WTF?

[Easy Mac]

Virginia Passes Resolution Apologizing for Slavery
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/24/slavery.apology.ap/index.html

RICHMOND, Virginia (AP) -- Meeting on the grounds of the former Confederate Capitol, the Virginia General Assembly voted unanimously Saturday to express "profound regret" for the state's role in slavery.
Sponsors of the resolution say they know of no other state that has apologized for slavery, although Missouri lawmakers are considering such a measure. The resolution does not carry the weight of law but sends an important symbolic message, supporters said.
"This session will be remembered for a lot of things, but 20 years hence I suspect one of those things will be the fact that we came together and passed this resolution," said Delegate A. Donald McEachin, a Democrat who sponsored it in the House of Delegates.
The resolution passed the House 96-0 and cleared the 40-member Senate on a unanimous voice vote. It does not require Gov. Timothy M. Kaine's approval.
The measure also expressed regret for "the exploitation of Native Americans."
The resolution was introduced as Virginia begins its celebration of the 400th anniversary of Jamestown, where the first Africans arrived in 1619. Richmond, home to a popular boulevard lined with statues of Confederate heroes, later became another point of arrival for Africans and a slave-trade hub.
The resolution says government-sanctioned slavery "ranks as the most horrendous of all depredations of human rights and violations of our founding ideals in our nation's history, and the abolition of slavery was followed by systematic discrimination, enforced segregation, and other insidious institutions and practices toward Americans of African descent that were rooted in racism, racial bias, and racial misunderstanding."
In Virginia, black voter turnout was suppressed with a poll tax and literacy tests before those practices were struck down by federal courts, and state leaders responded to federally ordered school desegregation with a "Massive Resistance" movement in the 1950s and early '60s.
The apology is the latest in a series of strides Virginia has made in overcoming its segregationist past. Virginia was the first state to elect a black governor -- L. Douglas Wilder in 1989 -- and the Legislature took a step toward atoning for Massive Resistance in 2004 by creating a scholarship fund for blacks whose schools were shut down between 1954 and 1964.
Among those voting for the measure was Delegate Frank D. Hargrove, an 80-year-old Republican who infuriated black leaders last month by saying "black citizens should get over" slavery.
After enduring a barrage of criticism, Hargrove successfully co-sponsored a resolution calling on Virginia to celebrate "Juneteenth," a holiday commemorating the end of slavery in the United States.


First off, why? Would people somehow think that "oh, VA hasn't said my bad for slavery, those bastards." Does this somehow appease the black community that I can't grasp?

Second, the first bolded item. Is this meant to convey that this somehow makes VA special and every other state douchebags?

Thirdly, the second bolded item. Is this meant to say that the only reason the people elected a black governor was because they were sorry for slavery? That has to be the most assenine reasoning in the history of elections.

I mean, yes, slavery was horrible, but who gives a damn if you vote saying you're sorry? Of course you're sorry. And lets say your ancestors came over from another country in the 1900s and you had to vote in the legislature. What good would an I'm sorry vote do? What are you sorry for? You had nothing to do with it. I just don't understand America sometimes.

[rowech]

You just make too much sense....as does probably 95% of the rest of the country's opinion. I continue to be amazed how a democracy, where majority rules, cowers to 5% of the people.

[14ers]

Legislature took a step toward atoning for Massive Resistance in 2004 by creating a scholarship fund for blacks whose schools were shut down between 1954 and 1964.
Is my math incorrect, or would this be a college scholarship fund for Black Senior Citizens?

[Easy Mac]

Is my math incorrect, or would this be a college scholarship fund for Black Senior Citizens?

I'm assuming its just poor writing on CNN's part and would be better served by using a comma.

"...creating a scholarship fund for blacks, whose schools were shut down..."

[Easy Mac]

dola, I also find it amusing that they actually had a name for keeping blacks out of college called "Massive Resistence". Its like Operation Desert Fox, but for blacks/

[MrBigglesworth]

You just make too much sense....as does probably 95% of the rest of the country's opinion. I continue to be amazed how a democracy, where majority rules, cowers to 5% of the people.
Legislatures do vote on things like renaming highways and congratulating local sports teams all the time. My guess is they had an intern write up a short resolution and then spent about 5 seconds on a voice vote where it passed unanimously. That's not a lot of effort to please '5% of the people', and hence why it was done and why similar things are done in our democracy.

[Easy Mac]

The Bill:

<center>HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 728</center> <center>AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTITUTE</center> <center>(Proposed by the Senate Committee on Rules</center> <center>on February 19, 2007)</center> <center>(Patron Prior to Substitute--Delegate McEachin)</center> Acknowledging with contrition the involuntary servitude of Africans and calling for reconciliation among all Virginians. WHEREAS, slavery has been documented as a worldwide practice since antiquity, dating back to 3500 B.C. in ancient Mesopotamia; and
WHEREAS, during the course of the infamous Atlantic slave trade, millions of Africans became involuntary immigrants to the New World, and the first African slaves in the North American colonies were brought to Jamestown in 1619; and
WHEREAS, the Atlantic slave trade was a lucrative enterprise, and African slaves, a prized commodity to support the economic base of plantations in the colonies, were traded for tropical products, manufactured goods, sugar, molasses, and other merchandise; and
WHEREAS, some African captives resisted enslavement by fleeing from slave forts on the West African coast and others mutinied aboard slave trading vessels, cast themselves into the Atlantic Ocean, or risked the cruel retaliation of their masters by running away to seek freedom; and
WHEREAS, although the United States outlawed the transatlantic slave trade in 1808, the domestic slave trade in the colonies and illegal importation continued for several decades; and
WHEREAS, slavery, or the "Peculiar Institution," in the United States resembled no other form of involuntary servitude, as Africans were captured and sold at auction as chattel, like inanimate property or animals; and
WHEREAS, to prime Africans for slavery, the ethos of the Africans was shattered, they were brutalized, humiliated, dehumanized, and subjected to the indignity of being stripped of their names and heritage, and families were disassembled as husbands and wives, mothers and daughters, and fathers and sons were sold into slavery apart from one another; and
WHEREAS, a series of complex colonial laws was enacted to relegate the status of Africans and their descendants to slavery, in spite of their loyalty, dedication, and service to the country, including heroic and distinguished service in the Civil War; and
WHEREAS, the system of slavery had become entrenched in American history and the social fabric, and the issue of enslaved Africans had to be addressed as a national issue, contributing to the Civil War from 1861 to 1865 and the passage of the 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution, which abolished slavery and involuntary servitude on December 18, 1865; and
WHEREAS, after emancipation from 246 years of slavery, African Americans soon saw the political, social, and economic gains they made during Reconstruction dissipated by virulent and rabid racism, lynchings, disenfranchisement of African-American voters, Black Codes designed to reimpose the subordination of African Americans, and Jim Crow laws that instituted a rigid system of de jure segregation in virtually all areas of life and that lasted until the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act; and
WHEREAS, throughout their existence in America and even in the decades after the Civil Rights Movement, African Americans have found the struggle to overcome the bitter legacy of slavery long and arduous, and for many African Americans the scars left behind are unbearable, haunting their psyches and clouding their vision of the future and of America's many attributes; and
WHEREAS, the crimes and persecution visited upon other peoples during World War II are acknowledged and embraced lest the world forget, yet the very mention of the broken promise of "40 acres and a mule" to former slaves or of the existence of racism today evokes denial from many quarters of any responsibility for the centuries of legally sanctioned deprivation of African Americans of their endowed rights or for contemporary policies that perpetuate the status quo; and
WHEREAS, in 2003, during a trip to Goree Island, Senegal, a former slave port, President George W. Bush stated, "Slavery is one of the greatest crimes of history, and its legacy still vexes the United States ... Small men took on the powers and airs of tyrants and masters. Years of unpunished brutality and bullying and rape produced a dullness and hardness of conscience. Christian men and women became blind to the clearest commands of their faith and added hypocrisy to injustice. While physical slavery is dead, the legacy is alive. My nation's journey toward justice has not been easy, and it is not over. For racial bigotry fed by slavery did not end with slavery or with segregation ... and many of the issues that still trouble America have roots in the bitter experience of other times ... But however long the journey, our destiny is set: liberty and justice for all"; and
WHEREAS, in the Commonwealth, home to the first African slaves, the vestiges of slavery are ever before African American citizens, from the overt racism of hate groups to the subtle racism encountered when requesting health care, transacting business, buying a home, seeking quality public education and college admission, and enduring pretextual traffic stops and other indignities; and
WHEREAS, European and African nations have apologized for their roles in what history calls the worst holocaust of humankind, the Atlantic Slave Trade, and racial reconciliation is impossible without some acknowledgment of the moral and legal injustices perpetrated upon African Americans; and
WHEREAS, centuries of brutal dehumanization and injustices cannot be erased with an apology, but acknowledgement of the wrongs and injuries perpetrated can speed racial healing and reconciliation and help African American and white citizens confront the ghosts of their collective pasts together; and
WHEREAS, the story of the enslavement of Africans and their descendants, the human carnage, and the dehumanizing atrocities committed during slavery should not be purged from Virginia's history or discounted; moreover, the faith, perseverance, hope, and endless triumphs of African Americans and their significant contributions to the development of this Commonwealth and the nation should be embraced, celebrated, and retold for generations to come; and
WHEREAS, the perpetual pain, distrust, and bitterness of many African Americans could be assuaged and the principles espoused by the Founding Fathers would be affirmed, and great strides toward unifying all Virginians and inspiring the nation to acquiesce might be accomplished, if on the eve of the commemoration of the 400th anniversary of the first permanent English settlement in the New World, the Commonwealth acknowledged and atone for its pivotal role in the slavery of Africans; now, therefore, be it
RESOLVED by the House of Delegates, the Senate concurring, That the General Assembly hereby acknowledge with contrition the involuntary servitude of Africans and call for reconciliation among all Virginians; and, be it
RESOLVED FURTHER, That the Clerk of the House of Delegates transmit a copy of this resolution to the Secretary of the Commonwealth, the Secretary of Education, the Superintendent of Public Instruction, the Executive Director of the State Council of Higher Education, the Chancellor of the Virginia Community College System, and the Executive Director of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, Virginia State Chapter, requesting that they further disseminate copies of this resolution to their respective constituents so that they may be apprised of the sense of the General Assembly of Virginia in this matter.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I really don't have a problem with a statement like this. Why do some of you think it's "cowering" to 5% of the population of appeasing the black community? Could it have simply been a thoughtful statement by the Legislature borne from a genuine regret from something in the past. It's not like their paying anyone reparations or anything like that. I mean talk about a little bit of an overreaction. Does this really bother somebody? I can think of about 5,500 other things the state or federal governments do that deserve discussion or criticism. This isn't one of them.

As for the black governor issue, I don't think the article is saying that the vote was some sort of an apology at all. The intent was to show the state had made "strides" in reforming its attitude; meaning the fact the people could see past the skin color to vote in the black governor shows how far the state has come from its segregationist past.

[KevinNU7]

The thing that bothers me is the complete waste of tax payer dollars used to create the bill, discuss it, and vote on it.

[Tekneek]

While they are at it, why don't they express profound regret that interracial marriage was illegal there until 1967 when a couple had to fight all the way to the Supreme Court to get the law changed.

Richard and Mildred Loving were married in 1958 in Washington D.C. because their home state of Virginia still upheld the antimiscegenation law which stated that interracial marriages were illegal. They were married, then lived together in Caroline County, Virginia. In 1959 they were prosecuted and convicted of violating the states's antimiscegenation law. They were each sentenced one year in jail, but promised the sentence would be suspended if they agreed to leave the state and not return for 25 years. Forced to move, they returned to Washington D.C. where, in 1963, they initiated a suit challenging the constitutionality of the antimiscegenation law. In March of 1966, the Virginia Supreme Court of Appeals upheld the law, but in June of 1967, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously ruled the law unconstitutional. Thus, in 1967 the 16 states which still had antimiscegenation laws on their books were forced to erase them.

[Subby]

The worst part about the whole thing is I already apologized for slavery on behalf of the state back in like 1983...:mad::mad::mad:

[Raiders Army]

Hey, what about the Chinese who built our railroads? You apologize to the African slaves and the Native slaves, but what about all those other slaves? Shouldn't we apologize to Mexican slaves who work for less than minimum wage?

[John Galt]

Given that every state that encouraged and made slavery possible has refused to apologize since, I think this is a positive thing that is long overdue. Better late than never.

[Tekneek]

Shouldn't we apologize to Mexican slaves who work for less than minimum wage?

:D

[CU Tiger]

Given that every state that encouraged and made slavery possible has refused to apologize since, I think this is a positive thing that is long overdue. Better late than never.

#1 that would be all 13 original colonies.
New York, for example, had popular auctions close to Coney Island wheer aristocratic types could bid for the most "attractive" units.

While we are apologizing, my great great great grandfather (hereforth known a GGGGF) once slapped subby's great great great grandfather's mule. I am very sorry for this transgression and would like it to be known to all that I do not support the animal abusing acts of GGGGF. I wish that evryone would hence forth disacociate me with historic mule abusers.

[rowech]

I guess I should apologize for Japaneese camps in WWII? Should I apologize for murdering millions of people in this country? Robbing banks throughout the country? The bottom line...none of us were alive when this crap happened so why should anyone alive today have to apologize for squat?

I'm simply not in the habit of apologizing for crap I didn't do and don't believe anyone should do it on my behalf either.

[JPhillips]

There's way too much anger in here for a symbolic resolution.

[WSUCougar]

Given that every state that encouraged and made slavery possible has refused to apologize since, I think this is a positive thing that is long overdue. Better late than never.
Yup

And I don't see the harm in it, given how pivotal slavery was (and is) in the history of our nation.

[QuikSand]

So, in my mind, this raises another potential absurdity.

We have, from time to time, seen governmental bodies pressured to take stances to defend the bible from various issues or conventions that seem to run counter to its teachings. I'm thinking of the silly notions within the recent past to have various states declare that the value of pi=3, since there are one or two references to this ratio in the bible as such. I suppose some of the recent pressure to deny rights to homosexuals in commited relationships could be seen the same way, though that's not my main context for this.

Anyway... I know that the bible also makes many mentions of slavery, detailing the way one ought to treat one's slaves, and whether it's appropriate to beat them and so forth. So, it's pretty clear that the bible generally gives a big thumbs up to slavery.

So... will these "pi=3 type" bible defenders come out in protest of this recent Virginia decision, on account of the fact that it rejects and apologizes for slavery, when the bible says that slavery is just peachy?

[cougarfreak]

My ancestors came over as indentured servants, when am I getting my apology?

[Coffee Warlord]

I'd like to apologize to all those of English, Scottish, and Irish nationalities. We of Scandanavian heritage deeply regret sending our longboats to your shores, killing your people, and looting your towns.

[Abe Sargent]

Anyway... I know that the bible also makes many mentions of slavery, detailing the way one ought to treat one's slaves, and whether it's appropriate to beat them and so forth. So, it's pretty clear that the bible generally gives a big thumbs up to slavery.

So... will these "pi=3 type" bible defenders come out in protest of this recent Virginia decision, on account of the fact that it rejects and apologizes for slavery, when the bible says that slavery is just peachy?


The Bible's account of slavery is much different than our own. We had slaves based on race, transported from their homes across an ocean in boats packed to overflowing with little food and rampant disease on teh boats, only to have said boats land on our shores and then have our system treat them like cattle that can rebel. This was truly an evil system.

On the other hand, in the Old Testament, slavery was a system of debt-reconciliation. If I borrowed more money than I could afford to pay back, then I went into slavery to the person to whom I owed money unitl I either worked it off or after seven years. Slavery as a form of debt collection to someone who chooses to borrow knowing the system and is only temporary is much different that slavery of an entire race ripped from their homes on a permanent basis.,


-Anxiety

[EagleFan]

Given that every state that encouraged and made slavery possible has refused to apologize since, I think this is a positive thing that is long overdue. Better late than never.

Positive? It is a nothing at best. This act won't change one damn thing. It's not going to change what happened and it's certainly not going to change anything where race relations are concerned (now of the future). It is a waste of time and anyone with half a brain and common sense can see that.

People need to learn to get the hell over the past and stop fooling themselves into believing that something like this will affect anything at all. It's a waste of time for the legislature for something that has no affect at all.

[John Galt]

It is a waste of time and anyone with half a brain and common sense can see that.

Maybe you could learn a lesson from the Virginia legislature and apologize for being a jerk.

[John Galt]

The bottom line...none of us were alive when this crap happened so why should anyone alive today have to apologize for squat?

You may not have been alive, but Virginia as a state certainly was. The state made slavery possible and actively encouraged the slave trade. Virginia has refused to apologize for its role in the slave trade for over 100 years despite many requests to do so. And Virginia would not look like it does today if not for slavery. What Virginia did was wrong, very, very wrong. That, to me, is the perfect occassion for an apology.

For those who think an apology doesn't accomplish anything, why does an apology have to do anything? When you apologize for something, is it only because you have a hidden motive? Apologies, IMO, are the right thing to do precisely because they accomplish nothing - they are gesture, no more, no less. If you actually expect to accomplish something with an apology, than that doesn't strike me as a sincere apology.

[JonInMiddleGA]

My ancestors came over as indentured servants, when am I getting my apology?

The odds will improve considerably when there's a cottage industry devoted to whining on your behalf (whether you're asking them to or not).

[rowech]

You may not have been alive, but Virginia as a state certainly was. The state made slavery possible and actively encouraged the slave trade. Virginia has refused to apologize for its role in the slave trade for over 100 years despite many requests to do so. And Virginia would not look like it does today if not for slavery. What Virginia did was wrong, very, very wrong. That, to me, is the perfect occassion for an apology.

For those who think an apology doesn't accomplish anything, why does an apology have to do anything? When you apologize for something, is it only because you have a hidden motive? Apologies, IMO, are the right thing to do precisely because they accomplish nothing - they are gesture, no more, no less. If you actually expect to accomplish something with an apology, than that doesn't strike me as a sincere apology.

With all respect that is not at all why you offer an apology. You offer an apology in hopes of receiving forgiveness from the person you have wronged. I have not wronged anyone, so therefore I should not offer an apology.

[John Galt]

With all respect that is not at all why you offer an apology. You offer an apology in hopes of receiving forgiveness from the person you have wronged. I have not wronged anyone, so therefore I should not offer an apology.

Who asked you to apologize? And I guess I disagree with your assessment of why someone apologizes, but I understand your point of view on that.

[MJ4H]

So, in my mind, this raises another potential absurdity.

We have, from time to time, seen governmental bodies pressured to take stances to defend the bible from various issues or conventions that seem to run counter to its teachings. I'm thinking of the silly notions within the recent past to have various states declare that the value of pi=3, since there are one or two references to this ratio in the bible as such. I suppose some of the recent pressure to deny rights to homosexuals in commited relationships could be seen the same way, though that's not my main context for this.

Anyway... I know that the bible also makes many mentions of slavery, detailing the way one ought to treat one's slaves, and whether it's appropriate to beat them and so forth. So, it's pretty clear that the bible generally gives a big thumbs up to slavery.

So... will these "pi=3 type" bible defenders come out in protest of this recent Virginia decision, on account of the fact that it rejects and apologizes for slavery, when the bible says that slavery is just peachy?

There are some gross simplifications in this post.

[Easy Mac]

So has the African continent ever apologized for the slave trade? It would seem they are the worst offenders.

[Pumpy Tudors]

As a black man and a thug, I would like to see an apology from ...

Never mind.

[Axxon]

There are some gross simplifications in this post.

Indeed. One sentence posts often are simplified. ;)

[rowech]

Who asked you to apologize? And I guess I disagree with your assessment of why someone apologizes, but I understand your point of view on that.

If I'm a person in a state and my legislature apologizes on behalf of the state, then they are doing so for every citizen within the state. If I'm a resident of the state, I simply don't want them apologizing on my behalf for something I was not involved in.

I'm curious why you think people apologize though?

[John Galt]

If I'm a person in a state and my legislature apologizes on behalf of the state, then they are doing so for every citizen within the state. If I'm a resident of the state, I simply don't want them apologizing on my behalf for something I was not involved in.

I'm curious why you think people apologize though?

I think a state apologizes for the sins of not just its current citizens, but all citizens that have come before (especially when they had MANY chances to apologize when former slaves were still alive and refused to do so). States don't have lifespans like people (unless the foundational government changes). Virginia made slavery possible. It abused a great many people. Thus, I think it should apologize. States do many things that some of its citizens don't want. That's democracy and doesn't trouble me at all.

As for me - I believe a "pure" apology, if there is such a thing, is only done for no motive at all. It is a statement that you have done wrong and feel regret for that wrong. If someone forgives you that is nice, but that shouldn't be the motive for the apology, IMO.

[Axxon]

If I'm a person in a state and my legislature apologizes on behalf of the state, then they are doing so for every citizen within the state. If I'm a resident of the state, I simply don't want them apologizing on my behalf for something I was not involved in.

I'm curious why you think people apologize though?

Public Relations all the way. That's why they apologize. It pleases the sheep.

When you're really sorry you show remorse and make amends. Otherwise, you apologize.

Just my observations on human nature.

[flere-imsaho]

Is my math incorrect, or would this be a college scholarship fund for Black Senior Citizens?

Actually, believe it or not, it was a scholarship fund for Blacks who would have gone to college in the 50s. NPR did a story on it last year. The people they interviewed who were eligible were mostly in retirement, but appreciated the chance to get their degrees.

I'd like to apologize to all those of English, Scottish, and Irish nationalities. We of Scandanavian heritage deeply regret sending our longboats to your shores, killing your people, and looting your towns.

Oh, sure you do.... :p

The odds will improve considerably when there's a cottage industry devoted to whining on your behalf (whether you're asking them to or not).

Already exists. (http://www.house.gov/)

[rowech]

As for me - I believe a "pure" apology, if there is such a thing, is only done for no motive at all. It is a statement that you have done wrong and feel regret for that wrong. If someone forgives you that is nice, but that shouldn't be the motive for the apology, IMO.

I don't really disagree with you...I definitely don't feel the person has to offer you an acceptance...you are merely seeking it. If it doesn't happen, then you have offered your remorse and reconcile things within yourself.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by John Galt

As for me - I believe a "pure" apology, if there is such a thing, is only done for no motive at all. It is a statement that you have done wrong and feel regret for that wrong. If someone forgives you that is nice, but that shouldn't be the motive for the apology, IMO.

I don't really disagree with you...I definitely don't feel the person has to offer you an acceptance...you are merely seeking it. If it doesn't happen, then you have offered your remorse and reconcile things within yourself.

I agree, apologizing without expecting an acceptance is okay.

I think it is appropriate for an apology, have no problems with it. Reparations in current time is a different matter.

[Oilers9911]

When do the citizens of Oakland get their apology for the Raiders?

[adubroff]

So has the African continent ever apologized for the slave trade? It would seem they are the worst offenders.


You posted:

WHEREAS, European and African nations have apologized for their roles in what history calls the worst holocaust of humankind, the Atlantic Slave Trade, and racial reconciliation is impossible without some acknowledgment of the moral and legal injustices perpetrated upon African Americans;

[Senator]

Hitler....

[MrBigglesworth]

Positive? It is a nothing at best. This act won't change one damn thing. It's not going to change what happened and it's certainly not going to change anything where race relations are concerned (now of the future). It is a waste of time and anyone with half a brain and common sense can see that.

People need to learn to get the hell over the past and stop fooling themselves into believing that something like this will affect anything at all. It's a waste of time for the legislature for something that has no affect at all.
So if it has no effect, then why have so many people been lobbying for it? And why has the state refused for so long to apologize? If my great great grandfather had been enslaved, and my state maintained implicit support for him being enslaved, I would be pretty pissed. The actions of the state legislature through the years (Jim Crow laws, interracial marriage laws, etc) have reflected the racist thoughts of the people. Having the legislature now denounce these things is a step in the positive direction of signaling to new generations that it was wrong to think that way. And all for the cost of a 5 second vote.

[kcchief19]

The Bible's account of slavery is much different than our own. We had slaves based on race, transported from their homes across an ocean in boats packed to overflowing with little food and rampant disease on teh boats, only to have said boats land on our shores and then have our system treat them like cattle that can rebel. This was truly an evil system.

On the other hand, in the Old Testament, slavery was a system of debt-reconciliation. If I borrowed more money than I could afford to pay back, then I went into slavery to the person to whom I owed money unitl I either worked it off or after seven years. Slavery as a form of debt collection to someone who chooses to borrow knowing the system and is only temporary is much different that slavery of an entire race ripped from their homes on a permanent basis.,


-Anxiety
That's not entirely correct. Slaves were only emancipated if they were Jewish. If the slave took a wife after entering slavery, the wife and the children belonged to the master. Females sold into slavery by their father were never freed. It was also OK to have consensual or non-consensual sex with a female slave; if she were engaged to be married, you had to sacrifice an animal at temple to be forgiven, but if she were not engaged there was no penalty.

So it's OK to enslave someone because they are poor or women, but not because of race. That's a fine moral line.

[Noop]

Wow.... The nature of man.

[kcchief19]

The thing that bothers me is the complete waste of tax payer dollars used to create the bill, discuss it, and vote on it.
There are plenty of people who would be just fine with a state legislature spending time on a symbolic gesture with no real impact rather than many of the other things they could be spending time on, such as raising/cutting taxes, decreasing/increasing spending or fixing something that isn't broken.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

There's way too much anger in here for a symbolic resolution.

Seriously, the degree to which people get upset over these things is probably the strongest evidence of the need for them. People like to pretend this all in the past and everything is better now, but it sure strikes a raw nerve.

[WSUCougar]

Positive? It is a nothing at best. This act won't change one damn thing. It's not going to change what happened and it's certainly not going to change anything where race relations are concerned (now of the future). It is a waste of time and anyone with half a brain and common sense can see that.

People need to learn to get the hell over the past and stop fooling themselves into believing that something like this will affect anything at all. It's a waste of time for the legislature for something that has no affect at all.
Hmmm, shall we take a look and assess the statements in this one little post?

1. "Positive? It is a nothing at best. This act won't change one damn thing. It's not going to change what happened and it's certainly not going to change anything where race relations are concerned (now of the future)."

Wow! All this time and I never realized that EagleFan was either (a) God or (b) a member of the Q Continuum. All knowing, all seeing. Impressive.

2. "It is a waste of time and anyone with half a brain and common sense can see that."

See, I haven't been to Oz yet to get my brain, so I don't even have half of one. Thomas Paine said something about common sense, but not having a brain I don't have a clue what it was. But I think the gist of your statement is: "I don't agree with you, so you are stupid." Always a good basis for enlightened discussion.

3. "People need to learn to get the hell over the past and stop fooling themselves into believing that something like this will affect anything at all."

Of course your ominpotent perspective grants you insights into this issue that are beyond us brainless sheep types, but the getting "the hell over the past" part of your statement is what really grabbed me. I would argue that you need a better understanding of the past to grasp that this might have just a little bit of impact.

4. "It's a waste of time for the legislature for something that has no affect at all."

Whew! There goes around 95% of what legislatures do. Now they can play more cribbage and get more haircuts!

[EagleFan]

You may not have been alive, but Virginia as a state certainly was. The state made slavery possible and actively encouraged the slave trade. Virginia has refused to apologize for its role in the slave trade for over 100 years despite many requests to do so. And Virginia would not look like it does today if not for slavery. What Virginia did was wrong, very, very wrong. That, to me, is the perfect occassion for an apology.

For those who think an apology doesn't accomplish anything, why does an apology have to do anything? When you apologize for something, is it only because you have a hidden motive? Apologies, IMO, are the right thing to do precisely because they accomplish nothing - they are gesture, no more, no less. If you actually expect to accomplish something with an apology, than that doesn't strike me as a sincere apology.

Apologies are supposed to set things striahgt with the person offended (that freaking is an accomplishment). The persons offended and the persons soing the offending are no longer around, this is a hollow act that accomplished nothing. Nothing gets set straight, no one will come together because of this. This is just more politically correct BS and a waste of tax payer money (the time taken to even do this).

For your other attempt at a post where you seem to be calling me a jerk: Again you misunderstand this situation by saying that I should aplogize. To truly make this situation the same, in about 150 years a relative of mine would have to apologize to a relative of yours with both of us being long since buried. That would be just as much of a waste of time for all partied involved as this is. But then again, there is no need for me to apologize for speaking my mind but I should apologize to everyone for being an enabler in this situation.

This apology would only actually mean anything, or even accomplish anything if it was done around 1870. But there were too many bone headed and ignorant people back then to have actually come to a realization of how bad the situation was for that to have happened.

If a state wants to apologize for something, how about apologizing for having areas of growing poverty and allowing those who are born into extreme poverty to remain there without having the same opportunities as the rest of us (regardless of race). Maybe apologize for not having state sponsored full scholarships for students who maintain a B average in high school, easily funded by a lottery. Maybe apologize for not keeping property taxes under control or for the cost of health care or allowing our jobs to be sent overseas (though that should be a federal apology). There are a lot more important issues to apologize for (though solving them is what is really important).

[EagleFan]

Hmmm, shall we take a look and assess the statements in this one little post?

1. "Positive? It is a nothing at best. This act won't change one damn thing. It's not going to change what happened and it's certainly not going to change anything where race relations are concerned (now of the future)."

Wow! All this time and I never realized that EagleFan was either (a) God or (b) a member of the Q Continuum. All knowing, all seeing. Impressive.

2. "It is a waste of time and anyone with half a brain and common sense can see that."

See, I haven't been to Oz yet to get my brain, so I don't even have half of one. Thomas Paine said something about common sense, but not having a brain I don't have a clue what it was. But I think the gist of your statement is: "I don't agree with you, so you are stupid." Always a good basis for enlightened discussion.

3. "People need to learn to get the hell over the past and stop fooling themselves into believing that something like this will affect anything at all."

Of course your ominpotent perspective grants you insights into this issue that are beyond us brainless sheep types, but the getting "the hell over the past" part of your statement is what really grabbed me. I would argue that you need a better understanding of the past to grasp that this might have just a little bit of impact.

4. "It's a waste of time for the legislature for something that has no affect at all."

Whew! There goes around 95% of what legislatures do. Now they can play more cribbage and get more haircuts!

I was ready for a nice long response that was about to land me in the penalty box but have come to my senses. Maybe that is something you should try (the whole coming to your senses part - I figure you need a little help understanding so please read slowly)...

Instead I will simply go with this... :rolleyes:

[EagleFan]

So if it has no effect, then why have so many people been lobbying for it?

Why did so many people want to change the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries? I wanted to see Maximum Football released too and all that left me with was an empty feeling. Just because "so many" people want something doesn't make it worthwhile.

[EagleFan]

Tri-dola: Imagine that, Bigglesworth had to chime in...

[Axxon]

Hmmm, shall we take a look and assess the statements in this one little post?



2. "It is a waste of time and anyone with half a brain and common sense can see that."

See, I haven't been to Oz yet to get my brain, so I don't even have half of one. Thomas Paine said something about common sense, but not having a brain I don't have a clue what it was. But I think the gist of your statement is: "I don't agree with you, so you are stupid." Always a good basis for enlightened discussion.


Well, since you've already admitted not having a brain, any basis for an enlightened discussion is as good as any other.

I'm just sayin... ;)

[molson]

Seriously, the degree to which people get upset over these things is probably the strongest evidence of the need for them. People like to pretend this all in the past and everything is better now, but it sure strikes a raw nerve.

I agree with that - why are people choosing THIS to be so damned upset over? What do people think legislative bodies do?

[Axxon]

I agree with that - why are people choosing THIS to be so damned upset over? What do people think legislative bodies do?

I don't know but if the answer is "make lavish salaries to draft non binding, non problem solving, feel good resolutions with the intentions of helping no one but themselves, by keeping themselves in said jobs by making people feel all warm and fuzzy inside while doing nothing" then I'd say that they'd be right.

[Pumpy Tudors]

One of these days, I'm going to come up with some shit that's going to polarize members of FOFC in ways you all never thought possible. The rift between the two sides will be so large that even John Daly would be able to fit into it.

Nothing brings me more joy than to see the same people fighting over the same things with no hope of resolution or even simple discussion. Insults fly, sarcasm flies, and some people only end up disliking others even more than they did at the start.

I'm going to make this happen. OSU-Michigan ain't gonna have nothing on this shit.

[Easy Mac]

Strom Thurmond and Al Sharpton are related:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/25/sharpton.thurmond.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Although, to be honest, I assumed that he had merely fathered Sharpton, just like old times.

[BrianD]

One of these days, I'm going to come up with some shit that's going to polarize members of FOFC in ways you all never thought possible. The rift between the two sides will be so large that even John Daly would be able to fit into it.

Nothing brings me more joy than to see the same people fighting over the same things with no hope of resolution or even simple discussion. Insults fly, sarcasm flies, and some people only end up disliking others even more than they did at the start.

I'm going to make this happen. OSU-Michigan ain't gonna have nothing on this shit.

You could start with a discussion on how NBA players are not thugs even though they are basically highly paid slaves. That should get things going in the right direction. If you can find a way to work in the liberal media and republican big business, you may have a winner.

[st.cronin]

You could start with a discussion on how NBA players are not thugs even though they are basically highly paid slaves. That should get things going in the right direction. If you can find a way to work in the liberal media and republican big business, you may have a winner.

Also work in something about werewolf posts counting 3/5 and I think you've got a winner.

[Axxon]

One of these days, I'm going to come up with some shit that's going to polarize members of FOFC in ways you all never thought possible. The rift between the two sides will be so large that even John Daly would be able to fit into it.

Nothing brings me more joy than to see the same people fighting over the same things with no hope of resolution or even simple discussion. Insults fly, sarcasm flies, and some people only end up disliking others even more than they did at the start.

I'm going to make this happen. OSU-Michigan ain't gonna have nothing on this shit.

Not to worry though, because 2000 years later, Skydog's descendants will apologize for any inconvenience to any offended parties.

[Easy Mac]

Not to worry though, because 2000 years later, Skydog's descendants will apologize for any inconvenience to any offended parties.

thank god the tables will have turned.

[Axxon]

thank god the tables will have turned.

:D

[Noop]

No Point....

[Izulde]

A fucking history?

Oh stop, you're making my virginal ears blush. :D

[Easy Mac]

That's right, it's black history month... that explains the bill. Seamus, or whoever asked when they would say sorry for indentured servitude, they'll get to it during white history month.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

I don't know but if the answer is "make lavish salaries to draft non binding, non problem solving, feel good resolutions with the intentions of helping no one but themselves, by keeping themselves in said jobs by making people feel all warm and fuzzy inside while doing nothing" then I'd say that they'd be right.

Yeah, the Virginia state legislators are really raking in the bucks (http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legismgt/about/05salary.htm):


Virginia
$18,000/year Senate
$17,640/year House

This may be shocking to some, but very few people get into politics for the money... Even when you look at federal legislators, who at least make enough to live on, if you look at the professional and educational backgrounds of most of those people you'll realize they could be making a hell of a lot more money in the private sector.

[Buccaneer]

I had a great-great-great-uncle that fought against the Confederacy in Virginia and died at Andersonville. I'm covered.

[st.cronin]

I had a great-great-great-uncle that fought against the Confederacy in Virginia and died at Andersonville. I'm covered.

I used to date a girl whose family was "old money" from North Carolina. Whenever we got into any kind of fight, my fallback line was: "Look, my ancestors dispossesed your ancestors of their slaves at rifle point. So, what were you saying?"

[Axxon]

Yeah, the Virginia state legislators are really raking in the bucks (http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legismgt/about/05salary.htm):



This may be shocking to some, but very few people get into politics for the money... Even when you look at federal legislators, who at least make enough to live on, if you look at the professional and educational backgrounds of most of those people you'll realize they could be making a hell of a lot more money in the private sector.

It may shock you but I have a pretty good handle on how it works and if you think someone spends several times the yearly salary of the job they're
not doing it for the love of public service.

Everybody has interests and most interests aren't based on any base salary; it's power. Michael Jordan for example didn't play basketball for his base salary, neither does Beckham. They both make more money because of what their jobs are, not because of what they're paid.

[molson]

"make lavish salaries to draft non binding, non problem solving, feel good resolutions with the intentions of helping no one but themselves, by keeping themselves in said jobs by making people feel all warm and fuzzy inside while doing nothing" then I'd say that they'd be right.

That's kind of my point, you used "resolutions" in plural, but the only one people seem overly considered about is this one.

[Raiders Army]

Why do they call it Black History month, but it's for people who prefer to be called African-Americans? Is it because African-Americans also include white people? Or is it because not all people like to be called African-Americans and prefer to be Black?

[MrBigglesworth]

Why did so many people want to change the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries? I wanted to see Maximum Football released too and all that left me with was an empty feeling. Just because "so many" people want something doesn't make it worthwhile.
Your anger seems to be with these people that are offended that their ancestors were enslaved and the state fought their freedom tooth and nail, then proceeded to discriminate against them whenever possible for a hundred years afterward. I think it's natural to be offended by that, especially if they themselves had lived under Jim Crow. Whether it's worthwhile or not for a government to apologize for past failings is an opinion, and not as cut and dry as the 'you're an idiot if you think different than me' that you make it out to be.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

It may shock you but I have a pretty good handle on how it works and if you think someone spends several times the yearly salary of the job they're not doing it for the love of public service.

I've known and spoken with too many people who have run for and held elective office (including family members) to regard this as anything but bullshit. People make tremendous sacrifices of money, time, and effort in order to participate in the political life of this country with little expectation of being rewarded at the end of the day with glory or riches (particularly at the state and local level). The fact that they are regularly denigrated by people like you is hardly an aid to getting decent and effective people involved in the political process. We get the government we deserve...

[BrianD]

That's right, it's black history month... that explains the bill. Seamus, or whoever asked when they would say sorry for indentured servitude, they'll get to it during white history month.

So basically, any month other than February?

[BrianD]

Why do they call it Black History month, but it's for people who prefer to be called African-Americans? Is it because African-Americans also include white people? Or is it because not all people like to be called African-Americans and prefer to be Black?

Speaking of which, what is the proper term these days? I'd like to think "Americans" covers it, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[st.cronin]

Does anybody know what percentage of Americans (or black Americans) are actually descended from slaves?

[MrBigglesworth]

Does anybody know what percentage of Americans (or black Americans) are actually descended from slaves?

Google does: 35 million total, about 12 percent

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:tEso9Sdntv8J:www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ffile%3D/chronicle/archive/2002/04/14/MN38175.DTL+percentage+of+americans+descended+from+slaves&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=15&gl=us&client=firefox-a

[Easy Mac]

Google does: 35 million total, about 12 percent

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:tEso9Sdntv8J:www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ffile%3D/chronicle/archive/2002/04/14/MN38175.DTL+percentage+of+americans+descended+from+slaves&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=15&gl=us&client=firefox-a

So every black person in America descended from slaves, because there's only 33 million black people in America.

[st.cronin]

So every black person in America descended from slaves, because there's only 33 million black people in America.

Well, its probably that some "white" people are descended from slaves. But I think that article is just assuming that all blacks are descended from slaves. I was hoping for a more scientific answer.

[Easy Mac]

I'd like to know how many people are decended from slave owners.

[MrBigglesworth]

So every black person in America descended from slaves, because there's only 33 million black people in America.
These figures are obviously changing all the time:
In current demographics, according to 2005 U.S. Census figures, some 39.9 million African Americans live in the United States

[Mustang]

You could start with a discussion on how NBA players are not thugs even though they are basically highly paid slaves. That should get things going in the right direction. If you can find a way to work in the liberal media and republican big business, you may have a winner.

Just make a separate POL forum where posts don't count...

[ISiddiqui]

That's kind of my point, you used "resolutions" in plural, but the only one people seem overly considered about is this one.

Yeah, it is very interesting. Non-binding resolutions get passed all the time, praising one thing, expressing disapproval of another, but this one gets anger at it?