Talk about overrated: Terrell Suggs and Peereless Price

[Leonidas]

Point number one
This year's NFL draft must be one of the lamest ever. Terrel Suggs is considered a top 5 choice. OK, and just what exactly is the difference between him and Dwight Freeney whom I believe was like a 19 or 20 last year. Both guys had an ungodly amount of sacks at DE in college, and both are approx the same size with the same athletic ability. Freeney did pretty well, but has yet to show he can play the run worth a crap. Why is Suggs any different.

Point 2
Peereless Price was labelled a Franchise Player today. OK, Franchise players get an avaerage salary of the top 5 at their poisition. Price was the number two receiver, with overinflated Drew Bledsoe passing numbers, on a mediocre team. All of the sudden he is worth top 5 in the league money in a league with more great receivers than possibly any other time in NFL history? I have to think there are at least 20 other receivers out there who on that team would be as good or better. Maybe this is why the Bills suck.

[Fritz]

IMHO, the Bills are not trying to keep Price, but want to see if they can get something for him in a trade.

[Ryche]

Suggs is 2 years younger and 2 inches taller. That's all the difference you need between a number 5 pick, the worse case scenario for Suggs, and a number 11 like Freeney last year.

[TroyF]

As has been mentione, Suggs is taller than Freeney. Suggs also played the run better than Freeney did in college.

What's more is that what Freeney did helped Suggs in a big way. 13 sacks makes for an impact player. The Colts went from last in scoring defense to #4 in the AFC. They also moved into the middle of the pack in total defense.

Freeney had a lot to do with that. If Suggs is equal to Freeney, he's a top five pick. Here are some numbers to look at:

45 solo tackles, 13 sacks, 9 forced fumbles

30 solo tackles, 12 sacks, 5 forced fumbles, 1 INT.

Top number is Freeney, bottom number is Peppers. Even with Peppers missing the final four games, they were on the field for about the same amount of total plays. (Freeny logged 8 starts and was a pass rush specialist early on)

TroyF

[Schmidty]

I certainly would call a rookie who compiled 13 sacks to be "worth a crap".

Since it's starting to look like Rogers might be taken with the #1 pick, I wouldn't mind if the Lions took a guy like Suggs at #2. Kalimba Edwards/Terrell Suggs as bookends would make a mighty fine line in my opinion, since Porcher will be retiring soon.

[rkmsuf]

Price is a very good receiver but the Bills can't afford what he will command in free agency since they are already on the books with Moulds for a whopper of a contract. I think it's a good move to keep the core intact for another year...

Also Price should remove the hair from across his ass since he's making a nice score for next year...apparantly he's bent out of shape at the tag...

[RendeR]

Point 2
Peereless Price was labelled a Franchise Player today. OK, Franchise players get an avaerage salary of the top 5 at their poisition. Price was the number two receiver, with overinflated Drew Bledsoe passing numbers, on a mediocre team. All of the sudden he is worth top 5 in the league money in a league with more great receivers than possibly any other time in NFL history? I have to think there are at least 20 other receivers out there who on that team would be as good or better. Maybe this is why the Bills suck. [/B]


This whole tag issue is a bit screwed up when looking at Price.

A) the Bills aren't trying to say he's one of the best 5 recievers in the league, he's not, he's barely one of the top 5 in the conference. What the Bills are doing by tagging him is guarenteeing that they keep him, OR they get BIG compensation for him from another team.

B) Every player is upset about being tagged because it takes the control away from them, they have no real say in the matter at all with a franchise tag, and only a bit more with a transition tag. Price thinks he would get possibly bigger money than what the tag guarentees him, and thats why he's pissed off.

Now in my own humble opinion, this is the best move possible for the Bills. to leave him untagged in the FA market would have been sheer stupidity. They'd have gotten nothing for him in return if he went elsewhere and been out a decent #2 reciever.

This move not only shows that the Bills are trying to rebuild a winner, but it shows the people trying to do so have a VERY good grasp of the FA market right now.


Ren

[WSUCougar]

Well said, RendeR. I think your analysis is dead on.

I'd add that the thing with free agency is not so much the player's actual value, but their relative value. No one is going to argue that Peerless Price is a Top-5 receiver in terms of talent - although his numbers this past season were pretty damn good - but in terms of going into free agency, he is a #1 WR and there are plenty of teams that are drooling at the prospect of nabbing him. That boosts his relative value beyond his actual value.

[Fritz]

Are the top 5 paid players in a position the top players in a position?

[condors]

the main reason players hate getting the franchise tag is you get a salary of the top 5 players but you get nothing for a signing bonus which is what the top tier free agents want

[rkmsuf]

a one year deal is essentially a signing bonus...

[Poli]

The question I have about tagging Peerless ( a Tennessee VOL) is that the draft has so many good receivers this year. I would think it is possible to find a decent replacement for Peerless for less cash.

If I were another team, I'm not sure I'd give Peerless the type of contract he would be asking for. If I were the Bills, I know I wouldn't have tagged him franchise...perhaps a transition, if it were possible.

[scooper]

Receiver is one position, along with QB where rookies have a hard time contributing and their impact may be a couple years off. That's why of all the superstar WR's drafted in the last decade, only Moss has really made a large impact. Price is a veteran who proved this year to have good chemistry with Bledsoe.

[Leonidas]

I guess I should explain myself a bit more. First off, Schmidty, I said Freeny was not worth a crap playing the run. You directly referenced his ability to pressure the QB, which I freely acknowledge was pretty good. My point is why is a guy who is a clone of a 20th pick from last year rated a 5th pick this year? Is the draft that much weaker?

Now for Peereless Price. My point really is we have a really screwed up system if a guy who is decent, but not great, commands top 5 position player money and still bitches about it. I personally do not think Price is worth that much cash, regardless of the whole strategy behind it. Then to see a really worthy guy like David Boston not get the same tag is really whacked out on behalf of the Cardinals. Please, Boston is much better than Price. Phoenix clearly doesn't get it, nor do I think does Buffalo. Imagine the numbers Boston could run up in a Drew Bledsoe offense.

[rexalllsc]

How can you say Suggs is overrated? He broke the NCAA record for sacks, and has been a freak since his True FR year...

[The_herd]

Originally posted by Leonidas
I guess I should explain myself a bit more. First off, Schmidty, I said Freeny was not worth a crap playing the run. You directly referenced his ability to pressure the QB, which I freely acknowledge was pretty good. My point is why is a guy who is a clone of a 20th pick from last year rated a 5th pick this year? Is the draft that much weaker?



I'm pretty certain that if last years draft was done over today, then Freeney would most certainly be taken in the top 6-8 picks, if not higher. Its not that this is a much weaker draft, its the fact that Freeney answered the question a lot of people ask about a player his size, "Can he make it in the NFL?". Suggs is almost a mirror image of Freeney in his playing style, probably a little better against the run though. If Suggs succeeds, then we will most likely be seeing GMs start looking for guys like this as impact pass rushers.

Also another thing to consider is I would bet EVEN IF Suggs couldn't play the run, I don't think it would hurt his draft position too much, a guy thats good for 15 or so sacks a year, plus countless pressures is still a very valueable player. Simeon Rice had the knock on him that, if it was a running play, he was gonna take that play off, and he still got drafted high, and signed a huge contract the second he had the opportunity to get out of Arizona.

[Noble_Platypus]

Someone should inform leonidas that its the ARIZONA Cardinals now.

[illinifan999]

I just hope the Bears, if they pass on a QB, take Suggs if he is available.

[TroyF]

Leon,

What's screwed up about the system? Price is upset because he could have a big payday on the open market.

So that leaves a few questions:

Why wouldn't David Boston be given the same tag?

Well, the Cardinals are a poor organization for one. Still, Boston carries baggage. He had a poor season in a contract year. Not a very good indicator of things to come. He also has a ton of off the field issues. After his "almost" drug bust, the NFL isn't going to go lightly on him if it happens again. He's also coming off of a big injury.

Why would Price be so overvalued?

Well, for one thing, he's not that bad of a WR. He caught 895 yards worth of passes the year before Bledsoe arrived. He's coming off of a 94 catch, 1300 yard season.

He has no injury history to speak of and has zero off the field problems. He's also a free agent in a market where Boston is his only real competition for best WR. If you are a team looking for a #1 WR (or an unbelievable #2), you do not have a lot of choices. Who are you going after? Brandon Stokley? Please. . . Price is the unquestioned 2nd best WR in this free agent class. He's first on a lot of teams list because of his off the field behavior.

In the end, it's a very simple equation to figure out. There isn't anything wrong with the system.

TroyF

[Samdari]

When 2 punters (punters!) are given the "franchise" tag, there IS something wring with the system.

[TroyF]

Sam,

Why? A punter, provided you have all of your other big free agent signed, is a perfect person to tag. Paying a guy as one of the top five punters in the game isn't going to kill you. At the same time, a good punter is an important asset to many teams.

I don't see how the system is broke because of that.

TroyF

[Blackadar]

On Suggs, he is bigger than Sweeney and had a better season. They may be similar, but on production, Suggs is the more valuable choice.

Funny thing is I think the buzz is about the wrong Suggs. Lee Suggs, RB for VT, could make one hell of a pro running back in the right system.

[oykib]

You've gotta be pissed if you're Price. Any franchise player loses out on his only guaranteed payday.

If he twists his knee the wrong way and misses a couple of games, or some other hot reciever comes out the next time he's on the market, he's screwed.

Also, he loses his chance to move to a contender.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by Blackadar

Funny thing is I think the buzz is about the wrong Suggs. Lee Suggs, RB for VT, could make one hell of a pro running back in the right system.

I was talking to a friend the other day about players being put in the right (or wrong) system, and how it basically determines their career. Examples: Cade McNown and Akili Smith. Two #3 in the Heisman voting in 98. McNown goes to the Bears, a horrible team, and starts 16 games over 2 years.

Now, did this guy tear it up all 4 years in college? Well, McNown was a 4 year starter, and didn't blossom until his JR year. He did show flashes during his FR and SO years, but was inconsistent. So can anyone tell me why the Bears would expect a kid who has Curtis Enis for a RB, and a pathetic team around him to step in and light the league on fire? His QB rating was pretty much the same as his counterparts, Shane Matthews and Jim Miller, but McNown wsa villified and run out of town. If you're going to invest that much money into the kid, why not let him start through 3 years, let him make his mistakes (because your team sucks anyways!), and then reap the rewards?

Same thing w/ Akili Smith in Cincinnati...

[Leonidas]

Thank you one and all for the great conversation generated on my thread. This is precisely what I was looking for. I now have a better understanding of what is going on for both scenarios I mentioned.

I have always had some nagging doubts about pro scouts and how they rate draft picks. The whole Suggs vs Freeney thing has only reinforced my doubt. I really thought Freeney was very underrated going into the draft last year, but I do think Suggs is a might bit overrated. I think scouts get way too caught up in the physical talent deal. How else to explain the interest in Phil Simms? Anyway, remember Joe Montans was a 3rd round pick. Whatever happened to liking a guy simply because he knows how to play, talent numbers be damned?

As for Price. He is a decent receiver in the right system. But I do not think he is worthy of the franchise player label. However, Buffalo does and that is their right. They are willing to overpay him a bit to retain his services. That's fine, I just disagree. I suppose they were more worried another team out there was also willing to overpay the guy.

As to the distinction between the Arizona or Phoenix Cardinals. Does it really matter? When I lived in Phoenix they were the Phoenix Cardinals. They sucked then and they suck now. Doesn't really matter at this point. I'm willing to bet within 5 years they will be somewhere else. It's the curse of the Cardinals franchise.

[oykib]

Well... Phil Simms did turn out to be a borderline Hall of Famer.

You can't really argue with a pick like that. And he did it in a somewhat hidebound offensive system. He never had the talent around him that Montana did.

Of course, Montana was better. But if you pull a 'Simms' in the first round every year, you are gonna have a team like the '60s Packers.

[RendeR]

Originally posted by oykib
Also, he loses his chance to move to a contender.

You obviously weren't watching the same NFL season the rest of us were. The Bills missed the playoffs by two games. one with help. How much more of a contender do you want? the Bucs????

Price is an idiot if he leaves Buffalo, no matter what they tag him with. Its a pass oriented Offense with one of the leagues top 3-4 Quarterbacks. He is exactly where he should be, #2 reciever on a playoff calibur team.