Rawk Or Not: Nirvana

[Karlifornia]

Let me preface this by saying...the question is not one of whether or not the band or performer in jeopardy enitrely extolls the virtures of rock and roll music in its own subgenre, but rather if this band performer extolls the virtues of music in general in your mind.

This has been hiatus on a while, because I simply forgot about it. However, without much further ado, I give Nirvana up to the chopping block:

Unless you have either just turned 15 years old, or disassociated yourself from any music past 1990, you know the story of Nirvana. A three-man fusion of punk and metal which came to be known as grunge. They didn't invent the genre, but they did in fact bring the genre to the forefront of music in the early 90's. This band still seems successful when it comes to polarizing music fans. Was the group a revolutionary icon, or a fortunate by-product of timing?


(Full disclosure: Nirvana was the band that got me out of rap music and into rock music as a teenager [yes, I know I was way late to the trend party], my first handle on this message board was a name of a Nirvana song, and I had many a post during the dying Sideline/newborn Sportplanet days defending the band which bordered on blind faith.)

[Lorena]

Absofuckinglutely!!

Entertain us... acting stupid

[Lorena]

hello hello hello

[Groundhog]

Meh. When they first hit I was in to them, but to say they have not aged well would be an understatement. It was more about the style and image than the music.

[bulletsponge]

Weird Al is better

[DeToxRox]

Never was sold on Nirvana. Dave Grohl was unquestionably the most talented guy in that band and his stuff with the Foo Fighters and Probot blow anything Nirvana did out of the water.

Nirvana wasn't even the third best band from Seattle during that time period as Alice in Chains, Mudhoney and Soundgarden were all better.

If Cobain weren't so mentally unstable the band would've not been the mainstream hit they were. Some call it genius, I call it luck.

[King of New York]

Double meh. They were well suited to the early 1990s, but now they sound insufferably self-indulgent to me.

[Kodos]

Cobain was a whiny, self-pitying, talentless hack.

I like the Foo Fighters to some degree.

[MrBigglesworth]

I don't listen to much of their 'plugged' stuff anymore, but their unplugged album is my favorite album of all time.

[Logan]

I don't listen to much of their 'plugged' stuff anymore, but their unplugged album is my favorite album of all time.

". It's not even close.

[DaddyTorgo]

this better be a fucking landslide. There's no doubt

[DaddyTorgo]

no doubt alice n chains was more talented, unfortunately Staley couldn't keep it together long enough to challenge Cobain. Soundgarden I enjoy...Mudhoney I was never really sold on. But that may also be a byproduct of being on the east coast, where the exposure to a smaller band such as them was much more limited versus the more commercially successful guys

[chesapeake]

Timing is always important in show biz -- just ask Smashing Pumpkins, who got buried to a certain extent when Nevermind came out. Cobain's bloody suicide also is a factor.

But mostly, they remain influential in modern music because they rocked.

their unplugged album is my favorite album of all time.

That cd is one of my top 5 as well. Removing the raging guitars allows the underlying musicality of the band to be heard more clearly.

I always thought it ironic that Pearl Jam, in my opinion the weakest band to come out of the Seattle music scene of the early 90s, was the one that lasted.

[Ksyrup]

I'd probably have to vote Rawk even though my interest in Nirvana, and grunge as a whole, was extremely fleeting. I was over Nirvana and Pearl Jam before Cobain died - hell, before In Utero came out. The only album from that time period that has had any lasting effect on me was Badmotorfinger. Jesus Christ Pose is my favorite grunge song ever, and that's probably because it's as close to a metal song as it gets. Even AiC hasn't really aged well for me, which is surprising since they were one of the few grunge bands who even attempted some sort of harmony vocals.

I haven't listened to any of those albums, outside of BMF, in at least 8-10 years. Maybe once or twice I've pulled out Ten or Facelift/Dirt in the past decade. All this is ironic given that my favorite band is arguably responsible (at least partially) for inspiring the grunge era (drop-D tuning, etc.).

[Ksyrup]

I don't listen to much of their 'plugged' stuff anymore, but their unplugged album is my favorite album of all time.

As bad as Cobain's vocals are, I can't stomach to listen to him on the unplugged album. It just highlights how bad he sings that much more. The only one worse than him was Billy Corgan.

[Ksyrup]

BTW, I guess I should have apologized in advance for ruining this discussion.

[NoMyths]

Questions this obvious are great for helping to weed out the opinions of folks who clearly shouldn't be trusted to hold any. :)

(rawk!)

[path12]

I was in my late twenties and an avid clubgoer during the early nineties. I saw Pearl Jam when they were Mookie Blaylock; AiC, Soundgarden, Mudhoney, and Nirvana in small club situations. Yeah, I'm old.

Nirvana. Without a doubt. AiC got close at times, but nobody could capture a crowd like Cobain back then.

[Ksyrup]

Nirvana kinda snuck up on me. I knew of PJ because I followed Mother Love Bone - I remeber having the Mookie Blalock demos on cassette and still have the cassingle for the first PJ single with the Beatles cover song on it (it's been so long since I've listened to it that I don't even remember what it is!). And of course, Soundgarden was the most popular of those bands and pre-dated them all (Ultramega OK was up for a Grammy one year, I believe), so I was listening to them before AiC was even formed. But I'll admit I never heard of Nirvana until the SLTS video. I remember seeing it on Headbanger's Ball and 120 Minutes, plus a bunch of times over 1 weekend, and the next week, it was like everyone and their mother had the CD.

[molson]

Nirvana. Without a doubt. AiC got close at times, but nobody could capture a crowd like Cobain back then.

Ya, this is key to the "Rawk or not" debate. When people start critiquing Cobain's lyrics, it's kind of funny. It's all about preference, and Nirvana was what they were. You were either into them or you weren't.

[path12]

Nirvana kinda snuck up on me. I knew of PJ because I followed Mother Love Bone - I remeber having the Mookie Blalock demos on cassette and still have the cassingle for the first PJ single with the Beatles cover song on it (it's been so long since I've listened to it that I don't even remember what it is!). And of course, Soundgarden was the most popular of those bands and pre-dated them all (Ultramega OK was up for a Grammy one year, I believe), so I was listening to them before AiC was even formed. But I'll admit I never heard of Nirvana until the SLTS video. I remember seeing it on Headbanger's Ball and 120 Minutes, plus a bunch of times over 1 weekend, and the next week, it was like everyone and their mother had the CD.

When SLTS came out, I was listening to the local alternative station and they played it like five times in a row. It was just a sea change as to what had come before. I had heard the song a couple of times before that at shows, but it was still kind of evolving to the recorded version.

[Kodos]

Questions this obvious are great for helping to weed out the opinions of folks who clearly shouldn't be trusted to hold any. :)

(rawk!)

Happy to be among the untrusted!

[NoMyths]

Happy to be among the untrusted!

weed weed weed

[timmynausea]

I haven't really listened to Nirvana in like 10+ years. Looking back, though, I think my favorite bands/artists have all had really distinct, intricate melodic sensibilities, like Elliott Smith and Nirvana on the serious end and Tenacious D and They Might be Giants on the more lighthearted end. You can hear any of those and place it almost immediately just by the melody. Really that is where the Beatles talents lied as well, they all got better as musicians as they went along, but all their early hits were more about developing a unique melodic sensibility than anything else.

I think that is what seperates Nirvana, though. They could be catchy without sounding sappy and be abrasive without devolving into pure noise. I think that is more important than whether Kurt Cobain was any good at guitar or etc. The fact that people love the unplugged stuff is kind of a testament to that. It wasn't just about the "grunge" sound or whatever.

[Young Drachma]

Ya, this is key to the "Rawk or not" debate. When people start critiquing Cobain's lyrics, it's kind of funny. It's all about preference, and Nirvana was what they were. You were either into them or you weren't.

NIRVANA WAS WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE! - Dennis Green

[Young Drachma]

I haven't really listened to Nirvana in like 10+ years. Looking back, though, I think my favorite bands/artists have all had really distinct, intricate melodic sensibilities, like Elliott Smith and Nirvana on the serious end and Tenacious D and They Might be Giants on the more lighthearted end. You can hear any of those and place it almost immediately just by the melody. Really that is where the Beatles talents lied as well, they all got better as musicians as they went along, but all their early hits were more about developing a unique melodic sensibility than anything else.

I think that is what seperates Nirvana, though. They could be catchy without sounding sappy and be abrasive without devolving into pure noise. I think that is more important than whether Kurt Cobain was any good at guitar or etc. The fact that people love the unplugged stuff is kind of a testament to that. It wasn't just about the "grunge" sound or whatever.

QFT

[Icy]

Well i liked them, but I value what they did to the popular music genre way more than what i do their talent. They found the perfect mix of pop with more heavier stuff, attracting fans of both genres.

At least in Spain, we rock/metal/punk was not as popular as in USA, the Nevermind album opened the young people minds a lot towards more heavy and electric music. It includes me too, i was in my early twenties and tons of new Spanish rock bands were born around me, it also made me to buy my first guitar and to fund the band i ended playing in for over 10 years.

It was imho the golden era of rock music in Spain. Every bar had live concerts on weekends, with young bands playing rock, metal, punk or the new grunge. Most of the disco or pop places converted to grunge music, the biggest radio stations played all the USA bands that were never listened before outside small niche radio stations. Those were great days for the music in Spain.

Maybe I glorify it more because those I was a young guy who discovered heavy music and guitar playing, and it became a big part of my life until a year ago when my band dissolved. Thanks to the grunge explosion i had the chance to play in a lot of different sites with my band, being probably the best years of my life.

Sadly now it all is over, electronic and crap popular music are back everywhere in Spain, along with American Idol clones where some wannabes singing songs composed by old guys who are so afraid of innovation. The heavy/rock music genre is totally dead in Spain and I can't listen to it anymore in bars or when we go out.

Damn, i'm melancholic now, thanks Nirvana and all those great bands from the late 80's and 90's for that great decade.

[Pyser]

i dont think this band ages well. they started strong, but i just cant listen to any of their stuff anymore.

[Fidatelo]

Nirvana definately rocked. As I've grown older I'm more apt to listen to their unplugged stuff (including some of the unreleased gems like Do Re Mi and They Hung Him On A Cross), but their 'plugged' albums are fantastic when I'm in the mood to crank up the jams.

[JPhillips]

Anyone who votes no should have their dick taken away.

[Ksyrup]

Anyone who votes no should have their dick taken away.

I'm pretty sure this position is inconsistent with the positions you've taken in other threads on this board.

[JasonC23]

In Utero is my favorite album of all time.

[sabotai]

It took me awhile to get into Nirvana. I like SLTS, but it was more "eh...it's a'ight.". Come As You Are, Lithium, Heart-Shaped Box...I just never really got into the songs that became popular so I never really listened to the CDs (this was back when you had to buy it to hear any of the songs not on the radio ;) ). AiC and Soundgarden, on the other hand, I became a pretty big fan of (took a bit with Soundgarden, since I thought Black Hole Sun was terrible). Not to mention, when Cobain blew his brains out, I saw what was coming...a saturation of people who "have always been Nirvana fans and this was the saddest thing ever". I got pretty sick of it.

Then they released From The Middy Banks of the Wishkah that had live versions of songs that never made it to "single" status. A friend of mine had it and I listened to it and was blown away by the songs I had never heard of. I started listening to their music pretty regularly after that. Now I don't even think of songs like SLTS when I think about Nirvana, I think of Aneurysm, School, About A Girl, Drain You, Blew, Breed, Spank Thru to name a half dozen.

So in short, RAWKS!

[dawgfan]

This is as good a place as any for this:

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Kurt Cobain is spinning in his grave...

[JPhillips]

I'm pretty sure this position is inconsistent with the positions you've taken in other threads on this board.

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Off with their dicks I say!

[Izulde]

O-VER-RA-TED! *CLAPCLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP*

[DanGarion]

When I look back at it today, they are one of the most overrated bands in the history of music...

[Maple Leafs]

I'm as much in the "over-rated" camp as anyone, but anybody who votes 'not' here is just trying too hard.

[Subby]

I don't really put a whole lot of stock in other folks' opinions of music, but I will say that I have started listening to (and enjoying) Nirvana again after having put them away for most of this decade...

[Kodos]

I'm as much in the "over-rated" camp as anyone, but anybody who votes 'not' here is just trying too hard.

They suck.

That wasn't hard at all.

[Ksyrup]

For some reason, I still feel burnt out on them and most of the grunge bands, despite being pretty well insulated from them for at least 10 years. Not sure why. My only guess is that most of these bands fall somewhere in between the styles I like now - they're too heavy to be considered pop/rock and the vocals aren't good enough for that style, but they're not heavy enough for me to enjoy them as hard rock/metal, either.

[DeToxRox]

Not only did Nirvana suck but had Cobain's suicide been recorderd, it would've been their best song.

[Ksyrup]

Not only did Nirvana suck but had Cobain's suicide been recorderd, it would've been their best song.

Not quite as good as SOD's cover of Purple Haze.

[st.cronin]

I'm as much in the "over-rated" camp as anyone, but anybody who votes 'not' here is just trying too hard.

This is my feeling. Cobain was annoying, but that was one of the better rhythm sections of the 90s.

Also, the Unplugged album absolutely sucked. If I was a music critic, it would've gotten an F minus.

[molson]

When I look back at it today, they are one of the most overrated bands in the history of music...

I don't get this kind of thing in terms of music. It's not like they're ranked in some kind of AP poll from which success is judged.

Tons of people liked them, and still do. Thus, the "they suck" crowd is clearly incorrect, since they, as an entertainment act, entertained tons of people.

Blanket statements on the quality of any specific music are annoying, especially when people are so passionate about it. "X is the greatest song ever, everyone that thinks differently is wrong". Well, if song X sounds like a nails on a chalkboard to me, I ain't gonna listen to it no matter how "quality" it is.

[Kodos]

I don't get this kind of thing in terms of music. It's not like they're ranked in some kind of AP poll from which success is judged.

Tons of people liked them, and still do. Thus, the "they suck" crowd is clearly incorrect, since they, as an entertainment act, entertained tons of people.

Blanket statements on the quality of any specific music are annoying, especially when people are so passionate about it. "X is the greatest song ever, everyone that thinks differently is wrong". Well, if song X sounds like a nails on a chalkboard to me, I ain't gonna listen to it no matter how "quality" it is.

So Ace Of Base didn't suck? "The Sign" was quite popular.

[Logan]

All that she wants is another bay-be.

[Grammaticus]

Oh yeah they rocked. Teen Spirit and all that stuff were great songs, but then I went out and got Bleach, then I found out how much they really rocked.

If songs like Negative Creep and Love Buzz don't get you amped, then you just need to move along.

I only wish there were more bands today that rocked half, no wait, one tenth as good. Everyone talks about the obvious elements of metal and punk that Nirvana emanated. But they also had that soulful bluesy touch.

Now, I have to admit that my favorite out of that genre we are calling grunge is probably AIC, but I am a guitar man and Cantrell is by far the best guitarist from the genre and likely to come of age in the 90's. That's right, he puts Tom Morello to shame.

[EagleFan]

Not a huge fan but I would say they ROCKed, not sure about this whole "rawk" thing though.

[DanGarion]

I don't get this kind of thing in terms of music. It's not like they're ranked in some kind of AP poll from which success is judged.

Tons of people liked them, and still do. Thus, the "they suck" crowd is clearly incorrect, since they, as an entertainment act, entertained tons of people.

Blanket statements on the quality of any specific music are annoying, especially when people are so passionate about it. "X is the greatest song ever, everyone that thinks differently is wrong". Well, if song X sounds like a nails on a chalkboard to me, I ain't gonna listen to it no matter how "quality" it is.
My comment said, looking back I now consider them overrated. That would imply that at one time I did not. My tastes has changed as I've learned to appreciate good music and thus my views on some bands I had liked have changed. Have you never changed your mind about something? I could name hundreds of bands that at one time entertained tons of people.

Milli Vanilli
M.C. Hammer
Vanilla Ice
Marky Mark

[Ksyrup]

I could name hundreds of bands that at one time entertained tons of people.

Milli Vanilli
M.C. Hammer
Vanilla Ice
Marky Mark

None of those are bands. ;)

[Kodos]

Girl, you know it's true.

[RendeR]

Someone else mentioned the timing issue. If Nirvna doesn't come around at the exact timeframe that they did they'd just be another no name indie band that the vast majority of the music universe never heard of.

So based on THAT, they're severely overrated.

Not to mention that I think Cobain's songs are complete tripe.

[Fidatelo]

Someone else mentioned the timing issue. If Nirvna doesn't come around at the exact timeframe that they did they'd just be another no name indie band that the vast majority of the music universe never heard of.

This seems like a weak argument. You're telling me that there wasn't likely some awesome metal indie band banging away in tiny little clubs all through the 90's, whilst a decade earlier any freak with a can of hairspray and a guitar could get on MTV?

Beck recently made a comment in an article that focused on his folk roots, where he said that he basically started out playing all folk music, but as he grew as a musician he realised that it was also important to be "of the time". I think this is a huge part of music, it has a context that cannot just be tossed away with statements like the one above.

[JasonC23]

Milli Vanilli
M.C. Hammer
Vanilla Ice
Marky Mark

Ladies and gentlemen, the next 4 entries in the Rawk Or Not polling...

And for the record:

-
- Depends; are we to consider the music and the pants, or just the music?
- I don't know, he rapped with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles...
- With or without the Funky Bunch?

[dawgfan]

Someone else mentioned the timing issue. If Nirvna doesn't come around at the exact timeframe that they did they'd just be another no name indie band that the vast majority of the music universe never heard of.

So based on THAT, they're severely overrated.
Except that context is something to consider - art doesn't happen in a vacuum. Yeah, maybe Cobain would've written the same kinds of songs if he'd come around 5 years earlier or 5 years later, but the combination of timing with the quality of the material is what made them explode on the music scene.

Not to mention that I think Cobain's songs are complete tripe.
You may think that, but many don't. Nirvana isn't revered by many simply because of what they stood for or their impact on the music scene - they were also a damn good band with great songs.

Taste is subjective, and many in this thread either never liked Nirvana or were more casual fans who find their interest in Nirvana's music fading with time. For many though, the songs and the performances are timeless. That's not to say that I don't still feel a lot of association when I hear "Smells Like Teen Spirit" to the period of time when it was released and what it meant, but it also holds up as a song outside of that context, as do most of their songs.

And the Unplugged record - man, that one never gets old for me. The performances cast a new light on many of their songs, and his choices and delivery of covers was fantastic - "The Man Who Sold the World" and "Where Did You Sleep Last Night?" still send shivers up my spine.

To each his own, but Nirvana was a great band cut tragically short in my book.

And there's no question they rocked.