PING: QuikSand (QB rushes)

[Ben E Lou]

As a follow-up to our discussion the other day, I'm trying to see what can be done.
Set rushing at 25% in most situations
Threw down the field quite a bit.
99 finesse running in all formations.
Drafted a team from scratch, starting with QB who was 98 in scramble frequency, 77 sense rush
Turned injuries off for testing purposes.
Used "tied" gameplan for 3 quarters.On my first run, QB had 105 attempts for 558 yards. Going to take a look at some logs now...

[QuikSand]

105 attempts is pretty good, really.

Do you recall how good your QB's 40 time was in the combine? (There's some evidence suggesting this might be a factor itself)

[Ben E Lou]

105 attempts is pretty good, really.

Do you recall how good your QB's 40 time was in the combine? (There's some evidence suggesting this might be a factor itself)It was a dispersal draft.

[QuikSand]

Oh, right. Dang.

[Ben E Lou]

So far, I can't find any real evidence that the finesse running is making a big difference. I'll isolate it in a bit, but from the logs, it looks like most (all?) of my QB runs are scrambles.

[QuikSand]

Here are my FOFL QB's stats, for what they contribute:

See Brent Run (http://www.thefofl.com/players/player.php?player=7264&set=2)

He is/was a freak, with a combine time of 4.42, and he has improved on that - he's something like #10 on the league's list of fastest players now.

My gameplan has not really been developed with QB rushing in mind, but he does manage to get his carries - looks like he's heading for another ~100 carry season this year.

[Ben E Lou]

Ok, with a 25% run (basically), mostly medium/long passing gameplan, here were my 10-season averages:

RUSHES: 89.5
YARDS: 503.8
YPC: 5.63

I really should have *started* by doing what I'm about to do now, but didn't think about it. Next, I'll run 10 seasons with the exact same roster, but with the AI setting the gameplans.

[QuikSand]

If your QB has proficiency with a 5WR formation, using a game plan with a fair degree of that might prove worth pursuing. In theory, an empty backfield would seemingly turn any sort of audible-to-run into a QB carry, right?

[Ben E Lou]

If your QB has proficiency with a 5WR formation, using a game plan with a fair degree of that might prove worth pursuing. In theory, an empty backfield would seemingly turn any sort of audible-to-run into a QB carry, right?Excellent thought, and he does know that formation. Once I finish these 10 AI runs, I'll try going back to my 25% test, but with heavey use of 5WR and see what happens.

[Ben E Lou]

AI handling everything:

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 288pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="384"><col style="width: 48pt;" span="6" width="64"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 48pt;" height="17" width="64">Rushes</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Yards</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">YPC</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Win</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Loss</td> <td class="xl26" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">QBRtg</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">55</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">258</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="4.6909090909090905" x:fmla="=B2/A2">4.69</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">12</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">4</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">105.0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">58</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">296</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.1034482758620694" x:fmla="=B3/A3">5.10</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">8</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D3">8</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">85.7</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">82</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">471</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.7439024390243905" x:fmla="=B4/A4">5.74</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">11</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D4">5</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">101.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">60</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">347</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.7833333333333332" x:fmla="=B5/A5">5.78</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">11</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D5">5</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">86.4</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">67</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">412</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="6.1492537313432836" x:fmla="=B6/A6">6.15</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">10</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D6">6</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">92.2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">74</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">373</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.0405405405405403" x:fmla="=B7/A7">5.04</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">11</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D7">5</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">94.9</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">68</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">375</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.5147058823529411" x:fmla="=B8/A8">5.51</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">12</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D8">4</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">106.7</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">58</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">258</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="4.4482758620689653" x:fmla="=B9/A9">4.45</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">12</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D9">4</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">106.9</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">66</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">378</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.7272727272727275" x:fmla="=B10/A10">5.73</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">11</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D10">5</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">87.3</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">68</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">333</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="4.8970588235294121" x:fmla="=B11/A11">4.90</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">9</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D11">7</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">95.1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(A2:A11)" height="17">65.6</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(B2:B11)">350.1</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.3368902439024399" x:fmla="=B12/A12">5.34</td> <td x:num="" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(D2<img src=" ../forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" smilieid="4" class="xl22">10.7</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D12">5.3</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(F2:F11)">96.2</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

[beargrowlz]

Sorry to intrude, but I love the topic of running QB's.

Isn't part of the problem with QB rushing simply a lack of QB running plays in the game?

I don't have the game open to playcalling where you can actually see the plays available, but IIRC even in a 5 wide offense there are only one, maybe two QB running plays to call. In a more normal set, there's only one I think, QB draw.

With the game designed that too frequent use of a play will result in the defense becoming familiar with it and making it easier to stop, I assume that would make it far less likely for the offense to call the play.

So the best chance for a QB to run would be to play against a good pass rush defense, and scramble.

I think this is one area where the next iteration of the game could use some work - allowing owners to make better use out of running QB's.

Just sayin.

[Ben E Lou]

If your QB has proficiency with a 5WR formation, using a game plan with a fair degree of that might prove worth pursuing. In theory, an empty backfield would seemingly turn any sort of audible-to-run into a QB carry, right?50% is going to be too much to ever do in a real season. After three runs, QB rushing has gone up, but wins and QB rating have gone down quite a bit. Haven't looked at any logs yet, but it sounds like the defense is becoming very familiar with that play. I'll report in once I get to ten.

[Ben E Lou]

Ok, with a 25% run (basically), mostly medium/long passing gameplan, here were my 10-season averages:

RUSHES: 89.5
YARDS: 503.8
YPC: 5.63

Using a gameplan only changed to heavily increase 5WR formations, I increased rushing to average 102.4 attempts, 607.7 yards, 5.93ypc, but wins dropped from a little over 9 to 6.3, and QB Rtg dropped from around 75 to 45.77.

For my next runs, I'm not going to try to isolate any one factor. I'll make some adjustments to several things to see if we can get this guy to tote the rock a little more, but not sacrifice his passing or the team's wins.

[QuikSand]

Using a gameplan only changed to heavily increase 5WR formations, I increased rushing to average 102.4 attempts, 607.7 yards, 5.93ypc, but wins dropped from a little over 9 to 6.3, and QB Rtg dropped from around 75 to 45.77.

That's kinda funny. Hooray, Ponce De Leon, you've finally discovered the Fountain of Suck.

[Ben E Lou]

AI handling everything:

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 288pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="384"><col style="width: 48pt;" span="6" width="64"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 48pt;" height="17" width="64">Rushes</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Yards</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">YPC</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Win</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Loss</td> <td class="xl26" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">QBRtg</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">55</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">258</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="4.6909090909090905" x:fmla="=B2/A2">4.69</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">12</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">4</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">105.0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">58</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">296</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.1034482758620694" x:fmla="=B3/A3">5.10</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">8</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D3">8</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">85.7</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">82</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">471</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.7439024390243905" x:fmla="=B4/A4">5.74</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">11</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D4">5</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">101.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">60</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">347</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.7833333333333332" x:fmla="=B5/A5">5.78</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">11</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D5">5</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">86.4</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">67</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">412</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="6.1492537313432836" x:fmla="=B6/A6">6.15</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">10</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D6">6</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">92.2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">74</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">373</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.0405405405405403" x:fmla="=B7/A7">5.04</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">11</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D7">5</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">94.9</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">68</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">375</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.5147058823529411" x:fmla="=B8/A8">5.51</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">12</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D8">4</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">106.7</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">58</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">258</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="4.4482758620689653" x:fmla="=B9/A9">4.45</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">12</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D9">4</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">106.9</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">66</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">378</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.7272727272727275" x:fmla="=B10/A10">5.73</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">11</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D10">5</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">87.3</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">68</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">333</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="4.8970588235294121" x:fmla="=B11/A11">4.90</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="">9</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D11">7</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">95.1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(A2:A11)" height="17">65.6</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(B2:B11)">350.1</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="5.3368902439024399" x:fmla="=B12/A12">5.34</td> <td x:num="" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(D2<img src=" ../forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" smilieid="4" class="xl22">10.7</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=16-D12">5.3</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(F2:F11)">96.2</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

I was able to better all of these numbers on my first try, so definitely this can be refined. Taking what I've learned (or think I've learned) so far, I just went through ten runs averaging the following:

82.6 attempts, 464.9 yards, 5.63 ypc, 11.3 wins, 96.2 QB Rating.

[Eaglesfan27]

FWIW, I had McNabb in one of my test careers (didn't save numbers) running about 110 times per season using a large amount of 5 WR sets. I watched some of those games and there were quite a few draws in there.

[OldGiants]

Wow. I've been thinking about trying this QB with high sense rush/scramble ratings combination all week. ("Scramble" is always on your mind when subbing for a fifth grade LD class of eight boys including one autistic).

My only twist was going to be also having the QB with little passing skill (except for high 'avoid INT') and see if that makes for more scrambles. Since I'm still playing FOF2004 while waiting for my new machine to show up, I might give it a whirl.

My other test will be to go with RBs with ultra high 'Hole Recognition' and nothing else can run for solid numbers behind a stud OL with a 16+ formation QB. I think this will be true based on recent careers with undrafted RBs, but they were high 30's guys.

[Front Office Midget]

If you guys want any minute data, my last draft had 2 complete stud QBs with 40 times of 4.35, but I only go through about a season a month.

[Ben E Lou]

Using a gameplan only changed to heavily increase 5WR formations, I increased rushing to average 102.4 attempts, 607.7 yards, 5.93ypc, but wins dropped from a little over 9 to 6.3, and QB Rtg dropped from around 75 to 45.77.

For my next runs, I'm not going to try to isolate any one factor. I'll make some adjustments to several things to see if we can get this guy to tote the rock a little more, but not sacrifice his passing or the team's wins.

That's kinda funny. Hooray, Ponce De Leon, you've finally discovered the Fountain of Suck.

Heh. Now that we know why the Fountain of Suck was here, I probably should try this again at some point.