Horrid short term memory or just extremely stupid.

[Axxon]

I think it's a legitimate question. I see this all the time and it baffles me.

This isn't unusual which is why it baffles me.

Customer is setting up the internet. They pick a username and a password and almost instantly they forget it. You tell them to write it down but they write down random stuff.

Honestly I can't imagine having such a short term memory that I couldn't even begin to remember that I'd tried to type something seconds earlier but there you have it. These people insist that they'd never entered a username/password but they're on the very next page from having done this. They've even sometimes had me walk them through the page then insist it never happened. That's scary stuff.

These are people to whom Leonard Shelby could legitimately say, "damn, your short term memory sucks."

Now, I do know stupid. That's the poor technician who spent 30 minutes trying to get the system to accept an email address that they guy had never even set up yet, before they sent the call to me due to the system not accepting his nonexistant login. SIGH. What a world sometimes. :)

This guy on the phone is a winner though. He's a firm believer that if he doesn't remember information he can just make it up new and it'll be fine. Shame passwords don't work like that though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Horrid short term memory is extremely possible.

Now if I could only remember why I just typed that sentence ...

[sabotai]

I spent 3+ years as a Computer Lab Assistant when I was in college. I know your pain.

[molson]

I forget shit like that all the time. If you spend any time in on the internet you've set up hundreds of username/passwords - it's become one of those activities you can do without thinking.

And while there's definitly stupid people, tech support people need to realize that their job is to be able to professionally explain things in a layman's way. I mean, if someone's calling for help, it's probably because they need it. Tech support staff complaining about people not understanding computers is like a doctor complaining about everyone being sick.

[gstelmack]

P. Sherman
42 Wallaby Way
Sydney

[Vinatieri for Prez]

It's kind of like being introduced to someone and then forgetting their name 30 second later. It's about focus. If you are focusing on something else, the average person will not remember the easiest of things that just happened. Just see how even eyewitness testimony to police moments after a crime can be different from one witness to the other.

Now, you would think someone would focus on the password; but there you have it.

[lordscarlet]

It's kind of like being introduced to someone and then forgetting their name 30 second later. It's about focus. If you are focusing on something else, the average person will not remember the easiest of things that just happened. Just see how even eyewitness testimony to police moments after a crime can be different from one witness to the other.

Now, you would think someone would focus on the password; but there you have it.

That's me right there. By the time I've started to shake your hand I've already forgotten your name.

[Axxon]

I spent 3+ years as a Computer Lab Assistant when I was in college. I know your pain.

It's worse since stupidity ( not lack of ability but mere refusal to use what ability you have ) is one of my pet peeves. It's why i really hate driving.

I don't mind the fear questions.

"OK, now turn your router over to the bottom"

"How do I do that?" gets a response

"Well, grab the left side of the router with your left hand, the right side with your right hand then raise your right hand up and to the left while lowering your left hand down and to the right. Continue until you can see the bottom."

I don't mind the totally uneducated.

"Now, turn on your computer."

"I just need to let you know that I am a total novice and I don't understand technical terms like computer."

Yes, true call, true response. One of my favorite calls ever. I spent over three hours with this woman but we got her online.

She was in her 70's, disabled, and her daughter had just bought her a new powerbook and figured since it had a touchpad mom wouldn't need a mouse. :rolleyes:

Oh, and daughter then plugs everything in, tests nothing and tells her to play around with it then leaves for a two week vacation.

Ever have an old disabled person who's never touched a computer try and work a touchpad?

She logged off her computer at least 8 times trying to click on the preferences window. We stuck with it though and I got her online. Many called me crazy and it's true, I had several opportunities to brush her off legitimately but screw that.

When asked "why did I do it" I truthfully replied "because I knew no one else would." Sad, but that's the business environment that we live in. Helping people can be career suicide, what with handle times and the like. Still, I really enjoyed helping her, no matter how frustrating it got at time.

What does bother me is the people who refuse to think at all. Not can't think but won't. People who don't think that the password they're picking is worthy of remembering. That doesn't fly if you spend even a fraction of a second letting the thought "I'm picking a password. Might be helpful to oh, remember it or write it down or something."

Even the neophite great grandma understood that even though she didn't know what a computer was.

[WVUFAN]

I have a HORRIBLE short-term memory, especially when it comes to passwords and names. I have trouble remembering either.

[dervack]

I use my username and password everyday at work, and have always been able to remember it with no problem. And the one day I used it when I got there, but for the life of me, I could not remember my username while trying to leave, 6 hours later.

[Axxon]

I forget shit like that all the time. If you spend any time in on the internet you've set up hundreds of username/passwords - it's become one of those activities you can do without thinking.

And while there's definitly stupid people, tech support people need to realize that their job is to be able to professionally explain things in a layman's way. I mean, if someone's calling for help, it's probably because they need it. Tech support staff complaining about people not understanding computers is like a doctor complaining about everyone being sick.

Read my post for my response on those who want help and those who want someone to do it for them.

I had a woman call who simply wouldn't even take the install kit out of the box and called us to do it for her. She didn't even want to do it on the phone. She wanted someone to come to her house and do it even though it is marketed as a "self install."

Of course, she didn't want to pay the $150 an install would cost. Won't work with us on the phone, won't pay for an install. Kinda hard to see this as someone I should give a damn about whether I can help or not. If I can help somebody I'll do it ( see last post ) but if you don't want to work with me, why did you call me anyway?

Oh, and I can see forgetting a password months down the road. If you can't remember selecting it literally moments after you've done it again, why did you call me? Call me when you want to be part of the process of solving your problem.

[MikeVic]

I have a horrible short and long term memory. I don't know how I'm even typing this.

But I believe it's more about focus with regards to short term memory, as someone as already said.

[Axxon]

I have a HORRIBLE short-term memory, especially when it comes to passwords and names. I have trouble remembering either.

Do you compensate for this known deficiency by writing them down? Maybe it's just how I like to approach the world but to me this makes more sense to do this than hanging on the phone several times a week getting the password reset.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Might be helpful to oh, remember it or write it down or something."

In order to successfully get through the writing-it-down part, you have to remember it long enough to do so. And yes, I'm being serious.

Although I really do think my short-term memory is worse than average (to the degree that I've talked to a couple of doctors about it), I don't think I'm the only person who gets up to go to, for example, the kitchen for something only to realize that they've forgotten where they were going or why by the time they get there. Or even before they get out of the room they started in. I see what you're talking about as largely the same thing.

I can remember my grandparents phone number from four houses & almost 40 years ago ... but I usually can't tell you what I had for lunch yesterday, or even if I had lunch. And I'm not talking about immediate recall of something trivial, I mean that 3 days out of 5 I can't conjure up the correct answer if I concentrate on it for 20 minutes trying to remember. The info might be there somewhere, but damned if I can find it.

Of course, 40 years from now, I'll probably remember that it was a couple of baloney sandwiches w/ a side of storebrand cheetos.

[dacman]

I spent 3+ years as a Computer Lab Assistant when I was in college. I know your pain.

me2

[Lathum]

It's like looking at your watch and forgeting what time it is 2 seconds later.

[Axxon]

I have a horrible short and long term memory. I don't know how I'm even typing this.

But I believe it's more about focus with regards to short term memory, as someone as already said.

Then it's the stupidity answer. See, you're calling because you have a problem you want solved but you don't think it makes sense to focus on getting your issue solved. Not exactly smart.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Do you compensate for this known deficiency by writing them down?

Only helps if you can find them when needed after writing them down.

And yes, that includes putting them in various notebooks, master lists, sticky notes, pretty much everything other than having them tatooed backwards on my forehead so that I can read them in a mirror.

[Axxon]

In order to successfully get through the writing-it-down part, you have to remember it long enough to do so. And yes, I'm being serious.

Although I really do think my short-term memory is worse than average (to the degree that I've talked to a couple of doctors about it), I don't think I'm the only person who gets up to go to, for example, the kitchen for something only to realize that they've forgotten where they were going or why by the time they get there. Or even before they get out of the room they started in. I see what you're talking about as largely the same thing.

I can remember my grandparents phone number from four houses & almost 40 years ago ... but I usually can't tell you what I had for lunch yesterday, or even if I had lunch. And I'm not talking about immediate recall of something trivial, I mean that 3 days out of 5 I can't conjure up the correct answer if I concentrate on it for 20 minutes trying to remember. The info might be there somewhere, but damned if I can find it.

Of course, 40 years from now, I'll probably remember that it was a couple of baloney sandwiches w/ a side of storebrand cheetos.

I'm older than you and I know what you're talking about but I don't think it's the same thing. This is literally forgetting what you did less than a minute ago. That's why it seems weird. It's like you have zero awareness about the most basic function of living, namely dealing with input from your environment.

[MikeVic]

Then it's the stupidity answer. See, you're calling because you have a problem you want solved but you don't think it makes sense to focus on getting your issue solved. Not exactly smart.

That's true, you're right. I should focus on it if I'm the one that called.

[Axxon]

Only helps if you can find them when needed after writing them down.

And yes, that includes putting them in various notebooks, master lists, sticky notes, pretty much everything other than having them tatooed backwards on my forehead so that I can read them in a mirror.

Agreed and I'm really bad about that. Those calls, the ones who lost their passwords or where they were written don't phase me one bit. I can relate. Not knowing what I did seconds ago, I can't relate and hopefully I never will.

[stevew]

These are the type of people that get run over in the doorway. Better check those ribs.

[Axxon]

It's like looking at your watch and forgeting what time it is 2 seconds later.

Nope. It's like It's like looking at your watch and forgetting what time it is 2 seconds later then forgetting that you'd even checked the watch at all then asking someone else the time and forgetting you have a watch and telling them that you don't have a watch on your arm so you couldn't have ever checked the time even though they saw you check it.

[Axxon]

These are the type of people that get run over in the doorway. Better check those ribs.

:D

Well played sir. Well played.

Of course, the doorway guys are the ones who have to help the other people get on the internet. Kinda makes you wonder how anyone even gets on the danged internet anyway or even remembers that they have access to the internet now that you mention it.

Oh, and I run into that too. People who are paying for service for months, yes months, then remember that they are and want to set up. Usually, by then the account has been cancelled ( but they're still getting billed which IMHO is crappy ) and we have to have them start all over again.

[WVUFAN]

Do you compensate for this known deficiency by writing them down? Maybe it's just how I like to approach the world but to me this makes more sense to do this than hanging on the phone several times a week getting the password reset.

I try to, but when it comes to passwords, we're always told never to write them down (security thing). When it comes to passwords, I wind up taking a sheet of paper, writing the password about 100 times, then shredding it. That generally does the trick.

When it comes to names ... I'm still poor at that. In the team meeting at work, in teamwork exercises, I'm notorius for not remembering my own teammates names. It's a running gag.

Quick pitiful, now that I'm writing it down. Sometimes I feel like I have early onset Alzheimers, because there's times I have difficulty remembering really simple words.

Could be that I'm just not that smart, but it also could be one too many hits in the head during my football years. :-)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm older than you and I know what you're talking about but I don't think it's the same thing. This is literally forgetting what you did less than a minute ago. That's why it seems weird. It's like you have zero awareness about the most basic function of living, namely dealing with input from your environment.

FWIW, I don't believe it's age related nearly so much as it was in generations past. I really think it's getting to the point that we're maxxing out on the amount of information that the human brain can process and access on demand, basically information overload, an ufortunate byproduct of the "information age".

And while I agree that the old phone number vs lunch analogy is somewhat different, I think your situation is pretty similar to something that I have happen all the time -- I need to call somebody, my wife rattles off the number while I'm standing there with phone in my hand ... and I can't finish dialing the ten digits before I have to ask her to repeat the number to me, even when it's a number I've dialed hundreds of times (there's a particular client's cell number that this happens with frequently). Literally seconds after the input which reinforced a task I've done countless times ... poof, the number is gone.

The only reason I don't suffer the password problem as much as some people is that I routinely ignore the security advice about using random passwords for everything & instead have a fairly set number of options derived from a common theme (albeit one that isn't any of the commonly used tricks like birthdays, children's names, etc) If at first I don't succeed, a few tries & I can come up with the variation about 90% of the time. About the only times I get tripped up on computer passwords is when a site has an odd set of requirements like "must include at least 3 letters & 3 numbers, one capital letter, and no more than two prime numbers".

[Axxon]

And while I agree that the old phone number vs lunch analogy is somewhat different, I think your situation is pretty similar to something that I have happen all the time -- I need to call somebody, my wife rattles off the number while I'm standing there with phone in my hand ... and I can't finish dialing the ten digits before I have to ask her to repeat the number to me, even when it's a number I've dialed hundreds of times (there's a particular client's cell number that this happens with frequently). Literally seconds after the input which reinforced a task I've done countless times ... poof, the number is gone.


That's been studied. The governement did a study that showed that 5 digits is the optimal amount for people to be able to quickly remember and deal with. That's why aircraft call signs are, yep, 5 digits long.

Your example here is pushing for a lot higher of a standard than most people can do normally. I can do it but it requires effort. Remembering what I did ten seconds ago, not so much.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's been studied. The governement did a study that showed that 5 digits is the optimal amount for people to be able to quickly remember and deal with. That's why aircraft call signs are, yep, 5 digits long.

{cue Johnny Carson voice} I did not know that {/Carson}

[Ben E Lou]

I saw this thread title and immediately thought it was about jbmagic.

[Axxon]

I saw this thread title and immediately thought it was about jbmagic.

What better horrid short term memory or

hey, a bee!!!!

[Travis]

My favorite was a friend of ours asking us the time while tapping her wrist where her watch would be (and actually was).

Mike (Blade) and I looked at each other, had that unspoken exchange of, "really?!", then broke out in gales of laughter.

Yes, gales.

[Axxon]

OK, explain this one. It just happened but it happens all the time.

We send out a CD which is not an install CD. It's used for drivers. It clearly says "Backup CD. Do not insert CD unless instructed" It has a cover which also says "Do not insert CD unless instructed" They have to physically touch said cover to even get to the CD.

Guy calls because the CD installer is broke.

I said, "can you remove the CD from the drive"?

He says, "You mean the one that says "Backup CD Do not insert unless instructed"?

That folks ain't a focus issue right there.

[st.cronin]

OK, explain this one. It just happened but it happens all the time.

We send out a CD which is not an install CD. It's used for drivers. It clearly says "Backup CD. Do not insert CD unless instructed" It has a cover which also says "Do not insert CD unless instructed" They have to physically touch said cover to even get to the CD.

Guy calls because the CD installer is broke.

I said, "can you remove the CD from the drive"?

He says, "You mean the one that says "Backup CD Do not insert unless instructed"?

That folks ain't a focus issue right there.

The solution to this problem is in the bolded section.

[Axxon]

The solution to this problem is in the bolded section.



Preaching to the choir my friend but we need the CD for any wireless adaptors we sell and it's easier and more convenient to the customer to have the cd with the modem as we don't sell except through ISP's. No one get's just an adaptor so no need to change the packaging because people don't want to be bothered to comprehend their native language.

Because it's usually a really short call it doesn't bother me and I don't consider it a problem in the way it affects my work but it's a problem in how humanity deals with how it interacts with it's environment.

I just find it scary that most people are that oblivious to their lives. That's what baffles me.

[st.cronin]

My experience is that any item that people acquire will be used in a way inconsistent with its purpose. And probably most people don't give instructions even a cursory glance.

[Axxon]

My experience is that any item that people acquire will be used in a way inconsistent with its purpose. And probably most people don't give instructions even a cursory glance.

Yes, but that's what I'm saying. We are a planet of billions of people who have decided to willfully ignore information that is designed to empower them to be able to do something that will enhance their own lives in some way. They want someone else to do it for them yet somehow we're the best species this planet has to offer. I'd say we're a species of millions of losers with maybe a thousand people worth a bucket of warm spit.

Hey, it's progress from hating people. Now I just feel extreme pity for them. :)

[Axxon]

Dola,

I don't type this in any way to sound superior. Fact is, everyone who works phones has these same stories and yet we're not some super class of brilliant folks who decided to work jobs that pay barely above minimum wage.

We're ordinary folks who when confronted with other peoples lack of thinking recognize it for what it is but obviously we do similarly annoying things.

[st.cronin]

Yes, but that's what I'm saying. We are a planet of billions of people who have decided to willfully ignore information that is designed to empower them to be able to do something that will enhance their own lives in some way. They want someone else to do it for them yet somehow we're the best species this planet has to offer. I'd say we're a species of millions of losers with maybe a thousand people worth a bucket of warm spit.

Hey, it's progress from hating people. Now I just feel extreme pity for them. :)

Well, but how often are instructions, etc. actually useful? Most of the time they're just nonsense. I'm surprised when I find directions that are comprehensible, much less useful.

It seems to me another possible solution to this problem is in engineering. People have been trained to use discs in a way that you expect them NOT to. How hard would it be to idiot-proof this disc, so that if they do insert it, nothing bad happens?

[Axxon]

Well, but how often are instructions, etc. actually useful? Most of the time they're just nonsense. I'm surprised when I find directions that are comprehensible, much less useful.

It seems to me another possible solution to this problem is in engineering. People have been trained to use discs in a way that you expect them NOT to. How hard would it be to idiot-proof this disc, so that if they do insert it, nothing bad happens?

Yes, we could work around user's peccadillos but what I'm concerned with is that this is one huge, depressing peccadillo.

BTW, I strongly disagree that most instructions are not useful. That's simply not true if you read them. It's a funny thing to say and we can harp on typo's and bad grammer but truly useless manuals.? Not many at all and no where near enough to stop reading all of them.

[BrianD]

Focus really is the problem of these memory issues, and most often, people don't realize that they aren't focusing on the right things. If you are setting up a computer for the first time, you aren't going to realize that the password is something you are going to use frequently. It is like giving your mother's maiden name to a bank for security. You expect to be able to answer a question about it, but you don't expect to need to be able to remember the question. If you don't tell people ahead of time how important the password is going to be and to write it down, there is no way they will remember it. You also have to factor in the stress of the situation they are in and realize they already have way too much going through their heads.

I suck at remembering names, and I know I suck at it. Knowing how much I need to do to remember the name past the handshake, I try very hard to focus on remembering the name. Every time I meet someone new I end up focusing on my own introduction and I still forget the name. Even knowing where I lack focus, I still usually get it wrong.

[st.cronin]

BTW, I strongly disagree that most instructions are not useful. That's simply not true if you read them. It's a funny thing to say and we can harp on typo's and bad grammer but truly useless manuals.? Not many at all and no where near enough to stop reading all of them.

I'm speechless. I don't think I've come across ANY useful documentation for a product since I bought TCY, and most documentation strikes me as being PURPOSELY meaningless - the purpose being to cover somebody's ass.

[Axxon]

Focus really is the problem of these memory issues, and most often, people don't realize that they aren't focusing on the right things. If you are setting up a computer for the first time, you aren't going to realize that the password is something you are going to use frequently. It is like giving your mother's maiden name to a bank for security. You expect to be able to answer a question about it, but you don't expect to need to be able to remember the question. If you don't tell people ahead of time how important the password is going to be and to write it down, there is no way they will remember it. You also have to factor in the stress of the situation they are in and realize they already have way too much going through their heads.

I suck at remembering names, and I know I suck at it. Knowing how much I need to do to remember the name past the handshake, I try very hard to focus on remembering the name. Every time I meet someone new I end up focusing on my own introduction and I still forget the name. Even knowing where I lack focus, I still usually get it wrong.

So, it's 2k7 and the meaning and import of passwords is still unknown to the masses? I mean, codes and passwords have been around since I don't even know when but it's been several centuries.

I can't see how passwords can be seen as trivial with any amount of thinking beyond the most cursory low level brain scans verifying that all input sources for the body are currently accepting input.

Oh, and it doesn't explain the CD issue. :)

[Axxon]

I'm speechless. I don't think I've come across ANY useful documentation for a product since I bought TCY, and most documentation strikes me as being PURPOSELY meaningless - the purpose being to cover somebody's ass.

Either you're liberally using hyperbole or you have the "we only focus on the ones that stand out" syndrome going on most likely.

My favorite was the "all doctors are jerks" one I'd hear around the hospital. I'd start naming names and get, nope he's not a jerk from the complainers until they got frustrated realizing that doctors are humans and most of them are not jerks but we've all been told that doctors are jerks and we haven't all met EF27 so when we meet one that is a jerk it reinforces what we know which isn't exactly the reality.

[st.cronin]

Either you're liberally using hyperbole or you have the "we only focus on the ones that stand out" syndrome going on most likely.

My favorite was the "all doctors are jerks" one I'd hear around the hospital. I'd start naming names and get, nope he's not a jerk from the complainers until they got frustrated realizing that doctors are humans and most of them are not jerks but we've all been told that doctors are jerks and we haven't all met EF27 so when we meet one that is a jerk it reinforces what we know which isn't exactly the reality.

I never, ever, ever use hyperbole. :D

Seriously, though, I understand not reading stuff like that. The consequences of not reading every little thing you are presented with are, 99% of the time, zero.

[Axxon]

I never, ever, ever use hyperbole. :D

Seriously, though, I understand not reading stuff like that. The consequences of not reading every little thing you are presented with are, 99% of the time, zero.

Oh, I agree, the world is not that dangerous ... yet. :)

[Axxon]

I never, ever, ever use hyperbole. :D

Seriously, though, I understand not reading stuff like that. The consequences of not reading every little thing you are presented with are, 99% of the time, zero.

Dola -

Let's give you the "not reading stuff like that" but recall, the customers are telling to me what it says on a CD that's in their computer. They have read it and remember it but chose to ignore it.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Yes, we could work around user's peccadillos but what I'm concerned with is that this is one huge, depressing peccadillo.

BTW, I strongly disagree that most instructions are not useful. That's simply not true if you read them. It's a funny thing to say and we can harp on typo's and bad grammer but truly useless manuals.? Not many at all and no where near enough to stop reading all of them.

I read alot of stuff for work that you have to make sense of. Some instructions are very bad, simply put. Some are very clear and useful. Most fall somewhere in between. The biggest problem of a less than satisfactory manual is that it often covers only the basic situations. When something happens that falls outside those basic situations, one could say that for that particular issue, it is in fact "completely useless."

[Axxon]

I read alot of stuff for work that you have to make sense of. Some instructions are very bad, simply put. Some are very clear and useful. Most fall somewhere in between. The biggest problem of a less than satisfactory manual is that it often covers only the basic situations. When something happens that falls outside those basic situations, one could say that for that particular issue, it is in fact "completely useless."

I agree with all of this but none of this is quite the same as



Originally Posted by st.cronin View Post
I'm speechless. I don't think I've come across ANY useful documentation for a product since I bought TCY, and most documentation strikes me as being PURPOSELY meaningless - the purpose being to cover somebody's ass.

Emphasis on the word ANY.

[stevew]

At work, there are times when I will be talking to someone on the phone about a task that is relatively simple, and literally will be this close to screaming READ THE FUCKING MANUAL FIRST DOUCHEBAG, AND THEN CALL BACK WITH QUESTIONS. But I like my job and refrain.

[st.cronin]

READ THE FUCKING MANUAL FIRST DOUCHEBAG, AND THEN CALL BACK WITH QUESTIONS.

NO!!!!

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I agree with all of this but none of this is quite the same as




Emphasis on the word ANY.

I agree. That was hyperbole.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

At work, there are times when I will be talking to someone on the phone about a task that is relatively simple, and literally will be this close to screaming READ THE FUCKING MANUAL FIRST DOUCHEBAG, AND THEN CALL BACK WITH QUESTIONS. But I like my job and refrain.

In all honesty, if you offer customer service as part of the purchase price of a product, I see no problem with a customer who chooses not to read the manual and instead get help directly from the tech person. I wouldn't do it because it actually takes more time. But if you offer tech service, I simply don't have a problem with someone choosing to use it for whatever reason -- as long as they are polite.

[BrianD]

So, it's 2k7 and the meaning and import of passwords is still unknown to the masses? I mean, codes and passwords have been around since I don't even know when but it's been several centuries.

Oh, absolutely. What percentage of the population do you think has to deal with passwords on a regular basis? Let's not count kids because they could deal with any computer problems that come up better than most tech support people. Of the adults, you have a lot of people that work in jobs without a computer or with just one computer in the shop. Then you also have lots of people who stay at home. You also have lots of people who may work on a computer in the office, but have no clue what the process of connecting to the internet is like. There are also plenty of people who had their kids connect them to the internet and checked the "save password" button so they didn't need to know it.

Passwords are still foreign to plenty of people, and we still haven't talked about all of the people that have no earthly idea how it could be necessary to have different passwords to different systems. That is another whole area of confusion.

I can't see how passwords can be seen as trivial with any amount of thinking beyond the most cursory low level brain scans verifying that all input sources for the body are currently accepting input.

Oh, and it doesn't explain the CD issue. :)

I would explain the CD issue as a deviation from an accepted norm. So many things are packaged these days with the instructions to just put the CD in and watch the magic happen. People who don't know better accept that as the way things are done. You get something computer related, and you put the CD in. There is probably a brief moment of confusion when they read the note to not just put the CD in, but that goes against everything they know about computers (which is already pretty little). Since they can't distinguish between two truths which conflict, they go with the one they have more experience with and put in the CD.

The vast majority of people with computers don't really know what they are doing with them. They don't understand a thing about them, so they develop habits and stick with them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

What percentage of the population do you think has to deal with passwords on a regular basis?

Although I get the impression that Ax deals with what are ostensibly frequent computer users rather than the general public, you do raise a good point that seems to get overlooked a lot in online discussions.

The latest figures from the US Census seem to be from 2003, but a study last year conducted by the GAO indicated that 34 percent of US households do not have a computer & 42 percent of households do not access the internet.

Considering those are household numbers, not total population numbers, so you're probably looking at more than half the population that does not access the internet, which seems to me to be the place where passwords & such most commonly come into play.

Those of us who live online tend to forget that not everyone else does.

[Axxon]

Oh, absolutely. What percentage of the population do you think has to deal with passwords on a regular basis? Let's not count kids because they could deal with any computer problems that come up better than most tech support people. Of the adults, you have a lot of people that work in jobs without a computer or with just one computer in the shop. Then you also have lots of people who stay at home. You also have lots of people who may work on a computer in the office, but have no clue what the process of connecting to the internet is like. There are also plenty of people who had their kids connect them to the internet and checked the "save password" button so they didn't need to know it.

The people whose kids set up the passwords aren't who I'm talking about. This is an interesting discussion because it's really all about how people think and how that affects their daily lives.

Me, if I'm in a situation that is new to me and that I don't understand, I tend to pay closer attention to what I'm doing and I try to be careful about what I'm doing and why in case I need to retrace my steps.

For the vast majority of people, they simply disregard the unusual and the things they can't understand and assume that these things can't possibly be relevant.


Passwords are still foreign to plenty of people, and we still haven't talked about all of the people that have no earthly idea how it could be necessary to have different passwords to different systems. That is another whole area of confusion.

I do get calls from people who say that the password we gave them isn't working when they log into AOL or their bank or whatever but this is different. I don't consider them stupid, just uneducated. My point has less to deal with the knowledge you have and more to do with how you use that knowledge/lack thereof.


I would explain the CD issue as a deviation from an accepted norm. So many things are packaged these days with the instructions to just put the CD in and watch the magic happen. People who don't know better accept that as the way things are done. You get something computer related, and you put the CD in. There is probably a brief moment of confusion when they read the note to not just put the CD in, but that goes against everything they know about computers (which is already pretty little). Since they can't distinguish between two truths which conflict, they go with the one they have more experience with and put in the CD.

The vast majority of people with computers don't really know what they are doing with them. They don't understand a thing about them, so they develop habits and stick with them.

Ok, so when confronted with two truths, one presented by a knowledgable party who created the thing you're trying to use and the other being third hand knowledge that you, someone who knows practically nothing about the product you're working with, has picked up. I guess it's natural to go with the lesser informed knowledge base.

[Axxon]

Although I get the impression that Ax deals with what are ostensibly frequent computer users rather than the general public, you do raise a good point that seems to get overlooked a lot in online discussions.

The latest figures from the US Census seem to be from 2003, but a study last year conducted by the GAO indicated that 34 percent of US households do not have a computer & 42 percent of households do not access the internet.

Considering those are household numbers, not total population numbers, so you're probably looking at more than half the population that does not access the internet, which seems to me to be the place where passwords & such most commonly come into play.

Those of us who live online tend to forget that not everyone else does.


FWIW, I deal with all levels of computer users and I'm really not discussing lack of knowledge about computers. That's not what causes what I'm talking about.

It's one thing not to know how to do something and say, do something that a trained person would laugh at. It's another thing to see something that says, do not use this and then go ahead and use it anyway.

[BrianD]

The people whose kids set up the passwords aren't who I'm talking about. This is an interesting discussion because it's really all about how people think and how that affects their daily lives.

Me, if I'm in a situation that is new to me and that I don't understand, I tend to pay closer attention to what I'm doing and I try to be careful about what I'm doing and why in case I need to retrace my steps.

For the vast majority of people, they simply disregard the unusual and the things they can't understand and assume that these things can't possibly be relevant.

I think this last line is most accurate. Though whether people assume these things can't be relevant or whether they lack the foundational knowledge to evaluate relevance, I have no idea.

Ok, so when confronted with two truths, one presented by a knowledgable party who created the thing you're trying to use and the other being third hand knowledge that you, someone who knows practically nothing about the product you're working with, has picked up. I guess it's natural to go with the lesser informed knowledge base.

I think this is going to end up printed on my tombstone, but context matters. People can trust their intuition or experience, but in a case like this they may not be able to trust the warning. Why can't they put in the CD when experience tells them that is what they should do? What is the situation where they think the CD must go in, but really doesn't?

I have noticed that even when people are talking to people who should know, they still want to know why they have to do things. They don't really want the technical information, but they want the relevant consequences. "Do not put this CD in the drive unless instructed by Tech Support" might not get through while, "Inserting this CD may damage your computer" might get their attention.

When people don't understand something, they often assume the warning doesn't apply to them...for whatever reason.

[Axxon]

Since we're talking context here's another one that always baffles me. When the customer gets to the page where it's asking for your name and address they'll invariably ask "my name and address"?

Now, if they're not the ones on the account it's a valid question but when YOU order something and give YOUR name and address both to the order taker and then to me when I ask who is on the account, then exactly why are you thinking that we may want someone else's information and the question that haunts me, "who the heck did you want to volunteer the information for and why didn't you just have them call?

Personally my thought and quest really is that we are all equally stupid at different times and for different reasons. Now, I can't do much about the rest of the people I can try and keep myself from falling prey to the more common traps that I can recognize and maybe recognize the reasons in others thus facilitating communication.

So, with that said, anyone ever do this one and what was on your mind when you asked the question.

[Axxon]

I have noticed that even when people are talking to people who should know, they still want to know why they have to do things. They don't really want the technical information, but they want the relevant consequences. "Do not put this CD in the drive unless instructed by Tech Support" might not get through while, "Inserting this CD may damage your computer" might get their attention.

When people don't understand something, they often assume the warning doesn't apply to them...for whatever reason.

Never saw this and responded but I will now that I've bumped the thread. Normally I like when people ask me why. It's a sign of thinking to me and I encourage that. Once someone asks me why then they won't likely do what your last paragraph says but occasionally, they do that as well. The following story comes to mind.

There was a guy who I told to write his information down more than once, who responded more than once that he'd indeed written it down, who then forgot what it was once he clicked the mouse for the next page then sheepishly admitted "I really didn't write it down."

Bonus points if anyone can explain that one.

[albionmoonlight]

In defense of the unwashed masses, people do tend to get a lot of "warning" information related to computers. Now, I totally agree that the response to such warnings should not be "I've listened to tech support for, like, the last 10 times. I'm just gonna ignore them this time."

However, I can at least see that when someone has been told 1,000 things with no context or weighing of relative merits (like, for instance, to always make sure that you have adequate lighting before using a computer, and to use good posture when typing, etc. etc. etc.) that some of them start to bounce off people's heads.

[BrianD]

Never saw this and responded but I will now that I've bumped the thread. Normally I like when people ask me why. It's a sign of thinking to me and I encourage that. Once someone asks me why then they won't likely do what your last paragraph says but occasionally, they do that as well. The following story comes to mind.

There was a guy who I told to write his information down more than once, who responded more than once that he'd indeed written it down, who then forgot what it was once he clicked the mouse for the next page then sheepishly admitted "I really didn't write it down."

Bonus points if anyone can explain that one.

I can sort of understand that situation. There have been times I've called customer service for something and I get a reference number for our conversation. I generally don't write that down because I never expect to need it. I've never had anyone specifically tell me to write it down though and I would probably give it more importance if someone did tell me specifically to write it down.

[Axxon]

I can sort of understand that situation. There have been times I've called customer service for something and I get a reference number for our conversation. I generally don't write that down because I never expect to need it. I've never had anyone specifically tell me to write it down though and I would probably give it more importance if someone did tell me specifically to write it down.

Yep, as a second tier I get people who don't write down the reference number so I have to look them up and that one I can understand but with this guy, I was literally hectoring this guy about it because I knew he was the kind who had no ability to remember something for more than a couple of minutes and he was being way too cavalier about it.

So granted, this particular case was the only time I've seen it that bad. I have seen many times where they are writing so much they can't find their information but this one is less odd to me as I can relate to that.

I'm really striving for understanding and you've really added a lot to the discussion for me. I wanted to let you know that. This isn't me just trying to blow off steam or bag on people.

The more I can understand them, the better I can help them and since they can't/won't/really shouldn't need to tell me where the disconnect is when we're stalling I need to do the work myself and that's why I'm asking these questions.

Today a coworker reminded me of this thread. He stated "you know what hell is? you're sitting in a cubicle and you have to spend eternity taking an endless queue of password resets."

See, this is our nightmare and to me I think I've discovered a huge, huge hole in the collective consciousness and I'm very curious about it. If it's the largest call driver, and the issues are always the same, then since we can't change the user, we have to change the system but how?

Right after that I got this one, the woman could type in the default username/password which is very long and unwieldy. She couldn't get ours.

I got the call after she'd tried for half an hour and it took me an hour to get her to type the information in but as I said, she could do the longer one.

She was able to read me the username she had typed in letter for letter backward on the screen and it was correct and with no errors. She couldn't seem to type in abc123 as the password. Finally, mercifully, someone came to her house, she put me on hold and the issue "solved itself." Passwords are funny that way.

To be fair, it works both ways. I was sent a call from our first tier agents stating that the customer couldn't access the internet and was getting an error message. I asked the customer what the error said and it said "you are about to view pages over an internet connection...."

A quick push of the ok button and issue solved. One of the easiest calls I had to deal with but I'm pretty embarrassed for our company.

[Axxon]

Today a coworker reminded me of this thread. He stated "you know what hell is? you're sitting in a cubicle and you have to spend eternity taking an endless queue of password resets."

Nope, I know of worse now. I just wrapped this one up. It's a password reset, with someone who has the telephone in one room and the computer on the other side of the house and they are not very computer literate. YIKES!!!! :D

Actually it was a fun call.

Surprisingly she got the new password in one try but unfortunately I couldn't walk her through reprovisioning the router long distance though. She's not experienced enough to follow the steps without assistance. Still, at this point I'm thinking, great customer, bad home design and it's kinda bugging me because it's giving me the tiniest of hopes for humanity. I mean, here's someone who actually got a password in one try. That's a far more obvious sign of the apocalypse than some snow in LA.

She then states that she may disconnect me but she's going to move the phone by the computer.

SCORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah, my curmudgeonly cynical nature has been reassured because surely you'd think if you're going to be troubleshooting your computer you'd have the phone by the computer first if it's at all possible but no.... ( I can see how this happens so I'm kinda just teasing a bit )

Now, it gets better. She says 'I'm going to try and move the phone to the other room. I hope I don't lose you.'

'WTF? Do you have another phone in the house?'

'No, just this one. I'm going to unplug it and plug it into the jack in the other room. I hope I don't lose you.'

Well, good luck with that one.

She got disconnected. :)

Fun call.

Don't worry. I called her back.

[Drake]

'No, just this one. I'm going to unplug it and plug it into the jack in the other room. I hope I don't lose you.'

Well, good luck with that one.

She got disconnected. :)

Fun call.

Don't worry. I called her back.

Hahahaha! I'm not sure exactly why, but this made my day.

[BrianD]

I'm wondering when the whole username/password convention will go away completely. It just seems that at some point biometrics will come into general use or a smart card, or something like that.

[DanGarion]

I did telephone technical support for just about 9 years and this is what I learned.

There are two types of people, stupid people, and me.

[Axxon]

I'm wondering when the whole username/password convention will go away completely. It just seems that at some point biometrics will come into general use or a smart card, or something like that.

I really am looking forward to that day myself. It's hard enough for me to remember all the passwords I have to use just at work not to mention in daily life. Also, I know the importance of them so I know the work involved.

For my customers it's a nightmare. There are two separate passwords they get and they're both needed and if both are forgotten we need yet a third password. I can easily see the confusion this generates.

To change this we have to
1. go to router and reset it to erase the password they don't know( this requires the third password or a hard reset that's challenging for even a tech to do due to placement of reset button, either way, not customer friendly )
2. choose new router password
3. assign new temporary isp password ( random )
4. authenticate hpl with new temporary password
5. customer changes temporary password to one they like online ( entering the temporary password on the homepage, the change password verification page ( wtf???) and the actual change password page so three times they have to enter a passord just to change it here
6. go back to router and change it there again

Now, this is pretty out there. Add in the fact that most people won't be able to accurately type this in correctly the first time and they have to get it right at every step and it's a nightmare for them and us.

I don't know the answer though to streamline the process. SHURG

[Axxon]

I did telephone technical support for just about 9 years and this is what I learned.

There are two types of people, stupid people, and me.

We're all stupid my friend. Some of us are just stupid less often and for shorter periods of time.

[DanGarion]

We're all stupid my friend. Some of us are just stupid less often and for shorter periods of time.
I know you and I have talked about phone support in the past. All I can say is, I'm so happy I no longer do it. I'm a trainer now, training technicians that do installations, such an upgrade from phone support. :D

[Axxon]

I know you and I have talked about phone support in the past. All I can say is, I'm so happy I no longer do it. I'm a trainer now, training technicians that do installations, such an upgrade from phone support. :D

That's the path I'm working on here as well. I love training. When I worked for the hospital system I designed and was the head trainer for our call center that served 700 doctors and 4 hospitals. Fun, fun times.

I don't mind the phones though. I really am fascinated by how we think and the phones are a great way to see how someone thinks and reacts when they more or less think of you as invisible and not a person.

Plus, I find the humor value in a lot of the calls to me outweigh the really bad calls.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm wondering when the whole username/password convention will go away completely. It just seems that at some point biometrics will come into general use or a smart card, or something like that.

That's the only solution I can think of. 'Course, that does nothing for anyone who loses their smart card (if that's the route).

[st.cronin]

Biometrics, please.

I don't do anything that really requires security, but I have passwords for school, work, email, etc.

I don't want something I carry around. I want the machine to look at me and recognize me.

[Axxon]

OK, I can't believe this.

My mp3 player broke so I decided to replace it. I bought my new toy and on the way home I opened the package. Right there. Right there on the faceplate is a message that says "Do not connect this device to your computer before running the installation cd."

I swear to god, for the briefest, briefest of moments I thought "as if."

Ok, ok, I never said I was perfect. :D