kid walking under seats and refusing to sit down NOT delay a flight? They're not going to take off until he's sitting and belted in. How long are they supossed to wait?

An entire episode like the one described can take place in one minute.

The answer that AirTran was reasonable to remove the family is correct. Not sure why some of you find it necessary to make stuff up or embellish the story in order to support that argument.

[Huckleberry]

Yes it does. Anyone over the age of 2 has to be belted in before the plane can push away from the gate. The article's pretty clear on this point. The kid didn't want to be belted in, and the parents weren't belting him in.

No, it doesn't. It says this

"The flight was already delayed 15 minutes and in fairness to the other 112 passengers on the plane, the crew made an operational decision to remove the family," AirTran spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver said.

Ms. Graham-Weaver is a wise woman that makes a good point. But she didn't say the 15 minutes was becauase of the child situation. It's completely possible but it is not stated. It could have been delayed 15 minutes because of maintenance and the crew decided to remove the family after 45 seconds because the passengers were already upset by the 15 minutes. Which would be fine.

That is all.

[flere-imsaho]

You're right, the article doesn't say the 15-minute delay was due to the kid, specifically. Good catch.

Ping Dutch, I think.

[DanGarion]

No, it doesn't. It says this



Ms. Graham-Weaver is a wise woman that makes a good point. But she didn't say the 15 minutes was becauase of the child situation. It's completely possible but it is not stated. It could have been delayed 15 minutes because of maintenance and the crew decided to remove the family after 45 seconds because the passengers were already upset by the 15 minutes. Which would be fine.

That is all.
Yes but I still stand by my response that regardless if it was caused by the child, they still have 15 minutes of delay that the parents could have used to strap their "angel" in.

[Telle]

Yes but I still stand by my response that regardless if it was caused by the child, they still have 15 minutes of delay that the parents could have used to strap their "angel" in.

One of the articles stated that she didn't start throwing a fit until they were boarding. And there's no mention of whether that 15 minute delay happened before or after boarding.

[ctmason]

I'm told that my parents intentionally did not take me or my brother out to restaurants until he was 12 and I was 8. My memory seems to confirm that. We may have gone to the occassional take out or fast food to grab something but I don't recall sitting down in a restaurant before that point, and certainly nowhere nicer than Shoney's or Applebee's until I was at least 15 or 16.

Maybe that's why it took me so long to learn which fork to use.

[Lathum]

I've often thought that restaurants should have a family section of the restaurant. Kids do make noise and parents shouldn't be prevented from going to the restaurant (assuming they make reasonable efforts with their kids), but even reasonable noise can be disturbing to people. Why not put all the families with kids in one section and the families without kids in another section? At least that would localize the noise and hopefully be a decent compromise.

while it is a good concept it would never work

[Lathum]

dola-
I have worked for TGI Fridays for 11 years most as a bartender and corporate trainer. My opinion of families in the bar is enter at your own risk.
It doesn't matter if it is Joe's Lounge or Fridays, a bar is a bar. Fridays actually started as a singles bar and while it has evolved the bar remains a focal point of the restuarant and alot of Fridays have a 65-35 food to bar split which is very high. anyway, my point is that there is ample waiting space not in the bar area so if you choose to wait in the bar or eat in the bar you take the atmosphere with it.

[Subby]

Corporate Trainer Says TGI Fridays "Not Family Friendly"

(CNN) - An unnamed corporate trainer for the casual dining chain TGI Fridays said today that families should "enter at [their] own risk."

"It doesn't matter if it is Joe's Lounge or Fridays, a bar is a bar. Fridays actually started as a singles bar and while it has evolved the bar remains a focal point of the restuarant and alot of Fridays have a 65-35 food to bar split which is very high."

When asked to clarify his statement, the trainer said, "there is ample waiting space not in the bar area so if you choose to wait in the bar or eat in the bar you take the atmosphere with it."

Corporate headquarters was not available for comment.

[rkmsuf]

lol

[wade moore]

awesome.

[Lathum]

lmao

[lordscarlet]

I'm told that my parents intentionally did not take me or my brother out to restaurants until he was 12 and I was 8. My memory seems to confirm that. We may have gone to the occassional take out or fast food to grab something but I don't recall sitting down in a restaurant before that point, and certainly nowhere nicer than Shoney's or Applebee's until I was at least 15 or 16.

Maybe that's why it took me so long to learn which fork to use.

If Wade and I were throwing a fit our mom would take us to the grocery store because we were always quiet in public. I don't know what is wrong with us.

[NoMyths]

Corporate Trainer Says TGI Fridays "Not Family Friendly"

(CNN) - An unnamed corporate trainer for the casual dining chain TGI Fridays said today that families should "enter at [their] own risk."

"It doesn't matter if it is Joe's Lounge or Fridays, a bar is a bar. Fridays actually started as a singles bar and while it has evolved the bar remains a focal point of the restuarant and alot of Fridays have a 65-35 food to bar split which is very high."

When asked to clarify his statement, the trainer said, "there is ample waiting space not in the bar area so if you choose to wait in the bar or eat in the bar you take the atmosphere with it."

Corporate headquarters was not available for comment.

hahahahaha

[ISiddiqui]

That's brilliant :D.

[BrianD]

while it is a good concept it would never work

Care to elaborate?

[DanGarion]

dola-
I have worked for TGI Fridays for 11 years most as a bartender and corporate trainer. My opinion of families in the bar is enter at your own risk.
It doesn't matter if it is Joe's Lounge or Fridays, a bar is a bar. Fridays actually started as a singles bar and while it has evolved the bar remains a focal point of the restuarant and alot of Fridays have a 65-35 food to bar split which is very high. anyway, my point is that there is ample waiting space not in the bar area so if you choose to wait in the bar or eat in the bar you take the atmosphere with it.

Plain and simple a BAR is not a place to be taking a child. Children should be no where near a bar.

[Butter]

What about the seating areas that are near the bar?

[rkmsuf]

Plain and simple a BAR is not a place to be taking a child. Children should be no where near a bar.

Fridays is not a bar in the traditional sense. It's a restaurant that has a bar that does a good amount of business. Without the restaurant part there is no flair and no Fridays.

Same way Applebees, Chili's and Uno's are "bars".

[DanGarion]

What about the seating areas that are near the bar?

Most places have a defined "bar" area. Where a wall or partition separates the "restaurant" from the "bar". I don't think children should be in that area. And for those parents that complain that it's unfair that they can't wait in the bar to be seated with their children, this is my response. It was your choice to have children, unfortunately there are things that you have to give up in order to be a parent. Such as going out late, catching R rated movies, and hanging out in a bar. If you want to do these things get a sitter. These are adult things, not things you should be taking your children out to do. And being a responsible parent is making these types of scarifies for the well being of your child.

[DanGarion]

Fridays is not a bar in the traditional sense. It's a restaurant that has a bar that does a good amount of business. Without the restaurant part there is no flair and no Fridays.

Same way Applebees, Chili's and Uno's are "bars".
Fridays has a defined "bar" area. This area is partitioned from the "restaurant" area. If you enter your local establishment you will easily notice this area as it has a bar and is surrounded normally by higher tables and bar stools.

[rkmsuf]

Fridays has a defined "bar" area. This area is partitioned from the "restaurant" area. If you enter your local establishment you will easily notice this area as it has a bar and is surrounded normally by higher tables and bar stools.

right, like most places like that. applebee's is in the middle.

I guess my point in places like those is that at least where I am it's 95% about the restaurant and 5% about the bar. Not many people cram in these places to stand around and get shitfaced and otherwise provide questionable behavior. Most people there eat at the bar or have a couple beers with a buddy or date and read the paper or shoot the shit. There's no smoking anywhere.

At Applebees there are high tables all around the bar. I have no problem with the family sitting there and we are 15 feet from the bar. Of course we aren't there other than between 5-7 pm so I can't speak for the 8-11 pm hour but I'm guessing things aren't rip roaring in there.

I guess it all depends on the mix of people. If it was a college town maybe I'd feel differently. Or if it was more a sports bar/restaurant.

[Butter]

And for those parents that complain that it's unfair that they can't wait in the bar to be seated with their children, this is my response. It was your choice to have children, unfortunately there are things that you have to give up in order to be a parent. Such as going out late, catching R rated movies, and hanging out in a bar. If you want to do these things get a sitter. These are adult things, not things you should be taking your children out to do. And being a responsible parent is making these types of scarifies for the well being of your child.

I'm sure the parents of the world appreciate you giving them such an upbraiding, and they tell me they will try to stay out of your hair in the future and they will try to continue to make scarifies whenever possible so that their child can live a clean, healthy and danger free life.

[Klinglerware]

Such as going out late, catching R rated movies, and hanging out in a bar. If you want to do these things get a sitter. These are adult things, not things you should be taking your children out to do. And being a responsible parent is making these types of scarifies for the well being of your child.

How is sitting in the bar section while waiting for a restaurant table to open up inimical to the interests of the child? Unless you are feeding the little urchins alcohol, I don't see much of a problem.

I think that you are black-and-whiting the issue a bit too much here. The appropriateness of a child's presence at anything is, I think, dependent on the situation, cultural norms, and the temperament/cognitive abilities of the child. Every kid is different, my parents took me on long-haul flights since I was six. To this day, I am grateful that I got a chance to see the world at such a young age--I think that my outlook on the world was shaped by these experiences. I do understand, on the other hand, that not every kid will react to long haul travel in the same way. But the point being, it's not always a black and white issue.

[DanGarion]

I'm not trying to sound like I hate kids. I love kids, in fact I take my niece and nephews out a lot, but I also make sure they are not disrupting other people. Because it's my responsibility to do so, and it's what I would expect people to do with their children.

[Lathum]

Care to elaborate?

Sure. Why I think your idea is a good one it could never work.

Lets say there is a restaurant with a "family only area" What happens when that area gets full and the other area's of the reataurant aren't. Then people with children would have to wait while there are open tables available. I can tell you 100% people would be VERY angry. Nothing angers people more in a restaurant then having to wait to be seated when there are open tables.

Likewise, lets say the "normal" area is full, would diners who don't have children be allowed to sit in the "family" area? Either way they would end up getting mixed and it wouldn't work.

I'm not being critical of your idea, it's just that it wouldn't work.

[rkmsuf]

Sure. Why I think your idea is a good one it could never work.

Lets say there is a restaurant with a "family only area" What happens when that area gets full and the other area's of the reataurant aren't. Then people with children would have to wait while there are open tables available. I can tell you 100% people would be VERY angry. Nothing angers people more in a restaurant then having to wait to be seated when there are open tables.

Likewise, lets say the "normal" area is full, would diners who don't have children be allowed to sit in the "family" area? Either way they would end up getting mixed and it wouldn't work.

I'm not being critical of your idea, it's just that it wouldn't work.

there should be an old people section too. they can really be pains in the asses sometimes.

[BrianD]

Sure. Why I think your idea is a good one it could never work.

Lets say there is a restaurant with a "family only area" What happens when that area gets full and the other area's of the reataurant aren't. Then people with children would have to wait while there are open tables available. I can tell you 100% people would be VERY angry. Nothing angers people more in a restaurant then having to wait to be seated when there are open tables.

Likewise, lets say the "normal" area is full, would diners who don't have children be allowed to sit in the "family" area? Either way they would end up getting mixed and it wouldn't work.

I'm not being critical of your idea, it's just that it wouldn't work.

I don't really see it as being any different than a smoking section. Non-smokers can sit in the smoking section but they have to deal with the smoke. Smokers can't take their cigarettes into the non-smoking section. The only real difference is that smokers can choose to give up smoking for the course of the meal and sit in the non-smoking section while parents don't really have the choice of giving up their kids for the course of the meal. Success would depend on restaurants doing their market research to provide appropriate levels of seating in each section, and probably choosing to give up some family business to get more non-family business.

[rkmsuf]

I don't really see it as being any different than a smoking section. Non-smokers can sit in the smoking section but they have to deal with the smoke. Smokers can't take their cigarettes into the non-smoking section. The only real difference is that smokers can choose to give up smoking for the course of the meal and sit in the non-smoking section while parents don't really have the choice of giving up their kids for the course of the meal. Success would depend on restaurants doing their market research to provide appropriate levels of seating in each section, and probably choosing to give up some family business to get more non-family business.

That makes no sense at all. I'd love to see you market this idea.

[BrianD]

That makes no sense at all. I'd love to see you market this idea.

You don't think people without kids would choose to go to a restaurant (all other factors being roughly equal) with a separate "family section"?

[Mustang]

there should be an old people section too. they can really be pains in the asses sometimes.

I see you have met my mother...

[rkmsuf]

You don't think people without kids would choose to go to a restaurant (all other factors being roughly equal) with a separate "family section"?

I think some would but I think those people are in the distinct minortiy.

I mean we are talking restaruants here. Not a singles scene and not upscale dining. Run of the mill casual dining I mean. If you are continually bothered everywhere you go by the precense of children or families I think you have deeper issues than finding a restaurant with a familty section. Seems life would really be a struggle for you the majority of time given families are everywhere.

[Butter]

Ksmurf almost wrote a paragraph, somebody get him some tranquilizers.

[rkmsuf]

Ksmurf almost wrote a paragraph, somebody get him some tranquilizers.

spent, I am.

[BrianD]

I think some would but I think those people are in the distinct minortiy.

I mean we are talking restaruants here. Not a singles scene and not upscale dining. Run of the mill casual dining I mean. If you are continually bothered everywhere you go by the precense of children or families I think you have deeper issues than finding a restaurant with a familty section. Seems life would really be a struggle for you the majority of time given families are everywhere.

I am not continually bothered by the presence of of children or families, but I am occasionally bothered by them. If I was given the choice of a family section or a non-family section I would happily choose the non-family section just to avoid the small possibility of being annoyed by children (and understanding that I get no protection from annoying adults).

I basically think that with more people getting married later in life and not having children, this could be a demographic that may be worth looking at and possibly catering to. I haven't personally done the market research to know if there is any value here, but I could see where the research would be worth doing.

[wade moore]

Ksmurf almost wrote a paragraph, somebody get him some tranquilizers.

This was my first thought in reading the response as well.

Even more shocking when I realized it wasn't some elaborate joke, but a really good post ;).

[rkmsuf]

I am not continually bothered by the presence of of children or families, but I am occasionally bothered by them. If I was given the choice of a family section or a non-family section I would happily choose the non-family section just to avoid the small possibility of being annoyed by children (and understanding that I get no protection from annoying adults).

I basically think that with more people getting married later in life and not having children, this could be a demographic that may be worth looking at and possibly catering to. I haven't personally done the market research to know if there is any value here, but I could see where the research would be worth doing.

Maybe but I'd guess that market is satified with a more upscale restaurant. In other words, older married couples or ones without kids probably aren't going to Fridays on a regular basis to begin with.

I guess I'm not sure overall where you want to draw the line. Everyone is occasionally bothered by something. I have kids and am occasionally bothered by other kids. And not at restaurants. Should say Supercuts have a familty and non-familty section because kids might be running around? How about church? I hate when kids are talking during the homily. Maybe the car wash. This little kid sprayed me one day...man was I mad.

I see where you are coming from but can't see the whole concept put into much practice.

[rkmsuf]

Even more shocking when I realized it wasn't some elaborate joke, but a really good post ;).

I was as shocked as you.

[heybrad]

I'm with rksmurf on this one. Make sure your restaurant also has a cell phone section, smoking section, loud talker section and a BO section.

[wade moore]

I am not continually bothered by the presence of of children or families, but I am occasionally bothered by them. If I was given the choice of a family section or a non-family section I would happily choose the non-family section just to avoid the small possibility of being annoyed by children (and understanding that I get no protection from annoying adults).

I basically think that with more people getting married later in life and not having children, this could be a demographic that may be worth looking at and possibly catering to. I haven't personally done the market research to know if there is any value here, but I could see where the research would be worth doing.

I think this demographic is served simply by restaurants that do not cater towards families.

For instance, I expect a different environment when I go to Hooters than when I go to Outback than when I go to Ruth Kris (sp?) than when I go to Chuckie Cheese.

I think that those of us without children should have a feel for what restaurants (and times of day) you are more likely to find an atmosphere that is bothersome to you.

For instance, for me and my fiance, only children that are allowed to basically scream their heads off and wander around the restaurant unsupervised bother us. I don't find that too often anywhere, but I know that if I go to Hooters at noon on Saturday that I can expect the likelihood to be much higher than when I go to the local Japanese Steakhouse at 6:00 on Thursday night.

[wade moore]

I'm with rksmurf on this one. Make sure your restaurant also has a cell phone section, smoking section, loud talker section and a BO section.

How about the "no eating alone" section? That's just creepy.

[DanGarion]

I guess I'm not sure overall where you want to draw the line. Everyone is occasionally bothered by something. I have kids and am occasionally bothered by other kids. And not at restaurants. Should say Supercuts have a familty and non-familty section because kids might be running around? How about church? I hate when kids are talking during the homily. Maybe the car wash. This little kid sprayed me one day...man was I mad.


Many churches here do have a noisy child section in the back behind glass.

[rkmsuf]

I think this demographic is served simply by restaurants that do not cater towards families.

For instance, I expect a different environment when I go to Hooters than when I go to Outback than when I go to Ruth Kris (sp?) than when I go to Chuckie Cheese.

I think that those of us without children should have a feel for what restaurants (and times of day) you are more likely to find an atmosphere that is bothersome to you.

For instance, for me and my fiance, only children that are allowed to basically scream their heads off and wander around the restaurant unsupervised bother us. I don't find that too often anywhere, but I know that if I go to Hooters at noon on Saturday that I can expect the likelihood to be much higher than when I go to the local Japanese Steakhouse at 6:00 on Thursday night.

lol, people take their kids to Hooters? kewl. mah boys with looooooove it!

[rkmsuf]

Many churches here do have a noisy child section in the back behind glass.

right but that's by choice

you don't get herded into that area

[DanGarion]

lol, people take their kids to Hooters? kewl. mah boys with looooooove it!

One of our friends yearly family Christmas photo they send is a picture of their son with the girls at the local Hooters (since he was an infant).

[Lathum]

I don't really see it as being any different than a smoking section. Non-smokers can sit in the smoking section but they have to deal with the smoke. Smokers can't take their cigarettes into the non-smoking section. The only real difference is that smokers can choose to give up smoking for the course of the meal and sit in the non-smoking section while parents don't really have the choice of giving up their kids for the course of the meal. Success would depend on restaurants doing their market research to provide appropriate levels of seating in each section, and probably choosing to give up some family business to get more non-family business.

Well you basicly answered your own question. Most people will choose to sit in the non smoking section even if they are smokers rather then wait 30-45 minutes. People with children would not have that option.

The problem is that word of mouth is the most powetfull form of advertising in the restaurant industry.

This is a fact, every angry customer tells 10 other people on average when they have a bad expierience. Every satisfied customer tells 1. So piss off one family and they tell 10 others and before you know it you are out of buisness.

[DanGarion]

right but that's by choice

you don't get herded into that area

I've seen requests made if a baby is crying for them to go back there. It's not like they are putting a gun to their head or something but still requests.

[rkmsuf]

One of our friends yearly family Christmas photo they send is a picture of their son with the girls at the local Hooters (since he was an infant).

wow. kids gonna be a playa.

[DanGarion]

For instance, for me and my fiance, only children that are allowed to basically scream their heads off and wander around the restaurant unsupervised bother us. I don't find that too often anywhere, but I know that if I go to Hooters at noon on Saturday that I can expect the likelihood to be much higher than when I go to the local Japanese Steakhouse at 6:00 on Thursday night.
Unfortunately it's those few that allow this that ruin it for everyone else. But that's how life is.

[rkmsuf]

I've seen requests made if a baby is crying for them to go back there. It's not like they are putting a gun to their head or something but still requests.

right the same way a restaurant manager would request that parents calm or quiet their kids. granted the norm for church vs restaurant is very different. minimal noise or crying can disrupt a service for everyone. dining is a little different in that sense.

if the church mandated all families sit behind the glass I could see the comparison.

[wade moore]

lol, people take their kids to Hooters? kewl. mah boys with looooooove it!

I would argue that Hooters is the most kid friendly restaurant I've ever been to (outside of like Chuck E. Cheese) as long as you're there before like 7:00 PM or so. (I have a lot of experience at Hooters because in this small town it's the only place to go with DirecTV and multiple TV's for football)

[wade moore]

Unfortunately it's those few that allow this that ruin it for everyone else. But that's how life is.

Agreed. But I'm saying that a smart restaurant goer knows the times and places to go where you greatly reduce the chances of running into this.

FWIW, I do feel that it would behoove restaurants to request completely over the top parents to take their children from the restauarant until they calm down. But I'm talking about screaming, whaling for minutes on end, not normal kid-type activities.

And I'm not saying kick them out of the restaurant, I'm just saying ask them to step outside until the child calms down.

[rkmsuf]

Unfortunately it's those few that allow this that ruin it for everyone else. But that's how life is.

I'm really not trying to slam anyone because I can see where you are coming from but you sound like that this is a constant theme when you go out to eat or places. I can see this happening once or twice but it feels like this is always a problem.

I mean I've been places as a familty where other families have disrupted things but not to the degree where I'm fearful everytime I see kids that trouble is brewing.

Yes it happens occasionally. I'm sure single people annoy the fuck out of other single people occasionally. That's life.

[BrianD]

I think this demographic is served simply by restaurants that do not cater towards families.

For instance, I expect a different environment when I go to Hooters than when I go to Outback than when I go to Ruth Kris (sp?) than when I go to Chuckie Cheese.

I think that those of us without children should have a feel for what restaurants (and times of day) you are more likely to find an atmosphere that is bothersome to you.

For instance, for me and my fiance, only children that are allowed to basically scream their heads off and wander around the restaurant unsupervised bother us. I don't find that too often anywhere, but I know that if I go to Hooters at noon on Saturday that I can expect the likelihood to be much higher than when I go to the local Japanese Steakhouse at 6:00 on Thursday night.

I agree that the situation is easy enough to avoid (or at least decrease the likelihood) by going to more expensive restaurants or by going during unpopular eating times. I'm just looking at this from a business point of view. If I can shift people toward unpopular eating times, that is probably a win for me. If I shift people toward a more expensive restaurant, that isn't a win for me. If I can increase repeat visitors by shifting around the seating sections, that may be a win too. Sadly I don't have a restaurant, so I can't test this myself. Maybe there aren't enough interested customers to make this worthwhile, but I would be interested in seeing the market research.

[rkmsuf]

I would argue that Hooters is the most kid friendly restaurant I've ever been to (outside of like Chuck E. Cheese) as long as you're there before like 7:00 PM or so. (I have a lot of experience at Hooters because in this small town it's the only place to go with DirecTV and multiple TV's for football)

I guess that clashes with my experience going to Hooters in the Northeast. Jubblies, yo!

It's about the farthest thing from Chuck E Cheese around here in every sense.

[DanGarion]

I'm really not trying to slam anyone because I can see where you are coming from but you sound like that this is a constant theme when you go out to eat or places. I can see this happening once or twice but it feels like this is always a problem.

I mean I've been places as a familty where other families have disrupted things but not to the degree where I'm fearful everytime I see kids that trouble is brewing.

Yes it happens occasionally. I'm sure single people annoy the fuck out of other single people occasionally. That's life.

My wife and I hate to go to movies because it seems that there is always a couple that sits next to us with their child (of about 1-6 years old) that either aimlessly gets out of their seat, kicks our seat, or talks/whines/cries. It's one thing if I'm going out and seeing a Disney movie or a child friendly movie, but it's another thing when I'm out seeing a drama, romantic comedy, thriller, etc.

[wade moore]

I agree that the situation is easy enough to avoid (or at least decrease the likelihood) by going to more expensive restaurants or by going during unpopular eating times. I'm just looking at this from a business point of view. If I can shift people toward unpopular eating times, that is probably a win for me. If I shift people toward a more expensive restaurant, that isn't a win for me. If I can increase repeat visitors by shifting around the seating sections, that may be a win too. Sadly I don't have a restaurant, so I can't test this myself. Maybe there aren't enough interested customers to make this worthwhile, but I would be interested in seeing the market research.

But I guess what I'm saying is that I think your potential market is reduced so much by irregular times and expensive restaurants that you'll end up with a net loss after you run off all of the families.

I guess that clashes with my experience going to Hooters in the Northeast. Jubblies, yo!

It's about the farthest thing from Chuck E Cheese around here in every sense.


Have you been to one in the afternoon/early evening? Yeah, there's a little bit of skin, but it's not like they're dancing on table tops.. and lets be honest, you see more skin at the local mall than you do at Hooter's in reality. In addition, from my experience (and it could be because I'm in the South or something) that the waitresses tend to pay a lot of attention to the kids, give them balloons, have a good kids menu, etc... I think it's helped by the fact that they're all young women who tend to like kids and aren't bitter old women or men.

[Butter]

My wife and I hate to go to movies because it seems that there is always a couple that sits next to us with their child (of about 1-6 years old) that either aimlessly gets out of their seat, kicks our seat, or talks/whines/cries. It's one thing if I'm going out and seeing a Disney movie or a child friendly movie, but it's another thing when I'm out seeing a drama, romantic comedy, thriller, etc.

Sounds like you've just had a run of bad luck and you need to chill out a little bit. I'm sure they're not seeking you out. And you're more than welcome to get up and move if you see some kids coming at you with a crazed look in their eye.

[wade moore]

My wife and I hate to go to movies because it seems that there is always a couple that sits next to us with their child (of about 1-6 years old) that either aimlessly gets out of their seat, kicks our seat, or talks/whines/cries. It's one thing if I'm going out and seeing a Disney movie or a child friendly movie, but it's another thing when I'm out seeing a drama, romantic comedy, thriller, etc.

I've all but sworn off the movies. We try to go on like a Tuesday at 4:00 in hopes that we avoid this and we still have mixed success.

But for us, this is from teenagers or grown adults or hell, in this big retirement area you get granny and grandpa with grandpa going, "huh?! WHAT'D HE SAY?!" I could start a whole thread on movies, but the complete and utter lack of respect that runs rampant in movie theatres these days is just out of control imo - and that's across age groups, sexes, social class, etc, etc.

[rkmsuf]

My wife and I hate to go to movies because it seems that there is always a couple that sits next to us with their child (of about 1-6 years old) that either aimlessly gets out of their seat, kicks our seat, or talks/whines/cries. It's one thing if I'm going out and seeing a Disney movie or a child friendly movie, but it's another thing when I'm out seeing a drama, romantic comedy, thriller, etc.

wow, that's never or rarely an issue for us anywhere pretty much.

I've had way more adults kicking my seat. Then it's on, beotches.

[BrianD]

Well you basicly answered your own question. Most people will choose to sit in the non smoking section even if they are smokers rather then wait 30-45 minutes. People with children would not have that option.

The problem is that word of mouth is the most powetfull form of advertising in the restaurant industry.

This is a fact, every angry customer tells 10 other people on average when they have a bad expierience. Every satisfied customer tells 1. So piss off one family and they tell 10 others and before you know it you are out of buisness.

This is where the research would be needed to have the proper seating distribution. Maybe the family section is 4-times as big as the non-family section, or maybe it is 10-times as big.

Word of mouth is powerful advertising, but it can work both ways. There are risks to this idea, but there are potential rewards too.

[rkmsuf]

But I guess what I'm saying is that I think your potential market is reduced so much by irregular times and expensive restaurants that you'll end up with a net loss after you run off all of the families.




Have you been to one in the afternoon/early evening? Yeah, there's a little bit of skin, but it's not like they're dancing on table tops.. and lets be honest, you see more skin at the local mall than you do at Hooter's in reality. In addition, from my experience (and it could be because I'm in the South or something) that the waitresses tend to pay a lot of attention to the kids, give them balloons, have a good kids menu, etc... I think it's helped by the fact that they're all young women who tend to like kids and aren't bitter old women or men.


One time I went at 1:00 pm and it was all guys and pitchers of beer and jubblies flirting with the patrons. Just what I wanted.

The other time in the day was 5:00 pm, gamenight for the Celtics near the Fleetcenter in Boston. Tit-o-rama and no balloons.

I think around here those places are geared way more towards the titallation aspect.

[PilotMan]

I had a puppy vomit and take a dump during one of my flights today. I am pretty sure that a number of people wished that we could have kicked it off...in flight.

[rkmsuf]

I had a puppy vomit and take a dump during one of my flights today. I am pretty sure that a number of people wished that we could have kicked it off...in flight.

You can carry on a puppy? Couldn't you hide like sharp objects in it's ass or something?

[BrianD]

But I guess what I'm saying is that I think your potential market is reduced so much by irregular times and expensive restaurants that you'll end up with a net loss after you run off all of the families.

Who said anything about running off all the families? In any restaurant there is a mixture of families with kids and without. Current seating plans pretty much have the customers scattered about the restaurant to keep the customer:server ratio low (I am assuming). Restaurants probably know the ratio of families with kids to those without (or can figure it out easily enough) and splitting up the sections accordingly could increase overall dining satisfaction. This may not be a huge increase, but it could be worth looking at.

[PilotMan]

You can carry on a puppy? Couldn't you hide like sharp objects in it's ass or something?

You could as long as the puppy fastened it's seatbelt.

[DanGarion]

I've all but sworn off the movies. We try to go on like a Tuesday at 4:00 in hopes that we avoid this and we still have mixed success.

But for us, this is from teenagers or grown adults or hell, in this big retirement area you get granny and grandpa with grandpa going, "huh?! WHAT'D HE SAY?!" I could start a whole thread on movies, but the complete and utter lack of respect that runs rampant in movie theatres these days is just out of control imo - and that's across age groups, sexes, social class, etc, etc.
Yeah teenagers should be shot :).

[wade moore]

You can carry on a puppy? Couldn't you hide like sharp objects in it's ass or something? Yup, you can carry dogs on under a certain size (generally similar to the "Small dog" thread)... we've talked about doing it several times, but never have... I wouldn't put mine in the cargo though, I'd only fly with them if I carried them on.

One time I went at 1:00 pm and it was all guys and pitchers of beer and jubblies flirting with the patrons. Just what I wanted.

The other time in the day was 5:00 pm, gamenight for the Celtics near the Fleetcenter in Boston. Tit-o-rama and no balloons.

I think around here those places are geared way more towards the titallation aspect. Yeah, must just be a regional difference. Not that that stuff doesn't happen, but it's still very family friendly.

Who said anything about running off all the families? In any restaurant there is a mixture of families with kids and without. Current seating plans pretty much have the customers scattered about the restaurant to keep the customer:server ratio low (I am assuming). Restaurants probably know the ratio of families with kids to those without (or can figure it out easily enough) and splitting up the sections accordingly could increase overall dining satisfaction. This may not be a huge increase, but it could be worth looking at.I just feel like by making this "segregation" that you will alienate families and they'll go elsewhere. They'll perceive they're going to get the lesser servers, etc, etc.

Yeah teenagers should be shot :).

Heard. But seriously, it spans all specturms. Movie theatres have lost all control and should really be much more proactive about making an enjoyable movie viewing exprience.

[wade moore]

You could as long as the puppy fastened it's seatbelt.

Oh, and, actually most airlines require that they are in a carrier.

[Lathum]

This is where the research would be needed to have the proper seating distribution. Maybe the family section is 4-times as big as the non-family section, or maybe it is 10-times as big.

Word of mouth is powerful advertising, but it can work both ways. There are risks to this idea, but there are potential rewards too.

I swear I'm not trying to be combative but the dynamics of your average restaurant wouldn't allow it to be succesfull. There are pretty much specific times when families come out to eat which means restaurants would have to constantly be shifting the size of that section based on the buisness and like I said, no restaurant would ever run the risk of pissing off a family.

[BrianD]

I swear I'm not trying to be combative but the dynamics of your average restaurant wouldn't allow it to be succesfull. There are pretty much specific times when families come out to eat which means restaurants would have to constantly be shifting the size of that section based on the buisness and like I said, no restaurant would ever run the risk of pissing off a family.

Seat families with kids on one side of the restaurant, families without kids on the other side, and let the middle fluctuate as needed?

[DanGarion]

Seat families with kids on one side of the restaurant, families without kids on the other side, and let the middle fluctuate as needed?

That makes too much sense!

[Lathum]

Seat families with kids on one side of the restaurant, families without kids on the other side, and let the middle fluctuate as needed?

and what happens when a family wants to sit "by the window", or when there is a large party that can't be accomadated on the correct side? or when the "family" side is to cold and someone wants to move?

[Desnudo]

One time I went at 1:00 pm and it was all guys and pitchers of beer and jubblies flirting with the patrons. Just what I wanted.

The other time in the day was 5:00 pm, gamenight for the Celtics near the Fleetcenter in Boston. Tit-o-rama and no balloons.

I think around here those places are geared way more towards the titallation aspect.

I think location plays a part there.

[Subby]

Most restaraunts we go to (I have four young kids) sit us in a location that is obviously "away" from other parts of the restaraunt. In every case there are other families in the same area. Outback does this. So does On the Border and a few others. Just because there isn't an official family section doesn't mean it isn't still being done.

[Lathum]

Most restaraunts we go to (I have four young kids) sit us in a location that is obviously "away" from other parts of the restaraunt. In every case there are other families in the same area. Outback does this. So does On the Border and a few others. Just because there isn't an official family section doesn't mean it isn't still being done.

you are 1000% correct. Hostesses are trained to try and group families together, etc...but that isn't always possible and telling someone they can't sit in a certain area is not an option.

[BrianD]

you are 1000% correct. Hostesses are trained to try and group families together, etc...but that isn't always possible and telling someone they can't sit in a certain area is not an option.

Maybe in some restaurants, but probably not most. I've already had plenty of experiences where the hostess pointed to a table and asked "how about this one?" while a kid at the table next to it was pitching a fit or dancing on the seat.

[Eaglesfan27]

Just so we're clear (a parent speaking to non-parents), the phrase "keeping you kid under control" does not equal "keeping your kid perfectly still and silent". Kids make noise. They talk, they laugh, they yell, they cry. It certainly is *not* appropriate for kids to scream and cry continuously in an environment where atmosphere is important (out to dinner, at the movies, in an airplane to a much lesser extent), but to expect children - be them babies, toddlers, or teenagers - to be silent is a complete misunderstanding and misconception on your part, and that is your problem to deal with, not the parents.


I see this misconception in quite a few parents as well. I wish more people would get that kids (particularly younger kids) aren't going to be perfectly quiet in almost any circumstances for any significant length of time. I applaud your methods to try to appease people around you when you fly with your family.

[PilotMan]

Oh, and, actually most airlines require that they are in a carrier.

dude, you so missed it. I guess I should have had one of these ( ;) )

[sterlingice]

It took a few messages but, glad to see the thread devolved into the 'I have kids so you can't say anything' vs 'I don't have kids so control them' argument.

Nicely done...

Fix'd.

I think we all agree there are limits. I think the argument is who gets to set the limits. And for some people there is no middle ground.

No, I really think the original was correct. It's like anything else- the middle ground is wherever the person drawing it stands. Too disruptive is anything above and ok is anything below. Never mind that the line is, of course, different for everyone.

In particular, I love that the parents think there is an absolute middle ground when there is none to be had. Not to make this political, but I think abortion is a perfect analogy- you have a large group of people that think "none at all" and then everyone else with varying degrees who want to come up with some sort of compromise. However, with people against abortion- there is no such thing as a fair compromise- any compromise is against what they believe and to codemn them for not wanting a compromise shows a complete lack of understanding of their position. Similarly- you can't say "there is an acceptable amount" and negotiate with "anything but no noise is bad"- for those people to move from their position is a lack of understanding of the binary nature of the position.

SI

[RendeR]

No, I really think the original was correct. It's like anything else- the middle ground is wherever the person drawing it stands. Too disruptive is anything above and ok is anything below. Never mind that the line is, of course, different for everyone.

In particular, I love that the parents think there is an sbsolute middle ground when there is none to be had. Not to make this political, but I think abortion is a perfect analogy- you have a large group of people that think "none at all" and then everyone else with varying degrees who want to come up with some sort of compromise. However, with people against abortion- there is no such thing as a fair compromise- any compromise is against what they believe and to codemn them for not wanting a compromise shows a complete lack of understanding of their position. Similarly- you can't say "there is an acceptable amount" and negotiate with "anything but no noise is bad"- for those people to move from their position is a lack of understanding of the binary nature of the position.

SI


Out-Fucking-Standing post SI. I agree completely. Well done, Well done I say.

[SuperGrover]

Just so we're clear (a parent speaking to non-parents), the phrase "keeping you kid under control" does not equal "keeping your kid perfectly still and silent".

I certainly was not implying that.

It does mean that they don't throw a tantrum and refuse to get into a seat and you have no recourse as a parent. THAT is out of control.

I do not have children but I have two beautiful neices and a handsome nephew. They're all 10 or older now, but I remember keeping them under control. yes, they made noise and sometimes they cried in public. But, they sure as Hell never refused to get into a seat.

[SuperGrover]

When I'm paying good money for that same dinner, then no one else gets to fucking tell me what is a reasonable amount of noise from my child, so long as they are not being physically disruptive. Deal with it. There are lines that are crossed, but as others said, a kid who is making a bit of noise is not necessarily out of control just because there are people nearby who don't like kids.


Deal with it? How bout I graphically talk about double teaming a Vietnameese stripper within ear shot of your young 'en. I bet you wouldn't feel that you should have to "deal with that", would you? However, I would've paid the same amount of money and I'm not being physically disruptive.

Kids are not the problem. The problem is that parents are completely incosiderate so they don't really give two shits about their child's actions. I see kids running amok in restaurants all the time and I'm always wondering whats going to happen when little Johnny gets steamrolled by the waitress delivering 6 plates to the large party at table 10. everyone once in a while it happens and the parent will produce an sincere apology. Of course, within 5 minutes, the kid is again doing whatever he wants and the parent is sitting by without a care in the world.

My sister would used to let my nephew stare at people at dinner. Literally turn and stare. Now, the kid would be completely quiet and not touch antyhing but his staring obviously made everyone uncomfortable. She would never do anything about it. It got to the point where I stopped eating out with him because I was pissed she was so incosiderate. Do you think that is the activity someone should have to deal with?

It really is all about the Golden Rule, but everyone seems to have forgotten that. Tis a shame, but at least I know that my kids will grow up with a sense of selflessness.

[SuperGrover]

How is sitting in the bar section while waiting for a restaurant table to open up inimical to the interests of the child? Unless you are feeding the little urchins alcohol, I don't see much of a problem.

Anyway, one of my four year olds grabbed my beer when I wasn't looking and just started drinking it. I guess he thought it was his juice or something. I was like - what the fuck, elroy, does this look like your sippy cup? Anyway, the manager comes over and starts yelling at me for letting my kid drink my beer. All up in my grill. So we are going at it and then my kid lets out this monster burp that totally catches everyone off guard. Well it was so cute that manager just had to laugh and he ended up comping us dessert. After that everyone kept coming over and telling me how preccocious my kids were!

I know the story was funny and all but they could've easily lost their liquor license had a strict state offical witnessed this (or even if it were reported). That's why many places do not allow minors into the bar area because if theyare responsible to keep alcohol out of the hnads of minors, even if the minors are accompanied by an adult.

[Butter]

Deal with it? How bout I graphically talk about double teaming a Vietnameese stripper within ear shot of your young 'en. I bet you wouldn't feel that you should have to "deal with that", would you? However, I would've paid the same amount of money and I'm not being physically disruptive.

That has happened on occasion. And, yes, I had to deal with it. I deal with it by just talking to my son who was nearest the conversation so he can't hear what the other party is talking about.

And sterlingice, I don't really agree with your post that there is no middle ground. There is some kind of a middle ground, based on the situation you're in. As mentioned before, there are situations where one can reasonably expect there to be noisy children, as there are others when one can reasonably expect there to be an absence of children altogether.

[ice4277]

I know the story was funny and all but they could've easily lost their liquor license had a strict state offical witnessed this (or even if it were reported).
Or, had it actually happened in the first place.

[ISiddiqui]

Sometimes I wonder... why is it that some parents when someone complains about completely out of control children says that the complainer wants all children to be perfectly quiet? No one complains when a kid is simply talking a little loudly or laughing loudly at a Fridays or whatnot. People complain when the kids are screaming their heads off (and the parents don't even look at them) or wanding around the restaurant (and the parents don't care) or both. Or, loud talking in a movie theater for a non-children's movie with the parents not caring (though as pointed out most movie patrons are inconsiderate these days).

It ain't about making all kids say not a peep. It's about controlling out of control children.

[DanGarion]

Sometimes I wonder... why is it that some parents when someone complains about completely out of control children says that the complainer wants all children to be perfectly quiet? No one complains when a kid is simply talking a little loudly or laughing loudly at a Fridays or whatnot. People complain when the kids are screaming their heads off (and the parents don't even look at them) or wanding around the restaurant (and the parents don't care) or both. Or, loud talking in a movie theater for a non-children's movie with the parents not caring (though as pointed out most movie patrons are inconsiderate these days).

It ain't about making all kids say not a peep. It's about controlling out of control children.

Exactly.

[duckman]

Sometimes I wonder... why is it that some parents when someone complains about completely out of control children says that the complainer wants all children to be perfectly quiet? No one complains when a kid is simply talking a little loudly or laughing loudly at a Fridays or whatnot. People complain when the kids are screaming their heads off (and the parents don't even look at them) or wanding around the restaurant (and the parents don't care) or both. Or, loud talking in a movie theater for a non-children's movie with the parents not caring (though as pointed out most movie patrons are inconsiderate these days).

It ain't about making all kids say not a peep. It's about controlling out of control children.

That's not always the case. When I went to Oklahoma from Mississippi to bring my then wife and our son to the base I was stationed for training, I took her and Matthew to a Olive Garden in Oklahoma City the night before we planned to leave. Matthew at the time was about 10 months old and was a bit of a talker. He like hearing the different sounds he made, so it would entertain him. We were sitting there eating and having a conversation when the man behind me asked us to keep the baby quiet. Knowing he wasn't making a disturbance, I told him that I was sorry, but he is not any louder than anyone else in the dining area. The guy would not shut about it! He then took a shot at me saying "I guess you're time in the Air Force didn't teach you any manners" because I was still wearing my "blues" after getting off the plane. I kept my mouth shut (which was hard for me to do at the time). He finally complained to the manager and they offered to move them to a different area which he accepted.

I guess my point of my ramble is that quiet is very relative. I have never had a complaint about Matthew before or after that incident which is why I am still surprised by his reaction.

[Desnudo]

wow, that's never or rarely an issue for us anywhere pretty much.

I've had way more adults kicking my seat. Then it's on, beotches.

Sorry about that. I have Restless Leg Syndrome.

[Subby]

I know the story was funny and all but they could've easily lost their liquor license had a strict state offical witnessed this (or even if it were reported). That's why many places do not allow minors into the bar area because if theyare responsible to keep alcohol out of the hnads of minors, even if the minors are accompanied by an adult.
Yeah but my kids are really cute, so he probably would have looked the other way!

[daedalus]

When I'm paying good money for that same dinner, then no one else gets to fucking tell me what is a reasonable amount of noise from my child, so long as they are not being physically disruptive. Deal with it. There are lines that are crossed, but as others said, a kid who is making a bit of noise is not necessarily out of control just because there are people nearby who don't like kids.And y'know what? When the restaurant (or, in this case, an airline) opts to reject your good money because of the possibility of it costing them more good money from other patrons? Have the grace to SHUT. THE. FUCK. UP. And move on. That's more in reference to the asshole parents in the story than you, really, because I have no idea how YOU would react in the same situation.

As an aside, not every childless asshole who wishes to have the ability to enjoy their meal or movie (or, in this case, suffer their flight in relative comfort and semi-decent timeliness) suffer from the "don't like kids" syndrome. That's nearly as asstarded a blanket statement as the earlier one of "it's not that hard to get your kids under control".

[PilotMan]

In general the airline did the right thing. However, the manner in which it was handled was not the best. I don't believe that the parents were told what would happen if they were unable to get her under control.

One of the most important things for an airline is to maintain the timetable. It has to be on time. In this case, the flight was already late, how much was attributable to this situation I don't know. But someone felt that they had to leave, so they did.

The family should have been warned what was going to happen. From what I have read, they didn't know that they were being kicked off, until they were. Anyone who is treated that way would be upset.

Personally, if it happend to me I would feel horribly embarrased. I would be mad. I probably wouldn't have gone to the lenghts that this family did. In the end, this wouldn't be me, because my kids know better.

[Butter]

Is this thread still going? Start talking about a couple of misbehaving children and people get PISSED.

[RendeR]

Is this thread still going? Start talking about a couple of misbehaving children and people get PISSED.


Its been a slow eek at FOFC, they gotta snarl on about SOMETHING....

[gstelmack]

Its been a slow eek at FOFC,

hehe.

[BrianD]

Looks like I wasn't the only one to think of having a kids' section in a restaurant.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2971198&page=1

[Lathum]

I've heard about this place before. It seems to me you really can't compare this place to a casual dining restaurant. This is more of a "cafe" type place that doesn't seem to cater to kids and families anyway so it isn't really taking a huge leap.

[Lathum]

dola- here is a restaurant review of the place

In Short
Cozy and cheerful, this bakery-cafe beckons singles and groups of friends to dive into sweet, homestyle treats like cookies, muffins and cakes. The signature Jeannine's cake is a scrumptious concoction of strawberries, raspberries and blueberries with cream cheese and buttercream. Special-ordered, ribbon-wrapped fondant cakes are a wedding-reception favorite. Chicken pot pie, fresh-made soups and fontina quiche provide sustenance, while dried cherry scones are a tea party requisite.

[sabotai]

I've heard about this place before.

So have I. I'm almost certain we had a thread on this place before.

EDIT: Seek and ye shall find: http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=44396