The Miami Dolphins Fans Draft Day Support Thread [Archive]

Leonidas

04-29-2007, 01:53 AM

I believe Miami drafted so badly yesterday that we Dolphin fans need a thread all to ourselves to try and help ourselves cope with the devastation. I could be suffering PTSD right now. Dare I even bring up the carnage and discuss it?

First round, Ginn. Does anything else need to be said that already hasn't? I'm certainly not a Brady Quinn fan, but he would have been a much better pick. Or how about Okoye, Willis, Carreck? Their front 7 ain't getting any younger and I'd have been very happy if they had taken any one of those guys. And to rub salt in the wound, Rice was still available when they picked in the second round as was QB Edwards with their second pick in the second. They could have drafted Okoye in the first, Rice and Edwards in the second, and gotten a little of everything they really need. Instead they got an injured kick returner who suffers on pass routes, a QB who was rated by nobody but them that highly, and a center nobody has heard of.

Third round they go out and get Lorenzo Booker. Isn't this guy Travis Minor Junior? OK, maybe not as good as Minor. Other than he's quick Booker hasn't shown me much of anything. They could have gotten Pittman, not sure why he's still available going into round 4. He's just as quick as Booker, does a just as good a job catching passes out of the backfield, and is bigger and stronger.

So to summarize, we have the best kick returner in the draft, a decent, though not overwhelming QB selection, a center, and a 3rd down only type RB. We could have had a dominat defender, an excellent route runner, another QB of roughly the same quality as the guy we got, and a RB who can play on downs other than those you run right before you punt, which I suspect Miami will be doing a lot of, and yeah, they need a punter too.

Chief Rum

04-29-2007, 02:26 AM

Don't mean to threadjack, but I was surprised to see Pittman last to the second day, too. I watched him two or three times this past seaosn, and he really impressed me with his speed and game-changing ability. I'm no draftnik so I never read up to see why he would be rated low enough to still be around, but he looked as good to me in college as Deshaun Foster did at UCLA (which for me is high praise).

Turd Ferguson

04-29-2007, 02:28 AM

I understand how you feel, and maybe I'm being overly-optimistic, but I don't think the 1st day was that terrible.

First, the Ted Ginn, Jr. selection. Was it a reach? Yes. No doubt about that. Was it a catastrophic selection? No, not at all. I think bigger reaches were made today by others (i.e., SD-Craig Davis, Philly-Kevin Kolb, Tenn-Michael Griffin/Chris Henry). While I would have loved Okoye or Willis, it was never going to happen...neither was Quinn. From what I've read, Miami scouted Quinn more then any other team. They worked him out numerous times. Terry Shea, Miami's QB coach, personally assisted Quinn in preparation for the College All-Star games (Senior Bowl, I think). Cam Cameron has shown that he knows what he is doing with QB's (Brees and Rivers). Obviously, they saw some (many???) things that they didn't like. I think we should have a little faith in his plan. Okoye would have been interesting, but he's immature and I find it telling that his former college coach, Petrino, passed on him. Willis, too, has great potential, but I think the $20 mil given to Joey Porter prevented this from happening.

Back to Ginn. Ginn is a game-breaking talent. Like I've said before, he's not going to catch 6-8-10 balls per game. However, he has a rare deep talent and return speed that I'm not sure the Dolphins have ever had on any roster in their history. Of course, his potential success does depend on his health. However, his foot injury from the BCS Championship has been blown out of proportion and he'll be fine when camps open. So while Ginn needs to stay healthy and work on his route running, I think he can be a very effective deep threat as well as game-changing return man (in the same mold as Devin Hester).

As for the remainder of the picks:

Beck: I'm not sure why people are so down on him. He's an intelligent, athletic (4.77-40), and mature QB with a great attitude. People complain he's old, but in truth, he's only 25. Unlike Quinn, Beck is a very accurate passer. While he doesn't have the strongest arm in the draft, he did have the 2nd fastest velocity of any QB at the combine. I suggest watching some of his film as I was pretty impressed by his presence and his play-making abilities especially in BYU's last second victory over Utah. I think he'll be a solid QB. I liked him over Stanton, who has major mechanics issues and Edwards, who despite the NFL "measurables," has several issues regarding his durability.

Satele: Plays C and G, versatile and quick. I would have loved a tackle here, but realistically, he was the best OL available. The only thing that sucked was C R. Kalil from USC came off the board one spot earlier. Still, I like Satele and think he'll be solid.

Booker: He's actually the one pick that I didn't like. While I agree with Izulde that he's a good change of pace back, I'm not sure I'd have taken him here. I think either CB McCauley or Hughes (CB) from Cali would have been better selections here. And, as you mentioned, if we had to go RB, Pittman was the BPA for that position. Personally, I would have been happier with Michael Bush with Louisville here, even with the injury issues. Still Booker has undeniable natural talent. He was very highly-touted coming out of HS, but could never seem to put it all together at FSU. He had sparks of brilliance, but never truly did what he was capable of. I think with some talent around him (FSU has been terrible for years), Booker could be a nice 3rd down back.

I'd like to see an offensive tackle, cornerback and a DT/DE tomorrow...

DaddyTorgo

04-29-2007, 02:39 AM

calling Ginn "devin hester jr." is being overly kind i fear.

I feel comfortable saying i doubt he'll have the same effect

Turd Ferguson

04-29-2007, 02:57 AM

I'm not calling him "Devin Hester, Jr." Actually, I think he could be better. What I meant to say was that he is a similar talent.

Hester had 4.43 speed coming out, and 6 KO/PR TD's in college. Counting the BCS Champ., I think Ginn had 7. He's also a burner. In addition to this, Ginn caught nearly 60 passes last year, for almost 800 yards and 9 TD's. I think he has as much, if not much more potential then Devin Hester.

BYU 14

04-29-2007, 04:42 AM

Beck's Arm strength is much better than people think and it's really funny that it keeps coming up. I was talking to CSU's Secondary coach it yesterday and he said the only QB he has Coached against that has a better NFL Arm than Beck is Rothlisberger.

He has real good pocket presence, escapability and underrated athleticism, plus a really good head for the game....Dolphin fans will be much happier with him than they would have been with Quinn.

Leonidas

04-29-2007, 04:50 AM

Beck is probably the pick I liked best for Miami. Still, I wonder if he's so much better than Edwards who they could have snagged at 2-30. To me between Kalb, Stanton, Beck, and Edwards you could flip a coin to figure out who is the best one. I'm going to presume that Cameron and Mueller saw something in Beck they really liked and they set their whole draft day strategy around this pick. And the Booker pick is the one I too like the least. Travis Minor II, nothing more. I was never really impressed with Minor to begin with. I completely forgot about Bush as well. And they will rue ignoring defense as the current cast is too old to ever see a Super Bowl by the time the rebuilt offense comes of age.

QuikSand

04-29-2007, 05:22 AM

I had been hearing they were in love with Beck, and I think it showed. Had no idea the Ginn pick was coming... but I'm trying to cling to the perspective that it was just the regrettably confluence of the two (Quinn falling and looking like a no-brainer pick for MIA, and then taking Ginn as a reach there instead) made the whole thing look like a shame.

If MIA had traded down to maybe slot 15 or 16 (or even better worked out the Dallas deal with the Browns) and had ended up with one of the highly regarded players in this year's draft, as well as the QB they really wanted in Beck, then I would have had no real problael with skipping Quinn at all. I have mixed feeling about him regardless.

As for Ginn - I am an OSU fan as well as Miami fan, so I'm pretty much compelled to root for him to work out. I don't like these comments about "his family" being such a big driving force in the pick, though -- they didn't draft Ted Ginn, Sr. to go out and play for them. "Good character" will only get you so many punt return touchdowns. This guy is far from being an NFL receiver -- I hope he turns out to be a useful weapon, but I would have been much happier yesterday with a trade-down for better value (or even to get Ginn later, if they were that sold).

rowech

04-29-2007, 06:24 AM

With all due-respect, I think Ginn will be an ultra-bust in the NFL. He won't go over the middle and his hands aren't that great. OSU started putting 2 men back on punts just in case he fumbled them.

miami_fan

04-29-2007, 08:44 AM

Ted Ginn Jr. is not the problem. Ted Ginn at #9 is the problem. Is he that once in a lifetime player that you just have to have no matter what? No. Is he the best available player at a position of major need? No. When I watched the Dolphins play last year, I did not see KR/PR/WR as the #1 problem on that team. Looking at the way other teams used the draft to their advantage makes the pick look even worse. If the team had traded down, picked up some extra picks, and picked Ginn, I would have had no complaints. What if someone else picks him before the Dolphins got a chance to pick again? That would suck but the team has enough holes that they still would have been able to get a solid player to help the team in the first round plus the extra pick or picks later on. WR is the one position that had depth in this draft. Is Ted Ginn Jr. THAT much better than Meachem? Jarrett? Smith?

I like the pick of Beck. Like I said before, I am not convinced that Brady Quinn is a franchise QB who justifies getting picked in the high 1st round. If Beck plays as well as I saw him play in limited game action last year, I will be happy. No problem with Satele. The O-line needs help. If he is the best OL available and can play multiple positions, how can you complain? The Booker pick again has me scratching my head. I would have gone with Pittman as well.

Icy

04-29-2007, 09:06 AM

Ted Ginn Jr. is not the problem. Ted Ginn at #9 is the problem. Is he that once in a lifetime player that you just have to have no matter what? No. Is he the best available player at a position of major need? No. If the team had traded down, picked up some extra picks, and picked Ginn, I would have had no complaints.

Totally agree with you, a waste of #9, i would have traded down or picked another player.

Big Fo

04-29-2007, 09:15 AM

If Miami hadn't taken him at #9, where would Ginn have fallen? Maybe somewhere in the 15-20 range? This pick pissed me off so much, I'm in agreement with everyone saying we should have traded down.

Toddzilla

04-29-2007, 09:22 AM

ARGH - the 2 biggest needs on this team far and away are the O-Line and QB. I think the Dolphins were thrown into a stupor when both the best OL prospects were already drafted - didn't every single mock draft have Levi Brown still on the board at #9?

Anyway, with need #1 no longer addressable with the #9 pick, there was still a franchise QB sitting there, and they blew it.

And what OL did they draft? A *center* from a run-and-shoot school. UGH. Add to that a 3rd-down running back?

Just a terrible terrible day 1 for my Fins.

miami_fan

04-29-2007, 09:34 AM

The good news is since he comes from a "quality family" and since Cam has known them for 10 years, he will sign a cap friendly deal and be in camp on time. Right? Right?

bulletsponge

04-29-2007, 10:09 AM

Izulde

04-29-2007, 10:37 AM

So maybe Beck isn't that bad, though I still have my doubts. But if Cam can develop him, fine.

But Ginn, Jr. *still* pisses me off. Why draft someone who can't catch the ball when every one of our receivers already drops passes left and right except for Chambers?

Or if they absolutely *had* to have Desmond Howard, they could've at least traded down as others have said.

But I still wish we'd have gotten Jarrett, especially since he was, you know, actually there in Round 2, but I knew that wasn't going to happen after DH2K7.

BYU 14

04-29-2007, 10:41 AM

im not a Fin fan, but i will chime in on something you said. neither Quinn or Russell are franchise QBs

Completely agree here.....

mrsimperless

04-29-2007, 10:44 AM

I am happy with the Colts getting Gonzalez at 32. I wouldn't trade him straight up for Ginn.

Izulde

04-29-2007, 10:47 AM

I think Soliai's good value for a 4th rounder and he'll be able to eat up space in the middle of the line, being a big ol boy and all.

Kodos

04-29-2007, 10:48 AM

I wanted the Dolphins to do something to convince me they were still my team yesterday. They failed in a big way. I could see passing on Quinn, but the Ginn pick is worse than my own pick of Bubba Raymond!

Kodos

04-29-2007, 10:51 AM

They should have kept Welker. He is much more valuable than Ginn. Hell, he even kicks field goals...

stevew

04-29-2007, 10:56 AM

At many points during the offseason Ginn was considered a lock for the top 10in various mocks. Several mocks had him in the top 5 througout the college season. I think he'll be a dynamic player in the pros, hopefully for the Dolphins sake it will be more as a receiver than as a special teamer. If he does his full combine workouts(and wasn't freak injured), there is a good chance that he would not have been thought of as a "reach."

Johnny93g

04-29-2007, 11:57 AM

As a huge Notre Dame fan, i was crushed when we didnt chose Quinn. I suppose the rest of the picks were ok, but I will never be able to fully accept Ted Ginn. I hate football right now!!!!

Turd Ferguson

04-29-2007, 12:15 PM

For all those who question Ginn for whatever reason: If the Fins could not get proper value to move down, who would you have them pick at 9 instead? I'm NOT saying Ginn was the right pick at 9, I wanted Okoye/Willis/Trade down there as well...but if they had to stay at 9, who would you select?

Also...
I wanted the Dolphins to do something to convince me they were still my team yesterday. They failed in a big way. I could see passing on Quinn, but the Ginn pick is worse than my own pick of Bubba Raymond!

I've read countless threads where all you do is constantly whine about the Fins not doing "what it takes" to get you back on their good side. Why don't you spare us the suspense and let us know exactly what the organization has to do in order to please you. I'm sure they are listening.

tucker rocky

04-29-2007, 12:26 PM

Not to bring this thread down, but I can remember when Marino was drafted, and fans were wondering, "Who the heck is this guy?" We all know Marino had the stats but no SB wins.

Maybe Beck will change that around, maybe Miami of the '80s will return to glory.

'Fin fans may complain now, but give these guys a chance, they may surprise in a few months, and maybe for future years to come.

Izulde

04-29-2007, 12:50 PM

If they stayed at #9, Okoye no question, then pick up Jarrett in the 2nd round. The quarterback could've waited until next season.

SFL Cat

04-29-2007, 01:18 PM

I'm a Cowboys fan, but living in South Florida I do follow the Dolphins. I doubt Quinn would have made anyone forget about Dan Marino. However, love or hate Notre Dame, no one can deny that year in and out, they usually play one of the toughest schedules in college football. Just based on the calibre of competition faced, Quinn is the clear pick over BYU's Beck. I have no doubts that Ginn would have been available for Miami in the second round if they really wanted him.

For Cameron to basically tell the fans, "yeah we drafted a kick returner in the first round", was ... shocking.

Poli

04-29-2007, 01:22 PM

I've got the phone right here beside me. I'm still hoping that Cam does the smart thing and takes me today. I've got a lot of value to add to the team.

Kodos

04-29-2007, 01:59 PM

I've read countless threads where all you do is constantly whine about the Fins not doing "what it takes" to get you back on their good side. Why don't you spare us the suspense and let us know exactly what the organization has to do in order to please you. I'm sure they are listening.

I guess you must be satisfied with how great the Dolphins have been since Shula and Marino left. Good news! More mediocrity is coming!

TazFTW

04-29-2007, 02:30 PM

<TABLE id=section cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=player vAlign=top><TD width=70 rowSpan=2>http://images.nfl.com/images/draft/2007/mugs/mauia_reagan.jpg</TD><TD colSpan=2>Reagan Mauia</TD></TR><TR class=bio vAlign=top><TD width="50%">Height: 6-0
Weight: 348

</TD><TD class=bio width="50%">Position: Fullback
College: Hawaii

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Yeah baby. I was expecting some more Hawaii players being drafted today but Reagan wasn't one of them.

Izulde

04-29-2007, 02:36 PM

Yeah baby. I was expecting some more Hawaii players being drafted today but Reagan wasn't one of them.

Anything you can tell us about him?

Izulde

04-29-2007, 02:45 PM

What, one C wasn't enough? We had to go and get a second one?

Logan

04-29-2007, 02:46 PM

Reagan Mauia
Height: 6-0
Weight: 348

Position: Fullback
College: Hawaii

That can't be right, can it?

SFL Cat

04-29-2007, 02:49 PM

That be a biiiiig FB.

Turd Ferguson

04-29-2007, 03:02 PM

TazFTW

04-29-2007, 03:06 PM

That can't be right, can it?

'tis true. :) Well, he was listed at 298 his Senior year. 348 was his Junior weight.

Reagan was a DT when he came to Hawaii. In 2005, June Jones decided to try him out at RB. In the Run N Shoot you do not have a typical running game. The RB is more responsible for pass protection. Mauia was the backup to Nate Ilaoa (248 lbs.) and was mostly used as a sixth lineman in the backfield. He has caught some balls (of the dump off/shovel pass variety) and is hard to stop when he gets going but didn't protect the ball well. He is very aggressive and looks for contact, has had several unsportsmanlike contact penalties for being "too" aggressive. I could see him as FB, blocking TE, jumbo package OL in the NFL.

Logan

04-29-2007, 03:08 PM

Lol, Ginn would NOT have been available in the 2nd round. It's likely the Titans would have selected him at 19 had he been available.

I wouldn't have gone as far as to say there were "no doubts" he would be there in the 2nd round, but if you asked me which of the following had better odds: "Ginn goes #9" or "Ginn falls out of the 1st round," I would have thrown my money on the latter.

SFL Cat

04-29-2007, 06:29 PM

Of course, its academic now. However, Ginn's stock had been falling. Some draft publications had him listed as low as the sixth or seventh best receiver in the draft.

In taking a look at how everyone else drafted between Miami's first and second pick: Just about every draft pub I've seen had Bowe (1.23) and Meachem (1.27) ranked ahead of Ginn. Now whether either San Diego (Craig Davis - 1.30) or Indy (Gonzalez - 1.32) might have taken Ginn instead is open to debate. However if not, he would have still been there at 2.9 for Miami.

Whether he's there or not, the fact still remains, Ginn was a comical reach at 1.9.

Pyser

04-29-2007, 06:44 PM

i dont follow the draft really at all, but id like to point out i called ginn to mia at 9 in the solecismic draft challenge.

that is all.

TazFTW

04-29-2007, 07:42 PM

Apparently, Miami has added another Hawaii Warrior by signing UDFA OT Tala Esera. I believe pro scouts have him moving to guard.

Izulde

04-29-2007, 10:41 PM

So that's two C/G and a G. Oi.

SunDevil

04-30-2007, 12:22 AM

Wait,

So the former head coach of Indiana who had how many good seasons as OC in San Diego is now the head coach paired with Randy Mueller the same guy who ESPN hired as their Ex-GM talking head and between the two of them you guys are surprised by their draft?

Izulde

04-30-2007, 01:40 AM

Except maybe one or two picks, the Dolphins draft felt like jbmagic was our GM.

Vinatieri for Prez

04-30-2007, 02:13 AM

This just in. Ginn is out 2-4 months and may miss some or all of training camp. Straight from Ginn's mouth.

Izulde

04-30-2007, 02:49 AM

This just in. Ginn is out 2-4 months and may miss some or all of training camp. Straight from Ginn's mouth.

Where's the brick wall emoticon when we need it?

:( :mad: :rolleyes:

Leonidas

04-30-2007, 02:50 AM

I think they somewhat redeemed themselves yesterday. Smith is a good athlete who has a nose for the ball. If anything he should be a good special teams guy. Fields looks like a very good punter. Was an All-American as a sophomore. Big strong kid who may be a Reggie Roby type punter. And I suspect Wright just may be one of the great sleepers in the 7th round. All Big 12 at DE is no slouch for a college achievement. Morminho mystifies me as it appears most folks felt he'd go undrafted. The writeups I'm seeing say he's small, underpowered, but a great pass blocker.

It's obvious what Miami was doing. They are going for speed and finesse. Ginn is the ultimate speed guy this season. May be the fastest guy drafted into the NFL since Randy Moss came into the league. Beck is a good athlete with a strong arm. They got a bruiser in Satele, I'm really warming to him the more I read about him. Booker is a speed guy. Morminho is a pass blocker. Smith and Wright are athletes on defense.

It's almost like Cameron is trying to either recreate the Dolphins of the 80's or build Indianapolis South. Clearly this draft was planned and not the product of bumbling desperation. Almost everyone picked fits a theme. I think we can safely guess what a Cam Cameron run team is going to look like. It's going to be fast, it's not going to overpower anybody. And I suspect it will have lots of provocative formations meant to confuse the defense. I'm still bemoaning the Booker pick. I never liked him in college. I've seen Pittman in person and he was just as good as a true freshman as Booker ever was in college. He ran the same 4.4 at the combine Booker ran, doesn't shy away from contact in the trenches, has proven to be a very good receiver. Why oh why did we take Travis Minor the 2nd? He's a one dimensional guy.

Izulde

04-30-2007, 03:10 AM

Speed gets eaten alive in shitty weather.

Remember all those Buffalo snow losses back in the 80s? :mad:

Leonidas

04-30-2007, 03:10 AM

This just in. Ginn is out 2-4 months and may miss some or all of training camp. Straight from Ginn's mouth.
Here's what Ginn is really saying, and it's a bit more vague than a 2-4 month claim.

http://www.miamiherald.com/616/story/91194.html

The Dolphins are not concerned about Ted Ginn Jr.'s midfoot sprain that has nagged him since January and will keep him out of the team's minicamp.

But questions about the injury remain.

ESPN.com reported Sunday that Ginn Jr. would be in a boot for six weeks and then require a six-week rehabilitation.

The Dolphins denied that report and Ginn Jr. was in dress shoes when he met with the media Sunday morning.

But Ginn Jr., Miami's first-round pick (ninth overall), was vague about his status beyond missing the minicamp.

''It's up to the training staff and we're going to put the plan together,'' Ginn Jr. said when asked if he would be ready for the start of training camp in July. ``I hope I will be able to be there Day 1.''

Pressed for a guarantee, Ginn Jr. couldn't go further.

''I don't know,'' he said. ``It's whatever the training staff says.''

The Dolphins are confident Ginn Jr. will be ready for training camp.

''At no point in time, did we feel he wouldn't be ready for training camp,'' coach Cam Cameron said.

stevew

04-30-2007, 06:26 AM

Ginn can't practice with the team until like June anyways, so it may not have any effect anyways. Unless the rules have changed for tOSU players this season and the quarter system is different there.

Ksyrup

04-30-2007, 07:11 AM

As someone who watched Lorenzo Booker on a weekly basis, let me just say that FSU's offense was such a mess for his 4 years (not to mention Bobby's preference for switching RBs every other series) that I'm not sure anyone's got an accurate read on how good or bad he is. Personally, I think he could be more Warrick Dunn than Travis Minor. Look at Leon Washington - 4th round draft pick, did even less in college than Booker, and he's already had a solid impact in the NFL. That said, Booker isn't needed as the every-down back and probably will be used like Minor, so from that standpoint, the comparison is probably valid. And, he might have gone too early in the draft as well, I don't know. Still, I'll be rooting for him, if for no other reason than because I feel sorry for him that FSU completely screwed up what looked to be a great college career.

bulletsponge

04-30-2007, 07:53 AM

Where's the brick wall emoticon when we need it?

:( :mad: :rolleyes:

http://www.smileyhut.com/angry/wallbash.gifhttp://www.smileyhut.com/angry/wallbash_blue.gifhttp://www.smileyhut.com/angry/wallbash_green.gifhttp://www.smileyhut.com/angry/wallbash_red.gif

hmm funny, ive delivered for the fins fans better than thier team did :p

QuikSand

04-30-2007, 08:04 AM

One thing that I worry about with the Dolphins is that with public screwups like (but not limited to) this draft day implosion... they run the risk of dropping from the fairly short list of elite NFL franchises. I suspect this reputation is partially a function of the team's deep history (perfect season, multiple titles, HOFers, Shula, and on to Marino) that they are still part of that company. Candidly, it's also probably partially a function of weather adn nightlife opportunities in Miami. Even recently, we still hear of high profile players saying that Miami is on their short list of places to go play -- and I think it was the franchise reputation that made Miami attractive to guys like Jimmy Johnson and Nick Saban, regardless of how those forays worked out. That's just a nice thing to have, through by itself it isn't worth a single win.

I worry that over time, this might really erode. The flailing around over coaching in recent years, the ownership situation overall, the mess with Ricky Williams, the series of freakshow oddities they have fielded at QB since Marino's departure, and now the added (and seemingly warranted) draft day ridicule all seem to add up to a franchise that just doesn't have that aura any more. Maybe it was lost a long time ago, and they have just been coasting on old rep for years... but you really don't want to be perceived as another Arizona (no offense, hopefully they are finally escaping this knock), a franchise that doesn't have a good sense of direction and is a place to play only for money, not for acclaim.

So... in part, I don't really worry so much that they missed out on Amobi Okoye, or that they might have snagged a couple more draft picks and still have gotten Ginn (if they wanted him that terribly) -- it's more that they are increasingly showing the signs of a franchise in distress. I hope the new regime can get things going in the right direction... but right at the moment, there's a lot of stuff like this to worry about, it seems.

Ksyrup

04-30-2007, 08:08 AM

In other words, Saban left the NFL equivalent of Alabama for the real thing?

Rizon

04-30-2007, 08:10 AM

Why oh why did we take Travis Minor the 2nd? He's a one dimensional guy.

Because we took Yatil Green in the 1st.

Toddzilla

04-30-2007, 08:15 AM

I'm not sure why the Dolphins are considered "elite" anyway. Basically, they caught lightning in a bottle in the early 70's and that's it. They went to the Super Bowl only 6 years after their inaugural season and lost to the Cowboys, then ran off a perfect season, the next year they go to their third SB in a row and win their second. And that's it.

Since 1973, that franchise has done nothing of significance. They won a few conference championships and lost a few Super Bowls, but absolutely nothing that would categorize them as an "elite" franchise. There is nothing in the current ownership's resume that would indicate that these Miami Dolphins will be mediocre and worse for now until they sell the team. They're the Detroit Lions with good weather.

bulletsponge

04-30-2007, 08:27 AM

They're the Detroit Lions with good weather.

theyre the Arizona Cardinals of the west coast?

Ksyrup

04-30-2007, 08:33 AM

I don't know my NFL history all that well, but as far as I can recall, they were always a consistent winner, weren't they? For the better part of 20-25 years, you could pencil them in for 8-12 wins a year, right? Combined with the perfect season, Shula, and Marino, that continuity obviously made them an elite team. And really, even with Johnson and Wannestadt, it wasn't until Wanny's last year that they fell under .500. I think what started to do them in before that, though, were the couple of blowout playoff losses and that playoff game with the Pats where the D knew the audibles from the week before and the Dolphins game plan for the playoff game looked like a joke. That was back-to-back with the Jaguars blowout game. And then Wanny's teams had a knack for not showing up in the playoffs, either.

Passacaglia

04-30-2007, 09:31 AM

So maybe Beck isn't that bad, though I still have my doubts. But if Cam can develop him, fine.

Just like he developed Randle-El in college? :p

Kodos

04-30-2007, 09:45 AM

Having witnessed the Cameron years as an IU fan, he doesn't fill me with confidence. Sorry Turd Ferd.

Vinatieri for Prez

04-30-2007, 11:20 AM

Here's what Ginn is really saying, and it's a bit more vague than a 2-4 month claim.

http://www.miamiherald.com/616/story/91194.html

Well, if training camp starts at the end of July and Ginn can't commit to being ready for it, and that is 3 months away, I think saying he is out 2-4 months is pretty accurate. He's in a boot for a month and will need at least a month to rehab.

I expect Fins management to be all optimistic after the beating they are taking, but if a player himself is doubtful, I will put more stock in that.

JPhillips

04-30-2007, 12:02 PM

Don't feel bad Dolphins fans. The SportingNews gives you an A+ for the draft.

No, really they did.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=202062

Julio Riddols

04-30-2007, 12:09 PM

Thats almost enough for me to cancel my subscription. And it's hilarious.

Ksyrup

04-30-2007, 12:13 PM

I think the Sporting News grades drafts the way FOF does. If your team sucks and you address gaping holes, you get a good grade. From the standpoint that the Dolphins got 3 guys who will probably start immediately (or at least could, depending on what they do with the rookie QB), and they have little or nothing at those positions currently on the roster, the draft was a success. But apparently SN didn't take into account where Ginn was drafted, who else they could have taken, or what they could have done if they traded down.

stevew

04-30-2007, 12:17 PM

Thats almost enough for me to cancel my FREE subscription. And it's hilarious.

Fixed, and I agree with you 100%

Logan

04-30-2007, 12:19 PM

Don't feel bad Dolphins fans. The SportingNews gives you an A+ for the draft.

No, really they did.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=202062

Weren't they the ones who were saying Quinn was a 3rd rounder? Kinda hard to not fellate the team that passes on him in that case.

Dr. Sak

04-30-2007, 12:20 PM

You're kidding right? Right? ND plays a mediocre schedule. They got blown out by the 3 top opponents and played 3-4 more okay teams plus the service academies. ND's tough schedule is a fraud and they've recently discontinued playing BC who was one of their toughest opponents.

QFT

When's the last time ND has won a bowl game? Early 90s. Heck I think in the past two years they've beaten 1 team that ended the year Ranked in the top 25.

Izulde

04-30-2007, 12:24 PM

I want some of whatever the Sporting News is smoking.

DolphinFan1

04-30-2007, 12:31 PM

I think the Dolphins did great in their draft.

I am being sarcastic of course.

I wanted QUINN.

Kodos

04-30-2007, 01:07 PM

I was really torn on Quinn. There is a lot of hatred because of the Notre Dame aspect, but I also have doubts about him as a player. But he did seem like a logical player to take there. Better than Ginn, for sure.

Passacaglia

04-30-2007, 01:16 PM

Anyway, how do you cancel your free subscription? I'm sick of getting them. I thought it was supposed to last only a year, but it still goes on. I've even moved and not told them about it, and they still found me.

Bee

04-30-2007, 01:38 PM

I have no problems with them passing on Quinn especially considering there were a few other QBs that many had rated very close to Quinn that were likely to be available in the second round, but picking Ginn at number 9 was a horrible pick IMO.

Leonidas

04-30-2007, 02:06 PM

Dr. Z stunned me today with how much he liked the Phins draft.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/04/29/draft.report.card/3.html

They lose their premier return man, Wes Welker, to the Patriots, so they need a returner, and Ted Ginn, Jr.'s application has been accepted. My point is that if they'd have held onto Welker in the first place, they wouldn't have needed a return man, but I'm sure that kind of simplistic logic can be shot full of holes. Yep, Ginn is a wideout of note, too, and second rounder Samson Satele is a nice, agile center. But if what I think could happen actually happens, then this will be a terrific draft, much more serious than its listed grade. I'm looking at a two-word possibility. John Beck. Quarterback. Gym rat, competitor, Jeff Garcia type with a better arm. So if he's so great, why'd he last until a quarter of the way down the second round? Beats me. I predict nothing. I'm just mentioning that you never know, as they say on blind dates.
I think I can see his point. The Phins are gambling on Beck and built the whole draft around this guy. If he's the real deal, then in 5-10 years people could be saying Cameron outsmarted the whole NFL. Of course if it fails, then he's Dave Wannstedt part deux.

rkmsuf

04-30-2007, 02:10 PM

Dr. Z stunned me today with how much he liked the Phins draft.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/04/29/draft.report.card/3.html

I think I can see his point. The Phins are gambling on Beck and built the whole draft around this guy. If he's the real deal, then in 5-10 years people could be saying Cameron outsmarted the whole NFL. Of course if it fails, then he's Dave Wannstedt part deux.

Which is a little back asswards to some degree if you are Cameron. Take Quinn and if Quinn fails it's mostly Quinn's fault and gamble on finding a return guy later. Unless of course they believe Quinn is a donkey in which case they better hope he doesn't light it up in Cleveland.

Bee

04-30-2007, 02:10 PM

If they built their whole draft around Beck, it was a helluva gamble because a lot of people had him going before the Dolphins picked in the second round.

Ksyrup

04-30-2007, 02:12 PM

Even if Ginn, Beck, Satele, and Booker all pan out, it still doesn't make sense for them to take Ginn where they did. Unless they tried to trade out of that spot and were unsuccessful in finding a trade partner, there is no excuse. I can't imagine another team taking him anywhere in the top 15, maybe 20, right?

Of course, if the draft works out so well that all they did was overpay for a guy who turned out pretty good, then I'm sure they'll take that.

stevew

04-30-2007, 02:14 PM

Which is a little back asswards to some degree if you are Cameron. Take Quinn and if Quinn fails it's mostly Quinn's fault and gamble on finding a return guy later. Unless of course they believe Quinn is a donkey in which case they better hope he doesn't light it up in Cleveland.

Quinn has to play Pittsburgh and Baltimore 4 times a year. Those are usually both around top 10 defenses. And also the Bengals aren't bad either. So that's 6 games a year that he'll have his work cut out for him. He may be a great, but I think it's much more likely that he struggles, especially when the browns have a questionable running game, and defense still.

rkmsuf

04-30-2007, 02:16 PM

Quinn has to play Pittsburgh and Baltimore 4 times a year. Those are usually both around top 10 defenses. And also the Bengals aren't bad either. So that's 6 games a year that he'll have his work cut out for him. He may be a great, but I think it's much more likely that he struggles, especially when the browns have a questionable running game, and defense still.

I'm thinking long term. Cleveland has pretty much the worst talent in the league right now. If he may be great the Dolphins should have taken him.

Butter

04-30-2007, 02:21 PM

And also the Bengals aren't bad either.

Did you watch any NFL football last year?

SFL Cat

04-30-2007, 02:23 PM

Doesn't Beck have to do the Mormon two-year missionary thing before he plays football? If so, that makes him late 20s, nearly 30 before he plays.

rkmsuf

04-30-2007, 02:25 PM

Doesn't Beck have to do the Mormon two-year missionary thing before he plays football? If so, that makes him late 20s, nearly 30 before he plays.

Culpecker can fill in.

stevew

04-30-2007, 02:26 PM

Did you watch any NFL football last year?

Cincy held Jailmal in check 2 times....I don't see why it wouldn't continue. Your guys have enough talent to be a good defense, I just think it needs to be coached up more.

stevew

04-30-2007, 02:26 PM

Doesn't Beck have to do the Mormon two-year missionary thing before he plays football? If so, that makes him late 20s, nearly 30 before he plays.

At 26 already, I would assume he already did it.

stevew

04-30-2007, 02:28 PM

yeah....
from wiki...

He served a mission for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Lisbon, Portugal from 2000 through 2002

Butter

04-30-2007, 02:28 PM

Your guys have enough talent to be a good defense, I just think it needs to be coached up more.

Marvin needs to put all those guys on a much shorter leash.

rkmsuf

04-30-2007, 02:29 PM

Marvin needs to put all those guys on a much shorter leash.

Marvin is not all that good of a coach.

stevew

04-30-2007, 02:37 PM

Marvin is not all that good of a coach.

I tend to disagree....I mean I never thought in my lifetime someone would coach up the Bengals to 3 8-8 seasons and an 11-5 one in a 4 year period.

Butter

04-30-2007, 02:38 PM

stevew

04-30-2007, 02:40 PM

Anybody who can coach for Mike Brown and make the Bengals a winner is doing pretty good. There are a lot of areas where Marvin can improve, and I think the whole area is just so happy that the Bengals are contending, that they're willing to cut Marvin a little slack. But the day is coming where 8-8 and 9-7 won't be good enough... hell, it may even be this year.

They would be silly to fire him, i dunno who signed off on all their jackass players, if it was Lewis, then yah, he's a bit of a hack. But the team is relevant again, which is a nice start.

rkmsuf

04-30-2007, 02:41 PM

I tend to disagree....I mean I never thought in my lifetime someone would coach up the Bengals to 3 8-8 seasons and an 11-5 one in a 4 year period.

To me the Bengals have zero chance of going to a superbowl with marvin at the helm. I think they play to their talent level and that's it. Bengals have some very good individual parts...better than their talent has been but to me Marvin isn't a guy to pull the whole program together the way it could be.

Butter

04-30-2007, 02:42 PM

They would be silly to fire him, i dunno who signed off on all their jackass players, if it was Lewis, then yah, he's a bit of a hack. But the team is relevant again, which is a nice start.

The smart money says it was mostly Mike Brown's call on taking all the later round players with character issues. It's just another way for him to try to sign high quality talent cheaply. He just never counted on there being such a backlash when these guys backfired on him over and over again.

rkmsuf

04-30-2007, 02:44 PM

They would be silly to fire him, i dunno who signed off on all their jackass players, if it was Lewis, then yah, he's a bit of a hack. But the team is relevant again, which is a nice start.

Which is the point. Marvin is fine to get you to relevant. I see regression soon to that 9-7. They be decent because they have Palmer.

It's like the Celtics and Doc Rivers. Should they get Oden it's time to get rid of the babysitter/caretaker and get a real coach to start focussing on the x and o's and excution.

SFL Cat

04-30-2007, 02:50 PM

Heeeeyyyyy!!!

Start your own Bangles fan support thread. :)

Vinatieri for Prez

04-30-2007, 03:00 PM

Lewis has been helpled in his coaching/gameplan role by Palmer, Johnson, and Johnson. That's a triumvirate the Bengals hadn't seen in a long long time. I've seen him outcoached many times. I think he can motivate though.

Rizon

04-30-2007, 08:37 PM

Don't feel bad Dolphins fans. The SportingNews gives you an A+ for the draft.

No, really they did.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=202062

SWERVE

JPhillips

04-30-2007, 10:21 PM

Who do you get that's better for the Bengals than Marvin? No point in firing him if you can't get a better replacement. I still can't believe how quick people are to can Marvin when he's the main reason the team is competitive. It's like the nineties didn't fucking happen.

Julio Riddols

05-01-2007, 02:51 AM

Fixed, and I agree with you 100%

How the hell did you know I had a free subscription with The Sporting News?

*cue strange music*

:eek:

Julio Riddols

05-01-2007, 03:30 AM

To me the Bengals have zero chance of going to a superbowl with marvin at the helm. I think they play to their talent level and that's it. Bengals have some very good individual parts...better than their talent has been but to me Marvin isn't a guy to pull the whole program together the way it could be.

I think this comes from Marvin loosening the reins the past couple years.. He had the main nuts and bolts of the team together, but he was sort of trying to ease up on the guys because by then they knew the drill, knew what was expected of them, etc. Last year, he really just let them play, and I think he realized he needs to be more of a hard ass like he was in the first couple years with the team, which is what I would expect this season. Don't forget last season they played an extremely hard schedule, had lots of injuries and problems at LB which seems to be the crux of a typical Marvin Lewis defense, and had an obliterated Offensive line most of the year as well, including Center, which is a key spot no matter how little they get paid. Take that into account, then look at games they should have won, Tampa Bay was taken away from them by a roughing the passer call on a sack for god's sake. The game against Pittsburgh at the end of the year they should have won also, but for some god-awful reason, Graham shanks the kick from well inside 40 yards. The game against Denver had a similar end result, with a botched extra point that would have tied the game. Thats 3 games, 2 that should have been won, one that should have been 50/50 at the very least. So youre looking at a 10-6/11-5 record against a schedule that includes the Steelers twice, the Ravens twice, the Patriots, the Colts, the Chiefs, the Panthers, the Saints, the Chargers, the Falcons and the Broncos. Thats 12 games against teams who were expected to contend or did contend last season. The only games Cinci "should have" won, they won in dominating fashion, with a 27-10 win over the Raiders, and 30-0 and 34-17 wins over the Browns. The game against Tampa was most assuredly an off day, and they still win that game without the roughing the passer sack.

I think last year was about bad luck more than anything, and you can't coach against luck. Facing one of the toughest schedules in the NFL and losing half your offensive line for most of the year while dealing with similar issues at linebacker will make it very hard to make the playoffs, but Cinci still could have easily been 10-6, and even 11-5 without the bad luck in those 3 games that essentially killed their season.

So I won't even think of buying into the "Marvin isn't the coach to take them all the way" hype, because for the past 2 seasons, Cincinnati has shown they can play with anyone. Now they just need to figure out that you don't stop Peyton Manning by sitting back in a zone all day, and they'll be primed to make a serious run this year, which I fully expect them to do.

Its a huge deal what he has done in Cincinnati, to even have that team doing anything positive after the 90's is incredible to me. The team stopped drafting guys with character issues, as evidenced by this draft, and I think Chris Henry has learned his lesson, as he isn't appealing his suspension or anything, and he hasn't complained once about his punishment. He knows he deserved it, and he is going to do his time and come back mid-season to a team in the thick of the title hunt. The other players who had anything to do with off the field issues are gone from the team for the most part, and Odell Thurman is getting his last chance this season. If he messes up again, he will be gone for sure.

I can guarantee you last season was an aberration, and you will see an entirely different Bengals team this year, barring catastrophic injury. Personally, I hope Marvin keeps his job for as long as Cowher did in Pittsburgh, or longer. I don't want anyone else coaching this team.

Julio Riddols

05-01-2007, 03:36 AM

Dola: ...And now back to your regularly scheduled Dolphins support group. :P

Vinatieri for Prez

05-01-2007, 03:14 PM

I'll simply add that on the Cincy thing that every team has injuries and every team has bad breaks, or crucial missed plays (and I have no doubt Cincy got a few go their way that gave them some of their actual wins). You are what you are. Now, you can go back to regularly scheduled programming.

Kodos

05-01-2007, 03:23 PM

The Bengals are who we thought they were! Convicts!

Uncle Briggs

05-01-2007, 08:08 PM

Vinatieri for Prez

05-02-2007, 12:32 AM

TazFTW

05-02-2007, 03:01 AM

The Dolphins released Marcus Vick, so you've got that going for you.

Desmond

05-02-2007, 04:24 AM

How the hell did you know I had a free subscription with The Sporting News?

*cue strange music*

:eek:

Everyone who has a subscription to The Sporting News has a free subscription to The Sporting News.

My cat has been getting them for 3 years now. Even started getting Blender and FHM sent to him, which irritated him greatly.

AlexB

05-02-2007, 06:38 AM

HaHa. That article's hilarious. Of course, their "secret" plan worked. Because they totally overvalued both players. There's a reason they were both there for their picks. It wasn't luck or good strategy, believe me.

This quote is the best: "I know for a fact two teams were ready to take [Ginn] if we passed," including Houston at #10. Yeah sure. And they fell for it - morons.

Anyways, passing on Quinn I don't believe was that big a mistake. If you don't like the guy, that's fine. But taking Ginn where they did was the boneheaded pick. Sorry, Mueller (likes to pat himself on the back) Ginn wasn't going 10, or 11, or 12, or 13, or 14 . . .

I watched the highlights of the 1st round on our recap programme, and the guy reporting on possible trades, etc at the time of the Houston pick reported that the Texans were planning on Ginn, and as he was no longer available were exploring trade options. So I don't think it's completely fair to say this is pure revisionism.

However, as for whether it's a godd/bad/indifferent move I have no idea, knowing nothing about Ginn other than he broke his ankle celebrating a TD in the Bowl game - this leads me to suspect he might be half decent but not all that bright.

stevew

05-02-2007, 07:22 AM

How the hell did you know I had a free subscription with The Sporting News?

*cue strange music*

:eek:

I'd be shocked if anyone pays for that rag.

Kodos

05-02-2007, 09:17 AM

knowing nothing about Ginn other than he broke his ankle celebrating a TD in the Bowl game

That was such an enjoyable outcome until the Fins decided to draft him...

flere-imsaho

05-02-2007, 09:25 AM

I'd be shocked if anyone pays for that rag.

I get it free because I subscribe to their Fantasy Source service (which I think is pretty decent) for the FF season. As a mag, it works out well for me each week as reading material for those times on the plane (takeoff & landing) when I can't use electronics.

QuikSand

05-02-2007, 09:58 AM

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/football/pro/dolphins/sfl-sphyde01may01,0,1303082.column?coll=sfla-dolphins-front

According to this article, draft weekend went pretty much step-for-step as planned by Cameron. Included is a tidbit that Houston was set to take Ginn with the next pick, making a trade down impossible.

I have completely reversed course now.

On draft day, I was shocked and appalled when they picked Ginn, and joined the crowd of "you suck."

Now... it's quite clear that they simply evaluated players differently than the so-called experts, and they got exactly what they wanted. To me, that's pretty different than not knowing what they are doing. Honestly, justy because you like a certain guyy more or less than Mel Kiper or a particular scxouting service doesn't mean that you're an idiot by itself. It might work out that way, but the consensus pick is not always the best pick.

So, I'm officially shifting from anger to accountability. These two guys now define the new brass. I'll move into wait-and-see mode.

Kodos

05-02-2007, 10:30 AM

Stop being mature! They suck!!!! ;)

rkmsuf

05-02-2007, 10:32 AM

Stop being mature! They suck!!!! ;)

Kill them all!

SFL Cat

05-02-2007, 11:25 AM

Not saying they should have picked Quinn, but Ginn at #9 was a stretch. With his injury, it's doubtful he'll be able to participate in any summer workouts. Yes, he could pay dividends in the return game, but the #9 pick should be more than a kick returner who MIGHT play some receiver.

Ksyrup

05-02-2007, 11:30 AM

My quick response to QS' post is that liking a guy and overpaying for him are two different things. I don't have an issue with the QB situation. But it seems like they're paying Ginn more than they would have had to. Maybe the Houston rumor is true, or maybe Houston put that out there to get Miami to take a guy they didn't want anyway to ensure that whoever they wanted would definitely be there. Maybe we'll never know. But the consensus is that Ginn at #9, injury or no injury, was too much to pay for him.

QuikSand

05-02-2007, 12:03 PM

I dunno.. for the "false leak" to make any sense from Houston, they would have had to know that Miami was *not* going to take the guy that all the experts said they would take with that pick (Quinn), have been worried about them taking the exact one other guy that they really wanted (Okoye), and have known that Miami was vulnerable to anxiety about the guy they purportedly wanted all along (Ginn). I find that pretty hard to fathom as the true explanation, rather than the simplest one -- that they really wanted Ginn.

As I understand it, there are multiple sources saying (after the draft) that HOU was targeting Ginn. Hard to see what they would have to gain by continuing to leak the informaiton after the draft.

Anyway... if we learned anything from HOU last year, it's that the subtleties of maximizing draft day value are not their strong suit. (Though I guess they do have a new regime in there now)

Vinatieri for Prez

05-02-2007, 02:56 PM

As I understand it, there are multiple sources saying (after the draft) that HOU was targeting Ginn. Hard to see what they would have to gain by continuing to leak the informaiton after the draft.

They would do it to add credibility to future leaks in other drafts. I mean they are not going to say "oh, we just said we were interested in Ginn as a bluff." If in fact, as it appears, the leak actually caused the Fins to jump early, Houston did a masterful job of it. Also, don't forget the leak would not just be meant for the Fins, but everyone before them, including Atlanta (who is clearly in need of WR help).

Ksyrup

05-02-2007, 03:13 PM

They would do it to add credibility to future leaks in other drafts. I mean they are not going to say "oh, we just said we were interested in Ginn as a bluff." If in fact, as it appears, the leak actually caused the Fins to jump early, Houston did a masterful job of it. Also, don't forget the leak would not just be meant for the Fins, but everyone before them, including Atlanta (who is clearly in need of WR help).

Exactly. Just like when Minnesota played everybody in the 2003 draft when they skipped their pick, they were setting up future drafts by trying to lull teams into a false sense of security. And then WHAMMO! The next draft, they picked on time and threw everyone behind them completely off their game.

Those sly bastards.

Vinatieri for Prez

05-02-2007, 03:18 PM

Exactly. Just like when Minnesota played everybody in the 2003 draft when they skipped their pick, they were setting up future drafts by trying to lull teams into a false sense of security. And then WHAMMO! The next draft, they picked on time and threw everyone behind them completely off their game.

Those sly bastards.

You, my sir, are an ass.:D

How dare you apply humor against my attempt to protect my opinion that Ginn would not have gone for several more picks, now that news is coming out that Houston would take him 10th. While I am very adept at such maneuverings, humor can sometimes break through it quite well.

So, let me put it this way. If indeed, Houston was taking Ginn 10th, then both Miami AND Houston are morons (although we already know that about Houston).