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View Full Version : Solevision: More insight into our players?


Ben E Lou
02-02-2007, 07:09 PM
I watched my preseason game in IHOF very slowly, and copied some text from it that looked interesting. I'm starting to suspect that Solevision is not only just a really cool way to watch a game, but that it also is giving us deeper insight into how ratings translate into on-the-field performance. Note the bolded text, and my comments below each. Some of these existed in FOF2K4, but I thought I'd include them as well.


Tucker comes out in the I formation, the right side is strong.
The defense comes out in a 43 alignment and 3-deep zone coverage.
They are aggressively expecting a pass. Zastudil is blitzing.
Shaun Duncan fields the snap and drops back to pass.
Duncan evaded the rush and will run the ball.
He runs for 4 yards.
Duncan's sense rush is 80. His scramble frequency is 53.



The offense is in the I formation, with strength on the right side.
Fairbanks is in a 43 alignment with 4-deep zone coverage.
They are aggressively expecting the run. Westbrook, Harbert and Hookfin are blitzing.
Shaun Duncan takes the snap and heads back.
Duncan avoids the rush and decides to scramble.
He runs for 7 yards.
He was stopped by Andre Kitna.
Again, 80 sense rush, 53 scramble freq.



Tucker is lined up in a Single-Back formation, aligned to the left.
The defense is in a 43 and weak-side man, otherwise cover-7 zone coverage.
They are keying on the pass.
Shaun Duncan fields the snap and drops back to pass.
Duncan chucks a medium distance pass intended for Wide Receiver Harris Douglas.
He's throwing away from the double coverage.
Douglas caught the pass.
That's good for 9 yards.
He was brought down by Outside Linebacker Alex Westbrook.
We know that throwing away from double coverage is "read defense."




The offense is in the Single-Back formation with trips receivers, with strength on the right side.
Fairbanks is in a 43 alignment with 2-deep man-to-man coverage.
They are aggressively expecting the run. Hookfin is blitzing.
Shaun Duncan receives the snap from center.
Duncan avoids the rush, and tosses a medium pass to Wide Receiver Harris Douglas.
Douglas caught the pass.
That's good for 14 yards.
He was tackled by Cornerback Glen Inmon, with the assist to Safety Jack Phillips.
That's good for a first down.
There's a flag down. Fairbanks was penalized for Defensive Holding. The penalty was declined.
Avoid rush and scramble frequency?




Tucker is in an I formation with two tight ends, strength is right.
The defense shows the 43 look with strong-side man, otherwise cover-7 zone coverage.
Fairbanks is gambling on a run play. Sellers is blitzing.
The Solution Duncan receives the snap from center.
Duncan fires a medium length pass to Running Back R.J. Ellard.
The ball falls incomplete.
That was not a good throw at all.
Bad throw, impacted by his 46 medium pass rating?




The offense is in the Single-Back formation with trips receivers, with strength on the right side.
Fairbanks is in a 43 alignment with 2-deep man-to-man coverage.
They are expecting a pass play. Hookfin and Kitna are blitzing.
Shaun Duncan receives the snap from center.
Duncan steps forward, and hurls a long pass to Wide Receiver Forrest Truett.
Truett caught the pass.
That's good for 20 yards.
Cornerback Ben Greer made the tackle.
The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field.
That's good for a first down.
Truett's 73 courage rating?




Tucker comes out in the I formation, the left side is the strong side.
The defense comes out in a 43 alignment and 3-deep zone coverage.
They are aggressively expecting a pass. Sellers and Harbert are blitzing.
Shaun Duncan steps back from the center.
He hands the ball to Archie Trantham.
Trantham runs around the left tackle.
Offensive Tackle Leon Propst makes a big opening for Trantham.
Trantham finds a huge opening in the defense.
The run is good for 11 yards.
He was tackled by Defensive End Darren Walsh.
And that's a first down.
I'm wondering if we just saw two different ratings coming into play there. Propst gets the KRB, but then Trantham's hole recognition (34) kicked in. IHe had 27 carries on the day, but this was the only time that any of the "finds a hole" verbiage was used for him.




Fairbanks is lined up in a Single-Back formation with trips receivers, aligned to the right.
The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage.
They are keying on the pass.
The Mutant Allen takes the snap.
Harry Welch gets the ball from the quarterback.
Welch runs a blast play inside the left guard.
B.J. Schafer knocked down Winston Branch to break up the play.
The ball carrier gained 2 yards.
Outside Linebacker Leland Crabb is credited with the tackle, with an assist from Inside Linebacker Van Martyn.
I am inclined to think that "pass rush strength" is also used on running plays like this as well. Recall that one of the help files says that strength is "ability to handle physical defenders/linemen" or something like that. Schafer's 58 strength trumped Branch's 45 blocking strength on that play?




Fairbanks is in a Single-Back formation, strength is left.
The defense shows the 43 look with weak-side man, otherwise cover-7 zone coverage.
Tucker is gambling on a pass play.
Joey Allen receives the snap from center.
Emile Perry sent Nathan Zandofsky flying to the ground, and is pressuring the quarterback.
Allen fires a long pass intended for Wide Receiver Domingo Luevano.
He's throwing into double coverage.
Luevano caught the pass.
That's good for 22 yards.
He was tackled by Outside Linebacker James Schrock, with the assist to Cornerback Steven Randall.
The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field.
Luevano gained 3 yards after the catch.
That will go for a first down.
Two interesting things here. First, the bolded. Zandofsky's 62 blocking strength was overcome by Perry's 82 pass rush strength? Also, I don't recall in FOF2K4 there ever being situations where any text about the QB being pressured led to a completion. It was always pressure leading to an incompletion, and a hurry for the defender. Joey Allen has a 100 in "Sense Rush." Did this help him here?


Fairbanks is lined up in a Single-Back formation with two tight ends, aligned to the right.
The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage.
They are keying on the run.
Deron Lang takes the snap from center.
Emile Perry simply ran through Nathan Zandofsky to pressure the quarterback.
Lang dances around, then launches an intermediate pass to Wide Receiver Domingo Luevano.
Outside Linebacker Leland Crabb intercepts the pass at the Tucker 19.
He was tackled by Domingo Luevano.
Perry runs over Zandofsky again and Lang (53 sense rush) dances around. Just another way of saying that he avoided the rush?




Tucker is in a Pro formation with two tight ends, strength is right.
The defense shows the 43 look with 2-deep man-to-man coverage.
Fairbanks is looking for a run. Westbrook is blitzing.
The Solution Duncan gets the ball from the center.
Archie Trantham takes the handoff.
It's a run play toward the right sideline.
Offensive Guard Brady Edwards is creating a nice hole for the runner.
The run is good for 2 yards.
He was tackled by Outside Linebacker Alex Westbrook, assisted by Inside Linebacker Matt Sellers.
And that's a first down.
Good ol' KRB from FOF2K4, but I wonder about the 2-yard gain on a KRB. Trantham's low hole recognition???




The offense is in the I formation, strength on the left side.
Tucker is in a 43 alignment with 3-deep zone coverage.
They are expecting a pass play. Donato is blitzing.
Deron Lang steps back from the center.
He hands the ball to Mark Halley.
It's a run around the left end.
Offensive Tackle Thurman McKenzie runs over Will Alcott to open up a hole.
Halley breaks a pair of tackles and continues.
He's got a lot of running room now.
They finally bring him down from behind.
The play goes for 20 yards.
Inside Linebacker Van Martyn is credited with the stop.
McKenzie, a 298-pound tackle with 33 blocking strength, runs over my 216-pound SS. Pancake? (He had one in the stats line) Also, the 6'2", 225-pound Halley "breaks a couple of tackles." Is this text just fluff to help explain the long gain, or is it telling us that Halley's size made him harder to bring down?




Tucker is in a Strong formation with three wideouts, strength is left.
The defense shows the 43 look with 3-deep zone coverage.
Fairbanks is looking for a pass.
Shaun Duncan receives the snap.
He gives the ball to R.J. Ellard.
It looks like he's going right, but it's a trap around left tackle.
He rushes for 6 yards.
Tackled by Safety Kelvin Mayberry, and an assist from Outside Linebacker Alex Westbrook.
I don't think I'd ever seen that text prior to this afternoon. A little misdirection "finesse" run, I assume.




At this point, of course, much of this is just speculation. Thoughts???

timmynausea
02-02-2007, 08:17 PM
There were many interesting things in this post, but one thing I can confirm for certain:


Good ol' KRB from FOF2K4, but I wonder about the 2-yard gain on a KRB. Trantham's low hole recognition???


Every run resulting in a first down had a key run block in 2k4, even if it was only a 1 yard gain.

RedKingGold
02-02-2007, 08:19 PM
Some of this stuff has been around since FOF2001 (i.e.; ran his route over the middle of the field). But some of it is definitely new. Such as the QB being able to complete a pass while being rushed. I've never seen that before.

Also, I think your guesses about what those sayings mean in terms of ratings are good assumptions. They need more testing, but its a nice starting place. I also think that weight plays a heavier (no pun intended) role in FOF2K7 than people realize.

Synovia
02-02-2007, 08:21 PM
Skydog, I have to agree that you can learn some neat things from Solevision. In my preseason game this week, one of my DTs had 3.5 sacks, and the other had none. The one with the sacks is a 74/74 15 year player, whereas the other is a 65/92 Rookie.
<br><br>
Watching Sole, it was clear that the 65/92 guy was the one creating all the pressure, even though the other guy got the sacks. There were probably 10-12 plays where he blew over the guard he was lined up against. Looking at the stats, it looks like my LDT had a huge day, and my Rookie may be a bust. Watching Solevision tells me a different story.

Eaglesfan27
02-02-2007, 09:16 PM
I've watched all of my Eagles' games in my dynasty, and I've had almost the exact same thoughts as you on what these things mean. It certainly seems like you can gain some insight on your players from watching Solevision.

Vinatieri for Prez
02-03-2007, 12:17 AM
I'm really loving this Solevision now. It's kind of like 2-D without 2-D.

However, I point out that SD seemed to always think a positive pass rush was related to strength. I don't see why the pass rush and/or blocking technique ratings could not have been at work instead.

Vinatieri for Prez
02-03-2007, 12:18 AM
McKenzie, a 298-pound tackle with 33 blocking strength, runs over my 216-pound SS. Pancake? (He had one in the stats line) Also, the 6'2", 225-pound Halley "breaks a couple of tackles." Is this text just fluff to help explain the long gain, or is it telling us that Halley's size made him harder to bring down?


Perhaps not Halley's size but his elusiveness rating? Or his "power inside" rating? Or his "3rd down rushing" rating? Or a combination of all 3? In addition, it may also involve the "punishing hitter" defensive rating of the tacklers?

Edit: I see the run was around left end, so forget the power inside rating, but you know what I'm getting at.

Vinatieri for Prez
02-03-2007, 12:24 AM
Skydog, I have to agree that you can learn some neat things from Solevision. In my preseason game this week, one of my DTs had 3.5 sacks, and the other had none. The one with the sacks is a 74/74 15 year player, whereas the other is a 65/92 Rookie.
<br><br>
Watching Sole, it was clear that the 65/92 guy was the one creating all the pressure, even though the other guy got the sacks. There were probably 10-12 plays where he blew over the guard he was lined up against. Looking at the stats, it looks like my LDT had a huge day, and my Rookie may be a bust. Watching Solevision tells me a different story.

:eek: :D :eek: :D

MrBigglesworth
02-03-2007, 06:04 PM
Skydog, I have to agree that you can learn some neat things from Solevision. In my preseason game this week, one of my DTs had 3.5 sacks, and the other had none. The one with the sacks is a 74/74 15 year player, whereas the other is a 65/92 Rookie.
<br><br>
Watching Sole, it was clear that the 65/92 guy was the one creating all the pressure, even though the other guy got the sacks. There were probably 10-12 plays where he blew over the guard he was lined up against. Looking at the stats, it looks like my LDT had a huge day, and my Rookie may be a bust. Watching Solevision tells me a different story.
I've often wondered if this is the case for 2k4 too. Some players seemed to get more sacks when lined up on the same line with other good players.

Warhammer
02-15-2007, 10:51 AM
I've often wondered if this is the case for 2k4 too. Some players seemed to get more sacks when lined up on the same line with other good players.

I agree with this. DE Andy Rick had something like 5 sacks one year and he is atrocious at all pass rushing skills. But, he had good run defense skills and was playing on a line with other guys that could get to the QB. I think that played a big part in it, the other guys would pressure, QB would attempt to scramble, and he would get the QB based upon his 90+ run defense at the time.

Also, with the guy breaking tackles, I think that is elusiveness coming into play.

gstelmack
02-15-2007, 11:22 AM
If you aren't watching Solevision, you need to. SkyDog has some examples, but there are far more that come into play.

For example, I'm seeing lots of examples where an O-Lineman creates a big hole, and the runner gets a yard. Looks to me like someone has trouble finding that hole.

I've seen my first holder bobbling the ball to cause a missed FG.

I've seen my fans stand up and applaud (seriously) on a made 54-yard FG. Thought that was a nice touch.

I've got a good kick returner, and now I know how that impacts things: his good returns usually say something like "gets in behind his blockers" before a 38-yard return.

Just lots and lots of details in Solevision.

Front Office Midget
02-15-2007, 02:47 PM
If you aren't watching Solevision, you need to. SkyDog has some examples, but there are far more that come into play.

For example, I'm seeing lots of examples where an O-Lineman creates a big hole, and the runner gets a yard. Looks to me like someone has trouble finding that hole.

For this, it's probably when there is only 1 yard to go. It will ALWAYS describe the O-Lineman as creating a big hole for the RB any time a first down is gained.

gstelmack
02-15-2007, 03:24 PM
For this, it's probably when there is only 1 yard to go. It will ALWAYS describe the O-Lineman as creating a big hole for the RB any time a first down is gained.

Nope. Many other situations, too. I'm figuring this is a RB with poor hole recognition: the game actually appears to credit the O-Lineman for creating the hole, but the RB does not necessarily take advantage of the hole.

Watching Solevision APPEARS (perhaps falsely) to give a lot of insight into the underlying sim engine. Each line in Solevision APPEARS to equate to one of the die rolls we've talked about before. Does the QB get a clean snap? Does he make the handoff? Does an O-Lineman create a hole, or does a Defender get through? Does the RB make it through the line? Does he break tackles? etc.

yabanci
02-15-2007, 05:26 PM
Nope. Many other situations, too. ....

game logs?

Eaglesfan27
02-15-2007, 05:48 PM
I'll see if I can find some. I know that I've seen a huge hole open on 1st and 10 as well as a variety of other situations including some plays that are gains of 1 or 2 and some that are gains of 10 or more.

gstelmack
02-15-2007, 08:11 PM
game logs?

Unfortunately, most of this is in the Solevision bits, not the game logs. The next example I see, I'll paste it here (if I can remember).

BrianD
02-15-2007, 08:30 PM
Watching Solevision APPEARS (perhaps falsely) to give a lot of insight into the underlying sim engine. Each line in Solevision APPEARS to equate to one of the die rolls we've talked about before. Does the QB get a clean snap? Does he make the handoff? Does an O-Lineman create a hole, or does a Defender get through? Does the RB make it through the line? Does he break tackles? etc.

Does it really give that much info on the sim engine? We can see that a guy with a good rating will probably eventually generate a line which attributes an action to that rating, but didn't everyone already assume that was happening under the hood? This doesn't really tell us how different ratings are compared to other ratings, just that a good rating will eventually show itself.

It is nice to see that the ratings do mean something, but I don't see what we are learning beyond that.

mrsimperless
02-16-2007, 01:42 AM
Solevision is different than the game logs? Never knew that. But the text must be getting saved somewhere, because we can load solevision tapes from previous weeks.

Vinatieri for Prez
02-16-2007, 01:49 AM
Solevision is different than the game logs? Never knew that. But the text must be getting saved somewhere, because we can load solevision tapes from previous weeks.

That would be great if you could print up solevision play by play.

mrsimperless
02-16-2007, 01:59 AM
I wonder if we watch the same game in solveision twice, while loading a different tape in between watches, if the text is the same or not. We know of course the results will be the same, but I wonder if there is osme randomness behind what is revealed in solevision. A cursory search in the game directories didnt locate any solevision game logs for me, and we'd need one for each game every week.

DolphinFan1
02-16-2007, 08:25 AM
I wonder if we watch the same game in solveision twice, while loading a different tape in between watches, if the text is the same or not. We know of course the results will be the same, but I wonder if there is osme randomness behind what is revealed in solevision. A cursory search in the game directories didnt locate any solevision game logs for me, and we'd need one for each game every week.

It's the same no matter how many times you watch it.

Celeval
02-16-2007, 09:15 AM
I wonder if we watch the same game in solveision twice, while loading a different tape in between watches, if the text is the same or not. We know of course the results will be the same, but I wonder if there is osme randomness behind what is revealed in solevision. A cursory search in the game directories didnt locate any solevision game logs for me, and we'd need one for each game every week.

The Solevision data is based off of the specific play/data details in the week-by-week result files. These are the same files the game logs and box scores are generated off of. Unfortunately, we haven't completely deciphered the format yet. :)

gstelmack
02-16-2007, 10:47 AM
The Solevision data is based off of the specific play/data details in the week-by-week result files. These are the same files the game logs and box scores are generated off of. Unfortunately, we haven't completely deciphered the format yet. :)

Yup, it's all in there in binary form. Celeval and I were poking at it, then WOOF started and I haven't touched it in a few weeks. I'd like to get back to it.

Ben E Lou
03-11-2007, 08:31 PM
I just saw "he looked sluggish on this cold day," after a RB gained one yard.

gstelmack
03-12-2007, 09:31 AM
For this, it's probably when there is only 1 yard to go. It will ALWAYS describe the O-Lineman as creating a big hole for the RB any time a first down is gained.

I will back off on my original statement. This does appear correct. Since I've been watching more closely, every case where my RB gained 1 or 2 yards after the OLine gets a big hole it was a run for first down.

gstelmack
03-12-2007, 09:36 AM
I just saw "he looked sluggish on this cold day," after a RB gained one yard.

This isn't new to Solevision. 2k4 game logs showed this as well (along with "he slipped a little on the wet field" or the similar "defense looked sluggish on this cold day"). According to Jim back in the rain effects debate, these lines show the only plays where weather actually impacted the result of the play.

Vinatieri for Prez
03-12-2007, 02:50 PM
With Solevision, I find QB knockdowns to be the most frustrating. It's great when you first see your DE all over the QB . . . but then it's pure heartbreak when the QB sidesteps the rush and completes a 16-yarder for a first down.

gstelmack
03-12-2007, 03:37 PM
With Solevision, I find QB knockdowns to be the most frustrating. It's great when you first see your DE all over the QB . . . but then it's pure heartbreak when the QB sidesteps the rush and completes a 16-yarder for a first down.

I saw my first "QB throws an INT while under duress" play today. I'd been waiting for one of those...

Vinatieri for Prez
03-12-2007, 03:51 PM
I saw my first "QB throws an INT while under duress" play today. I'd been waiting for one of those...

That's awesome. I wondered about that, but to see it actually happen is quite nice to see.

marcmoustache
06-08-2007, 05:57 AM
To revisit this thread, there's a few bits in Solevision and/or the play outcomes that I don't get (forgive me if I mentioned these before ;) ):

1. Safeties making tackles on run plays when in 2/3/4 deep coverage and expecting the pass

If the safety is 15 yards from the LOS and dropping back on the snap how does the cover the ground to make the tackle so easily?

2. A very high proportion of passes completed are where "... the receiver ran his route right across the field..."

Does this tell us:

a) it actually was a crossing route
b) the QB hung around in the pocket and the WR "found" the QB

I don't get to see a lot of football in the UK but aren't quite a lot of passes to the sidelines?

Marc.

Hammer
06-08-2007, 11:40 AM
Even being 15 yards back these guys could still make the line of scrimmage in 2 seconds. Remember the back is around 7 yards deep, maybe being patient following blockers or running wide - so I think its quite credible the safety makes the tackle on a 4 yard gain for example.

With reference to the "ran his route over the middle of the field". I wondered if that was a reference to the WR showing courage during the reception.

Synovia
06-08-2007, 11:42 AM
Even being 15 yards back these guys could still make the line of scrimmage in 2 seconds. Remember the back is around 7 yards deep, maybe being patient following blockers or running wide - so I think its quite credible the safety makes the tackle on a 4 yard gain for example.

With reference to the "ran his route over the middle of the field". I wondered if that was a reference to the WR showing courage during the reception.

Right, but hes not 15 yards deep. Hes 15 yards at the start of the play, expecting pass, which means that hes probably 20 yards deep when he realizes its a running play.....


I could see the safties making tackles in this situation, but not near the LOS.

Sgran
06-08-2007, 01:11 PM
In many formations the safety reads the tight end (I used to play safety). If the tight end blocks outward, the safety's job (in a basic 4-3) is to plug the hole between the tackle and the tight end. The outside linebacker has contain. If the running back is picking his way through the line, it is entirely conceivable that a safety makes a tackle near the line of scrimmage, especially if the play is designed to go off tackle or wide.

marcmoustache
06-09-2007, 02:43 AM
Good points, just seems to be a lot of tackles by safeties but this actually might reflect RL NFL.

Antmeister
07-13-2007, 03:08 PM
Did I mention that Solevision is the most painful thing to watch when you lose another close game?

Besides that, I can't just live with game logs anymore. Solevision has helped me to see a number of things that the scout just doesn't see.

For example, I had a QB who had about a 65 in Medium Range Passing. However, when you watched him try to complete those throws in Solevision, half of his throws would say that he couldn't get enough on the ball. That pretty much tells me that he is much weaker in that range than it had appeared.

I also believe that Blocking Strength does have much more of an impact in this games than in the ones in the past. It does appear that an O line with low blocking strength are more likely to have blocked passes or people thrown to the ground, especially on longer passes.