The Black Donnelly's...Spoiler alert

[Lathum]

So far prety good show. I like the actors and charectures and you can see some pretty neat story lines developing. Definatly has a "Departed" feel to it which I am sure is no coincidence.

Great twist at the end...

[Lathum]

ummm

wicked cool ending...

[Izulde]

The ending was the best part of the show, but overall I felt it was extremely mediocre.

I hated most of the actors and the characters were pretty cookie cutter.

It might turn out okay though.

[adubroff]

I thought they laid the ground for a good series...I haven't been excited for a network series in a while....

[Swaggs]

I can't trust another drama series that begins at 10:00 PM. No matter how good they are, the networks never seem to give them the support/opportunity to succeed, so they just end up blue balling you right before they get pulled off the air.

Hopefully this one will work out and then I will consider checking the first season out on DVD and joining in for next year.

[Lathum]

I can't trust another drama series that begins at 10:00 PM. No matter how good they are, the networks never seem to give them the support/opportunity to succeed, so they just end up blue balling you right before they get pulled off the air.

Hopefully this one will work out and then I will consider checking the first season out on DVD and joining in for next year.

I would think having them following Hero's shows some support

[sachmo71]

The ending was the best part of the show, but overall I felt it was extremely mediocre.

I hated most of the actors and the characters were pretty cookie cutter.

It might turn out okay though.

I agree with this sexy bitch.

[JonInMiddleGA]

wicked cool ending...

Unfortunately for the show, about 1/3rd of those who were watching at the beginning didn't see the ending.

http://www.medialifemagazine.com/artman/publish/article_10450.asp
NBC saw mixed results for the premiere of “The Black Donnellys” last night. On the one hand, the show bettered last week’s rating for former timeslot occupant “Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip” by 35 percent. On the other, “Donnellys” showed an alarming dip in its second half and was nowhere near the rating “Studio 60” drew in its premiere last September.

“Donnellys” averaged a 3.5 adults 18-49 rating last night at 10 p.m., according to Nielsen overnights, up 35 percent over last week’s series-low 2.6 for “Studio 60.”

But that debut rating was partially inflated by runover from “Donnellys’” lead-in, “Heroes,” which ran to 10:03 p.m. last night. In its second half hour, the Irish mob drama dipped from a 4.1 to a 2.8, a decline of 32 percent.

Also, “Donnellys” was nowhere near the 5.0 that “Studio 60” averaged in its September debut, despite having a stronger lead-in. (“Heroes” debuted a week later.)

The big question now is how “Donnellys” will perform in its second week. It never bodes well for a show to see a big decline in its second half hour, no matter how strong its lead-in. But if “Donnellys” can continue to outrate “Studio 60,” NBC may be satisfied with that, at least for a bit.

The network did manage to win the night, something that “Studio 60’s” low numbers had been preventing the past few weeks.

[Ksyrup]

I'm certainly not the typical TV viewer, but I didn't like the entire premise of the show just from seeing the commercials. The whole "bad boys the girls fall in love with" angle is so played out and stereotypical as to be laughable as the central theme for a new show. By the end of the commercial, I was actually angry that they were attempting to get me to watch something with that kind of storyline.

[Easy Mac]

I'm certainly not the typical TV viewer, but I didn't like the entire premise of the show just from seeing the commercials. The whole "bad boys the girls fall in love with" angle is so played out and stereotypical as to be laughable as the central theme for a new show. By the end of the commercial, I was actually angry that they were attempting to get me to watch something with that kind of storyline.

well then you were misled. The girl fell in love with him because he wasn't one of the bad guys like everyone else, and now that's he going "bad", she seems to have a problem.

That being said, the ending more or less redeemed the rest of the episode, which was ungodly slow.

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://www.medialifemagazine.com/artman/publish/article_10604.asp

Finding a show that can hold hit “Heroes’” lead-in on Monday nights is proving difficult for NBC. After bumping its highly touted but fading “Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip” from the 10 p.m. Monday slot for dark new drama “The Black Donnellys,” the latter showed declines in its second week despite a bigger “Heroes” lead-in.

“Donnellys” averaged a 3.0 adults 18-49 rating, according to Nielsen overnights, down 14 percent from last week’s 3.5 overnight average, which did include a very small "Heroes" runover.

The show fell 18 percent, from a 3.3 to a 2.7, from its first half hour to its second, mirroring the declines that “Studio 60” registered early in its run. And it fumbled more than half its big “Heroes” lead-in of 6.6.

Last week “Donnellys” retained 55 percent of “Heroes’” 18-49 audience. This week it retained just 45 percent, despite airing against a repeat of CBS’s “CSI: Miami,” which usually dominates the timeslot.

“Donnellys” dipped below “Studio 60’s” season-to-date 3.5 average, though it’s still above what the show averaged in its last few original outings.

This may eventually prompt NBC to try another show in the 10 p.m. slot before the season ends. “Donnellys” should stay put for at least a few weeks as “Heroes” slips into reruns, and perhaps be replaced when new “Heroes” return.

Just which show could get the desirable slot is uncertain. The network also tried “Friday Night Lights” in a one-time stunt last fall, but it fared about the same as “Studio 60.”

[Ksyrup]

well then you were misled. The girl fell in love with him because he wasn't one of the bad guys like everyone else, and now that's he going "bad", she seems to have a problem.

That being said, the ending more or less redeemed the rest of the episode, which was ungodly slow.

OK, then the "I can change the bad boy I'm in love with" angle is just as bad.

I don't know, dramas as a whole are pretty unappealing to me, since there's very little unique about the storylines. And I generally don't need fictional stress to heap on top of the stress of living my life.

*shurg*

[BrianD]

OK, then the "I can change the bad boy I'm in love with" angle is just as bad.

I don't know, dramas as a whole are pretty unappealing to me, since there's very little unique about the storylines. And I generally don't need fictional stress to heap on top of the stress of living my life.

*shurg*

I think she made it pretty clear they weren't going to happen. I thought it was a nice little departure from the typical blind devotion to the good/bad guy.

The show is very intense. Normally I'd like to see some kind of light relief in a show like this, but I'll give it a few more weeks to see how it goes.

[Poli]

Was it on last night? Dang it, I hate work.

[adubroff]

Last night did not grab me as much as the first one...I did actually put time aside to watch it and I knew when it would be on. In fact I'm probably the only person in the universe who watched Heroes for the first time because of the Black Donnellys.

That being said, I think there are a couple of interesting things about the show:

1) I don't know what to make of the narrator, they've made a clear and conscious point to try and establish that he may be lying by having him interject himself at the end of the story after the fact. They've also opened themselves up to other explanations of the narrator character (like possibly he's one of the brothers' subconsciouses). I worry about him detracting from the story on some level.

2) The lead character is probably going to sink of swim this show in the end (along with the circumstances of network TV). I think they've gone out of their way to present him as "the likeable bad guy" that we've all grown to love in Tony Soprano. There's a key difference though, I think we like Tony because he's inherently likeable. Donnellys has been shoving it in your face that this guy is a victim of circumstance. Another thing against the lead in the show is that I don't think the actor is all that great so far. I'm certainly willing to change my mind but I don't think he's the strongest actor so far. Gandolfini is a great actor. Dexter's lead (Michael C. Hall) is a great actor. Those guys in my mind play the likeable bad guy well and I'm not sure about this actor.

3) They are doing a good job laying ground work for conflict, but for there's definitely going to be a frustration factor among those who watched the first episode, which had a great moment of television....if people tune in 2-3 more times and don't get another great moment, then will they tune in the 4th.

4) Music is very good in my book. It won't save the show in and of itself, but it does add from what I've seen.

All in all, I will watch the next several but I expect to see this show cancelled given what Jon posted on the ratings trend, which is a bit of a shame.

[BrianD]

Last night did not grab me as much as the first one...I did actually put time aside to watch it and I knew when it would be on. In fact I'm probably the only person in the universe who watched Heroes for the first time because of the Black Donnellys.

That being said, I think there are a couple of interesting things about the show:

1) I don't know what to make of the narrator, they've made a clear and conscious point to try and establish that he may be lying by having him interject himself at the end of the story after the fact. They've also opened themselves up to other explanations of the narrator character (like possibly he's one of the brothers' subconsciouses). I worry about him detracting from the story on some level.

2) The lead character is probably going to sink of swim this show in the end (along with the circumstances of network TV). I think they've gone out of their way to present him as "the likeable bad guy" that we've all grown to love in Tony Soprano. There's a key difference though, I think we like Tony because he's inherently likeable. Donnellys has been shoving it in your face that this guy is a victim of circumstance. Another thing against the lead in the show is that I don't think the actor is all that great so far. I'm certainly willing to change my mind but I don't think he's the strongest actor so far. Gandolfini is a great actor. Dexter's lead (Michael C. Hall) is a great actor. Those guys in my mind play the likeable bad guy well and I'm not sure about this actor.

3) They are doing a good job laying ground work for conflict, but for there's definitely going to be a frustration factor among those who watched the first episode, which had a great moment of television....if people tune in 2-3 more times and don't get another great moment, then will they tune in the 4th.

4) Music is very good in my book. It won't save the show in and of itself, but it does add from what I've seen.

All in all, I will watch the next several but I expect to see this show cancelled given what Jon posted on the ratings trend, which is a bit of a shame.

I think you gave a pretty good synopsis of my feelings about the show. The main character does have a bit of a Toby McGuire quality, but he isn't quite as likeable. He is also being forced to be pretty hard because all of his brothers are idiots who are probably lucky to be alive at this point.

Being the likeable bad guy doesn't work unless there is some obvious on-screen conflict. There hasn't really been any so far. I'm hoping that is because the show is still young and needs to be set up properly first. The main character has shown his dark side, but he needs to show the light as well.

This show reminds me a bit of Smith where the bad guys were so bad (at least in the first episode) that I didn't have any interest in what happened to them.

[Izulde]

I honestly thought the second episode was better than the first.

Yes, the acting was still pretty bad in most cases and the storylines pretty formulaic, but it seemed to be a touch better overall.

I agree that the music is excellently done and I'll probably continue to give this series a chance to see if it improves.

On one level, I like the narrator. He's got a likeable voice and tone for telling the story, but on the other hand the frequent interjections of physically placing himself in the story were really annoying.

In fact, the more I'm thinking about it, the more his being there is hurting the credibility and suspension of disbelief about the whole story. Unreliable narrators can work in books and films, possibly in serial shows, but it's a lot harder to pull off in the latter case.

[adubroff]

I cruised a few Black Donnelly's blogs to see if they had any insight on Joey Ice Cream. The one interesting theory (in line with him lying) is that he's not necessarily randomly writing himself in to the story as much as he's writing himself out of the story...i.e., he's done a lot more than what he's shown to have done, and maybe he's covering for his participation in the acts depicted, or something along those lines.

For those who like the show, there's a web only episode, most likely NSFW, I'll hxxp...

hxxp://www.nbc.com/Video/rewind/full_episodes/blackdonnellys.shtml?show=donnellys03

This is decent and worth a watch....I am not sure how the show is going to hold up for people who only watch what's televised.

[wade moore]

I'm really enjoying this show. But, I'm soccer for all of the irish themed movies, etc... so I'm probably a lot more forgiving of flaws in the show..

Unfortunately, as JiMG is posting, it doesn't seem to be doing well... curious that they can't seem to find anything that can capitilize on the success of Heroes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think Black Donnellys may be in line for a sniper's bullet. But if it happens, I'll try to remember not to tell anybody.

[Lathum]

I think Black Donnellys may be in line for a sniper's bullet. But if it happens, I'll try to remember not to tell anybody.

I have no idea what this means

[JonInMiddleGA]

I have no idea what this means

Check the thread with the argument about whether a comic book character
(allegedly) being shot (allegedly) to death with an (alleged) sniper's bullet for details.

WARNING: if you have no life whatsofuckingever & never visit any site other than FOFC then the thread could contain shocking (alleged) spoilers.

[wade moore]

Check the thread with the argument about whether a comic book character
(allegedly) being shot (allegedly) to death with an (alleged) sniper's bullet for details.

WARNING: if you have no life whatsofuckingever & never visit any site other than FOFC then the thread could contain shocking (alleged) spoilers.

For the record, I don't have a problem with spoilers in the thread - it's the thread title.

Carry-on.

[adubroff]

Unfortunately, as JiMG is posting, it doesn't seem to be doing well... curious that they can't seem to find anything that can capitilize on the success of Heroes.

Yeah...I wonder if it's a natural carryover. So far NBC has tried shows in that slot which are not a lot like Heroes and they've failed so maybe it's the type of show they are trying to carry over from. I'm not sure what the ideal show to throw behind Heroes is (or what the ideal slot to put Donnelys in would be), but they don't seem a great match.

[Celeval]

I've been back and forth about the quality, but I'll be watching (for semi-obvious reasons to some people) as long as it's on.

[wade moore]

Yeah...I wonder if it's a natural carryover. So far NBC has tried shows in that slot which are not a lot like Heroes and they've failed so maybe it's the type of show they are trying to carry over from. I'm not sure what the ideal show to throw behind Heroes is (or what the ideal slot to put Donnelys in would be), but they don't seem a great match.

JiMG could probably speak to the demographic better, but Donnelly's and Studio 60 definitely seem to cater to a significantly older audience than I would imagine Heroes does.

I've been back and forth about the quality, but I'll be watching (for semi-obvious reasons to some people) as long as it's on.

Similar to mine?

[Celeval]

I've been back and forth about the quality, but I'll be watching (for semi-obvious reasons to some people) as long as it's on.

Similar to mine?

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Not so much, no. :-)

[JonInMiddleGA]

JiMG could probably speak to the demographic better, but Donnelly's and Studio 60 definitely seem to cater to a significantly older audience than I would imagine Heroes does.

I haven't watched Donnelly's, so I can't really say for sure, but I'm under the impression that it's not so much of a match but it's closer than anything else they're willing to throw up against CSI:Miami.

And it hadn't really hit me until just now, but I think I may have figured out (just a hunch, no data to back it up) where the Heroes audience is going:
Cable

The 2nd hour of WWE Raw on USA has been kicking ass of late & could very well be getting some of the males from Heroes right now while MTV's "The Hills" is taking the females (4th most watched cable show 18-34 last week).

[adubroff]

Tonight's episode was very good I thought. I thought there was real drama in there and it held me. I don't know if the show will do well, but I do know it's one of the better shows I've watched in a while.

[Easy Mac]

The lead just really takes me out of the show.

[Izulde]

I got bored halfway through the show and quit watching it. The acting is horrendous, the characters and situations are increasingly pathetic and cliche and it's just awful, awful dreary.

[Poli]

Did I miss another friggin episode? I didn't see it on the tv listing. At least it'll be online.

[Pyser]

i really enjoy this show.

[BrianD]

I think I'm about to remove this one from the season pass. The Donnelly brothers are just too stupid to have lived even this long in that neighborhood. The seem to have no redeeming qualities. The Tommy character gives up his potential life to take care of his brothers, but he doesn't really seem to have sacrificed anything. He is a thug in a thuggish neighborhood, and I haven't found a reason to like him or care what happens to him. This show is decent for plot, but terrible for characters and character development.

[adubroff]

I think I'm about to remove this one from the season pass. The Donnelly brothers are just too stupid to have lived even this long in that neighborhood. The seem to have no redeeming qualities. The Tommy character gives up his potential life to take care of his brothers, but he doesn't really seem to have sacrificed anything. He is a thug in a thuggish neighborhood, and I haven't found a reason to like him or care what happens to him. This show is decent for plot, but terrible for characters and character development.


Do you have a ceremony when this happens? Retire it's TV Guide listing?

[JonInMiddleGA]

At the current rate of decline, the show will find itself behind the otherwise woeful What About Brian in another couple of weeks.

http://www.medialifemagazine.com/artman/publish/article_10753.asp
Elsewhere last night, the third episode of NBC’s “The Black Donnellys” fell, though that’s not a huge surprise. The network’s top-rated show, “Heroes,” gave “Donnellys” a 6.6 lead-in last week.

Last night, with an extended “Deal or No Deal” averaging a 5.1 at 9 p.m., “Donnellys” dipped 13 percent from last week’s 3.0 to a 2.6.

[BrianD]

At the current rate of decline, the show will find itself behind the otherwise woeful What About Brian in another couple of weeks.

http://www.medialifemagazine.com/artman/publish/article_10753.asp
Elsewhere last night, the third episode of NBC’s “The Black Donnellys” fell, though that’s not a huge surprise. The network’s top-rated show, “Heroes,” gave “Donnellys” a 6.6 lead-in last week.

Last night, with an extended “Deal or No Deal” averaging a 5.1 at 9 p.m., “Donnellys” dipped 13 percent from last week’s 3.0 to a 2.6.

Do you have access to any statistics which discuss common factors among shows and relates then to success rates? Clearly police procedurals and hospital shows generally seem to do well, but I'm curious about plot-centric shows and character-centric shows...and possibly greater breakdowns.

The reason I ask is thinking about The Black Donnelleys and shows like Smith. They seem very intense and feature characters that aren't very likeable. I would think this would be easily viewed as a bad idea.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Do you have access to any statistics which discuss common factors among shows and relates then to success rates? Clearly police procedurals and hospital shows generally seem to do well, but I'm curious about plot-centric shows and character-centric shows...and possibly greater breakdowns.

Nothing comes to mind off-hand, probably because what works/doesn't is such a fickle thing that by the time it was studied in detail, the information would be obsolete.

They seem very intense and feature characters that aren't very likeable. I would think this would be easily viewed as a bad idea.

Possibly ... right up until you realize that you also just described The Sopranos & see how that has turned out. For that matter, House might come close to that mark too, as could Monk.

[JeeberD]

I hope the show makes it...the wife and I are both enjoying it.

[wade moore]

Possibly ... right up until you realize that you also just described The Sopranos & see how that has turned out. For that matter, House might come close to that mark too, as could Monk.

This is a good thing to quote to make a point I've been thinking about.

I really enjoy the show...

However, for ratings.. I have to wonder how much this is hurt because it's not the Soprano's? THey have a lot of limitations (even though they attempt to stretch them a bit) that the Soprano's doesn't have. There's no way this show could possibly live up to some of the "realism" Soprano's offers.

I have to wonder if this show might do at least a bit better if the Soprano's never existed.

[adubroff]

However, for ratings.. I have to wonder how much this is hurt because it's not the Soprano's? THey have a lot of limitations (even though they attempt to stretch them a bit) that the Soprano's doesn't have. There's no way this show could possibly live up to some of the "realism" Soprano's offers.


From a personal standpoint I don't miss the nudity/cursing much. And I think the violence is pretty graphic. I'm also in my 30s so maybe I am getting old.

[wade moore]

From a personal standpoint I don't miss the nudity/cursing much. And I think the violence is pretty graphic. I'm also in my 30s so maybe I am getting old.

I'm with you for the most part - but for the general populace...

[adubroff]

I'm with you for the most part - but for the general populace...


It's possible....I've seen reviews which have said they thought the show would be better on a cable outlet. I couldn't disagree with that. I can't think of any thing it would lose by going over to cable. I do get the sense they spent fairly heavily on this show (except on cast most likely), so I don't know if they'd try transitioning it.

[BrianD]

Possibly ... right up until you realize that you also just described The Sopranos & see how that has turned out. For that matter, House might come close to that mark too, as could Monk.

Maybe. Tony Soprano was fairly likeable in the first season. He was clearly a flawed man who didn't necessarily like being the boss but had to be. In later seasons he lost much of the likeability, but at least he was established as a mobster with a bit of a heart. Or at the very least he was conflicted so it was interesting to see what he went through.

House did not start as a likeable character, but the rest of the cast was smart and likeable. House was also funny as well as an ass.

Monk was odd, but I wouldn't see a reason for him not to be likeable.

With The Black Donnellys, there is nobody I can really care about. We are told that Tommy is smart and good, but about all we see is him being a tough guy. His brothers are so dumb that we want to see them get killed. Either Tommy needed to be shown to be a good person, or the brothers needed to be shown as worth saving.

[adubroff]

Maybe. Tony Soprano was fairly likeable in the first season. He was clearly a flawed man who didn't necessarily like being the boss but had to be. In later seasons he lost much of the likeability, but at least he was established as a mobster with a bit of a heart. Or at the very least he was conflicted so it was interesting to see what he went through.

House did not start as a likeable character, but the rest of the cast was smart and likeable. House was also funny as well as an ass.

Monk was odd, but I wouldn't see a reason for him not to be likeable.

With The Black Donnellys, there is nobody I can really care about. We are told that Tommy is smart and good, but about all we see is him being a tough guy. His brothers are so dumb that we want to see them get killed. Either Tommy needed to be shown to be a good person, or the brothers needed to be shown as worth saving.


I think ultimately this will be the show's undoing if there is one. I don't think it's the likeability of the character though, I think it's the likeability of the actor. I think Gandolfini is inherently likeable. I think if they'd shown 100 people a picture of him before Sopranos ever aired (when he was a relative unknown), 80 of them would have smiled. I think Hugh Lawrie would have the same kind of numbers.

I think they've actually shown the lead character doing some fairly likeable things:

a) being loyal to family
b) trying to cheer up the kid of the Hughie character
c) demonstrating loyalty/love for Jenny

But ultimately, a lot of people still don't like him, and I personally blame the actor, not the writer.

[BrianD]

I think they've actually shown the lead character doing some fairly likeable things:

a) being loyal to family

I could see this more if his family wasn't a complete waste of space.

b) trying to cheer up the kid of the Hughie character

This is probably what they were going for in the show, but it seemed like his words were equally meant to screw with Hughie's brother.

c) demonstrating loyalty/love for Jenny

I can probably give you this one. He has put her in some fairly crappy positions, but he does see to care.

But ultimately, a lot of people still don't like him, and I personally blame the actor, not the writer.

You are probably right here. It is odd though since the actor shares a look similar to Tobey Maguire. He seems like he should be more likeable, but he just isn't.

I must say I am disappointed in this show. From the previews, this looked like something I would really like. Just didn't happen.

[adubroff]

I could see this more if his family wasn't a complete waste of space.



Just for arguement's sake, the mother is likeable and not a complete waste of space from what I can tell. It looks like the next episode focuses on her a bit more. Of course, knowing this show, they'll make us hate her.

[Izulde]

You are probably right here. It is odd though since the actor shares a look similar to Tobey Maguire. He seems like he should be more likeable, but he just isn't.


I noticed the Tobey Maguire angle too and it got me to thinking about what would happen if Tobey were in the role.

While there's no guarantee that the show would retain viewers, it would at least improve the product offering, because the potential was there to create a lead character that could counteract the fact that his brothers are stupid as hell, a series of situations and involvements that we might've gotten interested in.

A character that we would've been able to empathize with as the one who has to do everything because no one else can do it properly.

Tobey might've been able to pull that off. He has a knack for playing characters in tough situations that we can like, whether it's the jockey in Seabiscuit or the ultimate acting job, Spiderman.

But perhaps he might not have. There's some serious flaws with the story and writing itself:

1. The narrator is, ultimately, a distraction that prevents us from getting emotionally invested in the character. Had this been a first person narrative series (which would have been interesting) or a narratorless series, I think it would have turned out better. The immersion is hard enough without the suddenly there narrator.

2. Tommy is supposedly this brilliant kid with a promising future, but we're never given an inkling of that. So he can draw well. Big flipping deal. There's no indication he's pursued it on a serious level (from what I can remember), nor is there anything other than the narrator's say-so to really justify the praise. Instead, we see him running a bar and getting his brothers out of trouble.

3. Perhaps the single biggest flaw is that after Tommy shoots the guys at the end of the first episode, he doesn't seem to have too much of an internal struggle with who he's been forced to become. He's real good at yelling at other people, but there isn't that sense of vulnerability or interior conflict that's vital in a series like this, with this character as its main focus.

4. For that matter, there's no real sense of an overarching conflict. Yes, people have their petty squabbles, they talk tough, and kill each other, but it doesn't seem to have any purpose and it doesn't help matters that the guys more or less replacing the two dead mob bosses have very wooden acting and some pretty bland dialogue. Their villany is non-existant and so viewers (or at least me) just shrug their shoulders and change the channel.

Those are just the four big ones. I blame the writers and the actors equally for flubbing a series that initially had promise.

[wade moore]

I'll try to post more later, but I completely disagree with basically every point you make Izulde ;).

I feel like you and some others aren't "getting" it... could it be that you don't understand the Irish sub-culture that exists, particularly in that area of the country?

[Izulde]

I'll try to post more later, but I completely disagree with basically every point you make Izulde ;).

I feel like you and some others aren't "getting" it... could it be that you don't understand the Irish sub-culture that exists, particularly in that area of the country?

To be fair, someone else also pointed out to me the authenticity of the show from a cultural perspective and while I've no reason to doubt either you or her that that's true, ultimately it turns into an Amy Tan novel. Hilarious and spot-on to those who have awareness of the culture, but ultimately tedious and bland to those not intimately familiar with it. (And in all honesty, most Chinese/Chinese-Americans I know, particularly women, hate Amy Tan's writing, but cite her as being authentic in her portrayal of the Chinese subculture).

[wade moore]

To be fair, someone else also pointed out to me the authenticity of the show from a cultural perspective and while I've no reason to doubt either you or her that that's true, ultimately it turns into an Amy Tan novel. Hilarious and spot-on to those who have awareness of the culture, but ultimately tedious and bland to those not intimately familiar with it. (And in all honesty, most Chinese/Chinese-Americans I know, particularly women, hate Amy Tan's writing, but cite her as being authentic in her portrayal of the Chinese subculture).

Can't argue with that at all - but it tends to make me not say that the writing or acting is off so much as it just doesn't resonate with enough people.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I watched for 5 minutes last time, didn't see any black people, and turned it off. The show's title completely misled me.

[BrianD]

Just for arguement's sake, the mother is likeable and not a complete waste of space from what I can tell. It looks like the next episode focuses on her a bit more. Of course, knowing this show, they'll make us hate her.

I'd actually disagree with this. She seemed to be ok with her own children and with Tommy's love, but she was horrible to the girlfriend of the brother in the hospital. This could just be a "she's not Irish" issue, but it immediately turned me off of her character.

[wade moore]

I'd actually disagree with this. She seemed to be ok with her own children and with Tommy's love, but she was horrible to the girlfriend of the brother in the hospital. This could just be a "she's not Irish" issue, but it immediately turned me off of her character.

I think it's more a "she's not from the neighberhood" even, but the "she's not Irish" too..

Again, I think this is all realistic... doesn't mean it makes a good TV Show, but...

[BrianD]

Can't argue with that at all - but it tends to make me not say that the writing or acting is off so much as it just doesn't resonate with enough people.

I agree with all of Izulde's points, but I can see where you are coming from as well. The show may be accurate to the area they are trying to portray, but I don't think most people want stark reality without a bit of lightness or entertainment mixed in.

[adubroff]

3. Perhaps the single biggest flaw is that after Tommy shoots the guys at the end of the first episode, he doesn't seem to have too much of an internal struggle with who he's been forced to become. He's real good at yelling at other people, but there isn't that sense of vulnerability or interior conflict that's vital in a series like this, with this character as its main focus.



I don't disagree with most of your list. The narrator, I go back and forth on, and I'm certainly not high on the acting, as I've mentioned.

This particular point though I believe is actually a strength of the show. I think the point of the show, if there is one, is that good people in bad surroundings with the right circumstances can become bad people, or at least do bad things.

[BrianD]

This particular point though I believe is actually a strength of the show. I think the point of the show, if there is one, is that good people in bad surroundings with the right circumstances can become bad people, or at least do bad things.

This is what the show is trying to portray, but I think they forgot to properly set up the fact that Tommy is a good person. They told us that he was good through the narrator, but we never got to see it so we have no reason to believe it. He also hasn't shown enough internal conflict after the fact.

I don't know if the writers just decided to take a shortcut and hope we would buy his goodness, or if they didn't have enough time in just 1 hour to show his goodness and his turn. They might have been better served with a 2-hour show at the start, or maybe not have such a big event in the first show. Tommy went from ambiguous to way bad in 1 hour.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The rundown of everything in primetime last night is here (mostly about the premiere of Dancing w/ Stars
http://www.medialifemagazine.com/artman/publish/article_10908.asp

But to summarize ... Donnellys fell another 8% last night, down to a 2.4 rating, losing nearly half (4.6) of the Deal audience. And the new low-water mark means they've now posted a rating even worse than the series low of Studio 60.

Barring a remarkable recovery, I have to think that this show is
http://www.backedupsomewhere.com/junk/old/toast/toast.jpg

[wade moore]

I haven't watched last night's episode yet, but when I saw JiMG was the last post i figured it was ratings info - and probably along these lines.

Unfortunate. This was a show that was right up my alley, unfortunately (or fortunately?) I guess me and mainstream America do not agree.

It's still interesting to me that they have not been able to capitalize on the instant success of Heroes. I imagine, as I think has been posted before, that there could be some audience carry-over issues - but come on...

[gottimd]

The show is burnt bread?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I imagine, as I think has been posted before, that there could be some audience carry-over issues - but come on...

Last night's lead-in was actually Deal or No Deal, but IIRC, it actually held about as much (or more?) of the Heroes lead-in than it did of Deal.

And I might be wrong, but I'm having a tough time thinking Heroes and Deal have the same audience. At some point, I think there's a reasonable question whether this show can hold any significant sized lead-in.

And what really damns Donnelys, IMO, is that it's numbers have been trending downward during the show (cited in previous weeks, not mentioned in the latest article). That means people are not just leaving before it starts, they're leaving while they're watching -- they aren't able to hold people who are willing to give it a try.

[wade moore]

Last night's lead-in was actually Deal or No Deal, but IIRC, it actually held about as much (or more?) of the Heroes lead-in than it did of Deal.

And I might be wrong, but I'm having a tough time thinking Heroes and Deal have the same audience. At some point, I think there's a reasonable question whether this show can hold any significant sized lead-in.

And what really damns Donnelys, IMO, is that it's numbers have been trending downward during the show (cited in previous weeks, not mentioned in the latest article). That means people are not just leaving before it starts, they're leaving while they're watching -- they aren't able to hold people who are willing to give it a try.

Agreed, but wasn't all/most of the above true for Studio 60 too? That's more my point. It could very easily be that the show just isn't good (Donnelys) despite my liking of it, but the fact that two relatively heavily hyped and promoted shows have failed miserable with such good lead-ins in that time slot.

[BrianD]

Agreed, but wasn't all/most of the above true for Studio 60 too? That's more my point. It could very easily be that the show just isn't good (Donnelys) despite my liking of it, but the fact that two relatively heavily hyped and promoted shows have failed miserable with such good lead-ins in that time slot.

I don't know that I would expect Donnellys or Studio 60 to do very well in a different time slot either. I've already explained why I haven't been able to get in to the Donnellys. Studio 60 (which I very much like) has shown signs of brilliance and signs of great suckitude. I think both shows could become very great but they both need more work than an American audience will give it.

Too bad since the biggest problem with this situation is that it gives network executives more of an excuse to not even try with scripted shows and go with the lower risk reality shows.

[wade moore]

I don't know that I would expect Donnellys or Studio 60 to do very well in a different time slot either. I've already explained why I haven't been able to get in to the Donnellys. Studio 60 (which I very much like) has shown signs of brilliance and signs of great suckitude. I think both shows could become very great but they both need more work than an American audience will give it.

Too bad since the biggest problem with this situation is that it gives network executives more of an excuse to not even try with scripted shows and go with the lower risk reality shows.

Apparently I'm not explaining my point very well ;)...

I'm not saying anything in-particular about Donnely's or Studio 60 (both shows I liked), but about Heroes and what follow's it. The idea that Heroes (and I guess DND also) can be successful and they can't find a show to keep that success is interesting to me - that's all. Nothing about whether these shows succeed/don't succeed elsewhere, but more an interesting fact that they cannot capitalize on Heroes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Apparently I'm not explaining my point very well ;)...

Explained well or not, it was sailing pretty far over my head ;)

... but more an interesting fact that they cannot capitalize on Heroes.

I think one of the primary reasons they've had problems with that so far is that they weren't prepared for Heroes to be a hit. I don't think anybody anticipated the success it had (quite a few were predicting it would be among the first shows cancelled IIRC) and then it's compounding the problem that several shows have underachieved no matter what sort of lead-in they had.

That's combined to leave the network, IMO, in the position of trying to play catch-up with their own success. It's pretty clear that they didn't have an obvious companion piece for Heroes ready & waiting and they've been left with some mismatches because of it.

But I bet they've got a large pile of shows submitted for consideration that are trying to approximate the vibe ;) And I'd also strongly consider a bet that none of them will succeed either. I think Heroes may be a case of catching lightning in a bottle, and the inevitable imitations will be deemed too pale.

[wade moore]

Explained well or not, it was sailing pretty far over my head ;)



I think one of the primary reasons they've had problems with that so far is that they weren't prepared for Heroes to be a hit. I don't think anybody anticipated the success it had (quite a few were predicting it would be among the first shows cancelled IIRC) and then it's compounding the problem that several shows have underachieved no matter what sort of lead-in they had.

That's combined to leave the network, IMO, in the position of trying to play catch-up with their own success. It's pretty clear that they didn't have an obvious companion piece for Heroes ready & waiting and they've been left with some mismatches because of it.

But I bet they've got a large pile of shows submitted for consideration that are trying to approximate the vibe ;) And I'd also strongly consider a bet that none of them will succeed either. I think Heroes may be a case of catching lightning in a bottle, and the inevitable imitations will be deemed too pale.

All good points that I hadn't thought of. I do think Heroes is "Lightning in a Bottle" (and really, aren't most "hit" shows?) - but it seems like with the properly designed show you can at least get a show that is considered a nominal success following it.

[adubroff]

I think one of the primary reasons they've had problems with that so far is that they weren't prepared for Heroes to be a hit. I don't think anybody anticipated the success it had (quite a few were predicting it would be among the first shows cancelled IIRC) and then it's compounding the problem that several shows have underachieved no matter what sort of lead-in they had.

That's combined to leave the network, IMO, in the position of trying to play catch-up with their own success. It's pretty clear that they didn't have an obvious companion piece for Heroes ready & waiting and they've been left with some mismatches because of it.



The one thing I wonder is whether or not Heroes is a good "leader". Some shows are so distinct that they build up a fanbase of people who just watch that show, and are going to flip off the tv (or more likely flip something on the billion channels that cable provides), because whatever comes after Heroes isn't going to be something they like. I wonder if they'd be smart to back it up to ten and have it lead into news. It scares me from a demographic perspective though because there are some heroes watchers who would be up past their bedtime. Another option might be moving Heroes somewhere where it would do suprisingly well and see if it can get people to watch on nights which aren't traditional TV nights (Friday/Sat). Usually Fri/Sat is a death sentence for a show, but with Heroes it might not be.

From a Donnelly's perspective, I wonder if it would have been better off with no lead in. It would have lowered expectations for the show. Most likely though, this is water under the bridge. I think it actually would have been a very good cable vehicle. Cable has traditionally been more patient and because of OnDemand, etc, people can watch whenever.

[wade moore]

Shameless grasp, but a Josh Whedon show would seem to fit perfectly here ;)...

[BrianD]

Shameless grasp, but a Josh Whedon show would seem to fit perfectly here ;)...

I think you are exactly right...and you've opened up a lot of old wounds at the same time.

[BrianD]

Wade, I get your point now and I do agree with it. The inability to hold on to the audience and follow with another hit show is interesting.


I think one of the primary reasons they've had problems with that so far is that they weren't prepared for Heroes to be a hit. I don't think anybody anticipated the success it had (quite a few were predicting it would be among the first shows cancelled IIRC) and then it's compounding the problem that several shows have underachieved no matter what sort of lead-in they had.

That's combined to leave the network, IMO, in the position of trying to play catch-up with their own success. It's pretty clear that they didn't have an obvious companion piece for Heroes ready & waiting and they've been left with some mismatches because of it.

But I bet they've got a large pile of shows submitted for consideration that are trying to approximate the vibe ;) And I'd also strongly consider a bet that none of them will succeed either. I think Heroes may be a case of catching lightning in a bottle, and the inevitable imitations will be deemed too pale.

What happened with the first season of Lost? Did it have a similar situation with shows that couldn't follow it very well? Some of the really good shows recently have seemed to be a bit different than the traditional models. I think that any network that tries to copy these shows will fall pretty flat. Do we dare say that the American public is actually rewarding networks for being original?

[WVUFAN]

That's combined to leave the network, IMO, in the position of trying to play catch-up with their own success. It's pretty clear that they didn't have an obvious companion piece for Heroes ready & waiting and they've been left with some mismatches because of it.


See, but NBC DOES have a show that would make a good companion piece to Heroes, and it's languishing on another network: Battlestar Galactica, on Sci-fi (owned by NBC).

[Barkeep49]

So I have now watched every episode of the show and I think there's a good reason that it can't hold onto viewers: while there's potential right now it's just not a very good show.

[JonInMiddleGA]

See, but NBC DOES have a show that would make a good companion piece to Heroes, and it's languishing on another network: Battlestar Galactica, on Sci-fi (owned by NBC).

Problem with that is that BSG has steadily declined in ratings since it debuted. If you projected it's current cable rating to an equivalent broadcast rating, it would be around 50% lower than what the already failed experiments with Donnelys and 60 have been.

Now, if you believe the numbers have fallen because the traditional SciFi (either network or genre) audience is rejecting the show but it would do better with a general market audience (I haven't watched it enough to know if that's a realistic possibility) then you might guesstimate that it could double the rating. Problem is that, at current levels, even doubled it would still fail to be better than where the two failures debuted.

At this point, if the downward trend continues, BSG would need some luck to avoid cancellation after the current season. I mean, they've fallen behind the ratings for Enterprise and the lamentable ECW (and just for comparison, have fallen to basically the same rating as TNA:Impact on Spike).

That doesn't strike me as a situation that is going to have anyone at NBC saying "hey, let's move this dying show to our flagship".

[JonInMiddleGA]

What happened with the first season of Lost? Did it have a similar situation with shows that couldn't follow it very well?

In a big way (although I had to look it up to remember the details).

Invasion premiered strong, but proceeded to lost about half it's audience (17 million down to 9 million) by the time it was eventually cancelled.

To put that in perspective a little more, it appears that when it bottomed out it was pulling about double the total viewers that 60 or Donnellys are pulling now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The one thing I wonder is whether or not Heroes is a good "leader". ...

Nicely done post, as you raise a number of good possibilities.

You even managed to give good reasons not to do certain things, like move Heroes to 10pm.

I think it actually would have been a very good cable vehicle. Cable has traditionally been more patient and because of OnDemand, etc, people can watch whenever.

Bears noting that cable is more patient because it can afford to be.
If Donnellys were pulling the same number of viewers on cable as it's pulling on broadcast right now, it would be battling with the WWE for bragging rights as the most watched show on cable every week, at worst it would be a regular in the top ten. Of course, it wouldn't retain that number but even if just half the current audience followed to cable, it would be in pretty good shape, probably (guesstimating a little) settling into the top 50 shows on cable & somewhere in the top 15-25 of all cable shows for adults.

Of course, the other side of that coin is the question of whether it would have ever been seen by that hypothetical "half", and assuming not, how many would have actually found it on their own? Judging from the small number of cases where shows are reborn on cable after being cancelled on broadcast, I have to figure the estimated percentages are quite low.

[Oilers9911]

Nicely done post, as you raise a number of good possibilities.

You even managed to give good reasons not to do certain things, like move Heroes to 10pm.

Bears noting that cable is more patient because it can afford to be.
If Donnellys were pulling the same number of viewers on cable as it's pulling on broadcast right now, it would be battling with the WWE for bragging rights as the most watched show on cable every week, at worst it would be a regular in the top ten. Of course, it wouldn't retain that number but even if just half the current audience followed to cable, it would be in pretty good shape, probably (guesstimating a little) settling into the top 50 shows on cable & somewhere in the top 15-25 of all cable shows for adults.

Of course, the other side of that coin is the question of whether it would have ever been seen by that hypothetical "half", and assuming not, how many would have actually found it on their own? Judging from the small number of cases where shows are reborn on cable after being cancelled on broadcast, I have to figure the estimated percentages are quite low.

Jon,

Do you have any idea why more shows that are cancelled on the "Big 4" networks are not picked up by cable networks? Is it simple logistics or is it money or what? There are many shows that I thought would have been successes if a cable network had picked them up. Titus, which was a Fox comedy was cancelled while it was still going strong and I always though i'd see it come back somewhere.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Do you have any idea why more shows that are cancelled on the "Big 4" networks are not picked up by cable networks?

I'm sure there are some cases where there might be contractual issues or something, but AFAIK, it's mostly a matter of not believing that a show that has failed once (regardless of the reason/circumstances/whatever) can be more profitable for them than what they already have and/or are planning to develop.

The cost of production for a network show is typically quite a bit higher than the average original cable fare, so I'm pretty sure that plays a role too. And I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that some possibilities have been sunk by egos that didn't want to admit to taking another networks rejects.

[adubroff]

Nicely done post, as you raise a number of good possibilities.

You even managed to give good reasons not to do certain things, like move Heroes to 10pm.


Interesting tidbit I read, in regards to Heroes and it's viewership. I had been under the impression that Heroes was getting a huge audience with a certain group (namely young). The tidbit intimated that Heroes actually has a real broad audience. That I think makes leading a second show pretty tricky. You can't pick a show that won't hit on all cylinders, so to speak. You need a show which can reach a broad spectrum and connect. Donnellys I don't believe would be that sort of show. If Donnelly's was going to connect (which it doesn't seem to be doing), it would connect with young people and probably people from the northeast, primarily.

If I had to guess, we're probably two or three weeks from NBC trying Donnellys in another spot and seeing if it atleast holds what it's done in the post Heroes slot. I would not expect it to do so.

[Oilers9911]

I'm sure there are some cases where there might be contractual issues or something, but AFAIK, it's mostly a matter of not believing that a show that has failed once (regardless of the reason/circumstances/whatever) can be more profitable for them than what they already have and/or are planning to develop.

The cost of production for a network show is typically quite a bit higher than the average original cable fare, so I'm pretty sure that plays a role too. And I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that some possibilities have been sunk by egos that didn't want to admit to taking another networks rejects.

Yeah, all your points are quite good. I thought about the money aspect but never really thought of the ego aspect of it.

[TazFTW]

At this point, if the downward trend continues, BSG would need some luck to avoid cancellation after the current season. I mean, they've fallen behind the ratings for Enterprise and the lamentable ECW (and just for comparison, have fallen to basically the same rating as TNA:Impact on Spike).

A few days ago, SciFi announced that they are ordering a 22 episode fourth season of BSG. This is an increase from a 13 episode announcement they made in February.

The duh companion for Heroes would be a show called Villains. "Kill the cheerleader. Take over the world."

[JonInMiddleGA]

A few days ago, SciFi announced that they are ordering a 22 episode fourth season of BSG. This is an increase from a 13 episode announcement they made in February.

Thanks Taz, I hadn't seen that one I guess. Color me surprised.
And then cue back to my remarks about standards for cable & broadcast success being so different I guess.

[adubroff]

For those of you still into this show, who were probably watching the tournament, it was a very good episode tonight. Worth watching if you tivo'ed it and worth watching online if you didn't.

[Thomkal]

Just heard on the radio that this show has been cancelled. So sorry BD fans, its gone.

[adubroff]

Just heard on the radio that this show has been cancelled. So sorry BD fans, its gone.


Ow...for a reality show based on Wedding Crashers.

[JeeberD]

Read this on another board...

and the black donnellys is holding on by a thread... NBC took it off the air "indefinitely" and is streaming new episodes on nbc.com and selling them on ITunes

So (for now) you can still get your Donnelly's fix on the net, wade.

[Poli]

Still watching on the net, and hoping it comes back on.

Still, I can't help but wonder how long Ice Cream can tell this story, even if it were picked back up.

[wade moore]

Read this on another board...



So (for now) you can still get your Donnelly's fix on the net, wade.

Missed this until AE's bump... good to know, I'll check it out there!

[Poli]

Not sure who's still watching, but apparently the final episode is Monday.

This week's was awesome. Let's just say I uttered, "Oh you got to kill that mother f'er" at one point.

[Celeval]

I'll have to go back and watch them - didn't realize they were available online.

[Oilers9911]

I have been watching online as well...the show is really starting to hit its stride and of course it's gone. A question for anyone who is watching.

Jenny Riley or Hughie Farrell's Widow?

[Poli]

I'll take the grieving widow.

[JeeberD]

I haven't watched the on-line episodes, but from what aired...Jenny. The widow kinda freaked me out for some reason...

[primelord]

For those that were interested in this show:


On May 14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_14), 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007), the series was officially canceled by NBC.<sup id="_ref-3" class="reference">[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Donnellys#_note-3)</sup>
HDNet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDNet) will show the aired episodes and the unaired episodes of the Donnelly's starting Wednesday June 13th at 8pm. It will then repeat at 11pm. Then will reair on Thursdays at 2am. It is rumored that there are plans being discussed for a second season with Paul Haggis and Robert Moresco in mid-summer.