NHL:EHM Good and Bad news ..

[Marc Vaughan]

Hi,

Good and bad news on the EHM front today - the new patch is now available for download from sigames.com, however we have also announced that sadly this will be the last game in the series.

Details at:

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6461934525/m/8602070492

Many thanks to everyone who supported the game.

Hope this helps,

Marc

[SirFozzie]

Had a feeling this would be it for the series..

Too bad.

[Marc Vaughan]

PS> For those of you who can't view the forums the gist of things is that the game was available on warez this year before we managed to release it - the torrent downloads have been very busy but sales haven't been high enough to keep the series going.

All of the EHM team are still going to be at SI and will be happily beavering away on other products here ...

[Marc Duffy]

Reposted in full here.

Well, there's good news, bad news, then some good news again. So....

The first bit of good news, is that we are happy to announce and make available the final patch for Eastside Hockey Manager 2007. This includes lots of little improvements and bug fixes, and you can find the patch http://www.sigames.com/news.php?type=view&article_id=1260. We hope that this will increase the longevity and enjoyability (ooh, new made up word) for the release of the game.

Now onto the bad news. As you know, the last Eastside release was via digital download. At the time, people complained about this as a distribution method, but it was the only one open to us - the first version of Eastside did very well in Scandinavia, pretty well in Europe and just about OK in the US & Canada. The second also did just about OK in the US and Canada, just about OK in Europe, but despite great review scores and decent pre-orders, the sales in Scandinavia, that had pretty much kept the game going, dropped heavily, from our analysis of the situation, mainly due to the game getting hacked before release, and pirated. Because of this, a retail release wasn't worthwhile with the pre-orders that we were going to get from retail, so we thought we'd go digi download, and encourage people to buy that way, whilst having a lower break even point due to retail not taking their cut.

So the game came out to glowing reviews, and decent online pre-orders, and we sat and waited to see the numbers going up and up. The forums were full of people constructively criticising, and praising (just the way we like it) and we were all pretty buoyant. We had more licenses than any other hockey game in history, it was the best Hockey management game in the history of gaming ever, and Riz and his team had done an amazing job. So, despite Hockey being a bit less popular post the hiatus of the sport in the US in 2004, we still couldn't fail, right?

Wrong. The orders came in a drizzle, rather than a flood. We scratched our heads trying to work out what had gone wrong. And then someone pointed out that the game was being pirated, and was available as a torrent from lots of different pirating sites. Then sat there and watched as the claimed amount of downloads on those sites went up and up, as sales stayed static.

Basically, the game did not bring in enough money to cover the development costs, let alone the license fees on top of that. So we've had to make the decision to stop development on the game for now - it doesn't mean that it'll never come back, but for the foreseeable future, there will not be another version of Eastside Hockey Manager.

The good news is that the amazing talented people on the Eastside team have all decided to stay with Sports Interactive. Riz, Ed & Phil are going to be working on Football Manager moving forward, and Graeme has joined our R&D department to work on developing a new idea forward, which we'll be announcing later in the year.

Thank you to all of you out there who supported the Eastside Hockey Manager project by buying the game, and especially those who helped with testing and research. And to those of you who pirated it, this is what happens when you steal. There are no excuses you can give that are valid for stealing - you have lead to the demise of a game that you enjoyed playing.

[miked]

So there's no way possible to keep it from getting hacked? How come we don't hear about this for OOTP, FOF, or other digital downloads? Seems kind of silly to end a great series because you can't figure out how to beat the hackers in this one instance...

I had a fun time with the demo, though I don't like the SI interface and how much "work" I have to do for basic things some times. It seemed like a good game and I was thinking about picking it up, but this leaves me scratching my head.

[wade moore]

I never played EHM because I'm not a hockey fan, but unfortunate to see any game in the text sim genre go away, let alone when it is because of Pirating.

This line on the forum is so true in this situation:

And to those of you who pirated it, this is what happens when you steal. There are no excuses you can give that are valid for stealing - you have lead to the demise of a game that you enjoyed playing.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I was just coming here to post about this.

Marc, you and your guys at SI did a great job on the two NHL EHM games. I know that there were bugs, but there was nothing else on the market like it. I'm very sad that there will be no further development on the game, but I understand.

Selfishly, I wish that we could change all of your minds about this. I was waiting for this patch before purchasing. I wish that I could just say, "Hey, I'm buying it tonight! Now you can keep working on EHM!" Of course, I know the reality of the situation. EHM is done.

I look forward to future versions of FM, and I'm sure that having a guy like Riz on the FM team is going to help the game in a big way.

Thanks for your work on EHM, guys, and thanks for bringing Riz onto your team.

[Ksyrup]

For all the complaining people do about Jim's method of protecting FOF, especially with regard to the demo, I'd rather see the criticism of Jim than an announcement like this.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I was just coming here to post about this.

Marc, you and your guys at SI did a great job on the two NHL EHM games. I know that there were bugs, but there was nothing else on the market like it. I'm very sad that there will be no further development on the game, but I understand.

Selfishly, I wish that we could change all of your minds about this. I was waiting for this patch before purchasing. I wish that I could just say, "Hey, I'm buying it tonight! Now you can keep working on EHM!" Of course, I know the reality of the situation. EHM is done.

I look forward to future versions of FM, and I'm sure that having a guy like Riz on the FM team is going to help the game in a big way.

Thanks for your work on EHM, guys, and thanks for bringing Riz onto your team.

I agree with everything Pumpy said.

I loved these games. I played the hell out of them. It was really the perfect game for me.

Thanks for all the hardwork, time, effort, and money you put into making them. It was great appreciated by the folks who played it.

I'm glad to see all the EHM folks are staying on. They are a talented group and SI is lucky to have them.

Thanks for all the good times, fellas...

[Draft Dodger]

sorry to see EHM go. 2007 was my first introduction to the series, and I think there's a lot of promise there.

[JPhillips]

I wonder if this decision comes from Sega.

It really sucks. I try to support text sim developers even when I don't really have the money/time to do so. EHM has been great fun and I looked forward to it's continued development. This just goes to show that all of the graphics/2d engine/expanded interface stuff comes with the cost of extra salaries and resources. In the end we EHM fans couldn't spend enough money to keep the game going.

If I were Markus I'd be really worried about the future of OOTP.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Had a feeling this would be it for the series..
Why?

[Fidatelo]

As someone who bought the first NHL:EHM but not the second, I think the "pirating killed the game" excuse is not entirely accurate (and no, I did not pirate any version of EHM).

When the recent version of the game came out, I almost immediately went to the link to buy it. But then I thought to myself "I hardly played the last one; why is that?". Then I re-installed the old VB6 freeware version and had a blast, and realised that most of what made the original fun was missing in the SI version, and the new one wasn't going to change that fact.

So I'd argue that the fact that NHL:EHM was never even close to as "fun" as the old freeware version had a major hand in killing the game as well.

[sachmo71]

This is really terrible news. I was looking forward to the progression of the series, and now I see that this is the end.

[Coder]

A few comments, and reasons why a game relying so heavily on the Scandinavian market is not good for the business-decision that was made regarding offering the game as "download-only".

1) Scandinavian countries still suffer from the "afraid of paying stuff online", which is weird how "net-savvy" most Scandinavians are. The majority of online-sales to Scandinavian citizens are through invoicing, not by credit card online.

2) Broadband connections are more of a standard than just "common" here and piracy has become more and more prominent. Kids don't seem to want to understand that there's a production-cost behind something.

I bought EHM the first time around, but didn't bother with the latest version for two reasons.

First was that the more it looked like FM, the more it felt like "FM without the bells and whistles".. Secondly, the pricing.. knowing that the US-price was almost €10 below the Euro-price simply turned me off.

EHM also didn't appeal to me and my personal "wish" of a hockey-game. I've grown to love the multiplayer aspects of sims. I've never played a SP-season "properly" in either OOTP nor FOF, but I have every version I've been able to purchase (download only!).

I'm not always looking for a strict NHL-replay, but I'd like the option to re-sim historical seasons, participate in multiplayer leagues, create "alternate" universes etc. None of which EHM offers me.. I never got the same "wohaa" feeling out of EHM that I got from FHL, which is VASTLY less complex, yet offers me more of what I want than EHM did. Please note I'm saying I here.. it's only my personal opinion as a hockeysimmer :).

I say good luck to Riz, the idea was great!

[Deattribution]

I wonder if there really is a big enough market for a Hockey text sim to begin with and I also wonder whether or not despite talk of games being 'more like FM/CM' if people really want the same system and the same interface for a completely different game.

I understand piracy probably took away some of the sales but the majority of piracy is done by people who never intended on making a purchase in the first place.

[Coder]

I wonder if there really is a big enough market for a Hockey text sim to begin with and I also wonder whether or not despite talk of games being 'more like FM/CM' if people really want the same system and the same interface for a completely different game.

I understand piracy probably took away some of the sales but the majority of piracy is done by people who never intended on making a purchase in the first place.


Bettman has killed the NHL, but I think there's still a huge market, especially in Canada (and judging by the FHL-forums, French Canada in particular), for a FLEXIBLE Text sim that would let you re-create the pre-Bettman NHL :).

[JonInMiddleGA]

... but the majority of piracy is done by people who never intended on making a purchase in the first place.

I usually think along those lines myself when it comes to software, but this announcement does make me wonder if that's equally true in all parts of the world. Maybe Coder (or any of our other Scandanavian/European posters) could comment on that a little, is the culture for software piracy significantly different from the US in that regard?

[SirFozzie]

Why?

Lack of interest in the sport (like soccer, it's now a niche sport, tops in the US), online only option.

edit: Let me expand a bit further. When I saw the latest Here We Go Boyz thread peter out with three-four posters being the only ones really discussing the game at the end, and then realized that if FOFC is a barometer of interest in various sims (text especially)..

The crowd just wasn't there for it.

[Marc Duffy]

Secondly, the pricing.. knowing that the US-price was almost €10 below the Euro-price simply turned me off.



$34.99 and €29.99, theres not that much difference in pricing for EHM 2007

[wade moore]

I understand piracy probably took away some of the sales but the majority of piracy is done by people who never intended on making a purchase in the first place.

I usually think along those lines myself when it comes to software, but this announcement does make me wonder if that's equally true in all parts of the world. Maybe Coder (or any of our other Scandanavian/European posters) could comment on that a little, is the culture for software piracy significantly different from the US in that regard?

I used to think this way, back when I pirated (Like HS and early College). The more I grow and learn, the more I think this is mostly an excuse for pirates. Sure, there are some that have no intention of buying the game, but more and more I realize there are a large number that could buy the games, but don't bother when they can get them for free.

For instance, me in HS. Say I pirated 4 games in a month. Yeah, I probably couldn't buy 4 games, but I could buy 1. Instead I pirate 4 and then buy zero.

[scooter]

I'm really going to miss this game. It has, by FAR, been my most-played game series. I also played the freeware version, but I have never wanted to go back to that one after playing SI's versions (there have actually been 3).

Thanks to Riz, Graeme, Phil and everyone else that has worked on this game over the years. It is sad to see it go.

[st.cronin]

I'd argue that the fact that NHL:EHM was never even close to as "fun" as the old freeware version had a major hand in killing the game as well.

""

I still play the freeware from time to time.

[Coder]

$34.99 and €29.99, theres not that much difference in pricing for EHM 2007

I've had this gripe with both OOTP and EHM (the first version). I paid SEK 399 for the first EHM, about €39.99, while the dollar-price was considerably lower if you converted the price to both SEK and Euro. OOTP is also a "what-feels-like" unfair price-difference for us Euros.

[Marc Duffy]

Yes but we reviewed our pricing for EHM 2007 and it was €29.99

[Coder]

I used to think this way, back when I pirated (Like HS and early College). The more I grow and learn, the more I think this is mostly an excuse for pirates. Sure, there are some that have no intention of buying the game, but more and more I realize there are a large number that could buy the games, but don't bother when they can get them for free.

For instance, me in HS. Say I pirated 4 games in a month. Yeah, I probably couldn't buy 4 games, but I could buy 1. Instead I pirate 4 and then buy zero.

This is both for this post and for Jon's post.

I'm not sure what's going on but there's definately an increase in pirated games in Scandinavia. I have a few theories.

There's an increase in games being released, heck, an increase in "entertainment options".. basically, increasing the choices for gamers. To compensate for this, companies do not lower prices, instead they jack them up (see new console-generations etc).

The gamer is then faced with a situation where he/she wants two games, but can only afford one. Then combine this with the availability of broadband and the open pirating going on and you have a situation where at least one of the games can be downloaded for free... the gamer then thinks, well, if I can download one for free... why not the other?

Another factor is MMORPGs like World of Warcraft sucking up not only money, but also gametime. If a kid is playing WoW for 3 hours a night, why would his parents even consider allowing him to get another game?

I think one of the first things that needs to be done is to lower the pricing. If a game is distributed online only, the price should reflect that. There's no boxing-cost, no distribution costs, no profit-margin for the stores to be considered. Lower the price and see your sales-volume increase.

I buy quite a few DVDs.. I'm talking about 5-6 a month, sometimes more. I never, ever, buy fullprice DVDs, I'm always hogging the bargain-bins. I can get a year old DVD-release for a third of the price.. seriously, I can wait, I don't need to see a movie again 6 months after I saw it in the theatre.

Whew.. lots of points here, not sure how coherent.

[Deattribution]

I used to think this way, back when I pirated (Like HS and early College). The more I grow and learn, the more I think this is mostly an excuse for pirates. Sure, there are some that have no intention of buying the game, but more and more I realize there are a large number that could buy the games, but don't bother when they can get them for free.

For instance, me in HS. Say I pirated 4 games in a month. Yeah, I probably couldn't buy 4 games, but I could buy 1. Instead I pirate 4 and then buy zero.

To clarify, I was suggesting that I wouldn't denote poor sales directly on piracy, not that piracy wasn't a big deal because they weren't going to buy it anyway.

It's easier to save face by blaming it on piracy instead of just saying the game wasn't garnering enough interest to be profitable. I mean, if it was such a rampant problem I doubt that out of all the games that could be pirated to death EHM would be #1 on everyone's list.

[Fouts]

I bought the last 2 EHM releases, and enjoy them. Sorry to see it won't be moving forward.

I didn't buy the last WWSM version because I kept waiting for the digital download, then gave up on it.

Still looking forward to future products from SI.

[Marc Duffy]

I don't think it's got anything to do with saving face. From our point of view, what you read from our studio director is from the heart honesty and us calling the situation as best we can. There is no window dressing in his post.

[Coder]

I don't think it's got anything to do with saving face. From our point of view, what you read from our studio director is from the heart honesty and us calling the situation as best we can. There is no window dressing in his post.

Saving face was a bit harsh, I agree, but he's got a point. I'd like to re-iterate what I said about EHM feeling like FM without the bells and whistles.

I don't think it's a good business decision to make all SI-games look so much alike for the simple reason that FM is so outstanding. The likeness in the games make a comparison with FM next to impossible and it makes all other games feel watered down.

[Marc Vaughan]

It's easier to save face by blaming it on piracy instead of just saying the game wasn't garnering enough interest to be profitable. I mean, if it was such a rampant problem I doubt that out of all the games that could be pirated to death EHM would be #1 on everyone's list.
The reason piracy was mentioned was simply because of the figures which we've obtained regarding downloads from illegal sources - EHM was heavily pirated .... and unfortunately it didn't have a large enough user base to remain profitable.

One of the reasons it was mentioned was simply that its sad that this is a contributing cause to the canning of the game and in the past most publishers/developers simply avoid the issue .... rather than do this I think its worthwhile indicating that peoples decisions do have an effect and hopefully it might make a small percentage of pirates think twice and actually purchase products (and thus keep them alive for people to enjoy in the future).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Although I really don't want to go too far down this particular sidetrack, strictly FWIW, I really don't see any undue "spin" being put on the situation. Actually, I thought the announcement was handled pretty darned well considering the unpleasant situation it has to be for all involved.

I know that my .02 really doesn't amount to a helluva lot in the grand scheme, but fair's fair -- if I'll rip on them when I think they screw something up, then I feel like I ought to give them credit when I think they get something right.

[Draft Dodger]

I don't think it's got anything to do with saving face. From our point of view, what you read from our studio director is from the heart honesty and us calling the situation as best we can. There is no window dressing in his post.

which is why I am a fan of SI. for the most part, you guys don't mess around with feeding us a bunch of bullshit.

Deattribution makes a great point - one that I was trying to find the words for myself. Yes, piracy sucks. But I hope when SI goes to evaluate the franchise, they don't dismiss the failure simply on that one factor. There are a lot of things that could have been better - from the game itself to marketing. Piracy was just one element that has hurt the series.

[MizzouRah]

Well that sucks.

[Icy]

Sad news, I bought both versions but i'm also one of the guys who had more fun with the freeware version in the past. the best news are that the EHM developers, Riz and company, will keep working with SI, they are great guys and it would be really sad for them to lose their jobs.

About the piracy thing, I hope this will make more developers to go to the elicense route. Search in torrent sites, you can download ALL the games released in CD/DVD while you can't find even one of elicense games. The download and play approach is the future and slowly becoming also the present.

[Deattribution]

It probably wasn't the best way of putting it and I apologize for that, I certainly didn't mean to imply there was some sort of shady practice going on. Marc (both of them) have always been pretty straight-forward with everyone here.

I just hope in the next endeavor (OOTP potentially, or another sport) that the failure of this game isn't wrote off as 'niche sport, too many pirates'. So far the other games outside of FM have had more realism but lacked alot on the fun side IMO.

[Draft Dodger]

About the piracy thing, I hope this will make more developers to go to the elicense route. Search in torrent sites, you can download ALL the games released in CD/DVD while you can't find even one of elicense games. The download and play approach is the future and slowly becoming also the present.

I'm confused - isn't EHM elicense?

[Icy]

I'm confused - isn't EHM elicense?

The past version was on CD too and i guess that is the one that got leaked and pirated as FM is pirated every year too. You won't find OOTP2k6 pirated anywhere on the other hand.

[Ksyrup]

Lack of interest in the sport (like soccer, it's now a niche sport, tops in the US), online only option.

edit: Let me expand a bit further. When I saw the latest Here We Go Boyz thread peter out with three-four posters being the only ones really discussing the game at the end, and then realized that if FOFC is a barometer of interest in various sims (text especially)..

The crowd just wasn't there for it.

I don't know if I represent an American view on this, or just my own warped view, but I have found that I cannot get into games which have virtually unlimited international leagues as a "feature" of the game - FM, EHM, the latest OOTP, etc. I haven't bought any of them, and it wasn't because I refused to give them a try. I just want a small, pre-defined universe of leagues to work with. The prospect of scouting and accounting for prospects and minor league or developmental teams in multiple countries or regions doesn't appeal to me in the slightest - even if doing so would make the game more realistic.

Add in the unfamiliar rules related to signing/retaining prospects or, in the case of soccer, just the idea of "transfers," and it's more of a chore to learn and master all of that than to play the game for fun. With a sport like baseball that I care about, I'm even on the fence about a game that would bring in the Latin America and Japanese prospects - or, I'd like to see them in the game, but in a manner where they are "spoon-fed" to me, not some limitless universe of players I have to individually account for by specifically scouting them and signing them. It's just too overwhelming for me and is too much of a burden relative to the main reason I want to play the game in the first place.

I'm not sure if that helps explain it or not, because this may solely be my issue. But I wouldn't be adverse to a hockey sim, just not in the way EHM is set up. And I spologize to "the Marc's" if I'm indirectly criticizing the way you develop your games, because I don't mean for it to come off that way.

[Capital]

I purchased the game via pre-order even though I did not play it all that much. I did find time for FOF2007, but I think the above post about MMORG is accurate.

I have bought a couple of other games, Oblivion amd NWN2 come to mind, but they are mostly on the shelf due to WoW (especially now with the expansion that changes the game). They suck the life out of the other games and are timesinks. I think this is a legitimate factor in computer gaming today.

I'm making a new stand that until I shelve WoW, the only games I will buy will be text based sports games. Games like FOF and DDS basketball allow a different universe that another fantasy game like NWN2 and Gothic 3. If I want fantasy, then I will play WoW or EQ2.

[sachmo71]

btw...i also appreciate the statement as to why the game is being shelved. i've always been a fan of more communication with the customer. with people like me, it builds goodwill.

[Markus Heinsohn]

If I were Markus I'd be really worried about the future of OOTP.

I'm not :)

But this is too bad for Riz. EHM is a fantastic game... I wish it sold more, but hockey isn't a big market obviously :(

[SirFozzie]

I don't know if I represent an American view on this, or just my own warped view, but I have found that I cannot get into games which have virtually unlimited international leagues as a "feature" of the game - FM, EHM, the latest OOTP, etc. I haven't bought any of them, and it wasn't because I refused to give them a try. I just want a small, pre-defined universe of leagues to work with. The prospect of scouting and accounting for prospects and minor league or developmental teams in multiple countries or regions doesn't appeal to me in the slightest - even if doing so would make the game more realistic.

Add in the unfamiliar rules related to signing/retaining prospects or, in the case of soccer, just the idea of "transfers," and it's more of a chore to learn and master all of that than to play the game for fun. With a sport like baseball that I care about, I'm even on the fence about a game that would bring in the Latin America and Japanese prospects - or, I'd like to see them in the game, but in a manner where they are "spoon-fed" to me, not some limitless universe of players I have to individually account for by specifically scouting them and signing them. It's just too overwhelming for me and is too much of a burden relative to the main reason I want to play the game in the first place.

I'm not sure if that helps explain it or not, because this may solely be my issue. But I wouldn't be adverse to a hockey sim, just not in the way EHM is set up. And I spologize to "the Marc's" if I'm indirectly criticizing the way you develop your games, because I don't mean for it to come off that way.

Although I don't subscribe to that (in fact, I love the "unlimited" options available in OOTP/FM), I can understand that. Maybe that can go in the thread of determining things yourself versus spoon feeding, how much is too much?

[MIJB#19]

I'm not sure what's going on but there's definately an increase in pirated games in Scandinavia. I have a few theories.

There's an increase in games being released, heck, an increase in "entertainment options".. basically, increasing the choices for gamers. To compensate for this, companies do not lower prices, instead they jack them up (see new console-generations etc).

The gamer is then faced with a situation where he/she wants two games, but can only afford one. Then combine this with the availability of broadband and the open pirating going on and you have a situation where at least one of the games can be downloaded for free... the gamer then thinks, well, if I can download one for free... why not the other?
Nothing different from the Netherlands. It's considered 'normal' to get stuff for 'free'. Yes, even those who are software builders for a living do this. I do here stories from people who get the game 'for free' to use it as a demo and then buy the original when they like it. But I'm sure it's a tiny minority that does that. Nope, I can't be proud about my country about it.

[Icy]

Nothing different from the Netherlands. It's considered 'normal' to get stuff for 'free'. Yes, even those who are software builders for a living do this. I do here stories from people who get the game 'for free' to use it as a demo and then buy the original when they like it. But I'm sure it's a tiny minority that does that. Nope, I can't be proud about my country about it.

I'm even less proud of my country that you guys are, the piracy rate in Spain is a 46% while the average in Europe is a 36%.

USA is the country with the lower, a 21% while China is the worst country with a 86%.

(2006 Data from the BSA).

[Eaglesfan27]

Count me among those who enjoyed the freeware version more. I bought the first version from SI and just never got into it. I think when some of us dream about Solecismic merging with SI, we think about what we want and at least for me it is more media interaction, a 2D representation of the football game, etc. It is not to have football being played in as many countries as possible. I understand why SI goes that route since more countries equals more potential sales, but I think this provides some evidence that it might be important to work on other phases of the game before expanding into many countries as possible with the first joint version.

In any case, I agree with others that this announcement was handed well, and I'm looking forward to the next version of OOTP proving Markus is right..

[Cringer]

Well too bad. When I got the latest EHM it was my first experience playing it, and I enjoyed it. It was a blast taking my local Rio Grande Valley Killer Bees on a championship run, I had never done that with a game (controling a real-life local team). The game faded away for me mainly because of what was then my new job. I am sure I will get back into it though once my FOF2007 high wears off.

[Cringer]

I think when some of us dream about Solecismic merging with SI, we think about what we want and at least for me it is more media interaction, a 2D representation of the football game, etc. It is not to have football being played in as many countries as possible.

I do think it would be pretty cool to have NFL-Europe (aka, the Summer League) in the game, just to see how my guy is actually playing over there. Maybe even the Canadian league running in the background to scout.

But much more then that would be major overkill for me and would be avoided.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I never found the "as many countries as possible" angle of EHM to that distracting at all. I basically played the game as a NHL sim. Other than sending my scouts to Russia, Czech Republic, Sweden, Finland, and other "European" hockey hot beds and keeping track of my prospects in those respective countries, and International tournaments, I never really paid any attention at all to what was going on anywhere else in the world. I found it pretty easy to ignore and it didn't affect my enjoyment of the game at all.

Given the number of European-born players in the NHL, any self-respecting NHL sim would have to include European leagues or at least generate players from those leagues to build a draft.

There is a real-lieft dynamic between the NHL and foreign leagues. I think it's great that the game captured that. The fact that the foreign leagues were actually playable is just gravy for my European brothers and sisters.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I do think it would be pretty cool to have NFL-Europe (aka, the Summer League) in the game, just to see how my guy is actually playing over there. Maybe even the Canadian league running in the background to scout.

But much more then that would be major overkill for me and would be avoided.

Outside of NFL Europe or maybe the Canadian league, it wouldn't make sense for a NFL sim to have other leagues. For all intents and purposes, it's college ball and the NFL. That's it.

Not including European teams, or at least players from these teams, in a NHL game would be like not having players available from the PAC-10 and ACC or something.

Baseball is a bit of a grey area. I don't follow baseball all that closely, but I know there is interaction between MLB and Japan (for a small number of players) and there are many South American born players, but I don't know how those leagues and MLB interact.

[Izulde]

I'm also someone who enjoyed the freeware version a lot more than the EHM versions. I've tried the demo for the EHMs, but the FM interface really left me cold, so I didn't buy either one.

To be honest, I didn't buy the latest FM, either. Yes, there's a fun game there, but I like to play with as many leagues as possible, but at the same time, the ungodly slow simming speed means I have to play with a lot fewer leagues than I'd like to.

This leads to me feeling that I'm missing something and not getting as much enjoyment out of the game as I should. I also have always hated the 1-20 rating system and really wanted a 1-100 rating system.

[Honolulu Blue]

HB #2 here.

This is tragic, but I feel most badly for my evil twin. This was his dream game, and to have his dream taken away... just terrible.

[astrosfan64]

SI Games:

I'm not sure how to explain this but let me try. FM is simply the best text simmulation ever created out of all genre's. I mean it is a great game.

The sucess of FM and the rich feature set really has hurt my enjoyment of over text simmulations. I like soccer, but I LOVE BASKETBALL and HOCKEY. But, everytime I would start to play EHM or Total Pro Basketball I would stop about a day or two into it, because they simply did not have the same depth that FM included.

Playing a text sim is a commitment of time. If I'm going to take all that time and put myself in the world, I want the most feature complete game I can get my hands on.

The only reason I play FOF or Bowl Bound is that it is football. Football is way different then basketball, hockey or soccer. The game itself isn't free flowing, there is a chess like side to them in coach mode.

So your sucess of FM I believe, hampers the sucess of any similiar sport. Unless you create EHM with the same feature set of the current FM the end user always feels like they are playing FM from about 2 years ago instead of the new hockey game.

I think you guys are safe with baseball or even American Football because the sports are so different then Soccer, Hockey and Basketball.

Anyway, that is my two cents.

Oh, can you guys please just come out and say how many copies you sold?

One more question, how many total copies do you believe were pirated? Out of those copies pirated, what % do you believe would of bought the game if they couldn't of gotten the game pirated.

Actually I lied one more point.

League License and Player Names are not that important at all. If at all possible, I think you guys would be better off dropping all that stuff and just making your game with a lower development cost. I think eventually you guys would be ok. People would just create mods for both of those and it wouldn't even be an issue.

[Buccaneer]

I really wished I had not read about the warez downloads. :mad:

[Honolulu_Blue]

HB #2 here.

This is tragic, but I feel most badly for my evil twin. This was his dream game, and to have his dream taken away... just terrible.

Thanks for looking out for me, HB! That's why you're the good twin. :)

[sabotai]

That makes me a sad panda. :(

[sabotai]

dola,

On the piracy issue, normally I'd agree that "piracy" as an excuse is just that, an excuse. However, from the sound of the original post, the latest game did as well in the US/Canada as the previous one, and did a notch below the previous one in most of Europe. Again, from the sound of it, the lack of the Scandinavian market killed the game, and from what we're getting from Coder, software piracy is a huge problem there, so I do believe that it was a large part of the problem.

Sadly, this is what happens when your product depends on making a killing in a small market. If that market doesn't show up, it doesn't matter that it does just as well everwhere else (and from the sound of it, EHM 2007 did), your product will die. No blame on SI as they don't control the markets, but it's sad to see it happen.

[sabotai]

double dola,

And if this latest patch fixes "The Great Decline", expect a new dynasty from me. :)

[Emiliano]

I never played EHM because I'm not a hockey fan, but unfortunate to see any game in the text sim genre go away, let alone when it is because of Pirating.

Ditto. Very sad.

[CraigSca]

Chalk me up as another guy saddened by this news.

I think I downloaded the demo a while ago, but never really got into the game so I never purchased. Really, it was a combination of lowered interest in the sport and too much going on in the game.

I know others love it, but I'm not a big fan of the FM interface. I've purchased FM sporadically, and while I appreciate its depth, I find the games interface and inherent slowness playing a factor in me not loading up the game.

Personally, I really don't understand the love affair of more and more leagues. Even in the FOF world I still hear a lot of "wouldn't it be great to have semi-pro football, too?" I look at it as a standard bang vs. buck issue. Yes, it would be great to have a really slick looking interface, but not if it's going to cause me frustration trying to get to some information that I want to access. Yes, it sounds cool to have semi-pro, Canadian, etc., football in a football sim, but not if a week of games takes 5 mins to sim.

The other issue surrounding the addition of more and more leagues is the player can quickly feel like he's losing control of the game. There's just only so much data a single person can comprehend and apply in a short period of time. Hey, it would be cool to have an Earth simulation with weather, population, wars, etc., but I think the only purchaser would be God, as He'd be the only one able to grasp it.

[CraigSca]

dola

...and it really disappoints me that one of the triggers behind this news is the pirating of the game. Why people think it's okay to steal is beyond me. You can get into excuses about MMORPGs and the fact there are just so many releases out there ("there's so much candy in the candy store, I just HAD to take some, officer!"), but the bottom line is you're stealing. People dehumanize it to make themselves feel better, but it's just a lousy excuse so you don't have to be responsible for your garbage behavior.

[Maple Leafs]

My inability to get into the SI version of EHM was probably my biggest surprise in terms of gaming. On paper it was the perfect game for me, but I could just never get going with it. Too detailed, too slow, too cumbersome for my personal playing style (and no doubt just right for others -- that's just how it goes).

Still sad news.

[Coder]

dola

...and it really disappoints me that one of the triggers behind this news is the pirating of the game. Why people think it's okay to steal is beyond me. You can get into excuses about MMORPGs and the fact there are just so many releases out there ("there's so much candy in the candy store, I just HAD to take some, officer!"), but the bottom line is you're stealing. People dehumanize it to make themselves feel better, but it's just a lousy excuse so you don't have to be responsible for your garbage behavior.

I hope you also read that I mentioned it as a potential REASON, I wasn't making any excuses for it.

Bottom line is that piracy won't go away.. to battle piracy, software companies (and record labels) need to re-consider their strategies and pricing-policys.

[duff88]

This may look ridiculous to some of you, but this is a real question and I hope someone may answer honestly:

Why can OOTP get away with no pirate version of the game being available anywhere while EHM got pirated as soon as it came out? Could there have been a way the developpers of EHM to prevent piracy?

[Icy]

This may look ridiculous to some of you, but this is a real question and I hope someone may answer honestly:

Why can OOTP get away with no pirate version of the game being available anywhere while EHM got pirated as soon as it came out? Could there have been a way the developpers of EHM to prevent piracy?

As i said before, OOTP was not released physically in a CD/DVD while EHM was. I have not seen ever an elicense game pirated while you can find all the CD/DVD games in any torrent site. The future of the games will be online distribution as the music and movies industry is starting to realize too.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Bottom line is that piracy won't go away.. to battle piracy, software companies (and record labels) need to re-consider their strategies and pricing-policys.

I think the strategy has been "reconsidered", to "this isn't worth the cost anymore".

So much for the whole "pirates just mean more salez, so pirating roxors" argument.

[JPhillips]

I just did a search on TorrentSpy and found EHM and FM2007, but no OOTP. If it's true that SI could stop pirating with a download only release it means that pirating wasn't the only reason for killing the game. I believe Marc Vaughan admitted this earlier by saying it was a contributing cause.

I'm not trying to defend piracy here, but if SI could take steps to stop or drastically reduce piracy but chose not to there's obviously more going on with the decision to kill EHM.

[duff88]

I've seen a lot of people talk about it, but I'll say it anyway since this is (was) an important issue.

I live in a Canadian city named Chicoutimi in Quebec where there are tons of hockey fans, but I've never, ever heard one single person talk about Eastside Hockey Manager. I know SI is based in europe, but the Canadian market is probably the one that needs to be gained if you want to optimize sales and it certainly couldn't work with the way nobody even knew about the game.

Meanwhile, there was this other Hockey Manager game named "GM Hockey Renaissance" which was only average and it didn't even come close to the freeware EHM, yet I saw it on TV and I heard people talking about it, so there definitely would have been interest for EHM.

[BrianD]

So much for the whole "pirates just mean more salez, so pirating roxors" argument.

I don't think this was ever an argument in the gaming world, only in the music world. Pirating could (in theory) bring more people to the concerts and encourage people to buy other entries in the artist's catalog, but there is no real parallel to the gaming world.

Having said that, I don't think you can claim any benefits to pirating, other than personal benefits to the pirate. I do believe, however, that while pirating is more harmful than the average pirate believes, it is probably less harmful than the gaming/recording industry believes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

yet I saw it on TV ...

Now this little tidbit just fascinates the hell out of me. Did you "see it on TV" as in they were running commercials for it? Or was it mentioned in passing on a hockey program of some sort? Or ... well, I dunno what else but anything's possible.

The economics of doing tv spots for a game of this nature would make a standard commercial one of the most unlikely things I've ever heard of advertising, so I'm really curious about the details if you happen to remember.

[Carman Bulldog]

From my understanding EHM 2007 was never available in a DVD/CD format so I'm not sure how it would have been pirated. While this could be true for previous versions, this piracy argument does not hold any water for this years version.

The biggest problem was they they were trying to be too much to too many people. I'm privileged enough to work in the hockey industry and made a number of suggestions on how to improve and make the Canadian Hockey League aspect more realistic and entertaining. Unfortunately, those often fell by the wayside.

I think that the league was kind of looked at as unimportant. Well, the league was included, fixing stuff and adding stuff never seemed like a high priority.

If the game wanted to be big in North America (and specifically Canada) it needed to focus on these aspects. I think a game with only the NHL, AHL and CHL (and potentially the ECHL) would have been more appealing.

The name is awful from a marketing perspective too. I understand the roots and have been a fan of the old EHM since before 1.0 but it's tough to sell NHL:EHM Manager.

[FrogMan]

I've seen a lot of people talk about it, but I'll say it anyway since this is (was) an important issue.

I live in a Canadian city named Chicoutimi in Quebec where there are tons of hockey fans, but I've never, ever heard one single person talk about Eastside Hockey Manager. I know SI is based in europe, but the Canadian market is probably the one that needs to be gained if you want to optimize sales and it certainly couldn't work with the way nobody even knew about the game.

Meanwhile, there was this other Hockey Manager game named "GM Hockey Renaissance" which was only average and it didn't even come close to the freeware EHM, yet I saw it on TV and I heard people talking about it, so there definitely would have been interest for EHM.

Now this little tidbit just fascinates the hell out of me. Did you "see it on TV" as in they were running commercials for it? Or was it mentioned in passing on a hockey program of some sort? Or ... well, I dunno what else but anything's possible.

The economics of doing tv spots for a game of this nature would make a standard commercial one of the most unlikely things I've ever heard of advertising, so I'm really curious about the details if you happen to remember.

Jon, read the quote again, duff seems to be talking about that GM hockey renaissance game which I'd never heard about before and seems to be developped by a Quebec group. That simply tells me it was probably featured by a French Canadian TV station in one of the numerous hockey shows we have on a weekly basis.

Sure, there might be a market in Quebec, but we're talking about 7M people here, let's not get all excited with how locally a local game can be talked about and how EHM could have done better.

I tried finding last year's EHM version in stores around here and I have to say I was very disappointed that nobody at the local EB Games and such game store had not even heard about it...

FM

[Maple Leafs]

I live in a Canadian city named Chicoutimi in Quebec where there are tons of hockey fans, but I've never, ever heard one single person talk about Eastside Hockey Manager. I know SI is based in europe, but the Canadian market is probably the one that needs to be gained if you want to optimize sales and it certainly couldn't work with the way nobody even knew about the game.
Do you get The Score (the channel with the perma-ticker, formerly Headline Sports) in Quebec? SI was all over that channel last year with sponsored segments.

[FrogMan]

dola, and that GM hockey renaissance thing has been in development since August 2005...

and their website (http://www.logiqueeclectic.net/GMen/Homeen.htm) suggest Baseball Mogul 2007 as a good game. Don't know what that tells you...

FM

[FrogMan]

Do you get The Score (the channel with the perma-ticker, formerly Headline Sports) in Quebec? SI was all over that channel last year with sponsored segments.

I do get The Score but I think I really am in the minority, if only due to my digital TV provider (Look TV). I'm unsure if it's available on analog cable, might be on other digital TV provider, hidden in some sports channels package...

FM

[Coder]

The Canadian market is where the money's at.. I can only look at the FHL-board and see that French Canadians especially just love their Hockey.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I do get The Score but I think I really am in the minority, if only due to my digital TV provider (Look TV). I'm unsure if it's available on analog cable, might be on other digital TV provider, hidden in some sports channels package...

FM

FWIW, looks like they are in about half the TV households in Canada. They have 5.9 million distribution & there's a little over 12 million TV households in the country.

Given that cable has about 60%-65% penetration of the market (23% have satellite), that 5.9 million number might look better (in terms of their reach with cable) depending on whether they're available on satellite.

[FrogMan]

FWIW, looks like they are in about half the TV households in Canada. They have 5.9 million distribution & there's a little over 12 million TV households in the country.

Given that cable has about 60%-65% penetration of the market (23% have satellite), that 5.9 million number might look better (in terms of their reach with cable) depending on whether they're available on satellite.


I don't think your numbers can apply straight up to Quebec though. Remember, the province is majorly French speaking so not always inclined to subscribe to some English speaking channel of that sort. I can tell you that if I did a quick poll with my coworkers here, many of them big hockey and sports fans in general, I'd find less than 5% of them have ever heard of The Score. The province of Quebec is a world within a world in terms of television and entertainment.

FM

[FrogMan]

dola, obviously, I don't have hard numbers to back my claim, simply how I feel from talking with people.

FM

[Coder]

Hockey-game related question to everyone

I've seen many posts here about people not being interested in "other leagues". From a "playing in"-perspective I'm with you, but what about seeing junior players before they're drafted and after they're drafted.

In hockey, most drafted players don't sign their pro-contract right away, instead they stay in their junior teams for 1-2 years. Are you saying you're not interested in seeing their statistics from those leagues or are you just saying you don't want to play in those leagues?

[JonInMiddleGA]

dola, obviously, I don't have hard numbers to back my claim, simply how I feel from talking with people.

Sometimes actually knowing a market tells the story better than the numbers anyway.

There's definitely some distribution in Quebec though, because the network's FAQ mentions how contests (which are apparently a regular feature in the ticker best I could figure out) aren't open to Quebec residents due to local laws.

[FrogMan]

Sometimes actually knowing a market tells the story better than the numbers anyway.

As I said, Quebec is a market within the market, simply because of the language of many people. Take my sister and parents for example. They all speak a little English but none of them have your basic network stations (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX) as part of their TV programming. So, "The Score"??? I doubt it. And they're not really dumb, I'd think they do represent the average Quebecer.


There's definitely some distribution in Quebec though, because the network's FAQ mentions how contests (which are apparently a regular feature in the ticker best I could figure out) aren't open to Quebec residents due to local laws.

It's standard procedure the moment something a contest might be seen by Quebec residents. As I said, I get the channel, so it's definitely available. I just checked on videotron.com, the main cable TV provider in Quebec, and it's also available on their digital cable lineup but not on their analogic cable lineup. And again, given the nature of the beast we're talking about, "available" does not equal "subscribed to".

FM

[JonInMiddleGA]

And again, given the nature of the beast we're talking about, "available" does not equal "subscribed to".

These days when cable networks talk about "available in", that's typically jargon for "number of household subscribers". Not always, but that's usually the case, as the two terms have evolved into being somewhat interchangable. Heck, I'd have to go back & look at their exact wording again to see whether that was their phrasing or mine.

Where that number quickly parts from reality is when you get down to "households where anybody watches or even knows/care that the network exists".

[FrogMan]

These days when cable networks talk about "available in", that's typically jargon for "number of household subscribers". Not always, but that's usually the case, as the two terms have evolved into being somewhat interchangable. Heck, I'd have to go back & look at their exact wording again to see whether that was their phrasing or mine.


then, there's probably a high percentage of that first figure you brought up that is all in English Canadian, I'd think...


Where that number quickly parts from reality is when you get down to "households where anybody watches or even knows/care that the network exists".

and there you have it... :)

FM

[Chubby]

I'm also someone who enjoyed the freeware version a lot more than the EHM versions. I've tried the demo for the EHMs, but the FM interface really left me cold, so I didn't buy either one.

To be honest, I didn't buy the latest FM, either. Yes, there's a fun game there, but I like to play with as many leagues as possible, but at the same time, the ungodly slow simming speed means I have to play with a lot fewer leagues than I'd like to.

This leads to me feeling that I'm missing something and not getting as much enjoyment out of the game as I should. I also have always hated the 1-20 rating system and really wanted a 1-100 rating system.

what he said

[Maple Leafs]

Hockey-game related question to everyone

I've seen many posts here about people not being interested in "other leagues". From a "playing in"-perspective I'm with you, but what about seeing junior players before they're drafted and after they're drafted.

In hockey, most drafted players don't sign their pro-contract right away, instead they stay in their junior teams for 1-2 years. Are you saying you're not interested in seeing their statistics from those leagues or are you just saying you don't want to play in those leagues?
For me, it wasn't so much the idea of multiple leagues but the implementation. I'd love to see junior leagues and the AHL, and even the elite european leagues. I love the idea of EHM having things like the World Juniors that I can see my prospects play in. Again, on paper it's great.

But in practice, it slowed everything down so much that it was an annoyance. I don't just mean sim speed, either. My first EHM experience was getting an e-mail telling me that some prospect in Europe had received an offer in Switzerland, and what did I want to do about it? Beats me, since I've never heard of the guy and have no idea what was happening or why I was being informed. I think he ended up signing with the other team, and to this day I have no idea if that had any effect on my rights to him or anything else.

Again, though, this is for someone like me who likes to speed sim through a season in an hour or two. For someone more detail-oriented it could be a great feature.

[duff88]

I'll have to agree with what Frogman (Man, I hate your username) said; I don't know many people that have the Score arond here, and even less that watch it. I think the first time I heard someone talk about the network was when WWE Raw was transfered there from TSN.

BTW, the GM Hockey Renaissance TV spot was some kind of feature they showed during Sports 30 on RDS (French version of Sportscenter on TSN).

There was so much potential for this game in Canada...

[General Mike]

This sucks. :(

[Bea-Arthurs Hip]

I am very torn up about this. As much as I love FOF and FM , I have to say EHM is my favorite game/series of all time. I had such great hopes for this game.

I also have to admit that most of the reason I come to this forum everday is to look for EHM stories int he Dynasty forum, then to the Off Topic forum to see if Riz and the gang made an appearance. This is a blow to my little Sim world.
:mad:
I dont know if The Hip is gonna make it through this....

what worse EHM gone or FPS FB gone?

[Pumpy Tudors]

In a really perverse way, I wish that jbmagic had made an "EHM looking good in preseason" post.

[NoSkillz]

:( What awful, awful news.

I've been working on Eastside in a research capacity since the freeware days and I've been a HR since Riz was hired by SI over four years ago.

It's truly been a wonderful experience watching the game develop into the best simulator of hockey ever built.

I wish all of the staffers at SI who worked on this labour of love (Riz, Graeme, Phil, Marc D) along with all the researchers (like JeffR, who frequents this board) the best of luck in the future. It's truly been my pleasure.

If you're interested in some (long-winded) backstory into how my participation came about, feel free to check out my blog post here (http://bleedingblueandgold.blogspot.com/2007/01/kind-of-off-topic-sad-day-nhl-ehm.html).

[Cringer]

Came across this while looking through some tech sites I still go to for some reason...

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070131-8743.html

Company ends hockey-sim development due to piracy
1/31/2007 12:12:58 PM, by Eric Bangeman

Development of a popular hockey sim, Eastside Hockey Manager 2007, has come to a close due to widespread piracy. In a post on the Sports Interactive forums, SI Managing Director Miles Jacobson announced that while the latest version of Eastside Hockey Manager had garnered good reviews, piracy of the title had prevented it from hitting the break-even point.

Sports Interactive had made Eastside Hockey Manager 2007 available only via digital distribution in an attempt to give the game a wider reach in Europe and North America. Unfortunately for Sports Interactive, the end result was a hacked version of the game that was quickly distributed via BitTorrent.

"The orders came in a drizzle, rather than a flood," wrote Jacobson. "We scratched our heads trying to work out what had gone wrong. And then someone pointed out that the game was being pirated, and was available as a torrent from lots of different pirating sites. Then sat there and watched as the claimed amount of downloads on those sites went up and up, as sales stayed static."

The end result was a popular game that had "more licenses than any other hockey game in history," according to Jacobson, but was apparently so widely distributed over peer-to-peer networks that the company was not able to make back the development or licensing costs. Although Jacobson left open the possibility that SI may resurrect Eastside Hockey Manager in the future, he said that all development on the game has been halted and the programmers and others that worked on the title have been reassigned to other projects within the company.

We've been scratching our heads up here in the Orbiting HQ trying to think of other games that have been killed off due to piracy, and we couldn't think of any. There have been warnings before: in early 2004, Mac game developers and porting houses warned that increasing piracy could kill off the Mac game market. That hasn't happened, as Mac OS X game development has continued at its historic, anemic levels.

Putting aside for a minute the economic arguments about piracy and its effects on the record labels, movie studios, and big gaming development houses, it appears that for smaller, niche games, piracy can make or break a title. Development costs have been climbing at an increased rate over the past several years, and if file-sharing traffic makes it impossible for developers and publishers to recoup their costs, other titles could go the way of Eastside Hockey Manager.

[SirFozzie]

I'm sorry, piracy did not kill the EHM series.

A lack of sales did.

Two released games in a near beta state did.

The games are good.. EIGHT MONTHS Later.

How many sales do you make eight months after release?

This is why I'm starting to get really disappointed with the DDS:PB game.

It's time for developers big and small to learn one thing.

90% of your sales and reputation comes from your first 30 days.

Releasing a bug laden first release is nearly impossible to overcome, even if patches make the game better. By that point, a big part of your audience has tuned you AND your game out, for good.

[Joe Canadian]

Sadly I knew this was coming, or at least I had a good idea it was. A few months ago someone within SI, no need to mention any names, let me know sales were very low and that SI has been subsidizing EHM through FM sales since the start of the series.

Blaming this on piracy is an interesting spin to put on it, and while it might have been a contributing factor it's not the reason sales were low... we all know the reason for that. The games were released too early and unfinished. Don't get me wrong EHM 2007 is a great game, tonnes of promise, the guy's who made it are great... but there were too many bugs.

IMO, SI had to grab the North American market with this game for it to be successful, and that means getting people at places like FOFC or OOTPD to (a) buy the game, and (b) spread th word. And we all know how we react to unfinished games, we'll give it a pass the first time... but after a while we'll just stop buying the game on release and wait till the bugs are fixed... and eventually some might just ignore the series of games altogether. That's what happened here.

Call it EHM-hatred if you want, but that's just ignoring the problem... the problem wasn't that there were people out there who hated the game for no reason, it was that there were big issues with the game that people had problems with.

... anyways, I'm really sad this is the end of the line for EHM. SI is a great company that makes high quality games, it's too bad one of them isn't going to be hockey anymore. :(

[RedKingGold]

I'm sorry, piracy did not kill the EHM series.

A lack of sales did.

Two released games in a near beta state did.

The games are good.. EIGHT MONTHS Later.

How many sales do you make eight months after release?

This is why I'm starting to get really disappointed with the DDS:PB game.

It's time for developers big and small to learn one thing.

90% of your sales and reputation comes from your first 30 days.

Releasing a bug laden first release is nearly impossible to overcome, even if patches make the game better. By that point, a big part of your audience has tuned you AND your game out, for good.

Wow, pretty harsh words. I have no idea what goes on in game programming (and it appears neither do you), but newly released computer games ALWAYS have some type of game-killing bug that needs a first patch. Even FOF2K7 had some issues that made it largely unplayable until the first patch; and in some cases even more unplayable after the 3rd patch (anyone remember the red/green bars controversy?). Fact is, to be so critical of a company and claim that the downfall of a product is the sheer fault of bugs is foolish.

[sachmo71]

Wow, pretty harsh words. I have no idea what goes on in game programming (and it appears neither do you), but newly released computer games ALWAYS have some type of game-killing bug that needs a first patch. Even FOF2K7 had some issues that made it largely unplayable until the first patch; and in some cases even more unplayable after the 3rd patch (anyone remember the red/green bars controversy?). Fact is, to be so critical of a company and claim that the downfall of a product is the sheer fault of bugs is foolish.


And it really doesn't have to be this way. People just have to be willing to wait longer. As long as people buy the games in droves when it first hits the shelves, the companies have no incentive to work on them longer; the incentive is to get them out by a certain date to boost their sales figures.

[vtbub]

Wow, pretty harsh words. I have no idea what goes on in game programming (and it appears neither do you), but newly released computer games ALWAYS have some type of game-killing bug that needs a first patch. Even FOF2K7 had some issues that made it largely unplayable until the first patch; and in some cases even more unplayable after the 3rd patch (anyone remember the red/green bars controversy?). Fact is, to be so critical of a company and claim that the downfall of a product is the sheer fault of bugs is foolish.


Actually, I think Foz is dead on about this. For whatever reason, the expectation from developers, while not intentionial, is for us to be paying beta testers.

Why should I be spending $35-$50 on a game that isn't finished, or spend a discount to get a pre-order of a game that isn't finished? We, as consumers, are just as much to blame as the developers, because it's become accpeted that there will be multiple patches to a game.

IMHO, that's wrong. Look at the TDCB debacle. You had a game hyped to death. You had tons of of us with credit cards at the ready to buy it at it's release, and it was a dud, riddled with bugs that killed it.

Initial impressions are vital in any business. Look how quickly they pull TV shows off the air.

If there is enough potential in a release, we are patient enough to get the product that we want, or in FOF's case, the developer has a solid enough reputation that we are willing to wait it out.

Look at Maximum-Football. Do you think even if he developed what he promised that he could overcome the self inflicted blood bath that happened with that game?

Look at OOTP. There are promised features that have never come to fruition. There were noted bugs that were never fixed from version to version, yet more and more features were introduced and people bought it. Somehow, I knew that the switch over to SI would be a tough one the first year, so I didn't buy it. And judging by the reaction, I was right.

So here we are again, 6 million new features announced with smiley faces and the like and the orders will come. But, not from me. I've been fooled too many times, and I will not pay $34.95 to support a franchise that will have what it promises in March to be ironed out by September.

Without getting into the marketing issues with SI products over here, you could see why piracy was an issue. I was on a torrent site last night for a TV show and saw 5 or 6 diferent FM torrents on the first page.

(No, I didn't)

Bottom line, development processes need to be changed to work these kinks out before you come asking for money. Developers and consumers should be expecting finished products upon release that need tweaking at worst, not 95% finished products.

[Tekneek]

Why should I be spending $35-$50 on a game that isn't finished, or spend a discount to get a pre-order of a game that isn't finished? We, as consumers, are just as much to blame as the developers, because it's become accpeted that there will be multiple patches to a game.

You are right. This seems to go across all genres. The only games that seem to have an acceptable 'finished rate' to them when purchased are a lot of the games my son has, who is 6. Most of his stuff works like it should out of the box. It is almost never like that for anything I would buy. For various reasons, my funds for games are at an all-time low, so I am pickier than ever before. For this reason, I am not buying anything that isn't 'finished' according to both the developers and the customer base.

[Fidatelo]

Games are buggy on release because:
a) people want more and more features, which add complication, which leads to bugs; and
b) no one wants to pay more for games, which means timelines must remain static to ensure profitability, which in turn means there is not enough time to fix all the bugs.

There is a balance between time, features, and quality. If you don't include enough new features and focus strictly on quality, no one buys your product because they don't see enough value. If you spend too much time packing in features and not enough time making sure they work, people will revolt because the game is shite. And if you spend the proper amount of time needed to pack in a bunch of quality features, you probably lose money because no one will pay for that extra time spent.

[RedKingGold]

Someone name me a perfect game with zero flaws.

(and Tetris doesn't count :p)

[Eaglesfan27]

Actually, I think Foz is dead on about this. For whatever reason, the expectation from developers, while not intentionial, is for us to be paying beta testers.

Why should I be spending $35-$50 on a game that isn't finished, or spend a discount to get a pre-order of a game that isn't finished? We, as consumers, are just as much to blame as the developers, because it's become accpeted that there will be multiple patches to a game.

IMHO, that's wrong. Look at the TDCB debacle. You had a game hyped to death. You had tons of of us with credit cards at the ready to buy it at it's release, and it was a dud, riddled with bugs that killed it.

Initial impressions are vital in any business. Look how quickly they pull TV shows off the air.

If there is enough potential in a release, we are patient enough to get the product that we want, or in FOF's case, the developer has a solid enough reputation that we are willing to wait it out.

Look at Maximum-Football. Do you think even if he developed what he promised that he could overcome the self inflicted blood bath that happened with that game?

Look at OOTP. There are promised features that have never come to fruition. There were noted bugs that were never fixed from version to version, yet more and more features were introduced and people bought it. Somehow, I knew that the switch over to SI would be a tough one the first year, so I didn't buy it. And judging by the reaction, I was right.

So here we are again, 6 million new features announced with smiley faces and the like and the orders will come. But, not from me. I've been fooled too many times, and I will not pay $34.95 to support a franchise that will have what it promises in March to be ironed out by September.

Without getting into the marketing issues with SI products over here, you could see why piracy was an issue. I was on a torrent site last night for a TV show and saw 5 or 6 diferent FM torrents on the first page.

(No, I didn't)

Bottom line, development processes need to be changed to work these kinks out before you come asking for money. Developers and consumers should be expecting finished products upon release that need tweaking at worst, not 95% finished products.


Great post. I agree with everything in this post. Also, it makes me appreciate Jim's approach more. FOF 2007 had some problems when it was released, but a much lower frequency than most games and Jim patched those problems much faster than most (if not all) other companies.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm sorry, piracy did not kill the EHM series.
A lack of sales did.

Up to that point, I would agree.

The question then becomes what was the root cause of the lack of sales.

Or, more specifically, what was the primary cause of the lack of sales.

And even more specifically, what was the primary cause of the lack of adequate sales to make continuing the series viable.

And that last distinction is where I believe the piracy comes into play. If we take the company's statement at face value (if we don't, then discussion becomes pretty moot, so just play along), then it isn't hard to follow a line from the piracy in key locations to the decision to end the series.

Reading between the lines a bit, it looks as though they were at least within tolerable limits of their sales expectations in many areas, but fell quite a bit short in what had been one of their primary locations, which has been attributed to the impact of piracy (something that our posters in that area seem to believe is plausible at worst).

Take me as an example. You're right, piracy had nothing to do with why I didn't buy the latest release, the amount of bugs at release & in the short time afterwards had everything to do with it. But they weren't counting on my purchase to keep the game afloat, they were counting on the Scandanavian sales to fall within certain parameters. It seems unlikely that (making up numbers here, just for illustration) that you would miss targets by 10% in every area except one but fall 60% short in that spot. Then if there's a connection made to a rise in piracy in that area, the causation isn't proven but does become a prime suspect.

[Coder]

It seems unlikely that (making up numbers here, just for illustration) that you would miss targets by 10% in every area except one but fall 60% short in that spot. Then if there's a connection made to a rise in piracy in that area, the causation isn't proven but does become a prime suspect.

Without taking back any of what I've said earlier about a rise in piracy in Scandinavia, I'd like to emphasize another issue I mentioned in my post. Scandinavians are very uncomfortable with using credit cards online. I think that if you want to break into the Scandinavian markets, online sale only is not going to work.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think that if you want to break into the Scandinavian markets, online sale only is not going to work.

I thought there was a retail/boxed version available there as well as the d'load version :confused:

[Coder]

I thought there was a retail/boxed version available there as well as the d'load version :confused:

Nope, download only.

[CraigSca]

I don't get it. I thought that's how a pirated version was available - from the CD version.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nope, download only.

My bad, thanks.

To be honest, I long since lost the ability to keep track of what version was available where with the SI products.

[Coder]

I don't get it. I thought that's how a pirated version was available - from the CD version.

I have no clue how pirates got a version working, but there is no CD version available in any stores or online-stores.

[Coder]

dola: I'm also curious to hear from SI how they advertised the game in Scandinavia. I don't read gaming-magazines, so I won't have seen any ads in there. The only advertisement of games I'm exposed to is when I visit an EB or any other computer game store. If I hadn't been at FOFC I wouldn't have known there was a new EHM out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If I hadn't been at FOFC I wouldn't have known there was a new EHM out.

I could say that about pretty much every computer game I've played in the past several years. The same holds true about tabletop games & the forums at Delphi.

It's something I've looked at a few times, the problem is that the cost of advertising almost always outweighs the potential sales that would be generated for all but the largest of releases (think "Gears of War", at least in the US where the campaign was very large for the industry).

[Coder]

I could say that about pretty much every computer game I've played in the past several years. The same holds true about tabletop games & the forums at Delphi.

Speaking of which... (tabletop).. well.. I'm not going to threadjack, so I'll send you a PM instead :)

[scooter]

In SI's original post in their forums, Miles Jacobson stated that the game had been hacked prior to release. I don't remember exactly, but I think the demo was released first and then the actual game. I guess I would assume that someone hacked the demo or otherwise had help from the "inside" in order to have something posted prior to the full game's release.

[Karim]

I don't think it's a good business decision to make all SI-games look so much alike for the simple reason that FM is so outstanding. The likeness in the games make a comparison with FM next to impossible and it makes all other games feel watered down.

This is a good point but I also understand that SI doesn't want to re-invent the wheel. They have a solid codebase (FM) from which to work from. A completely new, creative, re-design would add months and $ to the development of a non-football game.

[Marc Duffy]

I have no clue how pirates got a version working, but there is no CD version available in any stores or online-stores.
There was a very limited CD version that was sent to licensors for their stores and to give to their teams.