Tomb of Jesus (and family)

[Edward64]

Saw this on Drudge and found it fascinating. On Monday, it will be interesting to see what evidence (DNA?) Cameron comes up with.

http://time-blog.com/middle_east/

Let's go back 27 years, when Israeli construction workers were gouging out the foundations for a new building in the industrial park in the Talpiyot, a Jerusalem suburb. of Jerusalem. The earth gave way, revealing a 2,000 year old cave with 10 stone caskets. Archologists were summoned, and the stone caskets carted away for examination. It took 20 years for experts to decipher the names on the ten tombs. They were: Jesua, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Mathew, Jofa and Judah, son of Jesua.

But film-makers Cameron and Jacobovici claim to have amassed evidence through DNA tests, archeological evidence and Biblical studies, that the 10 coffins belong to Jesus and his family.

Ever the showman, (Why does this remind me of the impresario in another movie,"King Kong", whose hubris blinds him to the dangers of an angry and very large ape?) Cameron is holding a New York press conference on Monday at which he will reveal three coffins, supposedly those of Jesus of Nazareth, his mother Mary and Mary Magdalene.

[Schmidty]

Even if they have done DNA testing, who are they going to compare the results with? Superman?

[cartman]

Even if they have done DNA testing, who are they going to compare the results with? Superman?

Maybe he has the holy grail as well, and got a saliva sample off of the rim of the chalice.

[King of New York]

James Cameron.

Let me think about this for a moment...

HAHAHAHAHA

Is this the same coffin that was found a few years ago, which someone else claimed was Jesus' sarcophogus, or is this another one?

I can hardly wait to see what sort of DNA "evidence" he has.

Full disclosure: I'm a religious skeptic (don't believe in an anthropomorphic God or in miracles), but I have no patience for BS like Cameron's.

[Schmidty]

Maybe he has the holy grail as well, and got a saliva sample off of the rim of the chalice.

Yeah, I heard that H.G. Wells lent Gil Grissom his ride for a few days to check the scene for any signs of foul play.

[Easy Mac]

Even if they have done DNA testing, who are they going to compare the results with? Superman?

Stealing a joke I read at CHUD:

James Cameron will be using his own blood for DNA comparison.

He'd better be damn sure about this, otherwise he's done as a marketable filmmaker. Surely pissing off 30% of the world's population can't be good for business.

[14ers]

Didn't any of you watch Witch Blade?


The Spear of Destiny.
http://www.crystalinks.com/speardestiny.html
http://www.crystalinks.com/spearofdestiny.jpg

Also called the Holy Lance, this spear was believed to have been the weapon used to pierce the side of Jesus Christ at the Crucifixion.
Legend has it that whoever possesses the lance will rule the world.
...
or more than 1,000 years, the spear had been a symbol of power to the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire. Century after century, the legend of the Spear had been fulfilled for good or evil. Constantine the Great claimed the spear guided him through providence.
The Frankish General Karl Martel used the spear in battle.
Emperor Charlemagne lived and slept within reach of the spear, and attributed 47 battle victories to its powers.
In all, 45 emperors over 1,000 years claimed the Spear of Destiny as a possession.
Hitler decided he had to possess it.
...
In 1933, when Hitler rose to power, his 25-year obsession to possess the spear could be realized.
In April, 1938, he marched his army into Vienna and took possession of the spear and took it to Nuremberg. One year later, he invaded Poland.
On April 30, 1945, the same day Hitler supposedly killed himself, the American army invaded Nuremberg and took possession of the spear.
In the months that followed, America unleashed the most destructive force ever known to man: the atomic bomb.
While in possession of the Spear of Destiny, America became the undisputed ruler of the world.
The spear now once again resides in the Hapsburg Treasure House Museum in Vienna.

[Dutch]

In 1933, when Hitler rose to power, his 25-year obsession to possess the spear could be realized.
In April, 1938, he marched his army into Vienna and took possession of the spear and took it to Nuremberg. One year later, he invaded Poland.
On April 30, 1945, the same day Hitler supposedly killed himself, the American army invaded Nuremberg and took possession of the spear.
In the months that followed, America unleashed the most destructive force ever known to man: the atomic bomb.
While in possession of the Spear of Destiny, America became the undisputed ruler of the world.
The spear now once again resides in the Hapsburg Treasure House Museum in Vienna.


I'm guessing the Austrian's acquired the super-spear after their empire collapsed in WWI.

[MrBigglesworth]

Even if they have done DNA testing, who are they going to compare the results with? Superman?
A complete genome would be unlikely to be present, but they may have looked for certain markers in the genome that would suggest that the person whose coffin it was came from a certain area or was of a certain heritage. They maybe even just looked at mitochondrial DNA, which is passed on whole from mother to child (without combining with the father's) and thus has a more clear lineage.

I don't know enough about Mary's supposed history to know if something like that would be feasible though, for example, was Mary from a place that few other people buried near Jerusalem would be from?

[GrantDawg]

A complete genome would be unlikely to be present, but they may have looked for certain markers in the genome that would suggest that the person whose coffin it was came from a certain area or was of a certain heritage. They maybe even just looked at mitochondrial DNA, which is passed on whole from mother to child (without combining with the father's) and thus has a more clear lineage.

I don't know enough about Mary's supposed history to know if something like that would be feasible though, for example, was Mary from a place that few other people buried near Jerusalem would be from?


Actually, Mary was from Galilee. I guess I wouldn't be shocked if she had been buried in Jerusalem (there is very little said of Mary in the New Testatment after the Crucificition. The last place she is mentioned is Jerusalem), but it assumes she never returned to her home (Caperneum) where she did have other children/family. Believable I guess, but not a sure thing at all. Since she wasn't mentioned again in the activities around Jerusalem later, I would guess she eventually did return home and sort of out of the church history picture.

[Edward64]

Wonder if the 'evidence' can be tied to the Gnostic gospels somehow? I know they gave more details about Jesus' life (of course, not sanctioned).

It would be hard to prove this without some/alot of independant corroboration with other docs.

There was another website/blog that theorized this was a Jewish conspiracy to shake the Christian faith.

Wasn't the spear of destiny in the movie Constantine?

[JPhillips]

There was another website/blog that theorized this was a Jewish conspiracy to shake the Christian faith.

You'd think eating Christian babies and starting all the wars in the world was enough.

[CU Tiger]

Please tell me Geraldo will be present for the tomb opening...

[JediKooter]

Is this the new Indiana Jones movie?

[st.cronin]

I blame Dan Brown.

[rowech]

I read a book called The Sign of the Cross that I appreciated much more than the Davinci Code. Stays much more true to Christian beliefs, really makes you wonder, and then at the end has a nice pay off. Another one I liked was called The Tribune. Not the best written book (really neither are) but it has a nice twist at the end.

[Edward64]

On Larry King now. One of the skeptic is 'shrill' and annoying.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1593893,00.html?cnn=yes

Jacobovici, however, remained fascinated, and announced at the press conference what he had added to the equation :

—University of North Carolina scholar James Tabor told him that Mariamene was the name some Christians gave to Mary Magdalene. If true, that added a rather uncommon name to the statistical mix. (Or as Cameron put it, "If you found a John, a Paul and a George, you're not going to leap to any conclusions... unless you found a Ringo.").

—Jacobovici also contends that "Jose," a name that appears in the Bible as that of one of Jesus's brothers, is rarer than previous scholars thought.

— He came up with a new process called "patina fingerprinting," which purports to show that a different bone box that popped up in the hands of an Israeli collector some years ago and is alleged to have contained the remains of Jesus's brother James originally came from Talpiot, which would raise the coincidence level even higher.

—And Jacobovici managed to get tests done on DNA from the "Jesus" and "Mariamene" bone-boxes that indicated that they were not related on their mother's sides: therefore, Jacobovici quotes the DNA expert as saying, if this was indeed a family tomb, the two "would most likely have been husband and wife" (which is the source of his contention that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married and that the Judah in the tomb was their son).

That last bit alone should give some sense of how problematic some of Jacobovici's conclusions are. A sampling of difficulties:

— If "Jesus" and "Mariamene" weren't related matrilineally, why jump to the conclusion that they were husband and wife, rather than being related through their fathers?

— The first use of "Mariamene" for Magdalene dates to a scholar who was born in 185, suggesting that Magdalene wouldn't have been called that at her death.

— St. Andrews' Bauckham defends his probabilities, noting that Jacobovici was comparing his name-cluster to the rather small sampling of names known to have been found on bone boxes, while his own basis for comparison, which adds names from contemporary literature and other sources, makes the combo far less unusual.

— Asbury Theological Seminary professor Ben Witherington, a early Christianity expert who was deeply involved with the James Ossuary, says there are physical reasons to believe it couldn't have originated in the Talpiot plot.

Darrell Bock, a professor at the conservative Protestant Dallas Seminary, whom the Discovery Channel had vet the film two weeks ago, adds another objection: why would Jesus's family or followers bury his bones in a family plot and "then turn around and preach that he had been physically raised from the dead?" If that objection smacks secular readers as relying too heavily on scripture, then Bock's larger point is still trenchant: "I told them that there were too many assumptions being claimed as discoveries, and that they were trying to connect dots that didn't belong together."

[Karlifornia]

Please tell me Geraldo will be present for the tomb opening...

LOL

[primelord]

why would Jesus's family or followers bury his bones in a family plot and "then turn around and preach that he had been physically raised from the dead?"

Because the resurrection is central idea of the faith?

I really have no opinion on the tomb etc, but I don't think you can discredit it just by saying that other people reported his resurrection. The entire faith hinges on the resurrection. I don't think it is outside the realm of possibility that if his followers did not see Jesus resurrected that they still would have faith that he may have presented himself to others etc, but that in order to keep spreading the faith they would need to say he was resurrected.

[JediKooter]

I read a book called The Sign of the Cross that I appreciated much more than the Davinci Code. Stays much more true to Christian beliefs, really makes you wonder, and then at the end has a nice pay off. Another one I liked was called The Tribune. Not the best written book (really neither are) but it has a nice twist at the end.

You do know that The Davinci Code is fiction?

[Ksyrup]

They're going to use Jesus' DNA to clone him so that Michael Keaton can star in his comeback movie Multiplicity II, produced by Mel Gibson.

[Drake]

Because the resurrection is central idea of the faith?

I really have no opinion on the tomb etc, but I don't think you can discredit it just by saying that other people reported his resurrection. The entire faith hinges on the resurrection. I don't think it is outside the realm of possibility that if his followers did not see Jesus resurrected that they still would have faith that he may have presented himself to others etc, but that in order to keep spreading the faith they would need to say he was resurrected.

I thought the point of that quote was that *if* the followers were going to claim that Jesus was resurrected, why would they bury his body in the family plot under his actual name rather than in some secret location?

[Ksyrup]

If I could hide something for 2000 years, I think that would be pretty convincing evidence that where I put it was a "secret location."

[Toddzilla]

Wow - practically Godwin'd out of the gate...

[Drake]

If I could hide something for 2000 years, I think that would be pretty convincing evidence that where I put it was a "secret location."

True, but you only know it was hidden for 2000 years through hindsight.

[Ksyrup]

I don't know...it's not like this is a story that's been ignored for hundreds of years and only learned about recently. I'm thinking that people have been pretty well interested in this Jesus guy for more than a few decades.

[Drake]

I'm beginning to think that we're talking about different things, because your response seems like a non sequitur to me. *shurg*

Or are you saying that the "family plot" actually was a "secret location"? That would make sense.

Or am I just being dense today? It happens. One can't be hot, sexy *and* right all the time. (Though I really can't do anything about the hot and sexy part. It's a burden, but I carry it the best I can.)

[Ksyrup]

Or are you saying that the "family plot" actually was a "secret location"? That would make sense.

I'm saying that the family plot not being found for 2000 years means it was pretty well hidden, which could support an inference that it was intentional. It's not far-fetched to think that the bodies were buried respectfully and as a family, but still hidden well enough that people wouldn't find them.

[Drake]

Ah! I accept that point, then. I was thinking "family plot" in an ancestral sense (i.e. multiple generations prior to Jesus).

[Groundhog]

bump

Whatever happened with this? Don't tell me this didn't actually turn out to be the tomb of Jesus and friends!

[saintjo]

Nothing came out of this because there was nothing to begin with. It was just a publicity stunt for that guys documentry. Jesus was a relatively common name at the time. It would be like finding a grave labeled "Jimmy" and telling the world you found Jimmy Hoffa's body to make a few bucks.

[Edward64]

Sure if it was just Jesus, but the argument was that many of the significant names associate with Jesus Christ was also found in the tomb.

* * * *

I thought it was compelling evidence if 'all the names' listed in the tomb was validated.

However, there was some expert that stated there was a mistranslation of the names.

Have not heard how that discrepancy between experts was resolved.