I'm venting and reflecting

[Eaglesfan27]

I've already talked to a few close friends IRL about this, but I feel like I need to ventilate, reflect, and perhaps hear a few good bits of advice as well. Last weekend, my wife asked me if her brother who is 18 could come live with us for the next 4 months or so since we have a few empty guest rooms. If it was any other relative of hers, I would have certainly said yes.

He's always been very disrespectful to me ever since I married her 8 years ago (well 8 in May.) He also has been a very troubled kid who has flirted with jail multiple times. He has had serious personal issues. He has stolen from his mother and father (they are divorced and he has done this in each of their places) numerous times when he was living with them. He has snuck people who have subsequently stolen from his family multiple times into their apartments/homes late at night. He has never helped his mother at all with anything she might need for him (little errands and such.) Besides being disrespectful to me, when I evacuated him with us (my wife, my mother-in-law, and my sister-in-law) from Katrina and bought them their own apartment, he stole from me. He also took a swing at me one night when we were still evacuated when he was visiting the apartment we were staying at (albeit I suspect he was intoxicated.) He has never apologized for any of the things he has done to me.

Yet, he seems to be turning his life around for at least the last few months. He has by all accounts remained sober. He has been much more cordial to be around for short periods of time such as on Thanksgiving and Christmas (but still hasn't apologized.) He has started developing a plan for turning his life around. He has enlisted in the military in the last month. However, he can't start basic for 4 months because he still needs to work on getting his GED. Also, a week ago, he decided to move out of his friend's house because there were too many temptations there for him.

That brings me back to his request to move in with me. He has other options. He could go live back with his mother, and she would welcome him back despite all of the things he has done. However, he is deadset against that. So, when I was asked last week, I said no because he has too recently been a thief, snuck friends in who I can't trust, and because he has been so disrespectful to me for so long. I felt I couldn't trust him under our roof. This has caused a disagreement between me and my wife, but she has generally been understanding of my feelings. So, he decided to go live with some friends who have always been clean and a good influence on him. They just happen to live about 10 minutes from us (about 50 minutes from his mother.)

Tonight, my wife suggested we take him out to dinner for a good meal. I agreed and we went to pick him up. I guess I should have seen this coming, but the place he is in is a dive. It's a small mobile home with a bathroom that has a toilet that is starting to fall through the floor. He is crashing in the living room, doesn't have any privacy, and it's generally run down in a number of ways. No one asked me to reconsider my decision tonight, yet, I find myself re-considering my thinking and generally feeling guilty.

[DaddyTorgo]

if it was me EF...I wouldn't feel bad. The whole stealing from you multiple times thing, AND the taking a swing at you thing...this kid is bad news. I guess it's not really your place to tell your wife that she can't love her brother and want to help him, but I think it is most certainly your place to say "not under the roof that I am a partner in paying for."

[MrBug708]

Im not sure on your finances, (I would assume you probably arent hurting as I dont suspect many doctor's are but it's just an assumption) but why not try to find him an apartment for 4 months?

[Eaglesfan27]

Im not sure on your finances, (I would assume you probably arent hurting as I dont suspect many doctor's are but it's just an assumption) but why not try to find him an apartment for 4 months?


I thought about that, but it is very hard to find apartments even now because of the effects of Katrina on the entire region. If I could find an apartment, it would certainly be a with a year long lease committment which seems wasteful.

[Schmidty]

I'm a very forgiving person for various reasons, so I would probably let him stay on a trial basis, but that's just me. I don't expect everyone to have the same feelings as me, so I guess I really don't have any good advice.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

If you do give in, decide what you absoluely cannot lose and pack it up. Make sure your wife sees it and tell her "If he steals your stuff that's fine, he's your brother."

I hope he does turn his life around, but you need more than a couple months of good behavior. He needs to PROVE himself.

[Eaglesfan27]

I hope he does turn his life around, but you need more than a couple months of good behavior. He needs to PROVE himself.


This was my first thought when I first made my decision. When I first told him of my decision, I told him that if he proved himself over time and went through his military service without any problems showing that he has really changed, that I would be glad to have him stay with us in the future for a few months if he needed to do so.

[terpkristin]

EF, regardless of what you choose, knowing you (well "knowing" but you know), I know you'll have thought it out thoroughly and done what you truly felt was best, not only for him, but for yourself and your wife. This kind of decision sucks.

I guess if it were me, I'd probably give him a chance, but lay down ground rules. You may or may not remember that for a long time, my brother was addicted to all sorts of drugs (I don't actually remember how much I've talked about it here), and for the longest time, he really looked like he was headed down a one-way street to bad things. I don't know that he ever stole from anybody, but there was a lot of other stuff going on. We tried to help him, in any way we could, but as you know, help doesn't really mean much until the person wants help, wants to change. My brother finally did want to change, and is now clean (well as far as I know, and is even trying to quit smoking). He's holding down a normal job. His wife is pregnant with a son they still want to name Otto (ugh).

It sounds to me like your brother-in-law has made definite strides towards improvement. I don't know if you would want to lay down the ground rules with just your wife (i.e. only tell her, but agree that if X happens, he'll be gone) or if you want to tell him...I mean, sometiems, telling somebody the "rules" makes them more rebellious, and I don't know if this is the way he is. But I think if it were me, I'd set some ground rules and take him in, with the understanding that if he broke them, he'd be out. From what you've said, regardless of what the decision is, it really sounds like your wife will support you (maybe she should be the one to explain the ground rules/terms to him, without you there..), and that's definitely a plus.

Good luck. I don't envy your decision, but I'm sure in the end it will be one you are comfortable with.

/tk

[Toddzilla]

AS much as I'd want to be the forgiving type and give him one more chance, that one chance could cost you everything. He has a solid track record of stealing and assault. If he were any other Joe Blow with the same history, you wouldn't think twice. I know being your brother-in-law makes him family, but you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. I can't think of a single compelling reason to say yes - even if it means you sleep on the couch for a few months, it beats coming home one day to an empty house, or worse yet, another assault.

[st.cronin]

Agree with Toddzilla.

The worst case scenario is vastly more likely than the best case scenario. And the best case scenario is just as likely if he doesn't stay with you.

[Schmidty]

The more I think about it, I probably wouldn't let him stay, simply because I have a young child living in the house.

If I didn't have a kid, it would be a much, much tougher decision for me.

[Desnudo]

Considering his age and previous history, I think you made the right decision. What would cause more tension between you and your wife, you refusing to let him stay with you, or him coming to stay and something awful happening? At 18, he still has a ways to go before I'd consider rebuilding the trust. He hasn't joined the military yet.

[JPhillips]

I'm with Schmidty on this. If I didn't have our little girl I'd probably face a very tough decision. I don't know where I'd fall, but I know my religious beliefs would make it very hard for me to say no.

For me the biggest thing is that he's now sober. If he's still seeking treatment and is faithful about it I'd probably agree. People do stupid things when they're suffering from an addiction. If he's clean AND you can have an honest discussion about his past and demand an apology and restitution, he deserves a second chance.

[sabotai]

It's a small mobile home with a bathroom that has a toilet that is starting to fall through the floor. He is crashing in the living room, doesn't have any privacy, and it's generally run down in a number of ways.

As the saying goes, "He made his own bed, now he has to sleep in it."

[Qwikshot]

Worse is if he relapses before boot camp, worse still is if he gets the boot from boot camp, he'll know that he can fall back on you (I'm thinking long term).

I would venture to think that living in that situation is going to make boot camp a whole lot nicer.

[gkb]

I'd probably let him stay, but make it clear that he would have to follow your rules or else he would be gone. No warnings, no second chances...here's the rules, obey them and you can stay. Obviously I'd clear that with the wife first and make sure she understood that if he broke any of the rules, you would be asking him to leave immediately.

I know it isn't an easy decision though, especially with his history. My wife's sister is currently living with us and has been since the beginning of the year. Although she's a partier and goes out every night, she's obeyed our rules and it hasn't been bad...I realize this isn't a fair comparison.

[Lathum]

I think it is important to keep in mind this kid was 10-18 in the timeframe that is being discussed. I made alot of mistakes when I was that age ( getting arrested, drinking underage, and stealing from my parents to name a few) and I turned out OK.

Lemme ask you this? Lets say you don't take him in and something really bad happens to him, how will you feel about it? I realize it isn't your responsibility but if this kid wants to turn his life around you could be a role model for him.

I relize he needs to earn your trust but I say give him a chance and lay some serious rules.

1. Give him a curfew you think is fair.
2. Give him a timeframe that he has to finish his GED
3. Charge him rent, if he has no job make him earn his keep.
4. No friends in your house unless you or your wife are home.
5. No locks on his door and make it VERY clear to him he is a guest and you have every right to inspect his room, bags etc... because if he has anything illeagle it is your ass, and if he does have something illeagle you will call the cops yourself.

NO SECOND CHANCES!

Make sure your wife is clear on on these rules also.

I know it is easy to turn your back on someone who has burned you and others before but it seems to me you could be his last option, if it was me I would give him the chance, but I was headed down the wrong path once spo I am probably more understanding then others.

[Swaggs]

If you don't have kids, I would let him stay, but I would definitely make him find a job and make him prove that he is working towards getting his GED (which he should be pretty committed to, since he would need it to enlist). If he has little idle time, he will be less likely to "find" trouble.

[Swaggs]

I might also consider charging him rent while he stays and, if he makes it through four months without incident, return it to him, so he'll have a little money saved up for down the road.

[Lathum]

If he has little idle time, he will be less likely to "find" trouble.


QFT

[MizzouRah]

I'd say, "no" in a heartbeat. Mean or not, I'm not sure I could trust him after all he's done... not only to the people that love him, but his disrespect towards you.

Seems to me he had a nice place to stay with his mother.

[Lathum]

dola- I would also reward him for making advances in his life depending on things he is into. It seems he doesn't have an understanding of what it means to "earn" something.

[King of New York]

You should quickly fill all the available guest rooms with presents with your wife--so many presents that there won't be room for your brother-in-law. That way, he can't possibly move in but the wife is happy.

Seriously, though, I'm with St.Cronin, Toddzilla, and the other "tough-love" posters on this one--you don't stay under my roof unless you have earned that privilege through good behavior. Taking a swing at me and never apologizing for it is an automatic disqualification in my book. I'd be willing to help out financially with rent for the guy, but that would be it.

[Daimyo]

If I didn't have a kid I would let him stay with a clear set of ground rules. Since he's your wife's brother you will never be able to escape him the rest of your life. Sounds like he's at a critical crossroads in his life, and its in your best interests to make sure he goes down the right path. If you think joining the army is the thing that will put him down that right path its probably worth it for you in the longterm to do everything you can to help him get his GED and enlist.

[Lathum]

IMO supporting him financialy is the worst you can do. He will learn ZERO values that way.

I GUARENTEE yu he hasn't apologized is because he is embarrest about it. Maybe you should ask him why he hasn't said he was sorry?

[st.cronin]

You should quickly fill all the available guest rooms with presents with your wife--so many presents that there won't be room for your brother-in-law. That way, he can't possibly move in but the wife is happy.

Seriously, though, I'm with St.Cronin, Toddzilla, and the other "tough-love" posters on this one--you don't stay under my roof unless you have earned that privilege through good behavior. Taking a swing at me and never apologizing for it is an automatic disqualification in my book. I'd be willing to help out financially with rent for the guy, but that would be it.

I should be clear that, putting myself in Doc's shoes, the way I see it is not "what is good for me (EF27)," but rather "what is good for my wife's brother."

I actually have a brother who reminds me of this guy.

[DanGarion]

I think it is important to keep in mind this kid was 10-18 in the timeframe that is being discussed. I made alot of mistakes when I was that age ( getting arrested, drinking underage, and stealing from my parents to name a few) and I turned out OK.

Lemme ask you this? Lets say you don't take him in and something really bad happens to him, how will you feel about it? I realize it isn't your responsibility but if this kid wants to turn his life around you could be a role model for him.

I relize he needs to earn your trust but I say give him a chance and lay some serious rules.

1. Give him a curfew you think is fair.
2. Give him a timeframe that he has to finish his GED
3. Charge him rent, if he has no job make him earn his keep.
4. No friends in your house unless you or your wife are home.
5. No locks on his door and make it VERY clear to him he is a guest and you have every right to inspect his room, bags etc... because if he has anything illeagle it is your ass, and if he does have something illeagle you will call the cops yourself.

NO SECOND CHANCES!

Make sure your wife is clear on on these rules also.

I know it is easy to turn your back on someone who has burned you and others before but it seems to me you could be his last option, if it was me I would give him the chance, but I was headed down the wrong path once spo I am probably more understanding then others.

If you don't have kids, I would let him stay, but I would definitely make him find a job and make him prove that he is working towards getting his GED (which he should be pretty committed to, since he would need it to enlist). If he has little idle time, he will be less likely to "find" trouble.

I might also consider charging him rent while he stays and, if he makes it through four months without incident, return it to him, so he'll have a little money saved up for down the road.


I'd suggest exactly what Swaggs and Lathum have said. And make sure he understands that you are doing this because you believe in him and want to help him change his life for the better.

[Schmidty]

As the saying goes, "He made his own bed, now he has to sleep in it."

I don't mean to offend, but I have to ask this:

Are you a (at least a bit) liberal who supports governmental help to the poor?

If yes, then your response seems pretty hypocritical. If not, then I apologize. Either way, I can respect your response.

[Lathum]

I don't mean to offend, but I have to ask this:

Are you a (at least a bit) liberal who supports governmental help to the poor?

If yes, then your response seems pretty hypocritical. If not, then I apologize. Either way, I can respect your response.

I don't really think this is a forum for a political argument, lets not disrespect the good doctor by turning this into one.

I think a better question would be didn't you ever do anything stupid when ou were 17 that you regreted?

[sabotai]

I don't mean to offend, but I have to ask this:

Are you a (at least a bit) liberal who supports governmental help to the poor?

If yes, then your response seems pretty hypocritical. If not, then I apologize. Either way, I can respect your response.

I need to start posting in politcal threads again. I'm losing my reputation as one of the hardcore libertarians around here. ;)

[Schmidty]

I don't really think this is a forum for a political argument, lets not disrespect the good doctor by turning this into one.

I think a better question would be didn't you ever do anything stupid when ou were 17 that you regreted?

I'm the last person to start a political argument, since I hate political garbage, and it's a shame that you would think so. By the way, I don't think of staunch liberalism as a simple political thing, although I admit that my lack of knowledge of anything regarding political science is wanting. Hell, a lot of my leanings are liberal, as anyone who actually paid attention knows. I was just trying to point out how people view "the big picture", but fail to apply that same thing in their own life.

Anyway, I hope that I didn't start some shit. If I did, I will delete that post, and I will ask anyone that responds to it to do the same.

[SnDvls]

I agree with the other "tough-love" posters. I have a brother who is a year older and a screw up and as much as I'd love to help him turn his life around and "let" him move in I couldn't do that to my wife and put that stress on her.

[Eaglesfan27]

One thing I keep coming back to, but realize it might be a rationalization, is that I'm not putting him out on the street. I'm not even causing him to live in that dive. His mother will gladly let him come back home, he just doesn't want to do that.

[dawgfan]

One thing I keep coming back to, but realize it might be a rationalization, is that I'm not putting him out on the street. I'm not even causing him to live in that dive. His mother will gladly let him come back home, he just doesn't want to do that.
Bingo - you're not his only better option. The 'tough love' options would be something I'd favor more if he didn't the option of living with his mom, but since he does, I can't fault your decision to not let him live with you. I'd very likely do the same.

[Karlifornia]

Well shit, man. I didn't read through the thread. I basically just read your posts and a few following posts, so my advice may have already been given.

He lives in a living room? Sorry..I lived in a living room for quite a while. I chose that rather than having no shelter at all. With the behavior towards you that he exhibited, he should be thankful that anyone would live with him at all. If you tell him no, and his friends for whatever reason didn't let him stay with them, he would bite the bullet and move back in with mom until he got his shit together. He would not sleep under a bridge if he had the option of staying in a house relatively guilt-free. A fucked up kid choosing between living with you, and homelessness is one thing. A fucked up kid choosing between living with you and living with mom (you said mom has offered to provide a roof for him..so it's not as if he'd have to convince her). Tell him to sod off.

Sorry, Charlie. You're the exception, not the rule. I had a pretty brutal childhood, but I always treated people that deserved respect with respect. This kid doesn't have any respect for anyone.

EDIT: The fact that he's your wife's little brother obviously makes this infinitely more sensitive...so, when staring through the gun barrel that is a wife's gaze, I may fold under pressure. Best of luck....this sounds like a pretty tough call.

[oykib]

I'm somewhat leery of saying this, because I don't know you personally.

But I recall from your FTB that you feel a great amount of guilt about what happened to your mother when you were a toddler and you opened the door.

If you still suffer from that trauma-- and as a psychiatric professional you have to be more aware than anyone else could be that it wasn't your fault-- how much more will you suffer if something bad happens to your family because you let you brother-in-law into your house.

In my family we have this problem too. Trying to be a good Christian is almost always at odds with the pragmatic choice for your family. I can admit to myself that I'd have never made Apostle.

Sometimes you have to see unreasonable requests for what they are, unreasonable. He has no right to expect you to let him in. And your wife can have no reasonable expectation that you do so.

As the husband, you rightfully feel that protecting your home is your responsibility. Of course you also have a responsibility to do whatever is reasonable to keep your wife happy.

But which is greater, your responsibility to keep her and your home safe or to keep her satisfied by going beyond all reasonable expectation to help her brother out?

I think the former is much more important.

[Dutch]

If he stays in your house, you need to make certain things clear up front.

If you have expectations of him (complete his GED, get a job) make sure he's aware of that and give him a timeline. Once he is in your house, it will be EXTREMELY difficult to get him out of your house. (I've got a little experience with that...)

And stick to your guns on those up front demands. If you are being honest with him, there's really nothing he can do but agree. And when he tries to extend his stay, call him on it.

I wonder if he would be able to join the military? Maybe 3-4 years away from the crap he's created for himself might open his eyes a little.

Like I always tell the troops under me, if you can make it to 25, you'll be just fine. :)

[wade moore]

One thing I keep coming back to, but realize it might be a rationalization, is that I'm not putting him out on the street. I'm not even causing him to live in that dive. His mother will gladly let him come back home, he just doesn't want to do that.

As I was reading through this thread this is what jumped out at me.

With his history, and recent history with you - there is no way I would be open to him staying in my house unless it was under completely desperate measures. Not only does he have a roof over his head right now, he has a perfectly good 'better' option available to him - but he chooses not to take it. Without knowing his reasoning, this is a red flag to me that he hasn't quite changed yet.

And I understand that Lathum sympathises with him - and I understand why. Yes, people make mistakes. And yes, they deserve second chances. But this kid has done things over and over and has a very short time of being "turned around". Sorry, you need to earn trust back - you can't just say you're a changed man and expect people to trust you the next day.

Sorry. In this situation, I would not let him stay in my house and risk everything that I've worked so hard for, my wife's safety, my safety, etc, etc because this kid chooses to live in a dump of a trailer because he won't live with mommy.

[Dutch]

The Navy could use a replacement for AE...Shanghai his ass. :)

[Uncle Briggs]

(What I'm about to say here applies in Illinois. Rules may be different where you are. However, Illinois is not a big tenant's rights state (no rent control, for instance), so this is probably the norm, and really the whole US is pretty homogenous legally except for specific details.)

Something to consider: if you let someone move into your house, not just visit a few days, they are a tenant, just like a stranger renting from you. If circumstances do arise where you want your brother-in-law out and he says "screw you, I'm not going", you could conceivably have to evict him to get rid of him. In our state, the circumstances you describe would be enough to establish residency essentially from day one. The only way to shortcut an eviction would be if an arrest was involved, and that's a whole other can of worms I'm sure you don't want to open.

[molson]

Bingo - you're not his only better option. The 'tough love' options would be something I'd favor more if he didn't the option of living with his mom, but since he does, I can't fault your decision to not let him live with you. I'd very likely do the same.

I totally agree. When you screw up your life, your choices become limited. Why should you bend over backwards, have to keep track of valuables around the house, worry about how you're going to get him out just because he "prefers" not to live with his mother. Screw that.

[Eaglesfan27]

I've been thinking about it a lot. I think I'm going to stick to my initial reaction and not let him move in. However, I'm going to encourage my wife (and also participate, although my time is limited by my child psychiatric board prep for a June 5th test) to have him over a few nights a week for dinner. That will let him have a bit of a break from the mobile home. Also, one of us can help him with any problems he is having with his GED prep after dinner. I bought him a book last night after dinner to help him study for that, but he might have problems with some of the stuff in there.

[Atocep]

I've been thinking about it a lot. I think I'm going to stick to my initial reaction and not let him move in. However, I'm going to encourage my wife (and also participate, although my time is limited by my child psychiatric board prep for a June 5th test) to have him over a few nights a week for dinner. That will let him have a bit of a break from the mobile home. Also, one of us can help him with any problems he is having with his GED prep after dinner. I bought him a book last night after dinner to help him study for that, but he might have problems with some of the stuff in there.


Read this last night and was going to post something similar as a suggestion.

I don't know the details, of course, but him not wanting to move in with his mother may be a good thing, assuming thats close to where a lot of his temptations were. He may also feel he just needs a change.

I was going to initially suggest not lettting him move in, but trying help out in other ways. Having him over for dinner is a good start. Also, if he needs spending money have him come over on the weekend and doing some things around the house and then pay him for his time. He sounds like someone that really needs to learn that you have to earn things in life, whether it be money or respect from others.

You can't erase years of immaturity just by saying you've changed. You have to prove it. I'd let him know you're open to supporting him in any way you can, but because of past history you just can't have him living under your roof right now. If he really is trying to change offering him some help will help him feel that the work he's going to have to do in order to regain trust and repair relationships is worthwhile. Completely turning your back on him could do a lot of damage.

[Logan]

Late to the party but glad to see you're sticking with your gut. If his current situation was so bad, he'd be living with his mother.