Virginia Tech Campus Shut Down - Shooting Incident

[wade moore]

http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=6375010

BREAKING NEWS - One Dead After Shooting at Virginia Tech Dorm
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</td> </tr> </tbody></table> BLACKSBURG, Va. (AP) -- A shooting at Virginia Tech this morning at a campus dormitory left at least one person dead, and police were trying to catch the shooter.
Virginia Tech officials canceled classes for the day and are warning the university community on the school's Web site that there is a "gunman on the loose" and that students, faculty and staff should stay inside and stay away from windows.
A state government official with knowledge of the incident told The Associated Press that at least one person was killed by the shooter and another was wounded.
School officials say the shooting happened earlier this morning at West Ambler Johnston Hall, one of the largest dorms on campus. It houses nearly 900 students.
Nineteen-year-old student Jason Anthony Smith of Culpeper lives in the dorm, known as "West A-J." He told The Associated Press ... quote ... "There's just a lot of commotion. It's hard to tell exactly what's going on." Smith says police are yelling at students to stay inside and that classes have been canceled.
Officials ordered the 26-hundred-acre campus closed and no one will be allowed on campus.
The shooting incident was the second at the school in less than one year. Last August, the campus was closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard and a sheriff's deputy involved in a massive manhunt.



ugh. .I have a cousin that is in school there now and I know many people here have ties to the school..



I hope it all works out. They are reporting one student killed already, I hope it stops there.

[wade moore]

CNN reporting now that there was a second shooting and 7-8 casualties from that shooting.

That there is 1 dead and 1 wounded in first shooting.


Ugh.

[wade moore]

They are reporting that there is "someone in custody" but that there could still be someone on the loose.

[cthomer5000]

Wasn't there an almost identical story about a year ago? Or am i imagining this?

[wade moore]

Wasn't there an almost identical story about a year ago? Or am i imagining this?

A year ago an escaped inmate was loose on the campus and the campus went on lockdown. I do not believe that anyone was killed in that incident though.

[st.cronin]

Wasn't there an almost identical story about a year ago? Or am i imagining this?

I have a similar recollection, not sure if it was the same school or not.

[wade moore]

A quote from an updated version of the article I pasted above has this..

The shooting incident was the second at the school in less than one year. Last August, the campus was closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard and a sheriff's deputy involved in a massive manhunt.

[cthomer5000]

thanks, my recollection was at least partially right then.

[wade moore]

thanks, my recollection was at least partially right then.

Yup. To VT's credit on this, it seems that VT acted very quickly in both incidents and smartly just shut everything down.

I don't know if you can blame them for the incidents happening in the first place, seems like youc an't - but you can hold them accountable for how they react to the incidents which seems favorable thus far.

[wade moore]

From the VT Website:


Shooting incident on campus


By Larry Hincker ([email protected])
BLACKSBURG, Va., April 16, 2007 -- Virginia Tech has closed today Monday, April 16, 2007. On Tuesday, April 17, classes will be canceled. The university will remain open for administrative operations.
There will be an additional university statement presented today at noon.
All students, faculty, and staff are required to stay where they are until police execute a planned evacuation. A phased closing will be in effect today; further information will be forthcoming as soon as police secure the campus.
Tomorrow, there will be a university convocation/ceremony at noon at Cassell Coliseum. The Inn at Virginia Tech has been designated as the site for parents to gather and obtain information.
-----------------
In addition to an earlier shooting today in West Ambler Johnston, there has been a multiple shooting with multiple victims in Norris Hall.
Police and EMS are on the scene.
Police have one shooter in custody and as part of routine police procedure, they continue to search for a second shooter.
All people in university buildings are required to stay inside until further notice.
All entrances to campus are closed.

[Oilers9911]

Thoughts and prayers for the victims and anyone associated with VT and to those who know someone that is.

[Swaggs]

Very sobering news.

[molson]

VT is enormous - like 30,000 students, right? I think it’s a little bit of media overkill to create this sense that everyone associated with the campus is in danger.

[Desnudo]

They were still hunting for the gunman...

[wade moore]

VT is enormous - like 30,000 students, right? I think it’s a little bit of media overkill to create this sense that everyone associated with the campus is in danger.

I think it's pretty stupid for you to make this statement.

There was a shooting on one side of campus at a dorm and then even with the campus going to lockdown later there was a shooting on the opposite side of the campus where many more people were at least injured (no news of deaths yet)...

I think it's prettys afe to say that if you're on the VT Campus right now you should not feel safe during this incident.

And, as stated, they were still on the lookout for a gunman. You cannot be cavalier in these situations and say "oh, there's 30,000 people, i'm fine".. come on now... putting it on lockdown and feeling like you could be in danger is appropriate.

[Swaggs]

I'm sure that nowhere near all 30,000 students live on campus or were on campus at the time of the shooting. I think it is a smart move to comparmentalize the students and staff that are there, so that they can be accounted for and isolated.

It is a terrible time for any school when a student passes away, but when it is something like this and it sounds like there are quite a few victims, it is going to be a real rough time for the school. Think about all the fun and freedoms you have as a college student and then something like this happens.

[wade moore]

The number injured they are reporting is up to 20.

[wade moore]

Whoah, whoah..

They just said 20 fatalities...

This is NOT good.

[scooper]

One shooting death out of 30,000 students is way too many. Two or more because they failed to act would have tragic.

Tech definately acted correctly.

And for the record, I also recalled the old story and at first thought I might be clicking on the old thread.

[scooper]

One shooting death out of 30,000 students is way too many. Two or more because they failed to act would have tragic.

Tech definately acted correctly.

And for the record, I also recalled the old story and at first thought I might be clicking on the old thread.

If there are indeed 20 fatalities, crap. :(

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Damn.

Headline News is reporting at least 20 killed. :(

[Swaggs]

CNN just said 22 dead, including the gunman.

[Ksyrup]

:(
:mad:

[Ksyrup]

I wonder if the "in custody" suspect is the dead one, or is there really another suspect?

I don't have access to a TV, so I'm just going off of the delayed websites and you guys.


EDIT: Nevermind, I see reference to "lone gunman."

[wade moore]

CNN just said 22 dead, including the gunman.


Just heard 22 dead including the gunman and another 21 injured.

[wade moore]

I wonder if the "in custody" suspect is the dead one, or is there really another suspect?

I don't have access to a TV, so I'm just going off of the delayed websites and you guys.


EDIT: Nevermind, I see reference to "lone gunman."

Not clear at all. They showed a guy in cuffs against a wall early on, but he was clearly not injured.

[Bee]

MSNBC is saying 22 dead and 28 injured.

[molson]

I think it's pretty stupid for you to make this statement.

There was a shooting on one side of campus at a dorm and then even with the campus going to lockdown later there was a shooting on the opposite side of the campus where many more people were at least injured (no news of deaths yet)...



The news has spiraled for the worse since I wrote that, and I wasn't saying anything about VT's lockdown reaction. I was describing an isolated shooting on a huge campus where there might be 10k present at the time. Obviously this situation is now entirely different.

[FrogMan]

The news has spiraled for the worse since I wrote that, and I wasn't saying anything about VT's lockdown reaction. I was describing an isolated shooting on a huge campus where there might be 10k present at the time. Obviously this situation is now entirely different.


I think any kind of shooting, even one that looks isolated, is a serious matter. I mean, we're not talking about a knife attack where you can see the attacker coming your way and there's some kind of a time of reaction involved, we're talking about guns and their potential to injure/kill from a distance. Even if "only" 10k were present on campus, it was a big deal, even before we learned that so many had been touched.

This is sad... :(

FM

[molson]

Fox News still says "Suspect Arrested", everyone else says "Lone Gunman Probably Dead".

[Bee]

As Wade said, they had pictures of somebody being taken into custody. They might have arrested someone who wasn't actually the gunman (incorrectly identified or something).

[GoldenEagle]

It really depresses me to hear about stuff like this.

[Ksyrup]

Couple of random thoughts as my mind continues to try wrapping itself around the magnitude of this tragedy:

Whether it was something as horrific as this or something else entirely, had Don Imus said what he said during a week that wasn't a slow news week, he'd probably still have a job.

And this passage from one of the online articles struck me as amazing. I don't feel like it was THAT long ago that I was in school, but this kind of thing sure makes me feel like it's been like 25-30 years...

"Madison Van Duyne said she and her classmates in a media writing class were on "lockdown" in their classrooms. They were huddled in the middle of the classroom, writing stories about the shootings and posting them online."

[wade moore]

The news has spiraled for the worse since I wrote that, and I wasn't saying anything about VT's lockdown reaction. I was describing an isolated shooting on a huge campus where there might be 10k present at the time. Obviously this situation is now entirely different.

Or you could say that it was an appropriate reaction to an unknown situation.

As someone else said, any time you have a gunman running around a school campus that has shown a willingness to shoot - then everyone is in danger.

[Swaggs]

Couple of random thoughts as my mind continues to try wrapping itself around the magnitude of this tragedy:

Whether it was something as horrific as this or something else entirely, had Don Imus said what he said during a week that wasn't a slow news week, he'd probably still have a job.

And this passage from one of the online articles struck me as amazing. I don't feel like it was THAT long ago that I was in school, but this kind of thing sure makes me feel like it's been like 25-30 years...

"Madison Van Duyne said she and her classmates in a media writing class were on "lockdown" in their classrooms. They were huddled in the middle of the classroom, writing stories about the shootings and posting them online."

I was thinking about the Imus-Rutgers story on this one and that post about whether it is the best we can do in the U.S. as far as news. I'd much rather have another week of Imus-Rutgers and/or Duke Lacross in the news than for us to have something like this happen. I feel terrible for all school students--I think something like this is really going to change things in a lot of university settings across the country.

[wade moore]

I was thinking about the Imus-Rutgers story on this one and that post about whether it is the best we can do in the U.S. as far as news. I'd much rather have another week of Imus-Rutgers and/or Duke Lacross in the news than for us to have something like this happen. I feel terrible for all school students--I think something like this is really going to change things in a lot of university settings across the country.

w0rd.

The good thing in this case that seems to be coming out is that they had some sort of loudspeaker system installed mean for severe weather that they used to alert people to go into lockdown.

I sit here and think about my alma mater, William and Mary, that is about 2 miles from me. I thas only about 5,000 or so students.. but I can't imagine how they would work this. If this happened, I see no practical way to get the word out to people in classes, dorms, etc, etc... there is just no way I can think of to notify people en masse to get to safety. For as bad as the High School shootings are (and they're awful) there is at least a built-in method (pre-set signals, intercom, etc) for alerting everyone to the situation.

[Ksyrup]

I read elsewhere that Fox News is reporting there were multiple bomb threats made last week, including to the building where most of the killings took place. Anyone heard that?

Also, I know this isn't the specific date, but it's within a week of Columbine/Waco/OKC.

[wade moore]

I read elsewhere that Fox News is reporting there were multiple bomb threats made last week, including to the building where most of the killings took place. Anyone heard that?

Also, I know this isn't the specific date, but it's within a week of Columbine/Waco/OKC.

Yeah, the bomb threat thing I've heard..

But the students they've had on the phone and my general reaction - unfortuantely this has become an all too common method of getting out of tests, etc. That's the assumption with the previous bomb threats - no credible evidence of any real bombs in any of them.

[Ksyrup]

Maybe not real, or maybe not even related, but could also be some indication of agitated behavior before the esclation to what happened today.

[King of New York]

w0rd.

The good thing in this case that seems to be coming out is that they had some sort of loudspeaker system installed mean for severe weather that they used to alert people to go into lockdown.

I sit here and think about my alma mater, William and Mary, that is about 2 miles from me. I thas only about 5,000 or so students.. but I can't imagine how they would work this. If this happened, I see no practical way to get the word out to people in classes, dorms, etc, etc... there is just no way I can think of to notify people en masse to get to safety. For as bad as the High School shootings are (and they're awful) there is at least a built-in method (pre-set signals, intercom, etc) for alerting everyone to the situation.

We'd be effed at W&M--nearly every school would be. It's hard to think of a more vulnerable environment than a college classroom: dozens or maybe hundreds of kids packed into rows, just two or three exits, anyone can wander in at any time.

Sad to say, but I expect that these shootings are going to touch off a wave of copycat shootings on other campuses. Every school has its borderline sociopaths.

I've always wondered what I would do if someone walked into my class with a gun--assuming that I'd get the chance to do anything.

Thoughts and prayers go out to the Hokies today.

[wade moore]

So...

I've heard about my cousin - his mother called mine - he's fine...

He has some VERY disturbing info on what word is happened here.

Do you guys want me to post that, or would it be completely irresponsible?

[wade moore]

We'd be effed at W&M--nearly every school would be. It's hard to think of a more vulnerable environment than a college classroom: dozens or maybe hundreds of kids packed into rows, just two or three exits, anyone can wander in at any time.

Sad to say, but I expect that these shootings are going to touch off a wave of copycat shootings on other campuses. Every school has its borderline sociopaths.

I've always wondered what I would do if someone walked into my class with a gun--assuming that I'd get the chance to do anything.

Thoughts and prayers go out to the Hokies today.

A-Ha, finally figured it out, so you are a professor, eh? I had a suspicion ;)...

Anyway, yes.. I agree.. it is an incredibly vulnerable situation... Hard to think of one more vulnerable.

The copycat thing certainly worries me, and I don't know that there is that much that universities can do about it.

[Swaggs]

So...

I've heard about my cousin - his mother called mine - he's fine...

He has some VERY disturbing info on what word is happened here.

Do you guys want me to post that, or would it be completely irresponsible?

I suspect that most information will leak out throughout the next few days, so I am interested in hearing from a student's point of view.

[wade moore]

I'm going to hold off for now.

The info is pretty specific, particularly if someone knows someone involved, and is so detailed that it's quite possibly a rumor that built up in the hysteria and has little to no basis in truth.

[MikeVic]

Wow, I never thought 22 would be dead after this. I checked in this thread earlier and saw 1 dead, with the gunman "possibly" being caught already. So I assumed they caught him. Now I hear that there's 22 dead. Sad. :(

I can't imagine what I would be thinking if the University I attended had an inmate running wild and shootings like this in back-to-back years. I'd be teaching myself out of textbooks at home for awhile I think.

[Young Drachma]

This is sad. But reveals how really insecure college campuses tend to be. I mean, there isn't a whole lot stopping things like this from happening on campuses and I really would worry about copycat situations.

[Bee]

abcnews.com is reporting the death toll now at 25 and expected to rise.

[wade moore]

Wow, I never thought 22 would be dead after this. I checked in this thread earlier and saw 1 dead, with the gunman "possibly" being caught already. So I assumed they caught him. Now I hear that there's 22 dead. Sad. :(

I can't imagine what I would be thinking if the University I attended had an inmate running wild and shootings like this in back-to-back years. I'd be teaching myself out of textbooks at home for awhile I think.

and in fact, these incidents were both in the same academic year, it was only back in september (first day of classes).

That being said, I still feel like this isn't an indictment of the safety of VT and merely two isolated incidents.

[Ksyrup]

I don't think there's any way to stop this kind of thing from happening, not on an open campus setting like virtually every college/university has.

I'm assuming, from the high concentration of deaths in the second building, that he basically killed an entire class - had them stuck in that one room - rather than the typical cafeteria-type shootings we read about in high schools where people have multiple ways of escaping and the success rate is far less.

Just freaking awful. I just can't imagine.

[Bee]

abcnews.com is reporting the death toll now at 25 and expected to rise.


abcnews.com has just updated their story to 29 confirmed dead. I'm hoping their information is wrong.

[Swaggs]

It really drives home how much we forget how free we are here in the U.S. If someone is not afraid to die, imagine what they could do in a mall or movie theatre or something like that. Pretty damn scary.

[GoldenEagle]

Fox News just said 29 people killed.

Edit - Now at least 32 people killed.

[GoldenEagle]

wade moore, did it have anything to do with people being killed execution style? FOX news seems to be hinting that it happened that way in the Norris Hall. This whole thing is just awful.

[wade moore]

abcnews.com has just updated their story to 29 confirmed dead. I'm hoping their information is wrong.

CNN has been pretty on top of things all-day from what I've seen, including a lot of coverage from the local affiliate.

No updates from the 22 number here, but they also only updated that when the official word came during a press conference.

[Bee]

The local radio station just announced the 32 people killed that Fox News is reporting.

[wade moore]

GE - Yes

CNN is starting to show more and more footage...

Including people being put into ambulances, etc... and there was a shot of an older man (fully white hair) holding a bandage on his arm - so it would seem that at least one injury was a professor or something similar.

[wade moore]

The local radio station just announced the 32 people killed that Fox News is reporting.

I'm not one to normally get into the "Fox News is sensationalistic" thing, but I have to give credit to CNN right now for only reporting things from official sources..

Apparently the rumor I heard is spreading like wildfire, yet not even the slightest mention on CNN.

[wade moore]

Just as I say that, CNN get's irresponsible imo..

Showing kids saying "we're worried about our RA [insert name here] who was in the building but we haven't heard from all day"..

And they said her name..

[Bee]

I'm not one to normally get into the "Fox News is sensationalistic" thing, but I have to give credit to CNN right now for only reporting things from official sources..

Apparently the rumor I heard is spreading like wildfire, yet not even the slightest mention on CNN.

Well, the local radio station reported the number as coming from a police source and being reported from various news agencies, but who knows. Things can get pretty confusing when something like this happens.

[Huckleberry]

Terrible situation. As a University of Texas alumnus the historical footnote of being the location of the deadliest incident in American college history was one I had begrudgingly hoped to keep. My family's thoughts and prayers will be with the entire Virginia Tech community.

[MrBug708]

CNN is getting bombarded with students phone calls

[molson]

The chaos makes inconsistent information totally reasonable. I think, the internet age, we’ve decided we want information quickly above all, and then we’ll sort it out later. Inconsistencies come with that, but shouldn’t be read into or overly criticized. People have actually used inconsistencies in the news after 9/11 as proof of conspiracies. Just because something gets reported, we shouldn’t assume 100% truth of everything the minutes after something happens.

[wade moore]

Wow..

Just turned to Fox News cause CNN was getting repetitve..

Seriously, they just seem to be willing to throw whatever they hear out htere..

FWIW, they are reporting that the gunman was a "Heavily armed Asian Man" and that there are 32 dead.

[Bee]

I'm going to hold off for now.

The info is pretty specific, particularly if someone knows someone involved, and is so detailed that it's quite possibly a rumor that built up in the hysteria and has little to no basis in truth.


I wouldn't mind hearing what you heard because I just heard a rumor of what happened from one of the guys in my office who talked to his son who attends VT. I'm curious if it's similar.

[wade moore]

It seems that what I heard is practically being reported on Fox News, so I don't think there's too much harm in saying it now..

What I heard was:

The guy was looking for a girl (reported on Fox News)
Went to the dorm to find her, the RA wouldn't let him in so he killed her and shot another girl (reported on Fox News)
He then went to this Norris building looking for the girl. Went into the classroom he thought she would be in, had everyone line up on the ground so he could find her, and then proceeded to shoot them "execution style" (some of this, without some of the details, was reported on Fox News)

So..

can't confirm whether it's true, but I've had several people mention pieces of this story enough for me to realize this story is big time out already.. my fiance, who is a teacher here in Williamsburg, heard the story - so it's out there..

I can't claim whether it's true as it came 3rd hand from my Cousin who as far as I know is just hearing it from other students.

[Emiliano]

Aw, s**t, I've just heard about this tragedy on TV. Horrible, horrible. My thoughts for everyone associated with VT.

[Bee]

That's more or less what I heard as well, almost word for word.

edit: The only thing that I heard that you didn't mention was supposedly the girl he was looking for had cheated on him.

[wade moore]

That's more or less what I heard as well, almost word for word.

edit: The only thing that I heard that you didn't mention was supposedly the girl he was looking for had cheated on him.

I've heard that elsewhere, but not in the original story that I heard.

[Fighter of Foo]

This is sad. But reveals how really insecure anywhere in the world can be. I mean, there isn't a whole lot stopping things like this from happening on campuses and I really would worry about copycat situations.

Not making light of what happened at all, but this is very important. This could have happened in a park, mall, stadium, etc. and the verbiage would be exactly the same.

We can't make the world completely safe for our family, friends and kids. It's just not possible. This very, very sad shooting just makes that clear.

Never live afraid.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Is it crazy to wonder about the girlfriend and whether she survived? It sounds like he may not have found her. If so, imagine the guilt she would have that her small actions regarding this goofball resulted in the deaths of a lot of people. Brutal stuff.

[MrBug708]

Is it crazy to wonder about the girlfriend and whether she survived? It sounds like he may not have found her. If so, imagine the guilt she would have that her small actions regarding this goofball resulted in the deaths of a lot of people. Brutal stuff.

Girls, dont cheat on guys

[biological warrior]

AP reports: 31 dead.

[MrBug708]

MSNBC has a reporter talking about how Asian students are under much more stress and more likely to do something like this...

*sigh*

[Young Drachma]

MSNBC has a reporter talking about how Asian students are under much more stress and more likely to do something like this...

*sigh*

The 'media' seriously needs to diversify its ranks. This type of journalism has been gone on entirely too long and really, it's just laziness of the first rank, by people who are generally well-intentioned but not informed enough to be worthwhile.

[/soapbox]

[Young Drachma]

Not making light of what happened at all, but this is very important. This could have happened in a park, mall, stadium, etc. and the verbiage would be exactly the same.

We can't make the world completely safe for our family, friends and kids. It's just not possible. This very, very sad shooting just makes that clear.

Never live afraid.

Indeed, indeed.

[st.cronin]

I'm reminded of the Long Island Rail Road shootings, more than anything else. Very sad. A girl I go to school with, her brother attends VT.

[molson]

MSNBC has a reporter talking about how Asian students are under much more stress and more likely to do something like this...

*sigh*

For the love of....

That's 1000% worse than what Imus said - discussion for another day.

[wade moore]

For the love of....

That's 1000% worse than what Imus said - discussion for another day.

Agreed and agreed.

[Crapshoot]

Shit, what a fucking tragedy. Out of curiosity though, is this "terrorism" as per the definition?

[King of New York]

MSNBC has a reporter talking about how Asian students are under much more stress and more likely to do something like this...

*sigh*

Oh, for crying out loud, I would hope that any reporter ignorant enough to spout BS like that in connection with a massacre would be out of a job pronto...

[MrBug708]

Local feed

http://a999.l1234555656.c12345.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/999/12345/v0001/reflector:55656

[biological warrior]

I've never heard off a domestic shooting (general; both school et. ala) claiming this many lives.

[MrBug708]

Supposedly people were jumping out of the windows of Norris Hall...

[MrBug708]

With this happening, Alberto Gonzales is also a beneficiary of the media's new "cause du jour", as we will hear almost nothing about his testimony and related issues this week....

[adubroff]

For the love of....

That's 1000% worse than what Imus said - discussion for another day.


Not really relevant at this time, but no, it's not. This is a stereotype (and a semi positive one), that's a slur....

[Toddzilla]

If the 32 casualty count is correct, that makes this the worst shooting incident in US history - never mind it being school or campus related.

[st.cronin]

With this happening, Alberto Gonzales is also a beneficiary of the media's new "cause du jour", as we will hear almost nothing about his testimony and related issues this week....

I am NOT looking forward to hearing the inevitable conspiracy theories about this.

[wade moore]

Supposedly people were jumping out of the windows of Norris Hall...

Yeah, this has been widely reported all day... some from as high as 4 stories up is what some of the news reports have said...

[JPhillips]

Let me clear that I'm not faulting any students, but I'm really surprised that the guy wasn't rushed by a group before he could kill that many students.

[wade moore]

And on Fox news they have our friend Jack Thompson...

Ugh...

[Klinglerware]

Let me clear that I'm not faulting any students, but I'm really surprised that the guy wasn't rushed by a group before he could kill that many students.

I would say that self-preservation calculus is at the heart of this. I figure that if this happened on a plane, a perpetrator would be more likely to have been rushed: if something happened to the cockpit crew the chance of death for all is pretty high, so there is an incentive to rush a gunman before something happened to the pilot. In a situation like the one today, rushing the gunman is probably not an optimal survival strategy for any one individual.

But in the end, very few of us will really know what we would have done if put in that situation.

[Subby]

My little brother is a junior at Tech. He said right now he is just focused on making sure everyone he knows is okay.

Chris Shue RAA: are you hearing anything from friends?
Charleym14: well
Charleym14: I talked to a couple of people from high school, seems everyone is safe from there
Charleym14: that we know of
Charleym14: all of my freshman engineering buddies are okay
Charleym14: a couple of people I was worried about have logged on or said something on facebook in the last 30 minutes
Charleym14: but im dreading looking at that list
Charleym14: when it comes out

:(

[Wolfpack]

Let me clear that I'm not faulting any students, but I'm really surprised that the guy wasn't rushed by a group before he could kill that many students.

I've thought about that myself, but that requires some degree of coordination and recognition by multiple students. If he's got them all facing the ground or away from him, it's awfully difficult to coordinate any sort of rush, though of course when it became obvious they were going to be killed, you'd think someone would have preferred dying on his feet (which may indeed have happened).

We all probably have played a moment like that out in our own minds and we'd all like to think it'd bring the action hero out in ourselves where we calmly find a way to defeat the bad guy, but in reality, I'm not so sure we'd end up the same as most others, scared *less and possibly dead. By our very natures, we seek to extend our own lives and putting up resistance is the most likely way of shortening it, particularly if you see the person has no compunction about killing.

[wade moore]

I would say that self-preservation calculus is at the heart of this. I figure that if this happened on a plane, a perpetrator would be more likely to have been rushed: if something happened to the cockpit crew the chance of death for all is pretty high, so there is an incentive to rush a gunman before something happened to the pilot. In a situation like the one today, rushing the gunman is probably not an optimal survival strategy for any one individual.

But in the end, very few of us will really know what we would have done if put in that situation.There's a reason that the actions of the folks on the plane in PA are heralded so highly... as much as we all think we would do the same thing, so many times we as humans have proven that we wouldn't.

[rowech]

I would say that self-preservation calculus is at the heart of this. I figure that if this happened on a plane, a perpetrator would be more likely to have been rushed: if something happened to the cockpit crew the chance of death for all is pretty high, so there is an incentive to rush a gunman before something happened to the pilot. In a situation like the one today, rushing the gunman is probably not an optimal survival strategy for any one individual.

But in the end, very few of us will really know what we would have done if put in that situation.

That is exactly what I told my students today. (10th graders) I have no idea, nor do any of us know how we would react. We like to think what we would do. With that said, I too am surprised more people didn't simply say enough already and rush the guy.

[King of New York]

Let me clear that I'm not faulting any students, but I'm really surprised that the guy wasn't rushed by a group before he could kill that many students.

Well, the guy had the element of surprise entirely on his side. At least one student (Derek O'Dell?) said the shooter just stepped into his classroom and started blasting away, before anyone had a chance to understand the situation. On Flight 93, people had a bit of time to come to grips with the unexpected and formulate a plan.

There is a lot that we do not know right now, but if it's true that 1) a couple of hours elapsed between the two sets of shootings, 2) Tech went ahead with classes even though the shooter was on the loose, and 3) the campus-wide notification of the first shooting came only a couple of hours later, then the school's administration is going to come in for a lot of criticism--perhaps justifiably so.

[wade moore]

Well, the guy had the element of surprise entirely on his side. At least one student (Derek O'Dell?) said the shooter just stepped into his classroom and started blasting away, before anyone had a chance to understand the situation. On Flight 93, people had a bit of time to come to grips with the unexpected and formulate a plan.

There is a lot that we do not know right now, but if it's true that 1) a couple of hours elapsed between the two sets of shootings, 2) Tech went ahead with classes even though the shooter was on the loose, and 3) the campus-wide notification of the first shooting came only a couple of hours later, then the school's administration is going to come in for a lot of criticism--perhaps justifiably so.

I'm not 100% clear at this point whether the campus was on lockdown when the 2nd shooting happened or not.

If not, then yes, this could really look bad for the VT administration.

[[email protected]]

I work 100 yds from the first shooting and the administation sent out lots of emails to let us know what was happening and they had no idea that 1 shooting at the dorm would lead to 30+ at an academic building 2 hours later.

[BrianD]

I'm not 100% clear at this point whether the campus was on lockdown when the 2nd shooting happened or not.

If not, then yes, this could really look bad for the VT administration.

What was the timeline for all of this? Two people shot in a dorm, and then later a whole classroom gunned down? If that is the way it happened, I'm not so sure the lockdown would have been obviously the right call. Shootings are not at all common on a college campus, but I would imagine a shooter leaving a dorm with just one attack (and a bystander) would seem like an isolated incident.

[wade moore]

What was the timeline for all of this? Two people shot in a dorm, and then later a whole classroom gunned down? If that is the way it happened, I'm not so sure the lockdown would have been obviously the right call. Shootings are not at all common on a college campus, but I would imagine a shooter leaving a dorm with just one attack (and a bystander) would seem like an isolated incident.

The shooting at the dorm happened and then 2+ hours later the shooting at the academic building across the campus.

The police were aware that the shooter was loose.

I suppose I can see how it's not an obvious call - but certainly those in the media, politics, family, etc will say it was. That's all I'm saying is that they'll take heat, and in my personal opinion probably rightfully so.

[wade moore]

Dola:

Particularly because of the story involved that seems to be saying that the guy came to the dorm looking for his g/f, and was unable to find here there....

I don't think it's a leap to presume he continued to look for her.

[Izulde]

It's a sad, sad day in any case.

[JPhillips]

I think an unknown guy with a gun that has already killed demands a more serious response. I wouldn't expect them to know there would be more shootings, but you have to assume the worst when the gunman's whereabouts and motives are unknown.

[wade moore]

Note:

I have CNN on now, Blitzer is giving an overview..

He just said that the campus was on lockdown when they got word of the 2nd shooting...

This is why I say I'm confused as to what the true story is.

[King of New York]

There seems to be a lot of conflicting reports: if the campus was on lockdown after the first shooting, then why are students strolling around campus and attending classes being taught in the usual manner as if it were a normal school day?

No doubt the administration had no idea that the first incident would lead to the second incident, but what was to be gained by not locking down the campus and cancelling classes for a day?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

There's a reason that the actions of the folks on the plane in PA are heralded so highly... as much as we all think we would do the same thing, so many times we as humans have proven that we wouldn't.

This is so true... A few years ago a little girl darted out in front of a car just a couple feet from me. Luckily the car stopped in time, because as much as I believed I wold have done something... I simply froze and screamed.

We never know how we'll react to a sudden situation.

I am saddened by both this shooting, and how desensitized I am becoming to such horrible events. 15 years ago this story would be shocking. Now it is just awful.

[Karlifornia]

Damn...insanity...

[Draft Dodger]

There seems to be a lot of conflicting reports: if the campus was on lockdown after the first shooting, then why are students strolling around campus and attending classes being taught in the usual manner as if it were a normal school day?


do we know that classes were being taught?

[GoldenEagle]

Another point to keep in mind is that the hijackers on the plane in PA had knives. I would much rather rush a guy who had a knife then one who had a gun.

[nilodor]

What exactly is a lockdown? Do they just hold students in class? In that case there would be alot wandering around campus anyways? It is a tough decision to make, on the one hand if the person is just wanting to shoot people, you would want to get everyone into rooms (out of the open) if you can't get them off campus but in this case it sounds like they were looking for someone so you've pretty much guaranteed that they will be there by holding them in class. What a shitty deal.

[Subby]

Student describes shooting spree

Student's account

Nikolas Macko was in class at Virginia Tech when a gunman entered the building and started shooting. He described the experience to the BBC News website.

I was in class in Norris Hall at around 0940 when we heard a series of loud bangs coming from the hallway.

The sound did not register immediately, even though it was startlingly loud.

When it started again seconds later, the girl sitting by the door decided to close the door.

She peeked out into the hallway, and saw the shooter, so she immediately closed the door shut.

Three other students moved a table that was in front of the room and barricaded it against the door.

A few seconds later, the shooter tried to open the door, but my classmates kept it well shut, as they held the table against it.

The shooter shot the door twice at chest level, which resulted in two holes in the door, one of which hit the podium in the front of the classroom and the other continued out the window.

'Seriously hurt'

At this point he reloaded, shot the door again - this shot did not penetrate - and moved on to the other classrooms.

As we heard the police arrive outside, the shooting continued, and the officers eventually came through the building

Thankfully, nobody in our room was hurt. At this point, I was already on the phone with the emergency dispatcher, indicating to them that there was a shooting on the second floor of Norris Hall.

The shooting continued for several minutes, until the police arrived, and the shooter must have shot at least 80-100 rounds.

As we heard the police arrive outside the building, the shooting continued, and the officers eventually came through the building.

Even though it seemed to take quite a long time, the timer on my phone seemed to indicate that the whole sequence of events was over in only 25 minutes.

At that point, we were escorted from the building by the police.

Clearly someone had been seriously hurt in the hallway not more than a few paces from our classroom.

I did not look in the adjoining classrooms, but those who did simply told me after that "it was sad".

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/talking_point/6561733.stm

[Subby]

Doesn't sound like they were on lockdown from that account...

[Hurst2112]

horrible. what a sad day.

[Hurst2112]

No lockdown policy according to the VP. he sounded confused.

[Hurst2112]

'classroom building are open all the time' dorms are electronically secured.'

[Ksyrup]

Twenty-five minutes seems like an awfully long time. I mean, I know they not only need to get there but also assess the situation, but it seems clear that this wasn't a hostage situation - shots were constantly being fired.

[BrianD]

Dola:

Particularly because of the story involved that seems to be saying that the guy came to the dorm looking for his g/f, and was unable to find here there....

I don't think it's a leap to presume he continued to look for her.

No, not a leap at all, though I'm guessing nobody knew about that story at the time. I can see where a lockdown wouldn't have been so bad, but in most situations it will seem like an overreaction. More often than not when a guy shoots someone, he is probably racing off to hide the gun or himself. Going to a completely different area of the school to do more shooting probably wasn't even a thought.

It wouldn't surprise me if parents sue over the fact that the school wasn't locked down, but the sequence of events (from the school's side) doesn't seem unreasonable.

Sad day for everyone involved. Even going forward, I don't know how you would ever prepare for something like this. Sad that anybody has to.

[Hurst2112]

They keep showing this overweight state cop carrying an AR15 or M16 and running.

He looks out of shape. That's scary.

This campus police chief 'doesn't know' a lot of things. I realize there is an ongoing investigation but does he not know? Or, is he passing on answering the questions?

[Hurst2112]

In the news conference, there isn't an FBI agent on the panel. Wouldn't the FBI or secret service be involved?

[Ryan S]

This campus police chief 'doesn't know' a lot of things. I realize there is an ongoing investigation but does he not know? Or, is he passing on answering the questions?

Almost certainly the latter.

[Hurst2112]

I just saw the video that has the 27 shots audible.

Were those campus police just standing there behind trees? There were about 25 shots before it appeared that they breeched the door.

[path12]

This campus police chief 'doesn't know' a lot of things. I realize there is an ongoing investigation but does he not know? Or, is he passing on answering the questions?

It's still awfully early to really have answers at this point, so although he's almost certainly passing on some, I do believe there's quite a bit they are still trying to find out.

[Hurst2112]

So the gov. just said that the ATF (if I'm not mistaken is part of the secret service?) is involved with the investigation.

[sabotai]

In the news conference, there isn't an FBI agent on the panel. Wouldn't the FBI or secret service be involved?

It's not a federal case, so no, there wouldn't be any FBI or Secret Service involvement in the investigation (EDIT: Unless the local police asks for it.).

[sabotai]

So the gov. just said that the ATF (if I'm not mistaken is part of the secret service?) is involved with the investigation.

Not part of the Secret Service, they both are operated under the Department of Treasury.

[Hurst2112]

It's not a federal case, so no, there wouldn't be any FBI or Secret Service involvement in the investigation (EDIT: Unless the local police asks for it.).

Yeah but wouldn't there be some post 911 rules that would allow FBI to take jurisdiction? As well, the gov DID say that the ATF was involved. There is your federal connection.

[McSweeny]

Yeah but wouldn't there be some post 911 rules that would allow FBI to take jurisdiction? As well, the gov DID say that the ATF was involved. There is your federal connection.

from what i understand the ATF is involved to track down the weapons the gunman used. Where the came from, how he got them, etc, etc

[Hurst2112]

CNN just reported that federals were assisting in the situation.

[molson]

I really hope we don't get to the point where indefinitely holding 10,000 people against their will while things are sorted out is the response to every act of violence where there's a fatality.

[Oilers9911]

My little brother is a junior at Tech. He said right now he is just focused on making sure everyone he knows is okay.

Chris Shue RAA: are you hearing anything from friends?
Charleym14: well
Charleym14: I talked to a couple of people from high school, seems everyone is safe from there
Charleym14: that we know of
Charleym14: all of my freshman engineering buddies are okay
Charleym14: a couple of people I was worried about have logged on or said something on facebook in the last 30 minutes
Charleym14: but im dreading looking at that list
Charleym14: when it comes out

:(

Subby,

My thoughts are with your brother and his friends, and needless to say anyone associated wit VT in any way shape or form. Terrible terrible day. When did simply going to school become a fucking life or death scenario?

[bhlloy]

Just got in... damn what a sad situation.

My first thought is that it's a hell of an assumption to make that the shooter has left campus and isn't a danger to the students, and to send out an e-mail and let the day go on as normal. Whoever made that decision is in a whole world of trouble. I can't imagine what the local police were thinking either. 29 deaths could have been avoided by doing what I would hope would be standard procedure for these kinds of situations.

[molson]

29 deaths could have been avoided by doing what I would hope would be standard procedure for these kinds of situations.

How could the deaths have been avoided exactly?

The blame game is just too much. I think it can actually hamper the healing process. Crap does happen at universities (like it does anywhere else). Someone here in Idaho got murdered at their off-campus apartment last week near the University of Idaho. There's a much smaller number of people in the immediate area then there was in this instance. The guy got away. No useless lockdowns. And like most murders, it was an isolated incident.

[Maple Leafs]

I really hope we don't get to the point where indefinitely holding 10,000 people against their will while things are sorted out is the response to every act of violence where there's a fatality.
That seems to be what people want.

A campus is a big place, with thousands of people. Image you were at the mall and there was a shooting in the parking lot -- how would you feel if you were told you had to stay where you were for hours, due to a lockdown? It's easy to see that in hindsight that may have saved lives here, but people are acting like it's the obvious answer. It's not.

[molson]

That seems to be what people want.

A campus is a big place, with thousands of people. Image you were at the mall and there was a shooting in the parking lot -- how would you feel if you were told you had to stay where you were for hours, due to a lockdown? It's easy to see that in hindsight that may have saved lives here, but people are acting like it's the obvious answer. It's not.

Agreed, and mall's one building. This would be like if a man shot a woman at a mall, and you're detained at starbucks a mile away. You'd be pissed, and constitutionalality of what was happening would be very dubious.

[wade moore]

How could the deaths have been avoided exactly?

The blame game is just too much. I think it can actually hamper the healing process. Crap does happen at universities (like it does anywhere else). Someone here in Idaho got murdered at their off-campus apartment last week near the University of Idaho. There's a much smaller number of people in the immediate area then there was in this instance. The guy got away. No useless lockdowns. And like most murders, it was an isolated incident.

The more I think about this, and after watching the press conference earlier, I'm leaning more this direction...

In hindsight the lockdown seems like a no-brainer... but on the flip side, a lockdown here to me is more equivalent to if in a small town a murder happens in an apartment building, and they put the whole town on lockdown. I'm just not sure it is the obvious decision. I couldn't have faulted that decision, but it just doesn't seem obvious. If they had put it on lockdown and they guy was apprehended 2 hours later, would we be criticizing the school for trapping these kids for 2 hours with no evidence he'd do anything to these other kids?

On top of that, if they were put on lockdown, what would that have done? If kids were already on their way to class at lockdown (when the police responded around 7:30 to the original incident and there are classes at 8:00, I doubt they could get the lockdown before kids got to their classes)... short of an armed guard at every door (not sure you can organize that that fast) how do they stop this specific incident? I just think it's not so black and white as people want to make it out to be.

I'm sure there are lessons to be learned, but I think we need to be careful at how much criticism the authorities get for their decisions.

Now, how moronic the VT President looked in the press conference, there's really no excuse for that. You shouldn't be showing that a Campus Chief of Police has more savvy in front of the media than you.

[Easy Mac]

Michael Savage says its because the liberals won't allow people to carry concealed weapons... as if allowing kids on a college campus would somehow prevent something like this. Also, the media is covering up the fact the kid is asian to be PC.

Why can't idiotic talk show people just let for an event like this speak for itself, the act of a disturbed kid, instead of inserting their stupid political ideologies.

[wade moore]

To add:

I just think it's a bit silly for media, us, etc. to judge what the 'obvious decision' was here.. it was a very tough, VERY unusual situation that I just don't think is so cut and dry and easy to handle as some want to make it.

[larrymcg421]

I think the most important aspect of the timeline that needs to be known is the length of time between school officials knowing that the guy was looking for his girlfriend and they ordered a lockdown. If he was looking for her, and she was obviously a student then yes you shut down the entire school until it gets sorted out. I'm also wondering if she was an engineering student and when they knew that.

Example: If a guy went to a house and shot people while looking for a specific person, and you knew that person worked at the mall, then yes, you shut down the entire mall until he is apprehended.

[molson]

To add:

I just think it's a bit silly for media, us, etc. to judge what the 'obvious decision' was here.. it was a very tough, VERY unusual situation that I just don't think is so cut and dry and easy to handle as some want to make it.

It's really painful to watch the VT administration (who must be grieving themselves) be subject to the attacks I'm seeing at the press conferences. I understand they're just trying to get the info out, but it's shame that our first reaction after a tragedy always has to be liability. Everyone has to be careful about what they say - that's unfortunately the #1 priority at this point.

[st.cronin]

Its way too early to start placing any blame on anybody but the shooter.

[adubroff]

It's really painful to watch the VT administration (who must be grieving themselves) be subject to the attacks I'm seeing at the press conferences. I understand they're just trying to get the info out, but it's shame that our first reaction after a tragedy always has to be liability. Everyone has to be careful about what they say - that's unfortunately the #1 priority at this point.


The other thing which is really ugly is they really are not dealing with top notch national media which you tend to see national stories of this magnitude because I don't think they've had a time to get on the ground. They are asking questions which they know(or should know) the officer is not going to answer. I understand it's their constitutional right to ask but ultimately they need to use some discretion.

[molson]

The other thing which is really ugly is they really are not dealing with top notch national media which you tend to see national stories of this magnitude because I don't think they've had a time to get on the ground. They are asking questions which they know(or should know) the officer is not going to answer. I understand it's their constitutional right to ask but ultimately they need to use some discretion.

The worst question I heard so far was, "What could you have done differently that would have prevented this attack". Ya, OK.

You're right, there's probably a bunch of local journalist hacks who view this as their big moment.

[Young Drachma]

How could the deaths have been avoided exactly?

The blame game is just too much. I think it can actually hamper the healing process. Crap does happen at universities (like it does anywhere else). Someone here in Idaho got murdered at their off-campus apartment last week near the University of Idaho. There's a much smaller number of people in the immediate area then there was in this instance. The guy got away. No useless lockdowns. And like most murders, it was an isolated incident.

Three kids here from the University of Wyoming were killed last summer at an off - campus apartment. It was over a girl. One kid actually survived and the gunmen was one of the three killed.

[Young Drachma]

The worst question I heard so far was, "What could you have done differently that would have prevented this attack". Ya, OK.

You're right, there's probably a bunch of local journalist hacks who view this as their big moment.

Yeah, they've practiced in their mirror for years for this "big moment". You can't fake sincerity and often the "right" question isn't to prod and press and ask the "hard questions" that you feel like people want to know, when clearly the authorities don't know the answer anyway.

[Vince]

:(

[Easy Mac]

I think the problem is trying to apply logic to a completely illogical situation. Its not like something like this is on the plate of a university president before it happens. Their main job is to be a fund raiser, not trying to figure out ways to keep lunatics off campus.

Though, I'm pretty sure that VT dorms do have keycard entrance, but from my experience, they were only on at night.

[adubroff]

I think the problem is trying to apply logic to a completely illogical situation. Its not like something like this is on the plate of a university president before it happens. Their main job is to be a fund raiser, not trying to figure out ways to keep lunatics off campus.

Though, I'm pretty sure that VT dorms do have keycard entrance, but from my experience, they were only on at night.


Also, campus cops are not hardened NYC street cops most likely. They are guys who probably were regular cops at one point who decided it was smarter to bust underaged drinkers rather than getting shot at. Maybe these guys have the background to deal with this sort of thing (if anybody has that background), but it's got to be deep, deep in the recesses of their backgrounds.

[bronconick]

Example: If a guy went to a house and shot people while looking for a specific person, and you knew that person worked at the mall, then yes, you shut down the entire mall until he is apprehended.

I'd prefer you just find that person and take them into protective custody rather then detaining a few thousand other people for an indeterminate amount of time.

[Easy Mac]

Locking down 4 square miles is easier said than done.

[larrymcg421]

I'd prefer you just find that person and take them into protective custody rather then detaining a few thousand other people for an indeterminate amount of time.

Well of course you find him, too. But in the scenario I described, I think it's logical that he is very likely headed to the mall to find her. If I was in the mall at that time, I would have no problem being detained over those circumstances.

I'm not saying people should be detained for a 24 hour period, but at least for a short time and then afterwards with heavy security patrols inside and outside the mall.

[King of New York]

I sympathize with the Virginia Tech president--most people in that position would have probably made the same decision. I can even understand the decision not to lockdown the campus after the initial shooting, although in hindsight I think it has to be acknowledged as a mistake--it assumed a rational killer who would want to get away, but assuming the rationality of killers is not always the right thing to do. I couldn't agree more that the questioning by reporters was somewhat disgusting at times.

BUT...

There is a middle ground between locking down the campus after the initial incident, on the one hand, and going on with "business as usual." VT elected to hold regular classes and let thousands of students and staff onto a campus where a shooting had just taken place, thereby needlessly putting them in harm's way. If there was a shooting in a mall and two hours later, I showed up and was turned away because no one knew where the shooter was, would I feel like authorities were overreacting? I don't think I would.

[larrymcg421]

Locking down 4 square miles is easier said than done.

The difficulty of the task doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. If they had tried to do something (more than an e-mail) I think there would be much less criticism. That being said, I am witholding my own criticism until I know the full details regarding the facts and the timeline.

[Easy Mac]

well, they said they thought he likely left, so aside from not letting anyone out for the next week and hiding the girl away, I'm not sure what they could have done.

[larrymcg421]

well, they said they thought he likely left, so aside from not letting anyone out for the next week and hiding the girl away, I'm not sure what they could have done.

As I posted above, I'm waiting to see when or if they knew he was looking for his girlfriend. If they knew this, I think it would be idiotic to assume he would not try and return.

And how did they know he fled the campus. Did someone follow him to the exit? The argument against a lockdown is that it's such a big area, so it seems like plenty of places he could flee to without even leaving the campus.

[RPI-Fan]

Very sorry and upsetting to read and hear what happened.

For what it's worth, a couple weeks ago here, a badly traumatized body was found in the stairwell of an academic building at around 10am. Some people in the building told the campus police they heard something like gunshots. By about 12:30pm, the police had locked down the campus (and in particular the building where the body was found). SWAT teams stormed the building and classrooms and locked those people down at gunpoint for a couple of hours.

Around 3pm in the afternoon, they determined the death was a suicide (the guy had jumped from the 9th floor of an internal stairwell). The next couple of days, a lot of people (myself included) were extremely mad at the way the event was handled.

This puts things in perspective a little bit. While there was griping about the handling of the event at my school, it was nothing more than that, and certainly nothing like the complaints people will have about VT's handling.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wasn't there one of the reports earlier that mentioned that the dorms could be locked down electronically but that no such system existed for the classroom buildings? If that's the case, although I'm generally a proponent of lockdowns in situations like this, I'm not really sure there's any way they could have managed one. I'd be surprised if there were enough campus security available to put someone on every door of every building.

Meanwhile, the circumstances of trying to notify everyone who was inbound to somewhere on the campus at that time of day (the figure I've seen is 11,000 people) also presents some logistical nightmares, to the degree that it might be a logistical impossibility. At that point, I can see an argument being made that it was more reasonable to believe they would be safer in classrooms than milling around on campus with nowhere to go.

The one big problem I see for the university is the email that warned people to stay away from windows & such. The timing of that warning & the whole timeline is going to be critical. If that warning came before the shootings in the classroom building (I can't seem to tell) then I would have to think the liability for the school is going to be enormous & the taxpayers of Virginia are going to be paying claims for a very very long time to come.

[Peregrine]

Jesus, I was asleep all day. This is horrible, what a terrible day for everyone at VT to go through.

[King of New York]

well, they said they thought he likely left, so aside from not letting anyone out for the next week and hiding the girl away, I'm not sure what they could have done.

They could have cancelled classes for a day and kept people off campus who didn't absolutely need to be on campus, thereby giving themselves more time to determine the actual nature of the situation, while depriving the shooter of easy targets (classrooms packed full of students.)

I say this in sorrow rather than in anger--if I were the president of VT, I would have made the same mistake, I think. :( But one of the lessons of 9/11 was: if you see a plane hit the tower next to you, you really should evacuate your own tower, even if nothing has happened to you yet. Once things start going bad, they can quickly go very bad in ways we never before imagined, so steering people away from the scene of trouble is the smart thing to do.

[King of New York]

Meanwhile, the circumstances of trying to notify everyone who was inbound to somewhere on the campus at that time of day (the figure I've seen is 11,000 people) also presents some logistical nightmares, to the degree that it might be a logistical impossibility. At that point, I can see an argument being made that it was more reasonable to believe they would be safer in classrooms than milling around on campus with nowhere to go.

Point taken--but how many entrances are there to Virginia Tech? I'm sure there are several, but presumably some are much more used than others--I would expect that Blacksburg and VT would have enough police to put someone at each entrance, or at least each main entrance, by 8 or 8:30, turning everyone around so those folks do not get onto campus.

[RPI-Fan]

They could have cancelled classes for a day and kept people off campus who didn't absolutely need to be on campus, thereby giving themselves more time to determine the actual nature of the situation, while depriving the shooter of easy targets (classrooms packed full of students.)

I say this in sorrow rather than in anger--if I were the president of VT, I would have made the same mistake, I think. :( But one of the lessons of 9/11 was: if you see a plane hit the tower next to you, you really should evacuate your own tower, even if nothing has happened to you yet. Once things start going bad, they can quickly go very bad in ways we never before imagined, so steering people away from the scene of trouble is the smart thing to do.

Like I've said in a post above, an eerily similar incident (at least in the way it started) happened at my school a couple weeks ago, and it took about 3 hours to get a grip on things and lock down the campus. (2 hours to lock down the building of interest)

[wade moore]

I think the problem is trying to apply logic to a completely illogical situation.

QFT.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Point taken--but how many entrances are there to Virginia Tech? I'm sure there are several, but presumably some are much more used than others--I would expect that Blacksburg and VT would have enough police to put someone at each entrance, or at least each main entrance, by 8 or 8:30, turning everyone around so those folks do not get onto campus.

I've never been on campus (or even to Blacksburg) but from the looks of this map, I'm not at all certain it would have been that easy.
http://198.82.160.236/where_we_are/maps/documents/vt_main_map.pdf

And given that the 911 call for the first shooting didn't come in until 7:15am,
I can't see any way on earth they could have secured the entrances before they had significant amounts of people on campus.

[bob]

Just in case anyone missed it, from the last press conference, they stated that the shooter in the classrooms was not the person they suspected in the first shooting, and that "person of interest" was speaking with police at the time of the second shooting. That guy has been released, but remains a "person of interest".

They are waiting on ballistics to determine if the two shootings are related.

[ShaneTheMaster]

Just in case anyone missed it, from the last press conference, they stated that the shooter in the classrooms was not the person they suspected in the first shooting, and that "person of interest" was speaking with police at the time of the second shooting. That guy has been released, but remains a "person of interest".

They are waiting on ballistics to determine if the two shootings are related.

Yea, I am wondering if the first shooting was intended as a diversion so that the second one could take place.

[wade moore]

Just in case anyone missed it, from the last press conference, they stated that the shooter in the classrooms was not the person they suspected in the first shooting, and that "person of interest" was speaking with police at the time of the second shooting. That guy has been released, but remains a "person of interest".

They are waiting on ballistics to determine if the two shootings are related.

So essentially the person they thought was the shooter was in custody?

I can see why the didn't lock-down if that was the case.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Meanwhile, various talking heads on various news shows in the 9 o'clock hour (including Dr. Phil on Larry King Live) basically said that violent video games/violent media culture was the root cause of incidents like today.

[King of New York]

I'm trying to figure out how VT could both 1) not lockdown the campus because they thought the shooter had left campus, and 2) not lockdown the campus because they were questioning a guy whom they believed to be the first shooter. Either one of those reasons is plausible, but they cannot both be true.

[Buccaneer]

Meanwhile, various talking heads on various news shows in the 9 o'clock hour (including Dr. Phil on Larry King Live) basically said that violent video games/violent media culture was the root cause of incidents like today.

I didn't realize video games gives you feelings of humiliation, jealousy, hatred and being jilted?

[wade moore]

Meanwhile, various talking heads on various news shows in the 9 o'clock hour (including Dr. Phil on Larry King Live) basically said that violent video games/violent media culture was the root cause of incidents like today.

I mentioned Jack Thompson earlier in this thread and how "shockingly" when I turned from CNN after several hours there to Fox News one of the first things I hear is his moronic self being interviewed.

I fully expect that any sign he played any video game, whether it be guitar hero or Grand Theft Auto to be heavily blamed for this.

As a sociology "buff" (what I majored in in high-school) it's pretty easy to realize that at this stage of culture there's now ay you could make any scientifically significant statement about the ties of video games to these incidents.

What I mean is - good luck finding a male in college that hasn't played a violent video game.

[cartman]

I'm trying to figure out how VT could both 1) not lockdown the campus because they thought the shooter had left campus, and 2) not lockdown the campus because they were questioning a guy whom they believed to be the first shooter. Either one of those reasons is plausible, but they cannot both be true.

A plausible scenario combining those two is that they thought he was taken into custody shortly after leaving campus.

[wade moore]

I'm trying to figure out how VT could both 1) not lockdown the campus because they thought the shooter had left campus, and 2) not lockdown the campus because they were questioning a guy whom they believed to be the first shooter. Either one of those reasons is plausible, but they cannot both be true.

I'm pretty confused on that one too. I didn't hear the later press conference, so it seems weird to me too. The best I can figure is in the earlier press conference they didn't want to release about this other guy.

Idano, makes no sense to me.

[wade moore]

Side Note - I need to be smart and not go to other boards besides this one to see discussion of this issue.

Good god people are idiots.

[Rizon]

Meanwhile, various talking heads on various news shows in the 9 o'clock hour (including Dr. Phil on Larry King Live) basically said that violent video games/violent media culture was the root cause of incidents like today.

Yeah, that Dr. Phil / Larry King piece was atrocious. King, being at least 130 years old, should probably just hang it up. His questions during his segment were about as bad as they come (or maybe someone else wrote them, and that someone should probably not have that type of job). Wolf Blitzer earlier in the day ... wow, just terrible (as usual).

I also listened to a bit of Savage on accident this afternoon, and dude was yacking about how the police were lying about the gunman being shot in the head, and other really off-the-wall-Bush-personally-flew-planes-into-the-twin-towers type of stuff.

We'll definitely see GTA getting blamed for this, just as Doom has been blamed in the past and probably Pac-Man before that.

[sabotai]

Meanwhile, various talking heads on various news shows in the 9 o'clock hour (including Dr. Phil on Larry King Live) basically said that violent video games/violent media culture was the root cause of incidents like today.

Don't forget gun control. I saw that talked about on Scarborough as well.

[BrianD]

Like usual, all the people with political agendas are going to push them in light of this tragedy and fingers are going to be pointed everywhere. At this point, this story is probably about everything except the victims and the shooter(s). Sad that we can go from tragedy to political capital so quickly.

[wade moore]

Like usual, all the people with political agendas are going to push them in light of this tragedy and fingers are going to be pointed everywhere. At this point, this story is probably about everything except the victims and the shooter(s). Sad that we can go from tragedy to political capital so quickly.

Agreed. I knew it would happen, but a small part of me hoped that it would take a little longer than this.

[VPI97]

What I've heard via word of mouth (Montgomery Co. Deputy -> my dad -> me) is that they had an eyewitness to the first shooting who described a white guy fleeing the scene and driving off in his car. Blacksburg P.D. picked the guy up and was questioning him when the second shooting occurred. Dunno if he's still a suspect or if it's going to end up being the same guy as the Norris shootings...I guess the ballistics report will be the deciding factor on that.

[BrianD]

Agreed. I knew it would happen, but a small part of me hoped that it would take a little longer than this.

It is probably a function of the fact that we have a ton of news stations and they don't have a whole lot to talk about yet while the details are sorted out. About the only thing they can do is make up a bunch of unrelated crap and get all of the "experts" talking...as if anyone could be an expert on a situation like this.

[JonInMiddleGA]

What I mean is - good luck finding a male in college that hasn't played a violent video game.

But in saying that (which I agree with) you're sort of helping make their point regardless of whether there's any causation. What was the phrase Dr. Phil used on King tonight? Something to the effect of "it's obvious that there's a connection". If you can use that sort of wording effectively enough, proof won't be required for the majority of people to agree.

[wade moore]

But in saying that (which I agree with) you're sort of helping make their point regardless of whether there's any causation. What was the phrase Dr. Phil used on King tonight? Something to the effect of "it's obvious that there's a connection". If you can use that sort of wording effectively enough, proof won't be required for the majority of people to agree.

Can't disagree with you there. I have no doubt that they will be pretty successful in convincing a decent part of the population of the fact.

But from anyone that looks at it objectively the causation just isn't there and i know that in my head.

As I like to say in these situations (just like back when D&D was being blamed for stuff and god knows what 50 years ago.. elvis's hips or something?) - Psychos are psychos. These things do not make them psychos. There are countless numbers of perfectly sane people doing these things that don't go crazy and kill people.

Anyway, I know I'm preaching to the choir. I just feel like at this stage saying it was video games for a 20 year old male college student is as valid as saying that driving a car causes this.

[wade moore]

Dola - and don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from.

And the fact that odds are he played violent games makes it so that they feel much safer pulling that card earlier and earlier in these situations.

[cougarfreak]

Sad, sad situation all the way around. Hindsight is 20/20 guys, if a crazed idiot hellbent on killing people is running around on campus, there's not really a whole hell of alot you can do. Short of posting armed guards around, it's damn near impossible to come up with a solution. Even if there is a lockdown, who's to say that doesn't make the situation worse, and lock kids in a building with this maniac? I teach in a school, and this is obviously a horrible nightmare for someone like me, but really, there is no solution. We have lockdown procedures.........but I can tell you, it's almost impossible to get all doors secured and locked. We have one police officer in the building for 1700 students, there's no way he can cover all the area. It's just a bad deal all the way around.

[sabotai]

But in saying that (which I agree with) you're sort of helping make their point regardless of whether there's any causation. What was the phrase Dr. Phil used on King tonight? Something to the effect of "it's obvious that there's a connection". If you can use that sort of wording effectively enough, proof won't be required for the majority of people to agree.

If we tried hard enough, I bet we could get a good number of people believing that since all these shootings happen on school campuses that schools are the cause of the shootings. I mean, if this type of thing is always happening at schools, there's got to be something about schools that causes it, right? It's so obvious.

[wade moore]

If we tried hard enough, I bet we could get a good number of people believing that since all these shootings happen on school campuses that schools are the cause of the shootings. I mean, if this type of thing is always happening at schools, there's got to be something about schools that causes it, right? It's so obvious.

How about this one..

All of these incidents are covered heavily by the media. They show the glory that these people get, these poor, unnoticed, dejected kids.

Hmmmm... I might be onto something here - I wonder if one of the news channels will let me talk about it?!

[JonInMiddleGA]

I wonder if one of the news channels will let me talk about it?!

Maybe. That point (or at least the specific point about the potential incitement of constantly referring to this as "a record") was mentioned by one of the talking heads on FNC earlier.

[wade moore]

Maybe. That point (or at least the specific point about the potential incitement of constantly referring to this as "a record") was mentioned by one of the talking heads on FNC earlier.

Good. While I won't claim that people are doing this because of media, I certainly think that the media is as responsible - and likely more responsible - than video games, movies, etc for these large scale violent actions.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Sad sad news. Until I hear more, a lot more, I'm not placing any blame of looking to place it (except on the shooter).

When I first heard about the number of fatalities, I assumed there was an assault rifle of some sort involved (which kind of made me mad because although I am ok with hanguns and rifles, I am anti-assault rifle for just these types of things). But apparently, it looks like the shooter had handguns so I am not so sure the gun control guys got much of an argument.

And as for video games, I've always looked at it this way. If it turns out the shooter played them, isn't the more rational connection one that BECAUSE he WAS ALREADY a violent person, he was attracted to playing such games AND NOT that he was basically a nonviolent person who was converted to violence by a video game? And if I am right, aren't violent video games a good thing because it might actually prevent shootings because a potentiall violent person may get it out of their system by playing the game only?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Good. While I won't claim that people are doing this because of media, I certainly think that the media is as responsible - and likely more responsible - than video games, movies, etc for these large scale violent actions.

Of course, now we'll find out that the shooter was a Luddite who spoke no English & blow both theories out of the water ;)

[wade moore]

Of course, now we'll find out that the shooter was a Luddite who spoke no English & blow both theories out of the water ;)

Well, then we can shift to the ever-popular "planted by a foreign nation" theory that I'm seeing on other boards now...

Ugh...

Every now and then my optimistic view of the world I live in just gets beaten to hell...

[Groundhog]

But apparently, it looks like the shooter had handguns so I am not so sure the gun control guys got much of an argument.

See, to me that says that maybe people shouldn't have handguns either.

[wade moore]

Sad sad news. Until I hear more, a lot more, I'm not placing any blame of looking to place it (except on the shooter).

Despite me talking about it everything a lot here (mostly to settly myself and talk this out for my own sanity here amongst "friends") - I think this is a crucial point.

I do not like the attacks already being launched at the administration, police, etc, etc.. I think let's deal with the travesty, the families, the students who are probably scared, etc..

There will be a time and a place to fully understand what happened, where mistakes were made, and to educated all college administrations on better ways to handle these issues in the future.

That time is not today, or probably the next few days. The administration I think needs to be stronger in this and make this their key message. Get the facts out and then focus on the grieving process, rather than even entertaining this other garbage.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well, then we can shift to the ever-popular "planted by a foreign nation" theory that I'm seeing on other boards now...


It did cross my mind earlier how much different I believe the reaction would have been if initial reports had referred to the shooter as Middle Eastern instead of Asian.

[Izulde]

Speaking from a somewhat selfish standpoint here, I'm paranoid that it's going to come out that whoever did the shooting had some kind of mental illness, whether bipolar disorder or some other affliction.

As if overcoming the stigma wasn't hard enough in this country, incidents like this only reinforce the negative public perception and encourage secrecy and hiding from potential or current employers, schools, etc.

[wade moore]

It did cross my mind earlier how much different I believe the reaction would have been if initial reports had referred to the shooter as Middle Eastern instead of Asian.

Yup. Some West Coast paper is reporting that he was on a student Visa from China (seems very unconfirmed from what I can tell) and folks on some other boards are running with that almost as badly as if it was a Middle Eastern man. But, the mass-hysteria if they said Middle Eastern would have been very ugly.

Speaking from a somewhat selfish standpoint here, I'm paranoid that it's going to come out that whoever did the shooting had some kind of mental illness, whether bipolar disorder or some other affliction.

As if overcoming the stigma wasn't hard enough in this country, incidents like this only reinforce the negative public perception and encourage secrecy and hiding from potential or current employers, schools, etc.


Another good point.

Meh.

[JonInMiddleGA]

First victim I've seen identified so far. The RA killed in the first shooting was a Georgian, and member of the Hokies marching band.

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/stories/2007/04/16/0417studentkilled.html

[wade moore]

First victim I've seen identified so far. The RA killed in the first shooting was a Georgian, and member of the Hokies marching band.

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/stories/2007/04/16/0417studentkilled.html



Clark, who had been at the school since 2002, had completed his coursework and was set to walk across the graduation stage in May with bachelor's degrees in biology and English, his twin brother said Monday night.

Ugh, ugh, ugh...

[Buccaneer]

Speaking from a somewhat selfish standpoint here, I'm paranoid that it's going to come out that whoever did the shooting had some kind of mental illness, whether bipolar disorder or some other affliction.

As if overcoming the stigma wasn't hard enough in this country, incidents like this only reinforce the negative public perception and encourage secrecy and hiding from potential or current employers, schools, etc.

Every single publicized violent incident has always pointed to something, whether mental illness or more likely, abuse as a child or some other thing that one can point to as to the root of the problem. In this case, insecurity manifesting itself into a relationship psychosis may be blamed. Problem is, those are all symptoms but we like to have easy answers instead.

[Izulde]

Every single publicized violent incident has always pointed to something, whether mental illness or more likely, abuse as a child or some other thing that one can point to as to the root of the problem. In this case, insecurity manifesting itself into a relationship psychosis may be blamed. Problem is, those are all symptoms but we like to have easy answers instead.

True, but your average person doesn't have the awareness needed to recognize that, at least in my opinion. They like to reduce things to simple terms like soandso was fillinblank, and fillinblank was what made them do that.

It does however make you realize just what kind of ripple effects go on from these things that most people don't even recognize or think about.

[GoldenEagle]

My question is if they picked up the guy believed to be responsible for the first shooting, then why do they no longer have him in custody?

My co-worker had a good theory if they the two shootings were in fact done by two people. Maybe the second guy who did the shooting, was waiting until April 20th to do the killings. But he decided that with the shooting this morning, he might not have the chance with extra police, etc. So he decided to go ahead and do it today while he had the chance. I know it is speculation, but it makes sense if the shootings are separate incidents.

[Easy Mac]

So have they found the alleged girl yet? I would think that would put to rest the second shooter theories or at least shine some light on the whole thing.

[stevew]

So have they found the alleged girl yet? I would think that would put to rest the second shooter theories or at least shine some light on the whole thing.

Multiple reports seem to suggest that she was killed with the RA at 745.

[Easy Mac]

Also passed:

Emily Hilscher (http://fredericksburg.com/News/Web/2007/042007/0416techid)
Jamie Bishop
Kevin Granata
Henry Lee
Ryan Clark
Leslie Sherman
Dr. Give. Loganathan
Juan Ortiz
Maxine Turner
Reema Samaha
Mary Read
Liviu Lubrescu

whats really weird, for lack of a better term, is to see these kids facebook pages just sitting there, with their pictures seeming so happy.

Sad, great story about the Professor Lubrescu
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-students0416,0,803874.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines

[stevew]

Multiple reports seem to suggest that she was killed with the RA at 745.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=448955&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

[sabotai]

whats really weird, for lack of a better term, is to see these kids facebook pages just sitting there, with their pictures seeming so happy.

Worse is seeing comments left on their facebook/myspace/what-have-you from their friends earlier in the day asking for them to call and if they're ok.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

See, to me that says that maybe people shouldn't have handguns either.

Yeah, but we're past the point of no return on those, I think. It's the mass killing machines I am more worried about. To put in context, if this shooter had an assault rifle, maybe we're talking a hundred dead.

Here's hoping the NRA and Charlton Heston decide not to have their next meeting in Blacksburg.

[bob]

What I've heard via word of mouth (Montgomery Co. Deputy -> my dad -> me) is that they had an eyewitness to the first shooting who described a white guy fleeing the scene and driving off in his car. Blacksburg P.D. picked the guy up and was questioning him when the second shooting occurred. Dunno if he's still a suspect or if it's going to end up being the same guy as the Norris shootings...I guess the ballistics report will be the deciding factor on that.

According to someone on Fox last night (5 of them were on screen, and i was looking away so i'm not sure who was talking) local police were looking for a white male with greasy hair driving a black truck with farm plates in the first shooting. This person was found and was being talked to at the time of the second shooting. Seems like they are basically just waiting for the ballistics to confirm he was not involved because they keep saying they don't think there was a second shooter involved yesterday.

[Qwikshot]

This just reminds me of this past weekend's "Soprano's" episode, where the orderly caring for Johnny Sack had been a doctor prior to being imprisoned. He had killed his wife that he had suspected had been cheating on him, and then her sister who happened to be visiting at the time, and then the mailman.

I guess it was the stone cold delivery of this line after confessing he had killed the mailman

"At this point I had to fully commit."

I laughed at it then because it was just so deadpan, but I'm guessing this guy at VT had the same mentality (if it is just one shooter).

[Subby]

According to the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/17/AR2007041700456.html?hpid=topnews), the shooter was a student and is from Fairfax Co., VA (the same county where a number of fofcers, including myself, live).

[Subby]

Victims of Shootings at Virginia Tech Remembered
By The Associated Press

Tuesday, April 17, 2007; 7:34 AM

Vignettes of some of the victims of the Virginia Tech shooting rampage:
Liviu Librescu (http://www.esm.vt.edu/php/person.php?id=10023), 76, was known for his research, but his son said he will be remembered as a hero.

The Israeli lecturer taught at Virginia Tech for 20 years and was internationally known for his work in aeronautical engineering.
"His research has enabled better aircraft, superior composite materials, and more robust aerospace structures," said Ishwar K. Puri, the head of the engineering science and mechanics department.
Librescu's son, Joe, said his father's students sent e-mails detailing how the professor saved their lives by blocking the doorway of his classroom from the approaching gunman before he was fatally shot.
--
Kevin Granata (http://www.esm.vt.edu/php/person.php?id=10012), a professor of engineering science and mechanics, served in the military and later conducted orthopedic research in hospitals before coming to Virginia Tech, where he and his students researched muscle and reflex response and robotics.
Puri called Granata one of the top five biomechanics researchers in the country working on movement dynamics in cerebral palsy.
Engineering professor Demetri P. Telionis said Granata was successful, but also kind.
"With so many research projects and graduate students, he still found time to spend with his family and he coached his children in many sports and extracurricular activities," Telionis said. "He was a wonderful family man. We will all miss him dearly."
--
Ryan Clark (http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/latest/lat_041607_TechStudent.shtml) was called "Stack" by his friends, many of whom he met as a resident assistant at Ambler Johnson Hall, where the first shootings took place, and as a member of the Marching Virginians band.
Clark, 22 of Martinez, Ga., just outside of Augusta, was a fifth-year student working toward degrees in biology and English.
Gregory Walton, 25, learned his friend was among the dead from an ambulance driver.
"He was just one of the greatest people you could possibly know," Walton said, fighting tears. "He was always smiling, always laughing. I don't think I ever saw him mad in the five years I knew him."
--
G.V. Loganathan (http://www.vwrrc.vt.edu/sdwi/loganathan_profile.asp) was born in the southern Indian city of Chennai and had been a civil and environmental engineering professor at Virginia Tech since 1982.
Loganathan, 51, won several awards for excellence in teaching, had served on the faculty senate and was an adviser to about 75 undergraduate students.
"We all feel like we have had an electric shock, we do not know what to do," his brother G.V. Palanivel told the NDTV news channel from the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu. "He has been a driving force for all of us, the guiding force."

[Toddzilla]

I'm not trying to be a monday morning quarterback, or second guess the Tech Police, but after a shooting in which the gunman was clearly at-large, how in the world do you not cancel classes and clear the campus?

Too many students?
Too big of a campus?
Too many people in-route?

And you do nothing? With a known killer on the loose?

Sigh.

Todd Zilla
VPI&SU
Class of 1988

[Toddzilla]

According to someone on Fox last night (5 of them were on screen, and i was looking away so i'm not sure who was talking) local police were looking for a white male with greasy hair driving a black truck with farm plates in the first shooting. This person was found and was being talked to at the time of the second shooting. Seems like they are basically just waiting for the ballistics to confirm he was not involved because they keep saying they don't think there was a second shooter involved yesterday.I think the fact that the police never once mentioned or even hinted at the fact there may have been a second shooter at-large, or that they were actively searching for another gunman gave away the fact that they were convinced it was one person the whole time.

[molson]

And you do nothing? With a known killer on the loose?


This has been discussed quite a bit in this thread, and people have different opinions.

Personally, I don't see how any of the proposed lockdowns/clearing campuses/mass unlawful detentions of civilians do a damn thing when you have someone running around in a free society willing to kill. People want to live terrified - what's the point? Murders happen all the time, unfortunately and only in the very smallest number of these incidents do things escalate. If someone got shot in a neighboring apartment complex, and the shooter got away, I sure as hell wouldn't stand for the police detaining me in my apartment.

If we divided the country in two, and one half had metal detectors at every dorm and educational building, massive lockdown policies at any hint of violence, police power to indefinitely detain innocent civilians to "sort out police matters" - I'd surly live in the other half (and I'm not convinced in the slightest that my half would have a lower crime rate). And I'm 100% sure we'd all be hell of a lot happier.

[bob]

More details from another press conference.

- Classroom shooter ID'd as a 23 year old S. Korean English major, resident alien status, that lived on campus. Name was given but i didn't catch it.
- Guns found were a 9MM and a .22.
- One of guns used at the classroom's was the one used in the dorm shooting. However, they don't have evidence proving classroom shooter was the dorm shooter. They don't think there was a second shooter, but want to prove it rather than assume it.
- They are still talking to the other person of interest originally detained about the first shooting to see if he was involved.
- No evidence that the recent bomb threats were involved in this (some speculated it might have been done to test police response times).

As far as the school goes:
- Classes canceled for remainder of the week.
- Norris Hall closed the remainder of the semester.

[stevew]

April 17, 2007 — Cho Hui Seung, a resident alien of the United States, a South Korean national and a Virginia Tech senior has been identified as the gunman in the shootings that left 33 people dead on the Virginia Tech campus Monday, ABC News has learned.

The student killed two people in a dorm room, returned to his own dorm room where he re-armed and left a "disturbing note" before entering a classroom building on the other side of campus to continue his rampage, sources said.

Cho's identitiy has been confirmed with a positive fingerprint match on the guns used in the rampage and with immigration materials. It is believed that he was the shooter in both incidents yesterday. Sources say Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol, sources said. Witnesses had also told authorities that the shooter was carrying a backpack. Sections of chain similar to those used to lock the main doors at Norris Hall, the site of the second shooting that left 31 dead, were also found inside a Virginia Tech dormitory, sources confirmed to ABC News.

In all, the massacre at Virginia Tech left 33 people dead — including Cho himself — in the worst shooting in modern American history.

President Charles Steger told "Good Morning America's" Diane Sawyer that police were still investigating the possibility of a second shooter, and said authorities had already interviewed one "person of interest."

"There may be others," said Steger, who will join the Virginia Tech chief of police at a press conference Tuesday morning. "We just don't know."

Steger also said that authorities hoped to have ballistics evidence to release that would confirm a connection between the two shootings.

Watch live coverage of the press conference on ABC News Now.

In a press conference Monday night, the university president, who continues to defend the way the school responded the dormitory shooting that began the day of campus bloodshed, gave a detailed timeline of the morning's tragic events.

He said a 911 call reporting a shooting at a dormitory was made at approximately 7:15 a.m. While police were trying to assess what they first believed was a domestic dispute, they received a second 911 call, nearly two and a half hours later, that reported shootings on the opposite side of campus. According to the Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum, officials had not definitively linked the two shootings as of Monday night.

Full coverage continues on "Good Morning America" and "World News With Charles Gibson" an ABC network special Tuesday at 10 p.m. EDT

Two guns were recovered, a 9 mm pistol and a .22-caliber pistol.

Flinchum said they have ruled out the possibility of a murder-suicide in the first shooting at West Ambler Johnston Hall. Ryan "Stack" Clark, a member of the school's marching band, the Marching Virginians, and a student resident assistant, was killed there by a shot in the neck. The second victim in the dorm shooting was a female.

Last night, investigators also had a preliminary identification of the shooter involved in the Norris Hall rampage.

When asked to describe the scene at Norris Hall, where the second shooting took place, Flinchum called it "one of the worst things I've seen in my life."

While Flinchum would not name any of the victims, he did say that university staff members were among the dead.

There have been, however, at least 15 shooting victims identified in press accounts, including four professors and 11 students.

Some students question why administrators did not cancel classes after the first shooting, and why it took more than two hours to inform the university community via e-mail about the first incident.

[Toddzilla]

Personally, I don't see how any of the proposed lockdowns/clearing campuses/mass unlawful detentions of civilians do a damn thing when you have someone running around in a free society willing to kill. Nope, you're exactly right. However, I've got to believe that when there is a shooter on the loose, fewer people on campus is better than more people.

[Drake]

More people on campus increase the odds that any one person won't be shot. How's that? :)

[Honolulu_Blue]

So begins the "lockdown" paranoia. . .

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070417/NEWS03/70417015

Brief Cranbrook lockdown after report of man wearing women’s clothing


April 17, 2007
By EMILIA ASKARI
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Classes at Cranbrook went on as normal this morning after a brief lockdown, triggered by an allegation of a man wearing women’s clothing on the Bloomfield Hills campus.

A mother who was dropping off a student in the parking lot told authorities that she saw a 6-foot-tall man wearing a blonde wig, high heels, a skirt and a black coat.

“She thought it was kind of strange, so she called police,” said Bloomfield Hills Detective Lt. Paul J. Myszenski.

Classrooms were locked for about an hour and a half while police searched the campus. They found nothing suspicious.

“In the wake of what happened yesterday in Virginia, it’s better to be safe than sorry. It’s better to call us than have an oh, whoops,” Myszenski said.

In a news release, the school said, "Cranbrook Schools went into lockdown mode shortly after 8 a.m., when an unidentified person was spotted on the campus of Cranbrook Schools. Cranbrook contacted Bloomfield Hills police and followed its standard lockdown procedures. At 9:20 a.m., the lockdown was lifted and the students are resuming their daily schedules as planned."

Helicopters circled the campus and news media waited outside the campus gates during the search.

Michelle Kim of Birmingham had been waiting outside the Kingswood part of the campus to pick up her daughter since 8:40 a.m. “I was very, very worried about it because of what happened yesterday.”

When asked whether the alleged incident is illegal, Myszenski said no, but, “If you’re a man, you don’t hang around a school dressd as a woman."

“What kind of crime did this person commit? A fashion crime.”

[molson]

More people on campus increase the odds that any one person won't be shot. How's that? :)

And evacuating people also increases the odds that the killer is flushed out, putting the community at risk.

And putting people in lockdown increases the chance of death if there's a fire. (Unlikely, but so is what happened yesterday).

I can't wait for the victims to be exploited by the media in fueling their crusade against VT.

[molson]

So begins the "lockdown" paranoia. . .



It will become the new fire drill - a routine part of dorm life that no one takes seriously and causes no one to take extra precautions.

[JPhillips]

There's one big question that need answering from the administration.

Was there a security plan in place for an unknown violent assailant on the loose? If so, what training was done with campus and local police?

Given the UT shootings, the rash of HS shootings in the late nineties, and the fact that a gunman was on campus last year it's incredible that the response to this event was as disorganized as it was. There were a number of reasonable steps that should have happened as soon as they suspected a shooter was on the loose.

Cancel classes.

Encourage all students to go to their dorms because a violent criminal may be on the loose.

If possible put the dorms on keycard activation. An RA can check for persons who don't have their keycard.

Put staff in commuter lots to inform students that classes are canceled.

In coordination with local police and sheriff's department begin patrolling the campus.

You don't need to have a complete lockdown to increase safety. Doing nothing and not informing the student population was completely irresponsible.

[King of New York]

There's nothing they could have done to stop this guy completely, but they didn't have to make things easier for him by sending out the email notification some two hours after the initial shootings, and by presenting him with a target-rich environment of packed classrooms filled with people who seem to have had no inkling of what had happened earlier, because some or all of those classes presumably began after the email warning went out.

What was to be gained by not cancelling classes? Mass murderers can kill many more people if their targets are concentrated rather than dispersed, and I think that cancelling classes is completely consistent with a healthy respect for civili liberties.

[Maple Leafs]

Encourage all students to go to their dorms because a violent criminal may be on the loose.
The first shooting happened at a dorm. Seems odd to send the students back to their dorms as a safety precaution, no?

[BrianD]

You don't need to have a complete lockdown to increase safety. Doing nothing and not informing the student population was completely irresponsible.

Even when they had the shooter (so they thought) in custody?

[Toddzilla]

The first shooting happened at a dorm. Seems odd to send the students back to their dorms as a safety precaution, no?Not when you're behind a locked door. Much safer than sitting in a classroom with no cover and no way to keep someone out.

[molson]

The first shooting happened at a dorm. Seems odd to send the students back to their dorms as a safety precaution, no?

Not to mention that the shooter was a dorm resident. And you can only lock yourself in your room so long - if you want to use a bathroom, for example.

A lot of people's suggestions sound reasonable enough. But I don't know how you notify 15k+ people in 2 hours on limited information, or what good that does. What you start a panic and someone's killed in a car accident as a result?

The world's a dangerous place, always has been. That's not a problem that can be solved. There is an enormous amount of on-campus violence every year across the country. That’s not a reason to treat our campuses like military bases.

[King of New York]

Even when they had the shooter (so they thought) in custody?

If they had had this guy under arrest and charged, I would agree with you--an arrest suggests that they have strong evidence indiciating guilt. But, as I understand it, they were just questioning him. Ruling out other possibilities at a preliminary stage of an investigation is always a mistake.

[King of New York]

Molson, not all risks are equally probable, and to treat all risks as equally probable (and therefore equally unavoidable) is not logical. The likelihood that if you cancel classes, students are going to start crashing their cars into one another and die as a result, or that during a lockdown, a student is going to be unable to go to the bathroom and dies of a burst bladder as a result, is vastly smaller than the likelihood of an armed gunman on the loose killing again in the vicinity of the original killings.

[molson]

Molson, not all risks are equally probable, and to treat all risks as equally probable (and therefore equally unavoidable) is not logical. The likelihood that if you cancel classes, students are going to start crashing their cars into one another and die as a result, or that during a lockdown, a student is going to be unable to go to the bathroom and dies of a burst bladder as a result, is vastly smaller than the likelihood of an armed gunman on the loose killing again in the vicinity of the original killings.

I don't know, the odds of a violent domestic dispute claiming 30+ lives was exactly 0% prior to yesterday.

[bob]

At this point, I wonder how VT is affected long term by this. Lots of students are angry about how this was handled, as well as being upset that this happened in addition to the incident at the beginning of the year, the bomb threats, etc. And even though this is random and could have happened at any campus, I can imagine parents not wanting their kids to go there out of fear.

I imagine lots will be ready to transfer because of the difficult memory of things there. I can't imagine going to a class in that building in the future.

[Icy]

I'm very sorry for the victims and specially their famillies, they must be living their worst nightmare right now.

One thing i heard today in Spanish news and also read in this thread is that the VT staff used an email as way of communicating about the incident and danger and it's really weird to me so i guess i didn't understand it well.

An email for an emergency?? so if they have a fire emergency, what would they do? send a regular mail or publish it on the next day newspapers? I can't think on an email in my top ten fast ways of telling somebody about an emergency. Don't they have a speaker system? sound and visual alarm system? Can't at least the teachers be notified so they can lock their classrooms?

Maybe it's that students there are reading emails every 5 minutes so it was the best way of telling them, but i doubt it.

[Drake]

It will become the new fire drill - a routine part of dorm life that no one takes seriously and causes no one to take extra precautions.

They've been doing these (armed intruder drills) at my kids' schools since shortly after Columbine. Granted, those are elementary/middle schools rather than college campuses.

[bob]

Can't at least the teachers be notified so they can lock their classrooms?

Well, another issue was that most of the rooms didn't have locks on the door.

[cthomer5000]

I'm very sorry for the victims and specially their famillies, they must be living their worst nightmare right now.

One thing i heard today in Spanish news and also read in this thread is that the VT staff used an email as way of communicating about the incident and danger and it's really weird to me so i guess i didn't understand it well.

An email for an emergency?? so if they have a fire emergency, what would they do? send a regular mail or publish it on the next day newspapers? I can't think on an email in my top ten fast ways of telling somebody about an emergency. Don't they have a speaker system? sound and visual alarm system? Can't at least the teachers be notified so they can lock their classrooms?

Maybe it's that students there are reading emails every 5 minutes so it was the best way of telling them, but i doubt it.

Do we know that it was email and email only? Or was it email in addition to?

[King of New York]

I don't know, the odds of a violent domestic dispute claiming 30+ lives was exactly 0% prior to yesterday.

The Texas bell tower sniper started out by killing his mother and wife, I believe, and then decided to take out random strangers. :(

(FWIW: I'm an ACLU-type myself, so I am sympathetic to your positions!)

[Galaril]

this blog is the top blog run by expats in korea and has been running some interesting info on the killer.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/

[Fighter of Foo]

There's one big question that need answering from the administration.

Was there a security plan in place for an unknown violent assailant on the loose?

I'm going to guess no, and at the risk of being flamed, why the fcck would they? Seriously?

This question is like asking if the army has a plan for dealing with specific types of bullets.

You prepare for emergencies and disasters. Anything more specific and it quickly becomes pointless (see airport security).

[molson]

this blog is the top blog run by expats in korea and has been running some interesting info on the killer.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/

So he apparently has lived in the US since he was 3.

[Young Drachma]

Worse is seeing comments left on their facebook/myspace/what-have-you from their friends earlier in the day asking for them to call and if they're ok.

Yeah. Last year, when a girl was murdered here, you could still her facebook page for a while and it was a little weird -- not unusual or bad, but weird -- because people turned it naturally into an online vigil of sorts. It's not online anymore, of course.

[Young Drachma]

Though I guess I wonder how that would feel/be for loved ones to have out there? I mean, it's the last tangible thing that you might have had that they created themselves. I know that when my grandfather died and then when my grandmother died the following year (and they weren't yet 60) when I was in HS, my mom wanted to keep the voice mail he recorded for as long as she could and didn't finally get rid of it until we sold their house and that was only because the phone company told her it couldn't be retrieved.

[Logan]

My input on this thread will be very simple. I'm more interested in reading other's thoughts than participating in a back-and-forth.

I went to a very large university (Rutgers) that is spread out over a fairly large area, but the main campus I was on (College Ave) is surely much smaller than VT's campus. I don't believe for a second, that if god forbid this ever happened there, that the school, police, whatever could have come close to locking everyone up and keeping everyone safe. It's a logistical nightmare.

My point is...stop criticizing, because there is no chance in hell any school of a decent size would be able to handle this. Feel free to debate what missteps probably took place, what should have been done differently...but there is just no way all these correct moves could have been implemented that would have avoided all this.

[Drake]

I work for a major American university. If I hear gunshots in my building, I don't wait for the university to tell me what to do to protect myself. If I hear a report of violence on campus, I don't wait for the university to tell me how to respond.

My question is: why are these college-aged adults acting like they needed someone to tell them what to do? The concept of in loco parentis pretty much died in the 1990's.

[Oilers9911]

The media just drives me nuts in all this. Parading these kids from VT who have just been through hell, in front of a camera asking stupid questions and basically asking them to speculate who, why and so on. Leave the kids be for awhile at least.

[Drake]

CNN: How are you feeling right now?
Student: Crappy.
CNN: Can you elaborate on that?

[VPI97]

One thing i heard today in Spanish news and also read in this thread is that the VT staff used an email as way of communicating about the incident and danger and it's really weird to me so i guess i didn't understand it well.

An email for an emergency?? so if they have a fire emergency, what would they do? send a regular mail or publish it on the next day newspapers? I can't think on an email in my top ten fast ways of telling somebody about an emergency. Don't they have a speaker system? sound and visual alarm system? Can't at least the teachers be notified so they can lock their classrooms?

Maybe it's that students there are reading emails every 5 minutes so it was the best way of telling them, but i doubt it.
Well, students & faculty are offered mobile email access through the school-run wireless network and exchange server that covers all of campus and a large part of Blacksburg. I can't speak for all of the current students, but I know that all my relatives that have been at VT in the past few years had real-time email access. I don't think there's any question that email is an essential part of campus communication.

[Drake]

I'm actually pretty impressed that they got an e-mail out to the entire student and faculty population in two hours. When I'm tasked with sending an e-mail to everyone on campus, it usually takes the administration in RUSH! RUSH! RUSH! mode three days to get me the fully approved and vetted text of the message.

[Ksyrup]

Never let a good plug/marketing opportunity get away...


"I knew it was something way more serious than that, so I started taking the video," he said, adding that he often visited CNN.com and knew he could send his video to I-Report."

[King of New York]

I work for a major American university. If I hear gunshots in my building, I don't wait for the university to tell me what to do to protect myself. If I hear a report of violence on campus, I don't wait for the university to tell me how to respond.

My question is: why are these college-aged adults acting like they needed someone to tell them what to do? The concept of in loco parentis pretty much died in the 1990's.

The students' complaint is not, I think, that VT failed to tell them what to do once the students started to hear gunshots. It's that no general report was sent out until 9:26, and as a result, they did not have a chance to decide how to respond, because they did not know that there was anything to respond to.

[molson]

I'm actually pretty impressed that they got an e-mail out to the entire student and faculty population in two hours. When I'm tasked with sending an e-mail to everyone on campus, it usually takes the administration in RUSH! RUSH! RUSH! mode three days to get me the fully approved and vetted text of the message.

And with everyone blaming and talking liability, those emergency emails damn well better be cleared by the legal department first.

[Drake]

The students' complaint is not, I think, that VT failed to tell them what to do once the students started to hear gunshots. It's that no general report was sent out until 9:26, and as a result, they did not have a chance to decide how to respond, because they did not know that there was anything to respond to.

That's true, I guess, but given that the university didn't really know that there was anything other than a domestic dispute to respond to until the second round of shootings either, I don't think the university can be blamed. Even if they had canceled classes immediately, it's going to take a couple of hours for that information to filter out, which means that you've got a bunch of confused students milling about on campus (showing up, hearing the news, deciding whether or not to leave).

I don't have a problem with the students bitching about it. It's just part of what they need to do to start to conceptualize what happened. They're putting their lives and worldview back together after an eruption of chaos. That's normal and healthy. What won't be normal and healthy is all the finger-pointing and hand wringing that's bound to come down from a legislative body six months or a year from now.

[King of New York]

That's true, I guess, but given that the university didn't really know that there was anything other than a domestic dispute to respond to until the second round of shootings either, I don't think the university can be blamed. Even if they had canceled classes immediately, it's going to take a couple of hours for that information to filter out, which means that you've got a bunch of confused students milling about on campus (showing up, hearing the news, deciding whether or not to leave).

I don't have a problem with the students bitching about it. It's just part of what they need to do to start to conceptualize what happened. They're putting their lives and worldview back together after an eruption of chaos. That's normal and healthy. What won't be normal and healthy is all the finger-pointing and hand wringing that's bound to come down from a legislative body six months or a year from now.

I hear you, and I guess what I am saying is: I think that there are lessons to be learned here from the VT response. Learning lessons without unfairly blaming those administrators whose decisions are the basis of those lessons is the tricky part.