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QuikSand
03-04-2007, 08:20 PM
A More Robust Vision for Staff in FOF

Two FOF versions deep into the staff and coach hiring system we have, I thought it might be worth it to speculate about what improvements might make sense for this aspect of the game if and when there might be a future version.

My thinking here started with the notion that the current system can be improved, without being eliminated. I’m sure there are plenty of things that one might do from scratch – I’m mostly trying to tinker with the basic building blocks that we already have in place in Front Office Football 2007 and its immediate predecessor.

I also, after giving it a little thought, have decided not to include any sort of wholesale re-invention of the game’s financial system as part of this. I suppose that a more robust financial system might make the ability to bid for and secure highly paid coaches a challenge in itself, as a sort of offset against other spending opportunities – but I’ll leave that bigger picture argument for another day. Or maybe later in this discussion, if this gets going.

I will also volunteer that what I am proposing would make the coaching staff substantially more complex than it is now, so perhaps a toggle for the “expanded coaching staff” would be appropriate. Otherwise, some other shortcut, like auto-hiring of lesser staffers, would seem sensible.


In essence, I would propose that four changes be made to the coach/staff hiring system.

#1 – Expand the coaching staff roles to include several more coaches

#2 – Clarify roles of coaches to better match familiar NFL roles

#3 – Include an “unknown” label for many ratings for many potential coaches

#4 – Create expanded pool of new coach prospects all from ranks of former players


Anecdotally, here’s what I would like to see for a league where I’d want to take this seriously. I’ll use the IHOF multiplayer league as an example.

Fullback (and sometimes tight end) Man Rhea served faithfully with my Chesapeake Chitterlings for many years before being crushed by injuries and retiring. The following season, at age 33, he appears in the pool of possible coaches for the league, with ratings (using the familiar system) that look like this:


Man Rhea
Age 33

Quarterbacks: unknown
Running Backs: good
Receivers: fair
Offensive Linemen: unknown
Kickers/Punters: unknown
Defensive Linemen: unknown
Linebackers: unknown
Secondary: unknown
Young Talent: unknown
Motivation: good
Discipline: unknown
Off Playcalling: unknown
Def Playcalling: unknown
Injury Avoidance: unknown


This would be pretty standard for a young coach right out of the player ranks – mostly he’s an unknown for his actual coaching skills, but he can probably be expected to have some recognizable ability in the area where he used to play himself, perhaps along with a related or opposing position group (a former WR might know QBs, or DBs). Among the more generic coaching skills, one or two might be visible, but most would be unknown. The more off-field skills like intelligence the player showed in playing days, the better bet he would make to show up in the coaching pool with some reasonable skills.

Actually, I think I’d even like for him to first approach the team he is leaving, and inquire about a coaching position – a sort of a “first shot” at him for his years of service on the team. If we pass, then he’d drop into the pool of coach applicants for anyone to try to hire.

Anyway – so my team hires him, and we make him our Running Backs coach. Let’s say he stay in that role for us for five seasons, and over that time, we see more and more of his skills revealed, as well as watch him developing into a more mature coaching prospect. After those five years, maybe here’s what he would look like:


Man Rhea
Age 38

Quarterbacks: good
Running Backs: excellent
Receivers: very good
Offensive Linemen: fair
Kickers/Punters: unknown
Defensive Linemen: unknown
Linebackers: good
Secondary: good
Young Talent: very good
Motivation: very good
Discipline: excellent
Off Playcalling: very good
Def Playcalling: unknown
Injury Avoidance: good


So, after several years with the team’s coaching staff, we are getting a pretty decent sense of what sort of coach he already is. Still a few holes in his resume, but by and large we have a decent idea where he is.

So, over these years, what did we get from him as our RB Coach? In my revised system, position coaches would:

-help refine the scout impressions for players on our team in his position group

-play a primary role in development of players at their position

-add some minor adjustment to the effectiveness of players at their position

So, Man Rhea, who has developed into an “excellent” backs coach, would have become a pretty useful asset to my team by this point. I think the development of coaches ought to be pretty variable, but after a handful of seasons, one ought to have a pretty good idea where guys are going in their roles. This guy works out, but maybe 3 out of 5 guys I hired that year as position coaches would have been replaced by now for lack of improvement or results.

My vision would be that this player would be locked into this job with my team for as long as I wanted him to stay, or until he got a promotion offer from another team. If another team were looking at the pool of possible offensive coordinators, they would see Rhea in the universe of possibles (that list might be best were it searchable screen-able by certain attributes) and if someone thought he looked worthy, they could make him an offer. (Maybe he would only appear to other teams this way after he had served a certain number of years, or had achieved a certain level of coaching attributes—I’m open to having most of these guys just fly under the radar until they receive a certain level of attention league-wide) I think in a ML universe, your staff hiring would need to have only a limited number of stages that include potential “poaching” of this sort, followed by stages for refilling that would only include acquiring unemployed staff. (I believe opening eight or ten coaching positions to wide-open bidding every year could get just too tedious, so a lot of “status quo” ought to prevail in these roles, I’d think)

Anyway, over time, Rhea might develop the skills to become an OC or even a head Coach for my team or for someone else’s. Thus would be the career arc for coaching prospects in the league – lots of guys would get at least an initial shot at a positional coaching job, some would continue to develop more and better skills, and eventually become candidates for higher positions – the roles subject to financial bidding in an open market.

Personally, I don’t think the game gains anything by having random names drawn from a list as new coach prospects, so I’d be in favor of departing from reality a good deal here, and just making all the new coaches come from the ranks of former players. In leagues with a rich enough history and close attention being paid this would be an asset – in leagues where staff details aren’t that important, it would be a non-factor. I’ll sacrifice realism for immersion and intrigue here.


As far as coach and staff roles, here’s how I would assign the affects of each coaching position, more or less:


POS COACH COORDINATOR HEAD COACH SCOUT
Off-team scouting: total
On-team evaluation: secondary primary
On-Field Play: minor minor minor
Player Development: primary secondary
Motivation: total
Discipline: secondary primary
Off Playcalling: primary secondary
Def Playcalling: primary secondary
Injury Avoidance: total


With scouting, my thinking would be that once a player is on the team, goes through training camp, and is art of your team – you ought to have a better sense of what he is capable of doing. I don’t truly see that as a “scouting” function, but rather a function of player assessment. Right now, your scout’s view of a player is altered a bit once he joins your team – I’d like to see that adjustment be a function, at least partially, of the position coach who is working most closely with the player.

For player development, I think the contributions from a given staffer would be related to a combination of his skill with that position, and his skill with young player generally. The appropriate coordinator still would play a role in developing the whole side of the team, but that role falls first and foremost onto the position coach closest to the players.

By “on-field play,” I think the game would basically benefit from having some quiet modifiers in place for players who are essentially being well coached. I wouldn’t suggest that a player with a red bar of 80 right now actually be visibly viewed as something else, but rather that the collective efforts of good coaches to get the player ready to play his position, to recognize blocking schemes, to read coverages, and to otherwise discharge the responsibilities of his position ought to be factored into the game a bit. Whether that collectively turns an 80-rated player into a 78-82 guy, or a 75-85 guy I don’t know – but I’d like to think that good coaching gives players a better chance to succeed, and having that a global (but still pretty minor) effect from all the coaches makes sense to me.

As for playcalling – I don’t claim to know how it works in FOF now, nor do I really know how to implement it in any future version. I will claim ignorance there, to some degree.

What would make sense to me would be for coordinators to develop a certain repertoire over time – maybe like a QB and his formation knowledge. Maybe it would make sense for any coach to have a “preferred” system that he would like to use as his base offense/defense – in theory, that would likely be the system his team used most recently in his role as a position coach, but I’m not sure how I’d set this up. In general, though, I’d like to see a system where you hire a coordinator primarily for the style of play you want form that side of the ball – whether it’s emphasizing certain formations, getting better production from a certain style of playcalling, or whatever – the coordinator should be the primary signature on the offense or defense. In FOF, if you plan to really shift your team, and adjust from a pass-first finesse team to a smash mouth running team – that ought to be accompanied by a change in offensive coordinator, unless your guy is unusually versatile. I would like for the head coach to retain a role in influencing the playcalling, but this should be the purview of the coordinators primarily.

I think this leaves a major role for the head coach, still – in addition to contributing to playcalling on both sides of the ball, he’d basically be the centerpiece for whatever contributions you get from motivation, discipline, and injury avoidance. In theory, you could also have a separate, new rating for “coach development” that might guide underling staff members. In any event, I don’t feel the HC position would be undermined by some shifting of the responsibilities here… he’d only be one of 8-10 total coaches, but he’d easily still be the primary agent of effect on the team’s performance, I’d think.


I’m sure I have more thoughts to add on the general subject, but for now I’ll wrap up. I don’t know where ideas like this fit, really – we’re potentially years away from an FOF update, I understand that. But, I have had some of these ideas flickering for a while, and finally decided to string them together into a fairly coherent idea. Hope it adds something to the community.

Cheers.

M GO BLUE!!!
03-04-2007, 09:12 PM
I'd like it.

It would add one more dimension to the game...

cthomer5000
03-04-2007, 09:14 PM
I'll give more expanded thoughts on this at another time, but this thread caught my eye at the moment. I would probably like to see injury avoidance dropped from anything to do with coaches, and left to be a league-wide setting.

Icy
03-05-2007, 04:48 AM
I like your suggestions a lot.

WebEwbank
03-05-2007, 05:52 AM
I like your thoughts very much, especially since I prefer the GM mindset of the game, rarely going play-by-play except in the playoffs..

A few more:

Injury avoidance could be driven largely by a strength and conditioning coach. Logical, no ?

Coaches' ability ratings would (and you imply this), rise and fall due to a combination of experience, talent, and luck. And I would like to add being mentored by (while a player and while a coach) a superior coach: look at the Walsh, Noll and Belicheck coaching tree legacies, for example.

New coaching candidates could come largely but not exclusively from ex-players ranks. For other candidates, perhaps there could be a yearly or periodic Greta-like roundup of news, stats and rumors about the top college coaches - maybe snippets about 20 coaches per year. Some of these, of course, might be inaccurate snippets, or hint of future issues: Spurrier, Saban, Lou Holtz...

Agreed that coach turnover should be minimized to avoid a clickfest. The following roles would make sense to me

Off Coord
Off Line
Receivers
R Backs
QB

Strength & Conditoining

Def Coord
Def Line
Linebackers
D Backs

One might also divide the scouting role into college scouting and pro personnel scouting, as the real teams do... It seems to me that some teams excel at drafting, while others do much better at free-agent shopping.

Finally (for now), there would be a coach "player card", with year-by-year performance stats, such as league rank of passing stats for the offensive coordinator and QB coach, fumbles forced for the linebacker coach, etc.. This would be the 'hard data' which would accompany the coach ratings, which would themselves be subjective - e.g. not completely accurate, just as our views of player capabilities are filtered through subjective scout evaluation.

stevew
03-05-2007, 06:26 AM
Another dimension to the coaches might be "loyalty."
My vision would be that this player would be locked into this job with my team for as long as I wanted him to stay, or until he got a promotion offer from another team. If another team were looking at the pool of possible offensive coordinators, they would see Rhea in the universe of possibles (that list might be best were it searchable screen-able by certain attributes) and if someone thought he looked worthy, they could make him an offer. (Maybe he would only appear to other teams this way after he had served a certain number of years, or had achieved a certain level of coaching attributes—I’m open to having most of these guys just fly under the radar until they receive a certain level of attention league-wide)

For instance, I'm fairly certain that teams cannot poach position coaches from other teams without their consent to become coordinators. So, perhaps you get an email from said coach a year or two into his tenure asking you if he can be considered for offensive coordinator positions around the league. You can choose whether to keep him as your RB coach(and reduce his loyalty) or to allow him to enter the OC stage. Presumedly if after his contract expires, you would have a hard time renewing him if you didn't allow him to seek a better job.

Expanding the coaching would be pretty neat, especially if your coaches developed affinities and conflicts.

redfox000
03-05-2007, 07:30 AM
I like this idea a lot!!!

QuikSand
03-05-2007, 07:52 AM
One more thing I had originally planned to include above is a notion that player ratings ought to have some correlation with eventual ratings as a coach or staffer. Here are some of the obvious ones that I'd see:

Loyalty --> likelihood of his team getting an exclusive chance to sign as a coach
Loyalty --> something akin to stevew's idea above
Wants Winner --> motivation (?)
Leadership --> main HC skills - discipline, motivation; player development
Intelligence --> scouting ability (especially in own position group)
Intelligence --> most everything, really
Personality --> motivation, player development
Popularity --> main HC skills - discipline, motivation

Gotee7
03-05-2007, 08:11 AM
Quiksand......you are a God! I would love to see the Coaching dimension expanded.

nole4sho
03-05-2007, 08:40 AM
Great idea. I hope someone can send this to the creator of Front Office Football. If this idea and the others I have read are added then I don't want to see TCY 2.

Narcizo
03-05-2007, 08:41 AM
A lot of excellent ideas here.

Incidentally I don't see any reason why coaches shouldn't have a loyalty and wants winner attributes, helping them decide who to work for.

The "fog of war" (to steal FM's misuse of the term) thing really appeals to me.

laser
03-05-2007, 11:41 AM
Great idea. I would love to see this in the next version.

adubroff
03-05-2007, 02:34 PM
This is a neat group of ideas. I think Staff Cohesion and Staff Affinities might be cool to (either staff to staff or staff to player). I think it would be nice if teams could extend currently contracted coaches also. If I found the OC when he was a 33 yr old scrub, I should be able to at least hear what he wants and meet his desires or let him go free.

Also, if we're really getting crazy with ideas, I think it might be a neat "negotiating point" with head coaches as to how many of their own assistants they get to choose...

WebEwbank
03-05-2007, 05:04 PM
I like that. Ability to hire/ability to develop top-flight assistants could be key attributes in a coach's profile, whether they are explicit or not.

mhass
03-05-2007, 11:19 PM
Don't forget a Special Teams coach. And make sure all the positions get tracked on each coaches card in something more detailed than the current setup. I like looking back to see the progression you're talking about here and documenting the "network" of coaching relationships would be huge. Oh, and allow me to replace a coach - any coach - in times but one single week during the year. Could "interviews" give insight on some of the traits you discuss?

WebEwbank
03-06-2007, 07:59 AM
Yes. Special teams for sure.

Also very yes, documenting the web of coaching relationships.

Yes, interviewing would add a lot - might even have candidates respond with one of the standard 20 answers:
-my way or the highway (Tom Coughlin)
-great players - new scheme needed
-players and scheme okay - my motivational skills needed
-i will adjust to the players
-just happy to be part of a winning management team
etc.

I think that coaching changes are almost solely an off-season activity in the NFL. So a one-phase but multi-week approach, like the existing one, works for me.

albionmoonlight
03-06-2007, 09:33 AM
Just to think outside of the box here, the game could go in the total other direction: getting rid of coaches and scouts and coordinators.

Basically, coaching and scouting would simply become a line on the budget. The amount of resources you dedicated to those areas would affect the resources that you could, say, provide as signing bonuses to free agents.

I like Quik's idea better than mine, but I like mine better than what I have now.

Now, it seems like we get the worst of all worlds. It is an independent stage of the game that requires work, but (to me) it adds no immersion whatsoever. I could not tell you who my coaches are and how long they have been with me. Hell, I couldn't tell you the name of one coach in IHOF, even though I could probably name 50 players right now off the top of my head.

Coach hiring is, to me, just looking at ratings and offering the most money my owner allows.

I understand that FOF is still a work in progress. And I think that this is one of the areas that is ready to either progress or go away.

Good thread, QS.

albionmoonlight
03-06-2007, 09:34 AM
dola--

that coach for SLO who cut off his fingers was named Marble or Mapel or something like that.

redfox000
03-06-2007, 12:23 PM
Coach hiring is, to me, just looking at ratings and offering the most money my owner allows.


That's all I do.

Dutch
03-06-2007, 02:44 PM
I'd LOVE to see coaching expanded like this, great job of stringing your thoughts together here so well.

It would be nice to offer a retired vet a chance to coach. But maybe not the last team he was on, but the team he most identified with (years of service or original team might take priority over his last couple of years as a free agent.)

Off the beaten path a bit to Player Development vs Coaching Development.

Also, I'd like to see the "Wants Winner" category removed. It really adds no value unless a notice is put up when a player signs with one team over another. "FB Man Rhea decided he liked his chances with New York instead of Philadelphia".

Which would be okay, but in the player development realm, I'd like to see that replaced with an "Insists on starting" rating that is totally based on salary. And curve it. The highest paid players at that position based on their current year's salary are rated 100, while absolute minimum wage guys are rated 0. Fill in the blanks along the scale.

And guys rated high in that category that sit on the bench are the guys who quickly become disgruntled...just another layer of depth.

But I digress, great stuff here for the potential future of coaching.

SFL Cat
03-06-2007, 03:44 PM
Good stuff, Dutch.

I would also like to see coach's wedded to systems or styles of play (i.e. Preferred Style of Play -- West Coast, Balanced, Throw Long, Smash Mouth, etc., etc.) and maybe send you e-mails about free agents they'd like you to sign or players they would like to draft.

I would like to see some type of dynamic between the GM/coach develop. If you disregard the coach's advise or try to influence the type of gameplan he wants to run, perhaps there can be a deterioration of the relationship (i.e. Marty Schottenheimer / San Diego management).

I also would like to see cohesion between players and their coaches (i.e. a tough disciplinarian eventually wears out his welcome with his players, that type of stuff).

Also, some kind of generated background info on coaches would be nice too (i.e. former player progressing through the coaching ranks; former college coach; position coach, etc).

Warhammer
03-06-2007, 04:16 PM
Great ideas QS. I agree that there should be a more interesting coaching dynamic. There should also be some degree of flexibility in play style but it could be an interesting dynamic.

Offensive playcalling of the OC is excellent and he likes to throw long, but the HC is a smash-mouth coach, the bonus of the OC is only going to be 25% of what it would normally be, because the HC is overruling the OC and smash-mouth and long passing are opposing styles. But, if the OC and HC are both long ball guys, you get the full amount of the OC's playcalling bonus. Then, you could also have the HC take playcalling responsibility from the OC, and thus only use the HC's value for playcalling (but that would be limited to half of the OCs bonus).

Long passing - WC Offense - Balanced - Smash Mouth

The problem is in a smash mouth offense, when you throw, you go long quite a bit to keep the defense from putting 8 in the box. But this could be fleshed out a bit.

WebEwbank
03-06-2007, 04:48 PM
The interplay between head coach-assistants, head-coach-GM and head coach players would be a tremendous area for Jim to get into. This would really lever the game up a notch, I think, by forcing you to consider the human elements of what are often one- or-two-dimensional decisions (e.g. dollars versus talent or current skills over potential). The happiest moment of the game for me is when I nickname my new players. No, I don't have my Barbie doll any more...